🎙️ Toward Solutions Podcast | Episode 11: When Schools Come Alive - Solution Focus in Education with Vicky Essebag

I love solution focus and I love what it does, the impact that it has on school communities. Less suspensions, more parent engagement, more student engagement, more success at school for students. Teachers are more involved, more engaged. Hello and welcome to the Towards Solution podcast where creativity meets practical application. I'm Deon Singh and I'm Jason Pasco. Together we dive deep into the world of solution focus, exploring its transformative power across a variety of contexts. Come join us each month as we engage in enlightening conversations with experts and practitioners who are applying solution focus in their unique environments. Whether you're looking to enhance your personal life, professional practice or community projects, our discussions will provide you with valuable insights and actionable ideas. Tune in to discover how you can implement solution focus practices in your own context, unlocking new possibilities and creative solutions. Let's embark on this journey of exploration and innovation together. If you like this podcast, leave us a review and subscribe now so you don't miss an episode of Towards Solutions. Bickey, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Really looking forward to this conversation. This is our first time meeting. So really looking forward to getting to know your bit and hearing about what you do. You see the founder of relation spaces you've also written and you also have been podcasting yourself. Thanks for taking the time to have a chat with us. It's my absolute pleasure to be here with both of you. Bickey, I am really interested in the work you're doing and I've seen that the work from the individual space right through to the leadership space in schools with what you're doing. But what I'm curious about is why do you love the solution focus approach? Well, I mean, I think the question for me is how could I not possibly love the solution focus approach? You know, and I've been feeling that way ever since I was first introduced to it and no, my goodness, it probably dates back to I'm dating myself a little bit, but it probably dates back to like 1995 or something like that. I was studying solution focus at the time with at the University of Toronto with Dr. Ron Warner. And well, you know, on the surface, there were a lot of those little enticing things like it's very brief and you know, you can get a lot done in a session and you don't have to have a lot of sessions and all of that. But really, the first I would say is that that whole solution focus mindset, right? Getting it getting ourselves ready to be present in that conversation and really thinking about empathizing, really trying to understand what the individual brings to the session and recognizing that they are the experts in their lives. They may not realize it at the time, but on some level, they know it. And we just have to kind of hold their hands and help them to kind of get there. And I just love that about solution focus that we're just essentially, you know, it's not that we're incidental in the conversation, but we're really just facilitators to progress and possibility. That's the way that I see solution focus and what I love about it. And the other piece of solution focus that is really important to me is the whole idea of language of change, you know, that we're focusing on every word that we say and how we formulate these words to help people find progress and possibility. And you know, I'm a trial individual person. I grew up with English, French, and Spanish. So for me, my entire life, I've been looking at words and looking how they relate and how they compare and contrast and why people use certain words over other words. So to be exposed to a therapeutic approach that does that and values the use of language to me was just huge. So I guess those are the two key areas that seem to stand out for me right now. I'd love to hear about how you're applying it now in your context. So, you know, I grew up in my career. I really kind of had two converging careers. One was in education and the other psychology. So I'm a trained therapist, but I also in the school system for many years, teacher, counselor, administrator, consultant, all of those things in the school system. And while I was there working from within and I was using solution-focused practice, both as a therapist and as a counselor, I just realized how effective it also was in classrooms as a communicative practice. And so I started teaching it basically to whoever wanted to listen. It was to staff and educational assistants and administrators and students. And I started with my own school and then I went started going around the whole region teaching all the schools. And as I was teaching it, some of these counselors were coming to me and saying, "Vicki, you know, really this is just so effective. We're also teaching math or history or geography and this is really so effective in those classes." And you know, it was at that time that for me the light bulb just went off. And I realized, this is more than a therapeutic approach. This is an approach that people can use on the daily with each other. And it doesn't matter whether you're young or old. And so when I left the school system, I thought, "Well, that's what I have to keep doing." Because even though I've done many things, you know, I love solution focus and I love what it does, the impact that it has on school communities. So I continue to do that. I continue to go back into schools and teach students and staff and administrators. With students, it takes on more of an experiential approach because we can teach them the theory, but you know, it's obviously it's easier if they can apply it. And so I basically move from one collaborative exercise to another with the students. With parents and staff, I mostly do, you know, I teach them the principles of relation spaces, which are basically grounded in solution focus practice and solution focus assumptions. And I'm able to teach them the theoretical approach while giving them some very specific examples that apply to them. And you know, and we talk about dialogue and we do some practice, but not maybe not as much as with young people. And maybe I can give you an example of some of an activity that I might do in a classroom, for example. So one that that seems I seem to get a lot of good feedback on is the machine. So I'll ask students to draw a machine and the machine, you know, they don't have to be artists. It could be a line drawing, it could be anything they want. And this machine is essentially going to explain to us what it is that they want to work on themselves before they get to high school or before they get to post secondary school. And so that might be one of the topics or I might ask them, you know, what is it that they want to improve in themselves where communication is concerned before they get to high school or before they get to post secondary. And so now they're creating this machine that is essentially going to describe how that works. And so this is a preferred, it's an exercise in preferred future and and a great opportunity for students to collaborate with each other, communicate with each other. And then of course they have the option to present to the class if they want. And I've just seen some remarkable things come out of that. So I'll give you an example, one student who about a 12-year-old boy whose teacher described him as very, very quiet, never gets involved, doesn't really want to do engage very much in class. But he got right into this machine exercise and was drawing this very elaborate thing. And at the end he asked me if he could please present to the class, which apparently, according to the teacher, was a very unusual thing to happen. And so he got up there and his machine looked a little bit like a washing machine and it had an input and an output and it was just very complicated looking. But he explained that this machine would help him to figure out how he was going to gather a group of students together in high school so that they could discuss his great love for prehistoric animals and animals on the verge of extinction and that they could research these animals together and that they could talk about them and that maybe they could meet during recess and he was just going on about it and his peers were just transfixed. And he was just, he just lit up while he was telling this story. And at the end of it, I also remarked to myself how some of his peers were saying, "Wow, you know, it's amazing. I've never heard him talk like that. I didn't know that about him, you know. This activity that we've been doing together, this training that we've been doing together has really been helping me, not only to learn about myself, but also to learn about my peers." So that's the kind of idea in the student trainings. That's fantastic. Something I'm really interested in, probably where it may be all interested in, but what's that? And working in kind of the context of larger organisations, how do you, you know, where's the starting point with those, are you working with, so like individual schools, are you working with, like in the broader context? I'd love to hear a little bit more about, you know, how you start that relationship, maybe it's with the, with the school, how you get in there, how your, how your, that end of it is happening for you. Are you asking me how I get the foot in the door? Effectively, yes. Okay. So are you working with individuals? Yeah, are you working with individual schools, or is it kind of at a broader scale where it's a, I'm not sure how this system works over there, but is it like a, here it would be like a state, which oversees the education. Are you working at kind of like at a state level or with individual schools that say, "Hey, Vicki, we really want you to come and do this?" So I'm, I'm not working at a state level. So for us, we've got our Ministry of Education, which is our, our government. And then the Ministry of Education informs the school system. And then what we have is many different school boards in different regions. And school boards are the umbrellas for a number of elementary and secondary schools operating under each school board. And so mainly what I do is I work with school boards and some of the schools within that school board. And sometimes though, I, I might have independent schools engaging me. So it could be that I'm going in, you word of mouth or whatever, right into the school. But it could also be that I'm working with one of the persons at the school board level, responsible for schools. In some cases, it could be the person responsible for well-being, right? And so they're bringing me in and they're saying, we have these number of schools that we would like for you to work with. And, and is that, at the moment, is that mostly organic? Like so, people are, you know, at that board level, they're saying there's, you know, this, this really seems to work in a school. And then they're referring you to other other boards and schools. Is that? So just to give you an idea, I mean, some of our school boards are so large. So the school board that I worked for, for example, was so large that we had. Oh my goodness, like 300 elementary schools and about 140 secondary schools, something to that effect. So gives you an idea of how large a school board could be. So it could be that they say, this year we have a budget for X number of schools. So we'd like you to address those schools. And the next year we'll have another budget. And, you know, there's always a limited budget in school systems. You never, you know, there's, there are never excess dollars for anything. So I basically just keep an open mind and, and whatever comes my way. I try to develop the relationships and, and it's getting it's getting the word out. So you know that I'm also out there. I'm on social media and all of those things. So I try, I try as much as possible to get the word out. But I find that once that's I've gone to schools and I've done the training that there's usually a pretty positive feedback. To be able to support subsequent trainings after that. Yeah. I love the idea of training at every level. So not just leadership, but you're working with children with parents. And with the school leadership. I think that's a really, it's comprehensive, I guess, isn't it? And it would be really interesting to see the impact of that. Honestly, it's just me putting on my, my many hats because, you know, like I say, I've, I've been a therapist, but I've also been a teacher. So there's that part of me that feels very comfortable in a classroom, right? And I, I've been, I've been a teacher and I've also taught teachers. So I feel very comfortable with that. And I've been an administrator and done the same. So it's, it's not difficult for me to, and of course, my solution focused hat takes me everywhere. So I, I just feel comfortable going into the school system and doing whatever they ask me to do. And, and you know, as long as obviously it's within the parameters of solution focus because that's where I met. Yeah. I think that's brilliant because I had a similar question written down to what to do because solution focus applies at every level. Right, right. What is it that you think administrators need to hear that might be different toward a school principal needs to hear that might be different to what middle leaders need to hear that might be different to what teachers need to hear or parents. Because I know what it's like to, to, to go in and do almost whatever they ask you to do with the solution focused hat on, but finding the message for the groups, what works for you. So I always sort of keep in mind that, you know, what is the best for the child? And when I say child, I mean of any age. So I always keep that in the forefront of my mind. And it doesn't matter whether I'm speaking to a parent or a teacher or an administrator at the end of the day, we're all here for children for children. And, you know, I, I want us regardless of what it is, what, you know, where we're applying our communication skills with young people. I always want us to think about what is it that we're doing so that we're not judging and evaluating young people, but we're helping to discover the change in their lives. It's always important for me to, to keep that in mind is that, you know, let's be evaluating our young people less. Let's be entering into the power differential less with young people. Let's be judging them less. Let's be less worried about whether they're doing right or wrong. And let's honor what it is that they're bringing to the conversation and to the scenario. That will help them to celebrate themselves so that they can continue to bring their best selves to that conversation. That's basically my message, right? If we can do that as adults, if we can say, OK, I'm not the authority in this conversation. There's no power differential. There is a one on one here. I trust that this young person is the expert in their lives and that they have a lot to say and that I need to listen with an open mind. So I, I trust that I need to give them a voice, but not just, oh, you know, we, you know, we want to hear your ideas and all this sort of thing. I mean, I mean, a real voice where we really listen and maybe they can't have everything they want, but maybe we can co-create some sort of understanding between each other. That, that is the basic message. And then of course it's going to vary a little bit, you know, whether you're in the home or whether you're in a classroom. But at the end of the day, it's, it's a, it's a message of respect because when young people feel respected and heard and validated essentially, they feel safe. They want to be there and they want to enter into the conversation, right? A young person who is feeling judged and who's feeling that, you know, at the drop of a pin, we're going to tell them that what they've just done is wrong and we're going to punish them. They don't want to enter into a conversation with us. They don't want to tell us what's on their mind. They're going to be defensive. They're going to act out. They're going to do all of those things. But we're not going to get honesty from them. And so that's, that's really where my head is at. Let's, let's have focus on what works with young people. Let's hear what it is that they really want for real. Yeah. And, and let's have those conversations when we can do all of those things, the conversations are so rich. Right? And we can engage in those beautiful solution-focused conversations. But you know, when parents say to me, for example, I don't know what it is. I know you're telling us that we should talk with our kids, but they don't want to talk. They don't want to have anything to do with me. And it's true. Sometimes our kids don't want to have anything to do with us. But let's take that as an opportunity to look within and ask ourselves, what is the relation space that we are creating with this young person to be able to have those meaningful conversations? And to me, when I speak to a relation space, especially as what I really mean by that is a solution for this space. And so, yeah, I don't know if I've answered your question. That's okay, because there's so many more now. You mentioned that I thought, thank you. I loved hearing about the conversations with young people, conversations with parents. You mentioned something at the beginning, Vicki, about helping people prepare for these conversations. And we talk about in solution focus, practice, pre-session change. But what's the pre-conversation preparation that you talk to parents or teachers or administrators about? So, that was essentially how I developed the six principles of relation spaces. I was looking for a way to efficiently and effectively get parents, especially, well, I wrote the book for parents, but I use it with staff as well. I was trying to get them into that solution focus mindset very effectively and efficiently. And so, I came up with these six words to encapsulate all of that. And so, that's how I come to that conversation. So, it's reflection, strength, success, action, noticing, and hope. And with those six principles, I'm basically able to cover most of solution focus, but in a very practical way. So I'm not getting overly theoretical with parents. Parents don't come to have a learning session with me to get too much theory. They want to know what it is that they can do. And so, that's the idea behind it. So, the reflection principle is the principle that helps us wrap our heads around how are we going to bring ourselves to this conversation. How is it going to be more of a strength-based conversation rather than a deficit-based conversation? Right? If I enter the conversation with this notion that I'm having trouble with this student, I've had a lot of conflict with this student recently. I don't think it's going to be an effective conversation. Then likely it won't be an effective conversation. Whereas if I come in with a strength-based lens and I try to look for the best in the student and I say, "Okay, what does this student actually bring to my class that is a value? What can I actually point out to the student that is working for them in this class?" And so on and so forth. Then likely it will be a much better conversation and it'll end in a positive way where I will be feeling better as a teacher and they will be feeling better as a student. So the reflective piece is about having that, as I was talking about before, no-cower differential, one-on-one inquiry-based, lots of questions trying to avoid the advice giving, trying to avoid the judgment and that kind of thing. When I speak to the strength-based principle, for example, that's about exception finding and exception orientation. Right? What has worked in the past? What is working today? Even within the problem scenario, what is one small nugget of opportunity that we can find in there? Right? And what can we do to improve how we're feeling and what we're experiencing right now and what have we done in the past to contribute to that decision today? So that's so I can go on and on with the principles, but that gives you a bit of an idea of what I'm working with. Wonderful. So question number three. Okay. I suppose you were at the supermarket and you were doing what you normally do there, putting things in your trolley and you bump into your next door neighbor. And your next door neighbor says, "So, Vicki, I've heard you do this solution-focused thing. What is it? How would you describe it?" I think I would say, you know, think about a conversation that you've had in the past, any conversation at all, where you walked away really feeling noticed, really feeling appreciated, and really feeling like you mattered unconditionally. That solution-focused. Wonderful. That's very cool. My mind's. Yes. Going over time now. What's, so if they would ask you then, so what do you do that leads to that? What's the input? That's a good question. I totally agree that that's the value from, you know, what is it that you, you know, how do you describe what you do that leads to that? So let me give you an example. It's about walking into a class where I know the teacher is burnt out and saying to the teacher, "Tell me what you're proud of. Only what you've done is a teacher, historically, that you're really proud of, a lesson that really worked for you. What was it about the lesson that really worked for you?" Now, this is, remember that this is a teacher that may have been recently reprimanded because they're so burnt out, they're just not able to do their job, right? And so I say, "You know what? I'm going to come back and I'm not here to evaluate in any way, shape or form, but I'm going to come back and I'm going to, I want to see you do something in your lesson, just anything, something that has brought you pride in the past. I want to see that." And then, and I know that they're having a class that is very behavioral. I know that they're having a class that isn't working out. And so at the same time, when I come back into the class, I say to the students, I say, "Wow, I hear that some amazing stuff has been happening in this class. I hear that you guys are just a fantastic class and that there are things that I can really learn here. So I'm going to be a fly on the wall and I'm just going to observe from the back. Don't worry about me. I just want to see what you're doing, right? And so I go and I sit at the back and then I watch. And usually what's happening in that class is amazing things. Firstly, because I've asked the teacher to show me what they're proud of. And secondly, because I've told the students that they're great. And so now they want to show me their best selves. They want to show what they can do. And you know, am I come back to the class after and tell them, "Wow, this was a really amazing class, both to teacher and students." And I might say to them, "I'd like you to tell me and I'm going to write down. I'd like you to tell me all of the things that worked in that class because I saw many things. But I'd like to hear it from you. So I start writing down what worked and all of the students are sharing. And I ask the teacher to share too." And we talk about that. And usually in a conversation like that, the class is very engaged and the teacher is sitting there with a smile on their face. So that is some of what I do. That is some of what I do. And then when I come away from that, I'll go back to the teacher and I'll say, "Well, you know, what would you like now? What would you like to see happen next? What do you think can happen next?" And we'll have that conversation. And so we're essentially, you know, dealing with what works and dealing with what it is that's wanted. That's fantastic. So Rich, one of the reasons why we started the podcast is we wanted people who listened to it to be able to walk away with something that they could go try in their world, a solution-focused idea. What could you teach us and listeners that they could go away and try? I love what ensue used to do and I've tried it a lot myself and I found when I was an administrator in schools, I used to get all of the big problems coming my way, right? Students who were violent and students who were using and dealing and all sorts of things. And of course, these students are used to being labeled and they really don't want to communicate. They're used to being punished. And so what ensue used to go into these correctional facilities where she'd have a lot of these students. And she would say to them, "Wow, she engaged in conversation with them and she would say to them, "Wow, you know, how come nobody ever told you how helpful you are? How come nobody ever told you how kind you are?" Because as they would talk, of course, she would be pulling these things out. And I used to do that with my students who were experiencing such difficulty. I would often opt not to suspend them out of school if they needed to be suspended. Firstly, I would avoid suspension, but if they had to be suspended, I would have them stay in the office for a few days. Because it would give me an opportunity to talk with them. And I would say, ask them just those same questions as we would get into conversation. I'd say, "Wow, you know, that was so nice. That was so kind of you to help your friend like that. How can nobody ever told you you were so helpful?" And so they wanted to talk with me. And it didn't mean that that was going to change them forever, but they were productive conversations so that the next time that they had the urge to fight, that they would come back to me and say, "Miss, you know, I really want to clobber this kid today. Help me not to do it. Help me to find that part of myself that is going to keep myself, that is going to control the urge to fight." And so I would say, let's remember to find those kinds of opportunities more with young people. To notice the little things that they do and that they say, and to say things like, "Wow, how come nobody ever said that?" Because it opens up a productive conversation where they see themselves as resilient. And they want to do more of it and they know that they can do it because they've done it before. Wonderful. I've got a question and it relates to the burnt out teacher who's classroom you went in and observed. That's okay. And I'm sure it was a real person, but there's some interesting research that's been done here in Australia, around secondary traumatic stress in educators. So, Vicarious trauma. And one of the things that really interests me is what solution-focused conversation does for the practitioner. And I've been, I worked with a group of 19 middle leaders last year and we had four hours together, 75 minutes, 75 minutes, 90 minutes. And I used Dr. Sarah Smock Jordan's solution-building inventory pre-imposed. And we saw more than a 10% change in mindset in just four hours of training. The impact of secondary traumatic stress in educators can be compassion fatigue and they kind of just. They've got kids coming to them with things, they've got now got colleagues coming to them with things and they kind of just meet in the sandwich and they're carrying a whole bunch of stuff. How have you seen helping teachers have solution-focused conversations, whether it's with peers or with students? How have you seen that benefit? Because we know the research talks about Vicarious resilience, Adam Froes research with. I don't believe in child protection workers, decreasing burnout, increasing Vicarious resilience. How have you seen it play out? So, my own experience has been largely qualitative, right? To be able to see the impact. So, an example would be administrators who are really, really struggling with teachers at staff meetings. They don't really want to be there, they've had a long enough day, don't ask them to stay longer hours. And what would happen is that you'd have teachers basically sitting at the back of the meeting marking papers. Because they don't want to learn, they don't want to listen. They know that they're just being fed information and why should they even be there? Now they've got other things they need to go and they've got to need to leave the school and get on with their families and all the rest of it. My experience is that when we bring solution focus to schools specifically to administrators and then the administrator can then facilitate solution focus practice with their staff is that engagement in meetings just completely increases. They stop with the papers, they get involved, they realize again that they have a real voice that the administrator really wants to hear what they have to say. And they realize that this whole idea behind prioritizing communication as a feature of well-being, you know, when we feel better, we develop better relationships were more successful, that it's real. It's not just about having that well-being day or that well-being activity, it's real. And so teachers engage. So my experience is mainly qualitative, right? I don't have empirical evidence of my own, but I have seen, I have seen significant change and especially in my conversations with administrators and with teachers. Wonderful. Thank you. I'm going to ask about the ripple, the ripple of these conversations. Because we know there is one, right? We know that if you're having holding these spaces and you're having these conversations and it benefits you and it benefits person you having the conversation with. What have you noticed about the reports of these conversations in your work with schools? So, you know, ripple effect. I mean less suspensions, more parent engagement, more student engagement, more success at school for students. They're not running out of the bell at the end of the day, right? And parents are more involved in the school, coming out to the school, coming out to events. Administrators are less frustrated, you know, they're dealing with teachers that they're normally butting heads with all the time. Suddenly that's going to change. There's no need to bug heads because it's not about, you know, what we want you to do and what you have to do. But it's more about a co-creation of a negotiation essentially of what can work and what we can do together to build. Right? So, I think that all in all positive things happen, right? The ripple effect is huge. The issue is that not every school is doing this. Right? Not every but not every school is doing this. We have a lot of solution focused practitioners out there in the world. We have solution focused researchers doing, you know, conducting studies in schools. A lot of amazing people, Dr. Cynthia Franklin in Texas conducted this amazing study with alternative kids at the Garza High School. We've got all the work that Johnny Kim has done in schools as well. I mean, the research is a bounding. The issue is how can we really get it out there? So it's happening in more schools. Right? And so that we can have some semblance of consistency. We need consistency. And we need people to celebrate really just to celebrate communication as a priority. Right? Because a lot of people don't even prioritize communication, let alone solution focused communication. Right? People think, oh no, it's all about the subject or the topic or the content. And that, you know, communication is just the fluff. But without positive communication, we can't build those relationships. And we can't get the content done effectively. So, so we need to wrap our heads around how we're going to move solution focus into schools so that it's more widespread and more consistent. So what's what's worked for you in doing that so far? Which part of that? The of getting into it was kind of the foot in the door question that I asked. Yeah. And that's something I guess that I'm really interested in is how do we get into more organized. how do we help people to be more solution focused, not just in our own communities, but also on a wider in our societies. So I'm interested in what you've found has worked. That sounds like a very, you're passionate about that mission of spreading it and getting it into more schools and the ideal is that everybody is doing it. What have you found that's worked as far as getting into more schools and spreading it and might be in my context, spreading it with more organizations? What have you found that's worked? So one of the pieces that I've been, so I'm involved with the solution focus brief therapy association and as you're both with the Australasian association I understand. And one of the key factors that we're trying to work with is to broaden the scope of the streams of solution focus and how it's being used in the world throughout the globe and in different streams. So in therapy, in coaching, in education, in healthcare, etc., etc. And so we're really trying to broaden that scope so it's no longer the conversation that we used to have many years ago about this is a quote unquote therapeutic practice. It's a much more open conversation now. It's not that we're trying to change solution focus. We're not trying to change it. We just want people to be more aware of how it's being used in different contexts. And so I think that that's really important for solution focused associations around the world to spread that information, that we are using solution focus in a variety of different contexts, including education and that it's part of the work. And I think, Deon, I think that's a way in which we can get the message out. We can all get the message out and sort of on a larger scale, right? And I also feel that we need to look at solution focus perhaps from a at a government scale to say, and some governments have taken it on and to say, look, if we really want to put our money where our mouth is, if we really want to say we support well-being in schools and we support relationship building in schools because we know that everybody will be more successful, then let's put our funding there, right? Because it's very frustrating when school leaders and system leaders are saying, we're only getting X funding. That's all we're getting, right? And so I think that we need to speak more openly and candidly about how kind of funding can be helpful and useful so that we can get out there and do the work in schools and in organizations as well. Fantastic. It's already got me on another role thinking about how we might do it. As an associate, you know, promote it to particular. I like to word streams. I think that's a really a nice way to capture, you know, a way or an area that solution focus practices might be used. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think everybody's open to it and speaking along those lines, you know, I've seen that more and more with the kind of professional learning that is, you know, coming forward in the variety of workshops that are being offered in through the associations and so on. I can see that everybody is pretty well celebrating that model right now. Hmm. I'm really, I'm really interested in. So in talking with you, you know, there's a lot of you, obviously a very passionate and a lot of emphasis on the relationship. And then, you know, maybe it's not separate, but then we'll, you know, you've got solution focus, the solution focused approach. Do you think that your, your approach is, you know, relationships is so valuable. It's the thing that we need to be able to do all of these, you know, to get better outcomes for children in school, things like that. And then solution focused approach becomes the vehicle to have the best kind of relationships. Is that a fair way to summarize what you, the way that you think about it or do you think, you know, solution focused approaches the way is the, is what people need to be doing. And then, you know, maybe it's a spin off of that is that we have better relationships. Is that kind of makes sense in what I'm asking? I think that, you know, I definitely, I, I celebrate relationships as, as a way to get anything done, productive relationships. But, you know, I, I really do believe in solution focused communicative approach where people can speak in a solution focused manner and communicate using a solution focused mindset on a daily basis, right? So the way that we think of solution focused as therapists to say, I'm the therapist, you are the client. And this is how I'm approaching the therapeutic relationship. It's not that dissimilar in conversation, right? We can use a lot of the same practices and principles in conversation. We just have to transfer them over, right? So they're not going to seem quite as formal. But it's, it's the same type of mindset, it's the same type of energy that goes into that conversation as we use in a therapeutic environment. Does that sort of answer your question? I'm not sure. Not sure. I'm not too sure if I, if there was a correct, I usually tell people, you know, there's no right or wrong answer. I'm interested in, because I know, you know, there's obviously been a lot of different views about the value of the relationship. And I would say that, you know, I think it's, the relationship is critical. And what I like about solution focused approaches is that it has this compounding effect of, you know, you might start a conversation with somebody in, in, in an hour, if you've had a solution focus conversation with that person, your relationship is probably better. And stronger and they feel like, you know, they've been hurt and that you've that there's a higher level of trust. So I think it's definitely has this compounding, compounding effect and I was just curious about, you know, your thoughts on, you know, and maybe there isn't a a priority, but I was just interested in, you know, your thoughts on, you know, that relationship and solution focus approach. So yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah. I really do, I think of solution focus not as not as much as a therapeutic model, as I, I mean, it is a therapeutic model, but because I use it so much in communication, I really think of it as a communicative model. And so, and I feel that, you know, for example, anything that we talk about when we talk about small signs and small steps, you know, to teachers can use that so easily in in classrooms and in the educational system, right? Because every student learns differently, every child learns differently and we want to celebrate how they learn. And if we can point out to them both verbally and non verbally, everything that they're achieving in that moment, even if something really, really small, even if they're really struggling with that mathematical equation, right? But there's something that they get. And we can capitalize on that in conversation, right? That is the small sign. That is the small step. That's where we value and celebrate learning and we focus on learning rather than evaluation rather than on mastery, right? Everybody has to get the A. It's not like that, right? And we know that in solution focus. Not everybody has to get to that number 10 on the scale. The 10 is not for everybody. The 10 means something different to everybody, right? And it's the same thing with learning. And so those little nuggets, right, even though we're not using them in the same way, although we do use scaling with with our staff, we use scaling with young people, we use scaling with everybody. But if we if we see how they can be used in conversation, right? It doesn't have to be just for the therapy room, right? That's essentially my message. It's a it's an interesting challenge that I think, you know, we have is that we sometimes need to fit solution. Well, I find that I need to fit solution focus, practice into meeting a criteria to be able to then get into an organization to be able to to be able to use it. And my mind, forgive me because I was my mind was off wondering while you were answering some of those questions. But I'm interested in the context. If you have applied it in the been able to apply it in the context of like performance appraisals for staff. And if you haven't, how would you, you know, how would you approach that? So I mean, unfortunately in Ontario, Canada, we're going to be able to do that. we can't apply it to performance appraise to formal performance appraisals because they are developed by the government. But that would be a way to work with the government to make their appraisals more solution focused. But we can have, you know, I used to engage in a lot of those kinds of conversations with staff even before the performance appraisal was complete. And I would ask a lot of the solution focused questions in the co-creation of that performance appraisal. So it can definitely be done. It's unfortunate that for us here we can't change the documentation. Maybe eventually we'll be able to do that. But for the time being, no. But we can certainly have the conversations to support the appraisal. What's, you know, for listeners and somebody might be in a similar situation where they're needing to use. And this fits in so many different contexts for different things. But, you know, in some contexts we have to use a, you know, people need to use a referral form or, you know, an intake form that might not be solution focused. I'm interested in your, how you would, so, you know, you're using the surprise that's not overly solution focused. What is it that you're doing that's making, you know, where we're kind of bound by some things. But how are you doing it differently that's making it more solution focused? Do you think? So, I mean, for me, you know, because I'm going into the school, it's not, you know, we're not dealing with a formal process as might, you know, a social worker might have to have, you know, the formal paperwork and would have to submit the formal paperwork. For example, in crisis intervention or things like that, I don't have to do that because I'm going into the school. I can create whatever forms I want, really, other than the teacher performance appraisal. But, you know, I can create forms for students that help them to wrap their heads around answering a particular kind of question, for example. And I can have some solution focused questions that are where they would need to respond in writing. If they're working through a problem or if they're working through a scenario, and I could, for example, give them that. So, I have the freedom and flexibility in that regard that it's not that whatever I have put in writing, I now need to worry about whether or not the authorities are going to be okay with it. But I do understand that, you know, in some interventions, the forms and what needs to be submitted is very much, you know, it's programmed essentially. And the expectation is there that you have to essentially follow those markers. And I understand that. And the only thing that I would say about that is, again, we do still have the freedom to have the solution focused conversations in addition to what we're submitting and writing. Right. That is always our freedom that the kind of conversation that we have is really our choice. And then if individuals have to respond to certain kinds of questions in writing or we have to additionally ask those questions, then we do that too. But I think we have a certain amount of freedom in conversation. Great conversation. I want to look back to something that you said early on. I'll come up a couple of times in my thinking is you mentioned, you know, working with teachers, whether it's you saw how useful this was and you could see how to apply in a maths class or an English class or is there a solution focused pedagogy and what might it look like? That's a really good question. Are you are you open to developing one? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good question. So far. I don't think there is so far. It's it's a question of training and trying different exercises and trying different approaches that may work. And helping staff to keep an open mind about incorporating those kinds of ideas into their day, not just for their students, but for themselves. And and it could be that, you know, so for example, over the time I've developed, you know, activities and resources and things like that that can be used. And you know, I'm sure that other educational practitioners have as well and other solution focused practitioners have as well. And maybe those could be in some way gathered together to be published as a pedagogy. But I don't think we're there yet. I don't think we're there yet. I think that we can be we can certainly be there. But but I haven't seen anything to that effect yet. Based on what you've done, what have you seen teachers pick up the most in terms of solution focus practice or tools in their classroom? I think it's the whole idea of, you know, you know, there is to me it's the variations on the miracle question. Right. Suppose things are better. Suppose things are just as I want them to be. What will that look like? And you know, what will my day look like? How will it play itself out? You know, I think that when teachers have the opportunity to talk about that, it just completely shifts their mindset and their way of thinking about what it is that they really want. So to me, that's that's been huge. It's been a large, you know, many of our conversations have been based on that. And with parents as well, you know, because you've got parents that are very, very frustrated with their with their young people. And so it really helps them to not just to figure out what it is that they want, but to see their own resilience as parents. But at the same way that the teachers see their own resilience that, you know, nobody's perfect. Nobody's going to have a perfect day. We all have our ups and downs. We try our best. And there are a lot of good things that we're doing. Even when things aren't working out. So it's also about, you know, what can we find within the problem? You know, everybody thinks, oh, you know, we've got, you know, solution focus practitioners have to shed the problem and move to the solution. I don't see it that way. I think sometimes within the problem, there's a lot of learning. Right. Within the problem, there are a lot of really good things that are happening. What are those good things? And not just that, but what part of the problem do we actually want to keep? Because we don't always want to get rid of the whole problem. Right. So I do think that there's, to me, those are the kinds of critical conversations that when, for example, if I'm speaking to a full staff and they'll ask some of those questions, those are some of the critical conversations that will end up having together. Where they realize, oh, wait a second, there are different ways of looking at this. There are different ways of looking at reality of looking at my life and my experience. And I don't have to be embedded in that problem focus. Right. I can, I can talk about my problem. I can talk about what's going on. And of course, inevitably we know as solution focus practitioners that regardless of how we formulate our questions and regardless of how forward thinking they are, we always hear about the problem anyway. As we ask those questions. So we can talk about the problem, but to be able to talk about the problem with possibility with hope. Right. And so I think, you know, when I think of the groups that I work with and how they walk away at the end of the session, you know, when, when parents walk away, usually I'm talking with parents in the evening, when they walk away at the end of the evening. I see a lot of hope and I hear a lot of hope. And same with staff and same with with young people. Right. There's a lot of hope there. So yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. Very exciting. So wow. Thank you. Thank you. Talked about a lot of stuff, you know, and from, from the range of educators that you work with the depth of what you've done with all of those different groups. I love that, that what you said there, that whether it's parents, whether it's staff, whether it's students, whether it's administrators, they're walking away with hope. And I think this has been a really hopeful conversation. And I want to thank you Jason. Thank you, Deon. Thanks to both of you. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much. So people who would like to find out more about what you're doing, maybe get in touch. What's the, and you mentioned in your book, where's the best place for people for us to direct people to find out that information. You can pretty well get all the information by going to my website, Relation Space. at.com and [email protected]. And, you know, I'm also open to email [email protected]. I'm always open to conversation, so there is that as well. If you're interested in reaching out to both Terran me 'cause Terran and I, you know, we do our podcasts together and our relationspaces powerbers, but we do have an email, goal solutions [email protected]. So you can reach us that way too. But really, if you go to my website, you'll get all the information you need and you can even send me a message there and I'm always happy to respond. - Sorry. - Let's not forget sfetay.org. I need to put in a plug for the association. - Absolutely. - As an T-day.org. (laughs) - Absolutely. We'll put all that in the notes. But yeah, thank you so much for your time. It's been such a rich conversation. And as with a lot of, or if not all of these conversations, I can probably speak for both of us, but we usually go away going, wow, that was so much to go away and think about. And so thank you for your time and wisdom. It's been a much appreciated. - Thank you so much. Really appreciate you both. Really happy to have had this conversation. 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