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LATITUDE MEDIA COVERING THE NEW FRONTIERS OF THE ENERGY TRANSITION I'm Shail Khan. I invest in early-stage companies and energy impact partners. Welcome to Catalyst. So last week on the show, I talked to Brian Janis about the data center backlash. What else? And I alluded to this piece that my partner and frequent guest on the show, Andy Lubershain, published recently about one component of the backlash, which is the impact of data centers on electricity prices for customers. The question is essentially whether data centers are causing electricity prices to rise, to which Andy's answer was essentially no and also yes. And I think it's really important and a not well-understood dynamic why these can both be true. So I brought Andy back on and we're talking through it. That's coming up next. Demand flexibility is now an essential part of the data center speed to power playbook. But how do data centers actually curtail load? GridBeyond is the end-to-end solution for flexible energy management. GridBeyond's advanced DERMS and VPP platform is tailored to what data centers care about most, maximizing reliability, intelligently meeting curtailment obligations, reducing costs, and managing all your distributed resources in one place. Ready to transform your distributed energy management? Get started at gridbeyond.com. Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the communications and marketing partner behind the most influential companies in energy, climate, and infrastructure. For three decades, Antenna has helped ambitious companies stand out, build market leadership, and become category-defining brands. From breakthrough startups to global industry leaders, their team brings the expertise, relationships, and track record to accelerate your momentum. Learn more at antennagroup.com. The power plant for the modern grid isn't a building. It's a network. Energy Hub's DERMS platform connects batteries, EVs, thermostats, and commercial and industrial sites into virtual power plants that over 230 utilities dispatch as reliable grid capacity day in, day out. VPPs deploy in 60 to 100 days at 40 to 60 percent less cost than traditional infrastructure, and they perform like conventional generation from day one. Learn about the flexibility platform for the modern grid at energyhub.com. Andy, welcome back. I'm so excited to be back once again, talking yet again about data centers and energy and the interplay of those two things. As one does. So, okay, so you wrote this piece, I don't know, a couple weeks ago that I thought made one, basically one central point that I haven't really seen anybody else make and that I think is really important because there's all of this dialogue right now about the impact of data centers on electricity prices. And it's, you know, it's a really important piece. And I think it's wrapped up in the backlash, et cetera, et cetera. But the key point that I think you made that I think we should tease out in great detail is the separation of, I would say, the local from the global. And the distinguishing between those two tells you kind of two very different stories in answer to that question of what is the impact of data centers on electricity prices. So let's talk about local first. What is the evidence today? Like, what can we say with any degree of definitiveness about the impact of data centers on electricity prices? The local impact of data centers on electricity prices. In other words, the impact that a data center within one's utility territory has on that ratepayer's bill. I should say to begin with, the reason that I wrote this piece and the reason I've been thinking about this question is, of course, because so many people in my life, not just professionally, but also just friends and family members, because they know I work in energy, of course, and because everyone in the public now has some association between data centers and energy. Which is part of the issue here. You know, I have lots of people like my mom and some random friends being like, are data centers making my electricity bill go up? And I had to, I realized that there is not an easy answer to that. There's not one simple answer. The answer is nuanced and it really depends on your perspective. As we'll come around to, I think, globally speaking, the answer is yes. But let's start with local, because in that context, I think the answer is generally no. Because, you know, if you think about it, like, you know, naively, if you think about adding a new large electricity load to any utility system, any utility territory, it's going to have two impacts. It's going to cost something to bring that new load online, to interconnect it, to serve it with new generation, to do whatever you need to do to get the energy delivered to that large new load in your system. And then it's also going to have another impact. It's going to have another impact, which is going to consume a lot of energy over time. And if you think about, like, the basic framework for how utilities charge for their services, which is a highly regulated rate structure, regulated at the federal level, regulated at the state level. If you are served by a cooperative or municipal utility, it's even at the city or the sort of community level, right? But the basic structure is always the same. The numerator is how much does it cost in aggregate to deliver energy to all the customers? Across that utility service area. And the denominator is how many kilowatt hours do you sell? So it's dollars per kilowatt hour. And there's all kinds of nuance and detail in how that basic formula is translated into everyone's rates, which are different across different customer classes, residential, commercial, industrial. But basically, how much does it cost in aggregate? How many kilowatt hours are we selling in aggregate? And again, naively, if you think about adding a data center to any utility service territory, it's probably going to add, like, it's probably going to add more to the denominator of that equation than to the numerator. Because chances are, it's going to, there's, well, let me step back for a second. It's probably going to add more to the denominator of that equation than to the numerator of that equation. And that was especially true, say, five years ago, where in a lot of utility service there was some spare capacity in the system, some headroom on the grid, right? So that you didn't necessarily need to make lots of huge upgrades in order to bring a new data center online. Maybe you had enough generation capacity to serve that new data center with some mild transmission upgrades to, you know, interconnected to the grid, but there was enough generation already, or maybe you need to build a little bit of new generation to serve it, but not to serve the entire thing. And, but you're getting the full benefit of that data center's denominator effect because you're bringing all these new kilowatt hours online. So sort of that basic formula would suggest that in many cases, like, you should think that bringing a new data center online will reduce rates. In reality, what we're seeing today, of course, is that in most utility service territories, it's not the case that there's a lot of headroom left on the grid. There's no more headroom left in the grid. There's no more spare capacity in most places, which means that oftentimes you will have to build new power generation. You will have to make some additional upgrades, maybe build some significant new transmission line or upgrades to major substations, in which case the picture is less clear, right? You're going to add a significant amount to the numerator of the utility's basic cost equation. You're also adding a lot to the denominator. It's a question mark, whether, in that instance, a data center should make everyone's rates go up or down or stay neutral. But that basic equation is a useful formula and a useful framework. But in reality, it's not how rates are always set. Data centers are extraordinarily large customers in most service sites. And if we look at a size utility, most of the kind of hundreds of megawatt scale data centers we're seeing today would add 10%, 20%, 30% or more if we're getting up to gigascale data centers to the utility's total load. So they're extraordinary customers. And so the utilities are, I think, understandably and correctly taking extraordinary care to make sure that the specific tariffs that they work out with these data center customers, they're not going to be the ones that are going to be the ones that are going to be in the data centers. And the specific other negotiated agreements they work out with those customers are ensuring that the denominator effect is bigger, that the data center is paying their fair share and oftentimes more than their fair share with a buffer relative to the kilowatt hours they add to the system. So in fact, I think the utilities and the data centers are doing a pretty good job at the local level. When any given new data center comes to the data center, they're going to be doing a pretty good job at the local level. They're going to be doing a pretty good job at the local level. And so I think the utilities are You know, you described the fundamental equation, I think the key thing to understand is that the numerator, the cost to serve, it's really, in this context, it's a net cost to serve, right? It's a question of how much does the utility need to invest net of what they're getting out of the tariff from the data center. And so I think the phases that we've gone through, like I think we're in phase three now maybe of how this is all played out. Phase one is what you described, which is like there's a period when data centers were already, you know, we were in cloud world and Bitcoin world and there were data centers and they were getting built and there was headroom on the grid and the denominator effect was like clear and it was fine. Nobody was really upset about it. In fact, if anything, utilities were like creating incentives. Utilities in states, right? Sales tax exemptions and so on. Everybody was creating incentives for data centers. Okay, then the AI boom comes and data centers start flooding. All over the country in utility territories. And there was a period of time when I think, broadly speaking, utilities were not, they had not yet adapted to what they could command. Or maybe they couldn't command it yet. I don't know. But either way, it hadn't changed that much what they were commanding in terms of tariffs and bring your own capacity and all these things. And so then there was this period in between when like, yeah, I think the evidence was sort of mixed and it wasn't entirely clear at the local level where data centers increasing bill. And now I think we're entering phase three where utilities have wisened up to this entirely. It is very clear that they hold all the cards and everybody is so desperate to get capacity. They'll kind of do whatever they can. And so it's becoming standard and commonplace to ensure that when the announcement goes out that the utility has agreed to interconnect a new data center alongside that announcement, they can say, and this is at a bare minimum, not going to increase rates and oftentimes now going to reduce rates. So I think it is becoming increasingly clear now that like hyperscale data centers at the local level, because of how the market dynamics are playing out, are mostly going to keep flat or decrease rates locally. I agree. And I would say trending towards are going to have to decrease rates locally. Like you're going to have to be able to say that. Because of this surge in public opposition to data center development that we've seen, particularly at the local level. And I thought it was really telling. There was a Gallup poll recently, which is one of the many polls that is showing that the public has turned pretty dramatically against data centers. And that much is very clear at this point. That's kind of like very widely reported on. But what I thought was interesting is if you dig one level deeper into the response. In this Gallup poll, and you ask people, okay, why do you, people who are averse to having a data center built anywhere near them, you ask why. The number one reason is water consumption, which was kind of surprising to me. And it's actually, as far as I understand it, this is not an area of expertise for me. But I think it's probably a bit of a red herring in most places outside of very sort of water restricted areas. But the number two and the number three reason people cite have to do with energy use. The number two. The number two reason is basically like it's going to use too much energy. And the number three reason is it's going to make my electricity prices go up. So for better or for worse, the utilities and the data center operators are pretty much tied hand in hand in terms of public perception here. And I think you're going to have to make the deal sweet enough for people. You're going to have to make it really behooves both of those parties to be able to say with great confidence, this is going to reduce your electricity. Bill, you know, at least relative to the baseline without this data center in the area. And I should say, like, there's good data on this already. There was a study that we put out pretty recently, I think just a couple of months ago. And they were just looking at different, you know, utility utility territories across the country and the impact of data center load on on rates in those territories. And even if. If you're not controlling for any kind of correlated variables that might bias the analysis, just kind of like looking at that in a very, again, naive way, you would see that there's basically no correlation between more data centers and higher electricity prices. And when you do control for other variables that might bias the analysis. Epri found that basically, on average, data centers are lowering customer bills a little bit. So we are seeing it's not a major impact at something like six percent, but data centers have had a beneficial impact for consumers up to this point. I think you sort of alluded to something that I think is like a really key point, too, which we'll talk about in the context of part two of your thesis on the global side. But it's basically like our data centers locally reducing rates in an absolute sense or reducing rates in a relative sense. Relative to what they otherwise would have been, because I I've done my own little informal survey of friends and family and spouse and asked them. And I mean, I've gotten a remarkably negative set of feedback from people about data centers for and basically the rank order from that Gallup survey that you said is basically what I've heard, too. It's like water first and then energy and then maybe some other stuff, pollution and, you know, blight or whatever. But mostly it's those things. But there's a component of it that I picked up, too, which is like, you know, I'll follow up and ask the question of like, OK, but what if it were going what if the utility told you it's actually going to reduce rates or something like that? And, you know, what if I told you that the water consumption was insignificant? And there's an additional layer to it, which is like they just don't trust any of the players who are telling them these things, because it's either going to be the data center company. Or the utility or maybe the politicians. And like, there's not a lot of trust in many cases for any of those. And so you there is this risk that on a relative basis, data centers do reduce rates, but rates still go up for reasons we're going to talk about in just a minute. And consumers, you know, you just don't get the credit for it. I hadn't actually thought about that. But that is obviously like, yes, absolutely. That's a risk, because if you think at a global level. As we'll talk about, data centers are absolutely going to be pushing up rates and other factors right in the supply chain. Rates are going up for most people in most places, I think, in the years to come. Then they won't. Most people don't think about the counterfactual. And if they've heard that this data center was supposed to make their utility bill go down and their utility bill does not go down. Yeah, clearly that will just compound the problem of lack of trust here. Now, there are some places where I think it will go down in an absolute sense. And that's what some of these some of these recent announcements that we've seen of like, we actually intend to reduce customers bills by X dollar average of X dollars per month. And and maybe people will notice that. So it's going to be situation specific. But OK, so I think we've made the core point of like generally speaking. The direction of travel right now is if a large load shows up in your utility territory, probably it's going to have a zero to negative effect on your electricity bill currently. However, let's talk about the global perspective then. What would you say is the impact of data centers? We'll start with just data centers and we can broaden it out. But what is the impact of data centers on electricity prices in a global sense? So at a global level, data centers. Data centers are one factor among many, but I'd say they're the biggest factor that is causing this global growth in demand for electricity, which is happening so quickly now, especially because of data centers and the urgency with which data center developers want to bring them online. It's happening so quickly that it kind of counts as like a demand shock in a macroeconomic sense, at least within this. In this sector, right, there's a demand shock and supply chains, like basically every step in the supply chain for equipment for the electricity system to deploying that equipment and getting it online and hooking everything up is bottlenecked and cannot keep up with demand. And because of that, we're seeing, I think, systemic pressure on prices for almost everything. In the supply chain that eventually it takes to get kilowatt hours delivered to your home. And so this is the big problem, basically. Like, we're in this period of surging demand. Electric system operators, utilities need to build a lot of new infrastructure. They also need to keep up with the existing infrastructure, a lot of which is beginning to reach the end of its depreciation cycle, its useful life, right? Like, I thought it was a really interesting stat from the Edison Electric. Basically, two-thirds of all utility spending across the board in the United States. is just for maintenance and hardening of the grid. So keeping up with basic maintenance, like keeping the system running, swapping out new equipment for broken old down equipment, and the most mission-critical hardening things for areas that are being hit by intense storms or wildfire risk and stuff like that. Like sort of two-thirds of the expenditures they're making today across utilities are non-negotiable and it has nothing to do with growth, right? All that stuff would be happening even if the data center, boom, were not happening. And so all that stuff is getting more expensive too because of the impact that data center growth is having on the supply chain. So two-thirds of their spend is going to be higher because of what's happening at a global level. In addition, we talked about how today there's no more headroom in most parts of the electricity system. Like there's no spare capacity. Any new capacity you build is going to be much more expensive than the capacity that we built 20 years ago because of this demand shock and supply chain crunch. And keep in mind, a lot of the capacity that we already have has been at least partially or maybe fully depreciated over decades. And so we're adding a bunch of new, new costs to the system at a global level that there's very little that, basically nothing that your friendly local utility or data center developer can do about, no matter what kind of special tariff or agreement they negotiate for that individual facility. All right, let's be a little more specific. Like name some of the things that have become more expensive and how much more expensive have they become? It's hard to not name things that have become more expensive, but like. Every component of the grid. Conductor is like twice as expensive. So like basic aluminum, steel reinforced conductor. Transformers are two plus times more expensive. Switch gear is two times more expensive. Gas power plants are two to three times more expensive. Renewables have gotten more expensive to interconnect to the grid. And by the way, like renewables have been one of the really positive trends. For electricity prices in the United States over the past 10 years, because there have been many places in the country, especially when you consider the tax credits that renewables have benefited from, where the levelized cost of energy, the PPA price that you would pay for wind or solar power is lower than the average cost of fossil fuel generation that that energy is displacing. And so that's been a trend that has been very much in favor of lower electricity prices in the past 10 years. Now those tax credits over the next four or five years will be expiring. And in addition, renewables are facing more interconnection costs. There's been some issues in the renewable supply chain as well, which have caused costs to increase. So we're seeing much higher costs for renewables, much higher costs for gas. Basically, every part of the system has gotten a lot more expensive. Oh, labor. That's something I think you and I have talked about on the pod before too, right? Everything is more expensive for adding, anything to the power system right now. Right. And then in addition to that, you've said this a couple of times, like it's not the only factor. There are other factors too that are like an inflationary pressure on electricity prices. And so we should acknowledge those. And those are market specific to some extent. But in the United States, just to like some examples of things that I think about as being risking inflationary pressure on electricity prices, we have tariffs on various things. I mean, that also has affected the cost of renewables and batteries. We have LNG exports that on balance should increase the cost of natural gas. In the United States, we have general inflation and cost of capital. I mean, there's like a bunch of stuff that is totally orthogonal to the rest of this, but also just like adds to the otherwise inflationary pressure on electricity. Yeah, I'm especially worried actually now about that macroeconomic pressure, right? I mean, we seem to be moving into a high, higher interest rate environment in general, certainly in kind of global capital markets. And the power system is a big capital expenditure for society that we make sort of generationally. And it would be really great to have been making that investment at the scale we're making it today, 10 years ago, when money was so much cheaper. Connecting to the grid quickly means two things, building distributed energy and having a plan for demand flexibility. GridBeyond helps with both. GridBeyond's DERMS and VPP platform unlocks the potential of distributed assets and dispatches flexibility into the right market at the right time. And this is more than software. 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I think back to our mutual friend, Matt Bullard, had this like one of his, a great chart in his annual massive deck that went back to, I don't know, the 1950s or something like that. And it showed the share of GDP per capita, so basically the share of any given average person's wallet that is spent on electricity each year over time versus the share that is spent on, I think, oil or gasoline, some, you know, version of that. And the electricity share was like remarkably stable. It's like the same amount of our collective income is spent on electricity for the past 70 years, whereas it's actually pretty volatile when it comes to oil and gas, oil and gasoline, I should say. And we'll see if that changes. But here's the thing from, okay, so this gets to the crux of your analysis, right? At the local level, data centers seem to, on balance, probably decrease electricity prices currently. And at the macro level, they are definitely a factor contributing to an increase in electricity prices. So the logical thing then would be, we should all want as many data centers in our utility territory as possible, right? Like that's actually the correct, in this specific context, that's the right way to think about it, I think. Yeah, if we're in a data center version of the prisoner's dilemma of sorts, absolutely. Like get it all to my territory to lower my electricity bill, for sure. Yeah, and make sure that, you know, my utility negotiates the tariff well and they bring their own capacity or pay for their own capacity, either way, you know. Yeah, I mean, that's why I, I mean, this is veering off course a little bit, but I do wonder how much of the public, public perception and public acceptance problem is really related to energy use and electricity prices. Like people say those are the things that they care most about to a Gallup pollster. But as you noted, like there seems to be something a lot more deep-seated here for a lot of people around trust of the various parties involved, probably around their feelings toward AI more broadly. And so I don't know for sure if there's anything, like, if you really focused on electricity rates and data center operators and utilities came to these incredibly generous agreements for the other rate payers in a territory, like whether that would really move the needle or not. That's a question mark, a hypothesis that we need to test. There's an extreme version, which I don't know if you've seen this. So Vivek Ramaswamy, former presidential candidate, is running for, I think, governor of Ohio now. And, His platform is that Data centers that come into, I guess, a utility territory in Ohio should result in free electricity for the local residents. Now, set aside that that's not how electricity tariffs work. You don't give a particular municipality a different rate from a different municipality in the same territory. But conceptually, he's like, they should just make electricity free for those people. I haven't actually run the math on how much extra. But the extreme version of this is something like that, right? Like, how much willingness to pay do these hyperscale data center operators have? And how much can they? There is a point where maybe it's not free, but if they reduce everybody's bill by 20%, that's going to be noticeable. Depending on the size of the utility territory, that could be completely impossible or not, right? Yeah, I wrote a post maybe a year and a half, two years ago. It was called, For AI, Energy is Everything. And it was all about how, like, if you're trying to build a data center, an AI data center, computing of whatever kind, you obviously need power. Like, you need power capacity. You need to be hooked up to the grid or hooked up to something that can, like, you need the capacity to get started. But then once you start running, energy is a pretty small share of the total cost of goods sold for that data center, right? It's something like 5% to 10%. Of the total cost. And so, yeah, you could, you know, if. What if you double it? What if you triple it? How much impact could that have on the rates for the rest of the community, the rate payers in the system? I think that would start to become pretty meaningful. So we'll see. We'll see if that's where this has to go in order to secure community buy-in. And just following up on another. Another point you made that's kind of related on the share of global GDP, or sorry, share of national GDP in the U.S., the share of our wallets, effectively, of all of our labor that is going to energy and electricity specifically. Like, completely, that chart from Nat's deck is very telling. Like, it has been pretty consistent and actually remarkably low in the scheme of things for decades and decades. Electricity in particular. Like, I was looking at some data going. I was looking back just to 2010. You know, for the average consumer, it's been between 1% and 1.5% of average personal income over that period and declining a little bit over that period since 2010 so far. And, like, that seems like a very small price to pay for most of us. But I will say, like, where this really matters is for lower-income consumers, fixed-income consumers, for whom electricity could easily be 5%, 10%, maybe even more, of their wallet. And so, you know, for those people, if you were able to reduce the cost of power by, you know, via getting a new data center in your territory by, I don't know, 30% or something, you're saving up a meaningful amount of their annual budget for them to spend on other good stuff that they like. So, I think it could matter. I would love to see one. Maybe the right. Maybe this should be. Maybe this should be a muni or something who does this or very small IOUs is the only way this would actually work. But I'd love, like, some very small utility to issue basically an open call and say, we've got a site in our territory. We'll put a gigawatt-scale data center here. So, now you're in, like, pretty rarefied air. We'll put a gigawatt-scale data center here and we'll interconnect it fast. What you have to commit to is a rate that we've calculated would be sufficient to lower all customer bills in our territory by 25%. I don't know what the number is. And then just, like, see if anybody goes for it. Yeah, I would love to see this experiment as well. Let's see if anyone listens to this and decides to give it a shot. Okay. So, then the last question, obviously, is, like, what to do about this in a general sense. I mean, the. And again, this is more what to do about the global problem of all this. Because we're not headed into a world anytime soon, in my opinion, where these supply chains suddenly become really bad. And really loose. Like, they're tight. And they're going to stay tight for a little while. I don't know what the ceiling is going to be on, like, gas turbine prices, right? But, you know, every data point that I hear currently is, like, a new high number that I had never heard before, right? Some CCGT getting itself to, like, $4,000 a kilowatt or whatever. Yeah, I was going to say, I think I just saw one come across my desk at, like, $3,600. So, that would be. I think that's one of the higher price points I've seen. But, yes. Yeah. It seems to keep going up. So, what can we do about that, if anything? I mean, you know, the problem, as I said, is everything. Everything costs more. And we need to build more of everything. So, in a way, like, it's a cop-out answer. But the answer is do everything. I mean, there's such a panoply of potential solutions, things that can be done in the supply chain and by electric utilities and by data centers that, like, have. Theoretical benefits for reducing, you know, the total cost of deploying all this stuff that it's hard to figure out where to start. It's funny. At Energy Impact Partners, where we both work, we thought it would be fun to put together a deck full of solutions on, you know, things that can improve affordability from our portfolio of companies that we've invested in. And we quickly, you know, we thought at first that we'd get to, like. Maybe 10, 15, 20 companies, and that'd be it. But the more we started putting this together, we realized that, like, well, we're investing in things in general that have a claim to, for the most part, be cheaper, faster, better. And so, like, everything can make a difference. But, you know, there's a few areas that I, in particular, think this will cause more focus on. You know, this will raise the profile of a few opportunities relative to a historical trend. One of which I'm crossing my fingers, I'm sort of forever a believer, is energy efficiency. And that can come sort of just natively from consumers who start to see higher electricity rates and decide now is the time to invest in that next more efficient piece of equipment or whatever it is, you know, insulation for their home, just because the economics pencil in a way they didn't before. Or it could come more from utilities who, for a long time now, have. Looked at these energy efficiency programs as sort of like a regulatory requirement, something we, you know, we put in the back room, we've got to do it. We think it probably makes a difference over time, but it's not something we can really plan on, these efficiency dollars going to work. You know, maybe this causes utilities to rethink energy efficiency, sort of bulk kill what our savings in a way that has to be more of a planning resource. So that's one place I'm hopeful that. You know, higher prices will move the needle for. Yeah, and I think a derivative of that also would be load flexibility, which is a different means to the same end, right? Conceptually, load flexibility is basically just a way to get our collective demand for electricity to better match the resources that we have on the grid, such that it's a lower cost to serve overall. And so you could do it by lowering the total number of kilowatt hours, you could do it partially by shifting when the kilowatt hours are consumed, and that's what. That's what load flexibility is all about. Load flexibility is less unloved, I guess, than energy efficiency, so to speak. So maybe it, like, you know, it doesn't need the profile boost quite as much, but I think it will certainly be a beneficiary here. Yeah, load flex, distributed batteries, that sort of thing, at least has been gotten a lot of attention and has been sexy for people like you and me and a lot of the circles that we run. We run in who are DER nerds and attend the Dervos conference every year. But I think, you know, again, it's getting more attention from utilities, and again, not just as sort of like, oh, we got to do some demand response because the regulator tells us every year we have to spend X dollars on demand response, but to something that they should be planning on and planning for. And in some cases, like procuring much more directly, you know, our portfolio company. At EIP, Spark Fund has been out there promoting this model of, you know, distributed capacity resources, distributed capacity procurement by utilities, where a utility will go out and say, I want 300 megawatts of load flex and batteries in these specific areas, and I'm willing to go pay for it. And I'll just like, we'll pay for the batteries on customer properties in these places, so long as the customer agrees to sign up. So, and, you know, I think they're getting some traction. So, yeah, the time is very different for distributed energy broadly. Right. And then, of course, as you said, there are hundreds and hundreds of different things we can do. Like, every part of the value chain has inflationary cost pressure, and thus, there are ways to make every part of the value chain cheaper. Conductors, generation, transmission, distribution, labor, hardware, software, all sorts of stuff. Yeah. You know, it's like the answer to high prices is, high prices. And to some extent, I think that formula is working out in the market. Transformers are more expensive. So we're seeing more companies that are trying to figure out ways of assembling a supply chain for transformers, like one of our companies, Air Energy, or alternatives like solid-state transformers like Heron Power is making. So not to belittle those efforts. I'm glad those companies are out there taking really creative approaches to building the equipment we need. But I worry less about those steps in the supply chain because there are companies out there responding to this market signal, which is price. Labor is one. You and I have talked about this a lot. That moves slower. It's harder to find and train people who can do the kind of work we need done in field settings. It takes at least a few years to train someone. It probably takes, I don't exactly know, to become a master electrician, but well more than a few years. And first, you have to find people that are capable and want to do the work. I mean, that's one that I worry more about in a 10-year time frame. I think there's lots of reasons to worry about that one. It is a more intractable problem. That said, I think it is a pretty small contributor to the overall cost of electricity. What is the portion of the cost of electricity that is electricians? It's probably not that big, right? So it's a big issue, but in this context, it's probably not the biggest one. It may be like energy for data centers. It's everything and it's nothing. It's not a huge contributor, but if you can't find the electrician to plug your thing in, or if you can't find a line worker or enough line workers to build the. The new substation, then you got nothing. So I think that's probably how that dynamic will play out. All right. Well, it'd be interesting to have this conversation again in like a year or two when there's more data from this third wave. Right now, you see announcements, but I think there's going to be like, fast forward 12 months, there's going to be a bunch of new studies that'll come out with like good data on the direct and the direct impact for sure in a local sense. I haven't seen anybody actually try to do like a comprehensive look at the macroeconomic question, but maybe somebody will listen to this and do that because I think it would be interesting as well. Either way, we will see where it goes and I appreciate you coming on again. Yeah. Thanks for having me on show. Andy Lubershain is a partner and the head of research at EIP with me. This show is a production of Latitude Media. You can head over to latitudemedia.com for links to today's topics. This episode is produced by Max Savage-Levinson, mixing and theme song by Sean Marquand. Anne Bailey edits the video version of the show. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. All of our episodes are on YouTube. Subscribe to Latitude Media for episodes of this show and Open Circuit. You can find the audio version of this show anywhere you get your audio podcasts. I'm Shail Khan, and this is Catalyst.