02. Training Talks - Tobias Schmid from Core and Victor Smångs

You're listening to Runners FM. You're listening to Runners FM. You're listening to Runners FM. So hey everyone and welcome to the second episode of Runners FM training talks. With me today I have Tobi Schmidt, mountain runner and core employee. How are you today Tobi? I'm doing great. Thanks Victor. I'm coming back from injury but I'm able to start running slowly again so I can't complain to be honest. Really, really nice and you're at a very nice location. We had a little talk here before we pushed play but yeah you're close to Kievan and having a good time now. Yeah, that's correct. So I just took some time off and I'm now enjoying some days in Italy with some training in the nice nature. Good pizza, good gelato every day, so yeah that's how we like it. That sounds like dream life. Correct, we'll be all the time like that, yeah I would take that but obviously we need to work. Yeah it's crazy, it's just so much good content from the Kievana-Sankt-Mortz area right now with so many good athletes after training so it's yeah it's the place to be right now for sure. Definitely, yeah. But in today's episode I guess we will just speak about heat training and the core monitor. But before that I just, can you give us just a little bit of an introduction of yourself like as an athlete and your role at the core? Sure, I can do that. So my name is Tobias Schmid and I'm more I would say recreational athlete so I don't have like the base of a sport or endurance performance person but I just came into the sport during my studies and then I was more and more interested in like endurance sports and started running a bit and then I got into like yeah just do a half more of an out of fun and then my sister signed me up for a train run as we are spending sometimes in months with the family and then I did that and I had cramps after like 15k and it was horrible to finish the 35k and then I decided to start training again and found the joy in it and so then I yeah more and more like to go to the trails and be there and yeah spend just time outside in nature and then one step came to the other that I then decided to do a master degree in human technology and sports medicine at the German Sports University in Cologne and then in the realm of that I needed to do internship and I did that at the core in Zurich and then yeah it came to that that I then started as a full-time employee there after my studies and now I'm currently the product manager of core and yeah enjoying the position there. Ah that's super cool very very cool so you're I didn't know that you're from Cologne so you know all the the good guys there that I ran with probably in March uh Jörg and uh yeah exactly yeah so I'm I'm not I'm not from Cologne I'm close to Zurich so I'm in Swiss but I just started there during my master degree and then I also joined the Milers you probably know so yeah that's good 100% that's really cool love the love the Cologne crew are you definitely gonna go down there I think and have a training camp with them for a week or so next year but uh let's start with this because I think we we got some listener questions I think we can and some of them are probably what we were supposed to talk about anyway but I think before that maybe we can go into a little bit core the core monitor the product if anything what's going on in the core world it feels like this summer has been the the trendiest whatever you're seeing right now it feels like it's heat training and it's been very very warm in Europe so can you walk us through a little bit about what's going on in the core world? Sure yeah so we we launched or released the core 2 the second version of the of the sensor this spring around March end of March April and we are quite happy how how it's going and basically it's it's a new harder version of the of the monitor which can measure your core body temperature and thermal strain non-invasively so you're as probably most listeners know you can just put it on your heart rate strap and then wear it during your trainings and for all the benefits and stuff about heat training we can probably dive a bit more into or you can go and listen to the episode if Daniel Cardinali which you did already and besides that what we have or working now is that we improved our connected ecosystem so that you can connect your sensor to your sports devices and our basically main intent to use the devices that you before or after you can use the core app but as we are athletes we want to have one device doing the training and not three or four different devices so that's why we improved the connectivity to these sports devices for example when you're doing indoor sessions you can now connect the core to SWIFT so you can directly see in SWIFT your thermal data which is a big step and then also after the training you can analyze it now with training peaks which is the biggest player out there for data analysis in training I would say but also what what's probably cool for us as a runner and I'm also using a course watch myself that we improved the data connectivity with KOROS so you can see now all the thermal metrics like core temp, skin temp and heat strain also with the heat zones on the KOROS devices that is that is really cool I use KOROS myself so so that would just be on a data field you could see so you will be able to see both the core and the skin temperature yes exactly you can select all the three like also heat strain and on the KOROS you also then we made it available that you can see in which heat zone you are doing the heat training but probably we can explain our metrics a bit further for the listeners oh yeah that would that would be great at it so let's talk about the zones and they're in core and how you measure them sure so basically the basis of all what we're doing is the core body temperature what we're measuring and then we also measure the skin temperature but for for the listener or for the users it was always super hard to get god's like I have two temperature metrics but what can I do with it and based on that we developed the heat strain index which is basically a metric from zero to ten of how hard your body is exposed to the heat strain or how hard it's working to keep it cool and as we are super used to zones we also then developed some heat zones so this heat strain metric which is the combination of your core and skin temperature is then divided into four heat zones and this is basically then tied to the physiological rules of thermal regulation where you have four zones and we can start probably on the top like heat zone four is like there you shouldn't spend time in there since the heat is so high on your body you have a huge performance loss when you're doing it then you can just be exposed to heat related illness what we don't want and then if we go down four is never so zone four is never like if you end up in zone four you have done their decision a little bit too hard I guess correct yeah correct yeah and so so what what you're saying when you're doing heat training we want to spend time in heat zone three that's basically where you have a high heat strain on your body so there is performance loss to be expected so you can't run at the same pace or ride at the same power with the same heart rate or feeling and but the thing is with our body we need those different kind of stimuli to adapt right so that's why we need to spend time in heat zone three that these heat adaptations are occurring but in racing and stuff we don't want to be there since we want to have peak performance so we don't want to be in heat zone three that's how we divided these heat zones that's very good and I think it's so interesting myself I've been doing a lot of heat training this year and I've just been very curious to just try the like the heat strain around a little bit I've been mostly using it in in the gym so in that environment I could easily see how much layers I had to have to to get up to the zone three and everything but I also I was also curious a little bit I went to Mallorca like a month ago to see how it is outside so I that was interesting because like for me I really need like either like some kind of like rain jacket or something that track like that traps the heat or like the core like what do you call it the suit yeah the sauna suit kind of to get up to that zone three in the within maybe like 20 minutes and then I would probably spend 30 to 40 minutes in zone three during my my sessions but it was very interesting when I was at Mallorca because in Mallorca you have that kind of dry air more so it's not that wasn't that the humidity was very low when I was there but it was maybe around 20 29 degrees when I was out but even though I had like three layers of like just functional underwear I didn't reach zone three in a 12 kilometer run in like in my easy run kind of pace so I thought it was interesting that like that my body was so good with dumping the the heat at that point yeah that's really interesting I think since you're doing so much heat training what I cured is that you have a increased sweat rate and then just you drench your clothes into into sweat and then with the wind from running and stuff that just helped to use the operation and as as we or as most of you know is that the operation is the most powerful mechanism to get rid of the heat or yeah besides like radiation convection and conduction so when when you have like wet clothes on your skin it's also easy to get rid of the heat that's why you normally need to use such a raincoat or this heat suit which is not really um yeah letting the airflow through so that's why then you can trap the heat really easily yeah it's very interesting because you could see unlike the the graph like the skin like the core temperature got up to the same kind of amount as at the gym but like the skin temperature at the gym when you have like a rain jacket or or something else like the core suit it just goes up as well like the skin temperature and it maybe ends up at 37 if it's like a tough session but but outside of Mallorca it was like it went up to like 32.9 and then it started to drop yeah so that's uh it's very interesting and i got a lot of these you know comments from people from hot countries saying like oh you should run here like it's uh that's like heat training every day but i feel like i haven't never been in like a very humid conditions but do you know to be like how would you think it'd be like with a heat strain if if i would do the same session but in a very humid like say like used in summer or something like that yeah i have i haven't been there myself but from what i would tell is like that with the high humidity it's harder to evaporate the sweat since the water in the air is already a bit more condensed and the air can't take that much water from you when when the wind is blowing by you so i think that the heat strain in humid conditions is higher and it would probably be easier than outside to do a proper heat heat training yeah yeah 100 so would you say if you if you talk about it like famous performances this year for example i saw the data from christian bloomfeldt when he won in texas that he was like he never reached zone 3 at like the core monitor and that is that is impressive but what would you say like would you guys have any data from for example like say if he would be in the cone hours probably a lot more humidity how much would you think that he would be in zone 3 for like an iran man there probably a lot more yeah yeah there he was more in heat zone 3 since it was more humid and for him it was just also what what he told us is that it was way harder to keep himself cool since it was or had a higher humidity than than in texas or frankfurt and although he is using those active cooling systems or like just draining water over yourself on every aid station and using these ice stuff so that's uh that's and harder when it's more humid to to keep like the heat strain low yeah it's it's so interesting but i think that it that is the fun thing with i think you made a very addictive product to when you see the like the heat adaptation can go up to 100% and you have the zones because it's it's very fun to just try it around in different kind of environments to see how how the heat strain works yeah yeah probably for that to say i don't know if the listeners know that so from from the heat strain index we're basically calculating a daily metric how effective your heat training was which is in our system called the heat training load and from then we have then this heat adaptation score which shows you from zero to 100 percent how adapted you are and there it's basically it depends on your goal but you have different physiological adaptations in in the different percentage ranges of the heat adaptation score and yeah that's uh that's just a metric we use to make it easier to understand for the user yeah that's very good and it's very fun because you feel like when i i remember the first time i reached 90 and after from 90 to 100 it feels like you get it's a lot harder to get the percentage yeah that's correct and i mean it also makes sense it's like with every training when you start training and have the same or you let's take an example you're doing your first intervals like you improve your fitness so much but then when you're at a point like you are now even though you're training harder like the change in in fitness is just smaller it's just like this anecdotal curve yeah training annotations it definitely mimics that a lot in the in the app which is uh yeah makes you work harder there in the end if you're addictive to get to that 100 percent correct yeah but it's it's very fun also i don't know like how how into like tracking the field and stuff you are but like we had a very good performance and rias angren took the european record here in stock on 1244 and he's been doing a lot of good heat training with daniella cardinal i've heard before so that is very interesting and rias is getting into the heat train as well sounds good yeah i think we definitely it's it's a it's a great new i mean it's it's not super new but like it's definitely currently a new thing to do and it's also i think it's a testament that so many are using it that it's working for so many and it's just more accessible than altitude training right i mean as a pro you can go do your altitude camps and when you're at sea level you can do heat training and stuff like that but just for regular um athletes as i am or we are it's just easier to implement into your routine and the benefits are definitely there we also see now during the tour de France if you follow that that really a lot of athletes are using the core sensor and that's that's super cool and for myself as well it's just like i i don't i don't think i have that elite running lifestyle as much as other people that i would like to be up on a mountain like all the time but uh so i for myself is just nice to be with my wife and be able to get the the good adaptations here on sea level as well yeah and it's also feels like my my coach maths and andreas also i feel like it's very much these things like right now that people are up on altitude and then they do the maintenance of the adaptations they get topping it up with heat training after you've been up on altitude yeah definitely and also like the study was published start of this year or end of last year that it's it's not so hard really to maintain the altitude benefits it's just like the study protocol they did um daniella was also involved in that one that you're just doing three times 50 minutes on a in the heat suit or overdressed and just a super low power so you're not heating up or anything you just ride super easy for three times 50 minutes a week and you can preserve all your hematological adaptations like in hemoglobin and stuff from altitude which is yeah quite fascinating 100 percent 100 percent but but can you like just before we i think we are we would go into the listeners questions but can you just like in a fast way just talk about like how the adaptations have been like how you increase the the plasma levels and then the hemoglobin just like for a little bit like for dummies version sure so basically what what happens first is that your body senses oof i have a higher heat strain i feel uncomfortable so i need to produce more sweat to ease through evaporation which is obviously not possible when you are overdressed but the body still thinks oh i need to produce more sweat to evaporate more and get rid of the heat so what happens first is that basically your plasma volume is going up so you that your sweat rate is going up and that's definitely the first metric you can track when you start with heat training just with yourself before and directly after the heat training calculate in what you consumed from fluids and then you see like over five six days that just your sweat rate is going up so that's like the first i would say short term adaptation and then of course if you do a proper block what then happens is that for the same heat strain your heart rate and core temperature decreases like after one or two weeks and then this is like i would say the standard mechanisms for a heat adaptation block but then you need to do it a bit more consistent and longer that you have like those altitude effects as we call them to have the increase in hemoglobin since the just this adaptation mechanisms in the body to build up the hemoglobin when your ratio between fluid like plasma volume and red blood cells in your blood when this is changing the body detects that and then it releases this so-called EPO which we know all yeah that is forbidden to inject it and but that that is then naturally produced by your body and then that just takes longer than to build up the hemoglobin so then after multiple weeks of doing heat training or maintaining then your heat training you you will build up this hemoglobin mass yeah so so more or less the body always want to have like the status quo between kind of plasma and the red blood cells so when the plasma levels is very high compared to the hemoglobin levels for a while then the hemoglobin levels will be bumped up to the same level correct yeah and if we talk about like say people that do more i guess like the shorter like you have heard people just do a heat training for two weeks i guess that's more for just being good in the heat than more than the adaptations correct yeah i would say there you can make quite some two clear categories like one is i want to perform good in the heat so you know that for example your marathon in stockholm or wherever will be hot so okay i want to prevent this huge performance loss which can be like 26 to as small as possible so that you in the heat perform nearly as close as in ideal conditions around 10 degrees for example in the marathon so you can do this let's say heat adaptation block so just the short term adaptations but then you won't have this hemoglobin changes but then let's say more the long-term heat training the second category will then lead to to these effects that didn't also have an increased vo2 max and and other parameters through heat training yeah exactly that's very good and i think it's very interesting what i just been writing on social media about like increased vo2 max i think that is uh yeah people get a lot of people get like oh is it true like but i guess it's pretty much makes sense if you have higher hemoglobin level you probably can produce more or you can give your muscles more oxygen yeah correct yeah that's very that was a good i think good explanation i think a lot of people make that makes sense for a lot of people so i think we can go in a little bit to the listeners questions that we have got and a lot of them was really a much like i'm new to heat training how should i do it as a rookie how should i introduce it and what steps kind of yeah i would say as a first step you need to know that heat is a new stimuli to your body so you need to take it quite carefully and as we are runner it's or i always recommend to do it indoors since it's just more controllable and especially on the bike if you do it the first time so you can easily reduce your power and set up so what what you or what we normally suggest to be the really first sessions of course i need to say you need a core sensor to to measure it but uh you you should you can really combine it that you're doing your normal training session and then as a second part or directly after your run you're doing then a short heat session of 20 30 minutes just to get used a bit to the feeling and then you can always prolong this one a bit so that like the end of your training session will have this heat stimuli and then you can really start to think about it doing a heat heat block and stuff so you can just complement or extend your training sessions or what's also a good way to do as a beginner with heat training is that you replace an easy ride or an easy run on a on an easy day and just with a short heat training and that's important to say there in heat training especially in the beginning you you don't need to fell off your bike or the treadmill or whatever it's just it will feel uncomfortable since you're not used to this dress but you can just if you replace such an easy ride you can just ride at the low power at the constant power like really so in one power it's super low you're basically on the bike for me it feels like you're just spinning your your legs but after time you're getting hot and it's getting uncomfortable and that's that's how i would suggest to begin with just that you're doing 50 minutes 45 to an hour something like that adjust low power in your overdress setting and then you get a bit used to it yeah yeah 100% and whatever i read a little bit on your like how you do heat training on the core website and i think like it's like around 20 minutes that you would say it's good enough in the beginning and so in the three yeah correct yeah so it also especially like when you just do this low intensity sessions it obviously takes longer for your body to heat up and to reach some free and so if you if you do let's say one hour you're probably in the beginning just have like the last 15 20 minutes are in some free but that's yeah just to build it up slowly yeah yeah and i would say my first heat session when my coach Matt said that you should probably do a four to five times a week that this in the beginning i was like this is going to be very very hard like the first session was so incredibly hard so i think also to if you really are committed to do heat training i think like the core this is how it works for me with training i can do a lot of hard things as long as i can see that i improve so i think that is also like a good thing with the core i have to just be able to put it next to you if you're on a test bike and you just see that you're getting these adaptations and you're getting more and more like the heat how the heat strain and moves and stuff i think that is it's just a fun way to do heat training yeah and it's also a safe way to do heat training right because you see what what you're doing of course your feeling in the beginning is like well it's it's way too hard but what's happened what is happening physiologically is a bit different so you're probably doing exactly the right thing and that's also what happens then during the first sessions which you for sure also recognize that mentally it also changed how you perceive it like the rate of perceived exertion is going down after a while oh yeah definitely definitely and it was really fun because our my own protocol a little bit has been because i kind of want to hold my running up to around 190 195 kilometers a week or during base training and i kind of don't want to i kind of want to have i don't want to run slower on my easy runs just because i'm heat training so and also like so and i don't want to add too much cycling plus those 195 kilometers running so my protocol right now and i has been like i run the amount of like kilometers that i was supposed to do on the easy runs to say it's 10 to 12 but i do it maybe with three layers of functional clothes like on a treadmill and then i probably go up to come up to zone three maybe 10 minutes in the end of that session and then i top it up the last half an hour on the bike as you said just very very just put on a lot of layers with and then i top it up just pedaling in zone one to get 40 minutes around there in the zone three yeah that makes completely sense that you're basically just slowly increase the heat stimuli and then once you reach heat zone three that you just extend it on the bike and that's obviously also a lower mechanical stimuli so that allows you to still keep your high volume in running which is not compounding on the legs or even better it so some are called it firmer recovery so that you're since the mechanical power is so low when you're just spinning there but you keep up the heat so you have the heat stimuli you have your cardiovascular adaptations but you you're basically kind of recovering your legs already for the next sessions yeah it's uh i feel like it's been a good protocol but i've had to like work the the heat training into my schedule to see that that would be the best way to do it yeah definitely it's always a bit individual how you implemented and for me for example like since i started working with core i'm i'm doing it myself and then with time to time like i wouldn't do the for the block now same as i did it like three years ago so now i you really after time you know what works for you how to integrate it into your daily routine so for now for my let's say rest day or easy day i just do a short like heat session with zone one ride on the bike and after that i normally just feel way better than before so it's also yeah a tool to kind of recover a bit for me yeah definitely definitely i think it's uh yeah we got a lot of questions about like that like how you should implement or implement it and like but i guess you just kind of feel how much of it you can do and how you should do it because like uh yeah it it it is like an added adaptation and or like added stress but uh yeah i think you just have to be smart and tart to say like how should i get these adaptations in the less taxing way that doesn't affect my my kind of the support that i'm focusing on yeah definitely and i think it's also what makes sense i would say in the beginning if you're really like did this first let's say introductory session as we discussed that you can then commit to a real heat training block so that you can really put in like one two or ideally like two to three weeks with just the focus on heat training like in off season or after an injury or whatever and then you can really build up these main adaptations in your body and then you can just maintain it over time or do a smaller block that it's just not interfering so much with your normal heat training plan and um yeah i think that would be the smartest way to do it and yeah yeah definitely definitely i think how i have done it i i i actually started exactly like that i had a little bit of a niggle so like for 10 days so that's when i started my heat block in march i think it was then i could then i was just on the test bike and just pounded every day like heat training and then when i got back to running i have like the easy days on uh monday wednesdays fridays so i so i had the first session of the day i'd normally do two easy runs i made that like a heat session and then i probably did one extra during the the weekend so i did maybe four sometimes five heat training sessions a week but then now i when i when i'm getting closing out to an a gold race this is swedish champs for me next week i've just done less and less like active heat training and i'm uh more now doing more passive after our conversations now i'm just gonna go for an easy run and then i'm gonna end up at my gym and finish it off with maybe 25 minutes in uh in the sauna yeah that that's definitely a way to go and also what what you yeah talked about with this passive is also super interesting and that's actually also a feature which came new into the core app during this year is that you can log now your passive heat training what you're doing in the sauna since the core is electronic so you shouldn't take it inside the sauna since yeah it's just dangerous at some point with batteries and stuff and it's also not measuring accurately but now you can track that part of your heat adaptation training so to say in the app but it's also a really legit way to do it because you're doing your training as you said so your core temperature is already elevated and then you're going directly as fast as possible into into a sauna or hot bath and what happens there in the first seconds your skin temperature is increasing so rapidly that just you have a good heat strain for this amount of time and it's also scientifically proven that that really works yeah that's that's great and what i what i've heard is like it's true that if you go into the sauna without having uh so like directly from a rested state with a low core temperature it's hard to get the core temperature up but if you go in with like a high core temperature directly after a session it's uh you will maintain that high core temperature because it's hard for body to to get it down in the sauna correct yeah and especially like if you go in with resting it just takes way longer to to heat your body up and then like the normal standard protocols after after your training or post exercises that you're going into there for 20 to 30 minutes it's hard but then you're done and if you just would go in into in resting phase like those normal spa days easy treatment days like where you just relax and do like those 15 minutes in 15 minutes out it's hard to really get the right adaptations when you're an athlete and used to heat training yeah i would i would want to see people sit there for for an hour that would be very impressive yeah and probably too dangerous i would say yeah yeah 100 yeah we also got some questions about you know like how how many times should you do heat training to make it like worth it like it's from what i understand like it's good to do like four to five times like in the beginning and then you can just as i do now i can just decrease it and just replace it with like passive stuff but what would you say like is how many times a week would you say it's that you should do it to make it that so it counts and you will get the adaptations that you want yeah i think the problem here is what we all know from endurance training is that you need to repeat a stimuli that our body adapts so you can't just go on one run a week and then yeah be a super good runner so that's why we're all training really often and same a bit holes through a feet so you need to repeat the stimuli and i would say if you if you can implement free free trainings a week it's already really good or you can do two and a bit harder but that then depends on your or you need to figure it out with the whole whole load to do that but if you can do like three really easy or those zone one rides or heat sessions that would be already really good of course then the adaptation takes a bit longer to happen but if you just do it consistently it's also really beneficial and you can also then just maintain it or now when it's summer and it's super hot outside what i did normally is that i'm since it's this so-called heat acclimation is what we are doing indoors and it's the heat acclimitation when it when you're going into this neutral environment when it's hot so you can basically just expose yourself to the heat during during lunch run or whatever and then you already have a bit of heat stimuli and then you can basically in summer you can reduce it to one or two sessions a week to really maintain it yeah yeah definitely that's that's how i feel as well i feel if you probably just logged like you could probably see it in the core app if i do like a heat session every second day you will see that you will gain gain more adaptations but you will lose adaptation today that you're not doing it but i guess if you have like more like if you have two days in between the sessions it will probably hard to to get it up to high numbers because you will lose almost as much as you gain all all the time yeah but if you if you have like two days in between you obviously will lose like two or three percent or something but then if you just do it consistently and you can prolong these sessions a bit so that you then spend like 30 to 45 to an hour even in heatsome free then you can still build up to a good heat adaptation score or to a full adaptation but probably it will be then hard to be to close down this like last 10 percent or so yeah yeah yeah 100 percent that's a good answer and we also got a lot of questions i guess from as i told has said before like people from hot countries we have we have questions from UAE we have another person saying here like if it's like 35 degrees outside in the summer is that hot enough for heat training i think we touched a little bit about like about like the humidity and stuff but what is your point there if you run just in a in a single at in the 35 degrees for example how much of a heat adaptation would you get from that i think that's a bit depending on the environment as you said and if you the sun radiation definitely plays a role there so it can increase your heat strain but what happens is when you're running outside in a singlet and it's hot of course you have a heat heat stimuli but it's probably not high enough to go into this heat zone free as we said which it's just a high heat strain since you're sweating and with with the winds and the running speed you have or on the bike it's just easy for your body even though it's hot outside to get rid of of the heat when you're for example running on the flats but when you're running uphill in the mountain and the air is just dense and staying there no wind the sun is basically burning on that mountain hill and it's hot then of course you have this heat stimuli you want and probably also especially tied to the location you are when you're in UAE or other hot environments is that you're training so many times in like climate controlled rooms with ACs or gyms or whatever just yeah to prevent that you're in the heat outside so that's obviously also not beneficial for your heat irritation so you need to expose yourself to that correct heat and yeah outside it also then depends a bit on the setting and on the clothing you're having yeah yeah 100 that's my that's my feeling as well and I and as I said before I really it would be so interesting to go because I was coaching a Swedish guide I was living in Indonesia for a while and it's so interesting to see that this you know kind of intensity control there like measures you can have if it's heart rate or lactate it's very very off in those conditions where with high humidity so it would be interesting to see how much of a heat strain you will get from when it's that humid if just running without the shirt and just like for a long time compared to like more normal conditions yeah that would be really interesting I think we should do a camp or so to check that out yeah exactly camp Indonesia like for sure and I think this one was actually we got it on our Strava group I think this one was very good I'm gonna just quote it so we get it correctly written does the sweat concentration change over the course of a heat training block as a result of more efficiency like lower sodium concentrations and does more does core monitor that to the hub or how is that heat score calculated thank you yeah that's a really nice question and I will probably start with first part with the sweat concentration and that's definitely the case that your sweat concentration is going to change so your body is we're used to staying home as days is so when then as I said before that you're increasing your sweat rate so then the body senses that and basically keeps back the electrolytes so your sweat is getting more dilute or more waterish so to say and you will also recognize that then on your shirt for example that like those salt crusts are just getting lower if you're running outside and it's also then just yeah the body is super clever to basically prevent electrolytes and so your sweat is in the end just more efficient to basically use the sweat as a cooling mechanism but just still keep the needed electrolytes in for like all the mechanisms in the body needed so like so when you get these like if you have a black hat and you see all this like salt on your is that a good or a bad thing I I think it depends but if you're doing heat training it should get less and yeah of course everyone is a bit different like how many electrolytes you're using and you should take up but that's also a bit the crux with those tests you can do from from different vendors where you can like measure your sweat and electrolyte concentration is that depending on the environment or if you're doing heat training that changes again so I would say the less salt crusts on the black shirt or hat the better yeah yeah I would you recommend to say if I when I do my sessions for example like on the bike or on the treadmill would you recommend me to like drink any kind of like you know electrolytes or something like that during during the sessions with in the water or would you just say that just water is good enough I would still do it like to use electrolytes or also especially carbohydrate drinks with the most have some electrolytes in or just water with electrolytes if it's an easy session but it's definitely important to give the body a bit since during heat sessions it's just a higher strain and you still lose a bit but it's not necessary that you throw in multiple salt capsules during a heat session if you if you use salt in your daily nutrition normally yeah yeah that is totally makes sense and the other part of the question that when it comes to the heat score calculated you have been touching that point a little bit before but I guess it's just some kind of mixture between the skin and the core temperature or how does it work yeah correct so basically there is an algorithmic combination of the core and skin temperature and that is this heat strain index we talked about which is then divided in these heat zones and then what is basically happening for this heat adaptation score how it's calculated is that we show or we are looking at how much time you spend in each zone and then that is basically representing the heat strain you're you had on your body and that's then based on all the studies available from heat adaptation on athletes and stuff the model was built to calculate from these daily hours in each or minutes in each heat zone to then yeah transfer that into an increase in percent of this heat adaptation score that's great it's so cool and I yeah it's so funny when I was with Daniel at his lab and we did that I took that pill you know to see that the the my core temperature through the pill and it was so crazy to see with the with the monitor the second monitor like monitor 2 now when I tried it out that it was so close to the numbers I had in the app it was not much margin of error at all for me happy to hear that yeah that that's basically our goal obviously to to yeah drive really accurate results and that's also the reference we are always using or these like pills you swallowed are used and that's yeah what we try to basically mimic but based based on that as you know these pills are super expensive so one costs around 70 to 80 dollars and obviously it's like a one-time usage and we have and it's invasive like not everyone wants to swallow an electrical pill I mean we are open to to do that as we are getting peaks but that that's not for everyone and that's why we can or we try basically to to measure that non-invasively with the core sensor but also bringing then those more insights into your data than just Corten yeah yeah yeah I'm just happy to be a part of the algorithm and I'm happy to be just as nerdy as Christian Blumefeldt because he mentioned there on the good reel that that was the nerdiest thing he ever done to just have the pill during a race I think he was yeah yeah yeah they're they're quite used to it right now I would say and I think the last question here before we run things up was I think this is a huge fan of core because Axel here asked when will the when will we get the core number three I guess do you have an answer on that Toby or do you think that core number two is it's gonna hang around for for a long time here what should I say now I can't disclose everything but of course we are tickering around in in the R&D part of the company with some new measurement techniques or how to improve the current core two design but there is no definite type or new product already in the pipeline which we can announce so I would just say stay tuned and there will some interesting things coming with thermal data but not no core three right now in the pipeline yeah very very good a trained answer but I think yeah I think it's so cool with especially the course thing I'm very much looking forward to just do some sessions and be able to look at my watch and to see the the skin and core temperature that will be an awesome future to for to to see yeah it's really cool and I also did today just an easy run and it was super humid and you just saw on on the course device that just the heat strain increased slowly throughout the run which is really cool to see in real time on your watch yeah okay I can imagine very very much looking forward to it but I think that what that is it we were really trying to make these training talks less than an hour so we have a good 50 a minute there now and I think that is perfect for people on their easy runs to just get a whole episode and don't have to a vitamin two so thanks Locto for for the good answers and we're looking forward to a lot of more good things from core in the future yeah thanks a lot I really appreciate the invitation to your pot and I wish you all the best for your 10k coming up soon I'm looking forward to see that thanks a lot thanks a lot thank you