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Happy Sunday y'all, Elise Hugh here. Today we're bringing you a Sunday pick where we share an episode of another podcast from Ted, hand-picked by us for you. What do radio personality Ira Glass, New York City Mayor, Zoran Mamdani, and Ted Podcast host Chris Duffy have in common? They all have practiced an unexpected skill that makes them more human. Improv comedy, and they all learned it from master improv teacher Rick Andrews. On this episode of How to Be a Better Human, Rick joins host Chris to discuss the life lessons they learned from giving up control and practicing how to "yes" and "in conversations." They also modeled improv games, such as alibi, 7 things, fortunately and unfortunately and more, so you can sprinkle in some improvisational silliness to build better communication and trust in your work and personal life. How to be a better human looks in unexpected places for new ways to improve and show up for one another. If you want to hear more insights like this, listen to How to Be a Better Human wherever you get your podcasts. Learn all about Ted's podcasts at podcast. Ted.com This is How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host Chris Duffy, and one of my favorite things in the entire world is improv comedy. I know that is very much not cool and hip to say that one of my favorite things in the entire universe is adults playing make-believe together, but it is true. I absolutely love it. And I think that one of the things that I love the most about it, whether it's watching it or performing it myself, is that good improv skills in my opinion are the same as good people's skills. How do you listen really closely? How do you make other people look good? How do you deal with unexpected situations? How do you remember something that is fun and playful and bring it back later on? They're all skills that are kind of basic to improv, but they're also skills that make people the kinds of people that I want to spend time with, the kinds of people that I want to be around. And today's guest, Rick Andrews, is an incredible improviser. He is very much someone who I want to spend time with. But more than just being a great performer, Rick is an amazing teacher. He has been teaching for years. He's taught so, so, so many people, and what he's learned is that we can all get better at playing, at improvising, and making our lives funnier, more exciting, and more of an all-around good time. We're going to talk so much more about how to do that, but first we're going to take a quick break for a few words from our sponsors. And we are back. Today, we are talking about improv with Rick Andrews. Hi, my name is Rick Andrews, I teach and perform improvisation. So Rick, you've been performing and teaching for a really long time, and I have been a fan of your work for a really long time. From the first time I saw you and every time I see you, I'm always struck by what a talented performer you are. But I also am struck by the fact that your real passion, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't actually about being on stage and getting the attention for yourself. It's really about teaching and sharing improvisation with others. Yeah, I really enjoy performing, and I find that very satisfying, but it feels like a, I don't know, it's like a sugar rush, a little bit, that kind of fades quickly. And I feel like teaching and watching people get excited and fall in love with something that you are excited about feels really meaningful in a nice way, and part of what is nice about improvs, I don't know, it's not just about being funny, so I think if it was just kind of like, I'll teach you how to be funny, I don't know that I would feel deeply passionate about it. I think it's more about the sense of presence and creativity and being playful and being less self-judgmental. I think a lot of those are things that help people not freak out, they'll certainly help me that way. Like, there's something meaningful that's being delivered in the, almost my accident in the act of like learning how to improvise. Well, so for people who don't aren't already familiar with your work, I mean, you're too humble to fully brag for yourself, but I will just say from my perspective, you are truly regarded as like one of the single greatest improv teachers in the world. And you have taught everyone from, you've taught children, you've taught senior citizens, you've taught people in big corporations, you've taught Ira Glass from this American life, you've taught Ira and Mabdani, the mayor of New York before he was the mayor. So you've, you've really like taught this huge range of people and over many, many years. What do you think the biggest thing that a regular person, someone who is not interested in being a comedy professional, gets out of learning improv? I think managing uncertainty in improv is making up an idea, a scene, a story on the fly, right? And the inherent nature of that is that you cannot be in control of where it's going to go. And I think people's brains do not like change and that kind of disrupted feeling. And so there's this like protective, cognitive shell that we throw around where we lock into ideas or we would kind of disconnect from what's that kind of actually going on. And I think it's not that improv like makes you better at like knowing what's going to happen. It kind of seems like they knew they know where it's going, but you don't develop this kind of like clairvoyance. You instead just get very comfortable not knowing what's going to happen and like managing uncertainty. But the extra anxiety on top of it of like managing that uncertainty of like all the stuff that I can control, I think, becomes that you don't like turn it off entirely, but that voice gets quieter, I think. I've noticed that it's kind of not possible to be bored if you're hanging out with like three or four improvisers. It's not really like because if nothing's happening, well, it's kind of not really possible, right? Like you're sitting at the airport terminal and there's a delay like, you know, instead of people just like complaining all the time, yeah, I feel like people just like look around a little bit and like, hey, look at how that guy walks. That's interesting. Yeah. That sign doesn't make any sense. You know, why? Why do they call it Hudson News? You know, we're at a, like, there's just a kind of curiosity about the present moment that I think does like translate off of the stage a little bit. The way that we are talking right now is actually kind of a great illustration of what building the muscles of improvisation have allowed you to do because we are talking like not around the day that you are moving across continents, but you're like, you're doing this interview. And then in several hours, you will leave for the airport to move from the United States to Europe. And you seem so unbothered by that, but the fact of we're like talking now and then you're going to have to leave to the airport and bring your family to an entirely new continent. I would be, even though I have studied improv too, I would be like pouring sweat and so stressed. And yet you seem remarkably unstressed about the fact that you're about to do a transcontinental move. I might be like missing a section of my brain, you know, but I do think that like I taught all my classes yesterday, like Sundays a day that I teach in performance and my classes were like, oh, when are you moving? And I was like tomorrow. And they were all like, why are you here? Yes. That's exactly right. I like, I didn't understand the question of the reaction. I was like, like, teach on Sundays. This is the last class, you know? I feel like improv is like, I've heard from people it's like, it helps on dates and job interviews or whatever. Not that that's like the purpose of it, you know, like how, like why you should do it. But it is one of those things where anything where you're in this situation where you feel a little nervous. You don't know how it's going to go. Some of my asked questions you weren't expecting. It's a lot of like just managing that moment a little bit. And I think you're doing that through like an enhanced set of like listening skills a little bit, like just paying attention being in the moment, noticing stuff. But also like I think it builds self confidence in a more genuine way, you know, it's not about like, I don't know, pretending to be this confident person. It's like, improv is a lot of, as I'm sure you felt learning it and getting really good at it, right? It's like you are trying your hand at it and not great at it at first. But you're doing this context where people are building off of every idea you say no matter how bad it is and people support you. So you kind of get to prove your ideas validity to yourself. I feel like I constantly was having moments where I was like, I don't know what I should do and then I would say a thing and you're seeing partners like great. Yeah. And then you're like, okay, yeah, that was good. You know, like it is like putting the bumpers up on the bowling early lanes. You like can't actually get a gutter ball. That's what improv feels to me. In a lot of ways, it reveals like a truth that we all know, right? Which is that you can actually only control the thing in the present moment, right? Like you only control what you're doing right now. You've acknowledged the truth that like a lot of us pretend that we don't. Yeah. Do I wish I had packed more earlier? Absolutely. Like you learn the skill and then you stop like planning for things. It's just like, no matter how much you plan, you can't control everything. And so planning is really good, but it's just, it's never going to go exactly how you think it's going to go. And it's never going to be. And I think some of that also like, there's a reduction of anxiety. There's also kind of when you're so anxious and worried about it and it saps you from the present, you're missing out on all these really wonderful moments. We both have like young kids and I wonder if you felt some of this being with like a little kid where they just like stop and like look at a leaf totally and they will sit there and look at a leaf for like five minutes. And it's not an activity that I often do like walk around. But it's awesome. Look another leaf totally rocks. And I should stop more and look at a leaf like thinking about all the 10 things I have to do. I'm kind of missing the thing that is happening. And in private building scenes, that's where a lot of the joy and discovery comes from that we get to figure out these fun ideas together. And in life, it feels like when I remind myself to do that, I'm like actually, I noticed I noticed things that are beautiful or sad or interesting or compelling or funny or whatever it is. Yeah, well, one of the things that I think is so great about spending time with a young kid is they combine what we've been talking about like that real presence in the moment because they just live in the moment. But they also combine it with this silliness. And I think it's not always intentional. the kid. But I think as an adult, this is the other flip side of improv is the silliness and play that I love. I mean, I was trying to think in preparation for this interview while my first memory of you was. And it was watching you perform at an improv festival. I think it was in Boston. And you were in anthropomorphized a gumball machine. And you were performing as the gumball machine. And it was so silly. And I just remember laughing so hard, like truly tears coming down my cheeks as I was watching you being impressed. I was doing improv. It's like, it's like someone who like gets black out drunk. I don't remember what they did. But you're like, if you say so, yeah, well, also you've done this like thousands of times. That sounds long. I would do that again if I did that. That sounds great. Yeah. Well, but this is what I mean. It's like it was really fun. But it was also so silly. Like you were in the moment pretending to be that. But also that's not something that like you could be very in the moment for your whole life and never pretend to be a gumball machine because there's a silliness there that is also like that bringing that child like play back into your life as an adult is also a big piece of this too. I think that's part of also what it's like, it feels like kind of meaningful silliness, you know, because it's it's a clever thing, not like the kind of like silly, jockey thing that feels like unfun is like talking to someone and they're trying to take everything you say and like be funny, you know, and do a bit. And it's kind of, um, intolerable, you know, because it's not really like a genuine engagement with you versus the sense of kind of playfulness where they're there and engaging with you, but they just have seen the world with a playful eye. And, you know, pretending to be a gumball machine that was alive would probably not be very fun if I was doing with as much people who acted like what I was doing was so lame and stupid. And, but you're doing in this context where everybody else, I'm sure I don't remember that show, but I'm sure they were all like, this is great. And they like built around it. And so it's kind of like you learn over time that like one like the confidence and the lack of like self criticism, I think is actually like what the audience is engaging with like they want to watch you guys like play in this like full, um, fully present way. And also you're like freed up to do that through the support of it. Like I, I don't know that I have it in me to like do that by myself, you know, to just be, everybody's got, you know, no people have your back. And they're going to make whatever you do look good. It just creates this huge space where you actually feel like you can't fail or it's kind of like not even on you to figure out like why it's good. It's like other people are going to do that job. And I think that, um, that's a huge part of it. It's the like rapport and the trust in like the corporate term of like psychological safety. I get to think that that is like a lot of what improv is building. This is what I have trouble sometimes explaining to people who haven't done improv a lot, um, or even people who are improvisers who just improvise in a different way than I do is that, um, I think the skill is really great. And I think it builds these cool muscles of attention and playfulness and connectivity. But to me, the thing that actually I really love to the most about improv and I like doing stand up to I like doing all sorts of comedy. Um, the thing that I love the most about improv was when you perform a lot with the same people. Hmm. So not just once, right? Like once you still feel that, oh, you have my back, but like when you really get to know each other and you know what they think is funny and you know the things that they have references for and the things that they don't have cultural references for, um, that like deep knowledge of each other combined with the trust that you're going to make each other look good. That to me was like what was so magic was being in a, in a moment where I knew like my friend, Tim actually does not know anything about Shakespeare. And yet if I say to him, yeah, you're a famous Shakespearean actor, he will immediately pretend to be a Shakespearean actor and he'll say everything wrong. And we will just agree that that is correct. And the audience will laugh because it's so obvious how he does not know Shakespeare. And yet he's going for it because we're all going to make him look good on that. Like that is the joy, I think. Yeah, it is really nice to be in a supportive context. I remember going back to my college improv team, like reunion show and there are a bunch of folks there who I hit and provides with when I was a freshman and they were seniors, I really only did improv with them for one year. And they were now, this was 10 years after I graduated. So it was, everybody was full adults and I had seen people yet in a long time. And it was that thing of like you kind of expect, oh, it's that person, then you're kind of hanging out and you're like, oh, we actually don't know each other that well at all. I'm talking 10 years. And then we did the show. It kind of felt like no time to pass, just so weird because it was like, oh, yeah, I actually didn't know these people in this like social way that much. I wasn't like hanging out with them every weekend necessarily, but I knew them in this playful way. The way I knew them is this like language of communication that we have as for improvising together. There is that weird kind of connection where you're like, oh, yeah, I just feel like we're like on the same wavelength at this point. And I also think it's a feeling you can get in a really like long term relationship, whether that is, you know, a romantic relationship or a friend relationship. But improv, I think, especially the way that you teach it, it can be a way to, it's a short cut to get there. You can get that kind of emotional intimacy and that safety with people in a much shorter amount of time, which is why I think a lot of people do really value this in like a corporate or work setting or universities because you want to have that closeness, but you don't have, you know, 10 years of hanging out to get to that place. I do think it is helpful in all the ways that we're talking about, but it's not like you go in the room being like the entire point of everything we're doing is to be more confident or to be a better doctor or to have friends or whatever. Yeah. It's kind of like you learn and grow through the act of like trying to develop a craft and like trying to like do this task together. Like a lot of people I know, I feel like are really, I don't know, I admire or mature in these ways. I do think like, you know, weird ways in times a lot of them kind of found themselves through the act of doing a thing that wasn't, the purpose of it wasn't to like fix them or make them something better or whatever. It was just kind of like they got really into like rock climbing or they got super into like playing the piano or whatever it is. And then in each one of these like skills or whatever, if you apply yourself to it, it has like different lessons to teach you, you know, like learning and then use the most when it takes a kind of dedication and like a commitment to practice that on, for example, improv does not look like you know. So yeah, like rock climbing requires a little bit of like facing like physical fears in a way that like you're probably scary, but not like I'm going to fall off the rock way. And yet many people do feel that. I think a lot of people feel that like visceral physical fear of like I'm going to be in front of people performing, being silly. Like that is, and I think a lot of people fear that more than falling off the rock. But you kind of know that you're actually not going to die when you are rock climbing you, you might actually, yeah, I guess that's true. So it's like I think each one of these things like it's like pulling different parts of a potential version of you kind of out like your current personality is like interacting with this like craft or skill or game or sport or or tippy and like having that right angle on it versus yeah, when I have students who are like, for example, they're like really obsessed with getting good. It's actually really unfun energy to perform with. I just want to do it right, you know. And it's kind of like, yeah, this is cool. I'm like, you know, keep doing it and see how it goes. Like that actually turns into building a lot of skills pretty quickly. So there's something kind of nice about it that like we have this group task. And the actual focus is not on like what I'm getting out of this one. I'm what I'm supposed to doing. It's all on helping the group, helping the moment, helping the scene, being present so that you can be successful kind of requires for getting yourself in it, which I think is like a really one of the active ingredients and like why this thing is fun and also like meaningful in a way that doesn't feel like disposable. We're going to send a quick break and then we will be right back. And we are back. The funniest people who I've ever done and probably are often almost clueless as to why the laugh is happening. And it's because they're so committed to just like saying the thing that they're seeing or they say something that is unusual, but it's true to what they're feeling. And that gets this huge laugh and it's so fun to play with them because they're unexpected, but they're also genuine. And that's that's something that doesn't really work in other contexts. But I think in real life, we love that too, right? Like you walk into a room and it smells really bad. And a bunch of people are pretending like it doesn't smell bad. And then someone just goes, it smells horrible in here. That person calling out the reality of it is often the person where you're like, okay, at least that one person is real. And I think in an impression that's often the funniest thing that a person can do is just to say exactly what has happened. Oh totally. Yeah. I'm remembering a guy who used to perform at the theater who was like, he was like one of the worst actors I'd ever seen in my entire life. But he had just incredible stage charm. He was just like one of these guys that his his action personality lacked that like sensor. He was just like, it never occurred to him to not say exactly what popped into his brain, even if there was no possible way to justify or explain why it is. And so it's like on paper, he would be like making the wrong choice, but it always felt joyful and fun. And it was so fun to play with because you knew it was like authentic and genuine versus someone who's kind of like, you know, probably talk a lot about like, yes, right? Like how can I build off this idea? So it's like, sometimes I'm going to start a scene and they're like, Dad, I have to go to the party. The other person's like, son, you're 35. And it gets this kind of cheap laugh where it's kind of like that laugh kind of comes at the expense of your partner. Like you know, they don't think that's 35, right? Yeah, yeah. What really matters actually is not whether we get the ideas, right? It's that we're trying to do it. So it's kind of like, what was my honest read on your thing? And if I get it wrong, it actually still feels really fun and joyful. You know, people talk about yes and is like, we agree, and then we build. But I think there's this other piece in exactly what you said, right? Someone starts a scene and they say, I have to go to the potty daddy. And then the person says, son, you're 35. The reason denying what that person said, it doesn't work like on a technical, comedic level. It gets this cheap laugh and doesn't keep going. But the thing that I've, it took me a long time to put my finger on is one of the things that is so beautiful about Improv is like, I walk on stage and I am not my physical form. I am not like a white dad in his late 30s, right? I could be anything. I could be a giant red balloon. I could be a gumball machine. I could be a spaceship. I could be a tiny little squirrel. I could be a woman from 1835, right? Like I could be anything. And so what you have to do as the partner is to pay attention to how that person is defining themselves. And if you don't and you just put a definition on them, that is not true to what they've said. said in the scene, it's you kind of like putting your preconceptions on them. And you see this a lot of times where people like won't let, for example, like a female improviser, they won't let them play a male character. And it's like, well, that is you bringing all your own crap into the scene, rather than actually existing in the scene. And I think that's like, that's where the beauty is. It's like actually just seeing the person as what they are claiming to be and defining themselves as rather than your idea of who they have to be. - You know, five students in the 60s and 70s, like, you know, sometimes it's like, come on, be like, nice kick flip. And then the person's like, thanks, grandpa. And it's like, I don't think he thought he was your grandpa. You know, people who are 24, like only, they maybe don't have a bunch of friends who are 70 times. So they're only association to like your grandpa, right? And it's like, it's that cool way of seeing kind of beyond each other. Like, let's take the thing of, I need to go to the potty, it's on your 35, right? So if you do it in the opposite way, where it's like, Dad, I need to go to the potty, right? Good embraces are just getting as much as possible information as out of the is can. So not only did I tell you that you're my dad, but I think I probably pretty strongly imply that we are not at home, right? Because if they can use the potty, like they could maybe go by themselves at a certain point, you know, or whatever, like they, but there's also something in the tone of voice. It's like, I kind of need your help, whatever. So, you know, if we're at home, I do need you to like help me. I'm not able to like go by myself kind of thing. You actually already have narrowed the frame in a subtle way, but if you're ignoring all that to get this joke, you guys should all pick up on any of those potential information. So you like lose it. And if you really think about what you're doing there at a cognitive level, and you're kind of thinking, what do I think you think is true about the scene? And because this is a fictional world, I'm essentially asking myself, how are you using the world? It's kind of like the literal definition of empathy, right? It's like trying to see the world from someone else's eyes. And I do think that's kind of like why that thing works is I have to do this perspective taking in order to not just understand what did you say or do, but like what was not where are you going with it? 'Cause there is no, we're not in control of that, but like given all of the clues I have, what do I think you think is happening right now, right? - I actually do buy into why so many like business people or leaders or people in stressful situations take improv workshops, it's for exactly that, right? Because how do you not bring your own ideas about what this person is telling you? But instead, really hear what someone is saying and get all the information out of it. To not put them in a box, but rather to actually hear what's in the moment is a really incredibly and super valuable skill for a leader. - I did a workshop with a bunch of physicians recently and we ended up having this really interesting conversation about the difference between yeah and yeah. It's like, okay, does it hurt if I do this? Yeah, does it hurt if I do this? Yeah, they're different, right? Like one is like eight and the other is like 6.5 or whatever, right? But it's all the tone and I think like, my inner thing is that a lot of doctors get trained kind of like how sales people get trained sometimes or it's like here's the like, the things you're going to say and then depending on what they answer, you're gonna go down this path or this path or it's like, I'm asking you these 12 questions right in a row. And so I might hear the actual answers you give, but if I'm in my head to think about what the next question is, I now may be missing some of the like little human things, which is ultimately like. Like sometimes when I go to the doctor, I don't just want like information about what is wrong with me, but I want someone to like tell me that I'm gonna be okay. You know what I mean? Which is like an emotional need that is not a medical one. And you're not gonna pick up on that in the symptoms that I present. You're gonna pick up on that and like, noticing my body language and my facial expressions and my tone of voice. So you walk into a room full of doctors and you are there to lead an improv workshop. What's an exercise that you do with them that you feel like unlocks something inside of them? A lot of what we start with is just warming up, do a little name game, get to know each other, have a little fun, some group exercises, just so people can feel like, oh, this is actually not so hard and we're doing it. It was a yes and exercise that I often use in these workshops at companies and in level one in prep class. It's called Alibime. Do you remember this game, Chris? - I don't know. - Remind me. - Okay, it's great. So the set up is like, I'm the facilitator. I am a parent and then we get two people up and they are my teenage children who are siblings. And so the set up is that like, they're coming home late, past their curfew. And what they've really been doing is they were at a party. But I will ground them. That's not a good reason to be late, right? So instead the two teenagers have to come up with a lie on the spot about why they're late. If they contributed to each other, that's when I know that they're lying. But if they support each other, then they might get out of trouble. So if I'm like, why are you late? And the person was like, oh, we got stuck in traffic. But when the other person was like, no, we didn't. We were swallowed by a whale. - Okay. - You know, but it was like, oh, we got stuck in traffic. Yeah, there was a big event at the aquarium. Yeah, they brought, they having a blue whale. So the first time ever a blue whale captivity, et cetera, et cetera. So now we're like riffing off of each other. The context is very intuitive that we are on the same team. And it's not, I'm not trying to win this game. We both succeed by making each other look good. - Okay, and then what about muscle building exercises that people do? I mean, I'll tell you one that I think of a lot, which is like seven things. So it's just naming seven things in the category. And I think of that as just a great way of getting out of the idea of right and wrong, right? But you give someone the category they name as fast as they can. - So Chris, seven winter little big sports. - Okay, ready? - Yeah. - Skiing. - One. - Sletting. - Two. - Bob sledding. - Three. - Ice skating. - Four. - Ice skating with jumping. - Five. - Ice skating with falling. - Six. - Rocket launching. - Seven, yeah, yeah. - The cereal. - Okay. - Yeah, great. - You did the thing too, which is like, okay, now do a version where like explicitly, you have to be wrong. So I'm going to give you the category and it's only incorrect answers. - Ooh, great, okay, let's do that. - So it's fun. - Seven made up incorrect breakfast cereals. - Okay. Sardine trends. - More on king cobra. - Two. - Sharp edges. - Three. - Square buttons. - Four. - Taco littles. - Five. - Giant squares. - Six. - Tree balls. - Seven, amazing. - Okay. - If this is a group of people who've done as a member of a court, often play that game. And when people say the answers that are wrong, even experienced rises, you can see their face going like, this is so stupid. Like sharp edges, what am I saying? But then I'm like, okay, now just do some scenes like with that as the start, where it's like, so we'll bring you to the dark today. I think I had too many sharp edges. - I hope all this morning, it's not going down well, you know. It's like, when you're saying the wrong answer, your brain still kind of goes like ah, ah. And then if someone else just takes that and is like, actually I love that, I think that's brilliant. I want to watch the Olympic sport that's skating with jumps. It's not like skating, it's speed skating with jumps. It's like ice hurdles, you know. - Yeah. - Like taking the wrong thing and like figuring out well, why could that be great? It's like such a good creative muscle. And then that's where a lot of like actual solutions come from. It's not like, when I'm running brainstorm sessions, it's extremely rare that the favorite idea by the end of the session started as someone saying something very safe and bland and ask covering. And then people rift that into innovativeness. Instead, it starts as someone saying something that is stupid, that is not practical and is maybe even actually literally a joke. And then it's got this kernel to it. And then someone says like, yeah, we can't do that. But like, oh, what about that with this way, you know, and you're actually like working it into practicality, right? - I think if there's some reason why it can't be the obvious answer or like the 10% close to the obvious answer, isn't right. That's where people struggle because even for me, right, just there, like couldn't be lower stakes, it is uncomfortable to say things that are wrong and different and weird. And I love that that game just like builds the muscle of it where in the lowest stakes way, it's just like, okay, I'm just, I have to say something. The only unacceptable answer is nothing. The only thing that is not right is if I stop and wait until I can think of something that is quote unquote correct. That's the only way to be wrong. - It's about trying to get the right answer together. You know, like I'm trying to read your reality and like being wrong is fun and fine if I'm generally doing it. I was having a class this summer and this, I don't know, kind of a middle-aged American guy, I think I get it right now. Someone started a scene and was like, you know, basically doing speed, you know the movie and they were like, I can't drive the bus below for two miles an hour, it's gonna explode. - And the other person, I think it just moved from like, Taiwan or Singapore, like they've been in the country like three months, they were 20, like three. They have not seen the 90s action movie speed. So they were just like, slow down, you're hurting, might tell me, you know, it was like, it was such a much funnier scene being like, there is no bomb actually. It's just like the bus driver is crazy and he's making everybody like car sick and it was like, oh yeah, we met in this like middle space between both people's associations. So it's like, it's actually not even knowing the reference. It's just like, I'm taking the text of what you gave me, I'm making my best interpretation of it. And actually like both people had more fun in the new third scene that was created out of both of their ideas than either one of them would have had if the scene had just gone exactly like each of them was expected. It makes sense. I think that's like why we're trying to, why do we get together to be creative? Why do we do brainstorm sessions with people? Why do we like riff? It's because there's this kind of like, I'm not gonna have a weird metaphor, but like it's like a geneful of ideas. Like if it's just me riffing myself, it's like I'm not getting enough like genetic diversity, you know, in the gene pool. It's like zoos got to trade their animals with what the other zoo is, right? It's like you have different experiences I do and you have slightly different associations or very different associations than I do. And that's not a weakness, that's a strength. So when I say something, you're gonna have this slightly different association to it. And then your response is not gonna do what I was expecting and vice versa. - You've taught a lot of people for many years. Have you ever done a private improv lesson? Like for one person? Is that even possible? What would it be like? - If people are determined to pay me to do it, I will be gradually do it. Like sometimes I'll do public speaking training for like executive folks. And. And I'm always trying to get them to do a small group with a couple of their colleagues. And like the higher people up are, the more nervous they are about that. Because it's so much more fun, it opens up the kinds of exercises you can do. And then it feels like, okay, it's not just one person and then me like, hey, try this. It's like the two or three of us. You need some of the play with, you know, in a lot of these exercises, it's kind of involved in balancing out the other person. And a lot of the benefits that we were talking about earlier, I think come from that bowling alley, bumper gutter thing. So it's kind of like, if the goal is to like build your creativity and confidence, I think actually doing it by yourself might seem less scary, but it's ultimately like less impactful than having at least one of the person there who you have to like trust and like put yourself out there for it, because then they are the bumper that helps, and you're their bumper, like you're both kind of nudging each other back on the lane in these nice ways. Because of this podcast and because of the book that are out, I've interviewed several therapists and psychologists who study anxiety. One of the things that they all talked about that feels really related here is how one of the most effective treatments for people who are anxious is to just have them test the thing that they're afraid of against reality, right? Like you're afraid that if you go out in the street, something terrible will happen. So let's go out in the street for five minutes. Just see, like you're walking on the sidewalk, does something terrible happen? No. Okay, maybe that means that like it's a valid fear, but it's not a guaranteed thing that is going to happen. I think the reason why speaking and playing in a group of people is so helpful is I think it does take that fear that people have of like I need to prepare all alone because otherwise things are going to be disastrous when people hear me speak in public to just go like let's have a disaster in front of some people and see how bad it is and it ends up not being bad at all. It ends up being fun. I mean, I wonder if this is, you're not always interviewing people who do a thing that you also are sure, yeah, Chris is also very humble, he's also extremely good at improv and knows I'll talk about it. Like, what is Chris before doing improv or comedy or performing and like now, like can you really feel this like phase shift of like the way it's kind of like shaped you? It's a great question. I mean, my honest answer is that I think so much of who I am is because of doing improv and comedy and I started doing it when I was young. So I wasn't like a fully formed person yet. You know, I was like in college and still figuring out who I was. So it's hard for me to say like, this is who I was before because I think the formation of who I am, it's kind of tied to it. But I think the biggest thing was realizing that the best thing I could do if I wanted to look good was to not make myself look good, but to make the people that I was there with look good. Like that was the secret trick is you want everyone to enjoy the show. Don't make it so you're the best person in the show. Make it so the other person on stage is the best person in the show. And then they're trying to do the same thing and through that, you all look great. I think that was a really big lesson because I think that's counterintuitive to how I'm wired where I would like to be regarded as the best person in the show. You know, I'm like, right? But what if I did this and then realizing that that actually was always the way to backfire and make yourself look bad is to, you know, try and steal the joke rather than give the joke away. And I mean, not like steal the joke like steal like a written joke, but like steal the punch line, steal the laugh rather than like give the laugh to your partner. It's that thing of like, am I worried about like how I'm looking? You know, it's just, it's not a comfortable space and it is more fun actually. Like long term, it is more enjoyable and fun to try to make other people succeed. Yeah, because the kinds of things that you all can do as a group when everyone is playing that way far, far outpace, what you can do if everybody is out there trying to get their own individual laughs and make themselves look good. It's like a basketball team where like everybody's shooting the second they get the ball. It's like, you're not going to play very well. You need people to like cut and drive and set picks and hustle and defense. I'm like, it's funny watching the all-street game and like every sport because it sucks so much. It's like all the best people and like they don't know how to play with each other. So like everyone has like maxed out of skill levels, but like you kind of need some guy who like doesn't make, you know, the all-star salary who's his only job is to like just harass people on defense at the free point line or whatever, right? Like these pieces all have to fit together in some way. And the name of it's not like you have this designated role, but it's kind of like we're all trying to like be whatever the show needs that night. Kind of across the board, any successful creative person I've talked to or no, we'll tell you that one of the biggest differences between like when they actually became successful and before when they had this idea of what it meant to be a musician or a writer or a comedian or whatever it is that they do an artist. One of the most consistent things that I really just feel like everyone experiences is I thought this was a thing that you do alone or you do just with your little group like your little band. And I realized that success is actually being part of a scene is actually being like supported and challenged and inspired by other people. And so even in the fields that are like like a novelist is not a team sport. And yet it is such an unbelievably rare novelist whose work is not the product of their relationships and their creative partnerships and the people who inspire them. And so that thing of like together we are smarter than we could ever be alone. Oh yeah. I think Brian Eno is the one who coined this term "senius" like not genius but "senius." Yeah. It's the genius of the scene. And I think that is such a profound creative truth. I was just trying to do something about music that like pre-internet any non-commercial genre was hyper-geographically focused. I remember like all the grunge bands came out of Seattle, right? And like most of the 80s thrash little bands were like from San Francisco. I'm a metalhead so this is most of my like knowledge but like of the like top 10 like seminal 80s death metal bands. Like all 10 of them are either from Tampa Bay, Florida or Birmingham, England. Like it's so random because it's kind of like you could not hear like got a little death metal on the radio. Like you could only see it at a show or someone played it for you. So it was like there was a band of Tampa Bay and like they were they figured the thing out and the people watching and they were like let's try something like that. And they were all it was this kind of collective thing. And like when you go to write a novel you sit down by yourself. But you are also like in conversation with like all of the books that you could ever read. And all of the knowledge that's been passed to you and all of your experiences. It's all kind of rattling around in there. And yeah, it is like being able to see and watch people do it is itself kind of part of the the seniors and like part of the conversation about it. Okay. But before we go, is there another exercise or in probability that you like that we could do with just two just the two of us doing a little fortunately, unfortunately. It's like a really simple one that will play for pretty well in audio or video. Right. Yeah. Okay. So it's really just simple fun more about for like the managing of start to thing. So this is a game that like anybody can do. They don't have to practice or done in prof. So feel free to play this at home. We're going to make a story together and we're going to build it one sentence at a time. So I'll give the first sentence. And then every other sentence after that is going to alternate with the beginning with the phrase, fortunately or unfortunately. So if I said I went to the pet store to get a puppy, then the next then you would say like unfortunately the pet store only had lizards. And then I would say like fortunately, I'm a huge lizard fan. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, the only lizard left was a commoto dragon. Fortunately, I've got a huge yard, et cetera, et cetera. Would you like to be fortunately or unfortunately? I'll be fortunately. So I'll start with a bit of a negative news. I was walking to the train and I tripped on the curb. Fortunately, you're going to get a huge class action settlement. Yeah. Fortunately, I just can't stand lawyers. I really don't have it in me to just deal with being in court. Fortunately, your lawyer also hates other lawyers. Yeah. Unfortunately, my lawyer is my ex and it's just been real intense doing these filing the paperwork. Fortunately, this presents an incredible opportunity for you to sort through all of the issues that drove you apart in your relationship. Unfortunately, I'm also remembering why we broke up. Fortunately, she's really starting to see that you weren't as bad as she had made you out to be. Unfortunately, she's already fallen in love with Dale, who's her new new partner. Fortunately, Dale seems like a cool guy. Unfortunately, he doesn't like me at all. Fortunately, Dale is teaching you about setting clear boundaries. A lesson you needed to learn. Unfortunately, I am a slow learner. Awesome. Great. Yeah. That's super silly game and it's like fun in that it always goes adression that is literally impossible to predict from the first sentence. I did this a while ago and the first sentence was, "I'm walking into you're walking into a restaurant for a first date." And then very, what's the group of like 20 people? And the very first person said, "Unfortunately, I had a heart attack and died in the restaurant." I could feel the whole group go like, "Well, what are we going to do now?" And the next person was like, "Fortunately, I became a ghost, a friendly ghost who haunted the restaurant and helped people have good dates." And this whole story became about like how we were like helping other people on their dates as a ghost. And it was like, the thing that feels like you quote unquote ruined it or like, "That's a mistake." Actually, it turns out sometimes to be the best part of the idea that is the memorable portion of it. I love that. The thing that you think is the disaster might turn out to be the greatest gift of all. Well, Rick Andrews, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and this was no exception. And can I say, I'm sure listeners who don't know you might wonder, "God, she seems like a really nice guy, but sometimes in real life, people are actually jerks, and I just want to confirm everybody that Chris is the actual nicest person, one of the nicest people I know on the planet Earth." Oh, that's so nice. I thought you were going to go for the cheap punchline and say, "He's a monster, but I appreciate that you don't." No. Like, you're so lovely and everybody who knows you feels the same way. Thanks, man. Thanks a lot for having me on. I appreciate it. That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Rick Andrews. You can find him online at rickandruesimprov.com. I am your host. post "Christuffy" and my new book "Humour Me" is out now, you can find out more about my book and all my other projects at christuffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is Put Together by a group of Zipzabs Ops? On the TED side, I'm getting yes-and-ed by Danielle Lavella-Rezo-Ban-Ban-Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shashar, Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lani, Lot Tonsikasun, Manivong, Antonio Ley, and Joseph DeBrine. Ryan Lash edits the video and picks the perfect moment to black out each scene, and Mateus Salis checks the facts to make sure we are not inventing our sources or statistics. From the PRX side, there are the Harold Knight of Audio, Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez, thanks to you for listening. You are the best-seeing partner I could ever ask for, please send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it, someone who has your back. We will be back next week, with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, don't make any plans. Just improvise. [BLANK_AUDIO]