Treat kids in detention like kids, not criminals, says award-winning researcher Sanne Oostermeijer

[Music] Welcome to the Worth a Second Chance Podcast, where we explore true stories, challenges and solutions from the frontlines of Australia's Youth Justice Systems. My name is Sophie Rainer. [Music] Most of us know what a prison typically looks like. Cells, bars, locks, barbed wire, high fences, generally pretty harsh places. But picture this instead. Not hundreds of beds, but just H for the whole facility. Located in the neighbourhood, not hundreds of kilometres out of the way. An environment that feels more like a home than a jail, semi-open, not locked up, and where staff and residents have dynamic and respectful relationships. It's not a pipe drain, it's the idea that one Dr. Sune Ustamaya and architect Matthew Dwyer, the $30,000 Melbourne Design Challenge in 2018. Sana and Matthew's idea outlined best practices for the design of youth justice facilities, which could support young people's rehabilitation, and also help them get on to a better path after time in detention. When we think about the sort of life, scale, or more high security facilities that we usually see, we're actually communicating to that young person that they're being punished. I think even further than that, we're communicating that they're a criminal and that they're a fan of. That really reinforces for a young person who's still developing their sense of self, that they're identity, that reinforces that idea that they are a criminal. In today's episode, Sana shares how good design can lead to better outcomes and safer communities. Hi Sana, can you start by introducing yourself? Sure, so I'm currently a research fellow at the University of Melbourne, the love population and global health in the Centre for Mental Health. On the side, I also do some work in the Youth Justice space. I moved to Melbourne about two or three years ago from the Netherlands, where I worked on a evaluation of the Small Scale Youth Justice facilities. Then when I moved to Melbourne, I started working on a project with my partner, who works in architecture around, I guess, looking at best practice facilities around the world. We've put together some design guidelines around that for Victoria. We know in the Netherlands and in several other countries in Europe and elsewhere that prisons are designed very differently from how they are in Australia. A few years ago, Jesuit Social Services went on a pair of research trips to view justice facilities in Germany, Norway, Spain, the US, the UK and New Zealand. I'll link those reports in the notes for this episode. But on those trips, we saw firsthand just how effective small, home-like justice facilities are in rehabilitating people and reducing their risk of reoffending. But then here in Victoria, where we both live, the government's currently building a new youth prison at Cherry Creek, west of Melbourne, 140 beds, and a new adult prison with 1200 beds at Chisholm Road about 20 kilometres north of Jelong. That, to me, seems the opposite of the Dutch model. And maybe there's an argument to be made that there's unacceptable risk involved with smaller or more open facilities. But as a person who studies the design of those facilities, can you tell me, why do we need them over bigger prisons? Yeah, so I guess we started thinking about what do we expect the youth justice system to do or what do we expect in specific, specifically, the custodial system. So really, what we want is to divert young people away from a life of crime or further entrenching them in the justice system, with, I guess, a cost of being the most severe intervention for a young person. And ideally, we would want very small numbers of young people in custody, or maybe even zero young people, if that's a cost of ability. And so when you look at, I guess, important factors within a young person's life, that play a role, and I guess help a young person, either choose a different life path or to stay away from any defending behaviors. We, for example, see that education in school is really important. Social connections to the community and to their family. So when you then look at, I guess, large-scale facilities that are often pretty far away from the community and from a young person's community, that actually is counterproductive, I guess, in maintaining or building those things, those elements that play such an important role in helping a young person develop a different life path, or I guess to promote like healthy, positive development that listened to development. Yeah, and so for those very few young people who are in a custodial setting, what does an ideal facility involve? Yeah, when we start thinking about the ideal youth justice facility, I guess we won't like a safe and healthy environment for both young people and for staff. And what we see in our current facilities, there's several reports that highlight that actually at the moment, it's not that safe for either staff or for young people. And here we want to support staff in developing positive relationships. It's important that we can have individual approaches. So that's where I guess the size plays a role and where sort of small and our facilities. It's more easy to have that individual approach and to build a personal relationship with young people. And when we think about maintaining social connections or maintaining connections to school and education, in the community, that also becomes more difficult when the facility is further away, family, but has a harder time visiting, but even I guess the youth support services that have to access that young person, that becomes a bit more difficult as well. And so when we look at, I guess, the best practice facilities in Europe and in the US, we see that small-scale local or community-integrated facilities are actually much better equipped to build and maintain those elements that play such an important role in any young person's life. And on top of that, I think when we think about the goal being a small number, maybe even zero young people in these facilities, we so decarceration effectively, we need facilities that are flexible and adaptable. And I guess when you have a large-scale facility, it's not really best equipped to respond to that, or to be flexible and adaptable when the needs change. So yeah, those are just a few things that come to mind. There's a lot of talk about therapeutic models of care in youth justice settings, maybe most publicly in the Northern Territory, where in 2017, the Royal Commission into the Protection and Detention of Children recommended therapeutic approaches in detention settings. But talk me through this slowly. What do we actually mean when we say therapeutic in the context of correctional facilities? Yeah, so I guess when we say therapeutic, we mean having a good effect on body and wellbeing and health. And we see that a lot of young people in custody struggle with mental health problems and have experienced trauma and neglect. So it's really important to think about providing therapeutic environment. And the way we have thought about it in the design guide is, I guess there's sort of several layers to it. So there's good design. So we can think about having access to nature or gardens, but also good ventilation, having access to natural light. Then secondly, you can take that a little bit further and say, the environment shouldn't do any further harm to the person in that environment. And then when you take that even a little bit further, and I think that's sort of where the therapeutic part comes in is, that the environment can actually play a role in reducing stress and promoting, actively promoting wellbeing. And so what we've seen in the small scale youth justice facilities is that, basically, they look like a living space that kind of look home like. Because, yeah, I guess those elements that play a role in wellbeing are actually the elements that we've applied to our homes, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it does make sense, because I guess if you're wanting a detention facility to help a young person rehabilitate and address the drivers of their offending and change their behaviour, it's going to be a lot harder to behave well if you're not feeling well. And then maybe for a young person in detention, if you're in a space that's nicer, and which looks more like a home, then you feel more worthy of having those things in your life. And it's sort of a demonstration from the justice sector, saying you are allowed these things, you're allowed nice things, and you're allowed access to a nice space that makes you feel safe and comfortable. I think you're completely right there. So when we think about the sort of life scale or more higher security facilities that we usually see, we're actually communicating to that young person that they're being punished. I think even further than that, we're communicating that they're a criminal and that they're an offender. So that really reinforces for a young person who's still developing this. sense of self, their identity, that reinforces that idea that they are a criminal, which again, when we think about what do we want from the custodial youth justice facilities, we want to divert them away from a life of crime. So we want them to be able to imagine themselves as a normal healthy young person with the ability to achieve their life goals and what we're actually doing when we're communicating that element of punishment and then sort of reinforcing that identity as a criminal, we're actually creating the opposite, I guess, we're not allowing them to imagine themselves as a healthy teenager who has the ability to achieve their life goals. So I think why it's important or what's important about the small scale youth justice facilities, I guess they can be a sense of safety and stability in being home like and I think what's important to mention because sometimes you hear people kind of thinking about small scale facilities or home like facilities, you know, it shouldn't be a holiday, but even though the environment or the design might be more home like, it doesn't mean it's a holiday, it's actually not a holiday at all. So when you, I think the larger-kept scale facilities allow young people in that space because it's so large-scale and they're just one of many young people, it's easier to dissociate a bit, I think, in that space and dissociate a bit from why you're there or what you're supposed to do. So in that sense, the small scale facility is not a holiday at all because there's a lot of focus on thinking about your goals and what you want to achieve, thinking about your behaviour, reflecting on your behaviour. And that's definitely something that we've heard from young people that we've met in these small scale facilities and sometimes they even say, "Oh, I prefer a large scale facility because I need to talk all the time here and I don't like talking." So while the environment is home like, because you want to create that sort of sense of safety and stability, it's not like a holiday at all, they're actually doing a lot of work around reflecting on their selves, on their behaviour and on their life goals. It sounds like it's quite easy for a young person in a large-scale facility to slide under the radar and avoid that kind of work on themselves that you were just describing. And there are many good reasons why a young person might want to do that. I'm not saying they're, you know, copying out of the work on themselves. I'm thinking of the fact that two thirds of young people in detention here in Victoria have experienced trauma or abuse or neglect and half of them have involvement with child protection and half again are receiving mental health treatment. So it's a really complex group of young people who have been through some really difficult things, so opening up could be hard. And I'm wondering about one other element of this and that's self-esteem. Talk to me about how building self-esteem helps reduce rates of rearfending and how the built environment of a youth justice facility can contribute to this. Oh yeah, sure. So yeah, again, I guess we want to help young people achieve their life goals without engaging in crime or inflicting harm on people. And we see that young people like custody often have a history of trauma and abuse and they struggle with mental health problems. And also often come from, I guess, social disadvantage backgrounds. So yeah, and their offending behaviors or crime is often also a response to a lot of those difficulties. So I think we need to sort of acknowledge that there are broader psychosocial factors that play a role in this young person's life, not to say that that would be an excuse, but I think it would be, I guess, oversimplifying it if we would ignore those factors as well. So we've looked at using a resilience framework or resilience theory to look at how youth justice facilities can best help young people achieve their life goals. And so resilience being the ability to respond to adversity in life using or utilizing your social and emotional skills. And so that's where self-esteem and coping just mechanisms play a really important role. And yeah, so and it also offers, I guess, a more holistic approach to the whole thing. I guess when you acknowledged that those psychosocial factors play a really important role, and taking that more holistic approach and acknowledging that young people have an experience of adversities in their life. We want to equip these young people to be able to respond to that and work through that. But in order to do that, you want to build their self-esteem and you want to build their coping mechanisms. Thanks, Sana. That was Sana Ustamaya speaking to Worth a Second Chance about how small-scale youth justice facilities can enable rehabilitation and reduce rear fending. Worth a Second Chance is a community campaign from Jesuit Social Services. We're calling for a more fair, humane and effective youth justice system and we need your help. Learn more and join the campaign at worthers SecondChance.com.au. Thanks to Sana Ustamaya for speaking with us today and you can find new conversations every second Wednesday. My name is Sophie Rainer and this was Worth a Second Chance. [Music]