🎙️ Toward Solutions Podcast | Episode 5: Good Reasons and Hypertext with Haesun Moon - Toward Solutions Podcast

Discovering the Simplicity of Solution-Focused Practice Hi son for joining us. I met you at the ASFA conference in Brisbane and when you were coming. Speaker 1 Last year. Speaker 2 Two years? Yeah, it must be two years ago. Wow. OK, crazy. And just leading up to that, I read coaching A-Z because I was like, I'm going to assess this, assess this person out, see if you know, see if I want to go to the conference. And then I really enjoyed such a nice little, a nice little easy to read book and and really inspiring and learn about the, the your work and the DOQ and have found it so useful since then in, in, you know, being able to explain to people kind of, you know, solution focused conversations and A and a visual for that. So firstly, anyway, thanks for that work because it's, it's totally, you know, around here. It's really cool to see people applying it and how they're applying it. So that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. So thanks, thanks for joining us. And yeah, Jason. Speaker 3 Yeah. Look, I love the way you said there, Dionne, how people are applying it because hey son, I remember in Brisbane and I shared the way I was applying it and you said, oh, you're doing some R&D and you know what, I'm still doing some R&D, some RIP off and duplication and I did some yesterday. I had some some school principals and assistant principals in the room and I've created some animations of just people talking and they listen to the animations and they they make a list of. So what did you hear in that? What do you think you might say next? And then we unpack the DOQ and I, it was just such an eye opening experience That is amazing. Or how they are listening to people. So yeah, that is so. Speaker 1 Cool that you're actually doing animations like that. What a great idea. Speaker 3 But it and it's it's it was such an enlightening experience for them. So I'm continuing to RIP off and duplicate, but I will always acknowledge the work that. Speaker 1 You've done on this as. Speaker 3 Well, yes, I found a couple of interesting quotes and I'm going to bring them up in a little while. Unpacking the Elegant Simplicity of Solution-Focused Work But to to jump into our regular questions, what is it that you love about solution focused? Speaker 1 I just love that, how it's simple and sophisticated at the same time. And I love that, that it could be as simple as you want it to be and it's it could be as sophisticated as you. You need it to be. That's what I love. Yeah. What about you? What do you love about it? Speaker 3 We were just talking about the simplicity in in the complexity and thinking about is questions as simple as what's wanted, what's working and what's next. And some situations you get into, people aren't ready to go out into more of a distant future, but what's next or what's working can just help them navigate that that next piece, that near future. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Do you know what about you? What do you what do you love about it? First of all, do you love it? Speaker 2 I don't know, I loves it, loves a strong word, I guess, but I definitely enjoy it. And I think that what I really enjoy is watching when the penny drops for people or they walk out of the room taller because you've had a conversation with them that's, you know, promoted their self determination, promoted their, you know, I can do this. And you see them walk out of a conversation different. And that's. Yeah, I think that's the bit that I really, I definitely enjoy. Enjoy that bit. Speaker 1 That's interesting you say that, because I think these relationships that we have with our practise, I think is it's when when you see the clients actually come to that moment of like, oh, wow, I never thought of it like that or something like that. And I think that was the first attraction for me too, that, you know, when I was using this, I thought this is such an easy way of working with the people for my sake because you know, other modalities that used to have like, I will be like wiped out after a few conversation. I'm done, right? But then this just made it easy for me personally. So then I think initially I just, I'm like, oh, this is so simple. I can do this. But then it feels like over time I really grew this respect for the practise. So the only when you say love is a strong word, I think I really appreciate you saying that because I didn't love it. It was easy, simple. I kind of like practical. So it's like, oh, OK, no problem to really. That respect grew so much as I got to understand it more. So I really appreciate this practise being in my mind and in my practise anyway, the most respectful and probably least intrusive way of working with another person. So yeah, that is so cool. Speaker 2 It's really interesting. So in my context, I supervise a lot of Aboriginal people and it'd be interesting actually in the context of Canada as well. But for me, it gives me a very not being an aboriginal person, it gives me a very safe place to supervise people from. So it's not, you know, I'm not imposing, I'm not, you know, recolonizing. I'm not trying to tell people what to do, but rather promoting their self determination, which are so for me, in that context, I just, it's so, so useful, you know, to have a, have a framework that you, that you can trust is not imposing your, your views or your, you know, your way of, of, of thinking on people. Speaker 1 You know, imposing is a quite fitting, is a fitting word, especially when we look back on these practises that we've had with humans. We've done a lot of things with the humans and then a lot of that has been imposing and diagnosis being 1 of it. We're imposing a framework on people. And then I think in the last what, 20 years or even 30 years, I, I, I will say that we see a lot of composing. So how do we move from like imposing, I am, you know, the expert to composing and then, you know, to make it even better, like solution focus, We do a lot of supposing. So I just really love how we don't even like take ourselves so seriously to like do something together, compose. But how do we really like suppose ourselves as like, OK, I'm going to just put myself out of the equation. At the same time, we are part of the conversation, part of the composition, and we ask our clients all the time suppose. And I find that a beautiful sort of Arc. Speaker 2 What if you, what if you learnt? So you, you, you talked about the, you know, the simplicity and you started out, I guess just appreciating it because it was, I think myself and Jason were having a conversation. Maybe it was yesterday just about, you know, we both kind of walk into rooms of people where we don't really know exactly what's going to happen. And there can be there can be sparks flying, but this this framework gives us AI guess a good confidence in our ability to go in there and and ask questions. So I think that that simplicity, well, definitely for me, gives me good confidence in dealing with some, you know, what would probably be scary situations otherwise. Exploring Dialogic Spaces and the Hypertext of Conversation And anyway, so I'm interested in like, I really like the simplicity. What have you learned about the complexity? Speaker 1 The complexity probably comes from not only we bring ourselves into it and then they come. So we bring our logic into conversations. I bring my logic the way that I do my life and the way that I understand things to see perspectives. And then the other person does too. And when you talk about the end, you walk into a room with multiple people, it multiplies by tenfolds, right? So that we all, not only we bring our own logic into it, but then by somehow conversing that expands as we speak. That complexity, it can be quite, you might get lost in it if you are not somehow anchored, if you're not oriented towards certain direction, then I think people usually, often they get lost in conversations because of that complexity. And when I look at my logic, I bring to this and then especially when I listen to other people that I completely disagree with. And I'd say, you know, when it comes to value, I'm like, what are you talking about? How do I maintain the stance of I am not here to agree with you. That's not my job. But if I take a stance of I, you must have a good reason. So these days when I think about solution focused practise, I often thought of it as, oh, what are their best of hopes? And I realised that it depends on who I work with. Even in cultures where they don't have this clear word for hope, sometimes when they actually have words, hope as in that lies in the past and some other language groups, they we when we talk about. So the future in front of this is how we speak in English. Future ahead of us is what we say. So many other cultures, they actually say the past ahead of us because that's what you can see. So depending on your language groups too, I think about all those actually add to the complexity of my logic, of me doing my life. And when we kind of come together, it becomes dialogic. My I bring my logic, You bring your logic across the table. And when we have that, not diagnostic, but dialogic spaces, things grow. Things just grow and I think that makes it so complex and absolutely so colourful that things are growing right. But then how do we maintain that stance of you must have a good reason? So that's what I'm paying attention to these days because best hopes, great. But when I asked people about you must have a good reason, it really it feels a lot weight here. Speaker 3 Wow, that cool, huh? It is. It's really cool. So yeah, we bring, we bring our stuff and it's the orientation and that stance that's really important. You said something in a when I was doing a little bit of research back in 2021, and I'm going to read a quote to you. Did you know that the word conversation used to mean where you live, like your address? This definition from nearly 7 centuries ago rings true as many of us dwell in constant conversations with ourselves and others. They came to mind as you were saying, you know, we bring our stuff and then they bring their stuff and but if we can create this dialogue where we grow something together in the direction. Speaker 1 Yeah, something will grow. And what's the direction now that's the question. Conversation. Something's growing. Some conversations. Fear and doubt grow. Some of the conversation, your hope and your sense of like self grow. And which direction do we want to go? And another. Jason, another interesting sort of way to look at the word conversation is Yeah, it it really meant your dwelling place or your a place where you habitually sort of visit or dwell. And that's also interesting word habit, as in the thing that you wear. It's a habit. And it's called a habit because back in the days, if you think about it, it's not like we can just go shopping and, you know, buy 10 different things. But back then when you make something you wear for a long time, so often you are known also with your clothing that you wear because people will often see you in two or three, maybe like Max 5 things in your wardrobe and that's what you have. So you're kind of known. So habit is like what you frequently wear, right? And and at the same time, the word converse is also turning together, like turning together. So how do we do that? Because we are not doing this, we are actually turning together. It's a very curious word. Speaker 3 Yeah, fascinating. I love that sense of where we draw, we dwell because it's dawning on me that that the people I work with, we often talk about the types of conversations that happen around here. And it's where teams often dwell. And one of the ways I've used the DOQ is, is giving leaders, taking them through it and giving it to them as a map. And so I just want you to sit back and listen in a meeting and just tally up where the conversation is happening. I don't say anything, just. Speaker 1 That's exactly. You just use it as an observation or like listening tool and it's kind of like you're just, you can even like videotape your team meeting and then now put it through the DOQ lens and it will be like, wait, what? Right. And that tells a lot about, well, it doesn't really tell us about what the problem is or it's not a good or a bad thing though, because whether it's quadrant 3 or 4 or one or two, it's giving you some ideas about what's really important to you. And I think what wasn't clear to me even after I came up with a DOQ in 2016, I think, and even then I was talking about it. But every single time I learn from how people are using it, it's like, oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's interesting. And then most recently what I am really appreciating is how Quadrant 3 and 4 are such important resource for us. And often I think solution focused practitioner is mistakenly sort of trying to take people out of it. But if you do, we see that people will always like they want to try to bring you back there because they don't feel heard. And our job is not to avoid it, but how do we acknowledge and really work with it? And I, I find it so useful. So it's not a bad or a good thing that leaders do when they're observing. But it's like, So what do you hear as what they're even afraid of? Because question voice dreaded future, fearful future. But people fear because they care about something and they don't want to lose it. Then how to train people to listen to what is it that they care so much about that they fear losing it. And now all of a sudden they want to protect it. So they it shows up as a fear, it just shifts their focus, right? I just find it so useful. Speaker 2 I've been thinking about this high song because I've been, I've been working on a bit of a rate on a bit of a resource, but I've also been thinking about what you're saying in listening, listening for people's hopes within their dreaded future. And I think that's a really interesting way that we can use the DOQ is to, you know, and, and listen for that exactly what you're saying, what's important to people. And even I was thinking about in people talking about their dreaded past. We can also still, I think, listen for, you know, their resilience or, you know, when we have that belief about people that they're resilient, that they have strengths, we can, we can listen for those within within that. And then it becomes a really helpful way of then, you know, not trying to drag them out of the out of the lower out of those quadrants. But it actually becomes a way to, you know, ask them about how did you do that? Like how did you, you know, so so I think, yeah, that's, I've been reflecting on that and thinking about that lately too. Speaker 1 You know, right before I started to talk about the quadrant, 'cause I actually take photos of all my flip charts when I, when I teach. So I have these flip charts from 20/15/16 when I was in China and everything is translated 'cause I, you know, I don't speak Chinese. And I think so. It really helped me to work with a group who do not speak the language because then I had to come up with a simpler way of communicate, minimising misunderstandings as much as I could as an educator. And one that I used on the flip chart that I noticed not too long ago when I was doing the background of the DOQ, is that I had a transcript and I have drawn doors on certain words. It's like this door might open something. So it's kind of like seeing every word, almost like a doorknob. So if you grab that, it's going to open to completely like maybe a different room or different room. And it was really useful to think of it like that because I think Dionna, as you say, even from every single quadrant tells us about something that they care about. And kind of like, where do we like, where do we put the door handle? It's kind of almost like that. And another way to sort of explaining it to younger generation, I found was when I tell people, especially younger people that who, who know these expressions, I told them that, listen, it's kind of like every word that client tells you. We used to study. People by what they say and then we look at to what they really mean and we look at the subtext, right? So I just had a lecture at a university level and they just got it. And I said we used to study people like that. There must be underlying something, the root cause of something, the sub, the subtext, there's something below the text. So then we look at what's the meaning beneath. So that's how we worked with people and that's why we required people to have expertise to read somebody's mind, like Interpretation of Dreams, like 1899 publication, like that's crazy. And then after that, especially with this idea of composing together. So instead of looking at subtext, we started to look at context. So here's a text, where is it coming from? Not inside. When around we look at around. So when clients give you a word and like, oh, where is it coming from? How are you using that word? So even pragmatics, I would say, or semiotics, these are all looking at the signs of how it come to be in the context. So it's a context that we spent a lot of time looking at. So context as in the humanistic psychology did that. So you know, in you as a person, the person centre approach. So how you use this word is coming from this context and it's still very popular, isn't it? But I find the solution focus, especially solution focus way of working with the people is not subtext or context. Not only subtext or context, but we actually hypertext. So hypertext is when you read let's say Wikipedia and you read through some things and some words are highlighted like, highlighted like or underlined. You click on it entirely new page opens. And in my mind solution focus works like a hypertext. So back in 2000 and 2020 or 2021, I did a very short session on it and then it stayed with me. How we work with our clients in solution focuses, hyper texting through it could be we can't actually choose the same word. It's like, oh, I'm so fearful. OK, but we can hypertext it to a completely different page than how other people might open. So I just so appreciate how intentional we are in our approach. We pay attention to these things that people like clients give us. It's wrapped. Their logic is wrapped in words lexical choices, so I find it fascinating. Speaker 2 Truly fascinating. I love that example. It's such a great visual, the, the hypertext because I often think like going into a conversation, you know, we don't really know where we're going to end up, but it's that the skill to be able to choose which words you're going to click on, I think is the skill of a the skill of a practitioner. So I think that's a really, yeah, really useful. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a hyper texting and and you know, think about it, we must have some sort of algorithm of our practise like how, you know, you look at social media and they're kind of like, oh, you like this, don't you? They kind of like show. Speaker 2 You some more similar. Speaker 1 Things, I think we have a very intentional algorithm that's not automated, but it's we are really attending to and we apply that algorithm and it's not a formula, it's algorithm. If you do this, then you know we do this. If you do this, we do this so that we are really amplifying certain parts so clients will be shown more and more of that content and not the other. So yeah, it's fun. Speaker 2 Yeah, really interesting. And I think just in thinking about how maybe how I do that, but I think I think so much has to come from our genuine belief and care about people. But when I think when we genuinely are interested in, you know, people's greatness, it might be then, you know, we're we then that algorithm you're talking about is maybe we don't have to think about so much more what that algorithm is. But we just have to click on that, on that hyperlink that's, you know, understanding or hearing more about what they're great at or so. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting thing. Why Assuming Good Reasons Transforms Our Understanding of People And that's something I've been pondering and also chatting with Jason about, you know, is that like we can do solution focused as skills, but what is it that we kind of can we do the skills without really believing in people? And anyway, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on that. Speaker 1 I guess it's a belief, or sometimes we call it presuppositions about people, what we believe about the other people. You know, it's funny, I don't know if I can find my notebook. And earlier this year I wrote in my notebook, what do I really believe about three things. First question was, what do I really believe about God? And I was like, and I journaled. And the second was like, what do I really believe about people? And then it's pretty dark actually, when I read those notes, I before I die, I'm going to burn them all. And then third question was, what do I really believe about myself? And that included, if you believe something, then it doesn't mean just because you believe it, it doesn't mean that it's true. So then I had to really look at what do I believe and what possibly could be some lies that I am believing in. And one of those about what do I believe about people and what are the first things that I I wrote was that something like that people have all the answers. And then I thought, do I really believe that actually? And I realised that I don't believe that people are great. I wrote in my journal, I don't think people are that great. So then I'm like, what? What are we doing here? And I thought, OK, if I actually don't believe that, I don't believe people have all the answers within them, then why? What am I doing with solution focused? And I think that's where I started to turn about. I don't believe that everyone has a hope. So I was like, OK, if I don't believe it, that I, I cannot really practise it. I cannot ask people about what are you hoping? And because it will be imposing my supposition that first of all, you should have hope. So then what is it that I believe? And I think, Dionne, what I believe is that people have good reasons. And I think that's the extent of what I believe. I think people when people do something, I think in their given resource and context, I think they have a reason to do so and things start to make much more sense. When I looked at so many published the work of Steve Deshazer working with coming through the ceiling, that case or Henry Coleman's case of I want to want to that Steve actually remained as well as Insu's tape. And when I look at all these tapes with not best of hopes, but good reasons, it made a lot of sense to me because when people make choices, they have their own logic and reason. And when I was in Belgium just last week or two weeks ago, somebody told me about a story. I, I wonder if that was Christoph who told me that Insu was working with somebody who killed another human murderer. And in the conversation, I, I, I don't know if there's any recording of it, but clearly this person is not everyone's first choice because it's like, Oh my gosh, how are you interviewing the murderer? And one of the things that Insu said was not excusing the behaviour, but assuming that you must have, you must have had your own, your reason to do such a thing at the time. Now, it's not excusing the murder, but it's like, you must have had like, yeah. And then the person said, yeah, I did at the time. Now that's really powerful, right? Because it's not excusing. Yeah, it's not amazing. Speaker 2 Yeah, but I, I used to say, you know, assume best intentions, like assume that people have good intentions. But then I realised that that's, that's not universally true. And in the context of what I was doing and working in child protection is that sometimes, you know, people, we shouldn't assume that people have good intentions because then we overlook something that we should be that someone might have done to be able to protect a child. And so I've kind of I've I've kind of landed on the, on the that similar to what you're saying is that people are usually and usually doing the best they can with the resources and knowledge that they have. And so I think that that's AI like your take on it. I may, I may RIP it off with credit. Thank you. But yeah, I think it's a really interesting thing. Configuring Future Possibilities from Present Realities I'm interested in your thoughts on then if that's kind of our basis for working with people that they have good reasons, then where does the future bit come into that for you? Speaker 1 I think, you know, also I questioned that too, that is the hope sort of prerequisite for us doing something? Or is US doing something is part of uncovering hope? So do people become more hopeful because they realise, oh, I'm already doing something? Or do we do something because now we have hope? It's not the cause and effect, but it's it's not the cause, but it cues may be the other thing. It's a signs of something. So I think if people are doing something already, it's a sign. It's a good reason. It's a sign that tells us something that's important to you. Fear is a very good sign that you care about something. I mean, I will be very concerned if somebody is not afraid of anything. That's not confidence or like it's not bravery to me. It's like, Oh my gosh, you scare the heck out of me that you don't you're not scared of anything. So I think anxiety is a sign of your love sometimes anger and absolutely anger, you know, it could be sign of something. So when I think about, you know, I usually, you know, tell my nephews anyway that, you know, don't, don't believe everything that you think and don't trust everything that you believe. And I'm not trying to guess like them, but I'm really like getting them to sort of critically even look at yourself. Like, what is it that we think that we do and do I believe that people are doing their best all the time? I actually don't think so, and I don't think we should do that. It's too much like, I don't want to do my best. I don't want to be at my best all the time. Leave me alone. But I have a reason to do certain things. Maybe it's not even a good reason, but I have a reason to do something that makes sense to me at the time. Why do people go in debt? Why do like people sort of leave the relationship, get into stupid relationship later? And I'm like, why? What was I thinking? But you had a good reason. And I think when we start to think like that, I, I think what helps me is I start to have a bit of compassion. So when I could think what a stupid decision that you made versus you know what, I, you must have a really good reason like, because you know, I, I really think you were thinking through it. If even if not you, you, you have a reason. I become little bit more compassionate. It doesn't mean that I am less annoyed, but I am little bit more compassionate and there's little bit more room for me and in traditional way of working with people where future is so privileged that future is I guess we prioritise of the future future and then the next step towards it is one way of looking at it. And for me, I think often that future forming is often grounded in what they're already doing. And I think that's why we, when we use interventions like miracle question or tomorrow question, you know, by Chris and his team, it's not truly about the future, but we are helping people to sort of project into what they want without this noise of Yabot, Yabot. But then usually what we follow up, you know, our miracle question is, so when have you seen some parts of that? And I think that's where the magic is. It's not the miracle question. The miracle really is in that linking to this is what you think you don't have yet. Where have you seen it already? Scaling question scale of 1 to 10. I'm at a four. OK. So what's your next step versus how did you come up to this four? Now that link is where the magic is. So that's where the miracle is like happening. So in my mind, future solution is solution focus, future focus. I don't necessarily believe that either, especially working with the children, right? Speaker 3 Absolutely. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 3 I, I, I love it because we started the conversation with, you know, I, I fell in love with it because it was so simple. And then I found out this is, this is, yeah, so elegant. And I don't know, hesitate to use the word complex in some ways, but I love what we're talking about in relation to you. You're exactly right. The future hasn't happened yet. And if we can help people think about the future in an, in a, a relational interactional way, they have to draw on the past and the present to make that description. Made me think about some of the work that I've been doing with a colleague around post traumatic growth and they talk about PTSD and PTG coexisting. So there are moments in the trauma of growth and yet most of the time we focus on getting people through the trauma and yet the other bits are happening. And that's where I think that this is the beauty of solution focus that might those, those interactional descriptions of the future from multiple relational perspectives, bring up the bits that are already happening even just a little bit. And as we interact with those, they potentially get bigger for that person. And my, my original definition of coaching before I even found solution focus. So God, 2015 years ago was it's a privilege to walk beside someone as they find their way through situations where they never thought there was a way. And so for me, it's not like the the answers are in them. The answers are around them. Yeah. We're kind of hugging them into that space as we ask them those questions and we pick up on the the hyperlinks in the conversation. Speaker 1 Awesome. And there I love that imagery of like you cradle cradled in this answers, you know, kind of like that. I what a what a wonderful way to look at it. Yeah. And sometimes I use this expression of how do we create this vivid memory of our future. And depending on who I talk to and when I speak to, let's say neuroscientist, musician or people from so many like artists, so many different pilots, when I tell them about solution focus, they're like, that is amazing because and they, they have their own interpretation of how that works. And it's incredibly, it's, that's what baffles me. It's so simple. So when I say it, everyone's like, I know exactly what you mean. And they, they see immediately how they can use it. This one neuroscientist that I work with, when I when I talked about this creating this vivid memory of your future, but you think that you haven't lived it. But neuroscientist she told me that it's funny because very likely your brain is not creating something that you haven't lived yet. I mean, it's it's you must have an experience either direct or vicarious. So you have it, you you stored it and you are simply when we say we are figuring it out together, it literally it spells out, we configure, we figure out together. So your brain almost is kind of like all your memories of what you really liked, kind of like when you ask those questions, it configure. So it's configuration. I, I want my life in that configuration, but then all the figures are already existing and I and I just love talking to people from so many different disciplines because they have their own interpretation. I'm like, I love it. It's so like, that is so wise, right? Isn't that so interesting? Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, I've been, so I've been thinking about this, this same thing for a long time in the and I think that that it is, it's, it has to be physical real estate in our minds. And when we, when we build a vivid picture of it, it's, it's, it's matter that that gets created. And so then I think, you know, they're more likely to then be pathways that are then reused in the future. So I think it's it's super interesting about I'd love to have a conversation with your friend. You know, if we if it's not, whether it's a podcast, but so. Speaker 1 We're bound by this language too, Dionne. So if I were to ask you, both of you, Jason and Dionne, now your task is design a bag that you've never seen. There was almost like an impossible task or can you design A chair that you've never seen? And when I was working with architects, that was their task. They were given 3 hours, 3 hours, architects and I said design the front of a house. I guess it's a walkway. It could, it could be a long walkway, it could be just the face of the house. But design a front of the house that you've never seen, you've never seen that was very specific. And they're like, Oh yeah, no problem, we are creators and we will do that. And then they had three hours and it's amazing. They actually all use this graphic programme, I forget what it's called, like something sketch or something. And they all came back after three hours. This. Elaboration of this front that I've never seen. And they all came as like, and I said, you sure you've never seen this? It's like, Oh yeah, we're pretty sure we've never seen it. And some people actually had this house with a little waterfall around it and it's it's beautiful. And then I said, so where have you seen some parts of this? And then I remember as one architect, well, I remember like seeing this thing from when I was in Rome and then this, this one over here coming from here like water pipe that is collecting water. Every single part of it was informed by somewhere they have seen. But then in that configuration, they've never seen it, of course. And I find such parallel in how we work with our clients with America. Question. Oh, I've never seen, I've never seen that kind of that never happens. Well, what parts of it have you seen? Well, that happened last Saturday. This happened when I was like 7. So I think that is available to us and those are the resources that we are now given that we can work with. Oh, I get so excited talking about this. Speaker 3 I love it. Speaker 2 It's fun, Love it. These conversations have been so fun. Revolutionising Teaching Practice with Solution-Focused Approaches What are you what, how are you using SF at the moment? What are you most? What are you working on that you're most excited about? Speaker 1 Hmm, There are a few that I'm working with, but one that I am very excited about is how educators are changing. And I'm looking at faculty development, not so much K to 12, but higher education and up. And especially in clinical education, how educators are changing their education practise by using coaching. And we're looking at simply how they teach and we do analysis of their what they say. And that's a little bit massive at the right now, but I think I find it so useful to do that. Well, here's a reason. Because do do you know this graphic programme called Canva? You know of that programme now, ever since Canva came around, I noticed that we no longer see some like tacky PowerPoints anymore. I love it entire like I feel like entire world of presentation got upgraded. He's like, thank goodness for these graphics, right? So we we don't see those thick figures anymore and cliparts, for example, they're dead right. So I feel like that about Canva and graphics. And now with also LinkedIn posts and even emails, I notice how Chachi PT writes. So some of many of the LinkedIn posts that people do, I'm like, oh, this is Chachi PT driven. Because, you know, GPT does a specific pattern. Well, it's this, it's not this, it's not this, it's this. So like there's a specific pattern that it follows. So it's kind of like, I cringe a little bit. It's like, come on, being a little bit original. But we I find that now I don't see a lot of grammar errors or typos in my students work 'cause they run it through chachi PT and I'd actually encourage them but don't give me. So I my expectation is a higher 'cause we have chachi PT. So I feel like people's writing has been upgraded too. But you know what I noticed that notice right now is what is one way to upgrade people's teaching practise. And I feel that this is very, still very human, that when a human to human, when I am showing you something, when I'm showing you how to do something, it's very human still. And then that is still quite very much caught in 1800s. So I want to see this human to human knowledge, knowledge sharing to be upgraded, like how Canva did it, how GPT did it. So that's what I'm really focusing on right now. And solution focus is a huge part of that. So Dion, when you say when you do supervision of with other people, and I think that's part of that pedagogical sort of method. And I want it to be upgraded, right? So that's where I see solution focus being used right now. And it's the most exciting way for me. Yeah, sorry for this long winded, sort of. Speaker 3 It's it's. I heard you use the term. I can't remember, I was on a webinar. Speaker 1 Chitaguchi, yes. Speaker 3 Exactly. You knew. You knew. And I, I, I, I sat at my whiteboard and I mapped out like pedagogy and and andragogy and then pedagogy and pedagogy. Yeah, Yeah. And looking at all of the different components and the and the the, the major one of the things that stood out to me was the self determination in approach. So this is that's kind of what you're working on and how a solution. Speaker 1 That's exactly right. Cool. Yeah, Solution focus has a Hiragoty call framework. Yeah. Speaker 3 Oh, that's going to be so cool. Speaker 1 Yeah. Would it be? I think it's, it's, I mean, it's about time that we look at our own teaching practise. And right now, I mean, initially when Checha PT came around, all the universities like, oh, we don't do that. Even now some journals and publishing companies like, Oh no, no, no, we don't do Checha PT. I'm like, are you kidding me? Why not? But it's now up to me as a professor to make sure that I am really, how do I curate my curriculum so that it's really speak like it really assists your learning. I'm not going to ask you to like give me a comparison essay because Chachapity will do that in 2 minutes. But I need to know curate how I share this learning and I, I how I learn from them as well in my learning environment by using all the resources available. So then how do we equip educators to do that? And I think that's our next thing. Speaker 3 How then does solution focus help? How does it help? What do you find? Speaker 1 How does it help Jason? What do you think? Speaker 3 What are you finding? Speaker 1 Think about it like when you do specialty supervision and doing a solution focused way is I mean, I usually start like supervision is not that different from coaching and the supervision we often start by, well, you must have a good reason for signing up for this thing, spending your time and money. And I often asked him, So what will be really useful for you? You know what, what are some of the things that you want to see different in your practise and how like how do you see me as being useful? And that probably is a slight difference that I do engage myself as a more of a mentor in it because you must have a good reason to like seek me out. So let's let's do this. And then I often they usually tell me, what can you do this, do that and then also tell me what I may not know about right now. It's like, great, let's do that. So that's a mix of they them determining what they want to learn within this topic area. But I actually have done this with people who I have no idea about this OBO player. I don't play over. I don't play any of those things, but can I still let them learn what they need to learn? Absolutely. Because I know how to do this solution focus, practise. And then I simply, when in solution focus, when people say, oh, you follow the climb from behind, that's what we do in supervision. You simply say, So what did you learn and where are you confused about? Show me, what do you mean? So I'm really simply following them around and really what about that? What about that is what I'm doing? So I think Jason shows up in so many different ways. And I just have written an article very like recently and I speak about that exact process of how solution focus is used as a pseudological approach, as a faculty development and think about medical education, graduates of 2025 learning from graduates from 1980. Now who has more to learn? It's a very honest question, right? Because how we learned in 2025 is quite different than 1980. Then how do we create those, those environment for people to really learn from one another? And I think that's a big shift. Speaker 3 So he's he's question 2. Are you ready of our of our little framework? Speaker 1 Oh my God, that was just question one. Speaker 3 And I love the way Dion usually usually ask this, I'm going to I'm going to RIP off and duplicate. If you walked outside and you met your neighbour and they said, what is this solution focused thing that you talk about? How would you describe it to them? Speaker 1 I will describe it as I make intentional and attentional choices to help the other person create their preferred stories of purpose, possibilities, and progress. Speaker 3 Awesome. Speaker 1 There you go. Speaker 2 That's very nice. So most like you've been thinking about that for a while. Hey, Sam. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a pretty neat way to look at it actually. Speaker 2 Yeah, I really like that. Cultivating Curiosity and the Enduring Impact of "Coaching A-Z" So one of the things that we that we, we kind of really wanted to set out with the, with this podcast was that people who listen to it could walk away with a new idea that they could try or a new, you know, a new something that they could, you know, maybe try their own practise. What? What could you teach us? Speaker 1 Well, what I am learning right now is that being curious about, there are good reasons. I think I would love for people to consider that, not so much, but best hopes 'cause there's a bit of a barrier in, in inferring best hopes or asking about it. Even the idea of hope, I think it's quite Western. So how do we really pay attention to and assume that you must have your own reason or good reason sometimes and being curious about it? I think that will sort of slow us down a little bit and distance us from our own assumptions and things that we think we know about you, especially with those people that you think that you know, like you're growing child or your long term partner or friends that you think, Oh yeah, we have like so many relational shorthands. I think I know them versus if you think you know them that also in that same sense you kind of stopped believing that they're growing. If they're growing, then are you curious about what they're learning, who they're becoming and and so on and so forth. And I think really been curious about you must have your reasons. I think that will keep your relationship very healthy, right. So I, I, I would love for people to simply just hold that in mind. Be curious about you must have a good reason. It applies to you as well. That means when you think about your past choices that you see as what a stupid thing I should have done that I could have done that all of that without now excusing yourself. Simply look at what were some of the reasons so that you really become quite compassionate. And it's like, you know what? Yeah, well, there you go. And you can really move through yet another doubt and fears and anxiety with that. You know, I had my reasons. So I think that's that's what I am doing right now with myself. So yeah, that will be one thing that I would love for people to try out. Very nice. Speaker 2 So you said you wrote an article recently. Where else can we, you know, catch up with what you're up to? And anyone who listens to this and wants to check out what you're up to, what would be the best place to do that? Or places? Speaker 1 That's a good question. I don't know. Speaker 2 We'll find some and put it maybe in the notes. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm, I'm, it's just so random because here's the thing, I wanted to write something because everyone else is writing. And that's early in my career. And then I just had this like, pressure on myself. I'll have to write something. I have to, you know, I have to write something 'cause, you know, I, I have to say something. And then one of my mentors stopped me in my anxious track. And you know, she said you don't have to you, you don't have to say something. Wait until you have something to say. And then I waited because I felt like I'm just adding to the noise. I'm just adding to the pollution. And then I realised that, oh, wait a second, I do have something to say. And that's how A-Z come about, right? So here is something that I would like to actually say. And it was my grief project that sort of I, I have written that with my tears, sweat and blood and, and I wish that AI was there to help me, but no, I didn't have that. So it's every word was chosen and written and it was intentionally chosen for that reason. And yeah, and I wonder sometimes if I can actually do another project like that because it was truly a a my soul expression, right? So yeah, I think I'm not strategic in all those social media things because I don't want to do that. So yeah, you probably have to wait until I have something else to say. Speaker 2 So either replay this or yeah, find it, find something else. I'll go read coaching items. Do you reckon? Speaker 1 I would say reading is one thing, but if you can find a reading partner to read it together and do something because there's a like my favourite use of the book. It's not just you reading it, but use it. Meaning there's a reflection guide with questions and prompts. I would love for you to do that with one another so maybe one story. I can tell you the best use cases that I people told me and I get random messages and from somebody who actually said I'm reading this book with my mom who's in palliative care and she's just awake for long enough to finish one story. And then her mother will just come out of The thing is like can you read me another story? And like she's awake for maybe 2 minutes and then story's over. So she told me that and when it came to this one chapter on hope, her mother just really like after reading one story, mother was like not saying anything for a long time. And she simply said that is just beautiful. And they didn't finish the book before the mother passed. And that moved me so much when I hear those stories. And then I have another person who said they were on vacation with them, very young daughter, I think she was seven or something. And they decide to read it together. And then daughter wanted to actually read one story and mother was reading one story and they're asking each other those questions. And she told me that they bonded so much because they were actually listening, answering and listening. So those are my best use cases. So please use the book like that. It's not just for you to like read. Oh, OK, that makes sense versus use it right. So I think make very good use of it. That's my yeah. I would love to hear from you how you use it. Thank You for Joining Our Journey Toward Solutions Very nice. Yeah. Speaker 2 Thanks so much for hanging out with us. Speaker 1 Really, you're such great conversation partners and thank you for doing this. Speaker 3 Thank you for joining us on the Towards Solutions podcast. We hope today's insights inspire you to apply solution Focused in your own life and projects. Whether you're applying these strategies in your personal life, professional practise or community projects, we're excited to see the impact you create. Speaker 2 If you found this episode useful, please leave us a review and share it with others who might benefit from our discussions. Your support really helps us to reach more people and continue to bring you quality content. Stay tuned for more enlightening conversations. Subscribe now and let's continue this journey towards solutions together.