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LATITUDE MEDIA COVERING THE NEW FRONTIERS OF THE ENERGY TRANSITION I'm Shail Khan. I invest in early-stage companies at Energy Impact Partners. Welcome to Catalyst. So, I drive a Kia EV9. Most days, it sits in my garage with a 100-kilowatt-hour battery inside, doing nothing. That's about seven powerwalls worth of storage from an energy capacity perspective. And it's sitting parked and idle. And I'm not unusual. An electric car, in general, spends 90-95% of its life doing exactly that. V to G, feeding that power back into the grid at times, has been the obvious answer to that waste for 30 years or something like that. And for 30 years, it's stayed mostly pilots. The standard explanation was always pretty similar. The cars sometimes technically couldn't send power back. The hardware just wasn't there. But that excuse, at least, is running out quickly. Almost every major. Every major automaker is now shipping or has announced bidirectional models. Every Cybertruck on the road can already export north of 11 kilowatts. Mine can do it, too. GM says it alone has more than 250,000 bidirectional-capable EVs on our roads. At about 10 kilowatts each, that's 2,500 megawatts of nameplate capacity. And that's one automaker. Which means we're about to run the real experiment. If the hardware is here, and that capacity still doesn't show up on the grid, then the hardware wasn't really the thing standing in the way. What's left is arguably harder. There is a question of warranties. Do they treat grid exports as off-limits? Is it ambiguous? Is it clear? There are degradation fears that people have had about batteries that have to be overcome. The protocols maybe don't talk to each other. And the economics, I think, most importantly, have to close for the person who owns the car. GM, for example, their bidirectional charging bundle runs about $7,000 before installation. And grid protocols. Grid programs so far have paid drivers a lot less than that. It just doesn't pencil. It may be different for vehicle-to-home, V to H, where you're using it for backup power, but not so much for feeding it back into the grid. But again, that may be changing. My guest today is Steve Letender, who is the senior advisor at the Vehicle Grid Integration Council and the founder and editor of the newsletter V2Gnews.com. We get into why this resource that's been sitting here growing for 30 years might finally actually be arriving. And delivering value. And what still has to break its way for that to happen. That's coming up next. Demand flexibility is now an essential part of the data center speed-to-power playbook. But how do data centers actually curtail load? GridBeyond is the end-to-end solution for flexible energy management. GridBeyond's advanced DERMS and VPP platform is tailored to what data centers care about most. 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VPPs deploy in 60 to 100 days. At 40 to 60% less cost than traditional infrastructure. And they perform like conventional generation from day one. Learn about the flexibility platform for the modern grid at energyhub.com. Steve, welcome. Thank you. Great to be here. All right, so we're going to talk V to G. I want to start from the technical perspective. What's actually required for a vehicle to discharge its battery into the grid? Yeah, there's three key components. The first is a bidirectional electric vehicle. It has to have the ability to draw power from the battery and send it to buildings or to the grid. The second piece is you have to have a bidirectional charger that can both send power to the vehicle and can also receive power and send it through the charger back to buildings or to the grid. And the third piece is you need some sort of software platform that manages and optimizes that power flow in response to constraints that are established by the customer, the owner of the EV, to ensure that the vehicle is first and foremost providing the mobility services that the vehicle is purchased for from the consumer. So those three pieces. And we can take it another level, particularly around where the conversion of the power from DC. We know we take DC power from a battery and we convert it to AC power for use in buildings. In buildings, in the grid, and there's two different flavors of architecture out there. And I'm happy to talk about that if you think that would be of interest. Yeah, let's do that. Talk about how you can configure it. And then we'll talk about sort of like where we are today in terms of those, do we have those three things out in the wild and where? Yeah, absolutely. So there's what we call a DC and an AC architecture. And that really defines where the conversion in a device called an inverter, which is a grid interactive inverter. It takes the DC power, and converts it to AC power, as I mentioned before. For the DC architecture, that conversion happens off-board the vehicle. It's either in the charger or a wall box that's adjacent to the charger. So it's off-board. So it's drawing DC power from the EV, converting it to AC power off-board and sending it to the building or to the grid. And then the other flavor is V2G AC. And this is where their onboard conversion occurs. So the vehicle, sends AC power from the vehicle to an AC bi-directional charger. And so just to give you a sense of where we are commercially, the Tesla Cybertruck V2G product is an AC architecture. So there's an onboard inverter capabilities and the Ford F-150 and the GM suite of EVs that have V2H and increasingly V2G are based on that off-board. V2G DC architecture. Which partially explains, I think we'll talk about this more later, but it's much more expensive as I understand it. You already have a Cybertruck or if you already have an F-150 Lightning and you want to do V2G, it's going to be more expensive for you to do so on the F-150 Lightning because of what you need to purchase in addition to the vehicle than it is on the Cybertruck. Yeah. You know, I should note that there's been quite a debate in the industry, AC versus DC, in terms of, you know, what are the advantages and disadvantages. And there is a pretty clear advantage to the AC architecture around costs that you mentioned. So for the DC architecture, the charging station has to be a DC charger or it has to have, you know, that capability to convert off-board from DC to AC. And so that device, again, it's kind of early days, they're kind of limited production, but that device, it's quite expensive. And so the promise, as you noted, is with the V2G AC, the onboard conversion, you have a lower cost AC bidirectional charger, but there are costs that are then put onto the vehicle to have that grid-interactive inverter onboard the vehicle, whereas the V2G DC architecture, you don't have that additional cost of that grid-interactive inverter on the vehicle. That cost is off the vehicle and the charger or the wall box. And in the medium and heavy duty space, one of the big markets for V2G is in the school bus space. And the V2G DC is the predominant architecture there. We don't anticipate significant cost advantages from moving that larger platform to an AC architecture. So I think the jury suggests that for residential light duty vehicles that the V2G AC will offer likely a lower cost option for consumers. And so given that, like, why hasn't GM or Ford, why haven't they gone AC native? Is it that they're not like, they're not yet fully V2G native, you know? And it's sort of like, we want it to be an add-on, not endemic to the vehicle, or is it something else? Well, you know, that's a great question. I don't know that I have, you know, super great visibility into their internal decision-making processes, but one of the clear issues is around standards. The V2G AC, ULC, standards literally just like a month ago were approved, the UL 1741 SC, which is the safety standard for V2G AC systems. And so this is to comply with IEEE 1511.8, 1511, 1511.8-2018, which is, you know, the governance for interconnecting of DERs to the grid system. So to date today, there wasn't really a approved, standard for V2G AC and now that's just very recently changed. There is another pathway for getting interconnection approval for V2G AC systems, which Tesla has pursued in some jurisdictions, and we can get into that as well. So I think one of the issues were the standards weren't yet developed, and there perhaps was a simpler, more direct pathway for them to kind of do this with the DC architecture initially. But we are seeing companies, including I think Rivian has announced that they've got their R2 coming to market, which will be a V2G AC architecture with an onboard inverter. And there are other auto manufacturers as well that I think are seriously considering pivoting to that AC architecture. So that's a good segue. We've alluded to some of this. We talked about the Cybertruck, we talked about the F-150, we talked about GM generally, and then you just mentioned Rivian. But orient me, if I want, if I'm trying to buy a passenger car, I'm going to buy a V2G AC. I'm going to buy a V2G AC. I'm going to do a passenger vehicle and I want to do V2G today. What are my suite of options and what does it look like for me to actually enable V2G on those options? Yeah. You know, Shale, the way to really think about it is a V2G system, which would include both the EV and the charger. And then if the OEM is enabling full V2G capabilities, that will be part of kind of the software, the app that comes with your purchase. So today, when you think about what are the compatible EVs and bi-directional chargers on the market, you know, it's a fairly limited number of options. So when I, before I joined Vehicle Grid Integration Council as a senior advisor, I was working for a company called Fermata Energy, and we deployed dozens of bi-directional charging projects across the country using a Nissan LEAF, which was bi-directional when it was first introduced in 2015. And we had built our own bi-directional DC charger based on the CHAdeMO platform. And so we were deploying those systems across the country. Of course, the CHAdeMO standard has now gone out of favor in the United States. And so the new offerings are based either on CCS or the NAC, the North American Charging Standard. And so the Tesla system with the Cybertruck is commercially available today with that full suite of the truck and their charging system. And then we've got kind of the OEM, kind of packaged offerings, which is the Ford F-150 Lightning and their Ford Station Pro with the Sunrun box that does the conversion. Similarly, General Motors has a OEM branded charger that's bi-directional capable, can do full V to G, and that's compatible with, I think, most of their electric vehicle offerings on the market today. And then aside from those kind of OEM linked pairings, there are also emerging partnership between charger manufacturers and EV manufacturers. And one example of that would be Kia has partnered with Wallbox, which is a Spanish charger manufacturer. And so the Kia EV9 is compatible with the Wallbox charging system to do a full V to G capability. And then there's another company that we work with called Decibel, and they have a home energy station, which includes a bi-directional charger. And they have partnered with Volvo and Polar to have their systems be compatible with their EV. And so we expect that kind of pairing between different manufacturers, the EVs and charging stations to increase. Similarly, we'll see more OEMs have that kind of matched paired charging between the vehicle and the charger itself. So those are some examples of existing products on the market. And then, and again, in the school bus space, most all of the electric school buses that are coming off the bus are bi-directional capable. And there are now several higher power DC bi-directional chargers that are compatible with those school buses. So again, when you think about V to G, you want to think about light duty versus medium heavy duty and what's happening in those two different segments. Right. So it seems like at the high level, I guess, focusing on the passenger segment, you know, somewhat limited number of options today, but a bunch of options that are emerging or available either directly through the OEM or through these partnerships. As usual, Tesla doing it all in-house and then a bunch of others sort of doing it through partnerships and so on. Let's talk about the economics though. Like, does it make sense to do it? So walk me through the cost, I guess, first. And I know this, as we said before, this differs whether you're, you have a cyber truck or whether you have a something else, but what is the, what is the upfront, what's the CapEx of making yourself V to G capable? And then as it stands today, what does monetization look like? Yeah, no, that's, that's, it's a, it's a great question. It's the billion dollar question. And, you know, we are again, early days, limited production. We're not manufacturing these chargers at scale. And so, you know, today, like a V to G DC system is going to be quite expensive around, you know, 8 to 10 K for the full installation. I don't have good numbers on the V to G AC. The belief is that it's going to significantly shrink the cost differential between a unidirectional and a bidirectional charging system. So, you know, it's hard to say exactly what that differential is today. I would guess somewhere in, you know, the high hundreds to thousands or something, it's 1,000 to something in that range. So it is really, it's difficult to really pinpoint what that incremental cost is for bidirectional, given kind of the, you know, the cost of, you know, the early stage of the industry and the limited deployments that we've seen nationally. But one thing I think it's important to talk about is, is you talked about what's, what's the, what's the value of having that bidirectional capability. And so the only reason you would invest in a bidirectional charging system, if there is some sort of value or opportunity to earn revenue from having that capability. And in that case, there are very limited opportunities across the country to actually monetize that bidirectional capability in terms of providing grid services. If you simply want to back up your home during an emergency, like that's a value that exists today. And, you know, the alternative is buying like a whole home Generac generator for your home, instead of spending that amount of money, whatever that would cost, you would invest in your home bidirectional charging system that would provide whole home backup power. And my sense is that that's going to do a whole home backup generator. And so, so it's, it's a huge, important question about, you know, does the value cover the incremental cost of going bidirectional? I think for simply home backup power, the answer is likely, yes, it does. In terms of doing full B2G, providing grid services, the question is, you know, where do utilities provide compensation? What is the interconnection cost to participate in those programs? And we have seen in some jurisdictions where utilities are compensating resources for providing peak shaving in the 200 to 300 KW per season range, you know, for a 10 KW bidirectional charging system, you could potentially earn, you know, $3,000 per year by providing that grid service in a demand response or some other type of grid services program, BPP programs that are emerging out there. And so, you know, I think that's a huge, huge, huge, huge, huge, huge, I mean, that's pretty compelling. If you can get, if you can get that much and you have a 10 kilowatt system, then, you know, then even at today's costs, which are pretty high outside of Tesla, you pay back in a few years. And I can imagine a lot of people doing that. So I, cause until that last bit, my takeaway from what you said was sort of like bullish V2H and bearish V2G, you know, like if you're using it for backup V2H, that being V2H, then, then it makes a lot of sense because you can compare it against a whole home generator or maybe like a, you know, three power walls or whatever. And then it's kind of compelling, but if you're trying to do V2G, the monetization opportunities aren't really there, but it sounds like you're saying when, when the monetization opportunities arrive, when these utility programs arrive, or if people are doing aggregated distributed capacity or whatever, then there's enough juice in the revenue that you might pay back pretty quickly. Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah. And, you know, I think you can think about like stacking the value of, you know, the home backup power value and stack that with, you know, the incremental value that you receive from, from providing grid services to the utility. And so what we've seen is both the Ford system and the GM system was originally marketed and sold for V2H. And then through a software upgrade, they were able to unlock the full V2G capability for those customers located in those utility service territories where there was a monetization opportunity. You know, we see have opportunity in, in, in California and some utility programs, some pilot programs, Massachusetts, New York, we're seeing a emerging opportunity in Maryland, Colorado, Connecticut. So, you know, I do think, you know, as you unlock that capability, that there will be increasing opportunities for consumers to add to the value of their bi-directional charging system beyond the simple home emergency backup functionality. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time. Connecting to the grid quickly means two things, building distributed energy and having a plan for demand flexibility. GridBeyond helps with both. GridBeyond's DERMS and VPP platform unlocks the potential of distributed assets and dispatches flexibility into the right market at the right time. And this is more than software. GridBeyond supports developers every step of the way, from modeling your highest ROI energy mix to orchestrating the full set of assets around a data center. The track record speaks for itself. GridBeyond manages over 1,400 sites and more than 3.7 gigawatts of load across Europe, the UK, and the US. Learn more at gridbeyond.com or click the link in the show notes. If you work in energy or climate, you already know the company's antenna group has helped build. For three decades, they've been the communications and marketing partner behind the industry's breakout companies, category creators, and market leaders. Today, their team is working across the most complex and complex industries, and they're working across the most complex and complex areas of the energy economy, from data centers and grid modernization to nuclear, geothermal, storage, critical materials, and next-generation technologies. Antenna helps ambitious companies become the names everyone in the market knows, trusts, and wants to work with. They build reputation, elevate executives, drive demand, and turn momentum into market leadership. If your company is ready to lead its market, Antenna is ready to help you get there. Visit antennagroup.com. When you harness the power of millions of DERs in a VPP and put artificial intelligence behind the dispatch, the outcomes exceed conventional generation. Energy Hub's DERMS platform has been trained on years of real dispatch data from over 2.6 million DERs, so utilities can plan with confidence. That means consistent load reduction across a four-hour event window, even during the widest, most uncertain peak periods. Utilities target, shape, and verify capacity down to the meter. Unlock flexible capacity that costs 40 to 60 percent less to deploy than traditional infrastructure in a fraction of the time it takes you to break ground on a peaker plant. Learn more at energyhub.com. I want to get through some of the, like, the reasons that people have been skeptical of V2G in the past, right? I think that the main ones, apart from the economics, is there enough value there, have largely been, will it degrade my battery? Is it going to break my warranty? Sort of logistical, I guess, considerations like that. How do you think about that set of things? What have we learned about that over time? Yeah, no, that's the first question I get whenever I'm at a conference, you know, well, what about the battery and the warranties? And that's a real important consideration, very important. And, you know, I got to say there's, it's quite a bit of gray area. Again, referencing the company I used to work at, Fermata Energy, we actually worked very closely with Nissan, and Nissan actually, you know, they've been doing a lot of work on publicly stated in their warranty, that use of the Fermata Energy charger and bi-directional charging platform would not impact the warranty on their product. So that was kind of the first, I think, in the nation, in the world, where an OEM said, yes, we're going to approve the use of this vehicle for bi-directional charging. There hasn't been much beyond that other than Ford, Ford, Ford, Ford, Ford, Ford, Ford, Ford, Ford, Ford. So there is, you know, a lot of work to be done there and clarity among the OEMs to give consumers the confidence that if they use this capability, that it wouldn't void the warranty. And I've got to believe that given that they're bringing this capability, integrating into electric vehicles and marketing as such, that that will have to explicitly come up with some parameters around what types of bi-directional charging uses would be acceptable under the existing warranty. And I'm quite confident that, you know, we'll see some of that in the coming years. And there's been, I'm sure as many of your listeners may know, there's been a rash of reports lately that's suggesting that ED batteries are lasting, you know, much longer than originally anticipated. And the other thing to note is that when you think of using an ED battery for traction in a vehicle, you know, you've got 150, 125 kW, whereas if you're using it for grid services, you know, you're, you're using maybe 10 kW through the bi-directional charger. So the, the rate of discharge and the impact on the, the battery is, is less when you're discharging at a lower rate relative to what you're actually doing when you're driving the vehicle, accelerating into traffic and whatnot. What do you think in terms of the other thing that I think people have asked about historically is, okay, if I'm going to use my vehicle as backup for my home, I'm using it in the scenario wherein the grid is down. If the grid is down, I can't charge my vehicle either. And so I'm concerned about, you know, deploying all of my range, deploying all of my battery. My presumption is that, you know, in these programs in the, in the software there, you know, you can sort of set parameters. Say I don't want my battery to go below whatever percent or something like that. And I think that's a good thing. How are you seeing the interaction between those types of settings that people are setting up and then the relative to the value that that battery actually has, whether in a utility market program or just as whole home backup? Yeah. Yeah. There, there, that's a great question. There isn't a lot of good data out there in terms of what consumers are placing in terms of limits on, on how the EV can be used for these programs. But I do think that there's a lot of good data out there in terms of how the EV can be used for these programs. But I do think, you know, first and foremost, the EV, as I mentioned at the beginning, is, is, is purchased for mobility, for transportation purposes. And so when it makes sense, when the vehicle is available and it doesn't restrict mobility, then that, that vehicle could provide home backup power and could provide grid services as appropriate. And so, you know, there's a lot of good data out there in terms of the mobility capabilities of the vehicle that it was purchased for. But when you think about, I mean, my EV sits in my garage. I work from home, you know, it sits in my garage for, you know, days at a time without ever being used. And I think there's other folks, you know, that it wouldn't make sense, but where they're doing long commutes every day. I often talk about, you know, V2G as part of the sharing economy. Not everyone chooses to use a personal vehicle to drive people from the airport to the hotel every day. On the weekends, you know, for, through Uber. But there's enough people that are willing to do that with their lifestyle, their opportunity costs are such that it makes economic sense for them to do that. And again, not everyone is going to participate in V2G programs, but if even a, a fraction of the EV owners who have the interest and the opportunity costs, which makes sense for them, then that could represent a, a significant resource for the grid. And really, you know, as I'm sure, again, your listeners know, the grid is facing multiple challenges around load growth, affordability, and EVs, I think, can be a real important part of that affordability equation by using the grid more efficiently and managing how we charge vehicles, and then also using the discharge capability to make even better use of our existing infrastructure. So I, I moved to Newhouse, what, eight months ago? Something like that. And I'm in Northern California, in the Bay Area. And so I'm freshly going through the rooftop solar and storage process, purchasing process. And one of the nice things now in that market, because it's more mature, is if you're in a place where you could participate in a VPP program, it's sort of like a streamlined part of the sales process. I want to get solar and storage, and I can elect to participate, or it depends on how the offering is made. But like, as part of my initial purchase decision, I say, yes, I want to be part of this program. Do we have that yet anywhere in V2G land? Like, is Tesla selling Cybertrucks in Texas and saying, if you sign up for this program, we'll aggregate you and, you know, loop it into our retail? We'll be at, we're at Jen Taylor in Texas, so we'll loop it into our retail book or something like that? Or is it too early? No, that is my understanding that, that Tesla, you know, does have kind of an in-app process to participate in these programs. They're started in Texas, they're working with Pacific Gas and Electric in California to participate in their V2X pilot program. And so I believe it is kind of a streamlined in-app process where you sign up for participation in these programs. And, you know, I have talked to folks in the OEMs, and they do envision, you know, a future where that all happens, you know, at point of sale, where you're at the dealership, you're making your decision, and the dealer rep is not knowledgeable about what programs are available, and you would automatically kind of be enrolled in those programs with your permission. Are we there yet today? Definitely not. But it does seem like that would be, you know, the preferred approach to having that kind of point of sale decision where the consumer can easily enroll in a utility program. So how do you see this going over the next few years? Is this like, I could see a couple of paths. I mean, one being this never really takes off, but I kind of think it's going to. But I could either see it being there's some inflection point, all of a sudden, over the course of a couple of years, like every new EV that's introduced on the market is bidirectional capable at a minimum. And then the programs start to emerge and, you know, people sign up in mass and this actually becomes like a significant asset on the scale of what we're deploying for residential batteries, stationary batteries very quickly. Or I could see this being one of these things where like, it just, it's so idiosyncratic at the individual OEM level. And, you know, it takes a long time for people to figure out how to actually sell it to customers. And then meanwhile, the monetization isn't really there in most places. And so it ends up being predominantly a home backup thing, but it's not sold when people want home backup. And so it kind of like grows incrementally, but it doesn't become commonplace. You're obviously a bull on the space, but like, how do you see it going? Yeah, no, no, I appreciate that question. And, you know, I often use rooftop solar as an analogy to vehicle to go. And I think that's a really good question. I think it's a really good question. Like, you know, when at some point, solar was expensive, it didn't make any sense, why would you connect to the grid? And then what launched the rooftop solar industry was regulation, right? Each state had to pass interconnection, had to provide net metering compensation in many states offered incentives. And so there was a view that rooftop solar was a public good that we should encourage consumers because of the benefits, the public good of rooftop solar. And so I think that's a really good question. And so they put in place the regulations and the policies. Fast forward 20 years, we've got a multi-billion dollar rooftop solar industry, the price of solar has come down dramatically. And similarly, I think we need policy leadership to say yes, V to G is an important part of the energy ecosystem. There have been numerous studies that have shown that electric vehicles are the single largest source of grid flexibility that will be on the grid in the not too distant future. And that we need to put in place policies and regulations that will support consumers on their journey to adopt this technology. So I do think, I think you're right, we can go in different directions. Like any new emerging technology, there isn't certainty. But when you look at the trends, most every major OEM manufacturer has announced plans to bring electric vehicles into the grid. And so I think this is going to be a very common feature of vehicles going forward. It's whether or not there's going to be ways to leverage these EVs with their bidirectional capabilities to deliver value to the grid through programs and different ways that will really reward consumers for providing those services to the grid. So at VGIC, Vehicle Grid Integration Council, we represent the industry, OEMs, car manufacturers that all see this vision where EVs don't become a burden on the grid, where they actually create real benefits. And the more people that recognize the opportunity, the more policy leadership we have, the more likely it is that this technology will become more common. Can I offer a counterpoint using your own metaphor, I guess, or comparison? Well, I think what unlocked residential solar, so I think what you said, the regulation policy was table stakes, like it had to happen. Net metering had to happen. And so I think that's going to be in place at that time, et cetera. But actually, what caused the inflection for residential solar in the late 2000s, which is really when the market started to take off, was financing. It was when SolarCity and Sunrun and Sungevity and all these companies introduced the PPA and lease model. And so the value proposition went from put down a bunch of capital up front and you'll get a seven-year payback to put down very little or zero capital up front and you'll save money on day one. And that was the dominant model of solar for quite a while. And I can imagine something similar happening in V2G. Again, if the programs for V2G monetization and the grid become there, then you can imagine a scenario where the OEM or somebody says, okay, if you're buying this electric vehicle, buy the bidirectional charger. And in fact, we won't charge you a dime extra for it. It's not an incremental cost. It's the same cost as what your charger would have been otherwise. And not only that, but you're going to get whole home backup for free. But you're going to get whole home backup for free. And you're going to get you have to let us use the battery sometimes when there's a grid event under these conditions. But you're getting free home backup. That's a super compelling value proposition. I'd like to see that emerge. I think something like that is what truly unlocks the market. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And what made that solar lease kind of a bankable was the fact that you had that policy foundation where there was guaranteed value over time that you could then finance against and create that kind of thing for consumers. And so really what we need for V2G is a bankable revenue stream that can create the environment where these types of financing and leasing innovation can take hold and really encourage mass adoption. I agree 100%. All right, Steve, this was very fun. Thank you for joining. Thank you. Appreciate the opportunity. Steve Letendre is a senior advisor at the Vehicle Grid Integration Council and the founder and editor of V2Gnews.com. This show is a production of Latitude Media. You can head over to Latitude Media for more information. And if you'd like to learn more about Latitude Media, please visit Latitude Media for links to today's topics. This episode is produced by Max Savage-Levinson. Mixing and theme song by Sean Marquand. Anne Bailey edits the video version of the show. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. All of our episodes are now on YouTube. You can subscribe to Latitude Media for episodes of this podcast and Open Circuit. You can find the audio version of this show anywhere you get your podcasts. I'm Shail Khan, and this is Catalyst. Thank you.