Transfer and Non-Traditional Students

[MUSIC] >> Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside the Yale Admissions Office. I'm Hannah, I'm a Yale Admissions Officer. >> And I'm Mark, I'm also a Yale Admissions Officer. And this is the very first episode that we are recording by request. >> Yes. >> We have gotten a lot of emails to our account requesting an episode about transfer admission. So we're going to do it. >> Yeah, we actually read the emails and we're happy to deliver on this request. So I think that we should probably begin with a startling revelation here, which is that this whole podcast has already been about transfer admissions. >> Whoa, major plot twist. >> Seriously. >> Whoa, this is like Bruce Willis in six cents, Kevin Spacey, usual suspects. I wasn't sure which one was the right analogy for this, but [SOUND] >> Yeah. >> Mind blown, you've been listening to a podcast about transfer admissions this whole time. >> That's right, everything that we've covered, reading, committee, essays, recommendations, it all applies to transfer students just as much as it applies to first year applicants. >> Right, so if this is the first episode that you're listening to, we're going to recommend that you go back and listen to some others, because it's going to give you a lot of advice even if you're planning to apply through our transfer or non-traditional students program. >> Yep, the process is virtually the same, the priorities are the same. There are a few relevant differences and we'll try to focus on those for this episode. We also want to talk about a special admissions program we run for non-traditional students. That's the Eli Whitney students program. And in our terms, non-traditional means someone whose educational path has been interrupted for five or more years. You know, there are some students who are eligible to apply through transfer or Eli Whitney's or through first year. You can check our website for all the details about that. >> Yeah, and we'll talk about how we review these applications, what we're looking for in these different processes. And I'm really excited because we're going to be joined by two more colleagues today, making their podcast debuts. Yeah, Marisa is going to talk about the transfer program and then Patricia will talk about the Eli Whitney program. >> So let's start with talking about why we have these programs and how they work. Obviously, when most people think about undergraduate admissions, they tend to think about first year admission for students who are coming right out of high school. And indeed, that's like 95% of the applications that we receive and probably about 95% of the work that we do. >> Yeah, but we also have these two other admissions programs designed to meet the needs of different types of students who can really add a lot to Yale and take a lot away just like incoming first year students. >> Yeah, it's worth noting that at Yale, all of our undergraduates are in the same academic program. They participate in the same activities. At some other universities, they might have a separate extension program or something like continuing studies program for non-traditional students in particular. They might have a separate admissions office, but at Yale, it all comes through our office and it all heads to the same place. That's just Yale College where all of our undergraduates are. >> Yeah, and I think that's a really important thing to understand because it means that we're looking for applicants to these programs who are going to enrich the same community that we have been talking about throughout this podcast. >> Exactly. So remember, this has already been a podcast about transfer and even non-traditional student admissions. >> Yeah, definitely. So we could certainly fill the undergraduate student body with traditional age students coming right out of high school if we wanted, but we think we'd be missing out on something if we did that. >> Definitely. Remember, we mean it when we say that we care a lot about diversity in all of its possible forms. We think that transfer and non-traditional students add a lot to the diversity of the undergraduate student body, particularly in terms of the diversity of lived experience that they bring with them. And students coming straight out of high school aren't the only ones who can really thrive in the Yale College academic environment. >> We think there is more out there and more that these folks can add to the Yale experience. So that's what we're looking for. >> Yeah. And we should be really clear here. These programs are very, very small. Generally, each year there are between 30 and 40 new incoming transfer and Eli Whitney student program students combined. Compared to, you know, 1500 new first-year students. >> Right. >> And you can't do any sort of apples to apples comparison when it comes to selectivity. Right. You know, if you look at the number of applicants and the number of admitted students, that actually is not going to tell you a whole lot. The pools of students who choose to apply through these programs, first year transfer and on traditional, they're so different. Just that admit rate is not going to tell you a whole lot. So we also don't go in with a specific quota in any given year. We look at the number of students who apply and we take the number of students that stand out as really compelling, provided that there's space available in the college for them. >> Yeah. All that said, you know, we should be clear. These programs are both very, very selective. Like the first year program, we have many, many more highly qualified and academically prepared students than we have room to admit. >> Right. In a minute, we're going to talk with our colleagues about what makes an applicant stand out in these pools. But first, let's cover some basic advice for these programs. So first, because these programs are so highly selective, we advise you don't make some huge life decision based on the idea that it's going to help your chances of admission. The numbers here, they're just too low. It doesn't make sense for you to upturn your life. >> For example, we have students ask us, oh, if I pick ex-college in the spring of my senior year of high school, will it make me a better transfer applicant to Yale later on? And we say, whoa, don't make this decision based on that remote possibility and choose the right school for you. >> Right. Similarly, sometimes students will get very wrapped up in the idea that they could withdraw from their current college or unenroll from certain courses in order to retain eligibility for either first year admission or transfer admission. That does not make any sense whatsoever. Do what makes sense for you in the moment and know that Yale will have a program that can meet you where you are if you are interested. >> I think the best advice we have is don't disengage from your current college and don't start your time at college assuming that you're going to transfer. You'll end up missing out on a lot of opportunities and you're making yourself a less compelling candidate if you've already got one foot out the door. >> Right. We'll start by saying the most compelling transfer applicants are those who have really engaged in their current college environment. They're doing well. But they're also making a compelling case for why they might do even better at a place like Yale. Simply saying, things are not working out well here. I'm not engaged. I don't like it. That doesn't make you a compelling applicant in our transfer program. >> And by the way, if you applied as a first year applicant and you were denied, it's probably not the case that applying again as a transfer applicant is going to change the outcome. The pools are just as strong. Your application probably is not going to be significantly different. >> Right. Let's talk about each program more in depth. Let's get some advice from each program's director as well. So let's start with transfer. >> Okay. So the transfer admissions program is for students who are currently or recently enrolled in a full-time undergraduate program. So this generally means someone who went right from high school to college and wants to transfer to Yale after either one or two years. When coming transfer students start at Yale as either Yale sophomores or as Yale juniors. And we should say it's strong transfer students come from all kinds of different colleges, right? We talked about this being one of the pieces of diversity of experience. So we see students coming through the transfer program from schools that are a lot like Yale. They're at schools that are highly residential. They have a liberal arts program. You can kind of see a lot of connections between what that student's doing in their college and what they would have been doing at Yale in their first or second year. >> Yeah, but also some are coming from really different kinds of college environments. They're at big state universities with a lot of different undergraduate schools. Or they're coming from community colleges with commuter students and a mix of full-time and part-time students. >> Yeah, so there's a lot of interesting diversity there. But we should make an important caveat. Strong transfer students do all have relatively similar academic programs. And those academic programs tend to look pretty similar to what a Yale undergraduate student would be doing their first or their first and their second year in their classes. >> Termining which courses will transfer for credit at Yale is an art, not a science. And the credit review process is a part of the admissions committee discussion. Basically, department and course titles don't need to line up exactly. But if you've been taking mostly, say, business and marketing courses, or you've been in an undergraduate nursing program. There's just not a Yale analog to those. >> Right, we're not going to be able to line things like that up. And let's mention, we don't admit a transfer student if they're not going to meet the credit benchmark to begin as a sophomore, as a junior. So that means you won't apply to Yale as a transfer student, be admitted, but then get a letter saying, sorry, you've got to start over as a first year. >> And you also can't voluntarily rescind credit to make yourself eligible if you have too many credits. >> Right, we're going to do a review of the transcript along with everything else. And part of that review involves determining, okay, are you eligible to actually continue at Yale as a sophomore or as a junior based on what you've done? That determination can't happen until we're actually in the committee room with someone from our Yale College Dean's Office. So don't call us up in advance. It's going to be hard for us to make that call for you. Just apply. We'll figure it out on the inside. >> Yeah. Okay, so now that you know the basics, let's introduce our colleague, Marisa, who directs our transfer program. Hi, I'm Marisa. Welcome to the podcast. >> Hey Mark. Hi, Hannah. It's great to be here. Thanks. >> So we have three of the most frequently asked questions for you that we'd like to cover about transfer applications, starting with, and this is a big one, what makes a transfer applicant stand out? academically. We want to emphasize that it's the quality of the students' effort during this entire experience that stands out to us in the application review. You know, high grades, performing well in liberal arts types courses helps the students stand out academically and nails transfer pool. Most importantly, have a focus. Develop your passion, dive into and take advantage of the best academic programs. Seek out well-known professors to help guide you and get involved in meaningful extracurricular activities. And the chance for applications that stand out the most to us are really those students who lean in and where we can strongly see the students' own agency. It might be an answer that surprises you. But this really means the students who are intentional in the way that they've engaged in improving their likelihood of success. All right. And then how can a transfer applicant use their responses to the application questions to help them stand out in the process? And of course, you know, there are universal principles that apply to any college admissions application, right? You know, as you both said at the beginning of this episode, this entire series has covered many of the factors so far, right? From how craft compelling essays to the importance of requesting letters of recommendation that will make a difference to really how to even conduct a persuasive interview. So for students attending colleges and wanting to apply to Yale or any other selective university, an important tool to guide this process is simple. Just remember and be proud that you have chosen to pursue higher education and let that science shine through. So we want students to know how personal the transfer application processes and that you can stand out by being authentic and honest in your essays, and be more similar to, you know, the first year application about your goals, your passions, and your dreams for the future. And ultimately, I would just have to add that this is not a transactional process. Instead, it is a hands-on process and we care about who you are, and ultimately we do want to improve the likelihood of your success. So Marisa, what is your advice to students who attend community college and are applying to transfer? This is one of my favorite questions, you know, because Yale is committed to building a stronger and more inclusive university. So essentially to echo all that, you have expressed throughout these podcasts. My advice is thinking about transferring to Yale is really at the highest level twofold. First, we want students to know that Yale values the diversity of experiences and backgrounds that they would bring to our campus. And while the numbers are still relatively small for those transferring to Yale, we know that there are some outstanding institutions across the country with curriculums, with liberal arts courses where you can dig in and become actively engaged in the sub of practical knowledge and pursue your academic interests. Those are advices to really be aware that Yale is committed to greater efforts for providing a transfer runway for top performing students from all different types of colleges. It doesn't matter to the admissions committee if you're at a peer college, a peer institution, or if perhaps you didn't even initially graduate high school, but you have built equivalency in our back-on-track. Put these doubts aside and have conviction in your application and your responses that you are a deserving and a competitive candidate. Fabulous. Well, Marisa, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you very much. It was great to be with you today. Next up is the Eli Whitney students program. This is for students who've had a significant break from their formal education. This break could be just a few years or it could be for decades. Let's be clear. Some Eli Whitney students start their studies at Yale at, say, age 24 or 25. Others are in their 60s or 70s. We'll avoid name dropping, but we love bragging about our Eli. Some really, really impressive and accomplished people have gone back to school through the program and their lived experiences add a ton to the undergraduate experience. And so, if you're trying to jog your memory about Eli Whitney and you're wondering why the program is named after this person, you maybe learn this name and like, I don't know, seven great history or something. If you're like, I'm trying to like, where do I know that name? Before you have to Google it, inventor of the cotton gin. That is his claim to fame. Why you probably remembered this. He attended Yale way back in the late 1700s and started at age 24. His family hadn't supported him, so he worked to earn tuition money, had a really interesting career as an entrepreneur and inventor. Afterwards, actually just right down the street from Yale close to where I live. And he was kind of one of our most famous early non-traditional students. So that's why the program's named after the one and only Eli Whitney. There you go, a little history lesson. So even though Eli Whitney students enroll in all the same classes, they are the only students who have the option to enroll part time at Yale, and they have up to seven years to complete their degree. Yeah, they also live off campus, but they're included in the Yale residential colleges and they get free lunches in the dining hall during the week. We offer really generous, need-based financial aid for Eli Whitney students too. This helps us attract the best and most interesting students from all kinds of different backgrounds. Yeah, and you know, I don't think we can overstate how valuable it is to have these students in the Yale seminars and then dining halls and extracurricular activities. Their backgrounds are just so different, but at the same time, they are yelies through and through and the community really embraces them. All right, so let's hear from our colleague Patricia. She directs the Eli Whitney students program. Patricia, welcome to the podcast. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm always happy to talk about Yale to Eli Whitney students program. Don't tell first-year applicants this, but I think the college education is wasted on the young. While I say this partly ingest, I do think that the adult students often treasure their college experience more. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we have a few questions for you. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, non-traditional students have a lot of options for higher education? What's special about the Eli Whitney students program? Well, Yale recognizes that non-traditional students may have different needs from traditional age undergraduates. So we developed a program that's tailored specifically to students who have taken a significant break from their education. The Eli Whitney students program offers a traditional in-person Yale liberal arts program for returning students. Most colleges do not offer similar programs. Eli Whitney students come from all walks of life ranging from students whose education were disrupted because they were raising children or taking care of other family members to military veterans, artists, athletes, and community activists. Eli Whitney students receive the same bachelor's degrees just like other Yale undergraduates. They take the same classes, they major in the same departments, and participate in extra correct activities. Eli Whitney students do not live in dorm rooms with Yale college students. They live off campus or they can apply for graduate housing. The Eli Whitney students program also provide students with a built-in cohort of adult peers who have life and professional experiences that are very different from students who enter Yale directly from high school. So this is a small, small, but tight knit and supportive community. Yeah, and as you said, you know, these students, their experience is different and we try to recognize that. One of the way we do that is through the application. So can you talk about how the application for the Eli Whitney students program is designed to be different than the first year or the transfer application and also how our review process is a little bit different as well? I'm glad that you're asking this question because one of our current students actually told me that he applied to the Eli Whitney students program rather than to the transfer program because he felt that the Eli Whitney application did a better job soliciting information that he wanted to share with the students. So unlike the common application or the coalition application, which are geared primarily to high school seniors, our Eli Whitney application is designed specifically for people who have been out of high school for a while. We don't ask questions about parents, nor do we ask the applicants to list their extra curriculum activities or how many hours per week they spent on them. We do ask for a resume and our essay questions are ones that appeal to people in their mid-20s as well as to people in their 50s. We do encourage Eli Whitney applicants to submit letters of recommendation from instructors, but we will also accept recommendations from people whom the applicants know from outside the classrooms, such as employers. I think the Eli Whitney application does a good job capturing information from adult students. We focus much less on a student's high school record or what they've done in high school, but more on their recent academic credentials and their life and professional experiences. - And we should probably mention, there are very successful EI Whitney students who did not have really strong high school transcripts and they are still wildly successful at Yale and they're really compelling applicants. - Yeah, absolutely. So for any non-traditional student who's looking to fill out this application, how can they showcase that they're a good fit for Yale? - I can think of two ways. First, while the admissions committee takes many factors into consideration when evaluating applications, I think it is important for non-traditional students to present strong, recent academic credentials. While some EI Whitney students had consistently strong academic records throughout their educational careers, like Mark said, many successful EI Whitney applicants did not have stellar high school records and may even have had weak earlier college records. However, the admissions committee does expect to see that our strongest applicants have done well in recent college courses. Where you go to college is less important than the courses you take and how well you do in those courses. Many EI Whitney students took classes at their local community colleges before submitting a Yale application. I would encourage students thinking about applying to the EI Whitney students program to take classes that are similar to those offered at Yale, meaning liberal arts and science courses. Students should consider taking courses in math, preferably through at least pre-calculas, as well as classes that focus on writing skills. And secondly, I think EI Whitney applicants should reflect upon how they would engage the Yale community, both inside and outside of the classroom. And I mean engagement broadly. I encourage applicants to give some thought to how they would contribute different perspectives to discussions in a seminar class or over lunch in the dining hall. If they are a veteran or a current active duty service member, how will they kind of share their experiences with other students? And you mentioned veterans and active duty military members. I wanna say to anyone who's listening, who's served in the military, thank you for your service. We want these students to be part of the Yale Undergraduate Experience. And Patricia, what should this group of folks, veterans and active duty service members, what should they know about the EI Whitney students program? - Oh, absolutely. I want our military connected students to know that we, as well as all other students, to know that Yale, a Yale education is affordable. Veterans should know that Yale is a participant in the Yellow Ribbon program, which is a provision of the 9/11 GI Bill. Yale, unlike some other colleges, we do not cap the number of yellow ribbon veterans who can be enrolled at Yale College. Veterans can choose to replace their military education benefits with Yale's generous, neat, based financial aid. Some of our veterans will save their military education benefits for graduate professional schools. Veterans and non-traditional students should also know that they're not restricted to applying only to the EI Whitney students program, depending on the number of transferable credits. They're eligible to apply to the first year program or to the transfer program. We have had veterans admitted to Yale through all three of these programs. That said, veterans usually find that the EI Whitney students program is a better fit for them because it is a program tailored to adult students, to people who have had professional experiences. We have student veterans who have served in the military for just two years, as well as people who have had over 20 years of military experience. The veteran community here at Yale is small, that's supported and tight knit. - That's great. Patricia, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your insights. This is really helpful. - Oh, this was fun. Thank you, Hannah and Mark, for inviting me. - We'll have to have you back soon. So there you have it. These programs are small, but they're really important. - The same values and priorities guide us as we consider these applicants, but they are especially interesting and different in just the best ways. - Yeah, these programs are just a great way for Yale to provide access to students with an even wider array of backgrounds and experiences. And the students who matriculate through these programs make Yale a richer and more interesting place to study. - All right, thanks to our friend and colleague Jill, who's both our sound engineer and a great admissions officer. Thanks to Reed for lending us his office. And thanks to former admissions officer Andrew Brick Johnson, who composes our music. Check him out at AndrewBrickJohnson.com. - If you have comments or an idea for an episode, drop us a line at Yale Admissions Podcast at gmail.com. And finally, remember that the views expressed in this podcast are ours, and don't necessarily represent those of Yale University.