Tracee Ellis Ross: Holding On to Joy In Hard Times

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. One of the themes of the Pod lately and our work always I think has been how do we stay, engaged and active in the world and how do we do that while holding fast to our joy. I've been thinking about that a lot lately as I approach my 50th birthday. I've been thinking about what I want for this next decade that I want to be engaged. I want to be part of world changing, but I do not want to be part of hustle culture. I just want freedom and joy and depth and connection. And every time I think about those things in particular, I think about Tracy Ellis Ross. I have this one image of Tracy that's like branded into my brain and it was her at her 50th birthday party, which was incredible. She threw it for herself. She was surrounded by her biological family, her chosen family, all of these people who love her and have been loved by her. And when she stood up in front of us in her mother's beautiful dress, she grabbed a microphone and she sang, "I'm 50 and I'm free while she was just surrounded by these people that you know if you have listened to her speak on our pod." The people that she calls her "coldron people" because she has this idea that we were all mixed in a specific batch of the cauldron. And then we're spilled out into the world and our job is to find the people who are made of the same stuff that was in the cauldron when we were mixed. And when we find them, we just kind of recognize them and say, "Oh, you're my cauldron person." So as we navigate this incredibly difficult time, we need these lighthouses who show us how to show up and also how to stay whole while we show up in Tracy's when I'm, let's go. Hi Tracy Ellis Ross. You all welcome to "We Can Do Hard Things." I'm going to really rush through the intro because today we have one of my favorite people. Is that not true? It is very true. On this entire planet, Tracy Ellis Ross is an award-winning actress and producer best known for her roles in ABC's award-winning comedy series "Blackish" and "Girlfriends" for her role as Rainbow Johnson in "Blackish" as a comedic leading actress. Ross won the Golden Globe Award in 2017 as well as nine NWACP image awards. She was nominated for five Emmys and two critics choice awards. Ross is the CEO and founder of "Pattern," a haircare brand for the curly, coily, and tight textured masses. Ross recently executive produced and narrates who lose the hair tails. Amazing. A docu-series about "Black women, beauty, and identity" through the distinctive lens of "Black hair." Upcoming Ross will be producing a 10 episode podcast "I Am America," which aims to break through the noise during this divided time in our country. Did you know that? I did not. In our country. I can't wait to share that. I can't wait. Yeah, I honestly can't wait for you to hear it. Oh my god. Yeah. This is so funny, Lizzie. You know what's funny about it? It's funny to listen to a friend read your stuff. Because it has nothing to do with our connection. Yeah. And so it's funny. Like it my birthday when my friends had the microphone. I was so tickled. That's what we want to talk about. We first of all, we decided we're going to do this interview differently than we ever do interviews because we don't want it to be like, "This is your life thing." Because what I told my sister and Abby is that I just thought of this category of person. But you are my all-have-what-she's having. Yes. When you look at someone and you're with them and you spend time with them and you see who they are in the world and you're just like, "I will have what she's having." Yeah. And I just truly find you to be one of the most unique and wise and magnificent women I know. Oh my god. How kind? Well, most people are like one thing or another thing. You just kind of like pick something and go with it. But you are so raw and real and also glamorous. Yes. You're so powerful and poised but also very transparent and tender. It's just all the things at once. And so now I get to have you for an hour and do what I've always wanted to do, which is I need you to tell me everything you know. Okay? And you're so. I did that. We kind of did that in my old house. I know. I know. I know. I know. I mean, I'm so happy to meet you as well. It's like crazy. Your voice is like a part of my world. I haven't had time with you. Yeah. So it's lovely to meet you. This is fun. First of all, what you just said about me, it's so interesting to have mirrored back a version of yourself that is actually the version you want to be, you know. And to get to a place in an age where it's happened a couple of different times in my life and I go, "Oh okay, like despite what it feels like sometimes in the stranger's neighborhood that is my mind, sometimes it's a great place and sometimes like don't go in there alone." Despite sort of some of that inner dialogue and that really bad story that happens in my head, every once in a while I catch glimpses of the way I'm actually presenting. And it's a nice moment of validation and encouragement of like, "Okay, you're doing okay. You're moving in the right direction." I think so, Tracy. If you're not, we're all fucked. If you're not, we're gonna stop trying. So can you explain to my sister and because I've already talked to Abby about this ad nauseam, but what you talked to me about cauldron sisters. Yeah. Talk to me about what the cauldron is. So I have this theory that souls are made in bunches. And I don't know, mother nature, someone somewhere, some beautiful gathering of people. They have these big cauldrons that they make people in, that they make souls in. And it's souls, honestly, not people. And you know, they're like, "Okay, what's this going to have?" I don't know, a little bit of heartbreak, but like a lot of joy. I don't know. And these are going to be people who have really open hearts and whatever. And then they go, when they're cooked, when the little veggies are cooked in their souls, they like sprinkle them out through time. And some of them are like, you know, they were back in 1816 and one goes in a dog and one goes in a lizard and one goes in a, Abby and one goes in a Glennon and one goes in an Amanda and they're like all over the place. And then you don't know when or how or what's going to bring you to another cauldron fellow sister or whatever, whomever. But you meet someone and you're like, "Oh, we're from the same suit." Oh my god, this is exactly correct. Right? Like it's one of those things where you're just like, I don't know what it is. Like why do I feel like I've known you forever? It's like, "Oh, we have the same mat. We have the same ingredients." Oh. And although the time period were from or the town were from or whatever, like there was nothing that you would think would make our lives match, somehow we come from the same ingredients. Yeah. Do you know what those things are? That's interesting. I really find that I am from the same suit of people who, because I say that there's some people where there's a lot of matches on the external things and then there's the people that it's just like the inner road map. It's just similar. The things that soothe and comfort and the willingness to have the inside conversation on the outside, the deep conversation, the transparency, and the thing that's interesting is sometimes, like I mean, you know, we don't see each other all the time. But I've called you in tangly moments. And I've run into you on planes. And somehow there's a connection that is beyond the circumstances of our life. And so maybe the people from my cauldron, also I do think back in the day I would have been certainly burned at the stage. Totally. Definitely a witchy lady. I know I kind of think our culture is literal. I think it's a literal. It might be. Yeah. It really might be. We might actually be out of a steaming cauldron. Yeah. Yeah. Like so much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always say that when you hear those old stories about the women that were burned at the stake because of their beliefs and their feelings and their instincts and their intuition and their deep soul calling, I read their description. And I'm like, huh, that sounds like a really great lady. Yes. Every damn time. Yeah. I'm like, hmm, that that sounds like someone I would really want to be friends with. Yeah. Every time you hear of a witch, you think cauldron sister. I think that's my sis. Speaking of. So Abby and I were freaking lucky enough to be at your recent 50th birthday celebration of life. It was so freaking beautiful. Yes. It was a cauldron of your people. It was. And I really appreciate you guys coming out of the house because I know for me and for you, that's not an easy thing. Well, I would do anything for love, I literally even do that. I'm one of those people that I'm-- I'm like, yeah, I would love to go, but do I really want to leave the house? - Yeah, yeah. I'm always thinking, oh, I wish I wanted to go. Oh, that's the best. That's exactly right. - Uh-huh. So I have to tell you, we were there for maybe 10 minutes when maybe six people had come up to us and introduced themselves to us as your best friend. - Yep. - Okay, I just started, now that's what I do. I do an interview, so I just say I'm glad in Doyle, I'm Tracy Ellis, Ross is best friend. But it was amazing how many people were so, you're just beloved to people. One woman told us that you were the only person who was in her delivery room, delivering her twins, and she told us this next to her husband. I kept thinking, oh, - He was on a business trip. - Oh, that's right. - She was on hospital rest with her twins. She had to be in the hospital hooked up to things. And he happened to go, like for a 24 hour, like he literally had to go somewhere for a work trip. And so I was on call and I got the call. - Oh my God. - And I was, yeah, right there. And then I switched off. And then when he arrived, I, but I was the first one to hold them. - Oh. - Feeling in clover. And it was really magical. I have to say, the doctor actually said, 'cause you know they put the little curtain up. And the doctor was like, you can actually sit down. You don't have to watch, I was like, no, I'm fine. (laughing) - And then I was like, actually, can you scoot over a little bit? - Yeah, you're blocking my view. I'm just sorry. (laughing) It was amazing. - You have described yourself as a barnacle on your good friend's lives. I just love that image so much that you insist upon and allow yourself to be a barnacle. Talk to us about that. - Yeah, you know, there's a really interesting thing. I am single. I have been single. I've been single for a very long time. I've had many wonderful ins and outs of things, but no one stuck to the pan. And as a result, I get to curate my family. My chosen family around me. And I don't think I realized the gift of that until I've started to get older. But my friend, Samira, she's the one that coined that barnacle phrase. And. - She did a toast. She did that. - She did the toast. Yeah, so Samira, I met when I was 22 at Mirabelle Magazine when I went to work as an intern in the fashion department there. And she was also an intern. She's now the editor in chief of Harper's Bazaar. - What? - Yeah. We've been through all these journeys together. And really, it's just the best metaphor because it's like you think of a barricole, I keep thinking of those people that are chord with scraping the barnacles off the bottom of the boat that don't want to go. And they've made home there. And then they shackled the other barnacles. And they're attached to the boat and making a life on a thing that's not really where they're supposed to be because it's supposed to be on a rock, not a boat. And that's what I feel like. I feel like I'm on the back of Samira's butt. - She's like, "I got you, girl. You can't even reach me if you try and scrape me on." - I remember someone saying once, I tried to get rid of that relationship, but it was like gum on your shoe. There's always like residue of it somewhere. And it's the best residue. I mean, you know, the history that occurs over, so Monica and Samira were the two that gave that back and forth speech together. And Monica and I met in college. I was 17, 18, 17. We were both 17. Our boyfriends were best friends. And they're long gone. - Wow. (laughing) - They are long gone. - They were not antiques. - They were not barnacles. - They were like, they were like the people with the brush and you're like, "Look with that! Good luck with that, buddy." So Monica, 17, Samira, when I graduated from college and was interning, I met her at 22. I'm 50 now. So these are long run situations. And Monica's an only child. So I'm the sister. I remember her son, we were together somewhere and there's a video of it. It's fantastic. I'm sitting on Monica's lap or she's sitting on my lap. And he was like, "What are you guys doing? That's weird." And Monica said, "This is what people do. They love each other." - Oh. - This is what it looks like kid. Get used to it because this is it. - You know? - And I love it. - And yeah. So Barnacle, I'll be there. I'll be there on there. What was that friend song? ♪ I'll be there for you ♪ - I only hear six times a day. So I just love that idea of it being okay to be stubbornly stuck to someone. 'Cause I think so many of us are afraid to be a burden. And I love the claiming of that. - I absolutely am afraid of being a burden. I think one of the things, I can't remember who said this to me that not one friend or one person has to be all things to you at all times. Which is really helpful because I come from some wiring and information that might have told me something a little bit confused. - Not me. - My messages were very clear. - Yeah, really clear. I'm not unpacking any of these adult. - No. - No, no. It's a patriarchy didn't teach me nothing. - No. - So what do you mean? - Well, so we go back to this model that you're sold. That we not only are we sold it, but we are fed it. And we have to drink it and it's everywhere. And if you're not careful, you actually think it's true. And it's the only bit of news for you. Which is that my job as a woman is to learn to be choosable. Having nothing to do with who I am, what makes my heart sing, floats my boat, makes me feel safe, makes me feel comfortable, makes me feel good, makes me feel powerful, makes me feel smart. Any of those things, but really is more about how I might be seen so that I might be chosen, so that my life could mean something as a chosen woman who then gets to have a child and then be a mother and do that for a child. So our culture sells us this and there's nothing wrong with that journey. But if it's a chosen journey, as opposed to the one that you think is gonna make you worth anything. And then everything starts to fall into that messaging. And then if you're a black woman, there's like a whole other blah, blah, blah. There's so many different versions of that. But that's like that overarching thing as a woman. And then your friendships fall into that whole too. So if you haven't been chosen for a guy, then you're gonna fill all that God-sized whole and all those different things with a friend and then you become the best friend. And then it just, you know, all it just gets all real tangled and real confusing. I've been grateful enough to have found places where there are eons of tools in different ways to unpack that crazy messaging, make sense of it in a way that actually gives me a shot at genuine happiness and a robust life that's actually mine. And it's like a daily reprieve. Some days are better than others. Some days the old messaging comes in, sweeps in and I've got a really nice matching story that goes with it of my unlovable ability and that narrative that just kind of travels along with it. And if I'm not careful and go into, you know, that thinking alone, I get stuck there. And then, you know, you come out. (upbeat music) 91% of dog parents say their dog is a full member of their family. My only question is for the other 9%. 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How do you not go into your own mind or thinking alone? - What is our strategies? - Friendships. I have practices of healing and support that I lean towards therapy, some of which I keep sacred and private, some of those, you know, but I don't share them necessarily publicly. But friendship has been the biggest and the willingness to be completely transparent and to be able to call people when I am on the floor. Whether it's metaphorically or physically on the floor, but when in my mind I have been floored, which happens often. I can't remember the, I think it's friendship. The tools that tether me, this is actually something I got from you. Tether me to what I like best about my life, which is the basic things. - Yes. - My favorite part of my life is my life. I love all the stuff, but like I really like my making my bed in the morning or doing laundry or making my food or taking the garbage out. Like just the basics that really tether me to my own humanity and my own sense of self and being able to show up and be of service and all of those things. I have so many different tools that keep me out of my, it's honestly like my mind is a wonderful place. It gets dangerous when I get connected to the really bad horror story that I have been stitching together since I was young. And somehow if I get, if I fall back into that group, it is so dangerous up there. And then everything's colored by the wrong information. Everything's out. It's like our minds are such, I mean yours especially, like magical creep things come out of it that are unbelievable, not of this world. And that's when you're in charge of it. When you give it a job, yes. When it gives you a job, like when you haven't directed it, no good. - You know, is it when I haven't directed it, that's an interesting distinction. I don't know. Sometimes I don't know what it is that starts it. 'Cause sometimes it's not connected the way I think it is. It could be like two days ago, I was with somebody who started me being afraid about something. And then somehow that fear like starts to snowball and then it starts reaching into other areas. Like once I start getting afraid, it could just start with a little anxiety. And I think I've shared this with you. I'm one of these people that, I don't know what, I don't know how this happened, but I don't get scared of stuff until after. - Yeah. - Like I'm a girl that like jumps off a cliff, right? I'm like, oh my God, let's do it. This is the scariest thing in the world. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna get organized. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do my research. I'm gonna make sure I'm rehearsed. I'm gonna make sure I know what I'm wearing. How I'm doing it? Who's gonna be there? What are we doing? (laughing) And then I go, psst. And I jump off the cliff and I'm up there and I'm like, I'm flying. I'm flying up the cliff. I'm flying and it's so good. It's everything I wanted it to be. This is the best cliff I've ever been. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. And then I land. And then I'm like, what? - No. - What? Did I just say? - Who would do that? - Yeah. - Why would you do that? Oh my God, you're so dumb. This is actually evidence. Put that in the fire of unlovable ability. That shit is gonna roar. We're gonna make sure that we go back through every single thing that you did with a fine tooth goma and we're gonna prove to you that you are exactly the most unlovable, stupid, humiliating person in the world. How could you ever, you are filled with shame, you are riddled with it. And then that's what happens on the next day. Like it's out of control. - Oh shit. - It's like out of control. - Risk hangover. - Wow. - Yeah. It's a risk hangover. And then what's crazy is like in that state, someone could say, oh my God, that was so amazing. They could say one thing and I can hear that they were covering. They were telling me the part they liked. But then it's my job to figure out all the things that I did wrong that they didn't like. - Yes. - And the truth is, some of that is an ace in my deck, right? Because I'm not gonna make a mistake twice, I'll say that. Some of it's an ace in my deck, but when left unchecked without compassion and tenderness and kindness, and when I'm alone with it, he's in no when. - Gentle gentle gentle gentle. - That's one of my favorites. Like give it twice. And then I have another friend who always says to me, give yourself a thousand breaks. And when those are done, give yourself a thousand more. - Yes. - And then I'm better at that as I've gotten older. One of the things I learned from payment children that was the most, not that I know her. - From her from from from from from from from from from her books and the two. - But she's walking around going, hi, I'm Pima children, I'm face the Alice Rosses best friend. Listen, this is exactly where I feel. By the way, gladden and avi, when people found out that you they were like, wait, your friends with them. - Oh. - It was amazing. I was like, yeah, that's whether, yeah, we're best friends. (laughing) But yeah, I don't talk about my, my, my, my, my, my, my, our friends. So, but one of the things I learned from my dear friend, Pima, was if I can't take the information in, like there's times when it's not the time for me to look back. - Hmm. - And I can wait until I can actually look back constructively and not in a way that's gonna create another wound. - It's good. - It's good, I'm not in a way that I don't know. And I'm learning, as I've gotten older to be delivered about my after care. So, like I had a plan the day after my birthday. - Hmm. - What was it? - It involves going somewhere where I could have proper support and be a part of a community that supports me in that way. And I gave myself the day, I left for a cop of the next day. So, I had all day to look through and make sure I felt okay about it. I have to like see it back for myself to hold it in a way that it actually remains. And one of the things I do with my therapist is before something, we now ask the question, how do you want to feel after? - Yup. - And what do I need to put in place to support myself in the after? And I'm such an independent person. One of the things I really am not good at is I think I'm good and I need to better plan being not alone. Because I'm always, I like to go places alone, but I need the partnership in it. And so, it's really interesting. - You just gave us a to-do list on how to support people who have events or situations that might be a big deal and to work through how it was and also to take care of yourself post. Because going out of the house is a thing. - It's a thing and it's more of a thing now post-pandemic. A lot of that stuff kicked back up for me. - Yes. - Yeah. Did you feel like the birthday would be so, would be vulnerable because so many people were there that you loved? How did you decide that you want to feel after it? - One of the things my mom loves is celebration. She just, since my mom loves Christmas, so I'm a child that came from celebration. Celebration for the birthday. Like, birthdays were just, it was magic what my mom would do. She would draw on all the mirrors. There were balloons. So like, you would look in the mirror and it would say, "Mommy loves you. Happy birthday." It was just the most glorious, like, she just loved celebration. I am honestly, it's taken me a long time to realize, I'm not that person. I don't decorate for Christmas. You gotta take it down then. - That's exactly right. It's exactly how I feel. - Same reason I don't wear mascara. - You gotta take it off. - Yeah. (laughing) Aftercare. - It's like, no, thank you. You know, like, if I'm not doing it for work, you've gotta be kidding me. So I celebrate in different ways. It's like different for me. So I made some conscious choices because it was 50 about what I wanted to do. Last year, I had the most perfect birthday ever. It was six people. at dinner, a restaurant I always go to, or did the same things I ordered. And we were just talking, it was just a regular dinner. It's all it was, it was fantastic. This felt important for me. It is an honor to turn 50. - Yes. - There are people, particularly after what we went through with COVID, so many people lost their lives, people don't make it into this age, and I feel honored. Even the things that I'm really challenged by. I feel like, really challenged by. But I feel like thank you. Like, look, we're, like this is evidence of my life and my history, and my legacy, and my laughter, and my things, you know? And so I really wanted to market with that. And so I had to ask myself, what would make it feel like a celebration for me? Some of those things were, I wanted costume changes. - Oh God. Just wait 'cause we have so many things. - Clothing, clothing, really. It just dressing up is just, it's, I don't know, people might think it's, it's, I love it. When I am having a bad day, one of my favorite things to do is go in the closet and play dress up. I woke up this morning, I bought a new sweater, and I woke up this morning at 6.30 and I was like, "Ooh, I have the outfit." And I, in my glasses, my hair everywhere, I stripped down and went in the closet and made the look with the new sweater, and literally looked in the mirror and was like, "Yeah, you got it, you got it, you got it." That's what I'm talking about. - Oh, Tracy. - I have no idea where I'm gonna wear that outfit. I never leave the house. But I was like, that's what I'm talking about. That's Tracy. - Ah. - All right, now I'm a burst fatigue. (laughing) - I need to ask a question about it, okay? - Yes. - And this might be totally, I'm just, you have said about fashion. It's not look at me, it's, this is me. - Yeah. - This is me. Okay, I need you to explain to me what the hell that means. I understand like a chef can be like, here is my heart and mind and soul on a plate. Tracy Ellis Ross can be like, here is my mind and my heart and my soul in a sweater. I am amazed by it. - Okay, so when I was young, I've always loved beautiful things. I used to trail after my mom and pick up the beads that fell off of her dress on stage after the curtain went down. You could hear them crunching under our high heels and I would get those little 35 millimeter canister things and I would collect them and then I would separate them by color into the different beads. And so I've always loved the artistry of clothing. I saw a woman, my mother, used clothing and glamour as a way to transform herself into a different version of herself, but still herself and a woman with agency. It was about her, it wasn't about pleasing someone else. It was sort of adorning herself with the, all of the bubbles that she felt were a version of this part of her life. And so that was always my relationship to clothing and glamour and sparkle. And then I started to use clothing as armor. And now looking back, I can define, there were two ways that I fought racism without realizing that's what it was, but I came from a wealthy world and I was living on Fifth Avenue, but I was still one of very few black people in many environments, in stores and different places. And I didn't know that what was coming at me sometimes was micro-aggression and micro-racism and all those kinds of things coming having these different ways. And so the way I presented myself was part of my armor. I was going to play the role of somebody who couldn't be fucked with. And so I did it in grade school, high school, like I just, there was a way that I would see, it was just, it was my armor. And then it sort of transformed itself and transmuted itself out of armor and into a form of creative expression for me. And it's one of the ways I wear my insides on my outside. And so I dress in all different kinds of ways. And back to what you said when you described me at the beginning, all these different parts of me that seem to match or don't match or whatever, like I let my clothing be that. So sometimes I want to feel really sexy and then sometimes I don't want to feel sexy. So it just depends on what I'm covering up and what I'm wanting to share and all that. And I worked in fashion and was a stylist for a while. So there's a language to clothing that I really speak. It's like sometimes I watch dancers and I think my God, the language of their bodies. Like they're literally speaking a language. And for me, style as opposed to fashion, but style is an expression the same way, a loke defines beauty in a way that it's the imprint of your soul and it's beauty is something that blossoms. And I feel for me clothing is a version of that. I really wish everyone would adopt that understanding of beauty, by the way, just blows my mind. I think it's wild that you just mentioned a loke because that's what I was thinking of when you were talking. (upbeat music) - Your bra and underwear shouldn't be the most uncomfortable things you're wearing. That's why I tried me undies. The feel free bra lets and underwear are made from this ultra soft ultra modal fabric that moves with you. No adjusting, no irritation, just comfort that actually lasts all day. It's breathable, stretchy and perfect, no matter what you're doing. From classic black basics to really fun seasonal prints, there's something for everyone. 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The ancient spirit that is inside of Tracy was in that first costume. - Yeah, that first outfit was genuinely like some futuristic like time. - I don't know. - Aliens. - Or Roman. - Yeah, yeah. - Or I don't know if it's going backwards or forwards or upwards to heaven or downwards. Yeah, we were outside of time. - And then the dream to wear one of my mother's dresses. - There's the love tradition, honor of the lineage, the that outside of Tracy. - Can I tell you a cute part of that dress? - Please. - So I sent my mom a picture of a black version of that dress and I was like, so where's this? Where's this? She was like, oh, we can go to the storage and we can find it. Then she said, but there's a red one and I was like, great, so the red one was even better. But so I went to my mom's house and I have spent much time in her quick change booth when I was younger learning how to get her in and out of a dress in three minutes. And there's a way you hold the waist, you butterfly a dress on the floor, so you step right to the floor and then the dress comes up because there's way like 30 pounds those dresses. - Oh my gosh. - And so you hold my mom's waist, so she's steady as she reaches down to pull the dress up and then you switch. which once she's got it up enough, you switch and her arms go in and then you can zip up, right? And so I've done that many a time and all through the years. And so this time I went to her house and there I was, totally naked with my mom holding my waist. And I said, "Mom, I'm so sorry "because I took my underwear off." I'm like, "I'm so sorry, mom." And she was like, "I know, I know that thing." And I was like, "I know what you haven't seen "in a long time, you know what I mean?" (laughing) It's like, "Get a little bit out of your reach now." - She's like, "I made that thing." - I know. And as I always say, which really drives her crazy, I'm like, "I know I came out of your vagina." I'm always makes her crazy. (laughing) She's like, "Ugh!" So appropriate. So she's there, I'm naked and she's zipping me into her dress and then taking the pictures of me and it was really moving for me, very, because so much of my life, Dianna Ross aside, but I saw my mother, I saw this incredible woman in a sparkly dress on a stage and what it meant to me about being a woman in charge of your life. The example, a woman that was saying, this is me, not look at me. A woman that was in her full glory and freedom with her arms up, her heart open, in her sensuality and sexuality. And so it was a lighthouse that I've been walking towards, so then at my 50th birthday, to actually be in one of those dresses and to strangely out of nowhere, grab the microphone and unrehearsed her song, "It's My Turn" and change that line to 50 and I'm free. That was just kind of magical. And in the cauldron of my loved ones. - I mean, and also the same beads that you were picking up as a child. - Everybody was jaws open. - I mean, how are we witnessing this? - Yeah, it was a really unplanned and unbelievably special moment. It was so interesting because after my birthday, which is what I'm in now, it feels like I had a new year's eve. And I'm on the other side and I'm the dust has settled from blackish and I was tethered to that for so many years where everything was around it. I'm also going through Perry, Menopause. So I have for my entire life been tethered to a very routine cycle. And I'm very connected to my body, so I would know I'm ovulating them. I would have all the feelings in knowing that and all of that is out the window. And I turned 50 and here I am in this open space now, sort of allowing the bubbling up of whatever might be here because I'm really specific about my life. And I'm somebody who doesn't just go where the tide is taking me. I really, I manifest quickly. So I language deliberately because otherwise I go places I didn't mean to go. And so it's a really interesting and open special moment right now. - You're so fucking cool. - So sexy. - If you wanna say something. - So I wanna say so many things. - Say things. - Are you crying? Is anyone not crying? - That's the first. - Sister, cried. - That doesn't happen in our family, Tracy. I'm just sitting kind of in awe of the life that you have built with such intention and how utterly uncompromising you've been in terms of being yourself and all of the passions and agency and choices that that means, what do you attribute that to? Like what do you attribute your kind of abilities? (laughing) - Yeah. - Well, what she does is Tracy doesn't abandon herself. - Yeah. - Well, you know, it's interesting. I've really learned how to do that because I think that I have abandoned myself way too many times. - Mm-hmm. - Way too many times. But each time in the aftermath of the hurt, I do ask myself the question of how do I not end up here again? And what I have discovered is I will end up here again. - Oh, God, it's true. Damn it. Why don't we just learn in those same lessons over and over? - I just think that's it though. It's funny. I just, I have been nursing another just deep disappointment and my little inner child was, she was just crying, just crying so hard. And for the first time, I was able to sit with her and I was like, here's the thing my love. I'm not going anywhere. (sighs) I'm not going anywhere. I don't know. I don't know how to be anybody else. I just don't. But what I know how to do is to be me and to just hold that space with as much compassion and curiosity and gentleness as possible and to find all the things, even if it's a bag of freaking funnions. Like what is it? What is it that we need today to just try and hold that space of love? I think that's the thing we're sold that's wrong. I don't know that life is supposed to be a thing that just feels good all the time. - That's right. - But how can we hold the spaces and the days and the periods when ages doesn't feel good? And I just feel so unlovable. And how can I have the hurt without deciding it means I'm unlovable? How do you not give meaning to it? And that's where the work is, like in that little space, right? Because I tell you, I mean, I mean, this is, I'm on the floor half the time. I'm one of your questions. What was the question? Like how often do you feel bad? What is, I saw that. - Yeah, how often are you down? - A lot. - Lots of times, like three last year. - Anything. - Three last year. - I'm joking. - I like doing yuck. - Do you mean like, what? I don't remember last year. I am bogged down by this year. Thank you. I'm bogged down by this week. And the thing that's crazy to me is like, you're just sailing along. It's like a good one. I'm like feeling good. - You got your sweater. - And then like, and like, waiters, I'm like, oh, I did not know I was gonna get side-swiped by that. - And why am I two days later still in a hangover? Why is it a week later? And also I've learned that two things can be true at the same time. I can be really productive and doing really well and also like heartbroken. Yeah. Something you just said, I don't know how to be anything but me. To me, that is so incredible. Because I know how to be anything. (laughing) I almost anything but to me. (laughing) That's good. And so there is an equal amount of pain and loneliness in being able to be everything other than you. - Yes. - And so like that thing, how did you get to the place where you could AB you and identify it like this is Tracy. I can see it, I can smell it. I can put it in a sweater. And then how did you get to the place where you just couldn't be anything other than that? - Well, I actually think that's the question is actually how the entrance into it was making friends with the loneliness and the hurt that comes on either side. - Mm-hmm. - Because I was other than me forever. And I still have days where I'm like, "What the fuck did I just say that?" - Like, I don't, I didn't believe what it was. What is that first thing that was so weird? Like, "What did I do that?" - You get home and you're like, "We got that person thing, someone person who does." I don't do that. - Yeah. - Yeah. - No worries, I'll just move. - Like, yeah. - That's what I think every time a bug comes to my house. - Yeah. - Good for you. - And this is your lovely new home. - Thank you. (laughing) - Also, you know, I don't have kids. I don't have, I haven't had a partner. So I have been forced to go like, well, I don't know, what do I want then? There's so many things I don't do 'cause there's only so many things you can do alone. And I do a lot of the things alone that most people are like, "I can't believe you do that alone." I go on vacations alone, I go to dinner alone on a Friday night at seven or eight o'clock. You don't even be like, "I do all those things, but there's certain things I like." I'm not gonna do alone, I'm just not. And so I've been forced to kind of figure out that going in my closet and making an outfit like really makes me happy. You know what I mean? Like I get jizzed up and I'm like, "That was good." Now I'm gonna go watch the crown. Get my hair out. (laughing) Woo! This day was good. I'm gonna eat a whole jar of olives, all by myself. Even though my sister said, I smell like olives when I was five. I like olives, I'm gonna eat the whole jar. I'm like, now I just, I literally people put a bag, you know, open a bag of potatoeships, I take a jar of olives, and I pour the liquid out and like dump it into a bowl and I eat the wall of olives. (laughing) It sounds like heaven. It's heaven to me, but so I think it's more the other thing 'cause I think we all suffer with am I this or am I that, but like how do we tend to, how do we hold really lovingly and gently the aftermath that comes up? Mm-hmm. Yeah. The shame, all those things that you should be doing something. different, living a different way, should have done it differently, said it differently, or whatever, like, how do you hold that part of you? Because that's the thing I think that holds us back from actually having a life that we want to live. But I struggle with all this. I mean, I'm just bumbling along over here. Don't compare it in size other people's outside. That's right. It always looks like it's easier over there. But it's also knowing that losing somebody hurts and then the losing yourself hurts more. Yeah. Yeah. I love you, but I love you more. Yeah. You know, and that's a really hard one. That doesn't work every day. Yeah. It doesn't work every day. Yeah. I mean, I wish you, but I love you more. So fuck it. You know what? Today, today you win by right today. I have, today I have, I have thrown me out the window with your friend. You know, I got this and I'm going out. Yeah. And tomorrow I will, I will deal with the aftermath. That's right. We will call the therapist and the squad of friends. And we will try and put me back together because I obviously threw me out into a whole bunch of pieces. I also used to be a person I swear to God, I would run the things by everybody. Like go to it, like put $20 on the gas tank number 12. And let me ask you a question. So there's this, there was this guy that said, and so he called and I call, should I do I call him back? I don't, I mean, I just, I know, yes, on 12 number 12, I guess. But do you have any experience with us? Because you're objective. And I know you don't know me. So I just want to run this my, is anything you could tell me about your choice when it comes to the calling and back to I went two days like, you know, I do. I do. I'm a child. I'm a child. I'm a child. I'm going to try everybody. And I mean, or the my life is mind speech. Like that was all my favorite line in that was I asked my ex boyfriend. Like tell us, get out of here Tracy. Like come on. Like you have not been with this person. And how long? What's you doing, girl? I know. It you don't need his permission. But it still comes up, you know? And I also have six people who haven't listened to that. Okay. Sorry. Um, speech. It was the realization that Tracy came to after she found herself doing over the need to tell her very ex boyfriend that she was interested in seeing other people. If you're listening, you couldn't see I rolled my eyes so hard that I thought they might get stuck behind my head at the thought of myself doing that. Yeah. This is the thing. I have a friend who also says, you know, we know better. We don't always do better. And we choose it anyway. And so what? And that's the same person who says, Hey, babe, why don't you give yourself a 1000 breaks? And I have that friend's number also. You do. She comes on the podcast. She might be my actual best friend because it's crazy. Like you just, yeah, you don't know. She always says to me, it's not always what you're doing. It's the questions you're asking. That's the right questions. I know what's interesting to me is while you're talking and you're talking about how you talk to yourself. And I know how you've talked to other people. And I was thinking about how you've mentioned twice that, well, I don't have kids, but and I was thinking that the people, I have three people in my life who I consider to be the best mothers. Like you know what I'm going to say right now, who just have the most pristine mothering energy. And it's you. These are the people in my life. You Liz Gilbert and Alex Edison. And what's, what today all three have in common? They don't fucking have kids. Yeah. Yeah. They're all very good. They're the, they're also all gorgeous. Yeah. They're the best mothers that I know. I will say I say this to people all the time. I'm a wonderful mother. Wonderful. And I'm very mothering. And, and it's been hard for me to claim that in a world where I don't have the thing that says, I mean, what did I, what was they just writing as I'm trying to let me see how that. I can feel my body's abilities. This was journal entry from like three or four days ago. I can feel my body's ability to make a child draining out of me. Sometimes I find it hilarious. And as if there's a fire sale going on in my uterus and someone's in there screaming, all things must go. And then I look down and blah, blah, blah, skip that. And then this is what's interesting to me. As my body becomes a foreign place to me that doesn't really feel safe or like home. And I don't know how to manage or control or fight the external binary narrative of the patriarchy that has hunted me and haunted me most of my adult life. Is it my fertility that is leaving me? Is it my womanhood? Or is it really neither? But I have to fight to hold my truth because I have been programmed so successfully by the water we all swim in, by the water we all are served. And I feel fertile with creativity full of power more and more of a woman than I've ever been. And yet that power that I was told I must use was not used. A power, um, yeah. I mean, just trying to figure out sort of what that means. Like because my ability to have a child is leaving me, but like I don't agree that that's what fertile means. I don't agree that that's what woman means. Which is why the freedom that the expansion around gender has offered me. And the knowledge that is being shared with us by the trans community is like, oh my God, thank you. Thank you for finally unpacking something that like I had no ability to unpack because of what was handed to me in a culture that like thought of it in such a limited way. And so trying to make sense of that at this age with my own limited point of view, um, is really fun, honestly. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. What's gorgeous. And what if that idea of fertility from so young? If it was handed to us and saying, what are you going to do with this fertility that you have? Yes. One minute aspect of that might be that you choose to reproduce. If that's your fat. Is this big? And then we would realize God, how many generations and generations of shallow ground because we were never presented with our own creative, forward thinking, beautiful fertility. And then all the women who just have kids who everyone looks at them and says, well, you should be freaking happy. You did the thing. You did the one fertile thing. And no, they maybe had a wide vast of what their fertility could have birthed into the world. Now, it's it really it's heartbreaking. It's a heartbreaking thought. It's heartbreaking. And I'm grateful to be able to look at it with curiosity, um, instead of heartbreak. And the heartbreak does come up. Uh, and I get to hold that gently and lovingly. And then say remind myself, like, I woke up every morning of my life and I've tried to do my best. So I must be where I'm supposed to be. Well, thank you for speaking up to on behalf of the trans community. I've never thought of it that way. And being a person who won't have my own biological children, you just kind of gave me a little bit of a roadmap of work. I need to do. And I just I'm really grateful for all that you just said. That was unreal. Hmm. She's something this one. She's something so hard for me to take any of that in. But it is a, an unbelievable injustice that is laid on all of us as human beings. Um, that there is one pathway that is informed by this random construct that somebody came up with around gender. When I pull back from it, I'm like, that's like a joke. Who did that? You don't, like, I'm just like, who? Who did that? That's, that's not that's so silly. Mm-hmm. You've just limited so much, so much life. You've limited so much life. And so almost like that was the point. Yes. Yeah. It's almost like that was the point, you know, really? Like it's like terrifying when you think about it. You're just like, Oh my gosh. So yeah, I ponder these things a lot and then every once in a while, I hear something and I'm just like, right, like, why did I why? Why did I? And then I have to forgive. We all have to forgive ourselves because we come by it honestly. It's what we've been served. It's what we've been giving. That's right. And the courage of those that give us a different roadmap that shares something that opens up an unlocks a space that we had locked down unconsciously is always such a gift. When you're sister Ronda, who I love so much, when she gave the toast, you know, she's the wise one, by the way, like, I'm chop, like, I'm chop liver in my family, like my siblings. She's something. The shoes. My hair siblings. Just like they're just magical. They take care of me, you know what I mean? They love you. The love you are having with each other is just the love is so palpable. Yeah. It was one of my favorite things about the night. It's just watching your siblings watch you when anyway, glowing, all glowing. Okay. I forgot what I was going to say. Ronda. Ronda. Okay. And then she said, she quoted you back to you when she said, my life is mine. And then you saying a song that was your mom's song and then as you said in the beginning you were saying I'm 50 and free. I'm 50 and free. What are you free from? When you were saying that what were you thinking and maybe freeing from like maybe we're never free from anything but yeah I don't I don't I don't I don't know that I'll be free. Yeah I've actually read little things I wrote when I was like 15 and 12 and I'm like wow I'm chomping on this stuff forever almost almost done. Fascinating. In other 50 years you're gonna have it nailed. I am gonna have this stuff nailed. I'm telling you. Think of the costumes. Um I remember this moment um I was crying so hard to this particular friend and I was like I just I know I don't think I just don't think like I just am not right like it's just that people have just not lovable like I do it all wrong and it's just like oh hold on hold on you know maybe you're just not everyone's cup of tea and I was like but I want to be everybody's like I want everybody to just like I want to be everybody's going to be like it's like maybe you're not and I was like um and she said what do you do this why don't you make a list of all of the things that you like about yourself and I was like that's just crazy um and I made this list and I realized that so many of the things that I like about myself are the things that I do think are difficult for people but they're the things that I like about myself. That I'm not afraid to say when I don't think something feels right that I'm not afraid to say when something doesn't feel right for me no matter how far and deeply into that thing I am. That I have a really loud laugh like all these different things right that make me maybe not everyone's cup of tea and that like totally changed my relationship to those aspects of me that I think I was trying to hide in order to be chosen to be lovable and blah blah blah so I don't know that my discomfort with not being everyone's cup of tea or the unloved ability and self-loathing that comes up I don't know that those are ever going to go away. I think that what I am free from or that I have a different relationship to them and the same way you say we can do hard things which I use all the time and is just such a good guiding force like I can do hard things I can also be uncomfortable I can also be comfortable when I'm uncomfortable I can also be happy even if I don't like how everything's going I don't know if it's what I'm free from but I have a larger container to hold myself and I know myself really well and it's taken a lot of time to have the courage to actually live my life as that person but I have a lot of experience chewing on ground glass and sort of not really and sort of sitting with the discomfort of I might have ruined that thing you know my big fear was am I going to ruin the course of my destiny if I make the wrong choice and my spiritual awakening in life has been I'm okay you can't ruin it babe you okay that's it there was no burning bush it was just you're okay and sometimes enough is enough and I have to make it better it's just fine it's just fine you're fine sweetie fine you don't have everything you want it's fine I love your laugh my laugh think about how we have to be to be everyone's cup of tea you'd have to be the weakest as tea you'd have to be the weakest as tea yeah we water no you'd have to be water and you can't believe water no it's gonna be like lukewarm and by the way people start like water that's right some people don't hate water it's just it's not possible no it's not possible and the more flavorful you are the narrow your tea audience might be yeah it might be a tea audience yeah you know I do think that your audience is pretty jm wide though trace the outside yeah I don't know I think I bug the hell out of a lot of people not I think they're the right ones I think they're the right ones okay baby they're a different culture and then we are going to let you go because we could talk forever but how long have we been tired has been like seven hours it's been an hour it's been an hour and it's been one of my favorite hours of this entire show seriously and once again you have shown up with all of your power and vulnerability and somehow they're the exact same thing and once again I just I just really love you yeah um I feel the same way I just want to say to the three years that I um I'm so grateful I'm grateful to um Amanda to know you um but to also have the honor of being a cauldron sister with you and to live in a world where we can have conversations that are this gentle and real um and quiet and loud and that you have these conversations with lots of people like what a blessing and you have them publicly and then you also have them privately yeah that's a really special thing that I don't think exists everywhere it's a special thing that you're bringing it into the world and I'm happy to be a part of it oh that's why we give you Tracy Ellis Ross um I'm not going to promise that it's ever going to get better than that so just relicin okay and the other episode enough is enough don't help from here enough enough and when life gets hard this week you're going to remind yourself it's okay sweetie it's okay it's okay it's okay gentle gentle gentle on right here right here not going anywhere bye bye we can do hard things is an independent production podcast brought to you by treat media treat media makes art for humans who want to stay human and you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and at we can do hard things show on TikTok