Too much, too soon

[Music] Hello and welcome to the Money Trench, the Music Industry podcast with me, Mark Sutherland. We're back after a week off for Easter and ready to take another long look at the Music Business, so let's get started. The Money Trench is supported by SoundOn. SoundOn is TikTok's all-in-one music distribution and promotion platform for artists and labels. Go to SoundOn.Global to find out more and check out the SoundOn track of the week in the TMT newsletter. And the Money Trench is also supported by Tixle. The honest ticket exchange and wait list helping artists own their audience and protect fans from Touts, go to Tixle.com to find out more and check out the Tixle gig of the week in the TMT newsletter. And we support Earth Percent, the Music Industries Climate Foundation, check earthpercent.org to find out more. And this week we're back in the studio of artist merch company Why Now Music, where we're joined by one of the most successful songwriters and producers in the biz. She's also a hit artist, and owns her own label and publishing company, while her songs have racked up over 14 billion streams on Spotify, and six UK #1 singles for the likes of Little Mix, Jess Glyn, and Clean Bandit. She's won Ivan the Velo Awards, Brits and Grammys, and this week we'll pick up the Music Producer's Guild's Inspiration Award. Please welcome the one and only, Camille Purcell. Okay, Camille, with a card. Hello, thank you so much for having me. That was a very serious intro. Well, I don't even know what to say. Sometimes when I hear stuff like that, I'm like, "Huh, like, how has that even happened?" And how fast that's actually happened to me is to be studied. I don't get how I've managed to do half of that stuff you just said, so, wow. But thank you so much. Well, congratulations on doing it. Welcome to the show. How's your music week been? My week has been interesting. I feel like I'm constantly trying to multitask at the moment. Anyone with kids knows what it's like. You're trying to literally spin a million plates. So, for me, my week is generally nonstop. I'm running on probably like two, three hours sleep at the moment. So, if I fall asleep on the sofa here, just wake me up. Well, we'll do. You wouldn't be the first full of sleep due to my interview technique. But, so, we'll see how we get on it. And you've been teasing some new music? I have, oh my gosh, yeah. You know what? I'm so excited about this because I just decided one day that I just want to like separate my music from my main page. You know what happens after a while, a lot of the time you're algorithm just gets really messed up. And I just wanted to fresh start. So, I just thought, "Why don't I just decide a new name?" Which actually everyone on the internet helped me decide it. And then they chose Kami. And then, which is actually a nickname of mine anyway. My mum calls me that. And, like, Fred again called me that and called a song Kami like I do, which I was on with him. So, it just made sense that Kami was the one. That's a separate profile now. Where all my music and my album is going to be. Is that your official artist name? That's Kami. I don't know if it's an artist name or a project name. I don't know what it is. I'm just going with the flow. But I love this era of music where you don't have to have all these rules. It doesn't need to be so like, I don't know, rigid. It can just be whatever the hell you want. And everyone can kind of decide it. So, that's been really, really fun for me at the moment. I'm teasing stuff from the album. I'm loving the response. I love that there's kind of no one there yet. I love that it feels quite secret. Because I feel very. I feel like I have no inhibitions. And usually when I post music, I feel really worried and anxious and scared. And I know everyone's watching. And I don't have any of that on this profile. So, it's making me feel really free. I kind of express it like, if I had one follower around there, I'd be so happy. Because it's just me and them. Do you know what I mean? It's a beautiful feeling. Well, I've followed you on it. So, you got more than one of them. Oh, yay! Thank you! Great stuff. Well, let's see what the rest of the music business is being up to with our round-up of the latest industry headlines. It's been a crazy week. It has been a crazy week. Yeah. And our first story comes from Music Week, which looks at the cancellation of the wireless festival in London. Festival Republic acts the event after its headline at Canoe West was denied a phase of by the government, which ruled his presence would not be conducive to the public good. Multiple sponsors had already pulled out over West history of anti-Semitic comments for which he has apologized. Camille, I'm not going to get into the ins and outs of what Canoe has done or not done with you. But you do a lot of work with hip-hop and R&B. No wireless festival this year is going to be a big deal for that community, isn't it? Yeah. 100%. I think it's so sad that there's not going to be that space. And I want to seek it so excited each year for wireless just looking at the line up. The line up they've had over the last few years have been insane. So to hear that it's not going to be on now is it's really, really sad. And I guess it's just one of those things where, you know, everyone's got to do what they feel is right for them. But I will be quite, quite sad for the community and the fact that we didn't get to express ourselves and had that space to just enjoy R&B music and hip-hop music. And celebrate artists and stuff. So it's a shame. It is a shame. But there's two sides to the coin. So where I sit with it is very much just in respect of both sides and just kind of understanding that life is life's a bit shit sometimes, you know what I mean? Yeah, that is all too true. At the moment. Do you think there's any scope for like an alternative event to step up and feel that kind of? Potentially if I can organise it in enough time booking artists is really difficult. I didn't realise this until like, you know, I'm starting to think about even my life shows now and talking to, you know, age, my agent and stuff and just figuring out how to do it and how hard it is actually to book artists. So if there's enough time for it to do it, it would be great to see something else happen. Just so we're not, you know, in a complete void of that space of people to enjoy music this year. Yeah, are you up for playing after the day? I mean, I would love to. Just call me, you know, I'll slide down. We're putting it out there in the universe, but our next story concerns another potential big music company acquisition. But whereas we normally talk about universal buying up indie companies this time is universal itself. That's the subject of a bid from billionaire Bill Ackman's Pershing Square company, which has offered around $56 billion for UMG. The major has struggled to boost its share price in recent months. It was a former stock broker. You probably understand more about this question than many people on TMT. But we won't go into the ins and outs of share prices. But does it feel like everything in the music industry is for sale at the moment? Well, I think in any industry acquisition is always going to be the name of the game. You know what I mean? It's how you get the most market share and it's how you monopolise and that kind of stuff. So it's always going to be the main driver, I think, businesses to acquire other companies. But I definitely, it's an interesting thing to see how quickly and rapidly it is happening in the music industry. I don't know. I've just been blown away, I guess, over the last three years. Even with just AI companies and how that's transforming everything. And then all these kind of acquisitions, I think, it's kind of blown me away to be honest with you. I'm just sitting back like, oh my god, what is happening? But yeah, it's the way all industries work. When you were a stock broker, people weren't really interested in investing in music then. Not so much. Not so much. I think it was one of those times when we were in the industry. And times where there was a lot of uncertainty, I think streaming had just kind of started. And there was a lot of how that works with all the different sides to streaming. And I think it just made the market quite uncertain. But I think now I think there's such a boom, especially with like, you know, there's so many figures we can look at in terms of the growth of music in the UK right now. That I think makes sense as to why this is happening. But it definitely wasn't like that back then when I was working in finance. But you're in the ages of that now. You're an independent artist. You've got your own independent company. Yeah. I mean, a lot of independent companies are just being bought on that at the moment. Does it feel like quite difficult to be independent at the moment? Oh my gosh. I think an independent artist is so hard. I think anyone who wants to act like it's not his line. You know, you do have the freedom and you have the expression that you can just do what you want to do and not have to wait around for people and make decisions. But that comes with such a hard task of doing it on your own. And trying to drive something which, you know, without that massive power of a label, it can be so difficult. So yeah, it is really, really tough. An independent company, an independent artist is just such a long road ahead of you in terms of like making that space for yourself. So I think every day it does take a lot of kind of willpower. It takes an amazing team. I think I've never understood the importance of a team more than now. Finding those people that really support you and understand your vision, understand who you are. That drives everything. And even as a company, you know, I think for me, I'm starting a couple of brands this year myself. And one thing I'm realising is how important the face of the brand is, the ethos behind the brand. It's not just about a company anymore. People don't buy into that. They buy into who is the brand and what is the brand. More than anything else. And they want to see the ups and downs. And they want to see the human side of the brand more than ever. So I find that very interesting actually. Yeah. What brands are you launching? I mean, you will see very soon. That's just a secret. I don't see a grip. I mean, I am literally trying to find ways of launching a brand now where it's just completely different to anything I've done before. And it's letting people in from the beginning. That's something that I love doing. I don't want to just kind of turn up one day and be like, "This is my thing. I want to kind of let people in the journey." So yeah, I think the game is very different now. Honestly. And one thing I love is that anyone can have success now. I love that about starting a brand or a company. I think as long as you have the right ethos and the right voice behind it, anyone can have success. There's not much gatekeeping anymore in that way. So you just kind of have to know how to market yourself. Interesting times. But yeah. Our final story now comes from Music Ally, which looks at Chartmetrics latest research into the streaming charts. Their research shows that there has been a record low of breakthrough songs in 2026. So far with just 3.5% of Spotify's global top 50 made up of songs released this year. It follows the 2025 slump which saw the year's top 10 most stream songs dominated by older releases. Can we help you on one of the world's leading hit makers? Why the hits are drying up? Have you been on holiday? No! Do you know I kind of have been on a little holiday though because I've had a couple of babies so I've been chilling last couple of years. So it's all your fault that's where there's no hits. That's literally my fault. Do you know what? It does surprise me a lot to hear this and to watch it happen because for me, I don't know, pop music is my heart and always will be. It's what gave me a career. I love all genres but there's something about pop music that just does it for me and yeah it's sad to see this. It's been very interesting watching the majority of the chart be dominated by acts from overseas especially American acts. You know, massive big artists are kind of getting the priority of the attention at the moment. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sad to see it happen in real time. It's happening very quickly. Absolutely. Do you find it's harder to make songs happen in the streaming age because obviously you've got people don't necessarily stop listening to old music in a way that they would have done when you had to buy it. Does it mean you have to have a much longer gestation period for a song to come through? Yeah, 100%. You definitely see that for a hit to be a hit, it can take up to even a year sometimes. I mean, it's that for me is crazy. You can release a song tomorrow and it won't blow up for you know, maybe till next year. So that's been a kind of shift in the way that you have to look at how you release and that kind of trajectory. I don't know, I also feel like though music's just people love nostalgia. They love things that make them feel good. They're, I think, a playlist to the dominance of playlisting I think has been a massive reason for that because the choice of being able to support a music you want on that playlist kind of dictates what you're listening to. So you're not kind of being shown music as much. I think you're kind of going down to what you want to specifically hear. Even for me, a lot of my playlists now are like kiddie songs and music that my kids want to hear and they stream it over and over and over and over again. My Spotify algorithm is completely far from now. Well, maybe shark on that. It's worse than that. It's like even more like, you know, you don't want to hear the algorithm is crazy. But I mean, I think right now the most important thing I think for all artists is just to keep creating music that is true to you and completely distinguishes you from anyone else. I think that's the key because I think at least then you'll kind of spike and kind of get someone's ear. And that's definitely what I look to when I'm writing music now and creating is just making stuff that feels like it's going to stand out as much as possible so you have a chance of even being on someone's radar. Because I think otherwise you can just fall into this void of white noise. There's so much music out there to stream. I guess the good thing as a songwriter is if you have a hit, re-stick around. Right? So it becomes a mega hit. But then how do you get the hit? Is the question we all want to know? That is the question. It's so different to how it used to be. I remember I was just writing a song and maybe a week later a number one. That was actually my life. And now I speak to so many big hit producers and writers and they're all saying the same thing. It's like how do you get a hit now? But at the same time I love that everyone has a fair and equal chance. There isn't that kind of forced hand anymore. It's all about the music now. And I've just finished working with Jessie Wehrer on her album. She's just put out a song we wrote called Automatic and even that process making that song with her was just like so fun and organic and just completely free of what it's going to do in radio and what's it going to do on TV and are you going to get this and how's it going to stream? It's just about making music that we think is incredible. So that's definitely changed for me now. It's much more about having fun in the studio and just making something that we think is going to stand out for us. Good. Yeah. Good attitude. And has anything caught your eye in the news this week? I have loved watching Ray's success. If I'm honest, as a friend of Ray and just a complete admirer of her and having worked with her in the studio and seeing her brilliance for so long, I think my favourite news story was reading about how much she killed that number one top spot. It wasn't just the number one. It was like, no, she finished everyone. I'm so obsessed with that story and what she's done and how hard she's worked. It's the hard work for me and the determination. And I think it's just so inspiring. It's inspired me to the core. And I've inspired so many of us in the industry. And yeah, a story of true resilience, man, and just not giving up. And I'm so here for that. So that's been my favourite story. Yeah. Well, fair play, Ray. Yeah. Good work. Love you, Bill. Thanks, Camille. And don't forget for even more music industry insights sign up for the TMT newsletter at themoneytrends.com. But now it's time to talk to this week's guest top songwriter and producer Camille. Congratulations on the MPG Inspiration of War. Thank you. How does it feel to win that? I don't believe it. I mean, I don't know. I don't even know if I'm much of an inspiration. I feel like I've just been winging it for the last so many years. Maybe that is inspiration in itself. To be fair, maybe it is. But I don't know. It makes me so happy to know that people consider me to be any kind of inspiration to others. And I love the fact that this could be something that people look at and then encourage them to want to do the same. That's what makes me so happy. You know, when I like produce records and people can go and Spotify for example and see the credits written by Camille and produced by Camille, that's the kind of flex I love. And yeah, so if that has any part in anyone else's journey and inspires them to do the same, that makes me so, so happy. Fantastic. I mean, you're, I guess, these awards are primarily for production. Do you see yourself as a producer or songwriter or everything? I feel everything. It's such a weird kind of mesh, isn't it, when you're in the studio, it's like who's doing what? And there's so many conversations about it all the time. I mean, like a WhatsApp group with the whole industry, as I'm sure you know about it. It's a conversation that comes up a lot and rightly so because the lines can sometimes get so blurred. But now I definitely feel like for me, I am on a laptop, I am on the piano, I'm making beats, I am producing, I'm on the set, I'm doing the whole record on my own, this whole album, I produce on my own. So I feel like for me, it's really important to then understand that, I don't know, I think producers, it's such hard work, it's such hard work, producing songs. So hard even like with this album that I've just done, I made these songs and I just knew I couldn't get it across the line, sonically. I got it to maybe 60%, and even that was so hard that I had to get in touch with some incredible producers that I love and for them to kind of take it home and take it to where I wanted it to be. So I think collaboration and production is still always so important, but it's definitely something I'm so proud of though that I can produce. And how do you, because you are like the ultimate multi-hyphen it really, but how do you balance everything? Other projects where you're just writing and just producing or do you do a bit of everything on the. I think of it everything, yeah. I think for me in the studio, Melody will always come first to me. So if there's like a chronological order of what happens for me in a studio process, Melody comes straight away or I'm on the piano immediately and playing something or I'm on a synth. So I don't know, I can't really tell you if it's a songwriting or production thing first, it's just a magical thing that happens for me, but I love the fact that I can finish songs both on the computer and just in the room with someone. And I think that's given me I guess such a freedom of expression and it means that I can kind of be in a room with an artist on my eye and with them or I can be in a group with people. I can finish songs, I can even in sessions now and producers are like, okay, I'll just send you the stems, can you just do that at home? And I'll be like, yeah, and I'll send it back to you and just makes my life so much easier and theirs as well. So I think I'm just like, yeah, I just like to collab. I feel like that's the thing I love the most, just feeling free and I've learnt so much on YouTube. I cannot express to you how easy it is to learn how to produce. Anyone who says they want to learn how to produce, just go on YouTube, please put a love of good. Everything is there. Okay. I'm being serious with you, even on the basic level and you know, you have amazing apps like Splice that can just give you short cuts so you can even just get little stems and little bits and bobs and get on your way to figuring it out. But I definitely feel like for females in particular, it's much more of a thing for females to feel like they can't produce because we're kind of taught as females that when you're in a room you sit on the sofa behind the producer and you sit nicely and you write the song and you leave. That's kind of what your thought. I don't know if anyone's doing that on purpose to women but it's definitely something that women feel. So I feel like for me what I'm always trying to do is encourage women in particular that this is something you can do. It's something that's very easy to learn. It's not hard. You know, I even with Fred again and she's the music, we did an amazing initiative where we had these incredible female producers come through and we kind of train them and coach them over the space of a year and encourage them to kind of grow a their production and one of them reached out to me on Radio One now and where music's on there and it's just I'm so proud of that and that's something I definitely want to be doing more of. I've spoken a long time about this but I feel very passionate about women in music please. It's just very, it's a soft spot for me because when I came through this industry I didn't see many women in production positions. It's going to say you must have been one of the few doing it when you when you started it. So what was that experience like? I didn't even know I was doing it at the beginning. I was so new to everything. I was just lucky to be in a room as we a lot of us are. So you don't know that when you're on the piano constructing chords that that's part of a production of a song or you don't know that that you know, if you're making a beat and putting it in, you just kind of don't know what the rules are yet. So I only kind of figured out during the course that I think the next few years when my management would be like, oh, what did you do in that song? I'd be like, I did the cause and I made a bit of the beat and they're like, that's production camp. I'm like, oh, I didn't know. I didn't know when sat me down and told me that. So it's kind of a learning on the job thing for me. - Have you got paid for it? - I'm sorry. - I figured that out from back there and all of the sudden I'm just sitting over there and I'm not sure he has. But yeah, I think it's been an interesting journey for me. One life had to definitely learn on the job, but I love the fact that now I can very clearly understand what my role is and help others to understand that now as well. - We had Catherine Marks on the podcast a few weeks ago. And she was quite optimistic that things are getting better for women producers. Do you agree with that? - Yeah, I think so. I think I honestly think social media has a much to play in that. So I think now anything can get morality on it. Anything, by anyone, there's no kind of, oh, who made this song now? I'm gonna listen to it. It's just, I love this music. Who did that? And you might find out it's a girl, it's a boy, it's a herbose. It's that for me. The freedom of music now has meant that anyone can have success with their music. So I think definitely you are seeing a lot more females in the forefront, which I love. Love, love, love, love, love. I just wanted to feel balanced. That's all for me. And I don't want there to be this to be about women producing. 'Cause even when I go into rooms and there's a female engineer, I get so excited. I'm like, oh my god. It's like, I'm so gased by it. And it shouldn't be that though. It should be normal, do you know what I mean? So yeah, it's definitely getting into a good place where there's definitely more work to do, I think. - Fantastic stuff. And I guess the MPG awards, the one of the few times in a year where producers get to sort of be in the spotlight, right? - Yeah. - I mean, that should have more often, shouldn't it? - Oh yeah, of course. Producers are incredible. I think honestly, I was in the room the other day with Jess Glyn and Starsmith, right? And these are two people that I've worked with so much over the course of my career. And I just sat there and watched Finn Starsmith construct this whole beat in about two minutes. He made it sound exactly like what Jess wanted. Exactly like what I was thinking. And he just did it instantly. And I'm like, that is so incredible. To actually harness the right sound, I can sit for hours trying to find the right snare. Joanne, I overthink everything. There's some producers who are just so gifted and they can create exactly what you're thinking and make it in front of you. - I know so many producers like that is unreal. And I just sit and study them and think, that's unreal what you do. Not only that, the hours, the man hours you have to spend afterwards finishing a beat, or the notes you get from labels. And the man in mixes, you have to go back and redo and redo. I'm making one song at the moment and getting notes from a label and it makes me so nervous. It's actually nerve-racking, finishing something and going back to them and it might not be what they want and going back again. And then on top of it, you've got other sessions to do, by the way. And you've still got to finish this thing. So it's a lot of work. I think producers are honestly so incredible. And I love that this is a chance for them to be celebrated because they deserve it. Really, really do. Given all that, do you think the wider music industry appreciates producers, songwriters, the way it should? I think there's always room for a bit more balance. I think that producers and points and this whole debate and for DMs and all these things, the reason why these conversations are happening is because they need to, because there isn't balance. There isn't enough equity here. So I think when that happens, I'll be much more, you know, in a place where I could be like, yeah, I feel good about this. But right now, I definitely feel like there's still a lot of work to be done. How tough is it to earn a living as a producer or a songwriter at the moment? Well, it just depends on what artists you're around. It's different when it is. If you're a producer who's running for a hit artist, great. And you're in a click, because it's very clicky. Artists kind of like working with who they want to work with. They're not kind of dictated too as much about who they have to work with, which I love. But it means if you're in a group of, a hit making, you know, group of people, fantastic. If you're someone who's struggling to get in and you're finding your way up there, so hard, so unbelievably hard. And as I was speaking to you about before, so even get a hit now like, how? How do you find yourself? You can make an incredible song and have a great release and everything's planned. And the song might just not do anything. Or it could in eight months. So I have no answers anymore. All I know is you have to do this only if you love it. There's never been a time more, I think, in my career that I've seen with the music industry. You have to be here if you love it. If you don't love it, you'll fall apart. It's so hard now. And that goes to both sides, whether you're in corporate side or if you're in the creative side, it's just so hard. So you have to really, really love being here. And I love music so much. It wakes me up at night. I have ideas that come to me to a Am I to run downstairs to my studio? It's that for me. So I couldn't not be here doing this. Impossible. I'd go insane. How many times does that song turn out to be a hit? Oh my God. It's always the way. It's always the 3 AM ones. It's always the ones where I'm about to leave the studio. And then I something comes right at the end. And I piss everyone off. I feel like, oh, guys, please, it's just one more idea. That's always the one. Happens all the time to me. So I just lay it flow. I'm very annoying, though. I like to make a 100 ideas in one studio session because I just have pho-mo of each one. It's a really weird feeling, actually, when something comes to you and you're like, what could this have been? This could be the one and this could be the one. And that, for me, is so addictive that I just always want to finish stuff all the time. We said at the top of the show, how many streams you've had? I mean, you've had your songs, about billions and billions of streams. OK. Do you earn enough money from streaming? Oh no. No. Not even you. I ain't got that. No, we do not. Which is why I think writers, in particular, need more equity and more fairness. And we just need a bit of time of it because we do a lot as well. I think, as I said, producers obviously need so much celebration, so do writers. It's not easy coming up with a top line sometimes. Sometimes it is. But sometimes it's not. And then there's a lot of pressure on writers. You invite a writer into a room or a top line up because you expect them to just come out of the hit. And I think that expectation is a lot of pressure. Sometimes I wake up and I'm just like, happens to me another day and I said to my aunt, oh my god, I'm scared about this session. It's my manager. And he was like, you can do it. You can do it. And I'm like, but can I? Like can I? There's a lot of big important people in this room and it's scary. And they all just, you know, are looking at you to make this hit. So I still have that now after all this time doing this. I still feel like being a top line is a really, really difficult job. You probably do get those calls, though, and you whiff they're on a project. And they're like, we haven't got to hit amongst these so much. Yeah, all the time. A fair bit of pressure must come with that. Yeah, 100%. I think I love the pressure, but I also can be very anxious sometimes. And I think now what I've loved the most is having like, I have like a team of incredible people and friends around me and writers around me who like, we collab. It's for me, as I said, it's a collaboration. Because when there's someone in the room who I love and trust, like I saw into a different place. I don't have that anxiety anymore. So I think sometimes when I need it, I'll lean on some incredible friends and writers that I know and we'll just vibe and everything's okay. But yeah, I do get that pressure sometimes when an A&R person will be like, I'll come ill, we need this hit and can you go and do it? And I'm like, okay. (laughs) I'll try my best. Well, it seems to work more often than not. Judging by the track record. But now your friend Ray and the Arvs Academy successfully campaigned for like, 3DM's and expenses for songwriters. Has that made a difference since it came in? I don't think it has. I think songwriters are still struggling to get them. It's gonna be honest with you. From what I'm hearing and seeing in the community, it does feel like there's still a lot of, you know, pushback on it. Even after the agreement was there. Yeah, this is what I'm hearing. And I don't know, I just, it shouldn't be so hard. It just shouldn't be so hard. This is the only industry I know where you can do a day's work and have to fight for what you're actually rightfully do. - Journalism is the other one, Camille. - Oh, good. - Thank you, me side. Yeah, but I don't know. I feel like there's still a lot to be done. I mean, I see so many people fighting for points that they feel like they deserve and being pushed back. And, ah, good. I just wanted to feel fair, but the world isn't fair. So I just have to keep fighting for it. But it's not easy. It's not easy to watch as well. - Yeah, I'd imagine you've had master points as a producer before. But have you ever had the most of the songwriters? - Maybe like a couple of times. A couple of times, not many that I can count if I'm honest. My thing, my game has always been, I guess just giving myself the best chance of having success by writing lots of songs and getting lots of cuts to kind of offset that a little bit. But Nioh haven't had a lot of points as a writer, I for sure. - How much difference would it make if that became standard practice? - Oh my god, it would be incredible. And I don't think it should be taken out of the producer's hand. I think it should be fair. I think everyone should be able to benefit from that experience of making this song. So yeah, I think it would benefit somewhere as incredibly and they'd fall incentivized and they fall safe to work and like they can get out 'cause they can afford to and all these kinds of things. So yeah, I think it just, I just don't know. don't see why things can't just be fair. - Yeah. - I guess in the old days, if you had that one big hit, you were kind of maybe not set for life, but you'd have a nice income forever. Can you still get rich of one hit or do you-- - I think you definitely can, yeah. I think if you're lucky enough to get, top spot on Billboard for Grand Art Large, yeah, you're good. But how hard is it? How easy is it to get that? You just see charts dominated by the same few artists, which is incredible for them, but to fight your way in. Oh my God, it must take so much work and budget and thought and team and push. Like, I don't know how you even do that now without a massive, massive force behind you. So, yeah, difficult time for sure, but that is not to say that it's impossible. And for me, I just like to live on the more positive side of life and just feel like, listen, anyone can get it. Anyone can have success right now. There's nothing stopping anyone. You just need to really have a lot of thought and integrity behind what you're doing. - Yeah, well, let's go back to the early days when life was easy and you were getting into the music business. Although, as we say, you started your career as a stop-broad. Were you always that I want to work in music, but I've just got to do this. - Yeah, I mean, I've always loved music and then my parents though, especially my mum was very much more about my education and rightly so. My mum super, super incredible woman, she has an NBE and she's very much like, you know, your education comes first. So, I kind of followed that path, but all along, I definitely wanted to be in music and I just walked out of my job one day, which was really, really bad. I shouldn't have done that. I don't advocate anyone walking out of their job, but I just could not do it anymore. And I used to mow into my dad about wanting to go to studios and write music and my dad got me in touch with producer and put me in a studio and the rest is history, literally. I wrote, "What about us in that studio?" And with an incredible group of people and that song went to number one and that was how my career literally started from there. - Yeah, so that was one of the first songs you wrote and that was a massive hit, right? - Yeah, it was. It was the Saturdays, first number one, Michelle and Paul and kind of put me into a place where I could then kind of go into other sessions and be spoken about and people were like, "Who's that Camilgale?" And I didn't want to be just this one hit wonder though, I wanted to really prove that I loved making music and I was here to stay. So I worked so hard. The next few years for me, I think just hustled. I was in every session, every room I could be in. I was sending DMs, I was messaging artists, like no tomorrow, I was getting no response. I would message them again, like, I am a serial stalker online. Everyone knows that by now. I just don't have much shame when it comes to reaching out for opportunities, so I just hustled my way through. - Yeah, so you went there like, "Oh, I've got number one with my first song, this is insane." - Absolutely not. Oh my god, I've heard anything I felt more scared about it because I didn't want that to be the only one and I loved that feeling. That first feeling of having a number one, oh my gosh, it was like, it's most incredible feeling. You go into Sainsbury's and hear your song or you'd be driving and then a white van guy would drive up next to you and be playing your song full volume. It was just sitting there like, what? And you remember when you wrote it, it's incredible. - The best feeling, I think, in the world. I don't take drugs, that's what drugs must feel like 'cause it's so addictive, so unbelievably addictive. And yeah, I think that's why I worked so hard to keep having that. - When you wrote it, were you thinking, this is gonna be a massive hit? - No, not at all. I was just like, this is really catchy. I love the song, I felt like it sounded great. I think though, I have noticed with songs that have been hit in my career, I've tended to have this kind of magical feeling in my stomach a little bit. It's kind of like butterflies a little bit. When you're in the studio and you make something that you're like, oh my god, this feels so good. And no one else has heard it yet. No one in the world has heard it, just the people in the room. Not even management, I've heard it. And yeah, that feeling is so incredible. And I can usually tell when the song's really good when I then send it to my management and they're like, oh my god. 'Cause sometimes your management will be like, yeah, this is great. Sometimes they'll be like, oh my god, one of my managers will send a gif of like a nuclear explosion when he loves the song. So I love that. I love when they also have the same responses me. I think that's, yeah, it's been beautiful to have a few nuclear explosions over the years, for sure. - And how's your track record? When you get that feeling in the studio, does that song always go on to be it? - Typically, yeah. Typically, yeah, it has been. Now, not so much. Now it's more like, if I love it, I love it and we'll see. 'Cause your song is literally, I don't know. There's so many other things that's fake now as to what determines the hit. Also, that's a good question. What is a hit now? Like, do you consider a hit to be a streaming hit? Is it a radio hit? Is it something that's all over Spotify? I mean, something that's all over TikTok? Or, I just don't know what a hit is anymore. And everyone has their own kind of view of it. And I think it's very personal to you what a hit is. So, yeah, I don't know. - Which one do you prefer? - I think because I am such a social girlie, I think I love a viral hit. I love seeing something go extremely, I'm talking extremely viral where, you know, jet-to viral. I love that level of like, virality. I think that I find that so exciting. How quickly it happens. I wish it happened with a song I wrote with David Getter called "I'm Good." And I'm telling you now, I remember being pregnant and that song overnight was the most viral song on TikTok. overnight, it was the weirdest thing just because he played it out, you know, when I played it and DJed it and then it went to number one. And that for me, it seemed that just gave me this love for viral hits. I love it so much. So, it's so exciting. - Yeah, fantastic. And you developed a great relationship with Little Mix and you wrote a lot of their biggest hits and a lot of songs on their albums and stuff. - I did that work so well, do you think? - I think because I was obsessed with them. I think, as I am with most artists I work with, I become so obsessed with people. And I just, I don't know, I think, I just loved them and loved them now. And I think they were so incredible. And I loved the fact that together we could kind of write about things that girls wanted to hear and feel seen about, you know? And such a song's like shout out to my ex, I think just healing people from heartbreak with a revenge banger. There's nothing I love more than doing that, especially for young girls who need that support. So, I think that's why I loved working with Little Mix so much was the impact that between all of us we were able to create through the songs and then of course them as incredible artists, being able to go out and champion women. I think I love that the most about it for sure. - Yeah, you were, I think they called you the fifth. - Oh yeah, I can't get rid of me. I just love, they're my friends, you know what I mean? So yeah, it was amazing that we were all able to do that and have such an amazing time doing it. It was just so much fun. Like I lit back at that era and just smiled because it was just so fun. It didn't even feel like work. It just saw like girls chatting shit in a room and making a song. We'd always get champagne. We would just vibe and dance and it was just chaos from start to finish every single studio session. And I loved, I just loved being around them. They were so much fun. Well, they ever get back together, do you think? - I hope so, please, I would love that. I've known so many people online want that as well. Everyone says it. So you never know, you never know. I think it's been amazing watching them also explore their own identities and figure out who they are as people because it's a long time. You've been in a group. So it's really healthy to actually just figure out what you want to do. But of course I would love them to be back together. - Yeah. - And obviously songwriting careers gone brilliantly. And then what made you want to sort of launch a solo, a real artist? - I always wanted to be a night here. This is the thing. The writing thing just has like, it's playing happens by time. Not out of anything I had done on purpose. So I actually went into those studios that I spoke about wanting to be an artist. That's how I started. And it just happened that the writing thing blew up. But it's always been a burning desire of mine. It's something that won't go away. It allows me to express myself in a way that I can't through writing for other people. So I have to do it. It's not even something that I want to do. It's something that I need to do. And I love being able to write about my own experiences with like the freest tongue and the freest hand and not having to hold anything back or, I just love being me. There's nothing I love more than being in the, and especially now being able to produce my music as well. Like I'm just the freest bird. It's beautiful. So this album that I'm making is like, why I'm so excited about it. I think it's the most honest music I've ever written. I've written about the music industry. I've written about my relationship. I've written about abuse. There's so much in there. And I've never been that honest before. So I think it needed me to just be in a room on my own and write it and produce it and do that. And yeah, I think that's what I've loved the most about being an artist. It's just being able to express myself. So when you write a song, do you instantly know this is for me or this is for someone? Yeah, you definitely know, I think, straight away. I will, I do anyway. There have been times when I've written a song for me and I've given it away to someone though. But I never seem to, I never worry about that because I feel like every song has its journey. That's one thing my management always taught me from when I first started. Like every song has a purpose, whether it's the thing that you think. it's for or not, there's a reason why you're written that song. Some songs are to get you in rooms to people or some songs were meant to be heard by a record label and I don't know, it could be anything. It might not be this song has to be for you and has to go in a chart. It could just be that this song was meant to put you somewhere. So I live by that and die by that I think and I don't worry too much giving songs away because I think it's part of my journey and I'll write another one. Yeah. And if you become a massive solo star, which I'm sure you I'm sure you will, but if you're as big as Titus Swift, will you pack in the songwriting and the touch on you? No, no, no, no. They for me, this all comes as a package. It's like hand in hand. My writing, my artistry, they belong together. I can't, if I think I was writing too much for the artists, I would crave being an artist myself and vice versa. So no, they'll never, they'll never die. I think they literally live together in a weird ecosystem. Excellent. But I think I feel like I write my best songs for other artists when I'm able to explore my artist off of myself. I've noticed that's when I've got the best songs for other people. And you say you mentioned you like collaborating. Yeah. Co-writing these days, some songs come out and they've got, you know, six, seven, eight, sometimes 20 co-writers. Is there an optimum number for you? Do you know what? I feel like just the logistics of having like, you know, 10 people in a room. I don't think that's very conducive to having a space to write, I would say. It's been a big studio. And I think just it kind of becomes like you're kind of fighting for the mic almost to sing a melody or something. I don't think that's helpful for any writer. I definitely can see how you can end up with so many writers because people can come in and tweak bits or finish the chorus or that I totally think is brilliant because you might write an amazing verse on chorus and your chorus is shit and someone else can come in right at the best chorus ever and take it to a new place. I love that. I love like song doctoring after the session. I think that's a great thing. But I think in the room having 10 writers or 10 people in the room making a song is mad. I can't do it. I can't even think straight. I can't even hear myself talk or think. So I don't know if I can do that. I think for me, optimum number probably four people max in a room. Okay. Are people getting credit for songs that they that they don't deserve? Of course. In what industry is that not happening? Like this is the world we live in. Of course they are. I think yeah, I definitely am learning though. One thing I have learnt from those people is to do the same sometimes and just chill. There were some people who were coming to a session and just coast. And there's nothing wrong with that. If that's what you want to do and you just want to provide an energy in a room. Great for you. I'm someone who I like to do a lot of work. I work very hard in a studio session. So it's been times when I've been in a room for example with a coaster and I've been I've felt quite hard done by like I've done the majority of the work and they just come and take an equal split for example. But now what I do in certain environments is I'm much more chilled. I contribute but I let the room also do and I let the room be. Do you know what I'm trying to say? I don't do that all the time but I'm definitely learning to have a limit on how much I always always always have to give give give give give because that is what can for really exhausting. I think what I'm learning to do now is kind of chill a little bit and let other people lean on other people more I would say. That's definitely an era I'm in and I think that's been a beautiful thing for me because a lot of my career I think I have felt like I've done a lot of work a lot a lot a lot of work and not always seen what I felt like was fair for it and that's I guess it's just part of the music industry and how it is but I definitely feel like it's something I've learnt to kind of tweak a little bit for my mental health for sure to just kind of allow myself to give what I can give and not over over exact myself all the time. It does I mean it does affect what you earn doesn't it if there's if there's two writers on the song you're going to get more money than if there's 22 but let me tell you something I love nothing more than being in the room I can only be in a room with five people it's all those five people are coming with the sickest melody sickest stuff like let's go that for me is so amazing I like get a buzz when I'm in a room with someone I was I've actually max wolf guy on the other day he is so sick oh my goodness like it was like we were we were literally at toe for toe on like melodies and it was like it was like it was like a rap battle but a song where it was rap battle it was so sick and I thought like for me if the energy is that where you're coming with sick shit let's go I don't care how people are doing this from we're gonna get the best song what I don't like is if I'm in a room and someone's kind of just sitting there nodding at me and waiting for me to do it all and I think in any line of work that's not cool I think that if you're going to be in a room especially a high energy high powered room you need to kind of come something or it's not really fair on other people good point yeah I guess are you are you worried that about AI is AI going to represent someone I am not worried at all right now if I'm super honest I think it's just I have this conversation so much for me I love the fact that it cannot replace me it can't it doesn't matter how much people can say you know you can create a song soon or in two minutes great it will never have my life experience my emotional experience will never have my melody it will never be me there's a nuance to being a human songwriter that you know an AI platform could never create I don't know if one day it will be able to that's that scares me a little bit but right now I just think I'm not in any way threatened by it I definitely think it's useful for writers and producers you know I had a writer say to me the other day they had a song a demo sitting on their hard drive and they were able to just change it to from a female vocal to a male vocal and they got it cut they got the song you know cut and I thought that is a useful way of using AI if you're going to use it as a tool but not to actually like create a whole song or to create these you know pieces of music and at like you've done it I just that for me there's no integrity in that you know what I mean so I don't know I'm not threatened by it but I can definitely see that it's not going anywhere so it's important to understand it do you worry that systems are being trained on songs you've written? Of course yeah and we all worry about that of course that that really really is so sad to think and might be happening right now as we speak so I don't know the problem I feel like we're having is AI is evolving so much faster than legislation can cope with and I think that is the problem I think it's like a beast that just evolves so I'm just hoping that more can be done to kind of restrict that kind of stuff because that stuff is bad that's really really bad yeah well we're keeping an eye on that definitely what's what's next for you oh I am just going to have so much fun this year do you want to know why I feel like I have had my kiddies all right congratulations thank you how old are they they're one in three oh come on you're you've got your hands full I know but at the same time because I know I'm done now with having kiddies I feel even more I think driven and powered now I feel like a vicious woman from on air because I'm so ready to like get back into my career like fully fully into it and I mean I haven't even taken a maternity leave from on air so I just kind of work through it which is crazy but I think with music you can't stop it's something if you live in breath music it's what is maternity leave do you know what I mean it's you're gonna write someone you're gonna write a song but I think for me next is just an amazing era that I'm really excited to get embarking to you know it's just being completely completely ready to just go like I'm ready to do me on another level now yeah and I say you got your own label good your own publishing company are you are you gonna expand them as well oh yeah I'm actually looking at some new artists at the moment that I'm gonna be working with there's a couple people that I'm about to sign which I'm so excited about and I'm always looking for new writers I talk to writers on socials all day long and he wants to know his name knows I'm always asking people to send me music I'm always giving feedback on music so if anyone's listening to this and you do you want to send me stuff please feel free because I always am here to help but yeah I'm really excited to expand those and just help people have opportunities that they deserve fantastic stuff well thanks Camille stick around latest all greatest is coming right up and if you're enjoying the money trying to support it by a sound on and Tixle please give us a rating or review on your podcast platform a choice as it really does help us keep making this podcast but now it's time for a quick far round with our guest Camille Perse so Camille this is called latest or greatest you can decide to talk about either the most recent or the all-time best music biz thing that you've experienced in these categories so we start with what supposed to be the easiest one the latest or greatest record that you've bought I think it has to be do you know what I was struggling with this one so much and I still have it it's so hard it's so hard and I think the greatest and latest for me has I'm loving even saying it has to be this music making saying hope by way the reason why I'm laughing is because I had three choices and I still feel like I can't choose between them but the reason why I'm gonna go with Ray And this album is just because for me it was a true exploration of music and truth and It's who she is. I've never heard a piece of music and thought that is literally her In a record there's it's it's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard so yeah, I'm gonna go that one Okay, that's a long time to get there. Sorry. Yeah, but it's a good choice. You arrived at the right The latest or greatest gig or festival. Oh my gosh I think the greatest one probably has to be I have to can I give you two go on as is you One was I saw Drake three years ago lost my mind lost I've never understood how he's managed to have such a Track record of hits like that is for me a Lesson in hit making every single one of those songs the chorus is everything the way he comes to stage Ridiculous and then another greatest for me was Vibes Cartel though to Last year one of the best Concepts I've I lost my life at that concert as a Jamaican woman to watch vibes on stage Incredible see how fantastic stuff. Yeah Your latest or greatest music biz boss your own boss now, but who have you been impressed by? See this is another hard one Nick Burgess for me is someone who saw something in me a long time ago and Signed me as an artist and for that I will always always just love him forever I think he's a friend. He's an incredible person. He's incredible at what he does He is yeah such an inspiration to me. So Nick Burgess is the first one and the second one Second one has to be Simon Cowell and the reason why I think as his friend I Think I can confidently say that he is One of the best people to ever do it in my opinion. He's one of the best people to ever do it I've never seen someone again who's had that long a track record of success and hits and it's so instinctive with him I watch him you know filming his Netflix show with him and being on a panel next to him and just watching him work Was an incredible process for me and then even just working with him so long through you know the sci-fi days and watching that and He taught me so much of what I know So I think I have to say Simon as well for enough. Yeah, you worked on the expect the new weather It was interesting experiences. Yeah, it was incredible for me because it was like a an iron iron overnight It was like watching someone come from absolutely, you know nothing no fame no No start in the career to overnight having you know million followers and being this huge star and having a number one Because I remember over that in those times it was actually number one's at Christmas by fourth like they were happening So for me it was an incredible process to be able to learn very quickly what a hit was that's kind of what taught me I remember I came off the X factor and then we wrote Black magic immediately and then I had like a string of hits after that And I definitely put that down to what I learned through working on the X factor Fantastic fantastic the latest or greatest mistake that you've made Oh Yeah, I made mistakes all the time. I think I Think the greatest mistake that I've made honestly I think it was doubting myself the amount of Times I've doubted myself the the level of doubt. I think I have is the biggest mistake. I think I fired Very early on understood how sick I was and even now if I had that level of confidence I think I should have I think I'd be so much further than I am but a lot of my time has spent doubting and overthinking and Impostor syndrome and all those kinds of things I spend so much time in that area that I think that's the biggest mistake I make probably and that's a consistent mistake that I'm always making okay What just stop making I know you're doing The latest or greatest artist you've worked with is going to tough on for you. You've worked with some That's really hard yeah Later to greatest okay, well the one of the latest I definitely would say is who I love is Jesse where and I think She's someone who not just as an artist. I think is incredible, but as a human She's just one of the nicest people to walk the earth. She really really is She's so sweet and so incredible and I've loved watching her have this incredible Moment and era of just people really really giving her the flower she deserves I think so Yeah, I'm gonna stop there and leave it on a high with Jesse I think very enough. She's even a great podcaster. She's incredible Exactly. Yeah, the latest or greatest music industry party that you've been to do you like a music industry? I do I do because you usually get loads of like free drinks and free fears And all that good stuff so I do like an industry party and there was an amazing one and I actually wrote about this because it was a memory that I will never forget The Warner summer swire June 2018 in mandrake hotel. Oh, yeah, I was there actually. Were you there? I might even have seen you there You probably do probably to see you But this week of this party I had Jess Glyn I'll be there at number one and clean bandit dummy the Vato Solo at number two and it was just about to overtake it and become number one and I'm not yourself Number one and just was there and Fred again was there and we were all just it was just Unreal and we had the best time and I remember thinking wow this is probably like One of the best moments of my life So I definitely say that part for sure. Okay solid choice solid choice and we can't let you go without giving us a new music tip Do you get sent a lot of music by brand new artist? I do I do you think getting you excited? There's a few little bits going inside actually, but I think For me an artist that I don't even think she's she's not a new artist But someone who I think I've recently got into and feel like she's becoming to everyone a new artist is rose grey Oh, yeah, she's incredible and I worked for her recently and was just kind of stunned by her talent I'd watched her obviously and seen bits and stuff, but I think being in a room with her it truly bleeming away So I definitely would say rose grey Yeah, she's gonna be a big star. I think huge Yeah, she's gonna be incredible man. She's so sick. So definitely rose for me Fantastic stuff, but that sadly is all we have time for a big thank you to our guest Camille So thanks very much for your show. Thanks for having me and sorry for my indecision with a lot of the artists very hard a lot of these questions Yeah, we don't we don't make easy for you on time too Camille but The Money Trunch the Music Industry podcast with me, Marseille and Disapported by Sound on a Tixle and in support of earth Percent is produced by Tate Notes and Exec produced by Mike Walsh with huge thanks to Senheiser the fourth Bella And our amazing social media team Amos Play who can be found at AmosPlay.com The Money Trunch Music is by the brilliant Tom O' Smith and to get in touch with us Please email Mike at the Money Trunch.com and special thanks this week to wine our music for the studio Wine Out is an entertainment company Build-Around artists and their fans offering a one-stop solution across merch content production and audience management Check out wine at music.com for more info our next TMT Tuesday showcase has been announced in partnership with our friends at fierce panda Atacomatic cherry and spaceaker will all play on May the 19th please head for the TMT socials to book your tickets And the Biz is back with a bang this week as well as the mpg awards john sonson's latest networking night is on There's a music technology UK networking evening. There's a bpi inside session Dominic Moe and opens his 1996 exhibition and their big shows for Sky Newman half-man half-fisket James Imaging the heat cap earns frank Turner and blue And TMT will be back with the system up and the top down to keep this industry on lockdown with another brand new episode on Monday April the 20th featuring another top Biz name We will see you then and come here thanks for coming on the show and see you at the mpg awards. Thank you so much for having me Cheers