Speaker 1People don't win because they are smart, they win because they're respected and that does not always mean you're light. I spent my career going from Vanguard to Goldman Sachs running a portfolio of companies and I've been disrespected at every single step and guess what? I'm still winning so you can too. If you're sick of being overlooked, doubted or people mistaking your kindness for weakness, today's episode is for you. I'm Cody Sanchez, this is The Big Deal Podcast, let's go. Today we did something different. I got asked questions by my actual team about things they've seen in me leading companies, finding respect, getting disrespected and what I do about it. So if you like this episode, tell us, we'll do more.
Speaker 2How should someone carry themselves to command respect? We
Speaker 1make snap judgments on a human in about the blink of an eye. They say half to a fourth of the blink of an eye. So the very first thing that you have to do that nobody likes but is actually the true truth is to be honest with yourself. The truth is the way that you dress, the way that you stand, the way that your posture is, the way that your hand movements are, before you ever open your mouth once, you've already been judged. And people don't like that these days because it shouldn't be, you know, don't judge a book by its cover. It shouldn't matter what the outside looks like. That's just categorically not true. You know, if you are hunched over looking small, hands in your lap, sort of, you know, Bernie Sanders during the inauguration and you're trying to get a job interview, it's not going to go very well for you. If you're really quiet and small and, you know, sort of diminutive in your movements or mannerisms and you're trying to get a big, serious, intense job, salary, deal, whatever, it's probably not going to go very well for you. And so you could actually, you don't have to fake it till you make it. You could just actually stand in like you're the main character as opposed to an MPS or a sideshow. And so I wish I would have learned that earlier. It's why a lot of times, even if you're freaked out, the way that you stand, the way that your posture is not only is going to make you feel more powerful, but it's going to make somebody else mistake you for more powerful than you actually are.
Speaker 2When do you choose to clap back and when do you let it go?
Speaker 1People respect people who are unruffled and unrialed. And the second you start having an emotional reaction that seems unregulated, especially if you're a woman, I hate to say, people immediately will dismiss you. It's not right. It's not fair. It's just is. And so what I've realized is if you're going to clap back, it better be with humor. It better be unemotional. It better be facts, not feelings. Otherwise, you are just going to stir the pot more so that you have more coming to the top. And I don't think you typically want that. So I've for years now, you know, my motto has been if I want somebody's respect, I will only ever throw respect. And I don't think I'm going to throw respect. I'm going to throw respect out and not hate out because usually hate out gives you more hate back. You just spend more time on the thing you want more of in the world. And so if you want more respect, spend more time respecting others. You know, a good rule of thumb, I think when things aren't going your way or somebody's really rude or terrible to you or you feel like you've been slighted is just do the opposite to somebody. Like every time somebody talks shit about me on the Internet, I do the opposite. I go and congratulate somebody. I go and write a nice little DM to somebody. I say, hey, I love what you're building over there because I just. Feel like it balances the universe out. And so every time I get a little hate, I give a little love and I keep going that way. And I think Dolly Parton was an incredible example of this. You know, people would look at the boobs and the hair and the outfits and think she wasn't very smart. And then she said, but by the time that I was done, I got the money and ran. And I think that's part of the game is like, do you want to be emotional and unregulated or do you want to win? And I was just talking to one of our executives about this today. He kind of came all hot and bothered about it and said, this person is, you know, a scumbag and they're not ethical. And, you know, we don't want to operate like that. And I said, well, hey, you know, wouldn't that be hard if we could only do business with people that we agreed with them on everything? Wouldn't that be tough if every person that we engaged with sold to, bought from, et cetera, we had to have the same set of moral principles with? It wouldn't be tough if you had to only work with perfect people because then, by because there is no such thing as a perfect person. And so, in fact, what we should probably do is not be a moral absolutist where you think that everything you're doing is right and what everybody else is doing is wrong. And instead, take the things that you can learn from another person without having to take all their values on. Don't take somebody else's ethics or morals on top of you. Just take the things that let them win and leave all the emotional baggage to the side. That's what people who have a lot of respect for themselves do. They don't let somebody who when do you choose to work through differences and when is it time to part ways? Those who respect themselves also require the people they work with to respect themselves and the values that the company has. I always like the old Warren Buffettism where he says, you can lose me money, you can make mistakes, but you can't lose a shred of reputation. For the first two, I'll let you do it as long as you keep not repeating it. For the third one, I'll fire you. And so I do think your name is one of the hardest things for you to keep intact. Any chance you can to make sure your name continues to grow is worth it. I can think of two instances in my career where somebody wrote something, it was my fault because I was their leader, but somebody wrote something wrong on the internet. One was that I worked at Goldman Sachs for seven years instead of two. And another one was passive income doesn't exist, but we had previously said passive income does exist. Passive income is a tax categorization. It does exist as a tax categorization. There's active income, there's passive income. And anyway, we were talking about like get rich quick, passive income, but I just got blown up for that all over the internet. And both times I didn't write them. And both times those people no longer work with me. Why? Because hyperbolic stuff, it really does hurt your reputation in some way, shape or form. And I've had to have people talk about that for years because of a tiny little thing. Reputationally, we said online. And so I think you got to really try to protect who you are. Now, you should never fake it because everybody can feel that. And it's too hard to do for the long term anyway. It's like, you know, one of the CIA's tricks is you never try to figure out if somebody's lying in the morning after a cup of coffee. You always do it in the evening after a couple of glasses of wine because it's way harder to keep face throughout the duration of the day. It's the same thing with this. You want to figure out who people are and you only want them to stick with you if they're going to increase your reputation, not decrease it. How have you personally commanded respect in male dominated tech and finance rooms? You got to know the game that you signed up for. And if you want to be a serious executive or C-suite, for the most part, you're going to have to learn how to have a little bit of masculine energy. And it doesn't mean that you can't wear the dresses and, you know, the bright lipstick and the makeup and all of that stuff. But the more symmetrical, we'll say that instead of beautiful, when you're more symmetrical, you make more money on average. When you're better dressing, you make more money on average. And this is like all things being equal. But at some point, you also got to be careful because when you look a certain way or different than everybody else, you're going to get immediately judged. I mean, there's a reason that people think that Kim Kardashian is not very smart. And she's, by all metrics, quite smart. She's a billionaire multiple times over from multiple businesses. So are all of her sisters. So is her mom. And she's a billionaire multiple times over from multiple businesses. So is, you know, and like one time for one of them in the family, you could say, well, you know, it was the sex tape. Well, it was, you know, Hollywood. But for the whole family to create like eight or ten hundreds of millions of dollars a year business, if not billion dollar businesses, like they're smart. But the way that they look makes people not take them very seriously. And so I think if you're going to play the corporate game or if you're going to be in the room with a bunch of finance dudes, you need to take that into equation. I mean, I know it all the time. I mean, on X, I can't even tell you this. This week, you know, I just got people saying, oh, she's never built a business. She doesn't have any businesses. She was never in finance. When she was in finance, she was a secretary. It was probably her husband. You know, it must have been her dad, all the things. And sometimes it really does get me down. And I try to like overly defend myself. But I think lately, like a good way to play it off is be humorous as opposed to defensive. And so I think that's a good way to play it off. You know, there's a saying in Shakespeare, which is thou doth protest too much. And sometimes when people are all railing on you, being the one that's silent, that doesn't feel like they need to respond, that's above the fray. At some point, you're a little bit like the wall upon which the waves crash upon. You just can't get a rise out of you. And that bothers people. And then if that doesn't work, you can do what my friend Brian Johnson does, which is make fun of himself. So in front of you on the internet, can you make light of it? Because he said a line to me that I love, which will teach you a lot about respect, which is when you lecture, you stand above. When you laugh, you stand alongside. And so even for your haters, could you think of them, my friend Sean Perry said, could you think of them like doubters, not haters? And maybe they're just waiting for a reason to actually come alongside you. And often them not liking you or people not respecting you is very little about you. And usually about what's going on. on in their life. And so if you can learn to just make them feel big, they won't feel the need to make somebody else feel small. So Cody, how do you balance being respected and being liked as a CEO? Well, you don't have to be liked, but you need to be respected. You don't have to like all your coworkers, but you have to respect that you need to work well alongside them. I do not think you have to be loved or liked to be a leader. Now, it's a little tough if you're hated. That's not great. But I don't always need everybody to like me as a leader. I don't think that's my job or your job if you want to be a serious person. Your job is to help people achieve the thing that they want to in life. And your job is to help them feel safe in their decision at your company or as a parent. I mean, there's a lot of similarities between leadership and parenting, I think, which as a parent, you know, we all know, you know, the parents who try to be friends with their kids, how well did that turn out? Right? You can do it when they're older, but not when you're growing up. You can't, when you're just getting to know employees, you shouldn't try to be best buds with them. Unless you guys are co-founders with equal skin in the game, equal opportunity, equal risk on the table, and about the same equal experience. Otherwise, it's okay, you need to have some some distance. And in fact, I really think with your employees, you need to allow them to have a bunch of fun and shenanigans without you. You know, I go to some of the stuff where, you know, all the employees are hanging out and drinking and going to dinner, but I try to not stay the whole time because I want people to have fun. And I don't want them to feel intimidated, or like they have to have some other sort of airs on because the boss is around. And I think that's perfectly okay. The only times I've seen it go really, really bad are where people are too scared to tell someone the truth, which is your job as a leader, because that's your buddy. And you've crossed the line. Not only that, your buddy, who is actually your employee, no longer respects you as leader, because you've muddied the line. Now they think that you're the same. And then when you have to fire them, they're going to be really confused. And so, again, like, these are lessons for serious people. If you don't ever want to manage somebody, and you don't ever want to lead, and you don't ever want to run a company, don't listen to any of this. Do whatever you want to do, have a good time with your colleagues, it's all good. This stuff is kind of hard, because it's true, and it sucks. And you're going to have a bunch of difficulty if you want to be a really serious person. And, you know, I like to think about that part from Secession, where the dad looks around the table of his kids and says, you guys are just not serious people. And I think about that quote often. My husband and I share it with each other often. And we send it to each other when somebody's being unserious. And one of the number one ways you can absolutely stop people from respecting you not being able to manage your emotions, is not being stoic under pressure. It doesn't mean you can't lose your mind and cry at a beautiful movie if that's what you're into, or you can't be moved to tears by a piece of poetry, or you can't be moved to tears by something horrific happening in life like a death or a sickness. Absolutely, you can feel that deeply. But you should also feel like when your team is really going through it and when everything is difficult and falling apart, they know they can look to you and you will not fall apart. You will be working harder than they will, longer than they will, and you'll do it with a smile on your face. That's just the fucking job. And if you don't want to do that job, then don't be a leader. Can being too present or too accessible make people respect you less? Robert Greene talks about the same thing, which is that you have to remove yourself and have an air of mystery around you, that this is a key to seduction. And seduction is really, just a form of respect. Who do we respect with the people who seduce us into thinking that they are worthy of respect and interesting and somebody that we should look up to? It's all sort of a form of seduction. And so I do think there's like a separation that's really important to have happen if you want to be respected. That's when you see everybody at work gossiping about something small. And do not participate, you know? And if somebody asks you why not or they try to do something, you know, you're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to participate. You just say, I'm not interested in talking about people or small things like this. No judgment on if you are, but that's just not something that interests me. It's creating that separation of how you're different from others. And it takes like a little degree of narcissism, right? It's like a little ego that you have to have to do this. But I do believe that if you're everywhere all the time, if you're too accessible, if you set no boundaries, then you've no longer allowed yourself to be put up as somebody to respect. And instead, sort of you've gotten off the balcony and you're in the crowd and that's very hard to see. And these are not very politically correct truths. You know, this is this is some of the dark arts of being a leader or being somebody who is respected that nobody will tell you because it doesn't sound very politically correct and nice in this world in which we value almost more than anything else, quote unquote, authenticity and quote unquote, full transparency. The problem is that people will tell you that that is what they respect. But in actuality, think about the people who have full transparency and full authenticity, just authenticity, just like play that out for a second. That would be the person that like burps in front of you constantly. Well, that's authentic. It's what they were going through in that moment. It would be the person who talks every single thing out in their head out loud. So they're just yapping nonstop. There's no silence. There's no signal to the noise to their words. That would be the person who every time they felt sad or depressed or they just explain their whole story to you. That's the person who goes all the way back in every decision to why their trauma bonded and everything that's happened to them since they were three years old. That person is not usually somebody you respect, is it? It's usually the person who's a little bit quieter, holds a boundary and probably is slightly less authentic for that. And so I always go to like the lowest common denominator to play it all the way out, which is I think of the burping in public, which I'm like, nobody needs that. But that would be fully authentic and transparent. And so if you don't want that, then think of all the different levels that come back to the thing you want before it.
Speaker 2What specific behaviors did you have to develop to earn respect and get to where you are today?
Speaker 1Yeah, you think early on in your career that it is okay for you to be really honest all the time. And so I remember early in my career, I would say things to my coworkers like, no, I don't want to go to lunch today. I have way too much to do. I just can't spend time hanging out with you guys. Or I don't have time to go to happy hour because I am slammed. And I thought that I could just be really honest. Oh, I'm not interested in all with company parties. It's just not for me. I find that kind of boring. I was just a blunt instrument and no shocker, nobody liked me. I was so unlikable because I was quote unquote, so honest, as opposed to learning to manipulate that slightly. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I'll be there tonight. I can't later this week. I really wish I could. I didn't wish I could. That's a white lie. Is that a bad white lie? I don't know, but it helped me progress my career. And probably the same for you. Marital advice too. Don't tell your pregnant wife she looks fat, no matter how many times she asks. That's a white lie. I definitely look fat. I resemble either a toad or a hippopotamus depending on the day. But I don't want to be a hippopotamus. I don't want to be a hippopotamus. But like, if he said that to me, it would end poorly with him. And so why do we think that in work and in career, it's the same thing? Like we shouldn't have these little white lies that we don't, you know, no boss, I love staying late all day, every day this week. I'm really loving it. It's probably going to get you further than like, I'm so fucking tired and over this and I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah, no shit. It's hard sometimes. You don't want to be here. I get it. But just having those little tiny white lies, can actually help you progress. And nobody will tell you that, especially in this day and age where you're not supposed to say any of that.
Speaker 2How do the best leaders communicate in a way that earns respect?
Speaker 1If you want respect, giving appropriate context is a really good way to get it. I think a lot of times what don't we respect when parents say, because I told you so, because I said so, because just listen to what I do, you know, and you're like, yeah, but, you know, I see as opposed to listening to what you say. And there's a disconnect between the two. And so I don't have respect for it. When times are tough and you don't know what to do next, it's perfectly fine to say that, hey, you know what? I don't know what to do next. We kind of didn't win at this how I wanted to. I think these are a couple of reasons why, but I'm not exactly sure what to do next. So I'm going to go sit and think about it and pull some data on it and try to figure out our next decision. That is perfectly fine. And in fact, is most of life. Oftentimes leaders don't give enough context. Like, hey, I really want you to do X, Y, Z thing. Here's why. Because it will set us up for the next two years, but we only have this time period to execute on it. A silly one right now for me is reviews for the book. We've had a crazy week this week. We launched a new book, huge book launch. Everybody's a little burnt out. It's a long week. We're tired, but we can't be done this week. Why? Because we've got to ask for reviews in the next two weeks. Because, and if you want to, you can go to ownerbook.com or you could go to Amazon ownerbeowned and leave a review and that would be amazing. And I'd love you forever. But we have to push for those reviews. during those two weeks, I told them, because it really sets up your trajectory as a highly rated book and as a best-selling book on Amazon. And it's hyper-specific to those first couple weeks on the charts. And so the next couple weeks pushing sets us up for years. So the team knows, okay, it's not just Cody annoyingly putting something else on our to-do list. There's a reason why. And a lot of time, the team just wants to know that you realize they got too much going on. And so you're not adding something just because you feel like they can continuously take the load.
Speaker 2What did you admire most in a mentor you deeply respected?
Speaker 1You always want to find mentors that have as their greatest strength, your biggest weakness. And my best mentors are typically the ones that are more manipulative, less blunt, and incredibly good at politics. Because I am a blunt force object. I am a hammer where everything looks like a nail. And it is a constant struggle for me when it comes to respect to learn how to navigate the softer side of leadership. And so I can think of one whose name was Barry at a company called State Street. I was an executive there in the finance business and he ran it. And what was so interesting about him is he almost never said exactly what he thought. He was incredibly calculated with every move. He knew every person and all the people that all the chess pieces they had on the board. And he would sort of look at work and politics. And one of the world's biggest corporations, State Street, touches one in every four dollars in the U.S. economy. And he ran at the time, I don't even know how many hundreds of billions of dollars we managed at State Street in the cash business, which is where I worked. But he would look at the chess pieces and teach me how, although what I wanted to do and thought was right was this move, because the leadership wanted this move executed, I needed to find a way to make this move win. In life, if you want to be respected, you have to realize that it's not always the most straight and narrow path that's going to get you to winning. Unfortunately, we have to have other people agree with our decision making and allow us permission sometimes. Like success is sort of like a multi gated highway. And at each stage for the highway, you got to get them to open the doors to the toll for you. And if you don't get the doors open, you won't win. Like it's not a single player game, right? This is like multiplayer game with a ton of people on the board who simultaneously are all trying to win. And you have to be the one to get them to think that your idea is their idea. And he was a master at that. And so I often like to think about whenever I have a difficult decision, picture it like a chessboard. How many people are on the board? What do they all want? What are their moves? And how could I even get them to where they want to be and have them think that it's their idea, but it's mine? And Barry's incredible at that. Another one of my mentors, Donald, is the exact same way, has worked at multiple financial companies and almost never says a word out of place. He's so precise with his language, whereas sometimes what you'll find is you'll think you gain respect by gossiping, by being a little loose with your tongue, by being a saying. And Donald will never step out of character. And why is that so fascinating? Because for somebody like me who could be kind of brash, I might tell somebody, oh, yeah, well, I'm not going to do that because that's ridiculous. And fuck those guys. Donald would never because Donald remembers you might always need somebody else. So another Robert Greene-ism is unless you're going to, if you're going to make an enemy, absolutely crush them. You must kill them. Do not make an enemy halfway. Because Donald plays that card beautifully. These days, like all these young kids who I see writing these resignation letters, super big on Instagram right now. And the resignation letter is really cute, but it's pithy and a little angry and mad and really disrespectful. Listen, it probably feels great in the moment. You don't think that I've had times where I wanted to just light the bridge on fire as I left? Hell, yeah, I did. But I didn't because I wanted to win. I didn't want to feel good in that moment. So where are you trying to just feel good and be right? And later, you'll never win because of it. And that's the diabolical side of leadership.
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