Treating Lindsay Clancy

As a warning, some of this content contains graphic and disturbing details, including discussions of suicide and the killing of children. So please listen or watch with care. We'll have resources at the end of the episode. I'm willing to try anything. I just keep coming back to the feeling that I'm dependent on Ativan after my two and a half weeks of taking it daily with Benadryl, following the bad reaction to Zoloft. I feel addicted to it, and I feel like I'm not being heard, that that is a possibility. I feel like we are throwing all these different meds at my insomnia when the root cause is Ativan dependence. I don't feel any of the anxious thoughts I had before. I feel completely numb. That is one of the prosecutors reading what Lindsay Clancy wrote to a South Shore hospital nurse, sending her a message on the patient portal MyChart. We are nearly at the end. We are nearly at the end of the third week of testimony in the case known as Commonwealth of Massachusetts versus Lindsay Clancy. Lindsay is currently on trial for three counts of first-degree murder. The now 36-year-old mother spent her birthday on Tuesday, August 11th, in the courtroom. She's charged with killing her three young children, 5-year-old Cora, 3-year-old Dawson, and 8-month-old Callan. In our last episode on the trial, we got an. We got an inside look at the Clancy family through Lindsay's journals and from testimony of a former nanny. The jury got even more with a trip known as a jury view to locations crucial to the events of January 24th, 2023. This week, we're getting a glimpse into Lindsay's possible state of mind through the mental health providers who treated her. The prosecution continues to present evidence that they say. proves that Lindsay Clancy deliberately killed her children. They called Lindsay's psychiatrist to the stand, as well as friends of the Clancy family and the children's preschool teachers. The defense doesn't deny that Lindsay killed her children, but says she shouldn't be held criminally responsible. because she experienced postpartum psychosis that took away her ability to control her actions. A psychosis, the defense says. was exacerbated by the medications she had been prescribed. We have continually seen this argument laid out by the defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, as he cross-examines the state's witnesses. What seems to be unusual in this case is that prosecutors and Lindsay's defense appear to be using some of the very same evidence to try to prove their very different arguments. It appears that this could be a very tough case for jurors. I'm 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty, and this is Case by Case. As you know, I've been doing this for a while, and I've watched gavel-to-gavel coverage on many trials. And usually, as the state presents its case, viewers watching the trial online are supportive of the prosecution in their comments. But there seems to be something very different with this case. If the comments online are any indication. Viewers are deeply divided. Now, we've been following this case closely and covered the second week of the trial in our last episode. For our continuing coverage, you can check the Case by Case feed wherever you find your podcasts. You can also watch episodes of Case by Case on the 48 Hours YouTube channel or by searching Case by Case on Paramount+. Returning this week is friend of the show and. CBS News correspondent Chanel Call, who has been covering the trial for the network. Thanks for being with us today, Chanel. First, I want to ask how you are. You know, I think as journalists, Erin, the story obviously is never about us. This one is a hard one, I think, as a woman. I'm not a mother yet, but I can imagine for any mother out there who is watching this happen or covering the trial inside the courtroom, it's definitely a hard time. Well, Chanel, it's week three, and this trial has been. It's been taking a toll on everyone in the courtroom. I think most visibly, Lindsay Clancy, when her children's autopsy photos were presented as evidence. On Wednesday, two medical examiners, as you know, took the stand to speak to the injuries that were sustained by Cora, Dawson, and Callen. This was such an intense moment. I'm going to play some of that for you. You could actually hear Lindsay breaking down at one point, saying, I can't do it. What do you mean? What do you mean by a furrow? So, again, the furrow is. A ligature is when you have external compression by an object on the neck, and a furrow is simply a pattern of injury that occurs beneath it. It can be an imprint, it could be a pattern, or it could be more developed types of injuries, such as bruising or abrasions. And what about injuries. All right, counsel, could. Let me take a break for this time, all right? All right, let me take a break for this time, all right? Erin, I have chills as I'm rewatching this moment. I mean, this was obviously the most emotional that we've seen Lindsay Clancy since the trial started. She was sobbing so hard there. She was saying, I can't do this. There were juror members who were even crying, and a WBZ reporter who was inside the courtroom actually told us that Lindsay's dad was there through all of this. He was also really visibly emotional. What happened after that was Lindsay ended up leaving the courtroom in tears. She was wheeled out. And then a judge ended up calling two recesses just to give everybody a bit of a break. Remember, they've been working these three, you know, probably morning and night during these trials. And tension appears to be building between them. For example, last Thursday, while Callan's autopsy photos were up on the evidence screen, Lindsay Clancy, again, was audibly crying. But then Hot Mike captured what defense attorney Kevin Reddington believed was someone at the prosecution table saying, Shut her up. Let's play this. No, I don't want to go to the sidebar. I really don't want to go to the sidebar. I need to know what you're going to talk about before. I want to tell you that they got picked up on a Hot Mike saying, shut her up during the playing of that autopsy. All right. This is not like the inmates' tales. Chanel, can you explain what happened there? Yeah, I think if there's anything, Erin, that's really clear so far in this trial, this is someone who does not hold back punches in the courtroom. This is someone who does not hold back punches in the courtroom. And this is what was very clear during this very spicy moment in court. You saw the prosecutors sort of looking at each other. They looked a bit confused about what this accusation was from Reddington. And then what happened after was a DA's office released a statement, and they had claimed, Erin, that this was an unknown member of the courtroom who actually said, shut it off, not shut her up. And they were referring to those graphic images, again, of eight-month-old Callan that we were seeing on the evidence screen at that point in time. Now, regardless. Regardless of what was actually said, this was a hot-mic moment. As you know, this is pretty unusual in a courtroom. So the judge had to acknowledge this. He talked about it. He warned everyone in court last Friday that you'll be kicked out of the trial if you speak out of turn. It was a pretty powerful moment. We actually have that clip. Let's play it here. There is to be no inappropriate comments or disruptive comments to be made inside of this courtroom. If anybody is found to make those, they will be. Immediately escorted out and barred for the balance of this. I just want to make that real clear. And just in case you're wondering, there are microphones all around. And so if we hear, if I get a report of that, there's going to be some serious issues and serious problems. Yeah. So like you said, Erin, I mean, it does feel like tensions are really rising between the prosecution and the defense here. Chanel, at times during this trial, it feels like it's not just Lindsay who's on trial here. Last Friday, we heard from the prosecution's witness, Lindsay's psychiatrist, Dr. Jennifer Tufts. But then on Monday, the defense attorney began his cross-examination where you can really see Reddington taking a proactive approach in his questioning. Let's play some of this. You'll hear from the prosecution first. At any point in time, did she tell you she was planning to kill herself? No. At any point in time on the 23rd, did she say she was planning to kill herself? No, absolutely not. And then here, the defense cross-examines Dr. Tufts, asking more about some of the medications that Lindsay was prescribed. We'll play some of that. You went over the side effects of Zoloft, certainly, and I imagine with her, right? Yes. Did you tell her that one of the known side effects is suicidal thoughts and actions and ideation? Well, that's specifically in children. So I don't think I mentioned that because it wasn't relevant. Not really. Suicidal ideation and homicidal ideation is a black box warning on Zoloft, along with MSSRIs, right? Under age. For children and adults younger than Lindsay. I apologize. Can you just listen to my question and answer it yes or no? Is there a black box warning on Zoloft? Yes. Okay. And a black box warning is. required or prescribed by What, the FDA? Probably. Probably. And it basically warns that, especially with young people or young adults, that it may cause suicidal or, God forbid, homicidal ideation. Yes? Yes. And you're aware that, in fact, the FDA has determined that that goes up possibly to a 23-, 24-, 25-year-old. You know that, right? I think 24 is what they say. I'll give you 24. So with 24, you're suggesting there's a cutoff. Are you suggesting to the jury that a drug that increases the risk of suicide in a 24-year-old patient cannot increase the risk of suicide in a 29- or a 30-year-old patient? Just a little bit. I don't believe there's evidence. I don't believe there's evidence that it causes that at all in individuals over 24. So, look, Erin, I mean, we've seen this strategy from Reddington before, right? This is somebody who's not waiting around for the prosecution to rest their case before he starts his. He seems to be using those moments of cross to try to poke holes in their story. That's his job, right? And what he's trying to do is basically find problems in the prosecution's larger argument here. We really saw him drill down on that strategy when it came to medications since he was prescribed, like Zoloft, for example. And speaking of those drugs like Zoloft, there has been a lot of testimony about the medications Lindsay was taking. There are moments in the trial where it feels possibly too granular for the jury from the detailed discussions about drugs like Ativan, Zoloft, and Prozac, along with all their side effects, to actually the difference between medication addiction and medication dependency. How do you think jurors are taking in this information? Is it helpful? Is it confusing? Is it too much? So, you know, Erin, I can see how some of the jargon here can be a little overwhelming to the jurors because it is so nuanced, especially because they're not allowed to Google things like you and I are during the course of this trial, right? But I do think that the detail here is important and this kind of testimony could actually sway them because Zoloft, for example, right, that was the first medication that Lindsay Clancy was prescribed. And a doctor that I spoke to, Erin, said, if you have any kind of underlying condition, for example, bipolar disorder, which Lindsay's former psychiatric nurse practitioner had testified that she believed Lindsay may have had underlying bipolar disorder, that drug could actually push you into a manic state. So while it is a little overcomplicated, understanding each of these drugs, why they're prescribed, what role they may or may not have played here in her mental health in the weeks and the months leading up to what happened in January 2023 is pretty important here. Now, we've seen Lindsay's attorney, as we've said a few times, Kevin Reddington get pretty combative with witnesses on the stand. And he seemed especially hard on Dr. Jennifer Tufts during the cross-examination. I want to play one of their many tense exchanges here. And you know that the outcome of this case is very, very major to the outcome of your lawsuit. Is that right? No. I don't actually know that. So you understand that if, in fact, it's determined that you advertised as an expert in post-partum and in post-partum psychiatry and you had a month experience plus a residency, would you consider that to be negligent or a misrepresentation? I do not believe that I have been negligent. Do you understand what misrepresentation means? Yes. With a month ending adult plus your residency, do you really want this jury to believe that you were an expert? Do you advertise that? I don't think that's exactly the wording that I used. I think I said that it was an interest of mine. That's the answer. No. Go ahead. Good. You can answer that. I just think. The wording was that it's an interest of mine. I don't believe I called myself an expert. Are you an expert in post-partum? I may be. I don't know. I think it depends on what you define an expert as. So now he alludes to also a civil suit in that, and we're going to get to that in just a second, aren't we, Janelle? But it's pretty clear the point that Reddington is trying to make for the jury, right? I mean, I think what we're seeing here is Reddington being Reddington. I mean, he's questioning. He's questioning whether Tufts' knowledge and experience aligns with what she was advertising that she could offer patients like Lindsay Clancy. And so the big question here is, did Lindsay Clancy get the care she needed, right? And this particular line of questioning obviously aims to try to prove to some of the jurors that she was failed by the system, that she was failed by medical professionals. And in Reddington's cross-examination of Dr. Tufts, he actually questions the notes that she made, the notes she didn't make, asking why she didn't write certain things down with greater detail and about why she prescribed certain drugs that had potentially negative side effects for Lindsay Clancy. And remember, Erin, this testimony is important outside this trial too because Dr. Tufts has also been named in civil suits that was filed by both Lindsay and Patrick Clancy. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about those civil suits. We're right in the middle of a criminal trial, but there are these other suits that are pending. Lindsay has filed a medical malpractice, negligence, and personal injury suit against a number of her healthcare providers, including Dr. Tufts. And Dr. Tufts has also been named in a suit filed by Patrick Clancy for the wrongful death of their three children. So what does the testimony from this criminal trial mean for those two civil suits that are far away from happening at this point? Can we expect to hear from other people who were named in them? Yeah, this is a little bit of a tangled web and all of this is going to be playing out at different times. Rebecca Gelata, who was Lindsay's psychiatric nurse practitioner at South Shore Medical, also took the stand this week, Erin, and she's also named in both of these suits. So when Reddington brought up the suits during that cross-examination of Tufts, I think what he was trying to do here was really just remind the jury that this is someone who's also going to be on trial, albeit a civil one. Now, I do want to note that, you know, court papers, Tufts and Gelata, they both denied Lindsay's lawsuit allegations. And they, by the way, have also requested that the evidence be reviewed by a third party, a medical malpractice tribunal. When it comes to Patrick Clancy's lawsuit, Erin, they've also asked a judge to just full-out dismiss it. Both of those requests are pending. And, you know, maybe just because those civil suits are still pending here, Lindsay, you know, seemed to be more observant during that testimony with Tufts. She actually had her glasses on and she seemed to be paying pretty close attention. Chanel, I think I can restate and remind listeners and viewers that Dr. Tufts refuted Reddington's line of questioning that implied that she was negligent in her treatment of Lindsay and that both Tufts and Gelata on the stand explained the reasoning behind their decisions for Lindsay's care. But I can't help but think it cannot be easy for either one of those women to take the stand, go back through their notes from 2022 and early 2023, for the jurors, knowing that everything they did back then, it will be questioned and examined. But you raise a really interesting point because through most of this trial, especially when evidence of her children's death was shown, Lindsay seemed to go between being overcome with emotion or she just looked away or she was looking down. But as you mentioned, when Jennifer Tufts was on the stand, Lindsay did appear to be more engaged, maybe even a little more alert. Of course, we don't know what she was thinking, but it was noteworthy. Yeah, I mean, the testimony from Tufts and Gelata, remember, is about herself. It's about Lindsay Clancy. But those moments when we're hearing testimony about her children, you know, I'm thinking back to the moment in the courtroom where that 911 call was played. It was so chilling. Lindsay was sobbing. There were people in the courtroom who were visibly emotional. And then again, when those autopsy photos were released last week, she got emotional again. And I think that's what we need to do. Last week, we also got to look into who Lindsay Clancy was before she killed her children through the people who were close to her. We heard from Lindsay's friends, her former father-in-law, and a friend of Patrick Clancy's. And what was interesting to me, they all describe her as a loving, caring mom. It made me think I'm not really quite sure whether this helps the state or the defense. Lindsay's childhood friend was actually texting Lindsay a few days before the events of January 24th, 2023. And here's what she had to say on the stand. She had shared that she had been taking a medication that caused her to have some dark thoughts. But that she was going to, or had been weaning, like tapering off that medication and was trialing new ones that would remove those side effects. and be more helpful and therapeutic to what she needed. And did she tell you what those dark thoughts were? No. What was the tone of the conversation? Hopeful, I would categorize it. Did she ever express at any point that she wanted to harm herself? No. Did she ever express that she wanted to harm the children? No. Did she ever tell you that she was hearing voices? No. It's just so hard to make sense of the fact that this conversation that Lindsay's friend described as hopeful took place just days before January 24th, 2023. Yeah. And Erin, I think it really mirrors Patrick's testimony at the start of this trial. You remember what he said, that the day of the killing started as one of her best days. I mean, it really highlights that mental health challenges can change hour by hour. And I think that this is also something that doctors that I've been talking to have echoed as well. You know, there's a doctor named Catherine Berndorf. She's a psychiatrist here in New York, and she treats women with PPP. And she said to me, you know, you can present as normal one minute, and then those hallucinations, those voices, they hit you. And then suddenly, you're not living in reality anymore. We are learning so much. And it's this fluctuation that it seems both the prosecution and the defense, both of them, are using to bolster. to bolster their arguments. We also heard similar stories from some of the teachers of Clancy's three young children. This testimony was particularly difficult to listen to, because you could tell the teachers were so fond of these kids. Here's part of the testimony from a teacher at Cora's pre-K. How was Cora as a preschool student? Amazing. She was wonderful. Was she, in your opinion, ready? Was she ready for kindergarten? Yes. Chanel, there has to be a very specific reason that the prosecutors would ask these teachers to come to court, isn't there? I mean, I think the point prosecutors are trying to drive home here to the jurors is to define what was lost that day. I mean, these were three beautiful, young, promising children, and they're gone now. So you have this teacher taking to the stand, getting pretty emotional, talking about what it was like to care for Cora, who, of course, was the oldest child, just five years old. Chanel, as you may know, The Guardian calls this "America's saddest murder trial." And I think it may be. Three beautiful children are gone. The family of the defendant also is the family of the victims. But whatever the jury ultimately decides in this case, I think it's really going to matter. It could have a huge impact on how we talk about and treat maternal mental illness. And what we're learning is that Lindsey tried to get help. As she struggled with postpartum mental health issues, but that there may not be enough clear-cut, recognizable signs that can accurately predict when a person will develop psychosis or hurt their children. I mean, Erin, I think conversations around this are already happening. I don't know about you, but my social media feed is full of it. All of my group chats are talking about it. I was at a restaurant the other day and I heard women talking about Dr. Tufts. Like, I can't remember a time when a trial. Really took over public discourse in this way. This has become one of those cases that women everywhere are talking about, because I think it calls into question that larger issue that you just mentioned about maternal mental health. I mean, we don't really talk about that much. And this week I actually interviewed a woman who experienced postpartum psychosis. You know, her story had a ton of parallels to Lindsey's case, but what was different about her was, thankfully, she was able to get a diagnosis and then because of that, get the correct diagnosis. She was able to get the correct medications in time. But a doctor that I also interviewed who treats people with PPP or postpartum psychosis said that PPP, Erin, is actually not named as its own distinct category in the standard handbook that's used by mental health experts across the country. That's sort of like the medical Bible, right? And so what that means is a lot of doctors may not know what to look for. And if you don't know what to look for, you probably don't know how to diagnose it and you probably don't know how to treat it. So this doctor told me she thinks this case is a watershed moment that's really exposing a gap in the system. Well, I hope that that's one good thing that comes out of this. Janelle, thank you so much for joining us this week, and I'm sure we'll be talking to you again. Thanks, Erin. Now, we want to take this moment to say that if you or someone you know may be experiencing a mental health crisis, contact the 988-SUICIDE-AND-CRISIS-LIFELINE. Just call or you can text 988-SUICIDE-AND-CRISIS-LIFELINE. And if you're pregnant or have just had a baby, you can dial or text the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline at 1-833-TLC-MAMA, M-A-M-A. And we'll be back with another episode of Case by Case. Be sure to rate and review and let us know which cases you're following and which cases you'd like us to follow. The critically acclaimed series Colin from Accounts returns for a brand new season. You proposed to me, drunk, out of nowhere, at my best friend's wedding. I was being spontaneous. You didn't have a ring. It was just, it was embarrassing. All episodes streaming September 10th. Still will they? Won't they? Who cares? But what is it? We're friends. We are together-ly. We're friendly together. With a dog. Colin from Accounts, new season, streaming September 10th, only on Paramount+.