Tricky Stewart Tells T.I. The REAL Stories Behind Beyoncé, Rihanna & Mariah Carey Hits

Hey, say, what's happening, man? This is Tip Harris, host of Expeditiously. Then you know you can watch on Spotify and Spotify Premium. Guess what? Users get no commercials on my show. So pull up, check us out. This is Expeditiously. I am Tip T.I. Harris. Uh-huh. Now, the following experience is not a test. The conversations and stories expressed on this podcast are meant to be an expression of purpose and truth. This show, properly entitled Expeditiously, is a free exchange of ideas and opinions. No judgment, no preconceived beliefs, no fear. You're encouraged to share your thoughts and ask any question as long as it's done with respect. And that's through true love and respect for others that we will change the world and speak truth to power, one show at a time. Now, without further ado, this is Expeditiously. I'm Tip T.I. Harris. Hey, yo. Welcome to Expeditiously. I'm your host, Tip Harris. Today, we're joined by one of the most prolific hitmakers of our time. He's a producer, songwriter, and been behind some of the biggest songs of the past two decades, with the likes of Rihanna, Beyoncé, Mariah Carey, and more. Hit list so extensive, I'd take up all our time running through it, so let's just say this. He, uh, he has, uh, he has left. Oh, excuse me. I would take up all our time running through his list, so, you know, let's just say this. He has left an undeniable mark on music, okay? Over here, he's earned multiple Grammys, ASCAP honors, and has crafted over 25 Billboard No. 1 hits, uh, over 20 ASCAP awards, multiple Billboard honors, and a plethora of other industry awards, including the Songwriters Hall of Fame upcoming, all right? Beyond the studio, he's also committed to giving back support and initiative that empower young artists in underserved communities through music and mentorship. From chart-typing singles to meaningful work off the stage, please welcome the man behind the music, my partner, Tricky Sting. Thank you, sir. What's happening? What's up, brother? Man, ain't nothing to it. What the business is? Shit, man. Happy to be here. I made it. Hey, man. Hey, you made it like a motherfucker. You feel me? Yes, sir. Man, uh, all this time, man, you've been, you've been, you know, creating the soundtracks to our lives. You know, like, where did the, the desire to create come from? The desire to create, I think the desire to create just came from, um, loving music, right? Um, I love music a lot. And so I've spent my whole life just growing up, being in and around it. Like, in my family, like, when they say get a real job, they mean getting a music business. Like, you know, it's like, it was, I loved music personally, but didn't see myself going into it. And it was just something that over time, it just became something that I knew kind of was calling me more than I was trying to call it. Just because when you come from something, Right. My whole family does music. So when you come from. Your whole family doing music? Everybody does music. So it's like, people know me, but like Jason Weaver is my first cousin. Okay. Cooke Carell is my first cousin. Laney Stewart is my brother. Okay. Mark Stewart and Judy Stewart. And that's the second generation. But my father and my mother, my father was a classical pianist, ran music companies. My mother's a program director and choir director. My cousin, Cynthia was like the girl that was like, um, all the Gatorade commercials, like, you know, the Michael Jordan, the campaign. So you came from money. I came from, I came, I came from passion. You came from music and money. I came from, I came from a good place. You know what I'm saying? I was like, music, as you know, has ups and downs and it has ups and ups and flows to it. So from the standpoint, like I lived a life, but it was always a life like looking at it from that was always hopeful, regardless of what the situation was. It was never destitute. It was just, sometimes there might be a slight, circumstance, but it would be a slight circumstance. Everybody in life have a slight circumstance. I've been having money for a long time. I have not been without slight circumstance. I ain't got that rich, you know what I'm saying? It's, it's one of those things, but you know, everybody has a story to tell and music. If you don't have one, it'll give you one. That's right. And so, uh, but with that being said, yeah, the, the love of music I think is kind of what led me there. And then the other part of it is just, man, I like doing shit that make people feel good. And so music is a, is a, is something that I think makes people feel good when it's got the right vibe to it. And the other part is, it's like, if you're going to invest your time in something, why not invest it in something that is going to live forever and music will outlive us all. That's real. And so, so tell me, tell me, tell me where the nickname tricky come from. Tricky come from my mom. I used to play football. I really wanted to be an athlete, you know, hence my whole red zone triangle sound. Like, you know, all that, all that shit is based in. You know, my love of sports. But I used to be like, really, I was nice with it. You know, what position you play? I played quarterback, but then I didn't grow a shirt for quarterback. See, you see what happened. Everybody came back that, that year, you know, that freshman year when you're supposed to go from freshmen to sophomore and everybody went up to six, four. Yeah. I stayed the same. And that's why, you know, when that happened and I found out that happened me, I was just like, you know, I gotta, you know, I just found out that at that point in your life, what you're supposed to do, if you really want to maximize your growth spurt potential, you're supposed to take magnesium. Yeah. That wasn't going to help me. I needed to be six, five, I needed to be six, five. I need to be six, five by the summertime. Yeah. Like, so that, that wasn't going to help me, but, uh, that with that, you know, it was a blessing and a curse, but that accelerated my life that accelerated me to go, well, I know it's not this, and that's how the music became, you know, that obsession from football, being able to take that straight into music at a young age and just put everything into it, I think by the time I was like 17, 16, 17, it was like, I was in it. You play? Yeah. What'd you play? Piano drums. I play anything. If somebody don't show up though, I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like back then, if any, like, you know, back then, if it, like, if I go to the studio at that time, it's like, if you don't come, that doesn't mean nothing, you know what I'm saying? Like if, if the guitar player don't show up, I play guitar. Like I can play anything enough to write a song. Cause my biggest thing was writing songs, you know what I'm saying? And so, you know. I play, but my main instrument is drums and then my second instrument is piano. You, you started playing piano as a youngster since your father was a classic, classical pianist. He actually became a classical pianist after the fact. Like I didn't even know my father. I didn't know my father to be in music like that until, cause we, I always looked at my father as a, um, as a business guy, because by the time I got in music, he was done with music, but that's how him and my mom met. But so all the love. What I thought was just on my mom's side of the music side with her and Curtis Mayfield and Aretha Franklin and all that kind of stuff. I thought it all just came from there. But then I ended up finding out like, Oh no, like they met. Cause my parents was divorced before, like when I got here, you know what I'm saying? So I'd never lived with my pops. Like I never lived with my dad or anything like that until we lived together. And so ultimately it was just a situation where I discovered his love for music later in life because my mom's side of the family. It was really like the one that I was really, really around like that. Got it. Got it. Now you, you, you, you began telling me a little bit about, you know, your beginnings, uh, in music, your decision to come to Atlanta. Um, and you came to Atlanta from Chicago, right? No, I came to, I went to LA first. Right. And at that time I was really just trying to get to where BBD and new edition and all of them guys was making all those records. Like. And so little Silas was out there. LA and baby face was my favorite producers, Jam and Lewis. Like I was like the stuff I was listening to back in Chicago. I was just like, well, shit, they out there. You went to LA with the intention of getting in the music business. Oh, I went to find little Silas, Jr. LA Reed and baby face, particularly like, I mean, like on some, like my family. Once again, it wasn't just me, me, my brothers, my brother's wife, girlfriend at the time, Judy. And. About 10 other of us, my cousin, Sean. So 10 of y'all moved. It was more than that. It was more than 10. Yeah. It's, I mean, yeah, it was probably like 17. So you migrated. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we all had, you know, you know, we all had our girl with us and everything. You know, we, we had big dreams of, you know, those girls didn't make it. Damn. That sound like when, like when the Vikings moved from one, from one settling to the other, the girls didn't make it. No. They could not withstand the winter. You know, it was, you know, we was young. Did you find Lil Silas, baby for LA and babyface when you got there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, we weren't on the outside looking in before that. Like I said, we were in the music family. So before that, Lul had started coming to Chicago. Okay. He had started coming late. Aaron Hall. Um, first project, like the, with the, um, I can't remember what the name of the album was, but Aaron Hall, Shantae Moore, my brother Laney really had a lot of shit going on. Um, coming out of Chicago. So he was kind of like this prodigy had everybody flying there. So when we went out there, we kind of had, I didn't have, but he had an inroad, but by the time he had the inroad quite naturally, you would have, I was only 15, 15, 16 years old. So, and, and, and I didn't know about school. Tricky. Come on. I can't play football. Fuck this. I mean, listen, as soon as I couldn't play football, I never stepped in school ever again. For real? Never again. You don't have the look of a high school dropout. Oh man. - Come on. - Man, damn, that's what's the, didn't go to a community college no man you fooled the shit out of me then that's something i just learned no i i i quit high school on my 16th birthday but i but i missed like damn i missed the 81 out of 100 days anyway so it was it wasn't going anywhere for me in there my mom thought my mom i didn't quit let me just i didn't quit my mother took me out of school she said school was a waste of my time whoa that's a hell of a mom you got down yeah oh yeah i've never heard what i've never heard a parent say that before well because and i applaud the approach because sometimes that's the absolute truth yeah i mean there's a difference between that she didn't say i couldn't be i had to be educated okay going to school and being educated it's two different things so so where did the education come from after you after you withdrew from school my brothers taught me okay so i had to go to school with my brothers like every single day like i would be interning for them but my job at their production company that they was building was to go to school but i eventually got expelled from there as well you're a terrible student yeah listen the idea of you telling me what to do and the carrot not being on the other side of me playing football that was it yeah and so from that standpoint my whole life has been based on trying to get in control so nobody could tell me shit well you seem to have done a pretty good job of that you know you seem to have done a pretty good job of this so let's go back to la when you're going you're the little brother and you're traveling with you you know your family out to la you know with dreams of being in the music business what was your first opportunity that that you recall uh i mean let me think my first opportunity oh my first opportunity as i recall it was um i did immature's first album okay so no maisha uh no that's playground no that's uh that's abc oh immature immature immature was marcus houston oh i never lie yeah i will never lie yeah okay so back then so that was my first placements like in 92 right so i got my first placements in 92 and some of the stuff that i did during that time was like um remixing for bobby brown like because bobby brown was happening but it was like he was on the if it ain't good enough time like it was like after like don't be cruel and shit like that and so after that then i was like doing a lot of remixes and stuff for lul and i would just remix all his stuff and my brother laney was doing aaron hall and so damien hall was in the group guy as well and i got to be in my cousin sean because i used to have a partner like tricky and sep and we did uh damien hall album together okay and so we started working for what was you know what it was that we were chasing down i guess in the overall scheme of things the law of attraction yeah we just had a beeline straight to who we wanted to work for and really really just made it happen and that led us to shantae more which led us to all that which led us to getting proximity to la and babyface hearing us and that's what brought us to atlanta because eventually um la started hearing about these guys tricky and sep from this girl tyvi turman that lived here um that was signed to don perry and joe katz and ultimately they she was singing backgrounds for them down here and they were like yo come like we want to take a meeting they took a meeting la took a meeting with us and we moved like on the spot literally so you you so you didn't you didn't think well let's just let's continue this in la you you said well i'm going straight to atlanta i'm going straight to atlanta because have you ever been to atlanta before no but anything about it nope i never but my mom was from atlanta oh okay my mom was born in grady right so like like i knew i mean i knew about atlanta but what ended up happening was i i came here and then like jd this is like probably like 94 90 94 like like crisscross time yeah and so jd is the person that picked me up from the airport okay so that's not a bad introduction to the city yeah so he's got crisscross out uh-huh we similar in age he might be a little older than me or whatever but we're comparable i'm looking at a person my age i'm 16 and he might be 17 or maybe 18 at the time and he's got matching ferraris and matching bmws and matching three wheelers and like you know and i'm just like yeah like i was like in la nobody has that at this age like when you see somebody who's like you know like you know like you know like somebody have that in la it was like so it was between the attraction of la and face or the face records that it became and then seeing people here and the first thing that i one of the first things that happened is i came here went to the studio and went to the studio and met organized noise okay and outcasts right and so la this is what they're working at they mix and at his house like back when the studio was in la's house and so first record i hear this ain't no thing but a chicken wing you know what i'm saying we're outcasts and they in there everybody got their shirt off in the studio and i'm just like like i'm hearing records like i've never still to this day still never heard sonically sound like that like if you put that on right now you'll just be like what is that yeah and so you know that attraction of hearing stuff that was so unique yeah uh like what he was doing what jermaine was doing and then dallas was here and dallas was doing the records like aisha what about your friends like all that early tlc stuff and it just sounded like it just sounded like people who really really wanted to make it like really wanted to make it it sounded very hungry right it sounded very original and i knew new york wasn't for me but what i liked about atlanta is that even though it was small small proximity nobody was doing what the other person was doing right and even and they knew each other but everybody was like the dungeon family sounded like this and social death sounded like this and darp sounded like that and i was like i could go there and have my own sound and really what the game was in la at that time was really just sounding like what was on the chart you know what i'm saying like oh somebody did this walter affinessi did this you try to do that you know and so this gave me the ability to try to be more outside the box and once i once i got here i realized that you know you could be you could to be in atlanta is to understand that you can make it in a real way which i think you atlanta gives you enough time to think like atlanta gives you enough time to think to really decide how to be great and not you know what i'm saying like but if you if you ever heard that if you got new york or la pressure on you you don't get to think you just get to react atlanta atlanta was slow enough and small enough that at that time like i didn't have a i didn't have a hit once i got here yeah that's what i was just about to ask you yeah listening to your story i can hear from birth you've been in such such of an arm length proximity to opportunity my only question is what took you so long like you you have been around la babyface goddamn immature jd jd pick you up from the air port you you you know organ in the studio organized noise before they blew like what took you so long you think to to kind of get to a mainstream success i think it was because i wasn't original enough how do you say that because i never i think in chicago where i'm from illinois it's the gift because you don't belong to a curse i mean you don't belong to a curse right and so you don't belong to a particular sound so what comes into chicago is the best of everything so i've always just been attracted to whatever the best thing of new york was what atlanta was what the bay area was what la was but at the same time chicago didn't really have a sound like there wasn't a sound that came from being from chicago so i think it just took me a longer time to find my own personal originality so when you heard it you would be like oh i know who that is right you know what i'm saying and so it was the evolution of seeing that happen and i think what really what really triggered it for me is was like hearing like how atlanta could be so big like it was always no matter when it was authentic to atlanta it was always huge like a huge record like not like a little hit but like massive like whether it was hey y'all whether it was no scrubs whether it was you can have whatever you want whatever like whatever you like whatever you like whatever whatever you got so many songs you can fuck mine up go ahead whatever records they are they're so massive that they take over the world because i think the first part like you know whether it's looking at little john whether it's looking at polo whether it's looking at jermaine whoever it was it's like these records be big and they be massive right and that's what i like about being in atlanta and once i figured out what how i wanted to make my sound be massive then it was like all right well i got it well i think you know from what i've noted like especially when you talk about jd jd make big songs that could have been from anywhere like when you listen to shit like money ain't a thing they don't necessarily give you oh this is atlanta you know i'm saying even that's what you even welcome to atlanta don't really sound like a atlanta song for real but it was huge and it represents the city because of jd's uh representation of the city and and i think that's that's that's an amazing thing to do uh which is what you said that you were trying to do the opposite of that you were trying to develop a sound that you felt like was was tailor-made to you in this city yeah i mean not even in this city in this game in this game in this game so you didn't feel like uh okay well i need to do something that sounds like atlanta because i'm in atlanta no i needed to take into consideration what makes atlanta beautiful which is people on the dance floor hot wings yeah hot wings strip clubs people people was on the dance floor there was always a lot of love in the air so i came up in the air era of of atlanta where you just go to the hbcus and people open their car doors and play play v103 and it was people having fun so the freakney era well yeah i mean during during but uh it was just that time and it's like i always just wanted to have records that like i just try to keep my shit real like i guess like so it'll travel in a way you know what i'm saying now tell me when you are around so much uh astronomical success you know as a youngster you know i mean you watching jd you watching uh dallas you watching organized noise you're around la and babyface and you're able to absorb the moments of so much success uh did it ever get frustrating like waiting on your turn yeah yeah it definitely got frustrated because i got because i was talking about that when did it get frustrated i mean don't you get tired of seeing jd pull up in them new ferrari well that was the thing i had mine too you know you had one too yeah yeah oh okay you know yeah i mean we was all the thing about atlanta you could be successful without being successful too you know i'm saying like my optics was successful but what i'm talking about is hit making you know when the hit started rolling with the hit making you like catching up like so you say fuck this ferrari i need a number one record yeah like and i mean i was in its simplest form i was like look i'm gonna do some rap songs and that's when i went and did jt money's who that and i did four five six and one rap song of the year two years in a row okay and so that got me in and so that but even with that those records didn't go it wasn't just rap but they were big independent records yeah they meant more yeah they was independent and they went high they went number one on all the charts like not just rap it was number one r&b it was number one pops you know i'm saying so it was like the formula that i've seen atlanta stayed true to is that when it's big it's massive and so i was able to check into what that what it means to have massive massive records like you just be like shit and so my attraction to that just allows me to stay in the city and even the times that i've moved i've moved back because i was losing what it means to write a record that nobody saw coming because that's what it means to be successful in atlanta okay you can't just you can't just blend in if you're just blending in and you're the 13th version of the thing like nobody cares about that like but when you like atlanta gives you the opportunity to lead the world and all the producers that's from here that i respect we've led the world globally at one time or another that's real um so you you you also became a businessman because not only do you write produce you also uh like managed other artists or or or producers careers um who's some of the producers that you signed some of the producers that i've signed and writers that i've signed um i would say frank ocean is at the top of the list damn how you how the fuck you meet frank ocean um tab brought him to me okay you know tab that's always with me like tab has been with me he came with here with me from la and so and you let him go i didn't let him go oh you still got him i was i took a buyout you know oh okay yeah you took you know like travis right okay well i guess eventually you call it that yeah i mean you know how you know how it goes get the money you know yeah you get the money yeah and so the buyout and so um that was that was one of the main ones esther dean you know esther dean is the one that wrote a lot of the fireworks and yeah she wrote a lot of the rihanna records i think she had four maybe four number ones with rihanna um shakespeare okay uh you tell me a very interesting shakespeare story yeah the uh very interesting shakespeare shakespeare who has a illustrious career on his own um i didn't know that you know he started at your at your production company yeah shake was one of um one of our producers mine and mark's mark managed him okay he worked with us closely for a period of time um that's when he shake and shake wrote uh well he produced no scrubs which i still thank you all for today my trips to the mailbox are amazing yes for a song to still make money that much money so long yeah afterwards yeah it's incredible that's what i mean by massive yeah you see what i'm saying and so thank you for that you're welcome but no we introduced uh shake and candy ian ian burke called us up when escape broke up and i had already i had a relationship with tasha for some reason because we had just done we we had done some stuff i mean you said for some reason that shit that was crazy no because i could remember like we was doing some special project together and i had met her and rocky some gospel yeah we were doing something oh yeah chicago you for chicago no no i had met her i mean i met her maybe like three weeks before to get this call because i didn't know escape had broken up so i'm working with her now but in that three-week period i write this song called if you don't want to love me with her which the world was going crazy over which ended up being tamar's uh a record that i gave to tamar that mariah carey wanted and so that was the first time when i got a whole bunch of attention about a record so now i'm writing this i've written this song with tasha she's fresh out of escape and then ian calls me like hey the girls are working on an artist project tiny and candy and so i was like man i was like i you know me i'm always trying to help as much as i possibly can but i was like but at the same time i'm not gonna be like doing no weird shit like where it's like i'm working with her i know y'all got a problem of some sort so i was like look i can't do it but i'm working with a producer that i'm working with his name is shakespeare and he's really really dope and so they literally came in one of the very first songs if not the very first song that they did was no scrubs and then they went on to do bills bills bills and bugaboo there you go it makes me ill a bunch of records it was just a it was a serious serious uh run of records that was a hell of a alley-oop man yeah well listen nobody knew what it was at the time but i always just try to i always just try to make sure i can create you said you like sports you should have tried basketball because that was a hell of an assistant that was a no look pass like a motherfucker it worked out for everybody yeah it worked out for everybody man and you just mentioned something that i you know that that made me want to ask this question what is it like as a songwriter when you when you have a song and you got this artist that wants it but then you got another artist that wants it and you got relationships with both of them you know so how do you decide who to give the record to honestly you know what that's a that's a situation that i've had to deal with myself and that often what you mean when i make records they're kind of exclusive it's like you know so what about the mariah carey tamar thing that was early in my career okay you know what i'm saying that was super early i wanted i needed my dopamines fed i needed i needed attention and and i you know at the end of the day hey man that's so mature of you to admit that well because like you said there was i'm trying to make it i have not written a hit right this is the first time that the world is coming to me going we want that song we want that song we want that song but when it was still in the deal the deals were for the song was in the millions for for that labels like it wasn't back then if you had a song it led to a label it led to crazy opportunity so sony was offering me everything like uh and who was connected to the sony uh opportunity it was donnie aina you know i'm saying you would know which artist was connected to the sony opportunity it was this was it would be okay give this song mariah carey and we'll take tamar as a deal and two other things that we haven't seen what from you for this song for this song right and so it was it's what we call a three-put like a i mean it was a it was a song a song a uh and a two-put a deal and so but the problem was and so my goofy ass because i always try to do the right thing what you do i took the deal because what the deal was essentially was two opportunity three opportunities with the same money yeah so the money was going to be the same but they really just wanted the song and it was going to screw the artists yeah because you know they'll give you the money yeah and have no intention for the artist they'll shift the artist right and so i didn't give mariah the song i gave the song to my friend tamar and then it was the same thing when i went to dreamworks they were like we'll give you we'll give you two other puts for this but at the same time it was close to the same money so i carved it out i was like nah if y'all gonna give tamar x because that's what you really want i i didn't take any of it i was just like y'all really want her and so i gave her all of what they really wanted for that song and her singing it because tamar was the person that was singing it and she was singing like a motherfucker and so and she was like and she was like at this time she's probably 19 years old and so and she's tony braxton's sister right which wasn't wasn't fun at the time what you mean because tony was huge at the time and so being the sisters like i bet on the sisters a lot you know what i'm saying the family because i'm i'm integrated with the entire family like from the braxons going back to the braxons to tamar to everything so when we took that you ever wrote a song for tony i have which one my brother i can't remember i've done i've done about three of the albums but i can't remember we don't have a hit though oh so we don't have a hit so i don't really really remember but um we did a christmas album together okay like you know i work with the fam um but my like tamar is my dog like you know i mean like me and tamar go way way back yeah it's so take more take more cool kit it was about it was about not taking an opportunity that was really like i could have had like in that in his simplest form he's like i took 30 opportunities and turned them into 10 you know what i'm saying what that mean look because if somebody give you three acts you got that's 30 pieces of publishing real estate okay right versus 10 on this album so i took i took down and i'm trying to run a production i probably would have gave i would have gave the song to mariah that's what most people would do yeah i would have gave the song to mariah just to see where that go yeah i mean listen i mean but you hey get what this shit didn't hurt you still here yeah i mean listen it's hard but it's hard decisions but i think one of the things about coming at this from my family standpoint is i never really had to walk into a room and then try to walk every time i walk into a room i'm walking out with the same people i came with that's right most people are trying to go into a room trying to catch something else right everything that i want i walk in with you know what i'm saying and then i then we walk out and so i knew that tamar was somebody i wanted to walk in the in to the room with for a very long time from a talent standpoint and so mariah was already mariah like and and so this particular philosophy it backfired there but on the rihanna front it worked okay let's talk about that you know what i'm saying because let's talk about the time it worked well the time it worked is that rihanna was the artist the unknown artist and mary j blige was coming off of be without you and okay eight grammys and it seems like give her the record but which record was it it was umbrella oh and so mary she's at the wait a minute let's not glaze over there so you're telling us you wrote umbrella me and dream did umbrella dream wrote umbrella lyrically and i'm i wrote the music oh and dream who is my partner man has been my my childhood partner since elementary school yes uh we both from bankhead so i understand his his mindset and mentality uh how did you meet dream how did you how did you find dream that's a um i always get this story confused because i i don't i don't really know exactly but this is what i it's between javon sims rob hunter who used to work with me as one of my a and r people uh but javon was an artist development uh person and he was connected to dream in some sort of way uh and i believe he came in that way but really it didn't come to me because i didn't know him and i didn't know him it came to my brother laney so dream and laney predate dream and i right and laney had a uh had done a publishing deal i believe it was dream's very first publishing deal and signed him to a deal for a couple of years so dream was in and around but like we weren't really focused on like doing anything you know we would get together every once in a while and play around and just i'd be like damn how he hears stuff is different but he was making it look so easy and at that time writing was so hard for me i didn't know how to i didn't know how to accept how easy he was making it look so i you know i just kind of was always kind of like yeah that dude's dope and then he does very glamorous ghetto shit yeah i mean he's yeah he's he's the guy for sure yeah and so you know he ended up being signed into the building but how we connected is because he ended up being outside of that uh being outside of that deal and went and did a deal um a deal in japan where he had an opportunity to kind of see his whole vision through as a creative and he came back and he played me some stuff one day and he played me this song called karma that him and nivia had done and um i was just particularly impressed by once again that originality like that that thing of just hearing something where you go damn i didn't see that coming and he had done a whole project on her and it just kind of from that point we just kind of started building another a different type of relationship yeah because one of the very first songs that we ever wrote was umbrella so it wasn't like we didn't have this long history of writing together we just had a we've been like i would say we've been kind of like brothers for a very long time but it's not sometimes we're working together sometimes we're not working together but but it's really like at this point it's a camaraderie yeah it's just like you know like i was looking at pictures of me and my family and my mother's 81st birthday and i was like man he he looked like he looked like he's like i'm like that's family like i was like i just got now i'm like okay i got i got three brothers you know what i'm saying like and i got another brother in tab and i got another brother in kamara i've added on to my brotherhood with my real brothers okay so you met dream and uh he you know on the on the the the way to becoming family you say one of the first records you wrote was umbrella yeah and now you have to decide whether or not to give it to mary j blige who's fresh off eight grammys currently i mean she's in that mode because the time that we wrote the song she's performing at the grammys and the song that's out is be without you and so she's the biggest star on the planet arguably at that moment and we got this new girl in rihanna who we didn't really even know to be honest we didn't really know who she was how'd you get the opportunity to uh meet a a young i guess virtually undiscovered rihanna okay so one of the things about me that's maybe people know or they don't know is i only really work for labels right and so when i got a great record my instinct is not to play it for artists it's to play it for a person that is in the business of hits artists aren't always in the business of hits right and so record companies very industrialist way to say some shit man god damn fuck the artists i mean listen because artists don't pay you right i don't mean like i'm not saying it like you didn't get paid i'm not saying like i'm not saying in the sense that you're an artist what i'm saying is in the pecking order of where a producer gets where we get our money from yeah it comes from the label okay so i come at this thing from a label standpoint so how i met that artist was by calling a friend that i knew was sitting next to our friend la reed which is karen quok okay and so when i get a record like that very well i used to call her to get my chicks exactly so right and so she used to be up to me too right and so i follow the money understand me then you're gonna see a theme in this all right i'm the godfather of her child by the way okay yeah and so yeah i follow the money in the sense that karen is a facilitator she has a record a record company is looking for one thing to do with it and one thing only exactly they're not looking for your project they're they don't care about song seven or it's gonna go like this they're like what is that and i knew we thought we had a what is that type song and so the idea was to put it in the hands of the people that know what that is right and so and to recognize that and so karen was one of those people with getting her proximity like we're trying to get the song to la reed so jazzy faye heard the record mark heard the record they both sent the record and jazzy was like that trick that record because jazzy was the first person to tell me like yo that thing right there that's that's different than the other stuff you've been working on and so he catapulted the record up there my mark catapulted the record and at this time why i'm not sending the record to la is because mentally to that point i haven't made a hit and all these other guys have made all these hits so i'm like i don't know if he still thinks i can make one so i'm like send this record in to karen because she's close to him and she'll play the record without no left right energy you know what i'm saying because i needed to really Because at this point, I had done. At that time, what's the biggest record you've done? At that time, the biggest record that I've done is Still Who That, Case of the X, B2K's Uh-Huh, some stuff here and there. But the big thing that happened is that all those opportunities between there and there led me to producing Britney Spears' album. And the Britney Spears' album that I did, the single that I had didn't go. Damn. It didn't go like that. And I had the one with Madonna, her and Madonna kissed on the American Music Awards, but then this other record, Toxic, came in. And even though I was pretty much the executive producer of this album with Steve Lunt, had the most access to Britney, this is the last. It's the In The Zone album I'm referencing. This is the last real Britney album. What does that mean? I mean, before she had some mental. I don't know anything about. This is the last one where she was coming to the studio consistently making records. Like, I was showing up to the studio with Britney. Everybody has those, what do you call it, slight. What do you say? Slight issues. Everybody has slight issues, man. That's what makes good music. Yeah. And so I didn't knock it out of the park the way that I probably should have, even though that was kind of like the moment to do that. And so I was a little bit nervous about my reputation. What was the single that you had on Britney? It was called Me Against The Music. Okay. And so, and I did like probably six other songs on there too. Like five or six other songs and picked most of the other songs. So I was heavily involved in this project. And you didn't feel like you brought it home like you should have? Well, I brought it home as an executive producer because I fought for Toxic to be on there. Okay, got it. And the album did well. Oh, the album did great. So you got paid? Not as much as if I would have wrote a Toxic. That's when you. That's why you want to write the song. You don't want to be on the album. You want to write. But as an executive producer, you get points on the album too, right? Yeah, but if you're working on a Britney Spears album, a Britney Spears album is very expensive to make. So it don't recoup. Yeah, it may recoup or it's close to, but if the points, if the math doesn't get all the way lopsided, you know, they're going to play in the gray area. They're going to play in your face a little bit with those ruts. Yeah, I can dig that. You know how it go. Hey man, well, you know, you get to work with the labels. You should work with the artists. Yeah, and if that was the case, the production shit wouldn't even be signed off on. Damn. Well, okay, so now you take. So some kind of way, Umbrella gets in the hands of L.A. Reid. Karen. Karen Kwok takes Umbrella to L.A. Reid and he wants it immediately. Yeah. He immediately wants it. Now, okay, how did Mary J. Blige get it? Mary J. Blige got it because we were, we had something special. And right now we're all, we're all used to hearing what a Dream record sounds like within the industry, the people who are blessed enough to get those demos. But you don't know which way they can go all the time, right? It's like. And Dream was the one doing the demo for Umbrella. Yeah, Dream does all his own references, whether it's, you know, male or female. His voice just kind of sits in this perfect place, usually on records, which is why he gets so many features and so many people be like, no, stay on the record because people try to redo it and they can't. He a hell of a talent, man. Yeah, for sure. He a hell of a talent. For real. Absolutely. So you decided to give it to Rihanna. What played in your decision? There was a lot of people that decided to give it. It was a collective between myself, Mark, Dream. Okay. Like, we had to make a decision because we knew it was a pivotal song. Yeah. And it was her first record, right? No, no, no. The dance float. She had a. Pond the Rival. Pond the Replay. Oh, Pond the Replay. Yeah, she had the Pond the Replay. I'm fucking up everything. No, you're good. That episode, man. I done gave you ABC and Aisha and then you said Immature. But it's all right. You fucked up my songs. I'm very true. Yeah, you can have whatever you want. All right, so Pond the Replay. That was like her first song and she went from that into Umbrella. Yeah. I mean, that was her next. After that point of her doing that, that next part was really, from my perspective, when she got that record, that's when things really kind of. changed in that way. So, that was just me going to the people that I know value hit records. Did you think about the time when you didn't give Mariah Carey the record? No. You didn't think about that at all? No, man. I mean, I never thought about that again until we just brought it up. I mean, it's not. I'm just asking. I'm just asking if you're like, okay, well, last time I did it like this, I might need to. No, I mean, listen, you get your life experiences and you know, but I don't know. I've, like, with me, with artists and artist development, I'm always betting on what's new. That's right. I'm never. You know, like, I love working with established artists, but, you know, a lot of these people that I worked with, they weren't, you know, I like bringing them to the table. Like, that's my high point. That's dope. Yeah. That's dope. And I don't think it's enough acknowledgement for how many hit records you've done. Because we're talking about all the shit that didn't work, but we haven't even got to the shit that did except for the hit records. Except for Umbrella. But it's a lot more in learning from a loss than a win. Yeah. Yeah. That's real. That's real. The losses. You did Single Ladies. Yeah. Didn't you? Yeah. Single Ladies is probably one of the biggest fucking records of the generation, man. Diamond. Damn. Yeah. Diamond, like, in real diamond terms. Okay. So what is the biggest record you think? What is the biggest record you think you've ever did? I think it's Umbrella. Umbrella? Yeah. I mean, long-term, like, Single Ladies is up there because Single Ladies has a part in culture that's like, every wedding, birthday party, stuff like that. It's just one of those records that you hear in certain moments now. But with that being said, Umbrella is a song that's gonna live forever. You know, and so I would say Umbrella. Umbrella. Yeah. Okay. And that relationship between you and Rihanna has, you know, has evolved into, you know, more records on future albums. Yeah, we did Hard. We did another record called Rockstar. Like, that was real crazy. Some other ones too. I can't, Breaking Dishes. You know, so I worked, we did, oh, Complicated. That's the one with the red hair. She's loud. Like, I gotta look, I have to think of the album's, like, covers because I can't remember like all the different areas. You've done that many. Yeah, we, damn. I mean, we try to hit them, you know, when we can. That's right. I mean, we have relationships with artists. Like, we have a relationship with you. You know, you, you don't, you don't always, we don't always make records that go on a project, but you always have records from us to go, yeah, we was in, we spent time. So, like, I think with, I mean, we know each other outside the studio. Yeah, yeah. So we make records. Like, you know, we go out and, and, and club and kick it and, you know, do dumb shit together. So that always makes for good music. Yes. And I think when you, you know, I do work, like I said, I do work for labels, but at the same time, the most important to me is my artist relationships. Okay. So I really value the relationship with the artist, but one of the reasons that I can value it is because I'm never really going to you saying, how do I get paid? Right. I don't want to have those conversations with another creative person. I'll be like, that's a great way to look at it. I'd rather be cool with the artist by not asking the artist for money. Yep. For sure. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, not bringing business into the creative relationship. That makes sense. So how did you get, how did you get started working with Beyonce? Um, Max Goose. Max Goose, who, um, Max Goose used to work for Matthew Knowles and so, so my connection to that is I did B2K for Max Goose. So anytime Max Goose calls me for anything, like, he doesn't call often but when he does we've always won. And so he's, he called me for B2K. Okay. And then the next time he called me was for Beyonce and then the other part was at that time we, there was synergy because obviously we had made the record single, uh, Umbrella, Dreams record had come out so Dream has now out Falsetto and And you did a lot of those records too? Yeah, I did, uh, pretty much like half. Like, it was either Myself or Dream and, uh, I Together or Los, uh, Carlos McKinney. Okay. Uh, so it's kind of like that's our chemistry between like, you know, Myself, Dream, and Los at that time, you know? Y'all did some dope shit how the end of one record became the beginning, of another one? Mm-hmm. Like, that was like one of the first times I heard that executed like, the way that it was on his album. That shit was dope. Yeah, that was, that was a time to be alive. I mean, that album was so innovative in the stomach of stuff that we was doing. I just learned that the Dream record, uh, uh, I Love Your Girl, I just learned that it was a diss record through Dwayne. I just learned that. I didn't know that. Yeah, that's what my partner who was just in here said. I told him, he told me that. And he also said that Lollipop was supposed to be aimed at Dream. because of Nivea. I don't know nothing about what you're talking about. I've never heard that. I just heard it, and I know Dream personally. Yeah, he's never said that to me. I've never heard that, so I'm going to find out if that's true or not. I mean, I doubt it. You doubt it? You doubt it's true? I mean, listen, Dream ain't the type of person to be walking around with another man's thoughts in his head. He don't live his life that way. So I would be surprised. Yeah, that's real. All right, so when did you decide to focus on family as far as starting your own family? Because it seems like a lot of your frontal lobe was dedicated to being a hitmaker in the industry. When did it get from that being the priority to now let's build another generation? I would say it would just happen. Like, I wasn't going to have a family. Fuck the family, man. What a hit. I mean, I wasn't, like, my family would tell you that I probably wasn't destined to have a family. Why do you say that? Because of your lifestyle, your mindset? Yeah, just my mindset, my lifestyle, how I live, what I was focused on. And so I met the person that just stopped me in my tracks. Like, I have a 0.1% chance. And I married the absolute only person in the world that would really love me. Damn. And so I'm very thankful, and I respect it. I respect her to the utmost because she's given me a life that I would never have had otherwise. I would have had music. Right. But I wouldn't have the life that I have because without her, she's just like, you know, she really, she solidified me, like, and just put me in a place where it was like. I wouldn't say it's balanced. It's still not balanced. My wife put me in my place all the time. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, but it's like, my life ain't balanced yet. You know, it's on its way, but she's given me the capability of being married and having somebody that loves me being creative as much as I love creating stuff. And so it's like, this is very helpful to have a person that creates a foundation like that for you. That's amazing. Shout out to Keita Stewart. That's amazing. Makita Stewart. She'd be like, don't call me Keita. Yeah, man, that's amazing. It's beautiful, man. Any epic studio fails that turned into a funny story you'd like to share? Epic studio fails. I would say, man, I would say the Mariah Carey Touch My Body sessions, or when we work with Mariah Carey, it's always a good time because obviously. Mariah's super fun. I don't know if people know that. Mariah's super fun. She's super competitive. She's super. And she talks shit. And she's super petty. You know? And so she's like, she's great. She's great, but at the same time, she does shit. Like, she'll come in. She'll be like, she'll come in, she'll have on some just crazy, like, $10 million earrings and dream of being in the studio or something. And she'll be like, oh, I love your earrings. He's like, oh, really? These are the earrings that L.A. got me after Jermaine wrote We Belong Together. Bam. She do shit like that. And Dream be like, oh, for real? Bam. But she's just like, she'll try to motivate. $10 million earrings? I mean, it was probably, like, five. Five. Five million. But still, five. Hell nah, bro. But she does things like that to motivate you. So I think in its totality, some of the most fun, interesting sessions that I've been a part of have been navigating the. The Touch My Body session in particular was funny because, you know, Mariah is a great writer in her own right. She's written all of her hits. She has, I believe, she has 19 number ones. And she's written on all of them. And we did the 18th one. And so she was, you know, she had 17 before we walked in the door. Right. And so we were the hot shots on the block. And so, you know. And Dream always felt like he was a star. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Before he didn't. Like, that's, I think, that's the thing about niggas from Atlanta. We already knew we were stars before the world agreed with us. Yeah. We walk in the door like, shit, pleasure to meet me. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. You welcome, motherfucker. Yeah. So to have him in an intimate setting with her who's really already a legitimate star. Yeah. Super star. Super, yeah. Mega star. Mega. Meteor. Yeah. Yeah. So how did you navigate those personalities? Man, you know, I prayed. You know, I prayed first and foremost. Because like I said, like, she talks a lot of shit. And, you know, Dream is going to pop. Yeah, yeah. And she's going to pop. And so it was fun because they're both funny. Yeah. But they were. I could tell they was being funny, but they were being serious. And, you know, she would be like. They'd be writing on the mic and she would say something like. She might be freestyling. And I remember one of the lines was like. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa. Freestyling. Yeah. Freestyling. So Mariah Carey freestyles. Freestyle singing. Like, her and Dream. Oh, singing. Okay. Yeah. So they got the mics and they going back and forth. And I remember one time she was like. Said something slick about 17 number ones and Dream sang back in a beautiful melody. And he's like, and I wouldn't be here if you could write another one. Hell nah, bro. So shit like that, you know? Oh, shit, man. Yeah. Damn, bro. And so all that was fun. Just, you know. That's hilarious. Two amazing creatives. Like, just. Yeah. You know, it was all love, but at the same time it was complicated in certain aspects of, you know, me. You know, it got to a point where I'm like. I stopped writing, like, early in my career, like, lyrically writing. And so, like, the last couple of songs on Mariah's album, she's like, you just write them with me. And I'm like. Like, no! They're like, no! Terrible idea. I am Tilt-T-I-Hair. I am Tilt-T-I-Hair.