Speaker 1This is the Experts Podcast, where we pull back the curtain on Australian media. Join Nick Hayes as he speaks with prominent journalists, producers and media personalities and the experts they call on to break down the big stories, find out what it takes to work with the media and how to establish yourself as a media presence in Australia. The Experts Podcast is a production of Media Stable.
Speaker 2Well, hello, everyone. Welcome to the Experts Podcast. It's Nick Hayes with you. Oh, didn't we have a fantastic chat with Russell Howcroft last week? And thank you very much for all the communication coming back around that chat. It was inspiring. This one is going to be just as inspiring. I've been wanting to have a chat with this young man. We've spoken to him before. And if you're in the communication space, if you are in the media space, you'll know who he is. He is a warrior of PR. He has got the title. And I tell you what. I don't think you want to change the title when you've got that name. His name is Trevor Young. He joins me. Hello, Trevor. Nick Hayes.
Speaker 3Always a pleasure, sir. I believe we've got a packed agenda today.
Speaker 2We've got a packed agenda. We're going to go off a little off piste in the old skiing terms. We're going to jump off the mountain and see where it takes us, because I think there's no better person to be having a chat to around modern communications and where we are going than your good self. And the work that you do. I just want to before we even get started, if you're not following Trevor Young on LinkedIn or you're not part of his sub stack, get involved, because the content that he is delivering is cutting edge and he's an observer across globally when it comes to communications. And Trev, this is the sort of thing that actually got us kicking off. You put up a post with reference to fake agents delivering fake media. Now, not a problem. I don't think it's happening in Australia so much, which I kind of pulled you up on on LinkedIn. I haven't heard of this one, but it is happening around the world. Let's talk through that. What was the what was the premise behind that post?
Speaker 3Yeah, well, the first one was well, it came out of a it was it was an article written in a magazine or an online publication called Influence, which is the CIPRs in the UK. It's it's their publication for members and the broader PR and comms community. And it did talk about how there was some research done that there the media receiving fake experts. So PR people of people are pitching fake experts. And this is a concern because, I mean, as we know now, the pictures of the people can be really good. And, you know, they're just instead of real people, they're pitching fakes and and probably because the client hasn't got any experts themselves, which is really weird. You also did allude to fake publicists there. That was a one off in one article I read where and I shared with you where a PR agency was faking their publicists so that the media was actually talking to fake publicists. For real clients, by the way, and I understand even the clients didn't know they're being pitched by AI generated publicists.
Speaker 2And that's where I think we're heading towards. And the scary thing, Trev, is that this idea that and I'm seeing it quite a bit myself, where people are selling AI bots that are in the communication space that will help you be better at what you do will guide you in the form of, let's say, media release. PR and this kind of fix it little click on to your program or to the business that you're belonging to is going to be this sort of saviour of your communications and I call bullshit on that. I just don't think that there is an AI that can do that for a brand or a personality or a business that is all encompassing that can actually work this because it's just it's just mush that it's going to produce. Because it's generated from pretty much everything else that's out there.
Speaker 3Yeah, look, we can we'll probably delve into the broader AI question and how that you know, how you can use it for content PR comms and how experts themselves can use it to their benefit. But let's just tie the bow on this as I said and you know, you said you haven't seen any evidence of it here and look, it's really early days. It was really, you know, I thought it was just an interesting story that was up but I look at what's the upshot? If this takes off and journalists are being inundated, which their inboxes as we know are always full of pictures and if there's starting to get fake experts being pitched to them, you know, they're going to be even less trusting in what they are. I mean, as an expert who are pitching the media or a leader getting out there a thought leader, you want to be more over index on being discoverable that people could find you and be your verifiable. And so I use this story to really get the point out that it's up to the experts who want to be on the media to make sure you can be found and you're a genuine person. So it's it's less about are they being pitched and more about are you doing the right thing as as a thought leader as a professional expert in your space?
Speaker 2As you know, Trevor, it's been my business for the last 14 years to pitch experts to put them out there. And I'm a strong believer in this and it is simply this is that you are the expert. You do what you do you the way that you get your foot in the door though, is a complete that that is that's not even the part that that is just that's the way you get an opportunity. If you get the opportunity, do you take it? Well, yes, you do and you'd be good at it. You deliver the way that media needs it. You deliver a good sound opinion position or a piece of education entertainment, whatever it might be to the to the audience that you're delivering to and you'll get asked back. You'll get to be a recognized expert. I love that word verifiable that you use though, Trevor. I think that's one that you're coining very beautifully for any experts or any people out there. Explain that a little bit more to me. Verifiable. We want you to make sure that people can see you can identify you as the expert.
Speaker 3Yeah, look and I guess previously in years gone by it's would do a Google search. What do we find and does you know does what we'll find do the professional you justice. That's something that I've always asked a question of my clients. But today as we know people are more and more and more using AI tools such as chat. GPT and Claude and perplexity and Gemini to check people out to check things out. There's two parts to it. One is who is the best person I should be speaking to in this industry or who who is a thought leader in this topic. So there's that where they don't actually know you but then there's the one where okay, you've pitched all your names come up or you've been referred or they've spotted you or however referral and then they go and check you out which they will do and they want to get to the the nub of it really quickly because again, we're talking with time poor people now this yes, this is the media but this is also if someone's going to book you to speak. Yeah, you know if if if someone's actually going to talk to you for your own business. So this is what is your product a hundred percent? And so people are now getting adept at having conversations or answer conversations with with the with AI tools and you know, there was some stats out. Some some time back where you know, we used to Google two or three words that was it and now the average search if we can use that word or question is around 29 words and you know, if you're any anything like me, you don't just have one. It's not a one-way conversation. It's going backwards and forwards and going deeper and deeper and the machines are getting more sophisticated sophisticated and they they gather information depending on which one you use from a range of sources of which earned media is is very high up there.
Speaker 2She's why I love working with you Trevor your segways to my next question always pops up. You're the you're the master of this and it is all about the earned media. We've been harping on it for years and I think it's probably just having its Renaissance period right now. It's beautiful lined up ready to rock because the reality around people googling. Where you are what you do is now sitting in as you just described the the in the Geo space. The the generative engine optimization the chat GPT is the chords of the world the copilot even that's already hooked up into your system. They're monitoring the very well core earned media content. That's not necessarily paid for the content that is real that is learned from that is becoming the back at you. So Let's just quickly tap into that earned media space again because I think It's one of the hardest forms of media to attain. Anyone can buy media. Anyone can buy advertising, advertorial or anything like that, but earned media to be there as the expert, to be the commentator, it is difficult, but it's never been more important to play a role in this.
Speaker 3Correct. Correct. I like to say earned media has got its sexy back. And look, if people want to go much deeper into this, you've had previous guests, Simon Murphy and Daryl Sparry, a number of months ago who, you know, Daryl particularly has been in the forefront of this from the UK and, you know, he's been monitoring this and he specialises in that GEO space. But from an earned media point of view, and I guess it does change a fair bit, as I said, from a machine to a machine, from tool to tool, but the headline stat really is from a muck rack research that shows that something like when the GEO, when you do GEO through AI, it's looking at something like 84% of citations that it surfaces come from earned media. Now, whether it's 80%, whether it's 85%, it doesn't matter. It's a bulk of it. It's a big number.
Speaker 2It's a big number.
Speaker 3But let's just say, well, what earned media is, I mean, for some people, that could be a specialist magazine in your industry. It could be a podcast. It could be, you know, a well-known blog. It doesn't have to necessarily be the New York Times or Forbes magazine or in Australia, the Fin Review. So, you know, sometimes it will find you through YouTube, for example, and it may be often through your own blog or, you know, maybe your own newsletter. So. So, it's, if this is really important to you, it's good to really understand where these AI tools are getting their information from, what are they citing and what are they surfacing and take note of those things.
Speaker 2I love that. And we're doing a little bit of earned media here, Trevor. This has all been derived by your media, your own media that's moved over into earned media. Look at you go. You're an example, living proof and example. Now, you did speak about, you did speak about Daryl Sperry and you did speak about Simon Murphy. That was a great chat on GEO. It's a great one to go back to to have a listen and actually understand. One of the little things about Daryl Sperry, I don't think Daryl does earned media. He just does Sperry media. So, it's all about Daryl and he's very good at it. I do love these words. And there's another podcast to have a listen to, Valerio Veo, who is in that sort of brand digital transformation AI space as well, who sort of doubled down on that as well. It's got to, you've got to kind of understand, where we're playing, what kind of playfield or playing ground we have, that we're working in and where this does help and work. So, it's, it is an interesting time that we're in, in that we've got to be doing this and doing it better. And I do love on your sub stack, Trevor, that the idea you don't have to be hitting AFR. You don't have to be hitting the today's show. They're very difficult pieces of media to get into, but it can be just that local, local newspaper. It can be that little radio interview that you do on either community or, or, or a state statewide radio station, or it can be that post or that, that little piece of media that is done that you didn't actually sort of start or it's a third party endorsement. Absolute gold that.
Speaker 3Yeah, look, and, and maybe what you're referring to, I, I, I talk about, I always try and bring these things to life somehow. And I, and I'm very much around, I love earned media. It's got its sexy back. My history is in, in PR, but I'm also very big on owned media, having been blogging since 2007 and sort of seen all the platforms come and go and, and, and, you know, social media plays a role as well across all of these things. But, you know, so it is a mixture. I've always believed in the, the media mix. And, and the thing about, I'll just touch on here, Nick, that owned media often is, is a good, a generator of earned media, because again, if you're going to be verifiable, if, if, if a journalist or a producer or a researcher is going to check you out, what will they find? Now, yes, they might check you out on Instagram or TikTok or, or LinkedIn, depending on, are you a consumer person with a big following on Instagram? Or are you a more of a business expert through LinkedIn? But they'll look at your blog. They'll look at your podcast. They'll make sure that you're doing these things. And they're your owned media channels. And they're very important from a, yes, a verification side of things, but also, you know, it shows that you've got credibility, that you've got a perspective, a point of view. If you've got a YouTube channel, people can, and you want to go on TV, they'll check your YouTube out and see whether you can speak and present. And so these things are really important. It's not just shooting for earned media straight away, but doing the groundwork to have your point of view buttoned down. You know, if you've got a contrary, and perspective on things and, and let's see that, let's see that through your owned media, your long form content repurposed across your social media channels. And then you're going for the earned media. Sorry, that was an entree into the, when we looking at earned media and at all comms anyway for all over, I like using the, the off-Broadway or the Broadway, off-Broadway and off-off-Broadway as an analogy and I'll unpack. What that means. So Broadway is the main stage. So these are, I guess, your fin review, your forms, your talkback radio, 3AW, 2GB, all, all the big players. It's also on a social media front. It's the viral LinkedIn hits and the, you know, the YouTube that goes out. These are the big, the big stages and, and, and they're bright and they're, everyone wants them and, and that's great. And we want to be able to get to them, but it might not be right for everyone at every time, every point in their professional life. Number one, number two is shoot for them. But what have you got underneath that for more credibility? So then I talk about the power is in off-Broadway and off-Broadway is the credible curated specialist tier of media. So if you look at off-Broadway in America, in New York, you know, that's where the, you know, you, some top top actors go to try new material and away from the spotlight, but still, you know, to a smaller audience, who's really engaged. So you're off-Broadway is really engaged. So it could be your local newspaper, as you say, it could be, you know, a podcast that's not Joe Rogan. You know, it's, they're, they're smaller stages. Let's call them that. And then we have off, off-Broadway. And these are the, where the real action happens that are really, really hyper intimate experimental, you know, level. So that could be being on in some talking, being a guest in someone's private community or being in a Slack channel. You know, the really micro private rooms or stages that you can, you know, it might be a breakfast event where there's going to be 20 people versus off-Broadway where it might be an industry event, that's got, you know, a hundred people in the room versus Broadway, which is the big industry annual conference. So I just try to give that out there because it's a good way for people to, you know, there's no right or wrong, what goes in off-Broadway and what goes in Broadway, but it's to give people an idea that, okay, there's more to earned media than just getting on the TV news on at night.
Speaker 2And there's, and there's all different repercussions with it as well. And to what you've just said, you know, when I think Broadway, I think, I think it's a really good way to get people to get on the TV news. And I think it's a really good way to get people to get on the TV news. A long, a very harder ticket to get hold of two waiting lists, et cetera. That's it's, it's, it is, it's tougher to get hold of. Whereas off-Broadway, you've got a little bit more access to it. It's also where they, you know, they, they are more experimental and they're probably going to like you a little bit better, a little bit more. You're, you're more a, a, a, a, a top ticket item, a top billing item than you might necessarily be. In, on Broadway. I love it. And it just so happens I was just on Broadway at the start of the year, which sort of really did hit home as well. Saw a couple of Broadway shows, saw a couple of off-Broadway as well.
Speaker 3Yes, there you go.
Speaker 2Well, you've got to, you've got to. And I think it's a little bit of everything. But the other thing I'm getting from that, Trevor, is the disciplines as well. And this is something I see with you, the way that you talk about it, the consistency showing up, becoming verifiable to, it does take discipline this. Because you've got to, you've got to produce the content regularly and of the highest quality, depending on the brand that you are and what you're looking to put out there. But this is not easy. This is not a simply buying your way in. This is you. This is who you are and presenting yourself to a wider community.
Speaker 3It's also to have a bit of awareness and understanding. And I guess coming from a background of, you know, 30 years in PR, and, you know, earlier days of PR, it was very publicity driven. Today, it's not. it's not. But in those days, and you'd get a client and they say, well i want to be on the news and on tv and talkback radio and without even contemplating that they haven't got a story to tell and and it's this default to the bright the broad this is where the whole broadway idea came from it's a default to broadway i've got to be on broadway and and it's just not the right way to look at it and and look in a rare occasion you might actually have a news item that a story that that's perfect i mean i had one client and it was a startup and they were selling to a publicly listed company okay well that gives you an entree into the fin review potentially yes on your first go because the news is that genuine um not because of the startup because of the publicly listed company but it's not the case all the time most of the time and we're talking about longevity we're talking about commenting on trends on topics on on on media issues issues that have broken in the media so you know this is a step by step by step by step by step and as you as you know nick when experts who do the right thing who are prepared who get onto the big stages you know a sunrise tv show or whatever they often get asked back when the time is relevant for them to come back um and and and the topic is relevant again because again the media we're going to have to come back and do that and we're going to have to make sure that we're doing a good job and we're going to make sure that we're bringing on that they're not going to make a fool of them and and that's very key so once they've got you they've got you that's that's and you do a good job and you turn up and you're a nice person a good human being and you know
Speaker 2your stuff hey you you increase your chances the next time you become that media asset and that's exactly i think what a lot of brands and experts and individuals are looking to to become mate we're off to a flyer here i i want to dump into a jump into a new subject here artificial intelligence we weren't we were talking about earned media and the way you are found by artificial intelligence but let's look around ai and the creation of content now i want to be very clear from the outset and i've told a lot of people this on this podcast i am not an ai denier i think ai plays such an important role in just about every element of our lives today but here's where i will go and actually the question i throw to you first trevor because i really i kind of i guess want to understand the the pr warrior the great content creator that you are for you and for your for your clients how much of ai how much ai are you using so i
Speaker 3can tell you personally i can tell you that exactly uh i'm using and and i've been in it for quite a while and i've changed and morphed and my ideas are changing as as we go and as the uh the machines get better i use it mainly as a tool and so um rather than just chuck stuff in ai give me an article and i pop it up there's no way like there's just no way now i might get it to help me with sentences and some things um but at the end of the day is what it takes me it takes me i reckon twice as long if not three times longer today to write an article than it used to without it okay so that just everyone who's saying oh you know you can get 10 articles done in half an hour sure no way not if you're putting the work in i am going deeper on topics than i ever have i'm joining more dots than i ever have it's making me a better writer and publisher yeah because i've got this research at my fingertips and we argue and we fight and we go backwards and forwards as a collaborator because when you're a then you know it gets pretty lonely i've run pr agencies and i'd say pull three people into a room in the boardroom say let's brainstorm this that ain't happening anymore um and and well it does it happens with claude and we're not in the boardroom but um the thing is that if you do it that way and you just look at it as a collaborator as a partner uh you feed it all i i mean i'm lucky i've written books and i've got a lot of material so i've fed a lot of my stuff i've trained a lot of my stuff i've trained claude in particular my voice my way of doing things um so that's an important thing if you haven't got anything to train it on your voice then it's going to spit back things that don't sound like you so it is collaborative on so many different fronts now i will say that if i've written a 2 000 word article i'll it's all me you know there's parts of it that i've done so many things that i've done that i've done that i've done a lot of things that i've done that i've done a lot of things that i've done that i've done i've done a lot of things that i've done and i fight and i also check i double check and triple check things so i check with another ai tool about that and sometimes we go backwards and forwards that's probably why it takes me so long but um the verifying and the checking of things like again i can go deeper because i can get these things checked a lot easier than i used to so where it saves me time is that i can put an article in and repurpose that article and i can go back and look at it and i can go back and look at that article it's my words it's my thinking yeah um and then that's great for social media rather than me sit go through and change it all and do all that so that's that's where i really do use it of course you know when it comes to video i can put it through a different ai tool and cut out all the ums and ahs in a um in a podcast or it can get a clip through riverside which we're using now that's ai grabs a clip so there's so many other different ways apart from chat gpt and claude one way i have found it's very good and i'm becoming you know i'm an ex journalist so i think very editorial editorial um and and you know being a bit more like a journalist these days going back to my roots when i do interview someone on my podcast um just like you're doing with me now uh we can do it with this one if you like and what i what i do is i get the recording of that i put it through a tool called cast magic i get the transcript yep i put that transcript through claude and i've got plenty of examples to give claude so claude comes back with the right way and we search for a red thread a thread that goes through because a lot of my conversations like we are here we might chop and change and go off piste right come back to a basic theme but go off often off the beaten track a bit and so you know if i was interviewing someone as a journalist in the old days i'd be taking notes but i'm not doing that i'm interviewing someone as a podcaster and so i get i get claude to uh work out the threads through the transcript and we go backwards and forwards on that once i'm happy with that i will say why don't you um give me a first draft and have the put rather than it's not show notes show notes is a whole new thing of course you can do ai for show notes that's that's easy and easy and and and very effective and better than a human probably um but i get an editorial article done from that from that interview and it's me in it and it's and quoting the person so i come up with the idea and the theme we quote the person all the way through it and i put my two bobs worth in which i did at the time and then we did an article from it and then i'll go over and review it and check it and rewrite it and all of that sort of stuff and that takes me quite a while so again takes me a long time but i get a good article that's not show notes from a podcast episode i'm not seeing too many people do that i i that's just probably because of the journalist in me but that's where ai has been amazing i can do it with this you know maybe i'll do it with this
Speaker 2one as well do it with this one and you know what i i do something similar and i i think the reason i asked you that question um from a media stable perspective we were very anti-ai to begin with let's just remember remind ourselves to ai it's only been around a couple of years we're not talking about you know uh google been around 20 plus years this is kind of the this is the new the new tool and i love what you've been saying it's it is improving all the time yes it's getting better we heard that from daryl from simon from valerio around that improving quality side of it but i love the fact that you're using it as a and i and i love the fact that it's it's helping you dive deeper and get and get a better product at the end because you can continue to question or at least go down those rabbit holes that you need to go down that you might have just had to avoid because you just didn't have the time or the resources to do that it's sitting there you should use it but i just want to very quickly tap back into we had to send a message out to media stable members only at the start of this year just to be mindful that if you're going to put anything that is ai generated it better have your thumbprint all over it because if it doesn't it is so quickly and easily seen by media they discount it they don't want anything to do with it they want personal human touch connection points they don't want what we call the ai slop and it is out there and it's being produced but i'm a bit like you i'm a bit like you trevor i i think it's got to be you got to use it to challenge even the thoughts and the way that you're thinking and give us a different perspective and and work it out in real time as opposed to just trying to work it out over a long extended yeah and
Speaker 3and the difference again is the shortcut merchants shortcut you know yeah they'll just give it and and and it will go against them the people that and and i'm all about you know i'm a writing purist at heart so you know this has taken me a while to even get to this stage but when i see the power and and i'm a collaborative beast anyway you know i can and we do trust me we do fight and and i do pick up on things that that i think are clearly wrong or not my voice or whatever i mean you've got to be quite strong on that and i think you know i wrote a piece about called you know humans were the originators of ai slop we're blaming ai but hey before ai come on linkedin was still slop there was trauma dumpers and there was humble brags and all that crap was there beforehand anyway people trying to game the system and whatever you know fill a pipe of their content and tick the box that was there before we blame you know of course we can blame ai for you know ai generated comments on linkedin and that's there's a lot to blame it for but it's not ai's fault it's the people using it um to shortcut to shortcut um you know and look i'm all for productivity and i'm not i'm not anti-ai because i use it often but you know i just think we need and we're seeing a swing back to humanity a bit more on things oh my word we are um i mean if you're looking at you know you've already mentioned substack um substack recently brought in that they've they've got a thing about readability or they i think they use pangram is a ai identification tool which is all of these tools that you know media outlets that are using they're not 100 i read something recently someone said i did a complete ai thing and it got through and then i did my own and it didn't get through so i think there's a lot of water to go under that particular thing so i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do in terms of identifying what's written and what's not by ai i think we need to grow up a little bit uh if the idea is good if it's readable if it's you know there's personality and it's the person they're consistent and all of that does it really matter if if ai's
Speaker 2had a hand in it well trim i'll ask you this question there's a little statement that runs around ai makes smart people dumb and dumb people smart is that is that is that fair
Speaker 3i hope it's not making me dumber as i said i'm i think i'm i'm going deeper i got more more ideas i've got i don't know about 30 articles in draft 30 or 40 articles in draft that i haven't even got to yet um look it can i'll tell you where it can i know why that comes from is because they're smart people and they're using it to get quick answers and they're not putting the thinking in where they're smart enough to do the thinking yeah um and they're just not doing it and they're outsourcing it so 100 i agree with that and make dumb people smart well you know if you're not a good writer ai will make you a better writer so there's there's there's truth to that but it's it's um i i've got
Speaker 2i actually like that part because your expertise or skill set might be sitting in in in numbers it might be sitting in uh physical activity whatever it might be but communication and words might not be your great thing um i i love i've recently heard one where it's if you generate anything with ai go and put a couple of spelling or grammar errors in it just to make sure that people know it's you and nine times out of ten people expect people people are doing that yes they are and i and i they're
Speaker 3doing it they are that's
Speaker 2and i love it i love it because it's it actually is no one everyone who knows me knows my attention to detail and my ability to not make a mistake is is is not it's not even possible i'm going to make a mistake somewhere along the lines and uh and that's because i'm human and we love it we love we love that human
Speaker 3stuff we do but interestingly now and and it's something that i've sort of been thinking about for some time and and it certainly it starts in music you know where the streaming has got so big and now vinyl is so huge you know and as an industry and you know i lament that because i gave away all my vinyl decades ago now it's costing a fortune to buy well cds apparently there's some rare cds they are coming back and the physical media is is coming back and gary vaynerchuk uh only the other day talked about this uh and i 100 agree with him he says it's like a barbell on one hand you've got the extreme ai uh technology and the other hand you've got the extreme technology and ai what people are using and you're going to have the extreme other end analog and that and and analog to is also in person curated events and you know what what ai can't deliver is taste and judgment um so if you're an expert with who can curate um ideas um you can you've got taste judgment all of that sort of stuff you actually don't have to be a writer you know there are people you can be a really good expert and you can be a really good expert and you can be a really good expert as a curator because that's the skill in an information rich world we're looking towards people with taste and judgment and smarts and depth of knowledge who can curate the right people you know some of the biggest podcasters in the world aren't big writers or anything you know they are curators they they curate their guests and they they put out information that way and by default they become seen as the expert so there's there's a lot of people who are just this is the exciting part of all this yes is it overwhelming absolutely but if you know what you want to do what your strengths are um you know you've got your sort of goals buttoned down and more importantly you got your purpose of why you're doing what you're doing yeah open the doors and there's so many other doors there for you and but you just need to be strategic about it i love
Speaker 2that i love that trevor know your strengths because that is ultimately whether you're at home wherever it is know your strengths and maybe outsource those that aren't your strengths to to something else and ai is definitely a place you can do that uh again just make sure it's got your thumbprint all over it oh we love it we love it oh trevor you've we've just we've just started and we're getting we're getting close to the end already i can't let you go without having a chat about substack your substack is outstanding um the reason i wanted to have a chat to you about it a lot of people ask us should i have one should it should it be part of what we do uh it seems to have taken on a life of its own it's very much a trusted space these days talk us through your substack experience you're probably one of only five that i actually subscribe to um what what what what has it been like for you and why
Speaker 3you do it yeah well i've um it's a publication called on substack some years ago and it was a little bit of dead space and there's a hot new one uh newsletter service called beehive came out and i was all over beehive and and it was really great and then substack took off and i jumped back onto substack because it's got notes and notes is like twitter and i'm an old twitter guy and so twitter notes so substack notes is part of it so when you go into substack it's not just a newsletter anymore and a blog but it's a podcast you can do videos you can do live stream and you've got if you want to build a community on there you've got you can have um a forum private forum and you can also um you know you can charge people for things as well if if if that's your thing something to be wary of and it's growing like it's growing like crazy it's um it's uh i saw some stats the other day uh i can't think of what they were but it's it's i think it's something like 179 percent uh of growth uh traffic over two years so it is growing it is big and and you do it's i still call it owned media because you know you're getting people subscribing to you you get access to that those emails i always download them every month in case something happens with substack i don't want to lose my subscriber list yeah but on one hand but you don't you know if they bring an advertising well what you know you know that's out of your control so you've just got to be aware that you don't control the platform uh the subscribers you get unless they come through the app where you don't get their email but um as a rule i think it's still you're in control of your content you can put that content elsewhere and you can um i know some people who mark schaefer for example who is a genuine marketing thought leader he's got his blog he's home base um and he's got his website um on on his website he then puts it on um uh syndicates it to substack he's now doing and also to a linkedin newsletter i was doing that but i've just warehoused my blog i'm putting it all on substack and then a week or so later i'll put it on my linkedin newsletter so i get double the hit um which i think is a good way to go um same same audience uh pretty much so the other thing with substack is that it's they've got referrals so if people refer you know if just say i subscribe to your substack nick and you recommend men mine, then there's a chance that, well, I see that and I subscribe, you know, to Trevor's Substack. So that engine growth is valuable because you don't get that when you're, you know, doing a newsletter off your website. So that growth engine is quite important. And I think if you're going to go onto Substack, you've got to look at the categories and do a bit of research first and just get involved and just subscribe to people. And you can follow people without subscribing to them. So, you know, you don't want to subscribe to, you know, 20 Substacks because your email will be full of it, but you can still follow people and, you know, things will come up in Substack notes. So it's an ecosystem, which I think for the right people is very good. And there are some big names going across to it. Some people are charging for their content. Others are just using it as a freebie to attract people to them. So should someone be on it? Well, it just depends. Do you want to commit to it? It's a publication. It works better on a reasonable cadence. But, you know, you don't want to be on everything. You might say, well, you know, YouTube's my thing and I'm going to throw everything in that. That's fine. You know, again, choosing the channels and the formats, are really important. And you don't want to try and be on all things. Get on one, dominate the best you can, and then think about moving across into other areas.
Speaker 2Be something for someone. Don't try to be everything for everyone. You won't get there. It just doesn't work.
Speaker 3But I will say, if you are a writer and you love writing, and you don't care about all the other types of format modalities like podcasting and YouTube, you're a writer and you want to build a, sort of a really strong community on Substack. And you don't want the hassle of setting up a, and it's free. It's free. Well, that's it.
Speaker 2But you can make some coin out of it. It's, you can have subscribers.
Speaker 3Yeah. If people pay to subscribe to you, then you have to give up 10%, but it's dead easy. So if you don't want the hassle of doing a blog on your own website and paying 30 bucks a month for a newsletter, like a MailerLite or a kit. Or something like that, a newsletter marketing service. Hey, it's free. It's inbuilt. The tools are great. And it does what it says it does.
Speaker 2Well done, Trevor Young. Always good to chat. I'll finish this podcast off by letting everyone know that on your podcast, you managed to get Daryl and Simon on before me. You, you did that. And not because I was like, I followed you. I'd booked them in six weeks. Earlier, they just chose to go on your one first. So there you go. That's where you are in the pepping order. You are up there on the top. I love your work. Hey, always great to chat. I reckon we've chatted probably four or five times over the last couple of years. And it's always, always good to talk. I don't think there's anyone, like I say, anyone better in this content space, the PR space and generating that earned right, that earned ability, earned media side that you are such a massive advocate for. I do appreciate it. Believe me, what you say and what you do, not only we are subscribers to your thinking, I mean, we're devotees, we're disciples, if you like, to all of that, because it's exactly the way we believe in it as well. If you are the expert, you are the commentator, get out there and earn, get earned media and be a part of it. You're, you're very good. Trevor, if people do want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do it? Other than LinkedIn, of course.
Speaker 3Oh, LinkedIn, definitely. And just, just go to earntheright.co and that will take you to the Substack.
Speaker 2Fantastic. That's Trevor Young. He is the PR warrior. He is, follow him on all of his platforms. He knows what he's talking about. And we look forward to your company next week when we talk to another person or another media that knows what they're talking about. We'll speak to you then.
Speaker 1You've been listening to The Experts Podcast, a Media Stable production. This podcast is hosted by Nick Hayes. Emily Morgan is the executive producer. If you'd like to know more, visit our website or email us at info at mediastable.com.au.
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