12. Tongues, Prophecy, & Women Preachers

Welcome back to Archway Bible podcast. I'm you know who I am. It's me. It's me. I Feel like I've never said our names at the beginning of the episode So I just want to introduce myself. I was true. Yeah, it would never say I'm I'm Elijah. I'm Jake Yeah, we've never done that before so I just felt really awkward just out doing that Okay, we're keeping that in yeah good. I feel no shame about those kinds of things So welcome back we're on this series talking through The Holy Spirit the spiritual gifts and all things charismatic slash Pentecostal with a charismatic worship last time Yes, and a defensive basically the charismatic liturgy Which is epic super cool and that was actually a really great episode It was if you didn't listen that one you should go back and check it out. I enjoyed it Today we're gonna try and talk through the whole of 1 Corinthians 14 It's very ambitious. We're gonna try and go from verse 1 to what is it 35? No 39 49 40 yeah 40 versus which is pretty ambitious We're gonna see what we can do we want we want to talk about the spiritual gifts But especially prophecy and speaking in tongues and whether or not charismatic have their heads on straight on those issues and we're actually Doing something that matches the text that we have which is by the way all we really have to work with on the spiritual gifts I mean, I mean yeah, there's other lists in the New Testament. Yeah, okay Yeah, maybe modify that statement but The the word really is doing all the heavy lifting. It's the only time anybody really tries to tell us what these gifts are and how they work Right like there's no parallel passage. There's Romans 12 Which has like a list of gifts as well. Yeah, Romans 12 matches 1 Corinthians 12 Yeah, but not really first Corinthians 14, which is where all the right stuff definitely Yeah, if someone's gonna talk about spiritual gifts They're definitely turning to first Corinthians. Absolutely. Yes. This is where all the most highly contested debated stuff is Now to just give you some context before we get into the passage what Paul has basically been working through with the Corinthians He's giving them and this is a very sarcastic letter Explain what you mean by that as he goes through he'll do something called A literary device called slogans, which is where you basically just means he quotes the Corinthians back at them There seems to have been some correspondence between Paul and the Corinthians He writes them a letter and then someone speaking on behalf of the Corinthians also came and gave Paul some questions and updated him on the situation And he works through the letter responding to each of those things, which is right the letters kind of all over the place And he'll often quote them in a way that is almost making fun of them right like at the beginning of the letter where he's like Yeah, I'm a fool and you're wise and you're so special and us apostles We're so awful. We're the scum of the earth right aren't we but you Corinthians are so spiritual and amazing and it is It's not always obvious when he's quoting them so sometimes it can be kind of like hard to understand what's going on Yes, sometimes we have a pretty good understanding of the fact that he's probably quoting them But other places it's pretty confusing and one of those contested examples comes from first Corinthians 14 where Paul's reference to women a lot of people are wondering if maybe somewhere in that block of text within those few verses There's actually a slogan that we're not picking up on interesting it happens in first Corinthians time when he talks about What is it that he taught Christian liberty and he says you know like you say everything is not everything is Everything is Permissible, but not everything is beneficial. He's like you say this sometimes sometimes it lintricates it and even here the beginning of chapter 12 He says now about Spiritual things now about gifts of the spirit. It's clear that he's like he's engaging in a topic that's been brought up to him totally Yeah, so beginning really in first Corinthians 11 he starts talking about order in Christian gatherings when the church comes together to worship You know he talks about head coverings and then sort of the rules and The practices surrounding the the Lord's Supper yep the Eucharist and then he gets two spiritual gifts and this apparently seems to be like a very highly It's a big deal in the Corinthian church and the Corinthians are being kind of crazy and They have some bad ideas surrounding spiritual gifts what we're gonna find out is that Specifically one of the big problems is that they've elevated the gifts of tongues to being like the gift the gift the sign of someone spiritual maturity Which is why on I think it's twice Paul List tongues as the final gift in his list of gifts Almost as if to say look at all these other amazing spiritual gifts and also this one that you guys really like right So he never dunks on tongues never makes fun of it or thinks of it in a negative light, but he tries to invert or maybe subvert their own Understanding of how important tongues is and the level of Maybe honor that they're attaching to that gift or the sort of the sense of superiority that they're feeling because of that Those who walk in the gift and the way that he frames that is through 1 Corinthians 13 where after Paul introducing These gifts and reminding them that the Holy Spirit gives these different Gifts for the sake of the upbuilding of the body he frames all the gifts around a simple Christian ethic around love right and if we're not Doing if we're not operating in love we're missing the point entirely and so he which is important because I think that that Brings you back to the wider context of what it means to be a people of the Holy Spirit Yeah, and the people of the Holy Spirit are not just a a gifted people who operate in power the people of the Holy Spirit are God's Community God's people in the earth who are bearing witness to him as a priestly people and part of the way that we do that is our ethic of love the way that we Cooperate together and live together Sharing in the love of Christ and if we don't have that then all the power in the world is useless as Paul argues in chapter 13 Yeah, because the ultimate point and that's what you see in in the beginning of the book of Acts It's not just the powerful things were happening. It was that really compelling things were happening in the community of Christ that we're leading unbelievers to want to Hear about Jesus because they saw the ethic of love being lived out Yeah, like all people had all things in common. Yes, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so that kind of I think sufficiently sets us up for the way that Paul begins his argument in chapter 14 verse 1 You want to take it away? Sure says follow the way of love so he's picking up from where he left off in chapter 13 and Eureli desire gifts of the Holy Spirit or gifts of the spirit especially prophecy so Paul is Is basically saying here that the practice of the gifts of the spirit need to be contextualized in the way of love in the way of Jesus and He's now going to bring them into the context of What their gatherings are supposed to look like which is why he says here Desire the gifts of the spirit especially prophecy because what we're going to find out is that prophecy is especially useful or powerful for Blessing the gathering of God's people Awesome, so immediately I'm thinking what do we do and what are we meant to think about if if we're looking at Paul's ideal with Christian gatherings that do not have prophecy present where there is no prophesying happening And that's where I think the That's a huge W in the charismatic movement and in the charismatic church is that we are super open to receiving revelation from the spirit and Communicating it in whatever way the Holy Spirit sees fit which is epic. It is yes, and a lot of modern Western Evangelical churches or I guess you could even say just pick your tradition. Yeah a lot of them Are missing a lot of the ingredients that are described here in chapter 14 For all of our beautiful liturgies sometimes we're missing the stuff that Paul is really encouraging us to participate in totally Okay, first deal For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God Indeed no one understands them. They utter mysteries by the spirit So here Paul begins the contrast that's going to mostly prevail throughout chapter 14 between prophecy and tongues Or as Gordon Fee describes it between Intelligibility and unintelligibility is the broader category that Paul is Contrasting so we've had prophecy introduced in verse 1 now here in verse 2 He's saying the reason I want you to especially desire prophecy is because tongues while it is a gift from God it doesn't speak to people it speaks to God and so nobody understands you when you're speaking in tongues You are uttering mysteries by the spirit. Yeah, I made a video on this this past week But one of the common contentions to the charismatic view of tongues is that tongues as we see in Acts chapter 2 exists for the purpose of evangelism and This verse as well as many other things that Paul is going to go on to say about tongues in this passage In a really striking way help us see that that can't really be the case As a matter of fact of the around three dozen references to tongues most of which are in this passage But there's several other places where tongues happens in the New Testament in the book of Acts and then in that sort of sketchy ending of Mark 16 those references only There's only one instance where that gift is used for evangelistic purposes, which is in Acts chapter 2 That's right And so Paul here says that the person who speaks in tongues rather than speaking to people in in their you know known Language of their people group. No, instead they speak to God Nobody understands them and he speaks mysteries in the spirit. Yes I Gordon V connects this back to chapter 13 and verse one if I speak in the tongues of men or of angels And so he's he's looking at that and saying It was knowledge within the Corinthian community the wider Jewish community even and even in Paul's own thinking That to speak in an unknown language was to share in some kind of angelic language Yeah, and there's tradition for that in pre-Christian Jewish writing. So we have people who believed in forgetting exactly what it's called now, but believed that angels spoke their own sort of like heavenly language and that human beings could learn to speak in it through the help of the Holy Spirit. Is that exactly what's happening at Corinth? Is that a prediction of the spiritual gifts? Probably not, but we can imagine the Corinthians who are pulling on that idea or even Paul here pulling on that that sort of reference as a way of making sense of what the Corinthians were experiencing, which we would guess is the supernatural utterance of non-human languages sort of ecstatically coming out and enabling the people who do it to commune with the God who's making it possible. Correct. And I think anybody who's ever had a genuine experience with the gift of tongues that Paul is describing here would see it as fitting into that kind of category. We'll see later that it's not an uncontrollable thing, it's not something that happens to us, it's something that we are participating in. And so in a sense there is a human element to it, but there are definitely occasions when one speaks in tongues and it feels like something supernatural is happening in you through you and on your behalf. So yeah, we'll talk more about that when we get to those verses. But in any case Paul is saying this is not the gift that's meant to be prioritized in your gathering because it doesn't function the same way that prophecy does because you're not talking to people and when you're gathered together in church, you need to be speaking to one another for each other's benefit. In verse three he says, "But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort." Basically prophecy edifies the church. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. I've read that some cessation is here, take this as one of those like tongue and cheek moments by Paul as if like self edification were inherently bad. I think that that's absolutely wrong. Very clearly here throughout this chapter Paul is promoting the use of tongues. He's just trying to curtail it's use in their gatherings because it was out of control. It is good to edify yourself through the Holy Spirit and it's even better to edify the group when you're together as a church. Yeah, there's nothing in the New Testament which would indicate that self edification is bad. It's kind of it's a requirement to like where I think of where Jude says to keep yourself in the love of God. Like there is a that every Christian has to take up the responsibility to build themself up and to interact with the Holy Spirit on a personal level. And it also that critique which Gordon V talks about just doesn't work with the flow of the text with the argument that Paul makes. You know like immediately after you're in verse five he says, "I wish all of you spoke in other tongues." Correct. Right? And then he'll go on to say in what is it in verse later on in the passage that he speaks in tongues more than any of them. And so clearly Paul doesn't have this like degrading negative view of tongues. That's not his point at all. It seems that he's approving of the practice of speaking in tongues in a way that edifies the self but saying, "Hey listen, when you're together, when you gather together, it's not about let's all come and show off the spiritual gift that we have or you know or like God is going to find a way to move because your spiritual gift is super impressive." That's not the point. You need to actually be going out of your way to use spiritual gifts to build up the church around you because this is the way of love. It's not love to babble about haphazardly and just be like, "There it is. There was the gift. There was the thing." Aren't I awesome? Yeah. Which brings you back to what Paul says in chapter 12 when he says, "But gifts are given manifestations of this pair are given for the common good." Correct. "The whole purpose of the manifestations or the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for the common good of the church." Totally. "If you're utilizing a gift and your aim is not the common good, then you're utilizing that gift wrongly." And that's what Paul is talking about here. So as you just read, I would like every one of you to speak in tongues but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues. Now it would be working against Paul's argument here if he meant generally speaking, people who prophesy are greater or more important in the kingdom of God than those who speak in tongues. The whole context of these chapters is to say, "This isn't about a hierarchy." Yeah. The point that he's saying here is, "For the context of a gathering, the one who prophesies is greater." That gift is more useful than the one who speaks in tongues. Unless someone interprets so that the church may be edified. So if there's an interpretation of this unknown language that's mysteries in the Spirit, then it becomes very useful for the context of a church gathering. I've seen that happen a handful of times. In fact, we just received a story from a friend of ours, David Campbell, who was with another friend of ours, Landon McDonald at their church in Phoenix, Arizona. And they were having three nights of extended worship and seeking God. And on one of those nights a woman began to speak in an unknown tongue. It was like what Paul was describing here. It was mysteries in the Spirit. And then Landon called for anybody who heard it in English and two people came forward and gave interpretations of what they heard. What sounded like to the rest of the church as an unknown tongue to them sounded like English and they said what they heard and there are two testimonies corroborated one another. And so that's an example here of someone interpreting a tongue. Yeah. And here's what I think about that example. When I put that example next to Corinthians, there's like some flags, right? Like some things are going off. Like I'm like, okay, so this woman just began to speak in tongues. And then luckily Landon stewarded the moment really well and opened up an opportunity for interpretation that worked actually to edify the whole room like in a really amazing way. That's awesome. And I think this is where we have to read 1 Corinthians 14 as being a letter that is first of all, 1 Corinthians is written because of an occasion. So evidently the church that Paul is writing to is already familiar with the spiritual gifts. They're already experiencing them. So we're not getting a systematic introduction. Like Paul never takes the time here to say, hey, here's what these gifts are in case you forgot. You know what they are. And you're doing them. And so here are the limitations and the fences that you need to put up so that they can be helpful for the body. That's hard for us because we're not getting the, you know, we're all and what you'll find even when Charismatics read this these texts. We're all kind of like experiencing similar things with an applying our experience to the text in different ways. So debating about what's the word of knowledge and what's the word of wisdom and what's an interpreted tongue and what's a prophecy and what's a revelation. It's like we're all like applying the move of the spirit that we're experiencing onto the text and it can really muddy things up. The fact is it's it's not the kind of situation where we can read and go, oh we get exactly what Paul's envisioning and what he's imagining and we can just apply it perfectly. And that also means that the Corinthian church was a messy situation and the church ongoing is going to be a bit of a messy situation. Well, like the Holy Spirit is not like a multi-purpose tool. It's not like you can like point to the different, I don't know, like limbs of the Holy Spirit and say, well, this is for that function and this is for that function. You know, it's like you have a pocket knife. You can pull out each part, part and be like, well, this clearly does this and this clearly does that. The Holy Spirit is a person and he's going to manifest his presence in the church in a variety of ways and we have different ways of speaking about what those manifestations look like. But it's not necessarily something that you can always clearly define in terms of this fits into that category and this into that category because that's just not how people work. That's not how personal beings work. Absolutely. And so one of the tensions when when we're reading the text is it becomes easy to think, okay, here are the guidelines that Paul gives. If these guidelines aren't followed, then the Holy Spirit will never move. Well, I don't think that's exactly the case. I think that we can quench or resist the spirit if we choose to willfully defy these descriptions. But I think that church life as it's described here in Corinth and ongoing like in this story, the Holy Spirit will use situations that are less than perfect in order to edify his people. Well, exactly. And the Corinthian church is the perfect example of that. Paul is not not one time does he ever insinuate that God wasn't working amongst them? Yeah. That's pure. In fact, was working amongst them, even though they were out of order. Even in that example that we cited a couple of moments ago at our friend's church, someone could make a case and say, well, that person wasn't necessarily operating in order to start speaking in tongues in that moment. And there's a probably good biblical case for that. But with land and having the sensitivity and the wisdom that he had was able to take the moment and allow it to be a window for God to really move powerfully. Yeah, bring it back to the order in the scripture. Yeah. Well, if the church is really living inactive, that's what it's going to be like. Yes. Like we're going to have to figure this out as we go. Yes. And sometimes it will be messy. Yeah. That's what the spiritual gifts are going to require of us and openness to that. And it's a fear of that mess that I think keeps churches from having openness at all to the manifestations of the Spirit. Totally. And one of the things that's important for understanding the Corinthian church and what was happening there, kind of what you already pointed out is that Paul never seems to claim that the Holy Spirit wasn't in their midst and doing something significant. They just had misunderstandings of what that would look like if it was happening. And so the Holy Spirit is doing something, but then also there are things that are getting added into the pot, which are not from the Spirit, which is why Paul has to say, hey, the Spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. So you don't have to imagine a situation where the Holy Spirit is going to possess you and overtake you and make it impossible for you to shut up. Right. You know, almost as they're like, you probably are prophesying at that moment, but like the reason or the excuse you're giving for being out of order, yeah, in the sense of like you're you're doing this because you're out of control. That's not a valid excuse. Yeah. The reality is you're in control, buddy. Yeah. Just drop that excuse and let's do the threat way. like yes, the spirit is doing something among you, but you think that you'd be preventing that or resisting that if you shut up, and you wouldn't be. It's actually okay for you to not be weird to take a moment when you feel like the Lord has spoken to you and just wait your turn. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, let's keep moving. Verse six. Verse six. Go ahead. So now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in other tongues, how will I benefit you unless I speak to you with a revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? Make it go on. Even lifeless instruments that produce sounds, whether flute or harp, if they don't make a distinction in the notes, how will what is played on the flute or harp be recognized? In fact, if the bugle makes an unclear sound, who will prepare for battle? In the same way, unless you use your tongue for intelligible speech, how will what is spoken be known for you will be speaking into the air? Yep, so Paul is giving some examples here, some analogies, to help them understand why it's important that their speech be intelligible when they gather together. So he begins in verse six by saying, like, if I come to you speaking tongues, basically saying, like, I do this as well, I have this gift, but if I come only exercising that gift and not exercising the gifts of any sites, a short list here, revelation, knowledge, prophecy, or word of instruction, those are four, as best as I can tell, four distinct things. He's saying that's not going to benefit you unless I come with those things, and then he gives these analogies here of music instruments played, a trumpet that is sounded, and then he even uses the analogy of known human languages. All three of those analogies point to the main point that he's making is that intelligibility needs to be the priority when you come together. The reason, some people will say, like, well, when he gets to verse 10, undoubtedly, there are all sorts of languages in the world yet none of them is without meaning. Some people will point to that and say, well, look, he's saying that tongues is a known human language, but you can tell he's still in the realm of analogy there because of the way the text is structured. So after he finishes the analogy of the musical instruments and the trumpet, he says in verse nine, so it is with you. And then when he does the analogy of the known human languages, he says at the end of verse 10, at the beginning of verse 12, so it is with you. So we finish his both analogies with that same structural phrase, and that's a Gordon Fee points out exactly. The fact that the gift of tongues is analogous to speaking in a foreign language means that at least some of the time speaking in tongues is probably a non-human language because in this Fee's language is that we don't usually make analogies between two things that are literally identical. So it must be different in some sense from literally just speaking another language. Yes. And I think what's interesting about the sort of the situation Paul's envisioning, like, just to make it a little bit easier to understand, it's like, Paul's like, if I walked into your gathering, it'd be like if you and I walked into, you know, like a fifth grade music class, and all the kids just got their recorders for the first time, and the teachers like, go for it. You know, and they're doing like hot cross buns or whatever it is, and just like going, and it's just nonsense. And everybody's just going all at once. And the Corinthians are doing that. They're doing this. Yes. Except they think that they're sort of like, they're meaningless, they're not meaningless, but you get what I mean. They're, they're, they're a thing. Except they think they're crushing it. Yeah, that and they think, and we, we, maybe I'm reading into it a bit, but like, let's just take this as an example to try and clarify what Paul means. Imagine they think, for example, that tongues, in and of themselves have some kind of like metaphysical property that spiritually ignites and helps the person next to you. And so it's like, hey guys, start speaking in tongues at each other. And it's like, imagine like this kind of situation, like limitless, let's figure out the gifts. You got a bunch of like spiritual fifth graders walking around shouting in tongues at one another. And Paul's like, and then you have those weirdos in the back of the room who's like mom forgot to buy them a recorder in time. So they don't have it. So they're in the corner and they feel embarrassed and ashamed because they can't speak in tongues. And Paul's like, who is this helping? Like who in the world could this be beneficial towards? Or like we can imagine, for example, like let's say the story we just heard, so many speaks in tongues and she's heard in English. Well, that's amazing. So let's say some of the time the Corinthians are experiencing this kind of situation where someone will speak in tongues and the other person will, they're here getting Corn A Greek. And they're like, whoa, I totally understood that. So it's like, guys, if we all just start speaking in tongues, somebody is going to get the interpretation. So we'll just all do it. And if you get an interpretation, you know, maybe we'll stop. We'll get the interpretation and then we'll keep going. And they're like, okay, this is never going to work. This is never going to work in a way that actually benefits anybody. So Paul's work. Or maybe it is kind of working in some instances, but that doesn't negate the fact that generally speaking, it's really unhelpful to both believers and who we'll see later in the text to unbelievers as well. Yeah. So maybe it is working a bit. But Paul's like, guys, this could be way more beneficial. If you just listen to some of my advice and you follow some order. Yes. Yeah. Cool. So then verse 13, for this reason, the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding. I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. Otherwise when you are praising God in the spirit, how can someone else who is now put in the position of an inquirer say amen to your thanksgiving since they do not know what you are saying. You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified. So let's pause there. There's a few things that I think are worth saying here. Going back to verse 13, for this reason, the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. How do you read that? Do you think he's saying in general when you speak in tongues even privately, you should ask God for an interpretation or do you think that this is more specific to the church gathering? Well, man, I certainly think there might be permission for it, like when you're by yourself to seek an interpretation. And I do think that would be one of the ways that people would find out that they have a gift of interpretation, if that does happen. Yes, which Paul does outline as a specific gift earlier in chapter 12. Yeah. So Paul talks about the interpretation of gifts and he says that the person who receives a tongue should only speak it out loud unless they upon praying for an interpretation receive one or there is someone who is known to have the gift. Well, how do we figure out that people have the gift? So we're either picturing people can privately figure this out or imagine a situation where at one point it was okay to speak in tongues without an interpreter and then we just wait for the interpreters to come to light. I don't. I imagine the first one is probably the one that makes the most sense where people are speaking to themselves, they receive an interpretation, be that in the gathering or when they're alone. Yeah, or you're in a different kind of gathering to the one that Paul is describing here in 1 Corinthians 14. So he's describing what we would equate to like a Sunday morning service. Yeah. But there are other kinds of gatherings, right? So if you're in like a, let's say a small group per meeting and you feel like the Lord has given you a tongue and you want to give that tongue and then in that context where it's safe, you're around believers who are there to grow with you. In that kind of context, you can seek God for an interpretation and if not, if one is not given, it's okay. Yeah. You're just learning. Yeah. And we've also heard situations, both of us where people have said things like I believe God has given me a tongue, sharing it with the room and then seeking interpretation. Yes. And I think that's the way the spiritual gifts work. I mean, churches have to have that permission to figure out how these things work. Exactly. Whether or not we're gifted. Total. I mean, it's the same way that we find out if someone has been given a gift of healing. You need to pray for people to get healed. Yeah. And if they do, then we're like, oh, right. The Lord has given you that gift. That's amazing. Yes. Yes. Gifts of healings may not be someone who has permanently gifted to heal. It may be that God gives a specific gift to heal at a particular moment, but that for sure. Yeah. It's kind of an aside. I mean, it does, it is a good example of how confusing it can be. To feel like you're reading these gifts and you know exactly the way they get applied and the way they work because evidently, they're not all the same. Yes. Like, there are different rules depending, like it's just, it's confusing. Correct. It just works to the point that the church needs to be able to figure out how the gifts work. Because this text by itself doesn't give us all the minutia and all the practicals of how they should be applied and all the ways they might be able to go wrong. It's not all here. I think in general what this text invites us into is exactly what Paul says in the first verse of chapter 14 to eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit. Yeah. Like, we try to get overly precise in defining them because we love taking personality tests. Right. And we're in the category we fit into and once we're in that category that's like boom, we're locked in and we don't color outside those lines. That's not what what first Corinthians 12 to 14 is doing at all. It's describing various manifestations of the Spirit and then it invites you to eagerly desire the gifts of the Spirit, which means that if somebody is in need of healing, you can desire a gift for healing. Totally. Right. Like, that's, that's what I'm taking from this text. Even that phrase, "gifts of healings itself" in chapter 12 is about how God may give a gift of healing for a particular moment. It's not necessarily about somebody who's permanently gifted to heal everybody at all times. Yeah. And so the invitation here in this text is desire spiritual gifts and you can do that at any given point in time. Totally. It's like here are the things the Holy Spirit does to build a Pist church. Right. Follow the Holy Spirit as he leads you and the way that is going to be best for you to build up his church. Yes. It's not like you're like locked into this category of giftedness forever. It's not a personality profile. Totally. And we'd just be reading way too much into the text to think that that's what Paul's doing here. There seems to be a lot of wiggle room. Definitely. These gifts. For sure. One of the other things here that a cessation is much like when they point out that Paul is sort of like speaking sarcastically about self-advocation, they'll say here that when Paul says, "I will pray with my spirit and I will also pray with my understanding that speaking in tongues cannot be for prayer and worship because you need to pray with your spirit and with your understanding. They both have to be happening at once. Praying with your spirit by itself is meaningless because there's nothing intelligible about it." Only a child of the enlightenment would say that. Yeah, there's nothing cognitive about it basically. They're not learning anything or something like that. And I'm like, "Oh, you're being anostic. You're being anostic. We need to divide these two things one is better than the other." And it's only okay to pray to have a sort of spiritual experience if it comes with something cognitive. Yes. You know what I mean? Totally. With something exactly intelligible. Whereas it seems like Paul is saying it's totally okay and appropriate to pray and praise with your spirit, which also gives us an indication of what they gift us for. He's not evangelizing with his spirit. He's praising with his spirit. Correct. That's what I call it. Giving thanks in verse 17. You are giving thanks well enough when you're praying and praising with your spirit. Yeah. So that tells us what that gift functions as. It's God word in its direction. Yeah. And it seems to me that we need to be okay with the gift of tongues as some kind of mystical experience of God. I mean, if we can't be some kind of, if we get overly technical about it or practical about it and speaking in tongues isn't in its own right a mystical experience, then it defeats the whole purpose. I mean, if we're talking about people supernaturally speaking languages they don't speak, be they human or nonhuman. That's weird. That's super weird. Like that is very, very strange and obviously supernatural and mystical. And the Corinthians, like it seems like they're pretty down with the fact that that's a mystical experience. They're like, yeah. And they have a mystical worldview. Absolutely. Like they've not been disenchanted through the modern scientific way of thinking. So it's totally appropriate to be like, yeah, I'm praying with my spirit. Like I'm mystically experiencing the Holy Spirit and it's tangible and obvious. And I'll also cognitively think about God and meditate upon this scripture and pray with my actual words. But I don't have to pit those things against one another. Correct. Yeah, both are beneficial to you. Yes. But they're not praying with your spirit is not beneficial when you're doing an uninterpreted in a gathering. Right. It doesn't, just because you're mystically encountering God doesn't mean that it makes it, that everyone is now. We are all doing so by proxy. Yes, being brought into your mysticism. It doesn't quite work out. Yes. So then he says in verse 18, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you," which is just savage. Savage Paul. That's awesome. That's a dub. Paul's like, "I am way more spiritual than you guys." Yeah. But in the church, well, basically because Paul came to them, like if you go back to the beginning of 1 Corinthians, he came to them in unimpressive ways. Yeah. And one of the things that they would have found unimpressive about Paul is that he didn't come speaking in mystical languages to them. He came, what, knowing Christ and Christ crucified. He came with a simple gospel message. And so what we infer, because like you said at the start, Corinthians is like a back and forth dialogue. So there's, this is a response to an earlier letter and then they send him another letter and responses to this, which he then responds to in 2 Corinthians. Yeah. 1 Corinthians is actually 2 Corinthians. And 2 Corinthians is actually 4 Corinthians. It's crazy. Anyway, so there's a lot of that back and forth going on. And part of that, scholars infer is that they would say, "Well, you're not very like impressive because you don't come speaking to us in tongues." And he's unknown mysterious languages. You just come with your humble message of Christ crucified. And yet here's Paul is kind of like suddenly like, "Actually, I'm awesome. I speak in tongues a lot." Yeah, that's kind of according to your definition of awesome. Yeah, the bit at the beginning, he's like, "Yeah, I came to you knowing Christ." And I love, like as a person who loves to preach about the cross, I love, I will preach with that text. He seemed like, "Yes, we preach Christ and Him crucified." When Paul says that to the Corinthians, it's not a compliment. Like he's like, "I came preaching Christ and Him crucified because you were stupid." And I had to. I had to make things, like I had to dumb things down for you. You Corinthians who think that you're super wise and fantastic. So I don't know, do with that which you will. But in the church, I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than 10,000 words in a tongue. Now we haven't talked really at all about prophecy here. We've been focusing mostly on tongues. But it may be worth here just taking a couple of moments to comment on how Paul defines prophecy in this text. Earlier in verse three, we read that prophecy strengthens and courage is in comforts. Maybe your translation says that it edifies, it builds up the church. Here in verse 19, it seems to me because the same contrast between tongues and prophecy is carrying on. It seems to me here that Paul associates prophecy with instructing others. In Greek word, there's a catacasso, I believe it is, which means to instruct people in the way of a religion. So it's very didactic, it's teaching. So that's interesting as well because while prophecy is associated with things like receiving a revelation from God, something that we kind of consider to be in the moment spontaneous super natural. It also seems to be the case in this text that prophecy has a function of informing, maybe we should say, or hear the word that the use is instructing in the NIV. So I just think that that's interesting. Yeah, we had a dear listener, Pastor Jake and I had a long series of debates about how we define prophecy this week before this episode because I wanted to square things off and make sure we were ready to describe it. And actually super helpful and I wrote down, here was my takeaway from our conversation, I wrote down to give you, you also context of the way that we're using the reference to prophecy. So first of all, it's important to understand that prophecy is not something that begins in the New Testament, it's all throughout the Old Testament. When people think of the Old Testament prophets, they often think of predictions. Great visions of the throne room and predictions about the future. Those things are there and that's really important. Paul, as a matter of fact, does both of those. Those visions of the throne room and he makes predictions about the future in Romans 11, for example. So those things are in there. That is important, but when you actually begin reading the Old Testament prophets, you find that a very, very small percentage of their writings have to do with that and that the mass majority of time spent prophesying in the Old Testament is just the application of the Torah of the law and its promises, blessings and curses to present events. So the mass majority of the time, prophetic literature, is about the application of God's already spoken word to things that are happening right now and the way that they might relate to events forthcoming. And that'll come through various means, oracles to the nations, apocalyptic descriptions like in Zachariah. And it comes out in all kinds of a particular kind of like dramatic event when Ezekiel is to lay on his side for a long period of time and then his other side or like dig a hole in the wall and like put his stuff of her shoulder and crawl through it. Like there's these psychotromas. Yeah, cooking over poop and yeah, exactly. Building a diorama of Jerusalem, which is definitely not a recipe for Ezekiel bread. Yeah, you buy it, Trader Joe's by the way. But anyway, there's all these kinds of events. So like it is clear that they're getting a revelation from God that God is speaking to them. But even that is situated within the broader picture of what it looks like to apply God's word, Torah, to God's people. And that same thing carries over to the New Testament as well. You do see prophets acting in a way where they are predicting something. I'm thinking of like Agabas when he's predicting a famine that's going to come in the book of Acts. Yeah, in the book of Acts. Yeah. But that's not, I would say, the only or the main way that prophecy is depicted in the New Testament. The main way seems to be a fulfillment of what the Old Testament talks about where all of God's people become prophetic. That's the Acts 2 thing. Yeah. We're like the Spirit of God rests upon all of God's people so that sons and daughters will prophesy. And I think that that has to do with basically proclaiming what it means to live as God's people here and now in this age as a community of the Spirit who look forward to new creation to come. Totally. When we think through the Old Testament, you know, you got to read closely and begin asking a question like what, what did it, when Israelites called someone a prophet, what did they mean by that? And what did they think of that person? Like you can think of conversations through before the major and minor prophets with prophets like Elijah and Samuel, et cetera, and the way people would consult them. And sometimes they would say like, hey, what's going on with this future event? But then you have people coming along like, hey, I'm sick. What does God want me to do? Or hey, we want to go into battle against these guys. What should we do? And so on and so forth. They're consulting and saying, hey, what's the message from God for us right now for [BLANK_AUDIO] our present events. So like I would say my wife is very prophetic. In the sense that oftentimes when she is speaking to our church it is out of a burden of what she senses God wants to say to the congregation that we shepherd in terms of how they are to live in light of the gospel and the time and space that we inhabit. My approach to communicating to our church is different to that. Mine is much more teaching oriented in which in which case I am studying the scripture, I am doing the exogetical work and then I am applying it to them. Now some of that may be prophetic but I wouldn't put it in the category of prophecy. It begins with study. I would say her communication begins with function. Yes. And that is maybe a good distinction. Yeah it begins with revelation. And even that word revelation that Paul uses here we saw back in verse 6. Unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction, that word revelation is where we get our word of pucclips. So and that word can be used in different ways in the New Testament even across Paul's corpus. So like in Romans 1 Paul will say that the gospel is the revealing of God's righteousness. It is an apocalypse of God's righteousness. Well that's clearly not like an in the moment revelation from God kind of thing. That's like a general description of the like the gospel is a it's apocalyptic. It is a revelation of what God is doing in the world and how he operates. But then in Galatians he would say like oh I went to Jerusalem because of a revelation because of an apocalypse. Like I'm doing this thing because God told me in this moment that I'm supposed to go do it. So like the word can function in different kinds of ways depending on the context. I think here in the context in 1 Corinthians 14 it is something like an an option a message from God. And that tethers to what it means to be prophetic. That's kind of how I'm dysoned up. What do you think? I've always thought I remember when I first became a charismatic shortly after I heard people referring to C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chestergine's prophets. Like they have prophetic. And I was like you're like how? Yeah how I never heard them give any words of knowledge like I don't understand what you mean. But they're looking at they're giving an assessment of their times and laying out the Christian response. It's calling things like they are. I mean like like some of their writings are genuinely apocalyptic. But when I reach Hatsergine I'm like oh I'm seeing things the way they really are. Like I'm seeing things from Heaven's perspective as it relates to the modern age. Yes. I mean even like the abolition of man. Yes totally totally these are prophetic works. So so I think in a sense. So the way what I wrote down after our conversation is that a prophet is a person with messages from God for the people of God right now. Great. So prophecy is not about hey I'm making a prediction about what's going to happen in Israel tomorrow. It's what is God saying to us right now. And how do I and much of that comes with what is God saying to us right now through his scripture right. So and this is where I think like even Gehlical literate liturgies might confuse people and make them feel like prophecy is not around or whatever because someone can be sermonizing they can be what we would call preaching or teaching. But in reality they're sharing a prophetic work. Right. Right. Which is different. Yeah. It's a different thing. It's a different thing but there's a lot of overlap right because even when you're prophesying you there were there were no there were no prophets in the Old Testament good ones anyway who didn't have their brains soaked in scripture. Yes. Like when they're prophesying they are doing so with Torah like deeply ingrained in their minds. Yeah. Ezekiel was a priest. Correct. Yes. That thing memorized exactly. And so they're they're debar a phrase from our friend Nathan. Their prophetic imagination is soaked in scripture. Yeah. And so it's not like oh I get an function and then I figure out how to make it fit with scripture. It's I'm so soaked in the Bible that my functions are scriptural that I my functions let me say it this way are eschatological. Yeah. I I know how it is God has called his people to live in this space and time. And I'm going to bring that word to God's people. Yes. So a prophetic word the delivery of a prophetic word and and to sort of wrap up my point before like one of the things that gets confusing for for people is that we're so used to that 30 minute bit where someone talks during the the service service that's a sermon that's a preaching that's not prophecy. Right. And the New Testament is kind of like break. Yeah. Break that up a little bit. Yeah. Because it may be prophecy. Yeah. Very in big parts of it. Yeah. And sometimes it needs to be. Yes. You know. Well hopefully it is. Yeah. Exactly. Right. If if if your sermon doesn't include something of God's word to God's people for right now that it's probably a boring sermon. Yeah. I mean I can think of when so I think there's just two years ago shortly after our we do something called house offering. It's called. Yep. And it's a time like you know as many churches do where we come together and we celebrate what God is doing in our church and we pledge to give and to build our church. And shortly after that period I was up to preach and I remember I'm not normally like this but I had something something dropped on me that it was just like and that's the language I'm using. It cares. I was it was a download from the Holy Spirit. But it was like there was a a real strong indication that there was something in response to this that was for our church at that present moment that God wanted to communicate. And I told you basically what I was feeling and then we built scripture or teaching around. Yes. Yes. To deliver which is what the prophets were doing. Correct. So and this is one of the ways that like understanding prophetic literature is a genre in general is when you're reading the prophets what you're not reading is every single word in the page God spoke for a bit of the prophets and told them this is exactly what you need to say. Yep. It's here is my word for the people contextualize this. Use your gift and your office to communicate to this by bringing in the Torah the word of God that you know bring it in and communicate it to them so that they'll respond to it. Yes. Exactly. Instead of just they're sitting there. They're these are very gifted very smart people. That's what the prophets are. They're not just like sitting in front of a piece of paper like what was it God? No, they're not a court reporter. Right. They are they're synthesizing what God is communicating to them through various means and applying it to the people of God right then and there. I think that's a great word which kind of brings up the point of like prophecy doesn't always have to be like spontaneous. Yeah. There's always have to be like an in the moment thing that happens to you. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is like in the text Paul says like when someone's up prophesying. Yes. God gives you a revelation. And you're sitting there. Yeah. That the other person should sit down and then you give your prophetic work. I'm going to do that during your next sermon. I'm not going to give you permission. You're going to be I'm not going to give you permission and because the spirit of the prophets it's subject to the prophets. All right. You're not going to interrupt me. But like that's important. It's not always going to be an in the moment thing. You you may get something during the week going into your small group going into Sunday. Whatever it is. That's just as much like the spirit doesn't only work on Sundays. Right. He works seven days a week. He's with you and he wants to help you manifest his presence and power. So prophecy has a much wider definition than what we often realize. And it's definitely wider than future telling. Yes. You know, there's a different we call those people's people seers right in the Old Testament. Right. That's something distinct prophets are not fortune tellers. They do predict the future. Yes. They can. Yes. But not that's not the the majority of what they're doing. And the bulk of what they're doing is being able to look at what God is doing. Yeah. Right in front of them. Yeah. And explain it to people. Yeah. So they can participate in it. Correct. So in that sense, all all prophecies apocalyptic. It's all revelatory. Maybe a lot of it. Apocalyptic by genre needs to involve. Well, okay. Like specific kinds of imagery. A lot of prophetic material in the Old Testament is apocalyptic, but not all of it. Apocalyptic, in a sense. Like not like it's not like ancient Near Eastern apocalypse. But it's like it's revelatory. It's helping you see what you can't see. It's eschatological. Yes. That's sure. Let's go with whatever. I just like calling things apocalyptic. It means it's going to work. It's awesome. You know, I'm doing something that's going to end the world. Anyway, here like in verse 19, at least in some sense, prophecy is associated with instructing others, which I think is very interesting. Yeah. That was a great rabbit shell to go down. Correct. Glad we did that. Verse 20. Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children in regards to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the law, it is written with other tongues and through the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me. Says the Lord. So here Paul is quoting Isaiah to make a point basically that God uses tongues to what hardened people in their unbelief. Yeah. Was that how you would say it? Well, from what I understand, the context of Isaiah is basically God using Gentile nations. Yeah, to speak to Israel. Right. So Israel, the Israelites are hearing the truth proclaimed a language which is not Hebrew or Arabic, you know, not their language, which is offensive and that would harden them against those people. This is like what we're about to read this section of the passage is like the most confusing and highly disordered. And I mean, you can even see as we go verse 22, speaking in other tongues, then, is intended as a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Right. While prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for believers. If therefore the whole church assembles together and all are speaking in other tongues and people who are outsiders or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds? But if all are prophesying and some unbeliever or outsider comes in, he is convicted and is called and by all and is called to account by all. The secrets of his heart will be revealed and as a result, he will fall face down and worship God proclaiming God is really among you. The thing that's confusing in this text is that Paul says that tongues are a sign intended not for believers, but for unbelievers. And then he tells you, "Hey, don't speak in uninterpreted tongues." around unbelievers because they'll be confused and said you should prophesy when they're around. So I think what he's saying is like when you speak in tongues in an uninterpreted way in church and it's chaotic and out of order, that causes an unbeliever to come in and reject the gospel. Yeah. And therefore that puts them in the same category as Israel was in Isaiah when pagan nations or Gentile nations would speak to Israel in their own tongue and Israel would be confused and rejected. So he's saying like when basically when you operate the way that you're operating in Corinth, you are you're doing the same kind of thing that Isaiah describes about Israel here in this, I think it's Isaiah 28. Does that make sense? Yeah, you're going to make people not want to be Christian. Correct. And so it seems like in sort of the best explanation I've read is that the language of sign has a double meaning, a good sign and a bad sign. So tongues are a sign of judgment. Correct. On unbelievers. Yeah. And in the same sense, we might even be able to imagine that not because God wants to judge them. Yes. But but they're interpreting it as judgment. Right. Because they don't understand what the heck you're saying. Well, it's it's they're it's becoming obvious in what they're being they're excluded that they're on the outside of this thing. Correct. And whereas prophecy is a good sign. Right. To believers. Yep. Or even done believers. Yes. Yes. So it's like they're both signs in different ways. And if we if we follow the rules on them, then it won't be this way. I think the best way to like to say this really simply is everything up until now has been concerned with the effect of tongues and prophecy on believers. And everything after this moment is now talking about the effective tongues and prophecy on unbelievers or people who are coming to inquire about their religion. So we've been now talking we but up until this point, we've been talking about, hey, is this edifying for the church? And now we're talking about, is this helpful for the nonbeliever? Yeah. So let's briefly get to this bit at the end in verse 24 that if you're all prophesying in some unbeliever or outsider comes in, he is convicted by all and is called to account by all the secrets of his heart will be revealed. And as a result, he will fall face down and worship God proclaiming God is really among you. Now this is typically read and interpreted as what we would call a word of knowledge, which is something that we obviously affirm and believe in where the Holy Spirit gives a revelation or speaks to someone about somebody else's business. Yep. And Christian. Something that you otherwise would not know. Yes, he spontaneously brings to mind something about another person that you could not possibly have knowledge of and has you share that with them. The secrets of their heart are revealed, their hearts are softened and they want to become Christians. Now that's the way that it's typically read. Yes. Would you say that that's the best way to read it? I don't think that that's what's going on here. Great. Although I do think that words of knowledge can lead to that kind of thing. I think what's going on here is Paul is is talking about how when the gift of prophecy is happening, you are proclaiming God's word to God's people for this right now moment. In context, that that means gospel type stuff. Yeah. Right? Like you're proclaiming the gospel. And the result of that is that unbelievers are led to repentance and they fall down the worship of God and they claim and this part is in quotes now. God is really among you, which again is a quote from Isaiah. And that's describing like when the Gentile nations grab a hold of like the hem of a Jews robe because they're like they want to go to Zion. We recognize that your God is the one true God. It's basically as a passage about conversion of Gentiles. Yeah. And Paul is pulling upon that here to say that's what's going to happen to unbelievers when everybody's prophesying. So I don't think that that's just about like words of knowledge type stuff like you previously defined. I think this is more about the spirit inspired proclamation of the gospel, which then again brings us back to the broader definition of what prophecy is. Yeah. So what do you think? No, I'm with it. That makes sense. I mean, I think it can include both. I think people coming into the church and experiencing intelligible declarations of something that God has spoken be it on a broad gospel application level or very narrowly to an individual. I think it could include both of those. Oh, yeah, exactly. It could still be specific. But it's it has to tie to like the message of salvation. Yes. Yes. Because the response is that they should want to become Christians. Right. And not simply just how did you know that about me? Correct. I guess you're got to be telling someone something about themselves that you are not likely to know doesn't automatically lead to God's here. I want to give him my life. And that's especially important because for us, maybe in like 21st century Western world, somebody knowing something about you would be really shocking that they've received spiritually, but it wouldn't be in pagan right in the pagan world. Yeah. Where there are all kinds of seers and prophets and all kinds of people oracles who do those kinds of things. Yes. So it's like, oh, great. Yeah. God is among you. Like there really is a there is a lowercase G God here who sits on some pantheon of other deities and and he speaks and he talks to you. That's awesome. But the but that's not what conversion is and that's not the message of the gospel. So there there must be something more to it than simply I know this about you. Correct. There needs to be a gospel application of that knowledge then. Anyway, cool. So let's see if we can get through the rest year. The rest should breeze through. Verse 26, what then brothers and sisters, whenever you come together, each one has a him, a teaching, a revelation, another tongue or an interpretation. Everything is to be done for building up. If anyone speaks in another tongue, there are to be only two or at least where at most three, each in turn and let someone interpret, but which I love that textual bit where he's like, it should only be two. Or I guess if you're feeling really crazy, you could do three. At most three. You could also do three if you have to. But if there is no interpreter, that person is to keep silent in the church and speak to himself and God. Yeah. It's pretty self explanatory and he's just carrying over the same thing that he was talking about at the start of the chapter where all things need to be done in order. And just because the spirit is moving doesn't mean that the gathering needs to become chaotic. Yeah. You may feel like you are being led by the spirit to speak in tongues, but if there's already been a handful of people that have been invited up to do that, you can wait till next week. Yeah, it's okay. You don't have an interpretation. It's not about you. It's okay. That's be quiet. You can pray in tongues really quietly by yourself. Totally. Don't bother people. Yep. Great. Then he goes to prophecy. Two or three prophets should speak and the others should evaluate. But if something has been revealed to another person sitting there, the first prophet should be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one so that everyone may be encouraged and the prophet's spirits are subject to the prophets since God is not a God of disorder but of peace. Yeah. I love this. That Paul has to be like, hey, can you guys just take turns? Take turns. Which speaks to the fact that you're not out of control. Yeah. Which is, and the question is where the where the Corinthians is getting that from. And there are a number of places in the Old Testament that I think they might be and even through acts that they might be reading through into their experience. Now, so we think of in the book of numbers where the 70 elders receive the spirit and they just begin to prophesy or when Saul and two separate occasions and the people with him just begins to prophesy and take up a close and take up a close that happens as well. Holy people get naked in the presence of God. Apparently him, David, you know, I mean, they still got some clothes on. Yeah. Yeah. Not totally like just down to the tunic or something. Yeah. Yeah. Send their box or briefs, praise and God. That's my next play. All right. All right. And and then a number of other occasions where we even think in the book of acts where what's what's that second group? The third group to speak in tongues. It's acts after two, Cornelius and then Samaritans. No, disciples and Ephesus. Samaritans don't explicitly speak in tongues. Okay. We assume that they do, but the third group who explicitly do are disciples and Ephesus. Yes. It's it's these guys who it says that they spoke in tongues and prophesied, which I didn't know as before. And they these guys are not like they're probably not prophesying in the sense in the full sense that we're using it like the complete like application of God's truth for God's people right there, but they're probably willfully proclaiming gospel truths in a it's hard to like fill in the blanks and say exactly what they're doing because it doesn't say just sort of assumes that we would know. And that's the same case. Yeah. But they also probably weren't like reading each other's mail, right? Yes. Like and so again, I know this about exactly that's probably not what's happening there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, it's probably more broadly they're like proclaiming the gospel. The Messiah has come. Yeah. The one we've read about in the scriptures. Yes. He's come. He's here totally incredible. So the Corinthians probably have probably seems to have this sense that like if God gives him a word, they got to get up there right now and just start talking. And Paul's like, Hey, listen, I know you think that you're the elders receiving some of Moses's spirit chill out. That's not you're misunderstanding that completely. The spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. The spirit who gives you a prophetic word is not forcing you to share it. Correct. Which also allows for the possibility of disobedience. It does. And refusing to share something that the spirit has called you to share. Yep. Which means that this prophecy experience is quite dynamic. It is. You know, we are involved. Yes. We're super. And that goes for the Old Testament prophets as well. There's a lot of them in the process in the delivery. And that's why God will say like, if you don't give them this word, their blood is going to be on your hands. Yes. Yeah. Right. To his to his EQ. And so like that explains why for me, like when I'm giving a word of knowledge, just to be very personal, why I often communicate through really silly metaphors and pictures, like children's movies and things like that and Lord of the Rings and stuff. Because God is communicate in order for me to understand what God is trying to say to them, often it comes through a lens and like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. I know exactly how to deliver this. And then I use that to explain people how I got to the conclusion from what God shared with me. And maybe it doesn't work that way all the time with every person. But the point is that when I prophesy or or whatever it is that I'm doing, there's a good bit of me in there that God has intentionally given that word to me so that it can come through in a way that will actually work for the the person that I'm speaking to. to. It's not like there's like a prophetic word floating around up there and the first person to pray like gets to have it. It's God deliberately speaks to whom He wants to communicate that word. But that doesn't mean for the Corinthians that we speak out of control. Right. Or out of turn. Yes. Yep. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed, oh there it is again, prophecy instructs, and encouraged. It builds up. Which by the way Wayne Grewdum says there's no connection between prophecy and teaching. I was reading his book on prophecy in the church. What does he say? Like I agree with you. They are distinct gifts. Yeah. Or I agree with him. They're distinct gifts. He's like basically there's not a teaching element to prophesying. It's hard to see that. He uses that example in Acts that I just gave that they couldn't have been doing any teaching. So because they're brand new believers. So that prophesying must not have a teaching element to it. But to believe the gospel is to inherently know the gospel. Right. Right. And when I say the gospel, I don't just mean like Jesus died on a cross for your sins. I'm talking about the entire Christ event. I'm talking about his everything from the fact that God has become a man has inserted himself into our existence through the through the cross through his resurrection and through his ascension to the right hand of the Father where he's currently interceding on our on our behalf and shepherding creation to renewal. Like all of that is the gospel. And like that is one big eschatological thing that the entirety of the Old Testament points toward. Yeah. That is what you're that's what you're believing. Yeah. It's like you believe that Christ is Lord. So like I don't need to be like trained as a teacher to be filled with the spirit and to be able to proclaim that prophetic truth. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. That's sufficient. Let's get to the woman thing before we end. Okay. I want to say stuff but we got to get to this woman thing. You can say so we have time. Yeah. That's an hour and two minutes. I mean, I'll probably get to the woman thing. Okay. Great. Yeah. Okay. God has not a good God of disorder, a bit of peace as in all the congregations with Lord's people. Verse 34, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. But must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. What in the heck is going on here? So based on verse 36 that comes up where Paul says, "Or did the word of God originate from you or did it come to you only?" I'm just giving this as an example of how highly contested this passage is. Some people will take that. Some commentators will say, "This is an indication that something in what we just read was a slogan." So Paul is using, he's quoting them and using it to criticize them. So like one reading for example says like verse 36, "You're saying women can't teach. This is what you're saying, but did the word of God originate with you only?" Like can it, does it have to come through the guidelines that you've created? That's sort of like one of the ways that it's been interpreted. I'm not really super convinced by that. Others will say even our conservative Gordon Fee that this is not authentic to Paul. Like this passage is an interpolation, an interpolation of 1 Timothy 2 into 1 Corinthians 14 by a later writer at a later time. Basically because the scriptures were copied down by hand through scribes, hundreds and hundreds of times that at some point in time, very early on, because all the manuscripts have this. Very early on a scribe wrote this down in the margins. Kind of, I don't know, thinking like this was a good thing to add into Paul's comments on church order. And because of that interpolation, it then got added into the actual text itself. So that's the second option. A third option would be that it doesn't mean what it seems to mean on its face. Because on its face, it seems to mean that women are never permitted to speak in church ever, which contradicts exactly what Paul says back in chapter 11 when Paul says that women do pray and prophesy in the gathering. Right. And prophesy can not be silent. Nor in this context is praying. So women clearly in the church and carth are talking. They're not totally silent in the gathering of the church. So it can't mean that this is saying that women are supposed to be absolutely silent when the church gets together. But that's what it seems to mean on its face. So there must be some kind of alternative interpretation. Yeah. So the alternative reading that Gurdam, for example, gives that I think is pretty popular is that Paul specifically here, if this is authentic to Paul, he's talking about the evaluation of prophets. So when prophetic messages are being evaluated, women shouldn't speak in that instance because the people who are evaluating are meant to be the people who are deciding if this message should be authoritative for the church. And so it's almost like a prophetic evaluation is like an elder thing. Right. And the people who are the men who are in charge are the ones who are to do the evaluation. It's not just two other people who have prophetic gifts, the prophets that are evaluating its authoritative people, known capital P prophets who are figures of authority and who are leading the church. And the reason the way that it gets read is where Paul says, first 29, two or three prophets should speak and the other should weigh carefully what is said. And so this gets broken up into two clauses. So first, the two or three prophets should speak. And then first 30 to 33 are Paul explaining that. And then he picks back up on the second half of the second clause in first 29 and the other should evaluate and explains how the evaluation process should work. And for him, that means that women should be silent during the evaluation of prophecy and but are to submit themselves. Right. So obviously, and one of the things that that Gurdon points out is that speaking speaking and insubordination are not opposites in every single instance. Right. So it can't be, it needs to be some kind of speaking, which is actively insubordinate. And in this case, it would be claiming to have some kind of authority over the evaluation of prophecy. Yeah. I think it's so Gurdon is obviously a very conservative scholar. We like that. He's very complimentary and by the way, yes, he is very complimentary. But so even he, my reason for pointing that out is like someone like Gurdon is not going to go for the argument that this is not, that this, this text is not written by Paul. Yeah. Like he's, he's not going to go for that. So he's going to have to find a way to square this text, specifically to reconcile this with first Corinthians 11. Exactly. Because if, I mean, you can read what he has to say about women in the church. He is not like, he does not have an egalitarian reading by any means of first Timothy too at all. At all. Gurdon will tell you there is no context in which women should teach. Right. That's going to be his position. But even someone in that position, because of the overall context of women speaking in first Corinthians, he is not able to say here that that's what Paul means. So he's not keen on inventing or reading a first Corinthians that lends itself to egalitarianism, but portrays the text. He's actually saying like the only way to make sense of this bit of first Corinthians 14 and what Paul's already said in verse 11 is if, and he gives a lot of text religions, but is if this applies to the evaluation of prophecy specifically, which is the closest possible context. Fees argument is that this ver, this passage is a bit too far removed from the context of evaluating prophecy for this to make sense. When you read it on its face, it does feel very abrupt in its insertion. So I can see how fee gets to his argument with this not being authentic to Paul. I'm not quite prepared to go that far, but I can see how he makes an argument and fee is also a very conservative biblical scholar. So it seems valid. But nonetheless, and sort of the conclusion we would take is, for example, like in our church, when people ask, we teach our essentials in just a room over from where we're recording now, and people often ask me why, when I teach those courses, why women teach in our church. And one of the important caveats we'd give is that like, well, you think that's teaching because you're used to how American literaries work. We call that that's prophesying, what she's doing up there is prophesying. And it, according to Paul and first Corinthians, there's some of that that does, there's some instruction in there. And there's some of that that includes the exegiting of scripture because that's what prophets do. And so some things that we might call teaching, that's not what Paul is talking about. I think that's a fair explanation. And I would also say, I am comfortable with a woman teaching in a church because I don't, I don't read first Timothy the same way that Gurdam reads first Timothy. I see it as a prohibition of women from being elders more generally, but not more strictly the practice of teaching. This is not an episode about that. So we don't have time to get into all the details of that. But the point is Paul says, Paul talks about teaching in first Timothy too, and then first Timothy three, Timothy three, which is the only other time teaching gets mentioned. He uses as a qualification for elders. Correct. And he uses a, a hinge statement. It is a trust worthy saying at the beginning of chapter three to connect those two things. And every single time Paul uses that statement in any of the pastoral epistles, first second Timothy and Titus, he only ever uses that statement to connect two things, never to introduce something brand new. So when he goes from not permitting a woman to teach in first Timothy to 11, 12, 13, to then it is a trust worthy saying. And then he starts talking about the qualifications for an elder. The point there is that Paul is linking the, the, those two passages together, the whole thing is about eldering. So what I would say is that every elder is a teacher, not every teacher is an elder. Yes. That there is a, there's a difference between those things. And, and so I guess we did go into it. But that's, that's a little bit of an inside into what I see there. So I'm even comfortable saying a woman can teach in a church. that's not the same thing as being an elder. And if you think that it is, then that means that every single person who's not an elder should not be permitted to teach. - Correct. - Which there are not very many churches that are willing to do that. - That would get me in some trouble. - That would get you in a little bit of trouble. You'd have to ordain me. I would have to ordain you as an elder. - Which can't be done. Not for some time. (laughing) I'm just gonna tell you right now, if you wanted to ordain me, I'd deny your request. (laughing) - So, but I guess the point is, it's not as cut and dry as, oh, there's a woman holding a microphone. Why is she doing that? There is actually quite a bit of biblical data that supports the idea of that is to be understood as something more than just fitting into the category of teaching. - Yeah, yeah. And I do think that it's frustrating sort of to conclude here, where anyone who will make it seem that these passages about ecclesiology, just like about the gifts, make it seem like it's super black and white, really easy to read and interpret. It's not that simple. And again, this comes from remembering that the epistles are occasional literature. And Paul knows what the people he's writing to, he knows what they know. He doesn't know what we know. He knows what Timothy already knows and thinks about leadership and teaching. And he knows what the Corinthians already think about leadership and the spiritual gifts and is writing into that space. We are outsiders looking in at a conversation and it's our job to try really hard to work out the context and see what conclusions we can reasonably and honestly come to based on what the text says. And so one of those really strong things that we know for sure, based on the text of 1 Corinthians, that we can't walk away, taking as a matter of fact, is that women are never allowed to have microphones at church, because that creates a lot more problems than it solves for this text. - 100%, hence even Gurdam's interpretation of this passage. Then he goes on in verse 36, "Or did the Word of God originate with you? "Or are you the only people it has reached? "If anyone thinks they are a prophet "or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, "let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you "is the Lord's command. "But if anyone ignores this, they themselves will be ignored." - Awesome. - I love Paul. "Therefore, my brothers and sisters, "be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues. "Even after all of the chaos, "he still doesn't want them to forbid speaking in tongues." - Don't overreact. - But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. - Amen. - So, there it is. - All right. - That's a walk to a first Corinthians 14. - Praise God. Thanks for listening everybody. Hit us up with your questions. Let's go.