TRAINING SETTERS with Jeff Grove (1 of 2)

[MUSIC] Welcome to Coach Your Brains Out, the show that explores learning and leadership from the top minds and volleyball and beyond. With your hosts, John Mayer and Billy Allen. [MUSIC] >> We're excited to welcome to the show the associate head coach at in Portia State, Jeff Grove. Jeff, thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, it's great, nice to meet you guys. >> So we know we're going to cover this topic of setting. You did a presentation, but I also know you have a lot of experience. Someone to draw on your coaching experience. I know you've been coaching for I think about 30 years or so at the college level. >> Yeah. >> Just curious to see how the game has evolved and changed over those years as you've seen it over the last 30 years. >> Well, I think there's a lot more parity than there used to be, especially at the collegiate level. I think junior's level is exploded. It's way bigger than it was when I started out coaching. There might have been six or seven really quality open level teams. Orange County and Newport Harbor, Newport and stuff like that. But then it's blown up and it's all across the country now. There's deep pockets of talent everywhere. >> That's shown up too. Like you said, at the junior's level, but the 90s, how many schools, East of Texas were from the university level? You figured Stanford and UCLA and schools like that, winning a lot. Now the West Coast doesn't, I don't think they've won a title in a while. >> It used to be Penn State. That was like the East Coast representative and now it's changed. I mean, there's good programs all around the country because there's so many good athletes playing the sport. >> Yeah, it's attracting the best athletes. Now you're seeing almost every NBA's dad's daughter is playing for some teams. >> Yeah. >> It's fun to see and just seems like it's freight train. It's not slowing down. So we wanted to get into, like I said, this topic of setting with you. You did a presentation at the ABCA convention and wanted to go through here for the coach remains out audience. >> Yeah. >> So to just to start out, you stated how difficult the position setting is in the presentation. And I'm with you and it's important that coaches remember that. But why would you say it's a difficult position? >> Well, I think just when you look at the demands of the task, I mean, if you compare it like a lot of people do it at quarterbacks and point guards and basketball and football and stuff. And but you think about the time and the physical demands that are put on that person. One is just a rebound sport, so the center's having to base what they do off of something else. They don't have right of actual control of the ball. So they have about 1.5 to two seconds basically to get to the ball after the ball's pass, to get to the ball, make a decision on who to set, adjust the tempo. They're not just throwing a chess pass or whatever, like in basketball. They're back setting, they're jumping, they're having to deliver a ball with tempo into a small area. I think it's just, they're having to do it multiple times in a rally potentially. I just think that for all those reasons, I think it's a really difficult position. And especially as you get to the really high levels of college and stuff like that, where blocks have studied that center and they have a tendency on who they're going to go to and all that kind of stuff that the center has to be created and be able to be a little bit of a risk taker, but not take too much risk. And so teaching your center to be a risk taker and to know how much risk to take in certain situations. I'll talk about this later, but I'm big on situational awareness in centers. I don't think every situation is the same. You can't just go out and be a robot and set the same ball over and over and over again. You have to take in a low pass. Maybe the outside hitter plays the tip or something like that. And or a late middle or something like that. And there's a lot of stuff that centers have to make decisions on a really short period of time. Yeah, that's a good example is a good start. And I was just thinking, actually, Billy and I were both college centers indoors. And just remember that even just the challenge of it only felt like you could do wrong. Is like, either you did your job and no one noticed, right? Or you messed up and everyone lets you know about it. Or you didn't set the right person off enough. And so there's lots of challenges within pressure on it. And I remember feeling it was so difficult. But Billy and I also got to hit in college. And I remember when I got to hit, I was like, I am never complaining about a set. I'm never like, I'm going to be so the person who they actually want to set. Because you have a little more empathy for how hard the position is. So any hitters out there, be kind to your centers, you know? I always tell people that I always have some kid come to gym and go, can I set today? And I go, you know what? You can set. And then there's setters, you know? And just because you can set a ball doesn't mean you're a setter. Because there's a lot more that goes into it than just being able to set the ball. So. Yeah, what are those things that go into it? Like what should coaches consider when choosing who's going to set for their team? Well, I think, you know, a lot of coaches look at more physical traits right off the bat. And how tall is this person? What's their foot speed? All this kind of stuff. And I tend to take in more of the personality traits, you know, I want to find somebody that has the right mentality and, you know, can lead a team out there and things like that. Because some of those other things can be taught, you know? I mean, somebody can, can better their foot speed. They can get become more athletic if they're, you know, doing the right footwork drills and stuff like that and getting in the weight room. You know, they can increase their vertical. They can work, they can develop their hands and all that stuff. But if you don't have the right personality, you're never going to be a great setter because you have to have some qualities that allow you to lead. And some people are born with them and some people, you know, you can pull them out, but the people that are born with them, you know, like I think Courtney Thompson is a great example of this. I mean, she wasn't the most polished setter coming out. I mean, I remember watching her when she was, when she was playing, but boy, she can really lead. And she is somebody you want to go to battle with. And, you know, they won a national championship at Washington with her. And I just think that, you know, even to this day, I mean, she's doing her speaking stuff and she's a really magnetic charismatic person and people want to follow her. And I think that's kind of what you're looking for in the setter. She's a great example. I mean, she's like the pinnacle of the, the kind of soft skills, right, of the leadership, the initiative, the studying the game, like all those things you want. Would you, making a hypothetical here, would you rather have a setter who is high on that side, like the leadership, the soft skills and maybe lower on the technical skills or have a setter who's, you know, really technically sound but lower on the leadership as other soft skills? I'd rather have somebody that, I mean, because I can develop some of the other skills. And, you know, maybe they aren't the greatest setter out there, but if their team believes in them and they have the right personality, you know, they can take their team a long way. And so I would rather have the personality skills. And, you know, I think Gabby Blossom is another example. I mean, she was a really good setter at Penn State and then she went to San Diego and, you know, they went to the Final Four that year and I think that she was a big part of that. And she's not a, you know, super tall setter and, but she could dish and she could really lead and obviously, you know, she made a big impact on their program. And then in your presentation, you cover how to run an offense. What are some of the important concepts for setters to understand about running an offense, not just, you know, setting the ball? Well, I think, you know, when you're looking at running an offense, I think it depends on the level that you're playing at, that you're coaching at. You know, maybe the lowest levels of juniors and stuff like that, it's just, you know, hey, go out and make a good set. You know, here's our best hitter. We need to set her more balls, you know, than anybody else. But then obviously as you progress and you get into the collegiate level and then the upper collegiate levels, it becomes a lot more about, you know, figuring out what the block's doing, you know, are they, are they a bunch of read team? Are they a spread front team? Is right front going to help in the gap? You know, can we overload? What do we need to do by rotation? I mean, there's a lot of information that a more advanced setter can take into a game plan and not be overwhelmed. But I think at the youngest levels, you know, it's just about making a good set first, smart set second, you know, tricky or deceptive set third is what I've always kind of taught. Yeah, it's a good kind of good three to be, to be aware, have to be mindful of can be attractive to want to be deceptive first and can go get ahead of yourself as a setter. Those are the ones that stand out sometimes. Yeah. I wanted to go into training a setter and a lot of our questions are built around, you know, more of the movement side, the on court side. But since you brought up the, you know, the Courtney Thompson example, right, the leadership skills and you said you can pull some of those out. So I want to, I guess just first start with training a setter from, from those soft skills side. What are, what are some ways you found to pull out these, you know, whatever intangibles they may have? Like, what have you done? to help them discover it, to help them become better leaders, any advice for that aspect. Yeah, I think one of the things I tell every setter that I've ever coaxes, we want you to be a serving setter and it has nothing to do with the actual skill of serving. We want you to serve your hitters, you know? And what I think that means is that there, you know, I look at hitters sometimes and I say hitters have fragile egos, you know? They go up, they take a rip, they get stuff blocked one on one, and you want a setter that's going to go to that hitter and go, "Hey, you know, way to take a rip, I'm going to get you there again, you're going to get the kill, that kind of stuff," versus, "Hey, I got you one on one, you know, what are you doing? Why didn't you kill that ball?" And that kind of mentality, you know, you got to have a setter that's looking at the pastor who's going, "Hey, just get me high in the middle of the court, and I'll do it, you know, I'll get the right set off," or whatever. And you want somebody that is kind of selfless, I think, in that way, and is willing to kind of take things on them, them, versus putting them on other people, like, you know, "You got to get me a perfect pass, so I can get you the set, or whatever, that type of stuff." So a serving setter, I think, is one of them. You know, I think somebody that pretty stays pretty emotionally consistent, you know? I'm not a big believer in the highs and lows, you know, I don't think a setter should be out there, you know, being the biggest cheerleader, and then, you know, falling apart when the game's, you know, going bad and stuff. I think they need to have a pretty even personality. You know, other things are just being able to manage the match, you know, having the volleyball IQ to manage the match, and to know, with the coaches' help, obviously, like, who's the hot hitter, you know? Where's the weak matchup and things like that? And I think a lot of that stuff comes through watching video with your setters and talking to them about the game plan, and, you know, who your primary hitter, or who your strongest hitters are by rotation, and just, you know, just developing that setter volleyball IQ. They're great examples. I love that, and it's sticky, the serving setter idea. And I think it's a great message. I know I've also seen that go too far. I don't know if you've experienced this, where setter is always saying, "My bad," or, "I'm sorry," or "My daughter's setting her 12th team, and I feel like every player is saying, "Oh, my bad." I should do that. And I can relate to it when I was setting. I just felt like, you know, constantly saying, "I'm sorry, and it can affect trust in yourself, confidence in yourself." So I guess how do you find that balance of serving, but still kind of owning, and not like deflating yourself all the time? Yeah, I think, you know, I've always told a setter, "Hey, I'm not asking you to put the ball on a pinhead out there. I'm asking you to just deliver us a good ball, good tempo for the situation, and let the hair go to the work." And, you know, when you kind of free a setter up with that mentality right there, I think you take the pressure that they feel to deliver the perfect ball to the perfect hitter at the perfect time, and all this kind of stuff off of them. And you just say, "Hey, we're just looking for you to, you know, we're going to try to get this kind of an offensive system going." And, you know, and we want you to just deliver a good ball. And once you kind of tell them that, they stop steering the ball, and they stop overthinking the game. And I think when they're overthinking, that's when you know a setter is probably overwhelmed, and, you know, it's not a good situation when they're overthinking. So. Yeah, I think well said, yeah, that's just a picturing times myself are watching setters when they feel free, and they feel, like you said, they're not overthinking. And then times where there's just this tense pressure, and it's just a rigid setter, an uncomfortable setter. And to be able to do that setter feels free, that's a huge thing for coaches to be mindful of. That's a hard thing to do. Wanted to get in soon now, the more physical setter training a setter, I know you have a lot of suggestions in the presentation. So just start, just wanted some general principles to help guide you when you decide what you want to train with the setter. Yeah, so, you know, I'm a big believer in, I think, you know, just to go a little bit backwards here is, you know, with motor learning, one of the things that you, you know, you mentioned, Carmagallan, who was in Jim and Goughlin, who were kind of mentors of mine, and along with some other people. But one of the things I learned with motor learning was that there's three phases of learning, cognitive, associative, and autonomous. And I think though that learning that right there kind of changed my coaching the way I set up drills, the way I set up training and stuff like that, because I think the difference in those is how many variables you have in the drill, you know, at a cognitive phase, you have a very few variables. You know, you're tossing them all to somebody, they're passing it back to you, you're tossing it right to them. There's no variables. As you move into the associative phase, there's maybe one or two variables, and then you get into the autonomous phase, there's, you know, it's game like, you know, you're playing some kind of a multi-ball drill or something like that. So as I'm trying to train setters, I'm kind of taking in what level they're at, and what drill, how I can create the drill to have the appropriate numbers of variable, appropriate number of variables for the level that they're at, and just trying to push them a little bit. So if I'm dealing with a really, really young setter, this never been a setter before, I'm probably going to train more off of a toss at the beginning, you know, I'm going to have them get their footwork down, things like that, get their entry down. If I'm dealing with a setter that's a little bit more advanced, you know, a college setter, I like to do things off of a pass, you know, and maybe more of a controlled pass. I mean, we call it spin, and you know, we have a coach passing, and so you can create different situations where your passing may be often and forward, you know, back and tight or things like that, and repping the setters out. And I like to be able to do that kind of stuff, because I think that, you know, just jumping from, you know, the cognitive phase to the associated or to the autonomous phase, and throwing them out there in a service versus pass or drill, they're not really getting it, getting good at any one thing. You want to work on something specific with your setters that they're weak at, and then try to put that into game like play. Is that phases, is it all about the level of the learner, or is it also like where you are in the season, because I imagine that for the very beginners, they're going to be in that cognitive phase for a long time, and the coach is probably going to keep them there, but they might have, you know, a tournament coming up that week, and if they never even sampled some of the autonomous phase, they're going to be but maybe not as prepared. Yeah, no, I think, you know, most, most setters, most of the time training any level and volleyball, or any skill you're moving from, except for maybe at the very beginning levels, you're moving back and forth between the associated autonomous phases, you know, so you're putting them in, you know, maybe an associated phase that has two variables, and then you're trying to put them in something that's a lot more game like, and you know, it's going to be a dug ball, and then you got to go play defense, and then you got to go do this, and you got to go do that. And so I think, you know, and then maybe you're backing it up, and you're setter training, and you're just going in with, you know, hey, we're just going to work on the ball that's off and forward, or something like that. And so you're kind of bouncing back and forth between those two things, and trying to get that transfer to transfer to the, you know, to the game like skills. And so I think, you know, I've always told people as fast as we can, we want to get into the associated stuff, and then try to test it out into the autonomous phase. And I just don't think there's a lot of return on investment, spending a lot of time in the cognitive phase, you know, a setter needs to see the ball off of a pass, because that's what they're going to see in a game. Now, how many variables you put off of that pass, you know, we work in high tide, we work in off the net, you know, how far we're working off the net, you know, that kind of stuff. And are we setting just left side, are we setting left side right side, are we trying to set a quick, you know, all that kind of stuff? Those are just variables or layers that you add onto it that affect that development. I think when working with setters, a lot of coaches have, you know, their favorite setting drills, which is, hey, let's wrap it out to the outside, et cetera. How are you evaluating setters in practice or taking stats in a game that inform like specifically what the setter needs to work on next practice? Yeah. So in my presentation, you know, I had three different aspects of my presentation at the convention, which was identifying your setter, you know, who you're choosing to be your setter, who you're recruiting, all that kind of stuff, and then training, and then evaluating. And I had heard a lot of setting presentations, but I had never heard of, you know, somebody kind of combining all three of those. And one of the things that we did when I was at Kansas State was we did a thing called good set percentage. And so we would actually go through the match after and put what rotation we ran, whether it was first swing or transition, the type of set we set, you know, was it a good set, bad set, if it wasn't a good set, why, what the score was, different things like that, and we charted that so that then we could go back and we could total it all together in a worksheet. And actually I got to the point where I was doing it in debt of all the in-vali station, but so I could year to date it and do all that kind of stuff. But what that did is it allowed me to watch our setters with a really critical eye and know, okay, our setters are not good on a long entry in rotation one and a ball being passed on a two point pass or something like that. So I can, I had this, you know, percentage number that we tried to get to 75% good set percentage. across the board, but I could see that maybe one, we were at like 55% or something like that, so that I could go into work on that situation the next day in practice. But I think that takes a lot of time to go back and watch all your set or sets. On average, a set or sets, about 80 to 100 balls in a three game match and sometimes up to 140 in a five game match at the collegiate level. So it takes a long time to go back and watch all those sets. And if you're a high school coach or a small college coach and you don't have a lot of staff, it can be really time consuming. But I think there's other things that you can do. You can put setters and if you have two setters, obviously you just flip them. You put the same line out there and you flip them. You can calculate hitting efficiency by setter. We did that a lot. When I was at K-State, we had two setters competing against each other and we wanted to know, these are the starting hitters that we have and who's setting them the best. And then we broke it down even farther and said, okay, this setter sets left side the best. This setter sets the quick the best. This setter sets right side the best. And then we made our choices off of that. So what I think there's different ways to evaluate your setter and I think the hardest thing is the intangibles. It's measuring the intangibles because it's really difficult to figure out until you really get to know them and you know what they do in crunch time situations of which setter do I want to have out there when it's tough, when it's 2020, when it's 22 all or whatever, who's gonna make the right decision, who's not just gonna make the safe set at that point in time, you know. - When you're going through the video and evaluating good set, what are the parameters you're looking for, how do you define good set? - Well, I mean, so what we did with this was, we gave the set a plus if it was a good set and the hitter could kill it, you know, it was a good located set, the tempo was good, the choice was good, we gave it a plus. And then if it was a really difficult situation, like maybe they're running off the court and bump setting or something like that, you know, and it was in a little bit bigger zone, but it was still something we could take a rip at, then I gave them a zero, you know, because maybe it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't bad. And then if it was a bad set, you know, I gave them a negative. And so then we went and calculated that the pluses were one, the zeros were a 0.5, and then they just didn't get any credit for the negative sets. And then that we came up with this 75% good set percentage. And so, so yeah, I mean, it was just, it's a lot subjective based on whoever's watching it, because, you know, there were times when I had the players watch and do their own good set percentage, and then I watched it, and I had probably a little bit more of a critical eye, you know, than they did. And, but it was, it was good, you know, and I like having the players do it, because I think they need to go watch and say, okay, look, you know, on five left side balls here, I wasn't good, I said it too tight. And so they can start to see some trends too. - I think, yeah, I can picture like the shape of the set, keeping it hidden rhythms, they can hit hard with range. What makes it a good choice or not? - You know, lots of things, I think, you know, where they're following the game plan, you know, was it the, we were trying to attack this weak blocker, you know, was that the, was that the right choice? You know, this hitter is really hot, she's killed four balls in a row, you know, did we give her that ball? Did we, if it was a bad choice, did we try to be too tricky, you know, did we try to jack it against the flow, and we ended up not leaving it in a good spot for the hitter. It would have been just easier just to, you know, set it left side or whatever, you know, are they trying to push quick from off the net, you know, are they, are they taking too much risk, you know, doing that, are we getting good swings, you know, so mostly it was about just trying to, you know, see, are we putting the ball in a situation where we're getting good swings? - Mm-hmm. And one more on the good set percentage, how much of the onus are you putting on the hitter? How much is it on the setter, you know, there's always a relationship there, right? A dynamic cut, yeah. - Yeah, like I said earlier that, you know, it's not, I was never asking the setter, hey, you know, you need to set it right here and it needs to be like, I mean, this white one foot area or whatever, because that's not possible, you know, I mean, you have to have realistic expectations of your setter that, you know, sometimes they're running around and they're setting weird body positions and stuff like that, and they're getting it into an area out there that, you know, the hitter has to be able to go do the work and, you know, I mean, just like volleyball IQ, an outside hitter has, outside hitter IQ, you know, they can, they have a toolbox that they have to be able to have, you know, so if the setter gives you a ball, it's a little tight, you know, don't just bail on it, you gotta manage it, you know, you gotta try to wipe the block, you gotta, you know, jowls, you gotta do something based on what the setter gives you, and the setter is gonna try to get you in a, in a small area and give you the right tempo and get you one on one and all those good things, but, you know, if they don't, then as a hitter, you need to manage it. - Nice, and then going back to the training environment, I know you mentioned when you, you know, get out of the initial phase, cognitive phase, you like to have a live passer, but wanted to ask how important having a live hitter is in your setter training, and I guess just kind of general advice for coaches through different levels, you know, how important is it to have both aspects of those, especially with, you know, someone, yeah, be on just like a beginner if you're doing your setter training. - Yeah, I think there's arguments for both, you know, I think if you're just trying to rep the setters out and you're just going location with high volume reps and stuff like that, I think you can just pull the setters in, you can have, you know, a coach stand up on a box out in left front with their arms up and catch it, you can have the setter hoops if somebody has those, but when you start to develop setter hitter timing relationships, especially with quick hitters, it's a lot easier if you have them in the gym, you know, with you, but you run to the risk of overjumping them, you know, and 'cause they're gonna jump in practice, so if you bring them into tutoring and you're doing a whole bunch of jumps, you may be overjumping your quick hitters or your hitters in general. So I think there's, you know, I like to spend some time with just the setters, kind of groove things in, here's the tempo we want, we're gonna work in a medium pass mostly 'cause that's what we're gonna be in, we're gonna be in a lot of medium and transition around the 10 foot line, we're actually gonna pass a lot of medium probably. So I spend a lot of time training in the medium and then bring hitters in and talk about, okay, you know, this is still a go from the 10 foot line, we want you to be rolling through your second step or whatever, and now we're gonna try to train this, you know, the ball's gonna come in, I'm gonna pass it, it's gonna be medium, we want you to be on your second step and go take a rip at this thing. And so the setters are working on that setter hitter relationship stuff. And, you know, when we do that, you know, something I had mentioned to coaches at the convention was, you know, we try to keep adjustments one way because I think when you're dealing with setters and middles, the middle goes, okay, you know, I'm gonna get it, I'm gonna wait a little bit or I'm gonna get it in there earlier or something like that. And the setter goes, okay, well, I'm gonna make this change and then you have these two things, sometimes it's completely opposite of each other, trying to change and the disconnects, you know, never really solve themselves. So I think it's easier if you just say, hey, make that set and this hitter is gonna make an adjustment and get in earlier or get in sooner. And, or she's gonna, you know, approach not as wide on this wide quick or something like that. And so if you keep the adjustments one way, I think you find success a little bit faster. - And it makes sense to have the setters set, just the same set and have the hitter adjust, the same practice. When it comes to actual match, is there any adjusting there like if the setters senses the hitters late, are they adapting? - Yeah, yeah, that's that situation of awareness stuff I was talking about because, you know, not every pass is the same height and the same rhythm and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, there's a quick hitter, maybe gets pinned by a serve or something like that. So now they're a little bit late getting into their, into their gap and the setter has to take into consideration. You know, can I get them the ball? You know, is it gonna be too slow? You know, I'm not a real big believer in a setter getting backed up and then setting the long wide quick because I think that, you know, it takes too long to develop and the blockers are all over it. And so, you know, we try to pass to the middle of the court, you know, to the middle of the net. And, you know, I think those are all decisions that you have to talk about with your setters and just say, hey, in this situation, you know, do you see how, you know, this is not great to set this wide front quick when you're backing up in the right front because it's just, it's not gonna be super effective. It's not a quick anymore.