Town Planner Reveals Secrets About Getting Property Developments Approved in Australia

But we're at the point now where it's quite urgent to provide housing, local governments to be quite frank. They don't have as much of an interest in providing houses. By pursuing Utopia, we're creating a dystopia. The typical development application process from a planning perspective. What's the process? People think that the government can provide this magical cure and build all these houses. If the government actually built the houses, they would work out that expensive. You know, it just wouldn't be viable. On an average income, you should be able to buy an average house. Yes. On an average income right now, you're buying shit. People think of developers as these greedy, fat units sitting in their ivory town counting stacks of cash, no. When do you recommend the clients? The pre-logment is probably a waste of money and we should just log straight away. Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's the private industry that's going to build the houses and that it's the private industry that's going to solve the problem. Why are we still pointing fingers at developers and calling them the enemy doesn't make use of it? Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Unemployable Podcast. Today we have another property pod for you guys. And we have a very important person that's very important to me and now Shannon and Carson. And his name is Murray Wright. And Murray Wright is a co-owner of HPC planning here on the Gold Coast. He is a very, very famous, I should say, town planner on the Gold Coast in our circles. He's an unbelievable guy and just all around absolute gentleman. Murray, thanks for coming on. Much appreciated. And Carson, Shannon, as always, appreciate you guys. For those of you guys that don't know who these two gentlemen are. Four years ago, Carson literally was cleaning carpets and Shannon worked in an excavation business. And four years later, I shouldn't say four years anymore because now I probably, probably four and a half to five years now because we've been going for a little while. They're doing a huge amount of land developments across Southeast Queensland. And we actually have a couple clients here watching the pod live. We've got Adam and Matt Miles, two brothers that have joined the Unemployable Property Crew. Learning to do exactly what Shannon and Carson have been doing and how they've been changing. Their own lives and their families lives. And it's guys like Murray that help us do what we do. And for those of you guys that don't know myself, I've been in all different types of businesses for a long time. As well as property development businesses around the Ecom luxury accommodation space, health food space. And now I'm doing a favorite of property development. And I've been using Murray for a fair few years now. And Shannon and Carson have been flirting with Murray for quite some time. But I think they've just recently engaged him on a project. So it's great to have you on and it's not just another town planner. It's actually someone that we use and talk to on a day-to-day basis when we have projects rolling. So I guess Murray, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, how you got involved in town planning. And tell us a little bit of the story around HPC because you were in an owner and now you are. Yeah. Well, I appreciate the intro and thanks for having me. I come from a farming background originally. So I grew up on a crayfish and cattle farm. Got to know pretty young. So just the basics of things like how how water moves. We did a lot of excavation. We did a lot of what you would call, I suppose, now land development on the farm. So. That's pretty well where I started. And then after that, I guess, went through school. I've decided for a bunch of trades. Builders, Marco was a spark. He saw us running cables through the roof of the new houses from a pretty young age. And kind of, I wouldn't make a trade. He's our soul, to be honest, but I kind of got a taste for it back then. And my family have been involved in property development in different ways for a lot of years. And anyway, I went to uni, University of Queensland, study town planning, fell into it like a lot of other guys do. And I couldn't sit still to be honest. I went and worked on drill rigs for a couple of years back to uni. Went to the desert, worked on drill rigs for another couple of years. Finally finished my degree, got a bit of experience at a local firm in Brisbane. Andrew Pilly and then from there moved to Gold Coast Council. So worked at Gold Coast Council for a number of years in D.A. Got some really good experience, really good people actually. So I shouldn't talk shit about Council because there are quite a few good operators in there to be quite honest. Hard job. And then shortly after I was employed by HPC, had a few good wins off the bat and worked my way to senior associate. And then my director, Ernie Harvey, really well-known person in the industry, decided to hang up his gloves and offered myself and Chris Lewis out of Brisbane director, the opportunity to buy the company. And here we are. Yeah, how good. It's interesting digging deep in people's stories because one thing that really sticks out is that you work for Gold Coast City Council. And straight away when I think about that, I think of that as a great thing because there's town planners and then there's town planners that if they did work for Council straight away in my mind, I'm like they got to know people, they got to know how they work and what really happens behind the scenes. They don't know how true that is or not or how much that helps people like us, you know, as developers trying to get things over the line or have some more pull than other town planners and not but in my mind whether that's true or not in my mind it is. So do you guys feel the same? Oh, definitely, you've been on what I'd call the dark side, you understand, this is not the dark side. You know, the processes and now how Council look at it, how Council view certain things. It definitely helps you put in a cleaner, cleaner DA or cleaner responses because you know, you know, the outcome is. And for those of you guys that are listening to this podcast that are learning about property development, I mean in my eyes, the town planner is basically the glue, you know, they are the people that manage most of this process, they manage most of the consultants and in my opinion, they are probably the most important consultant to get right. And Murray with the dealings I've had with him and other people that I know that I've had with Murray and HPC have had nothing but great experiences, not to piss in your pocket, but it's the truth. What I like about you is you're quite cruzy of a guy like I I don't spend a lot of time with you outside of outside of work and you know phone calls and emails, but you seem quite cruzy, but at the same time you get shit done. And one thing I that I always ask of people that I work with, especially in these types of roles because you got to set expectations up front because when you're dealing with town planners and you're dealing with consultants. It's all time and when we're on the ticket and you're paying the interest bills and the rest of it every day counts and with someone like you, you pick up your phone and that's one thing for me that is very, very important. And if you don't pick up your phone, you your gentleman and you say, Hey, I'll call you within 15 minutes or I'll call you at 10 30 or whatever it is and there you are calling, there's always follow ups and to me, that is priceless. I don't know what your experience is Carson, but in my in my world, someone that doesn't pick up the phone really gives me the shit. Oh, it's a prerequisite for us, like me and Shannon, especially when we're using private money and we're bleeding 13% you know, it's adds up pretty quickly. So yeah, and this is we've had consultants like red engineers like, oh, yeah, we've got the RF fire back, which is your quest of information and we've got a scheduled in we'll start on until and a half months. Well, what you know, that's where it's painful, you know, and I've worked with terrible town planners before and like I said, we counsel will never say use this consultant or don't use this consultant. But I literally had someone in counts all the same as this is off the record, but why are you using that guy like he's terrible. And I thought I gave all I thought it was good, but I had no idea because I was pretty green myself. So yeah, obviously, you know, not in the head like your town planner, I'll be careful what I say because I was just engaged. But they're the cheapest planner for what for cheapest consultant rather for what they do and the value they bring because they're like said, they're the glue, they're your conduit to every single other consultant, you know, they can literally tell you exactly all the consultants that you need. Pull the team together, it sometimes even develop manage it for you. Like and have knowledge in all those other disciplines to make it work to see when something doesn't let the smell right. So they've got to have it, they've got no a little bit about everything to have a bird's eye view. So yeah, by far, which is why we've always said, you know, go meet for a few town planners, go pay for their time. And and and work out who you want to work with because they bought, especially in the planning, I mean in the subdivision space, the cake and salt and baffa agree. It's happening. We're running a two day property development event at the luxury, laundry and hotel in burly heads here on the go coast, and we want you there because the property development is even on your radar. This will save you years of guessing over two days, you'll see how deals are actually found, how people fund them without having to be rich, and how projects go from the idea to actually being built. You'll hear from people doing it right now with special guest Michael Matusik, Australia's leading property analyst and commentator on what the market is actually doing right now. Funding specialist showing you how money actually flows, you'll leave knowing what your next move should be. Check the link below, grab your early birth tickets now, and let's start developing. What what does the day to day look like for Murray for a town planner like you, what does a day look like in your world? Answering a lot of phone calls, responding to a lot of emails. So we've got a team of probably 12 punters in total, different sorts of capacities. I guess my day to day now is a lot different than what it looked like when I was a senior planner or a town planner writing reports, it's more coming up with overarching strategies, responding to people's queries and concerns, picking up my phone, which does take up a lot of the day, you know, some days the market 50 phone calls. So it's about trying to delegate the day-to-day work out to my planners, which is a challenge in its own right. And that's the challenge that I've got right now is trying to let go enough so that the business can keep moving and I can keep providing the service that you guys deserve as paying clients. It's funny because like doesn't matter whether you're doing a duplex or a one into two or two into four or someone like Shannon Carson doing larger projects, you feel like you're the most important one. Like as soon as you sign that engagement letter and you pay the deposit, you're like, that's it, man. And like I just did this with with the architect who we know and all work with quite well Stewart and I said to him the other day because I've got a DA going with you guys at the moment. And I said, listen, we just settled on the property now. So it's real and I'm going to start becoming painful. So just so we understand, right, you just let me you let me know when I'm pushing the boundaries because I'm going to want answers and I'm that guy that like I push, I'm like, I push projects, I push people. Yeah, yeah, but the thing is like this usually this squeaky wheel gets the oil, right, but you have to do it in a in a respectful way at the same time. You know, like I we we got some information on Friday at like four o'clock and straight away I'm I'm ringing Murray and you know not many people after four o'clock pick up their phone in Australia on Friday. Not many people pick up their phone in business on Friday in Australia at all never mind after four o'clock. And we all know that in business because Friday is usually the phones the most quiet. I think that comes down to being respectful like with their time and like with their engineer I call him all the time every second day probably when we've got a project on. But I'm not hassling him for answers that are in the drawings or in the planning approval and stuff like that. So you've got to go back and make sure you're using the information you have before you're hassling them. Yeah, as well. And they can see that. Yeah, bring him up with a question and you tell them the problem and you've had a look at what they've provided or I agree. And it's creating a relationship right like this is something that's so important that I feel and not not enough people do and I feel like it's something that I've just organically done over the years is you know pretty good at relationship building. And like with Murray as an example I can go hey I've got this block of land or I've got this can you check this out for me and next you know that day or the next day hey I've checked it out you can't do this we had this recently right three four weeks ago I'm like. Fuck I got a deal I think this is this is a good one right my mates going to get the form six is going to sell it and I'm going to buy it Murray surely this has to go through it's already built this way you know and within half an hour to an hour Murray's like don't you know I wouldn't touch it with a tempo pole. And I should have the device that was it's it's it's real right so you're guiding us through these basically avenues where if you go down the wrong road it can cost you a lot of money. But what I like about Murray and not just Murray about you know anyone that you do work with that relationship relationship is important as long as you keep feeding them work and you keep feeding them business. They're not going to charge you for every five minutes like that's that's where the relationship comes from right like you're up front and go hey this is what it is I want you to do some DD on this can you give me a quote or. Hey that's fine just send it through to me I'll do a 10 minute rundown put it in an email and let me know if that's going to go ahead or not right so I think that's very important can you walk us through. Like a typical development application process from from a planning perspective for people that don't know they're fairly new to this once you're once you're engaged. What's the process I know this is a big question but if you just take us from the beginning and you're okay well here we go I've been engaged letter has been signed the positive has been paid. How does that work from the due process it will vary depending on the project as you you guys well know and at what point I'm engaged so just to pick up on what you said before I would say. Try to knock those issues on the head early on and if it's a lemon say in no uncertain terms it's a lemon. That you can talk through the project we're going through now if you like because you've been a part of that yeah for the DD yeah so that's a good example so yeah if you're starting right at the start from from DD so usually I'd get a phone call similar to what you're talking about and it will. It'll be well I'm looking at this site you know I've done a little bit of background on it and we think we can make it stack and. What you got feeling what's your initial thought so on the fly or usually trying to bring the property up on local state government mapping kind of work out the base details and give you some you know pretty high level advice from the get go. For that one that's. That's an interesting project with a lot of background a lot of history to it so. Where I'd usually start is although I haven't actually been physically to that site where I'd usually start is bringing up things like the contours having a look at the slope of the land bring it up on Google maps like actually looking at the site and getting a feel for what it is that we're doing. Yeah from their workout zoning what the constraints are what the you know the the map overlays so the constraints that local and state government have put on the land and try and really kind of nut out what can and can't be done from a planning perspective with that land so. That's kind of step number one for that because it had such a complex approval history my next protocol was council's online records pd online on the gold coast and then try to. Understand how the how what's led to this lot being in being the way that is like it was the balance land from a from a larger subdivision so trying to understand. How that or townhouse development how that development was sequenced out what happened to lead up to that parcel lamp being created. And as well for that one in particular I was trying to poke holes and I'm really trying to knock it over for you guys because. Same thing I don't need to buy a lemon and so I'd start running all those things to ground look at the operational works look at the conditioning try and work out you know if there are unfulfilled conditions with that one there was an overarching. Court approval so some of those conditions of the court approval applying perpetuity to the land so yeah really trying to get to the bottom of the development history to find a fault to be honest that that's really what I was trying to is pick a fault and to date I have been able to do it which is kind of good for you guys very good I suppose but. And the next stage is from here will be well we're going to a pre-logic meeting obviously we're trying to clean some information and a council because they've got that background as well they've been involved in the whole development process up until now so. The guys in council with personal experience on that particular lot trying to get as much information as we can from that meeting from there if you guys decide to pull the trigger well it's the clock sticking like Eric saying you know you you paying holding costs all of a sudden so what we really want to do is take it from. Concept through to DA as quickly as possible but in that process also design the development in a way that is going to be feasible for you guys so we can't just. Rush it through at at lightning pace and miss critical things that that need to be done so to begin with old recommend a consultant. Horses for courses different consultants for different projects so yeah for that one obviously civil engineers pretty critical. Some high level advice from ecologists although the ecology issues have been largely dealt with as part of the overarching development. Designer because we're going to build form and a subdivision design is pretty critical. And I know we've really got a designer on board now and so basically between the consultant team that there's others that are missing as well geotech etc. From there between the consultant team try and nut out what the key issues are for that it's going to be getting stormwater to fall in the right direction civil engineers going to be critical. How far do you go like in that initial period when you're someone's coming in green like should they be doing geotech reports should they be getting survey or you happy with lighter to start off with like if it hadn't had any of that background history. How far should people go I suppose I suppose it's one of the pieces string but like if it was your site to what degree would you be going. Yeah good question and I think it depends on how much time you've got in your DD as well. So you know you try and get it to a point and then at some point as you guys would know you have to take a punt to a degree. Yeah if it was my site I'll be trying to get levels accurate levels and feed them to my civil engineer to do a concept earthworks plan because I know that's going to be the key issue for that one is and you guys already know that now so. Yeah I would try and get a savagery out there on day one I would try and get some accurate levels if I didn't have them already and I would feed that to my to my civil designer. Yeah well people need to realize here in this property development space is you know Shannon Carson I don't know this the lot you're I think I know a lot you're talking about but I'm not sure if you have it on your you know DD or or what not but a lot of this comes under DD right and there's a lot of costs that you're going to be incurring hoping that you get the outcome that you want to then go and in go unconditional on a site. And there's a lot of times where you're going to be spending thousands of dollars upfront engaging consultants engage engaging geotechs and civil engineers and and town planners and whatnot and you're not going to get the answer that you're going to want and one thing you can't get is emotional because just because you already spend 10 grand and you 10 grand in and you want to try and go you know what let's just get it anyways we've already spent 10 grand that's the worst thing you can do. And why are you spending the 10 grand right so some you're actually wanting someone to tell you know like that's why you're spending the 10 grand how much of you say correct you don't want I mean you don't want to be lied to right. Yep and I want to come back to a question around that right what what are some of these roadblocks and where where does it go wrong but you mentioned a few things while you're explaining this process. One of them is pre-Logement what does that actually mean for the people that don't understand what a pre-Logement is what what that is in tail what happens in a pre-Logement meeting with a council. Yeah so it's just exactly that prior to logical seeking advice from council. So generally depending on what the constraints of the land are council would have different sections involved different specialists so. People think of councils one big beast really but it's not it's broken into you know a geotech section and you know civil engineering section architecture section. So you would put forward generally we would write a brief report and a plan conceptual plan depending on how progress we are with the development and we'd ask some some pretty targeted questions usually it's only one two three four questions. And depending on what those questions are council would bring along their specialist team relevant to whatever questions we're asking so if it's got access issues they might bring their traffic engineer. Likewise if it's built form they'll bring the city architect to comment on the concept design so it's really getting information from council about a development project before it's lodged. And is it literally like a round table meeting you and the report plus three or four of you know go co cities consultants and you basically negotiating going so is this going to go through will it would you accept this. There's a high chance yeah yeah it looks okay all right how about you geotech is it literally yeah to agree and there's no guarantee it's still probability caress because that's one thing that can never guarantee. That's right and you've got to remember like these guys they might only get a couple of hours they've got limited resources like we do so they might only get a couple of hours. To look at a development if that before they go into the pre-lodgement meeting as well so I guess there's a limit in the in the certainty that they can provide yeah during a pre-lodgement because they're not going through the whole assessment process so when do you recommend not to go to a pre-lodgement because I know sometimes you know what the answer is going to be they're just going to quote the book back to you and it is pushing the boundaries and it's sometimes you're just wasting your time and money so. I guess for us we want the pre-lodgement to find out what if there's deal killers if we need to drop the site all the things that aren't the same like we had one where we didn't know about the it was traffic allocations for our site and we physically couldn't develop it to the level we wanted to because until a certain road was upgraded they're like when I'll hang more development there's the right zoning all the overlays were fine. Everyone else tick the boxes and if we hadn't had that pre-lodgement meeting a guy across the road dropped 26 million dollars on a site and he can't develop it yeah because it or ticked all the boxes and it looked great so when when do you recommend the clients that the pre-lodgements probably a waste of money and we should just log straight away yeah that that's a good question I think it comes back to council having limited time as well so if we've got a usually we will go I'll put it in a different way. Usually we would go to a pre-lodgement meeting if we have targeted questions usually technical questions that we want answered or otherwise if we really don't know like it if we just don't know and our client isn't willing to take that sort of risk then we'll go and hear it from the horses mouth but there are a lot of times where I probably wouldn't go to a pre-lodgement meeting. So say for you know your average run-of-the-mill dual occupancy for instance we know what the provisions are we've got examples where it's been approved before we don't have like real technical information that we want to glean from council in that situation I wouldn't go I would just consider it to be probably a waste of time. On our side on council side it's probably better just to losh that application there are other circumstances as well but in an out of high level that's that's it in a nutshell. How do you generally find council all the governing bodies and authorities appetite towards development for changed over the last few years they're getting more proactive. Yeah I'd say they would you see council it's a push and pull because at the end of the day they're they're working for the community so you know the state government has a real interest say for housing right now in providing additional housing. And I would say that in general southeast Queensland Council's are coming around to that slowly but there is still that element of you know needing to tick the box and needing to maintain consistency. So it can be frustrating to be honest at times when you're arguing over a hundred mill and you know you clients paying holding costs and you sort of just saying well come on just let us build so scenarios like that can be pretty frustrating. But we have to remember they do a pretty difficult job as well they're trying to balance community interests and they've got people from the community calling them up and saying well why do you approve this here and you know why did you do this isn't this so. You got that you got the nimbus on one hand not in my backyard and you've got the pitchforks and the other hand gone wise housing so that's right that's right there they're meeting the sandwich trying to try to balance that's exactly right yeah as a way I would say yeah like overall they're. Most councils that I deal with are coming around a little bit more just because of the urgency like we just need housing that badly and there's that much pressure coming on local governments to provide it not enough I would say overall back when you're in council is there such thing as a. An application that would land in your lap when you'd be like you know wasn't properly made or the developer's already rubbed you up the wrong way or the the town plan is gone into hard like is there is a such thing as a badly made application in your eyes like what when you sit on the side of the fence you know what are the what are the do's and don't set you know that's need to be making sure their consultants are following the boxes I suppose yeah certainly like you you can pick it straight away like if if they've been if there's been little effort put into an application. You know you you can see straight away you can see straight through it so I would say make sure you've got the critical components make sure that you're covering off on the main issues via. Town punting reporting but also specialist reporting get the key issues but then there's a balancing act between that and not spending too much money on your consultancy you don't actually really need so yeah 100% you can see it if someone lodges a dodgy application you can even the way that it's presented makes a difference because you know if I'm assessing development and I know this particular consultancy generally puts. Pretty well made well put together applications in front of me then I'm more likely whether it's consciously or subconsciously to say okay you know this is a so and so application you know it's probably going to have the main components that I need to assess it so it does even though it's some it's a case by case under legislation there is still that. Probably subconscious thinking about different applications so it's important but I'll say. You don't want to spend too much money at the same time so it depends what it is so behind the curtain though accounts well how do you how do you navigate the great was so much of. The approvals like it's if you've got an impact day and you're getting that extra lot or you're trying to get your site cover a bit higher yeah like behind the curtain when when your plan is a certain you're talking to your head planner potentially if you're the assessing planner yeah how do you work out like how do we just give it to him like it where's the line because it like and what are those discussions look like in council are they. Are they saying because you've done the RFI and they've said we only want you to do 60% site cover or we want you to and you put it back at 63% so they just decline it or do they like how do they do they look at it and go well just let that one slide or well I think what he's trying to really ask is is there such thing as brown paper bags I think is that the question that you try. You guys are trying to get me in trouble I said I was going to try and get you rolled up see how do they how do they do all that line because you see stuff go through then you go in the next time and say well I got 63% I want to see there's how well just because we did that over there doesn't mean we're going to do that here or we made that mistake over there we're not going to do it again like precedence can be a dangerous thing to hang your head on sometimes yeah it's not always a defined box either there is gray in there. Where it's not always exactly 60% or this and that there is areas of gray in there where it's subjective that does depend on the site that's right and you never actually see to exactly the same you see a lot of really really similar applications and the converse like there's an ability for counsel proof things on balance as well so maybe you're pushing on site cover but you know the other sort of built form provisions that counts would usually look for building height and you set backs away. You set backs away presents to the street neighbors and things like that maybe site covers high the provision that relates to site cover at least on the Gold Coast talks about landscape private open space areas so you know is there a good balance of landscaping there and it is case by case under legislation but you have to remember that there's people like me going through planning approvals and saying to counsel will you approve this over here why can't we have this over here so it's about if your counsel you still have to maintain some sort of consistency. So to be honest it is about looking at what's been approved what's not been approved before whether that they want to make that mistake if they perceive it that way again and sometimes that's that's something that you hear from counsel will we made that mistake over here we don't want to do it again because it's a performance based system at the end of the day that the system allows for that gray area and to try and navigate through the call provisions and find a balanced sort of outcome so a little bit a little bit of B it is site by site but you can bet your bottom dollar of these things go to appeal which you know people have appeal rights post approval or refusal of a DA well the courts are going to be looking at precedent every day of the week so you know and it needs to be equitable at the same time so it's about well if you're pushing on site cover what are you giving you know is it a really great landscaping out outcome to the street or you know visual amenity that's one of the week we have one that literally didn't have us on anything and the local MP council were in the RFI said yep all looks good and then the local MP said we don't like it I met with him he said I said what's the problem I like what show me where we're going wrong is like I was just so happy so I don't I've never liked it yeah it was like we comply with like all of your regulations I said which we spit I guess I actually have no idea what I was going to do it again. So I actually haven't read it and when we did a team refusal we sat in there and he was pretty charming with the head of planning as I thought this is going to be a tricky one to get through and they didn't have us anything I said well visual amenity it was already approved as a 22 lot townhouse like we will take it down to 11 lots or decreasing the density and I like will fight on visual amenity I was like that's just bullshit. Yeah we didn't have the funds this is an early project for us like do we take it to court so like visual amenity such a gray you get your visual amenity expert yeah I get my visual amenity expert and we hash it out and we end up caving and just reduce some lots and they got they want because we were just babies and we didn't know where to where to fight and we didn't have the cast of the eye for the lockable in the end because we lost three blocks out of the project because they want to see less buildings less density on the block. But they allowed to lock you and see lots so we in the end it was a 14 buildings in the end or 13 buildings. Yeah so it was going to be 14 with duplexes on for them and we're not with 11 with duplex on it but where they they gave us better to 800 square meter blocks and so it still would have looked the same from a detached duplex from the road then if it had been a 400 square meter block now it's an 800 with a duplex. It looked it looked exactly the same but I'll like one you know I was just set there's a couple of things that frustrating me a lot that's where like I got a question here because it's gray right but how much. Eagle comes into play in this right how much like that 100 mil or like how much is it job you know justification in regards to just literally someone with authority sitting on a panel within a council and we're not. We're not just pointing at go Coast City Council because that's the main region that you work in let's talk just broadly right all councils is is that a real thing where you're going. They're just not approving it because the guy just wants to be powerful today because you know his wife feel that him this morning and it feels like a piece of shit like you know what I mean like is it is that a real thing because I know it's a real thing in. The business world is that a real thing when when you're dealing with someone that because again when when a lot of a lot of these people like you said it's hard work. And they're literally sitting there on a wage dealing with a lot of shit every day and if they're having a bad day let me tell you they probably don't want you to have a great day and that's every and that's anyone in general i'm not pointing fingers at any council right because to be honest the go Coast City Council is pretty. Proactive in my opinion with regards to development versus you know new south well i haven't done anything in New South Wales but from what i've been told by these guys and other people very very painful but how much of that comes into play like actually you know what it's not a good day calling Bob today i'm an await until tomorrow and i might get the answer that i want yeah well you dealing with personalities at the end of the day. And i mean Murray as a punter not Murray as a town planning professional old agree with that you know to to a degree i suppose no one's perfect no one no one can you know just remain completely unbiased like a robot so you're dealing with personalities at the end of the day 100% it comes into play. And you mentioned one thing earlier as well when you're talking about the pre-Lodgement and i think this is something that cannot be overlooked by anyone you quickly mentioned looking on sites looking on sites like pd online we know what pd online is but explain to the people that don't know what pd online is and why they should know what that is and whatever in relation to what it is in w a victoria. What actually is it and why is it so good yeah so different names across different states and local government areas but effectively it's council's online record system which is publicly available. So goal course for instance will go back to around 2006 and they'll have all the approvals or refusals all the applications over that land listed you can click into them you can have a look at the approval or refusal documents. It's critical like especially like a site like the one we're just talking about where it's got a huge and complex development history well you want to know what that development history is because you want to know if anything still applies to the land or or if the land has an approval so say you've got a real estate agent selling land. As they often do and say you know DA approval for this this and this where you could go on pd online and that approvals lapsed you know it's not a not not a valid approval anymore yeah so it's a critical tool for you searching land I agree and the thing is what I love about it is everything is on public record so it doesn't matter what type of DA whether it's. Duplex or whether it's 300 units on the Esplanade in surface paradise and has all the documents and all the back and forth so all the what we we sit here and say RFI's RFI's for those of you guys are not RFI is requests for information from council so it has all those requests from information on what the requesting then the email back with the information and then saying yes it's good enough no it's not good enough I also need this. And what I love about it as well is all the consultants are on there so you can find out who the architect was who the town planner they're getting sneaky now with usually as the town planners information but a lot of times you can find out who the entity is that that owns that block of land as an example right so you could if you want to do a little bit of digging and getting contact with them for whatever reason like we did this recently on pd online that's where we found out who there was a consultant who the existing consultant was on a property that I was looking at that Murray was like it's a lemon and I'm like well it did get refused back in you know 2020 and this was the town planner and I'm like do you know him and Murray is like yes I'll send you his number so you could double check it right I trusted Murray but I'm like I want to hear from this guy on because he's they've actually been engaged so he actually want to counsel with it right and I rang him he's like dead in the water and I'm like okay that's like double exclamation mark right even though the first one was good enough for me but it was just like let that go so yeah very very important pd online I recommend everybody just do some digging that has has any interest in probably develop whatsoever application track as development free education a source for sure another question I have we have a good friend in Melbourne and he does a lot of small scale developments and he he's an architect he'll know if he's watching this I know exactly what I'm talking about and he's big on storytelling right storytelling from a design perspective and storytelling from a sales perspective how important do you feel storytelling is when you're working on a development to get that buy in yeah it is important it depends on the scale of the project and how far outside of the box you're actually operating so like particularly if you're going for you know a first principles argument it is your your planning report in effect is telling the story of the development and why it's an appropriate development for that particular site so yeah the more you can sort of lead into that and importantly back it up with facts and evidence and specialist reporting it is important especially if you you're doing things that aren't you know you might be trying to go for a like we were talking about before a subdivision on rural zone land for instance which is generally a pretty big no no but you know if if you can tell that story if you can sort of say well you know number one we need housing and here's that quantified here's how many houses we need here's our shortfall in meeting a housing targets it doesn't have physical constraints you know it has these properties you can communicate that really well through your reporting yeah it's it's important but you know if you're looking at a smaller scale site and maybe it's a medium density res zone land for instance and you're trying to build a two flakes well it's less about storytelling it's more about just trying to get the job done yeah correct yes and I guess it depends on what stage you are in your development journey right like it knows like rural you know zoning areas like you're you're really taken a punt yeah in my opinion so if it's your first rodeo it's not something I would definitely recommend because you could be sitting there right with a block of land that you paid some money for that you can't do anything on and if you're heavy hitter that might be okay but if this is your first one and it's your first chance and you put all your eggs of one basket you know you're probably not going to be doing much development after that you probably want a pretty long settlement or some options of bits and pieces with on your example with the rural zoning block can you do you have to do a rezoning before you can do that or can you do it as like an impact D.A. are you looking to make sure it's in the urban footprint like what if people are seeing a big rural block and across the road is low-density residential for example what's the process to actually find out if you if you if you own it or you're looking for that you know potential to swap it over what are you what's the process you're going for to work out which way you got to go yeah well good that you mentioned the urban footprint because that's number one that's critical it's prohibited development to subdivide land into suburban allotments if you're outside of the urban footprint so that's in southeast Queensland so they've got the southeast Queensland regional plan which has the urban footprint and it basically tells you the extent of where development is anticipated for the city generally so yeah number one is it in the urban footprint well if it is that's a tick because at a really high level at some point the state is essentially designating that land for future development number two I'll be looking at the physical constraints of the land so you know if you've got a rural zoning land and it's really well located you surrounded by urban or suburban development but it's full of trees and their native trees and native mature trees well nine times out of 10 you sort of put a line through it and keep looking likewise you know any other magic constraint so number one yeah it's in the urban footprint number two what's its constraints number three have a look at the is there a good first principles planning argument what's the availability of infrastructure what's surrounding it what type of development is occurring in that area so at a pretty high level that's there probably the main factors I would say what kind of time frames I know it's a long-winded question but have you done many or do they take two years three years five years like what's the what's the yeah I mean in different local government areas yeah we've done a few I wouldn't say that they're super common because it's you're thinking outside the box you know you're working outside the box depending on the way you lodge it and going back to your previous question yeah you could lodge an impact accessible application against the scheme if that was the case you'd be assessing it against in the scenario we're talking about rural zone provisions which talk about having really large lots having you know a rural type visual metadata outcome or you could there's another another mechanism called a preliminary approval to override the punting scheme which in effect is changing elements of the punting scheme to try and changing it in a way that enables your development but for councils to agree to that first of all there's a 30 day public notification period secondable yeah I mean a prelim can take a year two years so it's a it's not a short exercise because council have to be comfortable that what they're doing stacks up from the first principles punting perspective so yeah anywhere from a year three years yeah okay what about what about interstate stuff like I know a lot of planners once they've done a few projects like the planner yeah I know good friends of ours that use you a lot for their childcare centers across Australia you're you're doing stuff from all around all around different states yeah what's the other side of the argument back to erics comments before about having those connections and relationships in councils where when should you just use a local town planner that you know knows the people intimately and that the planning scheme intimately and when do you think it's okay to use a planner but yeah Australia wide like what are the pros and cons of what would you recommend if you're you know based on what you know yeah and and someone was starting out horses for courses I would say generally if you're doing smaller scale development you're trying to build a granny flat you're trying to you know build a Jewplex you're trying to do a splitter things like that really kind of fine scale planning where I would say that it's really beneficial to have people that operate often in that local government area who know the scheme back to front to tick those boxes some mostly larger scale clients that we have prefer to deal with one consultancy across the country we spend a lot of time getting across different planning instruments across the country for for guys like that but you're right we don't have a contacting every single local government council across the country so I would say certainly for this small scale stuff I would recommend finding a local town planner and preferably by referral if you can yeah that's not bad yet where do you think the current planning scheme needs urgent reform with what's going on with the housing crisis because it's quite frustrating when you drive by you know there's still a fair bit of land around the annual Gold Coast is stuck between mountains and an ocean and I know it would be quite frustrating for land developers specifically you know guys like Shannon and Carson that are doing these large scale projects to not be able to develop this land when we're trying to solve the problem of housing issues and then rejecting applications in your opinion yeah where do you think it's going wrong? It's a tough question what I would say is we're at the point now where it's quite urgent to provide housing and like I said local governments to be quite frank don't have as much of an interest in providing house as sure they've got housing targets under their scheme they don't have as much of an interest in providing houses as say the state and federal governments do not as much pressure on them I would say so in my opinion the state probably needs to in the short term so in my opinion we're pursuing utopia by pursuing utopia we're creating a dystopia like our office is in Southport we're looking at the amount of homeless people in our parks they're like I'll walk to work and I'll see someone sleeping in their car you know I think right now we need to cut the bullshit and prop the private industry up whether that's fire incentives whether that's fire the state coming over the top and sort of saying well you know we need this many houses and the state facilitated development was a good example of that which is a recent issue which I actually think they've shut down now for some reason but I think it's initiatives like that and certainly incentivising developers like people think of developers as these greedy buddy you know fat units sitting in their ivory tower counting stacks of cash no it's you know you guys are closer to your to your typical developer that I would generally meet than than that and a developer could be mum and dad a developer could be you know just your average punter so I would say we need to prop up the private industry because the government doesn't have a very good track record of actually building houses I think that's another misconception people actually people think that the government can provide this magical cure and build all these houses where if the government actually built the houses they would work out that expensive that you know it just wouldn't be viable the key is to in the short term prop up the private industry and make it more viable for developers to develop and get out of the way and let it happen it's a supply and demand is a big big part of that as well like just matter what we're talking about dirt or we're talking about t-shirts so I guess the is there a is it too simplistic to just say you know just go rezone heat more dirt and you know and developers will get to work you know in the areas that you know be them being more proactive with rezoning instead of waiting for a developer to come to them and try and do a rezoning and try and you know spend these two four or five years make it the thing with a lot of developers if counts as a we don't want you to go over there and it's certainly we just won't bother but if the as long as there's like areas where yeah we can actually go and develop land because you know reality is like we got acreage land at the moment and there's no other acreage land like we'd basically name our price but then if there's if there's five more this acreage there's real residential use own blocks all through Logan for example it's it's like park park living precinct so you can't subdivide it and you got I think it's park residential where you actually subdivide it and there's like opposite letters to every single one and there's not that many out there so like with a stroke of a pen you could just chart you know change a lot of those you know real residential some of them one of them was an old turf farm there's not a tree on it it's like the perfect site and then here we are on an older prove knocking down some trees that was done six years ago and we can't do the site next door it doesn't have any trees on it and you just scratch your hair down what the hair yeah look I come across things like that all of the time and I'm just scratching my head wise and this you know zone differently in the urban footprint etc it's complex I suppose you know whether the infrastructure's there or not you know maybe there are constraints that aren't obvious on the surface and probably what I'd say as well is that the southeast at least in the southeast the regional plan anticipates like a 70-30 mix of 70% infield development 30% you know urban expansion so there is a push to try and keep our densities within our cities which also has its benefits you know you can provide public transport less car dependency and a whole range of other issues but yeah 100% there are a lot of there are a lot of properties that I come across where I'm scratching my head just thinking wise and this is zoned differently it's a it's a hard process to change there's a lot of hoops to jump through for the state and local governments to actually change the zoning or the urban footprint designation a lot of things that people aren't talking about as well and obviously the cost of construction gone through the roof so a lot of things aren't stacking up and two councils to their defense obviously they need to do schools we will talk and we sit down for principle the other day they're like do you know how much it costs to build a school now like it's not feasible like like the people like there was a there's a bigger state not far from here and they've got a designated area for a school they can't get a school to take it on because the cost to constructions through the roof so I can see the benefit of doing that the problem is the built form especially the high-rise stuff is only working on the front where you're selling a unit for four million dollars it doesn't really solve the problem so I think probably that you know medium density mix you can put a townhouse behind you existing house or reducing the lot size you think that's probably an easy win for cats or potentially but then not everyone's going to be happy for that you can't please everybody well that that's right and like what frustrates me most is when you do have a missing middle type development a genuine infield development you might have a few hundred square metres couple hundred square metres left over in your backyard and you want to try and construct a you know another small house there when councils get in the way of things like that that's what really frustrates me to be quite honest because it aligns with all of state's goals and and council's goals and then we might be arguing over a few hundred mill setback or something like that that really hurts especially on the smaller scale developments when my clients can't cop the holding costs of arguing back and forth with council for two months over a couple hundred a couple hundred mill setback but that couple hundred mill to them might be the difference in a viable project and project that's not viable so yeah trying to try to balance timing versus outcome is a major challenge and yeah I would say broadly speaking it's becoming more and more difficult just because of construction costs and the life so yeah they're any specific red tape things that if you had the magic one you would change or tweak or remove quite a lot probably what I would hell and hell and we got what I'll probably say to begin with is we need to look at how much it actually caught we need to look at bringing the cost of development down and whatever our authorities whether it be local state federal government can do to bring down the cost of development whether that be trying to push out approvals quicker whether that be incentivising or you know waving infrastructure charges for instance or contributing to infrastructure charges for particular types of development because keep in mind our household compositions are are changing as well so there's going to be more and more demand for smaller type housing outcomes so you know even in the short term look at incentivising those types of things I just think anything we can do to cut the timeframe down helps anything that we can do to cut development costs helps the issue is they're doing nothing in my opinion like I know developers I've talked to a couple of them over last couple weeks one the builder developer one's another development and they're literally taking a year off because they can't make things work yeah there's only so much you can squeeze yeah right you can only you can't squeeze blood out of a rock and the issue is there's not enough incentive to keep doing what we need to do in this space to actually solve the problem like I see what these guys do like to some of the deals that these guys get over the line are unheard of if it wasn't for that they wouldn't be able to do them either because they're not going to take the risk ongoing yeah I'm going to spend three million dollars on this block of land to hopefully maybe you know no I want to do it but I want to take a 12 month option on it and reduce the risk but those are few and far between they're becoming harder and harder and harder yeah come by and when you start hearing builders and developers saying I'm taking a year off right it's not just because they're they're caching in and they're just not going to do anything they'd rather go and do projects and make money because there's an opportunity cost but I feel like local state federal governments are not doing enough infrastructure charges taxes yeah everything just keeps going up and up and up and up and like I say over and over and over and over again it all gets built into the price because these guys myself were all working off of feasibility which is a fancy word for a profit loss to see actually how much money is there at the end of the day and they say they're green or it's red and majority of them are becoming less green and more red and there's less builders building and there's and you look at some of these even bigger developers right like you you know there's a problem in the industry when you have large scale builders chasing these guys for land smoothing them taking them I need your land because they can't even find their own right because it doesn't stack up and yeah to me it's it's a massive problem I think it's a problem that we're going to have coming in for quite some time and yeah I think the local governments need to do something about it in regards to incentivizing somehow whether it's you know incentivized you know 50% you know rebate back on infrastructure charges for those of the we talk about infrastructure for charges for those people that don't know what an infrastructure charges it's basically just a payment to council it's a payment to government to say hey I'm allowing you to do this and for for that I want X amount to do that and we're going to take that money and we're going to put it towards roads and parks and traffic lights and these types of things which I'm all for right but it's starting to get a little bit a little bit at least at least head in the right direction like come back to what I would change in the stroke of a pen most southeast Queensland councils have moved towards introducing infrastructure charges for secondary dwellings since 2023 when they changed the definition allowed them to be rented separately so you know to try and capitalize on that there's nothing provided for that charge arguably yeah very there's no title there's no extra title there's normally no extra sewer connection yep are you tapping into what's already there you might put another water meter in in some circumstances which you have to do yourself anyway it's it's supposed to be for draw on council networks road and whatever but you're right like to put a granny flat out the back cast will get a laugh because I get railed up about all that all the times we literally put in the water main the sewer the power of roads and then we give it to them so and a jacks can rent it out for forever in a day they can charge water through it coming forever in a day and pay cancel fees for the sewer main that we've put in and then we pay him for that contribution at the end of it which orders get handed on to the buyer at the end yeah yeah it's like our council application fees like for one another day they're sent as invoices 130-thousand dollars for them to assess it and then you've got your operational works assessment on top of that and then you then you finally get approved and then you celebrate like now send us the Q leave you know invoice and that was 25-thousand dollars for that before they were actually give you the approval list is before you've even started on then you got all the other you know GST and tax and business that all built into it and like you say it all just flows on because these big greedy developers whether you're selling hats or you're selling dirt you can get the loan if you get it doesn't have a 20% margin and that's really most people are sitting around that space and for the risk that you're taking on when you're putting in all that the money hoping that the market's going to go up because it does go down the other way and people don't there's not much sympathy for the developers when they go belly up it's a business at the end of the day you're not going to see a McDonald's open up on the corner and go backwards yeah and this is why I love talking like we've had polys on and stuff like that talking about you know there's 40-50% of a new bill this taxes and charges and and then you have people that just want to argue that's a load of rubbish and it doesn't matter what the hell it is because at the end of the day it's built in and guess what you're paying for it at the end whether you're buying the property or whether you're renting the property because as the property goes up in value your rent is going to be going up in value then that's just the way it is yeah so either we sit here and we can argue in the comments which people love to do right or we can try and come up with solutions and talk about these things and go hey local government hey state government hey federal government how do we actually solve this problem right because the problem is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger and and and people are going to get our starting to get pissed off and they're making different types of decisions that I've never seen before you know like leaving the country like that that's ridiculous and and one of that one of those reasons is because cost of how like in my opinion everyone in their own right should be able to own their own home at some point either it takes you 20 years to pay off the mortgage 30 years if that's what you want and you want the white pick of fence you should be able to do that right on an average income you should be able to buy an average house yes on an average income right now you're buying shit yep legit you're not buying an average house you need a great income to buy an average house right now and and that's an issue it's scary like I've got a couple of kids and I want them at some point to be able to buy their own home and geez the direction we're heading at the moment it's not looking likely and and the outcomes it's sort of we talked about it before well what does that lead to you know the amount of people sleeping in their cars and sleeping in parks diversity and and and you know over densifying houses you might have a couple of families living in one house leads to unlawful behavior and things that the authorities don't like so yeah it's a it's a it's a major major issue and one that I think about a lot yeah yeah you know that there's so many people all you got to do is dry around the streets and you can see the people that there's four or five people living in a house renting a room illegally right we're not talking about shared housing where they're doing it in certain areas and it's properly approved and fire regulation and all this stuff and the reason is because they can't afford to rent anywhere else like a son I haven't made that that's that's renting out studio apartments in a newer building like I'm talking 25 30 square meter no with no car park no laundry is 550 a week like a 550 a week is 30 grand a year after tax income but like you ain't fit in a family in there that that's that's a single person and they're renting like hawk cakes yep and this is where we need to start solving solving these issues and that's why I'm very very big on discussing these issues obviously I know we have to be careful of times you know obviously you know talking to you about this and because you're dealing with council on a daily basis and it's it's not the counselor's fault it's not the person that's looking at the DA application like he's got he's got a piece of paper that tells of what he can or she can can and can't do like it's not their their issue you know what I mean they're just getting paid to do a job yeah and it's not worth us getting frustrated at them it's just we need to get constructed they're working within the parameters that they're given you know essentially yeah so it's yeah I think it needs to be looked at more holistically and and to be honest I think the state needs to come across the top or or the federal government and start propping it up and making it more viable to develop what a developer is going to do if it becomes more viable to develop yeah they're going to develop more yes right you know it's not rocket science not and I think some people just think that the government can weigh its magic wand and then start building houses it doesn't work like that it's the private industry that's going to build the houses and that it's a private industry that's going to solve the problem so why are we still pointing fingers at development developers and calling them the enemy doesn't make any sense yeah so just on that before we wrap up for the mum and for the mum dad something that's the starting out where do you see most mum dads go wrong like I know a lot of people get to the end of their day and go oh it doesn't stack up so do you have any suggestions for any budding developers out there of you know things to look out for or to you know when they're looking at us or before they pull the trigger or yeah one hundred percent I would say to begin with don't keep on your consultants to start with because you if you're fresh you can employ someone to tell you what the issues are with your property but if you don't spend the appropriate amount of money on due diligence you're not going to get that advice and that's where you can really really go wrong probably the other thing I would say is don't bite off more than you can chew you know start small start with something that's generally pretty basic development is a complex game you know maybe start with a you know a house that can have an auxiliary unit or a secondary dwelling built out the back or or a splitter that'd become you few and far between but it starts more and don't shape on your consultants yeah I can second that of I'm playing those mistakes so I'll do you watching your love and share quote yeah support me many of times yeah no that's great I think that yeah that helps a lot of people so I appreciate it it's good talking to the new developers that haven't sat down with a town planner what are some questions that you would recommend them asking when they're interviewing town planners different town planners like sitting down with it just because we say hey we use HPC doesn't need everyone's gonna use HPC right they might want to talk to you they might want to talk to Bob from the other company and Joe over here what are some questions you would ask to kind of we through the ship because like you you got Carson with experience well at the beginning like obviously learning but went to the events surround himself with people and realized he had a very average town planner to the point where the council told him hey you know off the ranger why are you actually using this guy how do people avoid getting into those traps what are some of the questions that you would be asking if you were a new developer putting putting that hat on I think a lot of guy like town planning isn't rocket science it's practical thinking and if you're having a conversation with someone and they don't seem to have a practical mind or have a grasp about what they're talking about well that's obviously an alarm bell I would say as well if you can try and try and operate on referral so try and go to guys who have been referred to you by people that you trust because if you're green you're probably not going to be able to pick the difference that well I know you know to a degree you can you can make your own judgment call but not as well as more experienced developers so ask around who do you guys use you know and try and get a referral I would say make sure your plan is relatively onto it as well because a lot of what can go wrong in development is taking too long paying too much holding costs and if the town planer isn't getting back to you obviously that we're pretty busy keep in mind but you know you can at least delegate it to one of your planners and or say you know I'll be able to look at this tomorrow or by Wednesday or whatever whatever that might be so try and look for guys that are pretty onto it and pretty active and try and make it make up your own mind so the degree you know how as to whether you think that person knows what they're talking about is practical minded is competent for what you're doing but more importantly try and get someone who's referred to you by someone you trust and preferably someone who knows what they're doing yeah what about developer managers development managers and project managers like for if there's enough fat in the deal if someone's new a do you do development management and and what's the difference between a development manager and a project and when should you use each one yeah well a lot of the time like for small scale developer developers you probably don't you don't have money for a project manager you know if you're doing a granny flat out the back and project managers charging six grand a month or whatever it might be to project manager development home I would say use your resources around you and try and you know project manage that type of development once it becomes a little bit more complex that's that's where you would bring in a project manager especially when there's a lot of moving parts and it needs specific skills to be able to actually solve the problem and and and finish the development so yeah I mean like not myself I try and keep try and keep my nose out of the project management side as much as possible but we do have employees in our company who who are project managers and that's what they do so for you for your guys who are starting out you might employ a project manager to break down your conditions for you and give you an idea of when those conditions should be fulfilled who you should be engaging at what point in time that might be sort of a middle down when you when you're first starting out for small scale projects to be able to essentially project manage it yourself because at the end of the day you are the developer yeah not spending too much money on your project manager that's a great tip because I think well people don't realise they freeze the construction and they're like great we can off we go but the plan ceiling phase and we've had instances where you get the condition of 46 you know oh crap we didn't do that yeah you're fully geared on your loan and you're bleeding yummy and you just say well up for another three months when if you'd if you just been a bit organised you know you would have had that stored by now that's not you know you're holding things it's the hoity end yeah the end where you can lose all your money yes exactly Marie thank you very much for coming on I think it's been a great session and again I've enjoyed working with you and hopefully the boys have the same experience I always hear nothing but good things about you and what HPC does if you guys want to get in contact with Marie go to www.unemployable.com.au/hpcplanting you can get all their details there register your interest and for those of you guys that don't know we also have a free Facebook community if you go on Facebook it's unemployable property and on there every day there's content being uploaded by us there's content being uploaded by the participants in that group as well on their projects different developments we got Shannon and Carson posting and they're all the time real life you know things tips tricks and some some interesting things I just thought about the turtle guy but I'm not going to make them show off but yeah so I'm and it's it's real right it's it's it's relatable and the best thing about it it's free and and there's a lot of value there and as always please like share subscribe and shoot us some comments what did you like what didn't you like and yeah share it around with anyone else that you think it will create value for and we will see you on the next one thanks guys hey there I hope you enjoyed that episode of Unemployable if you'd like to watch another episode just click there