Treasury Networking Strategies That Create Long-Term Career Growth

This week's podcast recorded live at Carrival Live in 2026. Three great guests, Ben, Sabrina and Brian. Have a little listen to them first and then we'll get on with the show. And so I had to come in and kind of be the bad guy but I was okay with it because I always explained to my team that if you issue a payment that ends up being fraudulent for some reason because you don't know exactly what's going on. And by the way, a vendor master file, change and banking information, that process is a well-controlled process and it's in place on purpose. And a manual payment means that everything's manual that goes with it. The accounting is manual. The payment entry is manual. The collection of information is manual. And I just made it very clear to my team, you know, if you do something and it ends up being bad, like I can't stop you. But what I can say is if we come in and we have to be the bad guy to change the process and put in the control. That's a defendable move. And I know that my boss and the head of internal controls and everybody else is going to be okay that I've maybe made some people in legal mad because I can explain why I've done it. Well, I say it's because I jumped around because it's an adult ADHD. I got to keep moving and being curious and that's one of the things that for me it's to quote the great Ted Lasso be curious, not a judgemental. And what I bring is the aspect of being able to take back and look at the process and how to develop it and not be judgemental to why they're doing it the way they're doing at the time. And I think that's one of the rest of the work that you're always moving and trying to re-innovate and you have to be adaptive. And I think that's really helped me exceed in my career with Treasury is because I can't adapt and apply. It's the fact that if I can't find the solutions to the problem, I can step away. And that's why I like Treasury too is because I can turn around and go to another department and help them out with something and then integrate that in with Treasury. And then I can always go back to that problem and it's easy to find that solution. And it also allows you to work with other departments and pick their brain to. I think that is one of the things that allowed me to stand out. And the other thing I'd say is, be easy to work with. I mean, one of the things is you want to earn a reputation that if somebody has a problem or an issue, you help solve it and be easy to work with approachable and build that reputation early. There you go. Some great quotes from those guys, which tells you exactly why I should be listening to today's show as always. I just introduced them a little bit more. I've got Ben Seal, Director of Global Treasury and Risk Management at Inotive. I've got Sabrina Janulis, Director of Treasury at Paxdale International and Brian Gittelman, Deputy Treasurer at Capitas. Three great guests live on stage for a panel, Carriva Live over in Vegas. Great session. Really enjoyed it. We talked a lot about things. You know, their Treasury careers and everything. It's the March of AI, how they're filtering through it. The rest of their Treasury lives, the lot. So I hope you enjoy it. Let's get on with the show. Thank you very much. This is what I do. I talk to you guys. My main job is as a Treasury recruiter. So I help you find new opportunities, new roles. In addition to that, I also do a podcast. A lot of people are like, "Oh, you do a podcast?" What? A couple of them? No, we've now done 425, 250,000 downloads. But more for you guys in this room, you get CTP credits for listening. Yeah. Now you're looking, aren't you? So that's the team. I'm going to introduce my panel in a second. This is going to be the structure of the session. But before we do that, I'm actually going to ask you. A few of you I can see looking down at your phones. I wonder if your company is paying extra for the time you're giving them. Are they investing in you by you looking at these guys giving you energy? So first of all, I'm going to get each of my panelists to introduce themselves. We'll go through their Treasury careers, how they started, where they are now, where they see themselves, and the Treasury profession go to next. There will be chance for Q&A at the end. We'll run to time as well. And then we'll do some takeaways. So firstly, lovely Sabrina. We told her not to do karaoke, but there is a danger. But I'm really good. Yeah, the AC, well, there's a worry about it. I am really good. So I'm Sabrina Janulus. I'm a director of Treasury at Baxter International. I manage our Americas and APAC cash management teams and also Treasury operations. Started my career at Deloitte. I did five years in the forensic and dispute group doing fraud investigation, litigation support. And then moved to Baxter. I've been with Baxter for about 15 years. I moved into Baxter in audit, then spent two years there, went into internal controls. Then from internal controls was asked to take a role in our business transformation office. We went through a divestiture in 2015 and had a lot of cost reduction that needed to be done as a result of that divestiture. And so I was leading our key operating expense reduction project. And then in 2020, I had twins. So in February, right before the everything shut down. When I returned from maternity leave, I got a phone call from our treasure. I'd never met her before. She was new six months prior to that. And she said, she started giving me a hard sell on a role, a Treasury transformation role. And she said at the end of it, she said, "The role is yours if you want it." And I said, you know, I'm shocked. I'm surprised. We've never met each other. I don't even know why you're calling me. I don't know Treasury. I don't know cash. I actually don't know anybody on your team and I've been here for 10 years. And so she said, well, that's actually exactly why I called you is because I've heard your name. I've heard really great things. A lot of leaders really support you. And I'm looking for somebody who can bring that cross-functional alignment and work well with others and help lead a transformation so that people do know who Treasury is. And so I took that role and it was a lateral. And actually at the time, I was in a position where I was possibly going to be promoted into a director position. But I gave up that promotion to take this new opportunity because I knew it was a skill that I would learn, something brand new. The promotion was going to be an audit. I kind of hated audit. So it wasn't that big of a decision, I would say. And so I took a leap of faith, moved into Treasury. And after two years doing transformation, I led the Kairiba implementation in that role. And then also did some, we did a big finance transformation with all of the other functions. And my boss at the time who was the director left the company and I was then offered her role. And so that's how I came into the role that I'm in right now. And I will say when I came into Treasury, I was very much like, I'm not a Treasury, like every time I got on a call, I'd be like, I'm not a Treasury person. I just want to like make sure everybody knows. Like there was a lot of like imposter syndrome. And I thought I would only be in Treasury for two years. So it was like very shocking to me when I took the role that was like a real Treasury role. And then all of a sudden I couldn't tell people I wasn't a Treasury person. And so now I've been in this role for about three years or four years. I've been in Treasury now six years. So it's been the best career decision that I've personally made. Unexpected. So we'll pass across to Ben. Ben will introduce himself and Ben has been on the podcast. So you can't catch up with this story as well. But Ben, over to you. Yeah, thank you for the introduction. And thank you for joining the panelists. And thank you, firstly to everybody coming and showing up today. And he's going to listen to podcasts in the future. But my name is Benjamin Seal, the director of the Global Treasury and Risk Management for a company called Inetive. But I always say that my career passes a little bit different than everybody else. And as you speak to people in your network, you'll find out nobody's typically nobody has that linear pathway. But from my pathway, it's more like a child took a crayon and you just had to draw a straight line. And then he hopped on a roller coaster. So it's all the place. And the reason why is because I have a background also in the medical field. I come out of school. I was a merchant medical technician. I became a restorative therapist. But my segue into the Treasury space was I started an accounts receivable as an account analyst. And I transitioned into another company managing the business analyst in the shared service department, the credit manager and director of shared services. And for a company called San Vello. We went through a restructuring, but prior to restructuring, they wanted to restructure their Treasury department. And my boss, boss's boss at the time asked me to come in and take over the department based on my process improvement achievements. So with the whole entire process, loved it, glad I did it. And we did a lot of stuff during COVID. I think I always say that if you live through COVID as a Treasury professional, you probably had 20 more years of your life. Like it was just bad. Like in the experience. Because I've been in Treasury now for going on 10 years. And I do feel like it's been like 20 years just because of COVID. And I've always typically been a department of one. So I'd three years ago transitioned to Inetif, which is a life science contract research organization based out of Indianapolis, Indiana. And I'm remote based. But it's probably been the best decision I've ever made. Because I never had that global aspect to touch the amea and no loans in various other countries in that. And that's really greatly improved my understanding of global banking as well. And like I said, it's been the probably best transition I've made. I love the company, I love the people. And that's the best thing is if you find a company that you have great employees, great bosses, it just makes a difference. I'll hand over to Brian. All right. Hello all. Pleasure to be here on the best Treasury podcast in the world. Thank you. I'm paying for that. Brian Gittleman, I'm Deputy Treasurer for Capitus, where a small business lender based in Times Square in New York City. We extend credit or loans to small businesses. Usually fill that up in a warehouse and we ABS those deals out. We usually issue one or two deals a year. We're working on one now. How I got into Treasury was a finance major. And I got in my head that I wanted to be an attorney. And I want to. to law school, Villanova Law School, right outside of Philadelphia. And I was there. I listened about a semester. I thought, you know, let me go back to basics. Let me try to find a finance job. And I was lucky enough to land with an organizational, large-foot-out service company called Aaron Mark, as a banking analyst. And I've been in treasury longer than I care to admit, but I was earning my tea, probably saving 300 K a year, getting paid substantially less at the time, because like I said, I've been in treasury for a long time. After one of my colleagues had left for a chemical company, or the FMC Corporation, he invited me to come along with him after him being there a few months. He thought there was a need for some strong cash management. So I went over to the C Corporation. And we really went from a mid-tier, diversified chemical company to one of the largest agricultural chemical companies in the world. So to be with the company during that growth period was certainly an experience. After on the path for FMC Corporation to become a focused chemical company, one of the things that they decided to do was spin off their lithium division. And I was tapped to stand up the treasury organization at a concern called Live In, which is now part of Rio Tinto. And that was probably where I had the most hands on in building and implementing a treasury management system, as well as coming up with policies, controls, et cetera. After being in startup land for a few years, I had an opportunity at a very large insurer, which, child insurance, I took that role. And there was, I could see some restructuring going on. And one of the things that I did, which allowed me to parlay my experience into working for a finance organization that lends out money is I took a certificate program through Walton for FMCAC. And that allowed me to become a deputy treasurer over along with other experience at Capitus. Nice. We're going to explore with each the panelist how they've made their career moves when it moves. There you go. So we'll come back to you Sabrina. So you were a forensic accountant into treasury, natural step, obviously. But joking aside, what transferable skills did you find that you brought from that? And then again, for this audience listening, they might move from accounting. What are the things that you kept with you, if you like? So I have a CFE, so a certified fraud examiner. I'm also a CPA. And then most recently, now a CTP. So we were joking. I like to collect letters. Yeah. And I would say the biggest thing. So Baxter had people in their treasury department historically that were in their treasury department for many years. And what that means is that some of the processes stayed the same for many years. And none of them, they all were treasury people at the core. So they did their entire career in treasury. So the thing that I think I was able to come in and add value is I do have a background where I am skeptical. And I also understand what a good solid control environment is. And so an example is when I came in, there were a lot of manual payments that certain teams relied on us to make because they were their friends. It wasn't because there was a good reason that we were necessarily doing them. It was just that was what they were allowed to do. And so I had to come in and kind of be the bad guy, but I was OK with it because I always explained to my team that if you issue a payment that ends up being fraudulent for some reason because you don't know exactly what's going on. And by the way, a vendor master file, change, and banking information, that process is a well-controlled process. And it's in place on purpose. And I just made it very clear to my team, if you do something and it ends up being bad, I can't stop you. But what I can say is if we come in and we have to be the bad guy to change the process and put in the control, that's a defendable move. And I know that my boss and the head of internal controls and everybody else is going to be OK that I've maybe made some people in legal mad because I can explain why I've done it. And so I think that was one of the biggest transferable skills or things that I was able to bring to the team that kind of made things better and was able to improve processes and definitely make audit and internal controls a lot happier when they came in and did our socks testing and stuff. So with you Ben, you've got a quite different background. You went very quickly past it. Could you explain for the audience that you were actually a therapist as well within respiration and you did that differently? And then you came into treasuries, so it came into that. And then, how come? What about your career ladder? How come you've fallen in love with treasuries? I got to keep moving and being curious. And that's one of the things that for me, it's to quote the great Ted Lasso, be curious, non-judgemental. And what I bring is the aspect of being on take back and look at the process and how to develop it and not be judgmental to why they're doing it the way they're doing at the time. And I think that's one of the rest of the work that you're always moving and trying to re-innovate. And you have to be adaptive. And I think that's really helped me exceed in my career with treasury is because I can adapt in the fly. And even that with adult ADHD, I joke about, is the fact that if I can't find the solutions, the problem I can step away. And that's why I like treasuries too, is because I can turn around and go to another department and help them out with something. And then integrate that in with treasury. So, and then I can always go back to that problem and it's easy to find that solution. And also allows you to work with other departments and pick their brain too. - And I know that you've also partnered with the business very well and you've moved industry recently. So you were in envelopes and everything else. And now you're in sort of dis-explained and past couple of companies and how that's different in treasury terms. - Yes, when I first started off, it was actually manufacturing with the powder metal injection. But with the treasurer and with that, it was with San Vello. So it was a leading manufacturer of envelopes in North America. And you know, I told them I too, you know, with manufacturing, it widgets the widget. You know, it's easy to kind of cash flow and you know your your your your your your your your out. But when you go into a life science organization, which is contract research organization, it's more for biotech. It's more scientific. And you're working with excellent brilliant people. But because of the kind of the lumpiness of some of the collections and stuff, you have to do a little bit more diving on the cash forecast, disbursements a little bit more different than you would with the manufacturing. So it's different. I really like it. It's like I said, I've been there for three years and it feels like they want. I learned something every day. I never the smartest one in the room. And everybody's always willing to provide the education about the company, the science. And it's just amazing. - Professor Costa, Brian, with your career, you've gone from analyst all the way up to deputy treasurer so far. We've got a room here of a lot of people at earlier stage of their careers. What are the moments that you know, the standout for you, the pivotal moments that perhaps other people should think, oh, I should do that. Or what were your bits? - Sure. So when I came into treasurer, I liked it. I liked what I was doing. I didn't want to analyze bank fees forever. But I did like being exposed to the capital market side of treasurer, the cash management, liquidity, forecasting. I liked all that. And even though my focus was on bank fees. So since it was a place I wanted to be, I thought to myself, okay, I just finished up. And MBA. So after dropping out of law school, I did continue my education, just which I think is important. But with finding treasurer, I committed to, I was in study mode and I said, you know what, let me do the CTP now. And I did that shortly after I received my MBA. And I really think that allowed me to learn more about just more than just my company's treasury department look like. What other treasury departments can look like. And the breadth and depth of the treasury function. And I think that is one of the things that allowed me to stand out. And the other thing I'd say is, hey, try, be easy to work with. I mean, one of the things is you wanna earn a reputation that if somebody has a problem or an issue, you help solve it and be easy to work with, approachable and build that reputation early. And we'll stay with you for a moment. When you went to one of your previous roles, Arcadian, you'd gone in, there was a blank sheet of paper. What was your checklist? We talk a lot on the podcast each week when people have gone into roles and they're like, right, we've got to get this right. Is it a cash for exchange or what the, you know, some people was just talking there as well. You know, those are the right things to do. What would you say? - I would say that one of the first things that you'd wanna set up, especially if there's any complexity to the organization is a treasury management system. And we're, so that was one of the first things to implement. The other thing is you wanna choose a good banking partner from my experience in working with many banks at the larger company that was spinning off live in than Arcadian, lithium. I had preferences on which systems that I liked working with, which bankers I liked working with. And I was able to carry over my past experiences, again getting back to who was easy to work with. What hurdles were easy? to work with. What technology was easy to work with? Who created that easy to work with an approachable reputation with me? And that's who I wound up giving business to as far as banking. Of course, policies and procedures, that's, you can't just copy and paste policies and procedures from a larger organization into a smaller one. That has to be, there's different risk tolerances, there's different cost of capital, there's all sorts of different other considerations to make. But we were fortunate enough to help, there was a major accounting firm that was involved in the split, so to speak, or the spin-off. So they were there to assist as well. But I know who I wanted to work with, I know what we needed. And I think that was pivotal in understanding. Okay. We're coming back to Ben now. Ben, we're here at Carrible Live, technology, lots of different vendors in the room, there's lots of tech chat, particularly at the moment, the advancing. How do you see through it? How do you filter through all the noise that's coming through for you as a treasurer, and then we'll do the same to your sales subrime as well. No, I'm good, I've done this before. Yeah, I can tell. I'm closer to that question. I don't know, it's really just to kind of network with all individuals and kind of listen to the webinars and stuff. That's how you feed through what's best for you. So you listen to the information, and I would say, too, you have to know the past nor know where you're going. So you have to have the data there to be able to even take advantage of that technology, especially with AI coming. If you don't have the technology or technology like Carrible with historical data, you're going to be behind the Able. And that's where you got to get it going. But yeah, it's networking, speaking to the vendors, getting getting the information. I mean, at lunch, I was speaking to an individual that does banking for me as an advisor. That's why our next step is doing a cash pool system, but I didn't know how to set it up. I've never had that experience. So just doing that, and then she can provide that guidance to me now to how to do that. So it's very helpful. Sabrina, and we will ask you to bring the same question, because you've got some good views on it, so, Liberty. I would say, I mean, I'm skeptical. I already said that. I would say one of the things that I always try to do, and I'm like looking at new technology, is ask a lot of questions and also ask, okay, in order for this to be successful, what is the level of information or data that is required? Because I will say, even when we did implement Carrible originally, we had a lot of delays in that project going live, because nobody told us, in order for this to be successful, you need X, Y, and Z first. And so then we kind of got caught up in a lot of delays, because we were having the fixed things that we didn't know needed to be fixed until we were in the middle of the project. And also understanding that when you're being presented a new technology, whether it be by a consultant or the technology company itself, they're going to show you the best case scenario. It's filtered information. They're going to press a button. It's going to work perfectly, and that is not the reality. So understanding that sometimes it looks pretty, but you can't always trust. That's how it's going to work when you move forward. So just make sure you ask a lot of questions and get other people's feedback and know who the people or groups are that you can ask for information. I think Treasury is a very lucky, like one of the things I love about Treasury compared to the other roles that I've been in is that there's a big external network. And so you can go to your banks and they'll tell you advice for free. Now what I'll say is, we did a global cash pooling, notional pooling, presentation. We asked three banks to come and present to us on it last year. All three of them recommended something completely different from the other ones. And I would say, after the first one, I was like, "Okay, yeah, this makes sense." And then we went to the second one and I was like, "Well, this makes less sense," because they're saying opposite of what that one said. And then I got to the third one and was like, "Well, I didn't know there was a third option for this." So you have to kind of also understand the place that those people are coming from. If they're trying to sell you something, they may be tailoring it to that. But at the end of the day, they will come and consult for you for free, which is not normal. I would say in other industries, you're not going to find a lot of free help. And then there's also peer groups and things like that that you can kind of reach out to or through Kyrie. I know I've done a lot of referral calls for the consultants that implemented Kyrieba and for Kyrieba itself. And those are ways, like, if you want to be connected with somebody, you can go to those people as resources to just say, like, "Hey, I just want to talk to somebody who already does this and see how they made it work." And just like, understanding who are your resources, I think, is the best thing you can do. Bussard, girls, do you Brian, but just before we do, one of my upcoming guests, actually, or I'm interviewing a Luxembourg later this year, John Follie, DiWell, International Treasurer, Johnson Controls, he said, Mike, and we were doing a session a few years ago now. And he would say, "If you employ a new person, you take references, right?" It was like, "Yeah, we do them for people and our clients." And they said, "If you're bringing in new treasury system, how many references do you take? How many past customers are there? Not there? They're pinnacle clients and they're great and stuff. Who else do you ask?" Because a lot of people just go, "Oh, yeah, well, this is a really good system. It looks really great, exactly to your point." And he was saying, "Yeah, reference them. Get at least two or three of their customers. What's the good bad and the ugly?" And that was one of the key things he brought up. Brian, over to you. I would say, sure, I would say, talk to people. And that's echoing what you're saying, Mike, Sabrina, Ben. There's a lot of resources. There's a large community that you can be a part of. There's a national organization. There's regional organizations for treasury, which I find great value. And there's membership organizations as well. I would say, talk to people. I'd also use the old adage, if the insurance company, if you're not using somebody, certified, they'll make you get three quotes. And I think that once you start seeing the different offerings for tech providers and banking services, whatever the case might be, you start getting more and more insight on that. I think it's important to come to conferences, networking events, and also stay well-read. When you are looking at tech stack, I'd also say, you want to see you, everything can be integrated, but at what cost? Are there pre-existing APIs between systems? That's one of the big things that I'm very cognizant of, especially seeing when there's not out of the box APIs, what's involved. This podcast is in May of where it has no sponsors, has no ads. Nobody pays me to record these episodes. I make it because I love corporate treasury. I don't want to help treasury professionals just like you. If you're getting value from this, there's a couple of things I'd ask. Share it with your friends, tell them about it, how you've enjoyed it, if it's helping you in your treasury career, fantastic. But then, maybe connect with me on LinkedIn. Mike Richards, I'm there. You can actually look me up. My URL is actually linkedin.com/MRTREASURE. Or MrTREASURE, if you want to call it that. Hit connect. Trombo Quick Note, say you found me through the podcast on Apple or Spotify. I read every single message and yes, I will reply. There's no funnel, no sales pitch, it's just a chance to say hello, stay in touch and see what I can do to help. So anyway, let's get back to the episode. And we'll stay with you for a moment as well. What I will say, actually, before we next question, we've got about 10, 15 minutes left. So you are going to get a chance to ask these guys some questions. So do think of them because you don't often get the chance to actually quiz some treasurers. Brian, we're going to just talk about banking relationships and banking partnerships because I think it's something that has been coming up from here and some of the people. How do you maintain those relationships with banks when you haven't got too much going on? It's a quiet period or unsettled and you still want to keep them, you know, keep them, they know there's not much wallet share. How do you keep on going with those guys? What's your seat? Well, I think you want to keep, first of all, you don't want to put too much on your plate then you can handle. I know a lot of organizations are stuck with having 12, 15, 20 banks and I understand that that might be the case at a larger organization because of acquisitions and whatnot. But I think a handful of banking partners will give you the diversification that you need, the appropriate comparison between strengths and weaknesses and also better views into pricing as well. We usually have a cadence of at one organization, we had a bank week because we had so many bankers, they would come in once a week. I would say with where I am at Capitice, since we do have so much going on and we don't necessarily need to have a bank week or bank quarter where different banks come in for the whole week, we are in constant contact with our banking partners. And I mean, for us, we always keep a lease manual meeting in place, but I always find me at the rep at least quarterly, but it's always touching base points because I'm always looking at ways of looking at process improvements for our banking relationships as well. So constantly staying in contact and seeing what their diversification is there, what their viewpoints are because I'll say before is you never know where the solution can come from. So, and they've been, they have had their clients that they can refer to as well if you need assistance with items or any references. So just staying in contact with those risks on a constant basis, tell them what you're working on, maybe they have a my-have-solution or a client that's been through the same, same ordeal as well. So at Backster, we have 80 operational banks. When I started in my role six years ago, we had 120, so we've done a lot of work. That was actually one of the big projects and things that I've been working on with my teams that's trying to reduce banking relationships. So We've made a pretty big effort. Only six of them are strategic from an operational standpoint, and then we have 12 that are in our revolver. And those aren't-- the 12 that are in the revolver are not necessarily all in our operational banking. It does become complicated when I have a-- maybe want to make a change to make things more efficient on the cash management side, but that bank is in the revolver. But-- and so there's a push and pull, I think, from both teams where we kind of have to make sure there's an alignment from a strategy perspective. But it can be rather challenging in a company, I think, as big as mine, and with so much wallet share that we have to worry about. I'm interested, though, to find out about your bank week. Did you not let anybody come in except for that one week per year? Pretty obvious. Here. I want more. You can't talk to him afterwards. I know. The Q&A is in a minute. Sorry about her. Hey, you know, you get first steps. So yes, yes, we had so many banks at the large insurer. We would dedicate one week. Everybody had to be on site. And we had back-to-back meetings for a whole week annually. And do we have like 51 weeks out of the year? Nobody came? Well, occasionally we would get called or if we were working on projects. So and to your point, we had really three strategic banks. The rest of them, again, were in the revolver or were for a special purpose because of various countries who we were doing business in. But yeah, it was with so many, you had a schedule. And bankers would come in. That's right, to do it. So we're going to go to Q&A in a second. But one question to each of you, we'll go back from you, Brian. Do you have a microphone? Advice to your younger self, or maybe some of the advice that you give to, again, we've got treasure professionals here coming up through the ranks and starting. What advice would you give to those guys? Maybe you do when you're over a coffee or your team or maybe looking back at yourself? What earlier advice? Looking back, the advice that I would give-- and I know that this isn't for everybody. But I just feel that my network and the organizations that have been able to be a part of have increased exponentially once I started working for a New York-based company. The amount of people you can meet and organizations and fountains of knowledge that you can sit from, whether it be an industry-specific event or people that you talk to at rating agencies or weren't structured finance or at law firms or at the local treasury management group, which is extremely active in NYC. So looking back, yeah, I wish that I worked in NYC sooner than I did. The other thing that I'd suggest is it took me a while to find-- I studied. I majored in finance and got my MBA in finance. But it's so different working for a finance-based organization where we manufacture financial products. It's-- everything is treasury-related at a finance organization where, of course, treasury touches everything in any type of organization, but especially a financial services company. And I just-- I'm just really happy with the industry being involved with that because it's where my interests truly lie. Yeah, Ben, the youngest self or to some of the younger members of the-- earlier in that career. I feel like I could write a book on this, by the way. But mainly focus on being intentional with your experience or your knowledge getting at your CTP. Find a mentor. Networking-- but the big thing is find that mentor to lead you and guide you. But make sure it's the right mentor to. Fitch your personality. The one that actually has the experience of CTP, goes to AFP, goes to networking, that it can help you along the way. Because there's a lot of experience out there. It's just fun, that right connection. For me, it's relationship building and the importance of it. So I always say that I've been very lucky at Baxter. Since I came into Baxter, every role that I've had in this 15-year journey, somebody came to me and said, I want you for this role. I haven't applied to anything since then. And it's not actually luck. Really what it is is I built relationships. And even though I mentioned it at the beginning, I didn't love my time and audit. But my time and audit was the real reason why I've actually gotten at least three or four of my roles since then is because I went in and I approached audit differently from maybe others on the team. And I built relationships. And people actually liked me when I audited them, which was unique. And so-- But really, nobody's going to advocate for you the way that you should be advocating for yourself. And there's a lot of importance in making sure that you do put in the time that people like to work with you. And just knowing that you don't know necessarily who your next boss is going to be or who will tap you on the shoulder. So be kind and try to work well with others and volunteer for things. And the other, I guess, I have one other thing, which is, if somebody does tap me on the shoulder and say, hey, I think I have a role that's really good for you, I'm always open to listening to what it is. Even though I don't necessarily see why at the time, the Treasury one for me was like, that one completely through me. I was like, I don't have a finance degree. I'm at accountant. I have an accounting, bachelor's and master's. So I don't even have that background. I've never done true finance. And it was a completely new thing. But also, I knew that it was going to give me a new skill and a new career that I didn't have as an option before. And so just be open to listening, because you just never know what your next good opportunity will be. So questions from you guys. I've got this for a second. Who's got a question? They had to be right at the back as well. There you go. Yeah, I guess my question would be me. So we originally at like our annual review and my interview spaces, competitive and everything. But how do you position yourself for that next position or promotion? And how can you advocate for yourself with that? Great question. So who wants to take that first? One of you put your hand up. Then you get what Brian was first. One of the things that I think is important to do is if you don't have a one-on-one with your manager, you should probably set one up regular cadence, whether mine's every other week, at least once a month. I think that's important. I think it's also important to maybe once a quarter every twice a year, something like that, have skip level meetings and touch points with your bosses boss. One thing that I think really helps clarify what you're working on and why you matter is between those one-on-ones, you come up with a list. OK, these are the wins from the last one-on-one. And this is what I'm working on. And then you just keep racking up those wins. You save those. Usually we have a system called-- it's a tracking system that's online. Or you can use what just put it on email. But you can take those documents, run it through AI. And it'll put together a nice year-end right up. Well, I'll chip in here as well. Emma Haywood is one of my past podcast guests. She's great from Dowlace Group. And I've talked about this on a couple of the podcast synths. And she's a treasurer. And she measures her team and herself every week. But what she does, she sits down, has a coffee with herself on a Friday morning. Right, what have we achieved as a team this week? Send her an email, have a self an email. What she achieves as a treasurer. Because there's nothing worse as she said. The CFO comes up to you and goes, how have we got on this week? How have we got on this month? And she's like, whoa, hang on. Because they're just swinging by your desk. And actually, she's going, do you know what? And as Brian said, she summarizes it on a monthly basis. Just puts it now. You can use chat.com.com. And everything else puts it in there. And so this month, we've saved this. This month, we've reduced this cost. And they're like, oh, wow. Because you've actually given it some value, if you like. And given it some clarity. So that's one of the other ways that I think that people have done it. Now, I think you can do questions afterwards. I'm going to let you do that because I do them on a run to time. Because otherwise, look at Steve. Yeah, he gets angry. Yeah, watch him. But we've got some great takeaways for you. So Sabrina, we'll come to you first of all. We'll grab the microphone. So it's all right. I don't remember what I said here. No, no, where you can sort of. Just make it up. Have a read. But they go there. I've got out that way. OK. Yeah. So don't chase the promotion. Number one, there have been a few times where I have taken lateral moves. Treasury was one of them. And be open to understanding what skill or new thing you can learn that will just make you more valuable in the future that can kind of tack on to the skills that you already have. A promotion is one way to get new opportunities. But trying something new is another way. And it does work out sometimes. It's not always maybe. But in my experience, it worked out very well. Yeah, I guess the other one is-- I think a lot of people do tend to sometimes understand their part of a process. But they don't necessarily understand how it flows end to end in other areas that it's touching. So in Treasury, you've got cash on both sides. The accounts receivable team, the accounts payable team. You're also starting with an invoice. trying to understand. And when you do something, who is affected by it? And I think the biggest example in my role right now are the manual payments. One of the benefits of me saying, we're not going to do manual payments anymore, is that it pushes people to Kupa, which is our PO system, which automates the payment and the vendor master part and the accounting flows. If we do a manual payment, four other teams suffer with that manual payment along with us. And so understanding by making one decision, you're not only necessarily impacting yourself. - Yeah, hoping others as well. So Ben, two big items here. One is a BS bunch. Absorb everything around you. Go to the networking events, go to the conferences, and just listen to them absorb. 'Cause you never know where you're going to get the next idea for you guys. The next one's going to be for a speak less, listen more. Everybody wants to talk, but you don't learn anything that way. You can go right through one here and out the other. So you just got to continuously, continue to listen to people that's underneath you above you, just because you never know what the next idea is going to come from. And then a third one, just to kind of reinforce the question before was just advocate for yourself. That's the big thing to advocate for yourself. You want the next promotion to advocate, take daily journals, put down what you're doing that day, and then when you're accomplished, mark it off. That's the greatest feeling in the world when you mark off a goal. - All right, well, I did have, initially had seven takeaways, but-- - You did. (laughing) - But we only had an hour. - We only had an hour. So again, I think if you like Treasury, if it's where you want to be, go for the CTP, hands down. I'd also say as far as, hey, deliver value to your company. And if you need to build a raft or get certified in whatever you want to specialize in or your industry area of interest, then do so. And also, I'd say, and I can wind up doing this too much in New York, being part of industry events and networking events and whatnot, but you still have to get your work done, right? So I try to limit that to maybe once a week. - Yeah. (laughing) He does. So that's one of the things hopefully you've been doing with the guys past few days, talk to people, and actually, well, it comes back to Ben's as well. It's about listening with purpose, but not just for yourself, actually to help them and build your network. That was one of the key bits. When you go away from this conference, the worst thing you can do is just, when I was connecting with people, the past couple of days we linked in, I was going, we met, we spoke about this, and people were like, wow, you actually remembered it. Actually, show an interest. So it goes back to the first bit. Don't just go all linked in, connect without a message. Don't do on your phones. You know, in fact, it's getting better on phones with linked in, but then you can build a network, because that network will help you. Now, talking about that, we'll finish on. This is the challenge. So when you, you've still got an hour or so, couple of hours, there's some closing drinks, you'll see Steve at the bar, that's well, he'll be handing them out hopefully. But what I want you to do is make it least, before you go away, maybe even just as you're walking out here, and next event you go to, and Brian does it very well. Make a couple of connections, because you never know what that's going to do. You know, what we do in our main events, you know, when we've done them in New York, and we say, you've got to meet five new people. And the people come up afterwards, and they go, oh my god, I'm at five. And they're eight people, and actually it really helps your network. So without further ado, put your hands together for these amazing panelists. (audience applauding) Come on, I'm so done. Thank you very much. Thanks for tuning in to another great episode. You really enjoy it. Thank you very much. You make it worthwhile. Us recording them, we hear these amazing treasure professionals right the way across the world from the US, across the UK, across Europe. And there's lots more exciting guests to come and lots more live events. We love delivering this content. We get asked now, is this what you do? Do you just do content? Do you just do, no. The reason we do the content is to get to know you guys to give you back the tips for success, if you like. But we're here to help you hire someone. If you need to recruit, call us. Because at our heart, we are a Treasury recruitment company. That's how we pay the bills. That's how we pay for the podcast. And that's what we're passionate about. We hear from you at events that these can, we also help you find your next great role. Can we help you hire? The answer is yes, that's exactly what we do. Yes, we do our Treasury salary survey at treasury salary.com. That helps us know exactly how to benchmark not only your salary, but also when you're looking to hire, we know exactly what the market is paying wherever you might be, whether it's the US, UK or Europe. We want to make sure that we are the best informed, that we're not just fingering the air, we always know. If you want to hire the best in Treasury, don't hesitate to contact us. Go onto the website treasuryrecruitment.com or the US you can contact Joe Grobowski, Europe contact, the lovely Katie for more senior roles and roles across the UK. Reach out and contact me. We'll drop in the other some email, joettreasurerecruitment.com, Katie at treasuryrecruitment.com, or Mike at treasuryrecruitment.com. Let us help you make the hiring process as amazingly seamless and easy as our podcasts are to listen to. Thanks for your amazing support. I look forward to seeing you at either an event or a conference very soon, or just give me a call. Let's help you find the next role or recruit the next treasury professional. All right, until next week, maybe thanks. (upbeat music)