Trauma

[Music] Welcome to Hope Ahead where we share stories of helping hope from people facing addiction and mental health challenges right here in our community. Hope Ahead is brought to you by the Virtue Center and I'm your host Caleb Glusemeyer. [Music] So welcome to Hope Ahead. My name is Caleb Glusemeyer and with this we have Maddie. Do you want to introduce yourself Maddie? Sure, so my name is Maddie Heyback. I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma. I am enrolled Cherokee and adopted O Sage. I am currently working with American Indian Science and Engineering Society as a career support program officer. So tell me a little bit about what you do because I don't think you've even told me about like your new position. Oh, I love it. So basically I'm helping empower Indigenous folks in STEM fields in the workforce. So at ASUS we have a ton of different kind of educational and career development programs all the way from like little children up through elders. One of my programs will be a scholarship program available for elders age 50 plus who are Indigenous living in Colorado to get them re-engaged to the college. Re-engaged into the workforce in STEM fields. Got a lot of cool programs going on. Okay, so like give me an example of like I guess what like a case that you might help. Oh, so currently it's not exactly a mental health position. My last jobs were. But these I'm doing like program management. I have three different grants that I kind of cover. So one of them is the one for elders in Colorado. So an example of what I would do is I would get together like the application. I would like create the application and do the entire recruitment process and do all the programming as well. Like set that up and get the speakers and figure out what topics we want to cover for the scholars and. Right. Okay. And you used to work at a chance for change, right? Yeah, I worked at a chance to change in Oklahoma City. And I was basically in fundraising there. I was a community engagement coordinator. Okay. Yeah. So let's talk I guess a little bit about why you're here. So your story is mostly about like mental health and abuse. Yes. And there are some elements of like substance use disorder in there. Kind of depends on how far back you want to go. But it's definitely you can kind of see like the domino effect of like generational trauma and things like that that come through the story. And the reason that it's important for me to talk about it is to kind of break that cycle and break the stigma. And if there's anybody dealing with something similar to what I have, just I think knowing that they're not alone, that would have been useful at different points in my life. So I'd been a domestic violence court advocate. And that was a really good way to kind of turn my experience into a positive and use that to help other people. So I think knowing that you're not alone, but also knowing that you're not doomed. Oh, yeah. It's like huge because I feel like whether we're talking about like substance use disorder addiction or alcoholism or you know, whether it's domestic violence victim or just any sort of trauma. When we're in it, it's so easy to feel like my life is over. I'm like tainted or I'm screwed. And not really seeing, I guess the other side or there there is a way out. There's light at the end of the tunnel or I can get through this even. Absolutely. So whenever you have someone who's been there, experience that or done that and and you know, someone else's eyes, they're a functioning normal person or if they've turned this into a positive, they've taken a negative situation and turned it into something to grow from. It can be, I guess, inspiring. Absolutely. So I was talking to my brother this morning and he said, I remember some of the conversations that you had with me back when you were kind of in a really bad place. Whenever I was in an abusive relationship for gosh, almost four years on and off throughout college. And he said, I remember you saying there's no light at the end of the tunnel and you really feeling that hopelessness sometimes. I was talking about what talk about today. I was like, well, there's so much, you know, you know, where do you even start? I was like, what do people need to hear? And he was like resilience, you know, he was like, where you've been to where you are now. He was like, I've seen it, you know. And I think that is really important and it's something we don't talk about. And I used to say when I was a domestic violence court advocate that, you know, when they say, when life hands you a limb and you've got to make lemonade. Well, you have to add the sugar. You have to squeeze the lemons. You got to put in the work. And you got to make it happen. So lemonade doesn't just like magically make itself, right? So you got to, you got to do the things you need to do to heal and to take care of yourself and to, if you are feel like you're in a space to help others do the same. So you were saying that a lot of, you know, your experience with that trauma happened here in Norman. Sure did. So what brought you initially to Norman as you know, mine, I guess, given backstory. Oh, yeah, no, not at all. So a little bit of my backstory. I, like I said, I'm from Tulsa. So I graduated high school in 2010 and I came to OU for college. So I did my undergraduate degree here and my masters. So prior to coming to OU, I had some, some trauma in my life before that. So my dad has my biological father. He has substance use disorder. He's diagnosed with PTSD, depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and substance use disorder in a traumatic brain injury. Okay. So as you can imagine, it's been a long road with him. Right. Right. So I have watched him go in my lifetime from being literally a stalk broker in my childhood and working in like a beautiful building in downtown Oklahoma City to literally visiting him in the Tulsa Day Center for the homeless when I was in college. You know, so watching somebody so smart and so talented, really just kind of lose everything due to substance use disorder, which was, you know, a way to self-medicate. Right. Trauma, generational trauma, and just a lot of things have never been addressed. And seeing that happen to somebody that you're close to, it kind of shows you it can happen to anybody. And to be honest, it's kind of going to be like a little bit of a complex, you know. Like, you know, I have my master's and I have a good job and I'm, you know, I'm in a good place. But if I ever have, you know, in previous jobs, if I get like a call from my boss, I'm like, this is it. I'm going to be homeless like my dad, you know. And it's like, you don't think about what that does to you. Just, you know, having to essentially be the parent, because he was struggling with his substance use disorder for essentially my whole life. And then it just got kind of unavoidably disruptive in the family. So I think that's huge though. Like, I mean, and you hit the nail in the head and what we talk about, like on Hope Ahead or even at the Verti Center a lot is like this disease, whether it's mental health disorders or substance use disorder. Right. It has no boundaries. Exactly. You know, I mean, you just explained it. He was a stock broker working in this nice agency, like, you know, downtown. Okay, see Bank of America, like, you know, then he goes to this homeless person and like, it has no boundaries. Right. Right. And I mean, my parents had been divorced since I was gosh, too. So, but he'd had some of these issues prior, you know, even when I was a baby, but they just that, you know, wasn't really the reason for the dissolution of the marriage. Because he had kept it pretty hidden at the time, but it's just over the years it's kind of trickled out like how that's happened. And I, you know, I don't think he's a wonderful person, but that's not because of his substance use disorder. It's not because of his mental health. Right. But nobody deserves to deal with those things and nobody deserves to have to, you know, live in conditions like that. And he did have all the support and the resources in the world and my heart just aches for people who haven't had that. And I can't imagine, you know, that struggle. And I mean, for me again, like, you know, my mom's been incredible. And, you know, I have a stepdad who's been my stepdad my whole life, also incredible. And I still struggle, you know, with having watched my dad go through a lot of that and deal with, you know, like I remember him driving when I was a teenager. We were going to pick up a dog and a shelter that I saw online. And it was like an hour or so drive outside of town. And he fell asleep at the wheel because he was piled out. And I literally had to slap him while he was driving to wake him up when I was a teenager. And I mean, those are things that you carry with you. - Yeah. - Yeah. And I mean, so to this day, I really don't drink hardly at all. Like, oh, maybe have one drink a month that like, you know, like a margarita dinner with friends or whatever. - Really? - But it's just that something that's always been on my mind. Like, I've been the mom friend forever because I've seen somebody, you know, appear to be successful and have their life together. And that kind of crumbles. So I just kind of wait for the other shoe to drop for me. I'm constantly doing like a check-in with my friends and family, you know? If he didn't like have his break until he was, you know, 50 or whatever, you know, wins my, you know? And I just have to do those things where I like have supportive friends and family. And I have people who I feel safe and comfortable to check in with. And who know what I've been through. - So do you think watching him go through all that has really, and I think you kind of were hinting at this, but it has kind of really made you be careful about dabbling in certain things, whether, you know, sub-sensitial. - Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So my sister, I have an older sister. And she around the same time that my biological father was getting pretty severe in his substance use. My sister was also really heavily, I guess, dependent on, like, Xanax and other pretty hardcore medications. So she had been over prescribed by a doctor, he ended up actually getting arrested years later, but she-- - The doctor ended up getting arrested. - Not for her case, but there I think like six or so other people that he had over prescribed. And yeah, he ended up getting arrested. But little did we know, she actually had Hashimoto's, which is, you know, like an autoimmune disease that can manifest anxiety. So they were treating as symptom and not the disorder. So-- - Shoshia. - She actually had one time, it's really awful. She was in a terrible car accident. She had flipped her car and two of the kids were in it. - Holy crap. - Yeah, so she was arrested on a felony. And it's like these are things that never would have happened. You know, we would have had one like responsible doctors. - Right. - To like any sort of like community buffer, like, you know. - Yeah. - There were a lot of opportunities and she had that supportive family. And I was, you know, 15, 16 seeing my sister on the news. While my dad's like in jail and missing for a month, you know. And it's like these are two separate sides of my family. - Yeah. - And I never learned how to identify what anxiety was because God bless her, my mom. (laughs) She's a saint, but she, you know, with my sister taking medication like Xanax for anxiety, when I would say things like, I'm really anxious. She'd say, no, you're not, you're just dressed because the word anxiety was scary for her. - Right. - Right. - Right. She's like, I cannot handle my other child, you know. We cannot go down this path like your sister. And she wouldn't say that, but I just, I got it. But you know, fast forward 15 years, I'm almost 30 and I'm just now learning that there's a difference between stress and anxiety. And like that it's what I'd been calling stress all these years is actually anxiety. And now I have like severe gastrointestinal issues that started when I was a child and the doctors are thinking it's because of all of like the adrenaline and cortisol that's been basically ravaging my system for my entire life. Unchecked, you know. And if you don't know what to call it or how do I identify it or that like what you're feeling isn't normal, I just thought life was really hard. (laughs) You know, I actually got anxiety medication. So I've had like anti-depressants for my PTSD for the last couple of years. But I got anti-anxiety medication for the first time about like a week or two ago. And that was a little bit because I was scared of it having seen what I did to my sister. So you know, I go in and say, I'm really anxious. I need something like non-narcotic. Like what if I options here? 'Cause you don't hear about that, right? You kind of hear like the all or nothing. You know, you're either meditating or you're taking Xanax, right? (laughs) - Yeah, it's interesting hearing this from you because I just, I have severe history with substance use disorder, you know, being a hairwinatic for eight years and all this stuff. And I too am terrified of, you know, narcotics and taking medicine. I was diagnosed with ADHD at a young age and-- - I was diagnosed this year. - Okay. - Hey, what's up friend? (laughs) So like all this stuff, you know, and I quit, you know, and that was part of my first go with substances was I started drinking and smoking and then I realized I start googling all the things that I can take and checking pill cabinets and I realized I can snort these pills that they actually give me. And then I get off on, you know, hard drugs and all this stuff and I struggle with anxiety and I get a young age and when I'm learning now is the doctor that I see now actually thinks that I was misdiagnosed and it's actually trauma. - That happens a lot. PTSD and ADHD are like, there will one extremely comorbid and two, there's so much overlap that can be really hard to diagnose. - Exactly. - I was in the same boat because I was diagnosed with PTSD first and they had a hard time diagnosing the ADHD because it was essentially a chicken or the egg situation. - Yeah, and so I've just recently been kind of getting the handle on that. - Yeah. - And then I want to say like two years ago, I was having a really hard time at work with anxiety and just I had a lot of personal stuff going on. - It'd be like that. - With like divorce and stuff like that. - Yeah, yeah. - And I was having basically like panic attacks at work and I was talking with my sponsor and my program recovery and he was like, man, it's okay to like get outside of health. - Yeah, absolutely. But I had this stance of like, I can't get on this because it's gonna make me dependent on this, even if it's non-narcotic and I don't want to live my life like that more and I was just shut off. But in reality, like once I got on the right meds, like it made a world of difference, you know, and I needed it. I really did need it. And so it's interesting, there's even stigma, like to medications and even in recovery, there's like stigma with stuff and it's trying to, I feel like as someone who's in recovery, you're like trying to wade through this like stuff and figure it out, you know, and it's okay to ask for help, you know. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me, it's taken like a team, you know, in years of different doctors and whatever. And my therapist, you know, I'd been talking to her and we had kind of come to figure out that my anxiety, it tends to be really like physiological, like I'll feel it in my body first and that's why, you know, it kind of manifests in my stomach and all that super fun stuff. But we had talked about a beta blocker, which essentially is for your like blood pressure. - Right. - So that prevents like my adrenaline from spiking and my heart rate from spiking because with my PTSD, I start to feel like the anxiety and the physiological response first, so I'll get it in like my stomach and my chest and then I'll start looking for triggers. - Gotcha. - So if we could prevent that physiological part from happening first, then I wouldn't look for triggers and that could prevent a lot of that kind of rumination and potentially intrusive thoughts. - Right. - So, you know, I'm trying the beta blocker now and that seems to be helping a little bit. Mom said I seem more relaxed and chill. I'm super chill. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's been helpful and it's something that I had to bring up to my doctor. I mean, sometimes we have to do our own research and open up a conversation with your doctor and if you don't feel comfortable with the doctor that you're with or you don't feel like you can talk to them about it, yeah, like I would try to change doctors as possible. - Right. - You know, 'cause you need somebody that you feel comfortable with and it's just been, it's been hard, you know, after years trying to find a good fit of somebody who understands. - Right. - And it takes a team too. I don't think you're necessarily going to find like one doctor to meet all of your needs, especially if you're dealing with, you know, mental health or substance use. - Right. - You know. - It's interesting. I'm so bad at like, and my girlfriend hates this, but I'm so bad with like, I think it's just my personality too. I'm like, oh, it's whatever, you know. And like, I'm like that with my health too and I won't do anything about it. And I feel like a lot of people are like this that we won't do anything about it until it's really bad. - Can I give you a pro tip? - Huh. - Okay, so what I do to make sure that I don't like let little things pile up is if I start noticing things or like I have triggers or I start noticing like my anxiety is ramping up, I have like a note. like, you know, you know, it's up in your phone. I have like a note pad for one for like my doctor and one for my therapy appointments. So like if I'm having like physiological stuff going on, I'll write that down for like, you know, for the doctor and just try to like, so if I just notice something instead of like noticing it and be like, and never mind, which I have a tendency to do. I'll just jot it down real quick. And then like if I look at everything together, I'll be like, okay, this is probably something I should talk to the doctor about. - Right, makes sense. - Yeah, so that way you don't have to feel like I have to address it all at once. But you can go back to it later and you won't forget about it. - Right. - So yeah, that's kind of how I have to organize my, it's embarrassing how many notes I have on my phone, but it's fine. And that's on the undiagnosed ADHD until last year. (laughing) - Right, right, right. - So. - That's funny. - Yeah, and then come to find out there's a ton of overlap between, you know, ADHD and anxiety. - Right. - So. And perfectionism and oh my, there's just so much. There's so much. - Yeah. - And the gut brain connection is very real. - Right. - So, it's so interesting. - So, let's dive into, I think what you were saying is, you came to Norman for a ticket. - Oh yeah, I digress. So I kind of had to give you like big background. - Right. - So that's like a lot of the trauma and like the family background. So I came to you, it was good. My junior year, I got into relationship. It was like my first like real relationship. I like hesitate to call it that because like, I don't know, for several reasons. But I don't know, it was like kind of a bad time for me in general, like kind of a vulnerable time and narcissists are really good at seeing that sometimes. Whenever they have some unresolved trauma of their own. So I was, I ended up dating somebody and I remember after I left, 'cause he ended up being abusive after I left, I was like, dang, I never even liked him that much. (laughing) That's lame. - Right. - All that for a guy, I never even liked that much. - Right. - No, but I jumped. But so, we started dating and ended up being abusive and it was on and off for four years. So after I got out, I ended up being diagnosed with PTSD. I self diagnosed first. I knew I had PTSD because like, I'd been through some things. - Right. - Right. And we kind of come to figure out that I probably actually had PTSD from my childhood stuff, you know, with my sister and my dad. - Right. - And that now it's most likely kind of, and this is, it's in kind of like a gray area of diagnostics at the moment, but like complex PTSD or CPTSD, I more likely have that than just, your standard like general meals. - Neural meals, yeah. (laughing) - So that's really interesting. So I likely already had PTSD going into this abusive relationship. So you actually like sometimes you're revictimized and you're not even aware of it. - Right. - Super interesting. So I don't know, it's hard to get into it. I mean, I'm happy to talk about anything. There's just so much, you know, it's four years of trauma. - Right. - And the majority of it was vastly like emotional, unverbal. There was an occasion where I was like, like pretty badly assaulted. I was hit multiple times that day, like maybe seven or so times. And I'm pretty sure I had a concussion. I don't know 'cause I didn't go to the doctor, but like, you know, I feel like you know when your brain changes a little bit. - Right, right. - So yeah, everybody, so gosh, there's so much it's so hard to explain. I mean, I felt like I was essentially having to live like a double life and that wasn't by my own desire. That was for my safety. - Right. - You know, because once you reach a certain point in your abusive relationship, he knows where I live. He knows my class schedule. He knows my school schedule. If I leave, he's threatening to kill himself. I refused to come over once when he was yelling at me on the phone and it was like the first time I stood up for myself and he actually cut his wrists and called me and told me it was my fault. Yeah, I called, and he told me if I called 911, he would jump out of the window. So I did call 911 because like, if you already cut your wrist, like jump out of your attic room, like what is that gonna do? - Right, right. - You know, so I'm driving to his parents' house where he was and it's like seven in the morning because he drank like a whole bottle of Jack the night before or something like that. I don't know. They had to take his phone away because the sister heard him being so horrible to me on the phone. They took his phone away and apologized to me. And his parents had actually worn me about him privately, pulled me aside and was literally, they were like, you're too good for him. But that's not a way that I see people in general. I don't see people as being too good for whatever or so like that. I just was like, okay. But if they would have said like, hey, he's a little violent. - Right. - That's a different conversation. - Right, yeah, yeah. - But yeah, I mean, it was for him, I was a cycle of abuse. His dad had been abusive towards his mom. And I remember when I was trying to make that split, I had tried everything. I, you know, that's the big reason why I moved back to Tulsa. I actually had like a six month escape plan. I don't think I said that like out loud in public. I had a six month escape plan. Because I knew that if I stayed in Norman, I was interested in going to law school here. I knew that if I stayed in Norman, that he, I wouldn't be able to get away from him. - Right. - So I just moved back to Tulsa. My grandpa passed away like the month that I graduated with my master's and was able to leave. So like, he couldn't really argue with me on that because I'm like, I gotta go back home for my grandpa. - Right. - To be there for my grandma and my family. And so the one thing he had told me the whole time is he would never do a long distance relationship and I was like, doop. (laughs) I personally don't have a problem with that. But I can act like I do. So I told him I was leaving officially moving in this and that he had told me he was like, I wanna try a long distance. And I just started sobbing because I was like, that's my sixth month plan. Like, it's in the trash. It's all over. - Right. - And at this point, I was just kind of like, I didn't even have like a little of anymore. I was just like, if I die, I die. - Right. - So I started getting meldy a little bit 'cause after four years, when you think you have an escape and you find out you don't, you just don't care anymore. Especially if you've been the last four years you've been told like, you're not much to care about anyway. So I mean, like I'd literally been told repeatedly, like the world is better off without you, you're worthless, you're every name you can imagine that I won't repeat. Like words I probably never even heard before up until that point. - Right. - You know. Like my god. But it's, it's, - So did your family know what was going on? - Oh, it's complicated. So I had told one of my best friends at the time, when it, okay, kind of. One of my friends told my mom a couple of years into it. And mom, well, and a lot of people don't know how to deal with domestic violence or things like that. And I had been keeping the relationship pretty quiet for a while because my family did not like him. - Okay. - Because they didn't like how he, in the words of my mom looked at me or talked to me. She said he acted like I was annoying. Like, and she said if he acted like you were a bother to him in like my mother's house, she couldn't imagine how he acted elsewhere. - Right. - And I was like, "Spot on, Kathy." - Right. - Right. - Right. But people who haven't been educated on domestic violence or things like that, they don't know that you can't just sleep. Because like I said, like he knows my class schedule, he knows my work schedule, he knows where I live. There was one night where he would be at my apartment and he would leave my window unlocked and not tell me, like I would go to the bathroom, he'd unlock my bedroom window and he'd get like super drunk and walk to my house in the middle of the night or my apartment. And he would crawl in through my bedroom window while I was sleeping and scare the absolute life out of me. And I'm like, yeah, so it's like, how would I leave? Somebody's crawling in my bedroom window. He's showing up behind trees when I like walk my dog at my apartment. Like, you know, he's on campus. Like, he knows where my sorority is. - Right. - He knows where everything, where, because I was, you know, teaching assistant in my master's and I was like, I think about my students. - Right. - You know? - Right. - So, yeah, it just, people only have so much they can do, you know? And it's like what looks like options for people on the outside often does not feel like options. - Well, it's totally different when you're in it. - Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, like, especially once you already have somebody like cut their wrists and tell you it's your fault just because you wouldn't come over because you were setting boundaries. - Right. - Right. - Yeah. - So, to be completely honest, I have always thought he was trying to kill me that day because when I got to the house, when he had told me that he had cut his wrists, it was like 6.37 in the morning. He had left his front door wide open and his room is up in the attic and his whole family was home and they were all asleep and he hadn't woken them up. So, if he was like having a crisis, like, yeah, like all there, bedroom doors were closed and stuff and he was up in his room with a knife and come to find out that he like he had self-harmed but he was not like self-harming with the intent to end his life. Right. So he was manipulating me to get me upstairs. Right. And he left that door open for me to come up there. Right. And he was super drunk and had a knife. And I guess the hospital said like he could have died from alcohol poisoning if I hadn't called. But he wouldn't have died from the cuts. They were like. Right. So it's really scary. I mean, I found that out like weeks later. You know? Yeah. And it's like when somebody's already done something like that and you're trying to leave, you're like, well, you just have to yourself, but you're going to do to me. Right. You've already hit me. Right. You know? And I'd seen him like, he had grabbed, okay, so there was like, he had like, he used to wrestle. I have a really bad knee and he would like straddle me and like, like, lock my bad knee and like a wrestling thing and like just be like interrogating me about like made up that, you know, just like, like not real anything. And there's no right answer. And he had me like that and he had, he was hitting me in the face. And my dog's like 80 pounds. She jumped up. And she was confused. You know, she'd been around him like her whole life. Right. So she jumped up and she didn't want to like hurt him. So she crawled between us and crawled and laid on my chest just to try to like get in the way. And he grabbed her by her back legs and pulled her off the bed. And that was like the, like really the first time I stood up for myself. Well, I wasn't standing up for myself. I was standing up for Marley. Right. But I was like, touch my ethin dog again. Yeah. And we will have a very big problem. Right. He never touched my dog. You can. He was like, that's the one thing that you know not to do. Right. And I mean, like, you know that about me. Like my dogs are my children. Right. So, yeah, I would, I would be scared of me too. Right. Like. Yeah. So. Right. So. I'm assuming you did, you were talking about his was kind of like generational trauma and a lot of stuff. Oh, what? Yeah. So there was a part of that that I was going to tell you. So, you know, when I told him that I wasn't, that I, you know, was going to leave any ask me, did you long distance and whatever. I finally said to him, I was just like, I, you have to try to figure out ways to like get out of situations carefully, right? Like, choose your words very carefully when you're in a situation like that. Right. Because we were by ourselves. We were like in the car parked like a block from his, his parents' house. And I, I told him, I said, look. I'm never, it was a year after he had hit me, you know, and I said, I'm never going to be able to forgive you for putting your hands on me. And you deserve a blank slate with somebody who won't look at you like you're terrible. Right. I was like, it's not, you know, I was like, I've tried to forgive you. I can't. I didn't, I was done, you know, but yeah, it's just you like, people see people in like trauma and like people do things that look weird on the outside like that conversation. Like if you repeated that conversation to somebody, it would be totally different than like the survival mode that I was in. Right. You know what I mean? And it's like, that's just something that you have to do. And then like, I end up having a complex like, am I just a liar? Because like, that's what you end up getting called. And it's like, that's, it's different to be in survival mode and have to do things to be safe. You're trying to be tactful at that point. Right. And tactical. Yeah. And strategic. And obviously it was like not in a safe situation, but it's like when you've been gassed so long and like told you, like these horrible things about yourself, like you start to believe them, especially whenever you're kind of like forced into situations where they have to be true. Right. Yeah. But I think one of like the biggest lessons for me has been learning to give myself some grace. You know, there's, there's like a quote, I see going around, it's like, forgive yourself for the things you had to do when you were just trying to survive. Right. And it's like, yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't, I think. If anybody else told me that story, I would be like, well, yeah. Obviously. I would. You know. I would. But when I, you know, when I say it, I find myself feeling like I need to defend myself to myself. Right. You know. Yeah. And my therapist said to me one time, I like said something really mean about myself. I probably called myself stupid or something. Yeah. And she was like, do you talk to yourself like that or do you have to do friends like that or just yourself? And I was like, listen, doctor. Just me, girl. Yeah. And she was like, I just, I have a question then. And I was like, okay. And she's like, why did you put in so much time and effort and blood and sweat and tears to get out of an abusive relationship to carry that voice with you and be that for yourself? Yeah. I mean, really that's all there is to it, you know. And that's like one of the things that I carry with me now, if I'm being hard on myself, is like, no, I did my best. I can forgive myself. Yeah. And like, it's like at the end of the day, it's like you didn't even do anything bad. You've just been gasoline into thinking everything you do is bad. Right. Yeah. So, but when, you know, I told him, you know, you, like you deserve somebody to clean slate or whatever, he, this is what the part I was getting to, he said, well, my dad used to hit my mom and he hasn't put his hands on her in years and they're happier than they've ever been. And that's when my brain just broke and I didn't care anymore. And I just, I got really quiet and I looked at him and I said, I'm not your ethink mom and I'm never going to forgive you. Yeah. And then he called me a couple of names gone out of the car and I never had to see him again. Right. It's great. So, during that time, did you realize, I mean, I, with the chaos that was going on, I almost feel like it would be hard until like comprehend what was going on. To identify it as a, as abuse. Oh, no, absolutely not. I didn't realize it was abuse to put a hands on me, which was like two and a half years in, three years in, right? Because I feel like that's the standard, like, you know, oh, yeah, but I will tell you for a fact, the emotional abuse, like messed me up way more than anything else because that's like the stuff that I still deal with, you know? And I also realized some of the things that he, like, some of his, like, triggers for his violence and his, like, just general abuse were things that I had really no control over. Like one of them, like, being ADHD. So like, he would give me directions, like, we'd be driving and like, I would miss a turn or something or like, forgot, you know, forget something he said. And then it was because I was stupid in every bad name in the book and I wasn't listening and I was a bad girlfriend and, like, I'm just a bad person. And there's like a lot of cultural abuse too because, like I said, I'm indigenous. He's also native. And I am really involved, like, with my communities. And I was president of the Native story at OU at the time. And he used to just say things like, and like, I was, like, actively taking Cherokee and, like, learn my language and I, like, participate in ceremony for my O-stage, with my O-stage tribe. And I, he would say things like, you're just white. Like, I don't even know why you try. But like, the only word he knew in his language was the name of, like, a cat that his parents had when he was a kid, you know? Right, right. And it's like, when you have somebody trying to break down, like, the thing that's giving you strength because, like, my culture and, like, my sororities and my family are, like, a big part of the reason I was able to get out, right? Like, it's really cheesy, but there's a saying and it's like, I'm my ancestors, wildest dreams. And I thought about everything, like, my ancestors had to go to, like, for me to be here. Right. And I was like, listen, my relatives did not survive genocide for me to let a man bring me down. Right. Like, no, get out of here with that. Right. You know? I was like, just colonize that one. Right. So, plus, I was like, that's not even traditional anyway. Like, you don't treat people like that. Right, yeah. That's not humble. You don't mock people for not knowing their way. It's like, you teach them. Right. And it's like, and if you don't know your way, it's how are you going to judge somebody who's actively learning theirs and who grew up with theirs? Right. Just because, like, the blood quantum or might be less or, like, the skin tone is wider. Right. It's like, at the end of the day, like, your cultural ties and your knowledge, you're a big part of your identity and who you are and somebody trying to, like, tear that down is a form of abuse, you know? Right. Yeah. It's part of it. So, did you realize, I guess, what was happening, like, towards the end or afterwards in the sense of, like, this is his generational trauma? Um, I realized it probably dream. Um, I mean, like, once I kind of, once he'd put his hands on me and, like, I knew about his family history already, I was just kind of like, oh, there it is. Right. Um, and that wasn't something he was willing to get help with. And he was, like, pretty, he was kind of like the antithesis of a lot of my views, you know, it was kind of, it was a weird pairing anyway, but I was, you know, in 20-year-old who'd like, never had a serious relationship and was like, this person likes me. Like, you know, their friends with my friends. Let's give this a shot. Right. Um, like, you get stuck. - Yeah, my dude. (laughing) And yeah, I mean like some of my friends didn't even know that like we were together on and off that long because he never came anywhere with me and never didn't even, he was just me and at home. And I, my resume is fire these days because I did so much stuff on campus and at work just to not go home. - Right. - You know? - Right. - I mean, it's so interesting. And he didn't have a working car for a lot of it and like I would get like yelled at for like meetings going late or whatever. - Yeah. - You know, things like that 'cause he would like, he would walk back to my apartment and tell me it was like my fault because my meeting really, that he had to walk in the rain and so I'm waiting for me. - Yeah. - And like, yeah, I just, everything. I mean, you name it, he has said it. (laughing) - Right. - Yeah, it's, and trauma is really difficult to deal with. But I mean, that's why I think it's so important to talk about. I mean, for example, my mom has a hair salon and yesterday I was over there and I was talking to her about the podcast and I was like, there's so much to my story. I mean, like how do you explain, you know? Just years of like, a variety of trauma, like, you know? - Right. - I feel like, you know, just name a type of trauma and I can tell you a little bit of-- - Right. - But I was thinking about, you know, like what people need to hear and whatever customers and her salon while I was talking to her and I, you know, they'd asked me what the podcast was going to be about and, you know, I just said, oh, you know, really just like my lived experience with PTSD and recovery and she was like, oh, I have PTSD. And after, you know, she really like dove into her story and opened up and told me every, and like, I didn't have to tell her. And you know, just hearing that another woman had PTSD. There's just like a really a sense of like, "Can ship there?" - Yeah. - Because we don't talk about it. And that's exactly why I do. Because all I had to do was like say in passing that I was going to talk about my experience on a podcast and she went into depth for like half an hour. - Right. - You know, when she left, my mom was like, she's been in three or four times and that's the most she's opened up. Like, she literally lit up when you said that. - Yeah. - And she was like, I've never heard her. She's, mom was like, she's opened up about like, cancer and like, serious health things. But she's never told me about being stuck or like sexual assault. And I was like, well, because cancer's not stigmatized in the same way. I was like, nobody's going to look at you and ask you what you were wearing when you told me you had breast cancer. You know? - Right. - Like, that's not how that works. And she was like, I never thought of it that way. I was like, yeah, because you're not like a bad person. No, I'm just kidding. I was like, because you have a daughter who's been through this. You know? - And I think that's the goal of us doing this in the, you know, the Virtue Center in general is, we're doing a lot of work to really try to get out in the community and get some of this to get talked about, because-- - Absolutely. - Addiction and mental health touches literally everyone. And in some way, shape or form, you might not just want to admit it or realize it. But someone who's struggling with alcoholism or addiction or who has died from it or who is struggling from some mental health disorder or whether it be PTSD or anxiety or depression or whatever, literally everyone. - Oh yeah. - And, you know, between the state and how we view this stuff as a state and funding, you know, whether it's the judicial system, you know, and the way we view stuff in court with this stuff, a lot needs to change, you know? And it needs to be talked about. And I think that's one of the many things that needs to happen is we need to not be scared to talk about this stuff. We need to not be scared to ask for help, because I mean, we were just talking a second ago, it's sometimes-- with the medication, it's so hard to ask for help because of the way we view things, whether we realize that's how we're viewing them or not. It's kind of like society has kind of driven us in a direction, whether we realize it or not. And it's like, hey, like, we're doing a lot of stuff wrong. - Yeah, no jokes. So my next question is, all this stuff is going on. How are you-- how is this affecting the other areas of your life, like school or like work and all this other stuff? - Yeah, like I said, I just like piled it on. So two years ago, this literally the entirety of my grad program I was going through this. Like, you know, so I was teaching assistant, I was president of the Native Sorority, I was a graduate student. Let's see, what else? There was so much-- I was interning at the state capital. I had two different internships. Yeah, there's just so much going on. I think I just threw myself into that. And I was not good. Two of my close friends at the time actually stopped talking to me because they thought I was choosing him over them. And I was like, I would literally never. He's going to kill me. - Right. - But how do you tell somebody that? Because it's like you're going to put them at risk. Or you know, you also just don't value yourself that much. They were points where I was actively suicidal. And yeah, I have protective factors. I mean, one of them is not the healthiest, but if it gets the job done, hey, one of my protective factors is just pure spite. Like I was like, you want me to die? I will never die. - You're right. - You're right. - I will not give you the satisfaction. - Right. - So it's like pure spite and pettiness. It's like, it's a great coping mechanism if you haven't tried it. And my dog, you know, I was like nobody, my dog would never know what happened. - Right. - So I couldn't do that to her. And then my mom, my mom is my best friend. And even though we're going through like a rocky time, it's like the only time that we've ever had this been rocky is when I was in that relationship. - Yeah. - And it's not because of either of us. It's an unprecedented situation. And a big part of abuse is people isolating you from people that love you. You know, so when you have somebody actively like trying to cause problems, then, you know, but really I just powered through and took it day by day. And I was not good. I found like a therapist on campus briefly. But honestly, I think I just stayed busy. I think I just stayed as busy as I could. And like I would not recommend. - Right. - But like that's what I did. And I mean like it worked for me. But that's kind of what I'd always done. I just like put my head down and be like the golden child, you know, whether it's my dad, you know, in jail or my sister, you know, really struggling. I always felt like I had to be like perfect. So it was not too-- - The family hero. - Stress out anybody else, right? Yeah, it's like I just felt like I was like, if I'm being completely honest, I looked at my mom and I was like, she doesn't deserve this shit. - Right. - Sorry. But like she, I just like couldn't put any more stress on her than she already had. Because like there was nothing about her that deserved any of this. - Right. - So yeah, I mean, I just kind of like took it to the chin, you know? I think that's part of why I tried to like hide what I was going through from her because I didn't think there was anything she could do. And I didn't just want to worry her. I was like, it's fine. I'll handle it somehow. I'll figure it out one day, you know? - I would even challenge you to think of like even that thought process is like, oh, my mom doesn't deserve this. That's you thinking you're not good enough that my mom would see this as a burden more than anything. When in reality, that's probably not what she would see that as is all. - Oh, no, for sure. I mean, like these days were incredible, but I mean, then I just, you know, seeing everything going on at the same time. I just was like, you have so much on your plate. I refused to add to that. - Right. - Because I too have the same things on my plates, you know? - Right. - You know? I mean, she did one of like the greatest things anybody has ever done for me. When I was diagnosed with PTSD and like, when I moved back to Tulsa, she actually asked me if she could go talk to my therapist and learn more about like PTSD and how to like communicate with me and how to like help, you know? How to talk about abuse in a way that like is helpful without being stigmatizing. - Right. - And that's like really the greatest thing anybody's ever like I will never forget that. - Right. - And I'm literally getting emotional. Oh my god, what did you make me cry Caleb? God dang, oh, annoying. So, no, she just, that's, it's really, that's incredible. That was a really wonderful thing for me. - Right. - So I'm very lucky. - So what are some things that you continue to do today to, I guess, continue to walk through that PTSD and deal with some of the anxiety and everything that comes with that. Oh, I attack it from every angle. Stay on top of that thing. So the first thing is I just make peace with it. I don't think about PTSD as a disorder or an enemy. I think of it as the lizard part of my brain trying to protect me. I'm just like, listen, you're trying. You can be a little overbearing sometimes, but you've got my best at heart. I was like, I get you intuition. I get you nervous system. I let you down. I did. I own that, but I won't do it again. You can calm down a little bit. So I just kind of talk to my trauma. That's cool though. I'm going to realize that's a while. No, I mean, I totally get what you're saying. It's my friend. Yeah. It's annoying little friend. It is a survival thing though. It's trying to protect you. It's like don't you that again. Yeah, just trying to make peace with that. And except this is what happened. This is how it's affected me. It is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I get that. Yeah, I mean, I think of it almost as just like an overprotective parent, you know? Right. And then you're like, yes. Please, please.