Trans Family Child Separation

[Music] Hey fam, it's me Amara Jones. Welcome to the Translash Podcast, a show where we tell trans stories to save trans lives. Well, I wanted to start out this week with my own trans joy and that is to thank so many of you for reaching out in the wake of the announcement from Time Magazine that I am named by them as one of the 100 most influential people in 2023 in their icon section appropriately for everybody trans. Hundreds of you have reached out, many of you I don't know and I have responded to as many messages as I can. I just want to let you know my deep appreciation for the time that you took to send your congratulations and please know that it's touched me and this is a sign hopefully that ultimately we're going to win. But today we're going to talk about an incredibly difficult topic. One that concerns everyone here at Translash and that is the emerging area of anti-trans policy which focuses on separating trans children from parents who love and support their gender identity. Nothing is a clear sign of creeping authoritarianism in the United States when these gut-wrenching policies and the fact that they are occurring in states with leaders who have presidential aspirations underscores the problem and it's why we're devoting today's show to unpacking this critical issue. To better understand this parental rights crisis and speaking with two advocates working on the ground in two states. First up is former Texas Child Protective Service Investigator Morgan Hardy Davis to talk about that state's attack on trans-affirming families through child separation under a 2022 executive order by governor Greg Abbott. It really made me rethink what I was doing. It's like am I morally culpable? I'm not unbiased. I know this is wrong. I know it's wrong. And that's when my unit and I decided to come forward. Next I'm joined by the Southern Legal Council's Director of Transgender Rights Initiative Simone Chris to discuss an attack on gender affirming care pending in the Florida State Legislature. That bill could lead to a change in custody from gender affirming parents to those who are not. I have never seen my clients in the community that I work with in a place like where they are now. The devastation is palpable. The fear is palpable. It is keeping me up at night that these parents are just terrified. But before we get to these difficult conversations, let's start out like always with some trans joy. The trans community in Texas has faced an onslaught of political attacks over the last few years. And while the headlines coming out of the state might be grim, there are so many incredible advocates working every day to make the state a safer place. Landon Richie is a policy associate for the transgender education network of Texas or Tent and a junior at the University of Houston. Since coming out in 2014, he's been advocating in his local school district and at the Texas Legislature for the rights of trans Texans just like him. Here's Landon Richie. This session, for example, although we've had a record number of anti LGBTQ+ legislation, we also have close to 160 bills that would increase protections for students in schools protecting bodily autonomy. We have a lot of energy around making this state more protective of the people that live here. Now, I go back to looking at the state as this textile work and as trans people we are as much an important thread in that bigger picture as is everybody else. And it's as much my home I'm as much a Texan as my neighbor is from wherever they come from to however long they've been here to however they identify and show up in the world. We're just as Texan as anybody else. Landon Richie, you and everyone at Tent are trans joy. I'm now joined by former Texas Child Protective Services Investigator Morgan Hardy Davis. Morgan worked with CPS and Texas for almost a decade including as a Judicial Aid in CPS Court and later as an investigator. He began transitioning only about 10 months before Texas Governor Greg Abbott sent a letter instructing CPS to investigate children receiving gender affirming care in February of 2022. After signing on Amicus Brief in support of a family suing the state Morgan resigned from the department in protest. Morgan now works with the Travis County District Attorney as a legal secretary in the Special Victims Unit. He sends most of his free time advocating for trans rights at the Texas Capitol with equality Texas. Overturn the order and tent who we heard from earlier during our Trans-Story segment. Morgan, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much. Firstly, I just wanted to get a sense of what made you want to become a CPS agent in the first place because of course there's lots of controversy about these roles but I'm wondering what motivated you to say this is what I want to do with my life? I was able to work in top protective services court for the CPS judge, Darleen Bern, and I saw a front line what the investigators would do with CPS saving lives of children and children like myself. When my boss was elected to hire office and I wanted to feel like I was doing something and they were kind of like to hire me as an investigator. And I think like a lot of us, I just wanted to be there for the kids in a way that maybe I didn't have when I was growing up. When you said kids like me, what about your past connected you to the kids that you saw in court? My family was a bit religious and so there was a cookie cutter of what you could be and what you could do and I knew from about eight that I was just a little, you know, it was a bit different and you had male or you had female and that was it. And so it was a bit difficult growing up and I think especially for them coming from a religious background it's just that we didn't have labels, we didn't have terms, we didn't have understanding and so was hoping that I could be that for them or for any kids that didn't feel like they had a voice. So because you had a difficult childhood you related to the cases that you saw of other children who had difficult childhoods and wanted to help and so you decided to become a CPS agent. Did you enjoy the job? I did very much. You know the camaraderie of the unit and really feeling like you were boots on the ground helping. This was also during the pandemic and so ironically we were out in about in the community at a time when no one was and so it really did feel like that something positive was being done. At the time though the resignations were just trying to happen. Our caseloads were exploding as we were coming out of pandemic. So it was the pandemic and that must have been hard in and of itself because there were lots of cases of child abuse that were reported as an increase due to the pandemic. Is that what you experienced as well? It was. I think as we were coming out of the pandemic and especially when the kids were going back to school, normally the greatest assets are the teachers and the counselors who see the kids every day and can see differences in patterns of behavior. There are injuries that need to be reported. So definitely there was a steep uptake when the pandemic started to come out of it. And it's interesting that at the same time that we saw this increase in child abuse as kids were going back to school as the pandemic was beginning to wane, not gone away but wane due to vaccines. But this is the same time that Texas Governor Abbott decided to ramp up attacks on trans people ultimately culminating in February 2022 with his executive order mandating child separation of trans kids from parents who affirmed them if that was reported to the state. And I'm wondering when that order came down, what was the reaction amongst your colleagues? Oh everyone thought it was a political stunt. You know it was two weeks before the election for Governor. Everybody said this is a political stunt and that genuinely were shocked when we had a case. But we had a case within 24 hours but shocked that this was happening and it was a political stunt. and thought, we'll go in, we'll come out, it will close it, that this is just, this is a political football. When I received a phone call from a supervisor, I was told, you get one shot, but you can recuse yourself if you want to. I had only started transitioning about 10 months prior, so they said, well, if you can't do it, or it's too sensitive, then you can recuse yourself. And I thought, no, if somebody's gonna do it, I wanted it to be me. And so, went into the home, it was impeccable. We normally staff cases just on site, walked out to this home as impeccable. I had never seen anything like this. I mean, the parents were just loving and kind, and the child was thriving. And so, went out to the front yard, staffed the case, and they said it wouldn't close. I'd never had that happen. Also, at the time, the parents were very smart. They were able to get attorneys very quickly through Lambda Legal, who were just superheroes. And so, my supervisor said, well, we're gonna staff it higher. And, Gally, the only time that's ever happened is on cases that involve a child death or, you know, our high profile. And so, it wouldn't close. Realize very quickly, this was something else, and went back in the house, and I'll never forget the attorney. I think they knew, because they kept saying, I shouldn't be there, and that, this was something else. - So, you decided to take this case, because you had begun to transition, and said, oh, you know, it should be me. So, I'm gonna go do it. You went there, under normal circumstances, this is the type of home you're describing that you would never have been in. It wouldn't even come across your desk, right? And so, then you go there, and you're like, wait, hang on, everything is perfect here. Why am I here? You go out, you call it back in and say, all right, this is a nothing burger, let's close the case, and then they said, no, we can't close it. What did you feel in that moment? - I'm gonna say I felt sunk, honestly. Even before when I went in, because the person I investigated to make matters worse, worked for the department, and so, had literally sent a one sentence email, and said, I may need to resign, I just saw the governor's letter, my child is receiving gender affirming care, and at that point, her supervisor became a mandated reporter. So, it just is sickening. At that point, we didn't even have a policy that encompassed that this was child abuse. And so, if it was a political football or political stunt, why was it being taken this seriously? And that's when I started to get scared, that not I got real scared. - So, you were sunk, you were confused, you were scared. I mean, I'm really shocked by what you just said, is that like, when you went to investigate normally, you have criteria to judge whether or not this is child abuse. But because this kind of just was shot from the hip of the governor, as it were, you didn't even have guidelines to be able to figure out what the criteria were to judge as a child abuse. So, you're kind of walking around, confused as to what you're supposed to be doing, and then you see that there's no child abuse, and then you can't close, so it's so strange. It's like, it just is so in confusion, it seems. - Oh gosh, it just kept getting more and more bizarre. There's not a single major medical association that doesn't say that gender-affirming care is medically necessary. Gosh, I as somebody told me, they said, if a parent had the wherewithal to do this, and they didn't, said there would be the child abuse. Nobody would listen to that part. In the meetings, and please know, this can be backed up through the, one of the supervisors was incredible and came forward to back everything up. When she came forward and said, they even at one point had a meeting where they were going to state the gender dysphoria, was not a medical diagnosis, and we're all screenshotting out of the DSM-5, saying, wait, what are you doing? What are you doing? And no one could give me a reason to keep it open, and there was no evidence to that point. All they wanted was a release of information that this child was receiving gender-affirming care, and no one could even really tell me what it was. And so, as you mentioned before, you've got these enormous case loads, and the good part about being being trans is that I thought, well, if there is child abuse, I'll be able to see it, and it was the complete and utter opposite. - Yeah, and ironically, it sounds like with where we started in the story, like it's the type of home that you would have wanted to grow up in. - Right. Interesting, right? - Oh gosh, I mean, when you come into a house, you can really tell pretty quick, somebody's putting on a show, or you know what I mean? Like when they're, you know, you walk it, and it looks like out of a 50s television show, or if it, you know, it's, I don't even know that. It was, they were loving. I know it's on silly, they were sitting on the couch together, and then, I, yeah. - Yeah. - So this case stays open. This family, as you said, ended up getting a lawyer from Lambda Legal in order to represent them. So what happened to this case? - Well, my understanding that there is a case that the parents sued, and that they are pursuing further litigation, you know, because one of the pieces that just seems to be the linchpin here is the courts. I mean, I just applaud that family, because to have the guts to do this, so brave, because when the case was about two weeks into it, a week into it, they're just praying that one of the family sued, because even by accident, we were finding out that there were other cases, that, you know, it was never said publicly, who had them, like, literally found out by accident, because I was accidentally cc'd on the email, that they had to be legally made to stop this. - So, Governor Abbott makes this announcement. This first case comes in, you can't close it. Then other cases are starting to flow in, just kind of, like, willy-nilly, and everyone is responding, you know, in a way where they're trying to figure out what's going on. It sounds like y'all are having meetings, trying to find out what this means, and they're telling you that the sky is yellow when it's blue, (laughing) or they're saying, "Gender-forming care is child abuse and not medically necessary." And then you're screenshotting the exact opposite from a number of medical organizations saying the exact opposite, and you guys are, you know, going back and forth. - Yes. - The other thing that you mentioned is that even in the midst of this chaos, it turns out that the person whose home you went into was actually a colleague, that when the governor made their announcement, that it seems as if someone else in the organization sort of flagged their home as violation of the new standard for a gender-forming care as child abuse and reported them. And I was wondering for you how it felt to be investigating a colleague, like, what was that like? - This is a stellar employee. This isn't just, I mean, Kelly, all of them are, but this person is a rock star, an impeccable career, and you know, one of the pieces that we do is an investigator, the first thing you do when you get a report, is you call the reporter, and I knew that it was the supervisor, and because the supervisor had just sent back any mail saying, "Don't quit, do not resign, let me, but hold on, just hold on." But unfortunately, when the supervisor went to their boss, the boss said, "Well, now they're a mandated reporter." Oh, and by the way, this wasn't even an order. This was a directive, this was a workaround, not to back up, but this was a workaround. And so, the day that the state legislator had already voted this down, and so this was Governor Abbott's workaround, and it became that all of a sudden, her supervisor was a mandated reporter, who was his heartbreaking. A lot of times you can remain neutral, you know, kind of not neutral, but gosh, you want to be unbiased at all times, and not put anything personal into it, so you can make the right decisions, or help make the right decision. Also knowing full well that that child was safe. And you know, that's what also was crazy, it's like, "So, your time, your child that is receiving "gender affirming care, which probably means "they're getting seen every three months by a doctor, "they're just getting proper medical care, "better than the majority of our cases, "it was gutting because we didn't even have a policy "that covered it, and so, "and nothing was offered to me in writing, "and so I had a half-page letter from a governor, "but what was even scarier is that after he was re-elected, "they kept going. "They didn't stop, and even still, "this person had dedicated their whole life "could their career for children, "and it really made me rethink what I was doing. "It's like, am I morally culpable? "I'm not unbiased. "I know this is wrong, I know it's wrong, "and that's when my unit and I decided to come forward." - So ultimately, this colleague ends up suing, taking a leave of absence, writing a note to your entire unit, sort of saying, "Please be kind to trans families that you investigate, "kind of as they go out on their leave of absence, "and you write an amicus brief, "a brief supporting them in their court case, "but your entire unit ultimately resigns over this. "So can you take us into the conversations that you all had "and making decisions about, should we stay or should we go?" - It became really clear when this wasn't stopping, and as well, it kept getting worse. We kept thinking they had a case and we're waiting to make a policy to make it child abuse. So it was like they were holding on. And so when the unit and I would meet and all of us were on the same page of this is wrong, we know it's wrong, we are not able to stop it. And the case loads were exploding. At that point, the Lambda Legal had reached out and asked if anyone would sign the amicus brief. And for myself and my unit, it's kind of our way of just saying, hey, this is wrong, but unfortunately for a lot of us signing for myself included, signing the M because it really was almost like signing a resignation letter. After that, it was just hanging on to keep the case until I was hoping for resolution. We were like, okay, they're going to stop. In the minute, they're going to stop. We're actually proving that gender affirming care is medically necessary. We have the proof. And it's sort of one by one, everybody started to leave. You were the last person to resign. Why was that? I kept thinking if I hang on to the case, no one else gets it. One of the policies they have is that if you transfer a case, it has to be re-investigated. It's pretty much like it starts over. And so I didn't want anybody else to go into the home. You know, we traumatized this family enough. So you don't want to leave. Why did you ultimately decide to leave, though? At that point, the atmosphere had become toxic. The only thing we could do, they said the only weapon we had was to go public is to say what was happening. Because really, and truly, nobody was listening. I don't think people took it seriously. You'd see articles in our local pay postcard, the statesmen. But nobody was taking it seriously. And realizing how traumatizing that is, the only way you can kind of rationalize it in your head is that you're doing good. I know there's abuse. I'm coming into help. And so one of the pieces, the judge kept following injunctions. Thank God. And so the final injunction was that if the family was safe, that the lawsuit would continue. My limited legal understanding is the lawsuit we continued that the family would save. You'd ultimately signed up for this job to protect kids, to keep the worst from happening to kids, because you had experienced similar things as a child. What did it feel like for you to know that the reason why you had to leave was because you had been turned not into a protector of children, as the name says in the organization. But potentially, an abuser of children by being forced to separate them from loving parents and homes. Complete this belief. It's the very worst. They knew what they were doing and they didn't care. You know, like we were talking about, you don't do it for the money. This family, I mean, I joke, I walked around the house and I couldn't believe it. You know, they were. And the little girl, she showed me her room. And she was just a little girl. In the time that we were talking about, from the time this was a political football, to now thousands of CPS agents have resigned for a number of reasons, not only because of the increased caseload, but accelerating in the wake of this announcement because people didn't want to feel like you did. What do you think is the ultimate damage that's being done by what Greg Abbott has done by gutting the ability of the agency to function? 50% of our personnel were gone, which means the caseloads were even exploding higher. And people were leaving that had been in the department for 15 years, 20 years. And that knowledge, institutional knowledge that was lost is devastating. It does take decades to really navigate how to do this and do it well, the supervisors, the program directors. And it just guts you when a program director walks out and is at that point, you know, the unit and I've been very vocal. And I asked her why she was supporting us. She had come forward publicly and was supportive of closing these cases and asked her why, because it also meant her career, who she eventually resigned. But she said, because she just had a little one. That's that somebody she had to be able to look him in the face. And I just, that people are good people being put in a position like that. I mean, there've been multiple resignations in the wake of this of senior people as you're saying. Yes. You know, the director of special investigations, the division directors, like very high level people saying that this is wrong and we have to be out of here. This is, this is not what we're supposed to be doing. And you know, Governor Abbott is replacing them with people who essentially will do his bidding, which is say, may not be the people who have the most experience or the biggest moral compass, which is what you want when you're trying to figure out what to do with children who are in danger. Oh, God, yeah. One of the things that you've said though, for you, that this is done is that it's both turned you into an activist in part and it's made you feel a part of and solidified the trans community in Texas. And I think that this is really important for us to understand because this has been a tough story and a tough conversation, but it's real and it's happening and that's why we're having it. But the upside is that in the midst of it, you have found power and community, which I also think is important for people to understand in this moment. Can you talk a little bit about the personal power and the sense of community that you have found through this terrible ordeal that you've gone through your colleagues and these kids and families? Yes, gosh. I don't know if you saw recently. It was incredibly exciting that people were coming out and they're kind of a call to action of saying, we need your voices. We need them now. Because, God, you never want to put anybody in danger ever, ever, ever. But a lot of the moms and the kids couldn't come forward. But many of them did. Everybody was kind of separated and especially during the pandemic kind of separated and this gave them an opportunity to safely come out and scream or cheer or just say we're here. And so it really is ironic that they've built us a community of people who are saying no more, no more. No. A quality Texas tent over time in order. It's amazing because it's bipartisan. The churches are coming out in droves, which was the methodist who this has become a divisive issue or showing up. The president tears are showing up. People are saying no more. Also, it really shows people this is really happening and it's giving people who've never had a voice, a voice. Yeah, I mean, but it's honestly the community that you all have built in Texas. I don't think that Greg Abbott had much to do with that. Yeah, I guess the guy she gave us the reason to come together. But what Governor Abbott did was he gave us an opportunity to show our kids how valued they are. I mean, they're so beautiful. They have the guts that I didn't have to. I was 52. It was interesting when we talked about getting out there and said 87% had never had a medical body who was trans. I'll say to everybody saying, just please, just shake my hand because now you've met someone who's trying to, it's not scary. And but, guy, I think that's why you guys are important because you're getting the message out to people outside of Texas who will listen and say, this is wrong. This is wrong and we can stop it. Morgan, thank you so much for coming on and talking about an extremely painful and traumatizing time in your life and in the life of your colleagues, families, children and the state that you know. I think we're all going to leave with the notion that in this, that each of us is actually the hope by how we respond to these really dark times. Yes. And I know that all of our listeners will appreciate the way that you've continued to show up in an almost unimaginable circumstance for anyone. Thank you so much. Thank you for telling us stories. That was former Texas CPS investigator Morgan Hardy Davis. I'm so appreciative to be talking with Civil Rights Attorney and Director of the Transgender Rights Initiative from Southern Legal Council, Simone Chris. Simone has been advocating for trans rights in Florida since graduating with honors from the University of Florida at Levin College of Law in 2016. She went on to develop SLC's Transgender Rights Initiative where she provides assistance on name changes and IDs and advocates for protection from discriminatory laws. She's currently leading four federal lawsuits against the state of Florida. She's included a case against a Florida Board of Medicine rule banning doctors from prescribing gender or framing care to minors. Beyond the courtroom, Simone has conducted trans rights training across the country. She's also partnered with the UF Health Youth Gender Program to address legal needs for trans youth and families. In recognition of all this advocacy, she was selected by the National LGBTQ+ bar as one of the 40 best LGBTQ lawyers under 40 in 2022. Simone also received the Voice For Equality Award from Equality Florida in 2021. Simone, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. The topic that we're going to talk about today is not an easy one. It is not an easy one for the people whom you are representing. It is not easy for our listeners and it's not easy for the people in Florida. So I just want to acknowledge that before we get into this. We're talking today about a bill which passed the Florida Senate called SB254. The working name is Treatments for Sex Reassignment. It would enact a permanent ban on gender-forming care at age 18. It would enact a felony for people who treat minors. It would make it harder for adults to get care by adding disclosure barriers, meaning that a lot of trans people in rural Florida make it much harder for them as adults to access care. And lastly, it would grant temporary emergency jurisdiction to Florida courts for parents outside of the state who come to the state who wish to not have their kid receive gender-affirming care, even though that would be as the word say temporary and we can get into that later. So I'm wondering if you can just first of all on this last point give us an example of what that would mean. What is temporary emergency jurisdiction as it would function under this law? What does that mean? So there's two bills, the Senate bill and the House bill and they're slightly different but both have the same intent here. In the provision that they amend or create falls under the custody provisions in state statute and specifically under the UCCJA, which is a uniform child custody jurisdiction enforcement act. And that was actually created to prevent things like parental kidnapping, which is what Florida is incentivizing through this bill. It was intended to make it so that parents couldn't just take their child to another state to change the custody order that was in place because that other state isn't familiar with the family and the facts and what led to that order. So Florida is trying to subvert the UCCJA by allowing a Florida court to take emergency jurisdiction over a custody order that it did not enter. So it is not the home state and it does not have original jurisdiction. So an example would be, let's say you have a family in New York or Colorado or some other state where they don't have a ban on access to gender-affirming care for minors and mom and dad are divorced, dad doesn't affirm the child and their gender identity and doesn't support that child receiving medically necessary gender affirming care. Dad could say, "Hey, let's go to Disney and take the child to Florida and while in Florida go to the courthouse and ask a court to take emergency jurisdiction, temporary emergency jurisdiction over the custody case that exists to modify it and in that case likely give that parent full custody temporarily to quote unquote protect the child from receiving gender-affirming care in their home state. Typically, the way that it worked prior to this is the Florida court would not have jurisdiction and it would go back to the home state so wherever they're from or at a minimum they would need to coordinate, but this allows Florida courts to take emergency temporary jurisdiction to modify the custody order in favor of the non-affirming parent. So it sort of creates this reverse safe haven where unaffirming parents can bring their children to Florida. And as you say, you know, because it's temporary that order would ultimately have to be reaffirmed by the home state court. So it wouldn't have to be permanent, but undoubtedly it's still disruptive and it seems to me is aggressive in terms of the way that the Florida law asserts itself here. Absolutely. I mean, this is holistically is intended to scare parents out of affirming their children to scare doctors out of providing medical care that they know is life-saving for these children and to genuinely just scare trans people who they are and living their lives and existing and for parents loving their children for who they are is in some way dangerous for them and could some way impact them negatively. And it's this culture of fear that it's creating. We want to make sure that we underscore that this is not a copy of what happened in Texas where CPS agents are allowed to take kids from homes. But this is within the same ballpark of ideas of using any affirmation by loving parents of their trans kids as a reason for the state to disrupt the previously sacrosanct relationship between parents and children. Wondering what your thoughts are about that. Absolutely. And the fact that Florida is a state that holds itself out as, you know, being most concerned with parents' rights, it is unbelievably ironic the way that this completely undermines parents' rights and it undermines the parent child relationship if it is a parent who actually supports their child and their child happens to be nonsense gender. And I appreciate you raising that this is not like Texas because a lot of people have been very afraid that DCF or CPS, you know, child welfare folks could come take their children away because they are supporting them. And that is absolutely not the case. These provisions fall under chapter 61, which is our dissolution of marriage divorce statute, not under chapter 39, which is our foster care, you know, child welfare statute. And a lot of folks have looked to where in this bill they say, subjecting a child to, they call it sex reassignment prescriptions and procedures, we call it gender-affirming care. But that subjecting children to this could be deemed serious physical harm. And I absolutely understand the concern around that. And again, their intent is to scare people. But what's important to understand is that only defines it as such for purposes of this very limited statute, it does not change the definition of serious physical harm or any other harm or child abuse or anything else under chapter 39, which is where the state can intervene and take a child from their parents, nor does it change the definition for our criminal laws or any other place where the words harm or abuse or any of those things are used. So that's I think really important for folks to understand. As a person who has dedicated their life to focusing on the laws regarding trans people, things that were once relatively routine, but still not easy, like name change IDs and that sort of thing, to now combating very aggressive legislation, some might regard it as authoritarian. I am wondering just as a lawyer who has spanned the range of state actions here, how you're personally experiencing it. Like in some way, as a lawyer, just as a lawyer, as a person who's not, even if you didn't represent anyone, just what you learned about law and law school, are you shocked? Are you appalled? Are you surprised? Like, how are you experiencing what you're seeing and having to deal with? I mean, I think the bar just keeps getting higher and higher for what myself and folks in Florida can tolerate and what was just a couple years ago, unconscionable and absolutely beyond the scope of something you could imagine actually happening, we're so far past that now. And it's incessant and it almost worries me that it has sort of not annummed people, but people have sort of gotten used to, yeah, these attacks in Florida on LGBTQ folks and particularly transgender folks. And we hear about it so often that we're, you know, I worry that some people are getting immune to it, but what we're seeing is, and again, this word, I think has been overused since 2016 and rightly so, but it is unprecedented. What the governor here is doing, people really need to take note of because while there are lots of states that are seeking to ban, you know, gender affirming care and lots of states that are attacking trans people's rights in various ways, what happened here was a subversion of the democratic process that we have not seen elsewhere. This started in April of last year when the Department of Health decided they didn't like what the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services put out supporting access to gender affirming care for minors. And so they put out their own iteration that went so far as to say social transition was dangerous for children, meaning wearing the clothing and using the name and pronouns and having the hairstyle that the child wanted, which is not a state's place to dictate at all. None of this is, but that's just extreme. And so from there previously, the legislature in Florida had chosen not to ban gender affirming care. They've tried in many, many different sessions and it never passed. So DeSantis subverted the legislative process and the democratic process by using the rulemaking process to ban all coverage for treatment of gender dysphoria under Florida's Medicaid program. And he did that using political appointees who he appointed and who were aligned with him. Then same thing used the Board of Medicine and osteopathic medicine. Again, the rulemaking process, not the legislature, not people that we elected, people who he handpicked and put on this board because of their alignment with his views. And then they pushed through this ban on doctors providing gender-referming care to children. So now we've got a ban on the coverage for some of our most vulnerable citizens who are on Medicaid and a ban on the provision of care. And so I think the way that he did that, other states are taking note and we need to be very careful about letting authoritarian, fascist things like that occur. I'm wondering if you can give us a sense of the chaos that this is causing both for families, even as you say the conversation around this is disruptive. But on top of that, families in Florida have to try to figure out what they're going to do to make sure their kids get the health care that they need. And secondly, I'm wondering what is the chaos as best as you've been able to determine it from the litigation that you're doing? That this is causing in hospitals and in state agencies and in schools. Like, what is this doing to people's lives that have to figure out how to both quote, "implemented," I guess, or not implemented as it were, of banning and in families? I feel so fortunate to represent the trans community in Florida and I have to say I have some of the strongest, most tenacious clients that I think anyone has ever had. And I have watched these families go through hell over the last few years with the transportspan, the bathrooms, the revoking of critical support guides in schools that allow kids to be affirmed, the attacks on health care. It's just non-stop and I have never seen my clients and the community that I work with in a place like where they are now. The devastation is palpable, the fear is palpable. They are terrified that this is legitimately not a safe space to raise their child. I mean, today this morning I said goodbye to one of my clients who is moving, she's moving in with her aunt and uncle in another state and I know how hard that is for her parents. I mean, I can hear it in her mom's voice, they're having a going away party for her tonight and they're celebrating but I can feel how devastating it is for the family and there's so many, so many people are making those really tough choices about leaving the state and they should not have to be making those choices. But it is wrecking havoc on families, on human beings and it just, it's so non-stop and I think that's part of the goal of this administration and of many states that are doing this to their people is just to throw as many things at them as possible because eventually they'll stop fighting and that is my biggest fear is that these kids lose hope, that these families lose hope and they do stop fighting and I will do everything in my power not to let that happen and they see that we are challenging everything the state does. Once it happens, we're litigating this on every front, it is really hard not to feel hopeless even myself, you know, many days because it just feels like non-stop and the second you get a handle on something the next thing happens and it's not just you mentioned families and others, the doctors I work with. These doctors are afraid that they're going to lose their licenses to practice medicine, that they're going to lose their livelihood to their careers and I work with many doctors who are single parents and who that is something that they just can't risk and the state is making it nearly impossible for them to practice evidence-based medicine that they are experts in. The people making these rules and these laws have never treated a trans child. They know nothing about the standards of care for the treatment of gender dysphoria yet they're creating them and they are imposing these harsh penalties upon doctors who like I said are just doing their job and keeping kids alive and providing evidence-based care in accordance with the clinical guidelines. Doctors have stopped providing care proactively even though there's no ban in place yet for current patients. Many doctors have stopped seeing their current patients out of fear and it's the same sort of climate that we saw when they don't say "Gay, trans law passed in Florida" and no one was necessarily going around saying "Hey you teacher, you can no longer be out as who you are and mention your wife or your husband at school or you can no longer teach that book in your library but teachers are afraid. They're afraid about what this means. They're afraid of getting sued. They're afraid of losing their jobs so they proactively stop being themselves and doing the things that I think make them wonderful and make the classroom so diverse and inclusive. It's really devastating and really heavy on everyone who's either directly being impacted by it or being charged with implementing this sort of just hateful nonsense. Do you have any idea as to the reason why? Why is Rhonda Santis so focused on this? From what I've been able to read this is a bill that he's very much behind and I think we all know generally that Transphobia has become not just a plank but a pillar of the Republican Party. We know that in our heads but the question is do you have any insight as to personally why Rhonda Santis is so focused on this? I do not have any unique insight into our governor as a person or what's motivating this but I think the obvious answer is unfortunately taking these positions is very popular with a certain base, with a certain demographic of people and I think we saw just how popular and just how well these horrific measures can be and can play with the base that elected Donald Trump and then elected Rhonda Santis and I think that he is very good at playing on fear. All of this, all of this comes from fear. None of it. I don't care how many bills they name child protection bill or a vulnerable child protection act or protect women's sports act. None of this is about protecting children. None of this is about protecting anyone. All of this is about maintaining this status quo and keeping away things that people don't understand and because they don't understand them, they fear them and the recent wave of what we're seeing in Florida, it is unprecedented but it is not new. We had the Johns Committee here. We have seen this state purge LGBTQ people before and that is exactly what the intent is here with this multi-pronged, multifaceted attack on children in schools, people in bathrooms, drag, access to medical care, coming at it from every angle to try to erase people that he and his base do not like and do not agree with and do not want to see. I wish I had some insight into personally what is motivating him and what is fueling this sort of hatred and bigotry that we know based on science and evidence leads to children experiencing greater depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation. I desperately wish I had an answer but unfortunately I think it's just that it is a popular position to take with the people who he thinks will get him to the White House. The Johns Act, was that the bill to basically remove gay and lesbian teachers out of the classroom when you said that yeah to purge LGBTQ teachers from colleges and K through 12 schools and all of the above. It was like the lavender scare here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Lastly, equality Florida, a local LGBTQ advocacy organization in the state has issued a travel advisory like the state department does for nations in conflict warning Americans not to travel there. They've done the same for Florida. I'm wondering from where you sit, if you believe that is justified, is that something that is logical to you or do you believe that it's an overreaction to what's happening? What do you think? That's a tough question to answer. I think every individual person and family has to decide for themselves what is safe and not safe but I think that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence demonstrating that Florida is not safe for LGBTQ people like myself and like my clients and I don't fault equality Florida or any other group for putting out information like that. What I do worry about though is again like I mentioned earlier the furthering these feelings of hopelessness that kids who are here who don't have a choice but to be here, families who are here who don't have the means to leave the state, the hopelessness that they're already feeling during the civil rights movement we saw that we need allies. We need people who aren't in the South and who aren't impacted by these horrible bills and laws that are happening to come fight and to come help and to be on the front lines because there aren't enough of us. So I don't want to deter folks that could come and be allies and to support the fight here and I also don't want to demoralize or further the sense of hopelessness that our LGBTQ folks in particular trans kids in Florida feel, but at the same time I absolutely understand and agree with the need for folks to know what they're coming into when they come to Florida and to understand that, you know, if this SB 254 and HB 1421 were to go into effect, that it could be dangerous to even travel here if there's a custody order in place that one parent could ask the court to modify. So those are very real things that I think the rest of the country needs to know about, but we have to balance that with, you know, not terrifying more than necessary, the folks that are here with us in Florida. I'm sure that the people that you represent feel anything other than hopelessness due to your representation and advocacy on their behalf and I just want to thank you for your work in an incredibly difficult place at an incredibly difficult time. Thank you so much. Thank you so much that that really means a lot. It is definitely really heavy right now and so I really appreciate those words of support. That was Transbright's Attorney Simone Chris. Thank you for joining me on the Translash Podcast. Now we said all the way through to the end of the show for something extra. If you like what you heard, please go to Apple Podcast to rate and review us. You can listen to Translash wherever you get your podcast, check us out on the web at Translash.org to sign up for our weekly newsletter, follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Translash Media, like us on Facebook and tell your friends. The Translash Podcast is produced by Translash Media. The Translash team includes Oliver Ash Klein and Arby Callaway. Sandra Adams is a contributing producer to the show and our sound engineer. Digital strategy is handled by Daniela Capestrano. The music you heard was composed by Ben Draghi and also courtesy of ZZK Records. The Translash Podcast is made possible by the support of foundations and listeners just like you. So I am looking forward to over the next week the actual time 100 event. There is a summit the day before which is like a conference or convention. I guess never been before. So I'll tell you guys what it's like. The next day is the celebration, the gala where we all get together and are able to celebrate everyone's naming this year. So I am excited about those two things. This is normally not my type of thing but I am excited about it nonetheless.