🎙️ Toward Solutions Podcast | Episode 12: Solution Focus in Wild Places with Dr Stephan Natynczuk

[Music] Hello and welcome to the Toward Solutions podcast. I'm Jason Pasco. And I'm Dianne Singh. Together we interview interesting practitioners who are using the solution-focused approach in their worlds and unpack ideas and tools that you can put into practice in your world. So if you're interested in something that's really practical, that you can do as soon as you've finished listening to the podcast, dive in. Listen to these conversations and try something in your context. Come and join us. Welcome Stefan. Thank you so much for joining us and I'm really excited to get to know you a little bit. I don't know very much about you. Besides the fact that you're an academic and you love outdoor adventures. I'm a self-employed academic which is probably one of the worst career decisions anyone could ever make actually. I fund any writing I do through my provision of solution-focused adventures if you like. Awesome. And so we came across or became introduced to you. We had a really lovely I was listening back to it actually just the other day our conversation with Victoria and what a thought-provoking conversation. And so when we had a chat with people we've been asking who else should we talk to? Who else do you know in the solution-focused world that we should have a talk to? And Victoria suggested you and said we should have a chat so here we are. We've finally made ourselves cross paths but nice to meet you. Likewise I can't believe that I've actually been recommended. I've got a huge regard to Victoria. She's one of the most solution-focused people I know. Absolutely. Stefan I was having a look at your LinkedIn profile. I was having a look at some of the papers that you've written in the book that you've written and I noticed like how do you make the leap from and correct me if I'm wrong? A PhD at Oxford in was it Syro-Kemis? That's the correct that it's a it's a D-field. Yes. Semiochemistry and social behaviour in the in the brown rat something like that. It was a long time ago. I'll say it's not and then like 1995 you kind of started using solution-focused in outdoor adventure. How do you go from a doctorate of philosophy in that to you must have found something that you loved in in solution-focused to make a change like that? No well it all happened very organically so after I finished my research so I was interested interested in social odors in mammals and as I had to learn animal behaviour but I had the best teachers in the world at that institution and I was already a biochemist and an analytical chemist so building my own apparatus and watching rats go around you know doing their smelly stuff and socially interacting as a result. I went now I had a mentor, a shot called Eric Albone who written the first book on the May in Semiochemistry and he found himself as a self-employed academic and took a teaching job as a chemistry teacher. The funding was really hard at that time and he had a great idea of of doing real research in schools and managed to get some funding for a resident scientist so I applied to this and got it and used that time to write up my research whilst working with kids at the frontiers of science so we we just had amazing stuff. We looked at we got some mud from some nature from the inside of a mummy and one could we we investigated its preservative properties you know. We did all sorts of stuff. We were radio tracking brown rats on a little island. The brown rats sorry black rats I beg your pardon. Black rats are quite rare in the UK and this population was under threat and we wondered where they were hanging out and were they actually doing the damage and now they just lived on the B-church laid their sort of Aussie rats really. Went to the Arctic to study Arctic hairs and did all sorts of amazing stuff and part of this job was working with schools for kids that don't read good and want to do all things good too. I love that quote from Zoolander and and I really enjoyed doing that and I started thinking that you know these kids really got bad a bad bad and as it were and if I could deal them a few good cards and life might hold other opportunities and it's about creating opportunities I thought and and also I thought that but for a very small intervention something that you know courts caught young persons interest it could steer them in a different direction in life because you know knowing that school and actually living in that area there was a fair risk that they would all end up in an institutionalized life if you get my meaning and and I thought well I can just do a little bit here to help create the sort of society I'd actually like to live in and and that became and still is my motivation to generate contributors to to to to to better world and and that's I guess that's my not to be too grandiose but you know that's my personal miniscule mission so I started working with oh this loads more I don't get go get go but I I started I left that job after five years and I started working in the care industry if you like with kids that were in care and not getting an education and I was using adventure activities for that and eventually you know writing around I got a job as a as a teacher in a residential school attached to a care company and it was there that I trained as a science teacher and also started training as a counsellor and in between I'd worked with with a friend who was was a was a I guess he still isn't seen for a while very successful business coach and I used to do I used to design games for for groups of managers you know quite quite sort of unique games that would test them in this in this various situations that they were trying to get around and I hadn't seen him for a while and we met up and he asked me what I was doing and I explained and he says you know what this is don't you know no not really it seems to work he said it's solution focused and he knew that because he was doing a master's solution focus practice and so I thought I'd better find some a bit more out of that and that the course he was on closed down unfortunately and after waiting for it to reestablish itself I gave up and I went to train with breathe and that was wonderful so that's the that's the model I use so because as I was doing a little bit of research for this article you said you know you were using sort of existential approaches and humanist approaches and then you said from what well this seems to be it so what is it that you love about it well I as a teenager I discovered starts and existentialism and the thing that really appealed to me I saw it on the telly it was a a dog a serious about his you know trilogy roads to freedom I think and I really love the idea of people being in charge of their future and that the very small decisions they made in any particular moment sort of plotted what was possible next whatever the consequences and and I really liked that and I'm also having trained in animal behavior you know as the third opinion this is still am that the behavior is what you this probably proof of this but I haven't I can't cite any references but it's a given but behavior is what you do in order to survive so if you do something and it works you do it again and and it's not always the best thing to do other bagues are available. So it was about exploring that and in my training I got this parable of a frog that I was going off to climb a snowy gully and I was walking through this bit of a snow storm really and this thing was hopping towards us literally heading us off at the path and he was a frog and you know knowing a little bit about zoology I realized the frog was going to reach ambient temperature and probably wouldn't be viable as a frog so I picked it up and took it back down the mountain. There were big mitten hands and let it go in a swampy bit where it could survive that it's froggyness and like most animals it well in fact all of them. It needs to find some shelter not get eaten and find some food and find a mate which is just like being a teenager. So the parallel is boundless and of course it survives by doing its best with what it's got and so you know that's a very strong message and it shines with solution focus practice of course. Um Stefan if you were you know half way up and out in some way on one of your adventures and you bump into somebody and they say you know you're a self-employed academic that uses solution focus and they say what's you know what's solution focus? How do you explain solution focus to someone who you know who might not know? Oh well that's that's that's a big question. I'm not sure I would explain actually I would just ask solution focus questions like you know if you knew what it was what difference would that make to you? And you know just get on with it. Um well um this part of the brief model that I really like is you don't explain what it is you just get on with it and see what happens. It's um you know and I love this idea of um you know taking co-facilitated change and adding in the co-adventuring for change. I quite like that. So yeah I might say well look come come and walk with me for a while and we can just have a chat about what you want to know. I don't like solution I don't like taking a sort of preachy approach the solution focus practice and saying yes the best thing ever. It isn't necessarily the best thing that said that as Evan George said it works on anyone who actually has got an idea of something they want so we can work with that and I do some some training of family workers and social workers. I think I'm around about four I've done I've trained about 400 people now for a local council who like the idea of solution focus practice as part of their strategic thinking and um I spend the day saying this is how you have a good conversation oh it's one one way that you have a good conversation and I'm very keen on common factors which you know just the shows are and then so you canberg spend all that time watching videos trying to work out what worked and there's got miller stuff on you know this is it's interesting what makes therapy work and um you know board right down um good relationships get good engagement gets good outcomes so you know if you're curious about people uh you're curious about what they want um that's that's one way of and you do that respectfully that's one way of you know dignifying somebody is um having a lot of trouble with absence of dignity so I love that I love what you saying because it is so what Chris I've just said when we didn't even have the podcast as well I'm not so sorry I told him everything you know well I'll leave that for I'll leave that for you Chris yeah I'm I'm just I didn't want to train with him and yeah um yeah but Chris said because we asked if we said look if your neighbor let uh you know let over the fence one in the backyard and said so what is it you do and why does how would you explain it um he said something similar I wouldn't explain it and then he said look on the balance of probabilities I'll ask you some questions and it will seem to work would you like to have a go something like that yeah I'm gonna transcript you from so knowing that you've trained 400 plus people in this organization oh yeah that's just yeah that's not with what what going outdoors that's just having a good time no no this is in an ordinance so how did you explain it to them to say yes come and train us um I can't remember um someone someone drew my attention to this work requiring someone to do it and you had to write a bid and so I wrote the bid and it had to be done to a budget and it said that the um in the event of a tie the cheapest um off the offer would get it so I took a tenor off the price and um got the work yeah it was a one it was a one year contract and I'm on the fourth year now yeah yeah yeah okay so are you trying are you really trying to tell us Stefan that you didn't explain it in there at all what you know because they well they already knew what solution focus was because they were advertising for a solution focused trainer right and um I'm part of a you know small organization that does solution focus training and does offers us certified course a double accredited on that ad and um and and we just said well this is what we can do um with with the funds that you've got it will give you so many sessions for so many people um this would be the shape of our day this is what we cover and and and and they like that um so um outside of you mentioned you know um being building good relationships being genuinely interested what else do you think um is unique about the solution focused orientation um we have doing those things well I I like to think it's quite scientific in a way because it's this evidence based you know you tell me something I'm gonna believe it I'm gonna use that as evidence um to ask you the next question so um um and um one one of the things that I do I'm interested in I was already eclectic practitioner of stuff that the solution focus practice that isn't solution focused so um so that there was a guy doing covid so we're all writing books doing covid weren't we so you know I wrote that one with with Will Doebud and then um um there was a guy who's a radio host radio show host who has conversations for a living and he wrote a book called um how to have a good conversation and um I heard it previewed on the radio I thought I must go and get that and and and and I read through and he's interested he's he's interviewing all sorts of people that have proper conversations that people's lives depend on so there's a hostage negotiator there's all sorts of people and um and this is so solution focused and um and I've borrowed that as as say well you know we've got this way of working solution focused practice but I'm not going to turn you into therapists yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's not my job this is a very good way of having a really good conversation it's um it tends to work in most cases uh and um it's about where you want to go and um we're going to look at the signs uh to tell you you're moving in the right way so you know the minimum I expect from any any any session with a client is that they take the very first small steps in the right direction for them and um I'm a great fan of um the accumulation of marginal gains I see that there's uh you know that's that's that's that's that's the easy route the littlest things that you can do the particles of change and and you know everything is made up of very small things you just need a lot of them and and then you've got a new entity so um there's easy gains and and I quite like things like the theory of plan behavior where you know if you've got if you believe what you're doing and you think it's in a good course and other people think that you're wrong to something you're more likely to do it so you know that that that that adds up that feeds into solution focus thinking there's all sorts of stuff that I borrow from all over the place to say look you know um this is um there's something about this it's it's evidence from all over the place not just people saying solution focus practices you know compared to this this talking therapy or that one you know it this is the best one it's just what well you know there's all this stuff out there that shows that it works from all these different angles that you wouldn't even expect uh yeah and um um so I'm reading um uh uh uh the spine novel at the moment so um I think it was um well one of the brief people posted about this uh uh book and took a quote from it, which is someone was expecting questions and realized that until they were asked the questions they wouldn't know the answers. And I can't find the page, so I've got to read the whole book on that halfway through now. Because that's another little bit of evidence and it's from a spinal wall. So there we go. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it is. It's awesome. And it's that noticing where it is, where it's not being called what it is in some ways. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Victoria said the same thing on the podcast we did with her, you know. So you specifically wrote a book about using solution focused in outdoor adventure. Yeah. That's what I do every day. Oh, that's what I was going to say. So how are you using solution focused at the moment? Well, um, this is only talking to you. The adventure is, you know, it's therapeutic in itself being outdoors with people that you want to be with doing something you want to do, sunshine, all sorts of weather, achievements, you know, solitude, tranquility, sunshine, all that's food, all that stuff is good. And, you know, being being away from your everyday pressures is always good. The solution focused stuff comes in two ways really. One is in conversations. And I don't force those at all. The adventure builds. It's very important to therapeutic alliance, I think, because we build trust. We build a sort of common endeavour, joint enterprise. These things we can take for granted. And I think when people want, it's young people who are working with most of the time. And when they want to talk, they want to talk and they want to do it right now. So, um, and it can happen. Float down a river. It can happen sat on my ledge, you know, doing a rock climb. One notable occasion resting on a rock in a stream in a cave. And it just comes out. And you can't say, oh, look, you're going to see a therapist tomorrow at four o'clock. Can you hold on till then? You can just ask a few questions. And they can feel, listen to that, you can hold that therapeutic space, even if it's cold and dark and wet. And, um, and you can, you can validate those concerns. And, um, and it just start that conversation. You don't have to finish it there. Starting it is the main, is the main thing. And, um, I can be out for hours. And, um, my only ask one or two questions, slightly solution focus. And it's just to get that train of thought going, you know, who's best interest is this? Is what I'm going through in? Um, is, is, is there a way out? I like this idea of solution focus boiled down to, you know, it's essential oil, if you like, which is what you want. And how do you know you've got it? So, um, that's the guiding. This is, I really liked in the SFIL article, um, about the low visibility, uh, navigation. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was, I think it's a fantastic, um, metaphor if you like, because you don't know where you're going, because you can't see it. You've got a map. So, you've got some idea of where you are. And if you're not quite sure, you can go back to somewhere where you did know where you were. And then you plot a course based on angles against, you know, compass bearings and, um, and signs on the map. And, and you follow the signs and you follow the direction. So the compass bearing, if you like, is the, the route towards our best hopes and, and, and the terrain. That's the signs that we're making the right sort of progress. And, and, it's, I'm sorry, you got, keep going, please. No, no, well, I'm not sure what else, you know, the things that stood out to me was, it was kind of like, how will we know we've gotten there? What will be the rest of the, so there's the preferred feature in that description. That's right. Yeah. So with, with, with that bad weather, navigation on the mountain and the snowstorm, you, you, you need three pieces of evidence, at least to actually coordinate and corroborate where you are. So, um, it could be height if you've got an altimeter and you set it properly or it's set itself properly. It, it's the terrain, it's slope. Um, it, it's, you know, all the signs are there. You, you've, you've just got to make sure they will add up to, because you can start believing you've got somewhere else in your heaven. And that is like a navigational error 101. Um, and that, that is common. Um, I know people that are very good mountain people who will make quick assumptions and, and then realize that they're in the wrong valley. Oh, yeah, stuff like that. I've heard those stories before. You know, if you're careful and, and you do follow the signs and, um, and then you run this little program in your mind, you know, if then, um, you know, it's, it's, it's a good, it's a good analogy, I suppose. Yeah. Is there a, um, a story that comes to mind when you think about, uh, um, I guess an example of, of where you've used, I mean, the, the cave example is, you know, a really, really good one. Is there any other example? I think where, you know, you've, you've, you know, an example of applying solution focus work in this kind of context. Yes. Oh, the other thing I was going to say and it leads, it connects to the story I'm going to tell you in a moment. Um, it is that, you know, by, by just communicating your expectations and giving people choice to, well, the opportunity to be at their best for a while, um, you, you can use solution focus ideas in a non-spoken way. Um, one, one, one, uh, and I've written about that. Um, um, yeah. Okay. So a story that comes to mind is, um, it is, it is, um, sort of living this solution focused approach rather than just, um, having a conversation about it. So many years ago, I was referred to, um, like young person was referred to me, um, and I went to see him and whole suite of professionals have decided that this character had travel anxiety and wouldn't go to college. And, um, um, this was in the long, long summer vacation. I went to see him. We got on all the hunt and he said, well, you know, it's just menu of stuff we can do. And what would you like to choose? And he said, oh, it's to choose Caving. I thought, well, that's good because there's no case around here. So we're going to, we're going to have to travel. So we did, we traveled and went off Caving and, um, come to the end of the summer. Um, he, he, um, uh, here to do this quite tricky journey of getting a lift at train station, getting a train and then maybe a couple of buses to get to college, uh, because you lived in a middle of nowhere and then do that on the way back. And it was not a problem. Um, um, um, he did that and he succeeded at college and then he came to me for work experience and went all right and I gave him a job and now he sort of settled down with kids and doing okay, you know. And, and we never once talked about travel anxiety. So we just got on with what he wanted to do and everything fell into place. So I think that the expectation of the professionals that referred him to me thought that we might spend hours and hours, you know, reliving his travel anxiety to try to find out a way of, um, knocking it out. I'm not sure if it existed. And, um, and I, and I quite like that. We just got on with it, you know, so you can make these assumptions. So it's like a lot of kids I work with don't like reading or writing at the end of the session. I hand, I hand them their feedback form and, um, this sort of thing. And it takes less than a minute to fill in and, um, I don't make a show of it. I just give it to them on a clipboard and I say, well, it's to help you actually get a better session and then they just fill it in. It's sort of no argument. I like that sort of ninja aspect of the practice. You know, just this is normal. So we just do it. That's great. Um, one of the things that I, so when we started this podcast, one of the things that I really wanted, um, when I first got into solution focused ideas, um, resources like this were awesome because I just devoured them and, um, and learnt stacks. But, um, we'd really love people to, who listen to it to be able to walk away with a new idea or something that they could use in there would. Well, um, what could you teach us that we could walk away and and try experiment with? Um, well, what would you like to learn? I can't sort of do solution focus to you. I can't sort of hypnotize you a bit. You should try to give it a go. People, that's a good question. I haven't thought about it and I, um, I've mostly thought about it from the perspective of, you know, people who might be listening, who might be interested in learning how to do what you're doing. So if I was in, you know, I was, maybe I was doing adventure therapy in Ireland to learn about how I could apply solution focus in that space. Yeah. You know, what would you, um, what could you teach us? Well, praiki, or this does happen to me, actually. Um, it just happened to me the other night as a young, young man in, um, little states, um, and he, um, got in touch with me through LinkedIn and said, you know, I'm quite interested in this. Can we have a chat? And, um, and we did and it went on for two and a half hours. And, um, I was, you know, just like, well, you know, what would you like to know? Just ask, you know, just ask questions and, and we just would develop that because I don't have, I don't, I don't have a sort of like, you know, um, the solution focus Bible according to Stefan. I, I know anything like that at all, you know, I'm not going to, in fact, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm quite, um, if there's anything I'm, I'm militant about, it's doing therapy to people, not with them. And, and that has been, that has been quite a big issue in the wilderness therapy field, especially in the states, um, where a medical model is used because they have to justify funding from insurers companies by coming out with a diagnosis and a treatment and, and, and, it's awful. Um, so, um, I, I, I can't say, um, what, what comes to mind? I think, I think paying attention to the common factors about being curious, about being patient, about really, really listening, listening is hard work. You've got to listen to what people are saying and you've got to believe it. And, um, the, you know, the person you're speaking to owns their own solution. So we can talk about it and I can ask you questions about how you'd know that you were heading in the right direction and how you would know that you'd actually arrived. And, and that, that sort of contracting is really, really important. And, um, um, you know, when we know what we're talking about, we can get on with it. And, and, and, and, and, and when you know what you want and you know, you'll know how you've got it, that's, that's the end of the work. So, um, that, that, that keeps it really focused and, um, and, and it actually helps, I think it helps the worker immensely because they actually know what they're doing. And, and, and if, if, if they listen hard and they're working in the best interest of their client, um, it's possible to get to something useful, those first small steps in the right direction, quite quickly. And, and that efficiency is why, you know, can't you counsel us like one, one, one, always me, one day a week, um, one day a month, sorry, um, like it because it's efficient. Um, it, in theory, it reduces your, your client list very quickly. And, uh, so it's, it's, it's economically effective. If you can help people sort themselves out, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's like hitting the gold mine, really. How are the, how are the counsel using it? Because you mentioned when you first brought that up, that, that we're using it more strategically. Oh, yes, they have this thing called, um, that account, the approach. And it's about finding a strength-based methods of working with the child at the center. So, um, what I do is part of a trilogy, there's motivational, interviewing and restorative justice. They do those three courses. And, um, every time someone gets promoted or changed job, they have to come back. So there's, there's, there's a small number of people that I've seen three times. Very small, you know, that's some five that's, um, I saw quite a fun because I change it every time because I'm always finding new stuff or a different way to sort of put a point across and introducing more dad jokes and stuff. And, um, it's, it's, it's, it's a huge amount of fun. What's your, what's your favorite way to get a point across at the moment? Or your latest way? If you keep adding to it. Um, okay, it depends what point it is. Um, I'm very keen on memes. Um, I borrow off the tin to web. Um, and, um, and, and, you know, cartoons and things, so that they, they get the point across instantly. And then, you know, we can talk about it. So, with the accumulation of marginal gains, for example, there's this, there's two ladders. Um, ones got huge steps. The distance between the wrongs is huge. And I talk, taller than the person. And the other one's got micro steps. And, you know, there's a person right at the top of that ladder up in the clouds. And the first person's still trying to reach up to the first wrong. Um, there's that. And, and of course, that, that approach, um, did wonders for British cycling back in, you know, lead up to the London Olympics when, um, you know, lots of little changes were being made like, make sure the bicycle frame fits, pump up your tires properly, have the spokes properly balance, bury the cables in the frame and tuck your elbows in. All these little things that would add up, you know, sometimes less than 1% advantage, um, accumulated to make, um, huge differences. And British cycling team went from, we're not going to, you know, cycle makers not letting them use their bikes because they didn't want to be associated with losers, uh, to, you know, wiping the floor clean, uh, at the London Olympics, you know, and also they're taught a France and, well, sorts of stuff, you know, uh, and, when asked, um, how it was that they were doing this, um, um, this is a story, you know, um, they said, um, well, our wheels are rounder, which is, is not actually far from the truth because if, if you tighten your spokes up properly and your wheel runs true, that's a little bit less drag, uh, and there's a bit more control and, and, um, you know, you get that, that, that's the few millimeters and hour faster, which, you know, when you're in a, a championship race like that, it's, it's hundreds of a second that can make the difference between coming first and second, um, and people don't actually want to come second, you know, race like that. What, um, someone comes and spends the days with a day with you, maybe it's from the council, what would you, what would you hope that they would walk away with? Um, that's a very good question, uh, and, this used to, this used to worry me quite a lot actually, that sometimes it would seem that wasn't actually doing anything. And, and there was a time when we were, uh, as the laddo's working, we found this place in the forest, um, which had been cut out of the, of the hillside, it was a big square, it was lined with timber. It was about half a meter deep and about three meter square and a tree in each corner, it was brilliant, you put a top up there and, and we, we went there a few times, and this is the case when we cooked some sound, we didn't know, but, but, makes, made some bacon sandwiches and, and, and, and, and, and, and whatnot. And they started raining and there's that sort of horrific pitter-patter on, on the top. And he fell asleep, and, and my helper fell asleep, too, and I thought, well, I better stay alert in case there were bandits or wolves or bears or something, so I'm going to just sat there for three hours. And, um, it was time to go. So it gently wake him up, you know, your mum's expecting you back. We've got to go now. And it was in the early days of me experimenting with feedback informed treatment. And so, you know, walking along, I think, how am I going to write this up, you know, when we went to the forest, we put our poppies, we had some food, and everyone went to sleep. And so I said to him, well, what was it that you really enjoyed about today? You know, is this something we did that actually made a difference? And to my astonishment, he said, "Stephan, that was the best session ever." And I thought, well, yeah, okay, I've driven kids to the mountains before, and they fall asleep because they've been up all night. And, you know, it's good that they turned up. And the sleep is what they needed, so that's what they got. And this really reinforced that. And I said, yeah, this is absolutely right. The therapy is about what the client wants. It's not about me doing outdoor activities and designing the world miss Olympics, you know, higher faster, deeper, colder weather, muddier, darker, squeezier, scarier. It's none of that. It's what you actually want from the session. And So he left that session feeling great because he'd caught up with his sleep and he'd had some food and he'd been, I assume, some useful company and he'd been outdoors and he'd been away from all his usual pressures and stuff and felt better equipped to get on with life, which I think is, is what any sort of therapy is about really. So I think that someone working with me to the day, they might not see a whole solution focused conversation, they might just see a few questions. I guess they'll see a lot of patience, they'll see a lot of choice offered because that is an antidote for complex trauma, ability to say no. Venture offers quite a lot of opportunities to say no and a lot of patience, a lot of calm. People that do work with me say they say that, but my way of working is very calm, I'm very curious and respectful way and I don't tend to say too seriously, I've got lots of silly jokes, I've got to be a little bag full of visual puns that I use on my introduction day. Still you think, the best one I think is so I'm told, I've got a USB plug which I've wrapped black and yellow tape around it and I sort of foraged through the leaves and I go, oh it's a little bit tricky, I told you about the red bees around here, I've got an American bee, I'm not sure when I look and all this sort of stuff and I got it in my hands and I don't know reveal it. So yeah it's a USB. Stupid stuff like that, a wooden fork that I might drop at the junction of some paths and say, well we were right at the fork in the path, you know what, no there it is. And it works really well as ice breakers. I keep a couple of egg boxes in the back of my car and say that, I hear that people your age like to play with eggs boxes, I've got a cup in the back of a cup and you can keep them afterwards and they got excited about that. Of course, I've caught some kids out more than once with that. You know it's just about being lighthearted and it's part of the pace model for working with chore mats. Yeah and it's fun. Awesome. I can see you come alive, you come alive, I'd love to see you in action. Swinging through the trees on ropes and yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's the poles. It sounds to me based on what the way we're talking that you take a lot of care with the solution focused opportunities that may present themselves on that journey as well. And in the article you wrote about, leave no trace. Oh yes, yes. They have borrowed that from the outdoor ethic of leaving that trace. And I thought, well, how does this apply to therapy in general, especially solution focused practice. So we borrowed that ethic and translated it. But also, I'm really keen on this stuff. I call it natural mindfulness. So you know, sitting by a fire, not thinking of anything except, you know, twiddling the sausage on the end to cook it all the way through all the way around and not talking. I don't need to or drifting down a river in a canoe. And kids with very chaotic lives are often remarked that this about the tranquility or watching deer run through a forest, you know, you're sat in a rock and sit deer below or watching salmon trying to jump up a weir. That sort of stuff, you know, you're just there in the moment. And I quite like that. More than say, wait, it's 11 o'clock, we've got half an hour at mindfulness now, you know, it's not going to happen. So you can sort of weave these moments in. And most of the time it's just best by chance that it happens. And, you know, I'm curious about nature. I mean, I'm worth, you know, natural wildlife. And, you know, often people haven't, my clients haven't been to such a wild place. And one of the nice things about British Arles is that comparatively it's very small and you get a lot of variety within a very short distance. And so, you know, there's a lot that lots of happen. You know, that can happen. Just back to leave no trace. What are you aware of, you know, when you're working with people? Oh, and how do you apply that in your work? Like I love the, yeah, the aspiration, aspirational quote from Insook in Berg about leave no footprints in your in your clients life. And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's like the aim for I'm very keen that they do the work on themselves. And just listening, keeping that direct, the compass bearing that's the best hopes in mind and coloring in the map with the details. That's, that's, that's very important to me. You know, there's another leave no trace point about, you know, not polluting the environment, you know, like, digular tree in certain distance away from the stream and, and, and, and, and it quite like that because we shouldn't be bringing our own rubbish to our clients' lives. And, you know, we're not talking to them about our own change process. So we always learn from our clients, but, you know, they're the most important thing. And, and, and we don't want to sort of pollute their story with advice or, you know, which, I love that line in the sunscreen song about advice being formed from nostalgia. And, and, and, yeah, you come across that at times with, you know, care workers and people who, doing their best to be helpful and come up with stories about their own lives and stuff and, you know, just, just, just, just stop that for a moment because it's about the kid. And, and, and, and what they think is really important for them. Um, yeah. That's great. If, if we were to find out more about you and what you're doing, um, Jason's mentioned a couple of articles that we'll be able to link, um, in the, in the, in the, in the notes below. But where can people find you and, um, find your book, find, find out what you're up to? Um, I don't put much on LinkedIn. I don't use social media media that much, um, they can just email me at, um, at spare crab. Um, and I cloud.com. Um, they can message me on LinkedIn like, you did. It seems to be quite, quite efficient. I know. I can bet for that. Yeah. Um, I don't get, yeah, so it's not a lot of traffic there, but, um, you know, there's enough for me to notice and to see it. And, um, without a meaning, it doesn't get lost like, I get, like most people, I get billions of junk emails. If you'd like, you can't keep up with deleting them, you know, um, that's, um, yeah. So some sort of message on that, that would be fine. Um, the book is, um, is print on demand, which is rather good. So you just get hold of, you just Google it. Uh, it's published by Routledge to, uh, uh, 2023. I think, um, solution focus practice in outdoor therapy, co-adventuring for change with, uh, will do budding myself. Um, that's it. Um, I pop up at conferences. So I'm doing the UK ASFP conference in Reading, um, talking about the incidental stuff that solution focused, but not solution focused. If you, if you so me, uh, uh, those influences, um, I'm, I'm in Belgium in a few weeks, uh, the gathering at adventure therapy Europe, um, where I'm, um, talking, running a workshop on how to have good conversation. Um, yeah, so I'm sort of out and about in the field. That's it. Well, um, you can't go up any mountain, expect me to turn up. It's best to make an appointment. Do you have any parting, um, parting advice for us on how to have good conversations? Um, just listen hard and be curious. Thank you very much for inviting me to talk to you because, um, I, I, I don't really get a lot of time to, or many opportunities to sort of reflect back on where I've been. Um, and, and how I got to where I am now. So, um, um, I can color in my own map now. Well, you finished one of the articles with being useful. So hopefully we have been because it's really really useful for us. So thank you. I had no idea. Adventure. Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea how useful it would be. That's part of the speech of our practice process really. And that's the value of feedback in form treatment because it tells you how useful you've been. It tells you what your relationship is with a client. Is it useful? Was the stuff we talked about useful? Was the session overall any good? Those sorts of questions. So, you know, we adapt to client's needs and help them fulfill them. Absolutely. Well, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. I really, really appreciate your time, Stefan. That's a really nice getting to know you a little bit. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Toward Solutions podcast. Deon and I have had fun recording it and we hope you get the most out of it. If you've got something out of it, we'd love you to leave a review. It helps us to reach more people and we do this because we genuinely believe in the solution-focused approach and its ability to change communities and people's lives for the better. So if you want to join us with spreading that solution-focused approach, then a review is a great way that you can help us to do that. So, yeah, please leave a review and like it, make sure you subscribe so that you get notified when the next episode drops. We'll chat to you on the next one.