Tommy Lee

Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert experts on expert. I'm Dak Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Patman. Hi. What are you drinking? I'm drinking a coffee. Okay. But I don't want any more of it. But I It's like a blank key at this point. It's a safety blanket. Yeah, that makes you know who needs a safety blanket? Tommy Lee. Tommy Lee. Tommy Lee is a musician. He is the co-founder and drummer of Motley Crew. I mean, I think he's the most famous man in the 90s. His albums include never a dull moment. Andro Tommy Land the ride. Shout at the devil. Dr. feel good. His new album is out now. Tommy Land rides again. I mean, this guy did it all Monica. You really? He has lived a life. Yeah. Please enjoy Tommy Lee. He is an outstanding man. Dak, you're at the fight that we were at. Yeah, yeah, Saturday. Yeah. We were going to say hi, but we don't want to be like that. But I saw you. Well, this has happened to me twice in like 24 hours, which is I saw you there. I was like, I don't want to say hi because I'm interviewing him in a minute. And then I saw a dude at a party on Sunday who were interviewing on Wednesday. I was like, oh, this is so awkward. Normally I would sit and talk to this dude, but I don't want to like find out a bunch of interesting shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He wants to talk about today because there's like a viral clip going around of him from that fight of people. He rubbed his nose when the camera was on. Oh, I'm so excited. I think you're talking about it. Yeah. So why not? Because he's so nice. He's like, he's fucking deep down. Oh my god. He's like, he's like, he's been read since saying. They cut David's fade. And he also does a little. He's fucking scratching his nose. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it looks like the two you were just in the bathroom banging the devil. Just doing the gag. Good thing they didn't cut to you also. And that's a very common thing. I'm surprised they didn't choke tax like. Yeah. All the silver people. All the silver dudes. I'm roping on. The little piece of glass that the flowers came in at the gas station to get my pipe ready at the fight. Do you ever get that dark? Do you ever get the little flowers with the little glass pipe? What's the little no? There's all these hacks when you smoke crack and all the downtown gas stations had all these inexplicable items for sale. Like who's buying fucking these little roses? Yeah. But it's really just to get this little glass rod that you could use as a pipe. And then these old little bits of like SOS pad or Brillo pad that you also want to pack in there. Like all this random shit would be at the counter at more gas station. Yeah. Oh my god. Wow. I get so excited that I'm like, oh my god, dude. Fuck. I've been sober for a year. Yeah. Yeah. And I celebrate. Yeah. That's the fucking problem. I can never go past a year because I'm so pumped that I actually pulled that off the impossible. Yeah. How long is this celebration last? What's the year debating whether or not? Maybe six months. Okay. Sure. A little six months celebration. And then then you're demoralized and you hate everything. Yeah. Yeah. You want to kill yourself. Yeah. Okay. I'm done. And you're like, while we're hearing. Yeah. Yeah. Have you done ever longer than a year? Yes. I think three years was the longest I've done. Oh really? Yeah. I don't know why I didn't celebrate between those years. I must have been on some other plane. Yeah. What do you think was going on? You were probably very interested in something or distracted by something. You know, I was probably really busy. If you're always on tour, you're just going and going and going all the sudden a couple of years goes by like that two and a half years in one tour. Then all of a sudden you're like, dude, I did it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you go, I've earned some reward for this. Yeah. Come on. I deserve rewards. Oh my god. I've been in good place. I know. This is the pathetic thing about how it was in recovery is. Yeah. You behave like all human beings behave and you think you deserve a ticker tape parade. Yeah. I haven't cheated on my girlfriend in two years. Yeah. Yeah. Like everyone, man. Yeah. deserve a fucking parade. That is awesome. And when you go out on those after the year, do we do everything? Are there some stuff you just can't ever do again? Like for me, I got burned by the opiates thing and I just for me, it's so seared into getting off of them is so horrendous. It's just beyond. Yeah. That to me, it's like, oh, I don't think in any scenario, even fucked up would I go back down that one. Yeah. Are there ones you won't fuck with or when it's on it's on? Yeah. That's one of them. I don't really fuck with that. I haven't fucked with that in a long time with heroin. That's one of those that you go, oh, I could die. And you're watching people around. This is scary. Our dying because it feels so fucking good. You're like, this is way too good. I know myself well enough. We shouldn't fuck with this. Yeah. That kind of vibe. If I could fit for a while and there was a point where I was with my bass player and we were just doing a shit lot of heroin and we ran out. And it's like probably three, four in the morning and we're like, fuck, dude, what are you going to do? The moment we unscrewed the cap on a fifth of Jack and filled up the cap with Jack and then pulled a couple syringes and we're shooting Jack Daniels. I was like, it was at that moment the way I went, okay. What is happening? We could just drink this but we're shooting it. This is fucking wrong and somebody's going to die. And Sanity's taking hold. No one's thinking clearly. He jacked. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one I realized. Do you even remember the sensation of shooting booze? Did it do anything differently? Yeah, you could taste it. Oh, wow. Like you taste heroin. Yeah. You taste heroin. Yeah, there's definitely a taste to it. Yeah. Well, have you ever had a beef 12 shot for a house? Yeah, I have. Yeah. And you taste it kind of immediately. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I wouldn't expect that. I would not expect that. What is it? What does it taste like? Not to trigger anyone, but I am curious. Yeah, how would you describe the taste? Okay. I'm sorry. Okay, but medicine. Okay. And, uh, yeah, medicinal. I'm like referring to like wine. Yeah, exactly. A hint of chocolate. Yeah, notes of it. Let's start at the beginning. You are born in Greece and Athens. Yeah. Yeah. And your dad was in the US Army. He was a sergeant. Yep. What was he doing there? 1959 to '62 or something? Yeah. He was stationed there and he does staff sergeant of the motor pool. He ran where they fix all the tanks, trucks, anything with motors in it. So he was mechanical. Yeah. Full on mechanic. I know he built a monkey enclosure in your backyard at some point. So I know you have some grocery skills too. We had a monkey growing up. It was fun, then. But mom was Miss Greek beauty pageant. Yeah. Contestant, right? Crazy huh? So she a mega babe. Super hot. Tell my father once in a while I go, Dad, I get it. I get it. I would have married her too. She's gorgeous. Beautiful. Stunning woman. Was she keen to move to California or was that a bummer for her? If she falls in love with this dude in Athens and then he wants to go back to California? Yeah. I don't know if she had a choice. I would just assume she'd be excited to come to America. I don't know. The crazy thing was neither one of them understood each other. They communicated through drawings. Oh really? You know, my dad, he had a translation dictionary and that's how they would communicate was through drawing pictures and a chicken and an egg and we need to go and get this. She must be so hot if he was willing to do this. Right? You imagine it's going to be hot enough. I'm going to communicate with you. It is cute, but I mean, you got to because you don't know what her personality is like because you're not talking to her. Right. So you're just like, this girl's so stunning. I'm willing to communicate via pictures. Or you just don't care about cartoons. Yeah, yeah, cartoons. So I presume she learned English. Did he ever learn any Greek? He learned enough to get better at communicating. A piece is father and law occasionally. It's funny because dude, I went to this dream analyst dude. Like years ago, we were talking and I was telling him about my dream. The conversation shifted to me talking about how my mom and my father would communicate right through pictures and stuff. And he goes, that explains all your artwork on your body. He goes, at that age, that's what you saw as communication. And he goes, so you now are communicating on the outside of your skin. And I was like, I never thought about that, but isn't that cool? Yeah, it's cool. That makes sense. What do you have for siblings? Because you went to her ballet recital. Yeah, dude. And what did you see there? I joined ballet. Smart moves. Right. I went to some of her practices and stuff. And I was like, man, this is cool. Yeah, yeah. Way cooler than like playing baseball or football and getting snapped with towels in the locker room. I was like, I'd rather be doing this. Yeah, hang on to all the girls. Yeah, the shit's gay. Yeah, I'm not down. Yeah, but that's what they accused you of right once you had a recital coming from page of the daily paper and then that day I went to school and just got pounded like, dude, what is up? I literally quit the next day. >> Yeah. >> What age do you think that was? >> 16. >> Oh, that lane? >> Yeah, that is late. >> Oh, wow. >> High school. >> What was the vibe in Covina in the '70s? Is it just like Americana? There were jocks and burnouts. And where were you shuffling into this mix? >> I don't only go to my favorite two classes in school. I was kind of a loner. I didn't really hang with many people. I'd go to my favorite two classes, which were its music and shop, wood shop and shit, like make silk, squid, t-shirts, and shit. Like creator shit. I would bail home and I would go play my drums in the garage. So I didn't really hang very much at school. >> Yeah, you're like an introvert, yeah? >> Yeah, totally. >> I think that might shock people because you've had such an out loud life. >> Yeah. >> I'm really nervous just hanging out with you guys. >> Oh, god, seriously. >> You should have been. >> It's really sweet. >> I'm being brutally honest. >> I like you honoring you with a wife feeder today. I love it. Yeah, that was for you. >> Yeah, that was for you. >> I know and you're all fucking bluffed out, dude. >> What, you're working out? >> I work out pretty compulsively, yeah. >> You did. >> You did. >> You looked like it. >> Fuck. >> Did you gotten into, like, suffering as a way to evade addiction? Like, I think if I suffer a few times during the day, like, I saw an Oh, which is miserable, and I can't run. And then I work out which is miserable. If I do these three miserable things, I feel like I've earned a good mood the rest of the day. >> Oh. >> Have you ever tried that, like, going the opposite direction? >> I have tried that, but I think my go to, now, just like seven years ago, I've gotten into the world of bonsai. >> Oh, yes, I know this. >> Oh, yeah. >> To me, that's like my- >> That's your good addiction. >> My drug of choice these days, like, it's the reverse of the torture. I don't know. This is just, I think, a kinder way of- >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, you're caring for something. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> And so you have, like, an implicit purpose, and it's slow and methodical. >> Hours can go by, and you don't even give a fuck about anything. Like, it is the most beautiful release. >> What do you do? You trim it. >> You're doing everything from fertilizing to wiring branches where you want them to grow. >> Oh, wow. >> That's so cool. >> I learned this a while ago. >> It's awesome. >> Talk about it. It takes, like, years and years to get them to look the way they do when you see them. >> Years, bro. It would be silly if I didn't mention. There's a lot of, like, watch and paint dry sometimes. You know, you're like, I've been working on this tree for fucking four years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is it? >> Right. >> Yeah. You're trying to, like, feed them so they grow faster. And so it's good for the impatience in me. >> Yes. >> In the restlessness, it calms you on the tree's speed. >> A year ago, at that time, you had 43 bonsai trees under your care. >> Yes. >> How many do you have now, is it worse? >> I'm down to 38 now. >> Because you've killed five of them? >> Yes, sir. >> Oh, no. >> So can you push them too hard as far as trying to keep them miniature? >> You can do that. >> It's, like, having like a child athlete. >> No. >> If you do too much work to them at once, let's say it's time to repot something because it's getting root bound. If you do a bunch of the hard cuts and a lot of trimming and working, and then repot it, it's too much. Sometimes on the tree, you'll stress it out, because it's building new roots and new branches. >> Yeah. >> So you can stress a tree out and kill it, and I've done that. >> And how do you feel? Do you take that hard? >> Yeah, dude, it's, that's a bummer, you're something you spent. >> You know, years with, and you're like, I just killed this motherfucker. What are you doing? >> And will you be sad for a while? >> So long. >> Over at? >> Oh, yeah. I still keep like the branches, the deadwood. >> The remnants. >> Yeah, I keep, oh my God. >> That's sweet. >> It's like skeleton or whatever. >> Yeah. >> So like Mike Tyson and his pigeons. >> Totally. >> Yeah. >> It's like, yeah. >> And possibly sweet activity for so much. >> Always be due to pigeons. >> It just cares for them. He loves pigeons. He's got like the sweetest heart. He has hundreds of pigeons, and as a kid, he was a loner, and he just had these pigeons. So, and someone like stole his pigeons, that was his first fight. Well, he fought back. He used to get bullied, and then he was like, oh shit, I'm powerful. >> Oh, it's fine. >> He's like with my pigeons. >> Yeah. >> I'm powerful. >> Lenny. >> Yeah, but smart version. >> Sure, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> No, I didn't. >> No, I didn't. >> No, I didn't. >> I just didn't know. >> You're terribly lucky with gals, were you in high school? >> I did okay. >> Debra? >> Was that her name? >> Brenda. >> Brenda. >> Brenda. >> Yeah, fuck. Easy to say. >> He does his research. >> Whoa dude. >> How old were you and you and Brenda made love? >> Oh. >> I was. >> 13. >> 13. >> Okay. >> Okay, okay. You never know what ages are coming from, because he also talked about the first time he had asked it and you're like waiting for him to say the age and you're predicting it's going to be this, but it was like 13 I think as well, right? >> Yes. >> Yeah, yes. >> So 13 was a big year for you. >> Yeah, it was big. >> It was really big. >> It's grade or ninth grade? >> That would be like junior high school, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I too had sex at 13. >> You did? >> I did. >> She was 15. She does a ninth grade. She had already done sex a couple times, and so I was like, okay, she already knows what she's doing. >> Apparently, that's really young. >> Yeah, it is. >> No. >> It's uncomfortable for people. When we were kids, it would made you cool. My friends thought I was a king because of that. And I hate to admit, I love that, my buddy thought I was so cool because of that. And now as I'm older, no one likes that, it wasn't comfortable, but I did. >> You're a guy that scared really wide. >> Yeah, yeah. My little sister came walking in, and I'm fucking her best friend, which is her neighbor. And my sister's just like, top of her lungs, and just fucking, yeah, and just. >> She probably thought you were killing her. >> Blue, that yeah, it was such a bad scene, and I knew she was going to tell my parents and shit. >> Right. >> It was all bad. >> Tommy, you can't have sex with the neighbor children. >> Yeah. [LAUGHTER] >> Both parents had the talk. >> No. >> Restrictions from each other. >> Well, yeah. >> This is not enough. >> Really, each other for three weeks or something? >> That sounds right. >> Okay. >> It's like classic, kind of like a movie story, right? >> Yeah. >> Leave it to Beaver. >> Our bedrooms? >> We could see each other and be like at night, be like, oh, yeah, yeah, that was fucked up. >> Oh, sorry. >> It was fucked up, sorry. >> Yeah. I still like you. >> You're rad. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So the introversion, will we attribute it to anything, or just that was your nature. You wanted to get home. Your dad built you a little soundproof box inside the garage for you to fucking thrash around nonstop. >> Yeah. >> Your dad built a room inside the garage. That was my place. >> And you were in Marche Man 2, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Were you a show off? Were you fucking flipping the sticks around stuff? Was there a lot of page entry to it? >> I liked that part of it. That's the part where the showy, twerly things that I later brought along with me into Motley. But yeah, that was fun. I'm a drummer. I fucking loved drums, and anytime you organize a bunch of dudes all in the drum line. Man, that's some magic happens. >> Yeah. >> It's powerful, right? >> Yeah. >> That's primitive. There's something. >> Tribal. >> Tribal that happens. >> So fucking cool. Right out of high school is kind of when things blew up for me with Motley, then I quit my senior year, so that's kind of when everything. >> You had Studio 19 in what grade? That was your first man, yes, Studio 19? >> Sweet 19. >> Oh, sorry, sweet 19. >> Yeah, you know it's cool. >> He knows always shit. >> Great was that. >> Yeah, early senior year. >> And this is interesting, I think the lead singer Motley crew, Vince, went to your high school, right? >> Yeah. >> So you knew him, but how close were you? We guys friends, or you just kind of knew him perfectly? >> We were buds. Yeah. He was always playing backyard parties, and I'd go check his band out and hang in all the girls at the school, we're in love with him. >> All over him. >> Yeah. >> He always had chicks all the time. >> Yeah. >> That was cool too, of course, and hang with them because you had all these chicks. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Were you already tatted by them? >> No. >> Okay, that came later. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay. >> You need a little scratch for that. >> Or some really good homies that are like tattoo artists. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Let me know a bit. >> Yeah. >> So Sweet 19, you did play, right? You did shows and you played some sunset strip venues back then. >> Yep. >> And you met Nikki Six doing that? >> Yeah. >> I see us play, and that's where I met Nikki was at the Starwood. >> And did you guys get along instantly? What was the connection there? >> Instantly, because I had known him. I had posters of him. >> Oh, you did? >> His band with London at the time, there was really cool, kind of glam, punk band in Hollywood, and I had one of their posters up in my bedroom. So it was cool to meet him. I was like, whoa, and he had left his band and he was wanting to start something new. And he came to see you, was he coming to see you play? >> Yes. >> Where you had in shoulders above your competition at that time, at that age. >> Do you think you were pretty mature as a drummer already? >> Probably. >> Yeah. >> You can brag. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if this dude's already been in some successful bands and he's coming to scout you, he watches you and he's like, yeah, I want to be in a band with this dude. >> Yeah. >> There could be several things. We've also talked to a bunch of people with bands where they go, I just thought this dude look cool. Like, people might think, he came in, he played a great solo. We're like, this dude's got a vibe, he's so cool. So Nikki could have saw you and been like, oh, this guy's here innately as a rock. star, which is probably more the case because Nikki is pretty visual flammoyant. Yes, and maybe not so much like, oh, he's super badass drummer. Yeah, technically he's more on the aesthetic side, maybe he says, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and what did mom and dad think of this pursuit? You've dropped out of high school that couldn't have been their dream for you. Yeah. You're hanging on the sun. That's true. Not that in your teens. Yeah. How are they responding to that? They were hating it when I told them I was going to quit school. My senior year, I think I got like three months to go. And I'm like, I got a bail. We got a recording contract. You guys already had all that before you were out of high school. Molly crew already had a recording contract. Not a recording contract yet, but we had a manager and we're. You're about to handle your first album. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is 1980. Yeah. Oh, this is so exciting. You know, 17 or something. You're 17. Yeah. Oh my God. That's too young to become a rocks. He's already been having sex for four years. Oh, yeah. He's okay. I think Molly crew came on my radar in junior high, like 86, right? Even when I'm researching you, I'm like, dude, yeah, 1980s early for that band. Yeah. It's so 80s, the band. But in 1980, it's a pretty forward progressive band because we're coming out of like yet rocky time and a little confusion in rock and roll. We don't really know where we're going yet, right? It's a precarious time for rock. Yeah, it was a while. We were a time like the knack was huge. Remember my. Yeah. Yeah. That was fucking massive. So how quickly do you guys? Well, first of all, so Nikki kind of scouts you, you guys decide, let's form this band. Next comes Mick Mars. Yep. And then you're the one who says, I know Vince. He is all the girls back in my high school. We should give him a shot. Yeah. So when you called him, was he like, I'm straight? I already have my thing. Oh, I earned out. Or was he anxious to join this band? At first, he made it seem like he's like, oh, yeah, fuck yeah, bro. I'm like, dude, you got to come down. We got the singer right now. But he sucks. You got to come audition come, you know, give it a rip. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he didn't show up. Oh, great. Yeah. So he eventually did. And Vince is our guy, man. This is like the lore of a lot of these bands. I don't know. Did you watch the Blood Zeppelin doc that came out last year? Yeah, yeah. Were you not shocked with that first recorded performance of theirs in black and white? They have been a band for like six weeks. And they play as good as Blood Zeppelin ever played insane. I know. It's impossible. I know. You're like, how could these guys have this synergy after six weeks of playing together? Yeah. But you guys kind of hit that same magic, right? It worked immediately. Immediately from the second Nikki and I got together. He had written a bunch of these songs with the anticipation of starting a new band, right? And he's playing him for me on acoustic guitar. And I'm sitting in a situation kind of like this. And I just started playing drums on the table. And we vibed immediately. And it just almost erupted. It was like, this is meant to be we got to find a fucking guitar player. We got to get a singer. That's really where it all started with an acoustic guitar. A bunch of fucking alcohol. Some hands on the table. We were off. That was it. Yes. So if we chart your using, I know you've experimented with acid at 13. Where are we at here? Senior year, we've dropped out. How often are we using? What are you into at that time? Then drinking mostly. Uh-huh. And couldn't really afford cocaine. Yeah. So mostly drinking. Was it immediately problematic or was it a slow? Oh, no, not at all. You had a nice ride for a while. You did it in like a gentleman for a minute. Oh, yeah. Oh, how long did that last? Fuck. That lasted till 1989. We all decided we're going needed to go to rehab or someone was going to die. You can kind of a nine year trajectory of it getting progressively more dangerous. Like till the wheels fall off dangerous. We were shooting. Right. Yeah. We got to stop this. This is fucked up. And people are eating handfuls of, they're called housey ones. Yeah. Yeah. They're like sleeping pills. We need handfuls of them. And then go out for the night. Right. Everything was upside down. We were zombies and people weren't waking up. We're like, someone's going to die soon. Yeah. So as a collective, the whole band decided, the whole band went to treatment Monica and yeah, like at different places. We can't do this alone. Guys, we got to do this together or any going to happen. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. 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I'm sure it is. I had read fleas autobiography, which is an incredible book. It's so good. I'm no historian on the chili peppers, but yeah, it's a beautiful doc in this friendship that they had right, flea and Anthony in this whole all this high school friendship where they're all outcasts. They all see each other. And then addictions is stronger, you know, yeah, it's just like beautiful, fun thing. And it's fun, fun, fun. And now people are nodding off on stage and people aren't waking up. You know, it catches everyone. And it catches everyone at different times. And I am wondering like, yeah, when you're in a band with four dudes and all of you have your own girl battle going on, but it's not the same battle. Nikki was a junkie, right? He just loved heroin. Yeah. That's probably the harder one to manage in the group if someone's smacked out. Yeah. And are you guys expressing concern for one another? Or are you just like, I'm not going to fuck with you so that you don't ask me about what's going on. That's a weird time when you're all wanting to look out for each other, but you're also your addicts. I can't sit here and beat you up over the dumb shit that I'm doing too. Were there any adults in the room? Were parents like, hey, we think things are getting a little out of control here. At this point, way beyond parents, like security guards, but people that work with the management, people are like, dude, you guys, it's time to wrap this up. I would imagine it's tough to when the persona of it is working so much. Yeah. And you know that's part of the appeal of this band. Of course. Fucking Motley crew. We're supposed to be animals. Yeah. We're delivering. How much are we in on the joke and how much are we not in on the joke? Yeah, for sure. Right. Do totally. Are we putting on a show for them? Are we getting played? Are we playing ourselves? Yeah, man. Yeah, you look back at all that stuff. You think about all the times that you were that persona after the show. A bunch of people coming backstage and shit. And if you're not that guy ripping out of a bottle of Jack Daniels and got a party going on and fucking everything all crazy, they come back to your after party and go, this fucking rules. You're selling the dream of it. Yeah. You can't keep that up. It's a performance, right? Yeah. It's just never stopped. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I noticed that once you get sober and people come back and see you drink in a bottle of water, they're like, what's this? Yeah. Yeah. That's scary. Let's get out of here. It's a success. Yeah. In other words, you're just hanging on. Literally. Yeah. You have this heartbreaking, I find it heartbreaking statement where you said, "I've been around the world a hundred times and I've seen nothing." Oh, yeah. It's a weird one. Think about it. It is. Yeah. You've gone around the world that many times and you've seen the hotel and the hotel and the arena, an airplane, a tour bus, and that's it. Okay, on to the next. It's lonely. It's a trip. I wouldn't even know how to correct for it, the gap in what we've experienced in what you've experienced. But even in our tiny experience where we do live shows and there's three or five thousand people, it's so thrilling and exciting. And then you go back to your hotel room and you're sitting and then you're like, what happened? All these people love me like one second ago and now I'm completely lonely. And I don't know what to do. It's in your room. Yeah, you're experiencing like these two enormous highs and lows within 30 minutes of each other. Yeah. Well, that's why you just stay high. You just don't get to the low. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's party time. Yeah. It's party time. And depending on how late that goes, sometimes it's into the next day and you know the drill. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck it. Let's go. But I think this would shock people. It's like your preference in most of the time. You left stage and it wasn't about a girl. It was let's get coke and let's go back to my room and let's be by myself. Yeah. Like the isolation. So like, yeah, what was the gap between were you having this sense of like, well, I know how this life's supposed to feel because I dreamt of it and I know how people think it feels, but it's not how it feels. Were you having those big gaps in like what everyone thought you should be feeling versus what you were feeling during the height of that? Oh, dude, full-on band therapist. We'd all get together and talk about how everybody's dealing with this new arrangement. Yes, new life, right? Rockstar. Yeah, the ultimate. Literally. I mean, you're the thing that all the little kids want to be. Yeah, and interesting, that opens up a whole other thing. Once you start getting into therapy with the people that you work with and that are also going through the same thing, you're learning all these other things about them and all of a sudden it's becoming really complicated at the same time. Yeah. Like what were you learning? You learned a bunch of things about each other that you didn't really know that nobody talked about because Nikki had a pretty rough childhood. Yep. So you're like, that's coming out. Yeah, you learn about everybody's stuff there because we wouldn't sit around and talk about personal things. Yeah. To busy fucking party. Yeah. You really get to know people, all that gets pulled away a bit. And what would happen like interpersonally in a group like that? Did you always have your bestie in the band or would it ping pong? Were there periods where you were closer to this person or closer to that person? Was there like ebb and flow and how people paired off? Yeah, it would move around, but I guess Vince and I would pile up mostly. Mick was quite a full on recluse like he would sit in his room, windows closed with his guitar laying in bed. He would never come out. And he was primarily drinking, right? Drinking and glow. Yeah. Okay. Right. And Nikki, he would stay to himself a lot. We'd go out of nights, but Vince would always, well, let's go down to the pool at the hotel. And then, you know, we'd start hatred drinking and we would usually be hanging. You guys had the constitution to keep it public. Keep it out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So now this is a funny personal story. So you guys did, you all go to treatment. I will mention all the albums do great, right? There's four before Dr. feel good. And you guys are fucked up during all those. They're all great. Shout out to the devil's five million copies, theater pains, two times platinum. Girls, girls, girls, four times platinum. So it's all a huge, but you guys all go to rehab in 89. And then you come out and you do Dr. feel good. Yeah. And that's by far regarded critically. It's the most love. It's sold the most albums. Yeah. You guys did your best work. I don't know how silver everyone was, but full on. Full on. And did that shock you? Do you start thinking you needed to be fucked up to do what you guys did? Was it a shocker that you guys got together and worked that well sober together? Yeah. It actually really was. I think between that and between a brilliant idea from our producer at the time was let's get these guys the fuck out of Los Angeles first of all. I don't want any distractions. These guys are finally clear headed. Yeah. Let's get them away from LA. We go up to Vancouver and it just reigns every day there. And so all as we did was wake up, go to the studio again on a coffee. Yeah. Exactly. And then go work, go record and write and do the process. There was no like, oh, it's beautiful out today. It was work and just focus. I hate calm. It's work. That's wrong. Between being sober and Bob getting us the fuck out of LA to go focus on what we were there to do was genius. I don't know if we would have done that in LA. Yeah. Right. We would have come up with that kind of work. And at this point, you guys have been together for nine years and you're all young dudes. It's almost a miracle you're still together at that point. I don't feel good. I pinch myself all the time. Yeah. I mean, how did that happen so many times that could have unraveled? Okay. Now here's a fun personal experience. So when I in 1992, 91, I worked for General Motors. In General Motors got called by MTV movie and said we want to do a celebrity race at the Denver Grand Prix. You guys build a bunch of geostorms. Well, I worked at the race shop that built those geostorms. So I went to the Denver Grand Prix in like 91 when I was 16 and you raced in that. Yes. I was just going to say. No way. You raced in it. Vince raced in it. Yes. One of the bald ones and then Sebastian Bach. Oh my god. And I was 16, right? And I think of you anytime I have an interaction with a dude that's terrible, I think, well, you deserve this from your Tommy Lee interaction. So I was like 16. This is great. I get to kind of formally making amends for this. So with my uncle, he's like 10 years older than me. We're kind of milling about in this little tent where you guys are at and we're there to fucking handle the cars. And I start chatting to you. And this is what I said. I go, yeah, I'm not really into Molly crew, but I'm so in love with your wife Heather Locklear. Oh my god. I know. Oh no. That's so bad. My uncle loved it, right? And I was like, I was a legend for fucking two days because I said this thing. And now I think every time a dude comes up to me, he's like, I don't really know you, but my wife thinks you're whatever. I'm like, yeah, I deserve that. Because when I said to Tommy Lee or someone comes up, I'm like, I don't care for your ship, but I love your wife. Yeah, I deserve that. Oh my god. Oh, man. Would you remember how he reacted? Totally cool. He's like, he's talking to 16 year old. He's like, oh, yeah, you know, he's just nice. Give me the fuck to move on that. Yeah, you're the first famous person I ever met because I was, you know, 16 and from Detroit. Wow. And then there was this crazy moment of working on those cars. Yeah, yeah, I worked for this company sports fab who had built those cars. Oh, oh, okay. What a trip. Total trip. The world is this big, bro. And I swear to God. So I want to apologize for such an obnoxious way to say hi to you. 34, 5, 35 years ago. I would never get a chance to say that. Oh, that's awesome. So how long did that period, that stretch where everyone went to treat me? How long did that one stretch last for you? And what did you find when you were sober? Like, did your life get way better? It got way better. And then once again, maybe this is where it all started. The first time getting sober, remember? And the whole band's doing this thing. The fucking last night of the tour, my boy Vince, last night of the tour, we played Hawaii. We finished in Hawaii. It was fucking rad. After the show, we go over to the strip club. Vince and I head over there. The girls are walking around with the big fucking round trays with the test tubes and shit loads of shots. Everything you could. Cornucopia. That's the last night of tour. We're done. We just look at each other and we go. And he's like, yeah, the girl, bring all of it. And we just fucking started just pick up right where you left off, right? Right where we left off. Just going fucking bananas. Got shitty. The next day, I couldn't live with the fucking guilt. Pretty much just let our other two boys down broke this pack. Yeah, fuck, but I got to say I'm sorry. And so the whole band's in a room. As I guys, I fucked up last night. Vince and I went to the strip club and the drink lady came by and it was on colorful. And the last night of the tour, I lost it. I'm sorry. Yeah. And I'm sitting there and I'm waiting for Vince to go, yeah, dude, we did it. And the motherfucker doesn't say a word. Just you. Oh, no. I'm looking at him like. He never said a fucking word. How did they take it? The other guys. They were bombed. Yeah. You also among annex, you're like, yeah, that's what we do. You're not that shocked ever. Yeah, it's the end of the tour. You're in the right place at the wrong time. The other thing I think about that would have been stressful for me. You're much sweeter, I think, than you percent. It's even the fact that you had to admit that. Yeah, I know. It was nice. It says a lot about your spirit. And I'll see you're the dude who went and wanted to be alone in his garage and play his drums. I was on a show called punk, right? And when I was on that show, the kind of dudes that would stop me were so aggro. They're like, bro, fucking punk. You know, it was like, it was so much. They'd squeal to a stop at a stoplight. It'd be screaming at me. And I'm like, this isn't my group. I'm not into this kind of attention. Were you a bit in a prison? Like, you represented this thing that was permission to rage and get out all your teenage fucking mail everything. Yeah. You had to interact all the time with a lot of dudes that were fucking aggro. Was that hard to have that fan base? Not that you weren't grateful for them, but just when you've rather been approached by the ball arenas, you're like, I saw you dance at Kennedy Center and while you're beautiful. Exactly. Yeah, but you got all the fuck yeah, bro. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No motions, no feelings. We're never going to talk about anything that hurts us. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. I love those type of people. But yes, it's also kind of like, oh boy, this is it. Yeah, these guys want me to go bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. One thing I got, I think Monica would really love to know about this. I certainly did that you had a little spell where you were a jiggle. Oh, yeah, you do want to know about this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your mail escort her minute for a minute. Yeah. Nikki and I both work. You both work. - Is this in the beginning before the band blew up? - Very beginning when we had all moved into an apartment together and then we meet this lady who's the madame. - How old was she? You see a lot older than you guys? - Yeah, she was a few years older than us and that's where we met and then started talking. She's like, I got work for you guys and dude, this was at a time where we're all living together and we literally, our manager would give us $20 a week. - To live on, each guy got $20 a week. We saw some big numbers and we were like, okay, fuck it, let's do it. How many dates you think you went on? - Probably nine or 10. - And he said they were often older ladies who just wanted some companionship. - Yes. - And then sometimes they wanted more. - Yes, sometimes. - Sometimes they didn't want more. Sometimes they just wanted to hang out. - Sometimes going just sit and have dinner with them. - Really? - And that's it, just dinner. - Literally, just wanted company just to go in with. - Yeah, and then sometimes they're like, I'd like you to come over. - Yeah, and then do that. - Yeah, that would happen. - Were you able to compartmentalize? If you're just going and having these dates and sometimes having sex with them, you just like put that out of your mind. I think if you're a jiggle, you have to do that, right? You have to like compartmentalize. - Lights down low. - Mm-hmm. - Lights down. - Really low. - Is spring the lights down. - Sometimes. - But you know what, I think I was lucky too because a couple of like the older women that I got, they were actually really fun. - Yeah, exactly. - Like you're fucking wild ass lady. Well, for some, you know, older lady to be higher in the fucking. - Exactly. That's already as someone open to some stuff. - She's got to be pretty open while we wait. And so a couple of them, I was fortunate enough to have some good time. - Yeah, yeah, I believe that for sure. - But the lights down low. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughing) - How much money did you make? - Oh, I'd get 500 bucks. - Oh, nice, okay. - 500 bucks. - Yeah, compared to your 20. - 1980? - Yeah, I know, okay. - That's like, 15 to 102 grand. - Dude, total. - Yeah. - If you were living in 20 bucks a week, yeah, you'd just 50 acts to 20 bucks a week. You got 500 bucks for a couple hours. You're going to guilt turners and stocking up on some liquor. (laughing) - Okay, how many times did the band break up and get back together? - I left in 2000. So it's been a couple of times. And then in 2016, we had decided, you know what, let's go out on a high note, you're let it rip and not run this thing into the ground and then all of a sudden we're playing like county fairers and not so rare at games. - Let me get sad. - You know, rather than burn it out, we're like, let's just cut it into 2016, we kind of officially. I don't understand the motivation to do this. Like bands do this all the time. And it's like, why even declare who knows? Maybe you'll fucking want to do it again in four years and maybe you won't. - I know. We didn't want to be one of those. We're like, we don't deserve to kind of fucking fade out. Let's take this fucking thing out at the top and then bail. The last thing we wanted to ever do was be another one of those bands that like, oh, they got back together. - You right. - We're united for another. - They're playing at a tractor pole. - Yeah, we were just like, no, let's make official and we signed this whole thing. - You're never allowed to perform as the band outside of the band, right? - Yes. - Yeah. - That was cool. I think that's right. - Yeah. - But I think you guys might have missed assessed your future. - Yeah. - There's no reason you're not Metallica. - Yeah, right. - There's no reason you're gonna dwindle into the county fair. - Yeah, I don't know. There was some weird fear we had. And I think we all in general did wanna go out on high note. - Like honor the band in a way. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You don't wanna overstay. You're welcome a little bit. - Yes, thank you. - I get it. It's like ending a show after four seasons. You could keep doing it, but it's like, no, it's done now. It's good to be done here where it's still good. - I mean, I agree with that, but then also like, I'm going to see Metallica in October at the sphere. I can't fucking wait. Rolling stone still play. It's like 20 of examples. - Yeah. - Okay, so you and Theo talked about this, and I want you to talk about how you can get kind of lost in a purgatory if you're a musician, or anyone that does live performances. Theo related, but of course, you made a great point. It's like, unlike a standup, a standup, you go do standup on the weekends. And maybe you do one show in the week, but you're coming home now and stop. - Yeah. - And you're like, when you go out on tour, you leave your house, and you're not back for two years. - Yeah. - That's a wild experience, I think, mentally. - Yeah. - And then you guys were both relating to this feeling of like being on the road and desperately wanting to be home, and then once you're home for five minutes. - The grass, the wood, the wood, the greener, right? - Yes. - How do you come to peace with that weird tension? And does it like come just fuck you up permanently? - I still wrestle with that one. If you're home too long, you're like, "Fuck, I gotta get out there and rock shit." And then if you're out there too long, you're like, "I would fucking shoot my mom right in the back to sleep in my whole bed." - Yeah. - And is there no option to design these things? - In a possible balance. - Why can't you design these tours where you do go home once a month for a week or something? - We're doing that now, isn't it? - But you are, that's how you're touring now. - Yeah, this summer we're going out for, I think, three months, and that's it. - Okay, you started in July. How much did you bring your boys on the road? - I'd bring them out any chance I could, 'cause you miss a lot of shit. - How old are they now? - My oldest son is gonna be 30 in a couple days. - Wow. - No shit. - Yeah, and my youngest is a year younger. They're all grown up. - Yeah. - Well grown up. - And did you have anxiety watching them grow up? Like, oh, when is the addiction thing gonna catch him? - No, it's crazy, because I never thought that. My one son is sober. - Oh, that's cool. - Yeah, he ran it like crazy. I don't know, do you think that stuff is-- - Right, Atari? - Yeah. - The sane we love is, like, genetics loads the gun and trauma pulls the trigger. - I believe that. - Okay. - I also believe you could just be exposed to it and pick it up. - Yeah, I'm not sure what-- - Yeah, like, do you think of your childhood as being traumatic? - No, not at all. - And is addiction in your family at all? - No, it's not. - Yeah. - Okay, so you kinda, yeah, you just can't do it naturally. - I hope it's not my fucking fault. So no, I never really thought about that too much until it happened and then I went, uh oh, fuck. What is this? - There's so many moments in our pop culture that are defined by you at different moments. - Sure, sure. - Or just like, you took over pop culture. What do you think you lost and what did you gain by this really heightened experience? - Privacy? Lost? - We interviewed Pamela a couple years ago. - Yeah, her explaining like the tension living in Malibu with the photographers and everything that happened was just being documented sounds. - She spoke quite highly of you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - She, like, the connection you guys will always have. - Yeah, totally. - Yeah, we loved talking to her. - Yeah, she's great. - But it did not sound fun. - No, dude, it was not. - Not cool. That was a weird time. - It's hard enough to be wrestling with you when I have wrestled anonymously. - That's already would be hard enough, but then also you add in this other element of the public. - Fuck. - Do you think on any level you sought out the attention? - No. - You don't think so, okay. - No, I don't know. - You had enough. - Yeah. - Found you. - Yeah. - Yeah, I call it a shit magnet. - Oh, yeah. - Yeah. (laughing) - In 2001, the autobiography of the band put out came out. - Yeah. - That was huge. They made a movie out of it. I love hearing this. You love the movie. - Love it. - That makes me so happy. - Yeah. It's rare. We've all seen some pretty shitty rock kind of dock movies. - Yeah. - Especially when your brand is cool. - Right. Depicting it's horror. - It's more dangerous. - Firm only crew to participate in a show and it's soft, but can be rough. (laughing) - You wrote your own biography in O5, Tommy Leon. And what was it you were wanting to be known about you that wasn't known from the dirt? - Just more personal rather than not about the band more what was going on in my life than there was a lot to talk about and a lot to not get my side of anything out. Just the truth. - Right, you're experiencing through all of this. - Right, yes. - Did you watch the man on the run documentary? - The Paul McCarty one. - Yes. - Amazing. - I just watched it. - Jesus, dude. - I'm wondering if you had this feeling like I never took a minute to imagine what it's like to leave the Beatles at 27. I was just like, oh yeah, the dude's in the Beatles. He was happy. I was like, no, he was 27. - 27. - He had his whole life ahead of him. He still wants to be a musician. - Yeah. - And he lives under this fucking shadow. He's the one guy who can say like, I'm not ever going to top this thing. He can probably say that definitively. And yet he found a way to do it. - Which is insane. - It's impossible. In so much failure along the way, right? Like the first two albums, no one liked. His band fucking quits when he wants to record in Nigeria. - Yeah. - And then he writes that album that becomes as big as a Beatles album. - Yes. - It's almost impossible, right? That he was able to do it again? - Yeah. That is insane. - Yeah, were you relating when you were watching that? - Yeah. - And we're like, yes, dude. Same. Leave Wantley Crew. the age is what freaked me out because I didn't realize that's what freaks you out because I know what I was doing at 27, I wasn't coming off the Beatles. Right. Yes. So tell me when you started doing solo work or when you did method of mayhem or any of these projects you've done post Motley crew. Yeah. How much of that do you feel the weight of that? Like, oh, God, everything will be measured against Motley crew. Yeah. There is that. But you know what? I don't really focus on that. What I enjoy the most is I call it, you know, my adult sandbox. It's like I get to do creatively whatever I want to do. That is the fun part and that's my main focus and objective is for that kind of work outside of Motley is I can do whatever I want to do. This is such an exploration. You know what I mean? Like, God, dude, anything goes. I don't have somebody going like, oh, it doesn't sound like Motley. This is where I really get to wield my creativity. Yeah. You got into DJing for a while, you're kind of like into electronic stuff, you're into really everything. I've always been that way, man, super eclectic into everything, everything but country music. That's my only thing that I dislike. I don't know why, but I can't, when I think of country music, I just cannot stop. The song comes into my mind and I don't know why. Maybe that's part of the reason I fucking don't really like it. I put another log on fire, check up me up some bacon and some beans, so my socks and wash my old blue jeans. You sound good singing it. I put another log on fire and I always nice to your kid sister. Don't I take her drive in every night? Oh, sure. That's not the song that's going to get you into country for sure. And my buddies have tried, you need to go to stage coach, it's nothing but chicks. I'm good. I'm good. I'm not. We're post chick phase of our life. I mean, I got to bring this up just because I almost fought him too. You got in this fight with Kid Rock. Did you guys punch each other? No, that's the fucking craziest thing is nobody got at each other. Okay. There was people on us so quick, pulling us apart, but there's a couple swings in the miss. And then we were okay, so it's not even a fight. No, yeah, not at all. Like people like, oh, yeah, fucking, fucking punch Tommy Lee. Duty never touched me. Like it never happened. Yeah. I don't know what edit you saw. Yeah. What was the impetus of that? I don't even know. Do you know what? I got up to go to the bathroom. I come back from the bathroom and he's sitting in my seat. Oh, you know, like they do that, see filler shit, they go to commercial or he just saw that I left and went, I'm going to go sit in the seat and start shit. I don't know what the objective was, but I came back and he's in my seat and I'm like, bro. What are you doing? Yeah, yeah. And he's like, fuck you. That was his dog. Yeah, but it's fake. It seemed intentional. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I don't think it just was filling a seat. Yeah. Okay. So explain Tommy Rides again. You already have that album and now how do you re-attack all the same album? We're talking about re-releasing it for its 20th year anniversary and I just built a Dolby Atmos recording studio in my home and once I kind of went down that rabbit hole, I was just like, oh my god. This is the most insane thing I've ever heard in my entire life and I can never listen to stereo ever again after this. Because Atmos has sound coming from the ceiling above, above, behind, sides, rear, you're literally in the mix. You're like, are you fucking kidding me? Anyway, I'm obsessed. Yeah. And talking about re-releasing for the 20th anniversary, Tommy Land the ride and there's no Dolby Atmos mix of it. So I was like, I want to remix it and sort of re-imagine it if we're going to do it, why not? That's what we ended up doing. Are you technically quite savvy like on the board instead? Oh yeah. I'm sorry. You are. Oh. Yeah. You geek out on that. Totally. When you're making music now though, does it start with drums? Not always. Sometimes it'll be a guitar riff, a drum beat. It's usually there's some sort of melody in my head and then I'll start banging around on a keyboard just to get the melody out. It's funny because in the Tommy Land rides again, the new version that just came out, there's a new song called "Stupid World" that I put on this record. I'd written that in like, it was COVID, 2020. Yeah. I'd written that around then. So going back and finding that, I was like, it is so fucking appropriate right now because the world to me, we're in a really fucking stupid place. It's just really stupid everywhere. I wrote this around COVID. Also a stupid time. Yeah. Also a stupid time. Yeah. We're really bizarre. Yeah. Really valid the world might be. And I didn't think much of it. We write things all the time and put them away and you're onto something else in any way. So in the new studio, I was opening up some older songs and files that I'd been working on for the last few years. And I found that and I was like, oh, man, this is so fucking appropriate. And going back and finding old work is really fucking cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you dare. There have been instruments that you've fallen in love with after doing solo stuff and wanting to create your own stuff. Have you picked up other instruments that you didn't play in the 80s? No. I've always played keyboards sing. I would sing on a lot of motley demos because we couldn't get Vince to come over and sing keyboards, bass, guitar, drums, obviously. I kind of play enough of everything. So when you're on tour this year, will you be behind the drum kit on drums? The whole time. Yeah. And play pianos. Really quick. The physicality. Yeah. And you've treated your body like abs or dogs yet. Yeah. It's like shocking, you're as healthy and robust as you are. But drums, man, is a fucking hard instrument to play. Dude, it's insane. And when you see these like Gene Crouper or these old dudes who still were fucking slain at like 70, you're like, how do they have even? There's still, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy, man. It's so physical. Is it what's kept you in shape? 100%. But the time I get done after a two hour show, I'm fucking toast. Just physically and then your ears, you're just laying in bed here and just really high pitched in a little squeal. Oh, okay. We're done, right? Stop. You don't realize it. Man, I sweat like a motherfucker. I don't really like gain any size like muscle and I weigh the same. I've weighed in high school. Like, what is the fucking deal that it's having? So I clipped one of those pedometers on my shoe. I clicked it on before the show. Take it on after the show and it said 13.3 miles. Oh my god. I just did 13 miles sitting down, yeah, from the kickoff, yeah, it was all that. And I was like, okay, that explains a lot, I guess, yeah, I'm pretty much doing more than you have. Yeah. Oh, my god, do you have any repetitive injury stuff like you have wrists or shoulder? Are you held up pretty fucking good? I'm pretty good, man. I had one hand surgery because I had a, it's called dupetrends. I can never fucking pronounce it. Dupetrends contracture, okay. And it's where the nerves in your hand that you have running through here over time, they start to pull. This finger was stuck in this position and both of these. So they had to go in and cut that and get rid of it. That's the only thing that's really physically, and that's a scary one, that's my hands. Yeah, exactly. Do you ever wonder what you would look like? Had you not done anything? Because I mean, kind of think genetically, you might be at a freak. Like you might have looked 38 years old right now. Oh, have you not done drugs? Yeah, you not done anything. Maybe. Yeah. Did you look great? Oh, thanks, but yeah, I can only imagine what you would look like if you had taken the Englbert Humberdinger out. Fuck, I'm not fucking all 18. He's fucking 63. Okay, I guess that's my last question. Do you still have dreams? I'm wrestling. I'm behind you 10 years, but I still wonder how much fuel I have in the tank to be productive and engage. I just might want a bonsai tree the rest of my life. Well, kind of like goals and motivations you have, and you feel like as you're getting older, it's harder to give a shit about that stuff. I'm not sure what that is, but not that I haven't set goals in the future. I think that I have stopped projecting. For me, at least it gives me anxiety thinking about things that haven't happened or could happen or this. I feel like these days I'm living really for the fucking moment we are right here right now. Like, they'll, that's a big change. I used to do a lot of that to look forward and I think right now these days for me, I'm really comfortable with just looking right here. Do you think it helps that you've had all the dream outcomes in the dream? Dream outcomes didn't really feel as good as anticipated. So you're like, oh, maybe it's actually not about the outcome, it's just about how much I enjoy it and root to the outcome. >> That's a pretty deep one, dude, because I remember a little kid jumping up and down on my fucking bed playing air guitar and playing cardboard boxes and going like, I'm going to be like, I'm going to fucking do this, knowing that, you know, so it's weird, like sometimes you do have those projections and other times you just so pumped just to fucking be here. >> Are you proud of yourself when you think about that little boy? Like you did do it? >> Fuck yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> That's so cool. >> The one thing, my poor fucking parents, all I can say, a drummer constantly making fucking noise. And then when he finally leaves the house, you're like, oh, my God, is he going to live through this? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Exactly. >> Then your mom won't thumb. >> Yeah. >> Why are you doing so much? >> Yeah. >> There's all the time. >> Yeah. >> Brutal, I do have a question. Has there been jealousy in the band? Was there jealousy amongst the members? Like did anything get crazy? No, not really. Really? >> I don't think so. >> That's surprising. >> He's in a tricky position to evaluate that because as a drummer, weirdly, he and Vince were so famous that everyone had a lot of fame. >> I feel like maybe they'd be jealous of you because you're kind of the name. >> You got to ask that. >> Yeah. >> I would. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. I think you're the lasting name that's come out of that band. >> Gotcha. >> That other generations know. Yeah, right. Maybe that's a question for them. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Well, I guess I want to end on this, it's just a compliment. You have navigated so much messy business, you think? >> I mean, yeah. You're from a different era. It's back like when you were in a rock band, you slept with someone in every city. No one had phones, no one tweeted about it, no one did anything about it. >> No phones being a little bit worse. >> No pictures. You made it through that whole phase. But what I think is super telling is like, I've met a couple folks that you've shared years with. And those folks like you a lot still, that's cool. I think your sweetness has really carried you throughout a very tumultuous and what could have been many times things for playing in moments. You got to get out of here forever now. And that never really came your way. And I think it's a testament to your kind of sweetness. >> A sweetness. >> Yeah, no. You're just fucking likable, right? >> Yeah, you're very likable. >> But when you were upstairs, your wife did say that you posted your dick on Twitter. >> Yeah. >> And that happened. >> Yeah, we want to know how that happened. >> Just drunk. >> Okay, just drunk. >> I saw people missed it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, because I do recall earlier, I said, do you think sometimes you draw the attention? And then, you know, I am circling back to maybe there's a kernel of that. >> Yeah. >> We might not be able to help it, I mean, it's like your rock star. >> Yeah. >> It's your identity. >> Kind of expected, maybe I don't know. >> I've had all the addictions, but sex and love addiction, for sure, 10 out of 10 for me. And really, once I got into therapy like six years ago, really understanding, no, the first drug was this eighth-grade girl liked me, who was the most popular girl in the school. And I've never been higher in my life than her asking me out. Just that was fucking unbelievable. >> Do you feel like you've had that addiction? >> Oh. >> Is that the first drug? >> Girl's approval. >> Yeah. >> There was a girl in my school, in high school, the hottest chick in the whole school, stunning, beautiful. I would just be like, I wonder if that's even possible. >> Yeah. >> No, I can't ask. I can't. And then when that happens, yeah, it takes over your whole life, right? Like when that girl likes you, you're just fucking walking around like you are the king of everything. This thing you know, you're in your van on acid fucking the girl who you thought you could never, ever be with. And you're like, what just happened? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Whoa dude. >> And then you're just chasing that for the rest of your life. >> That kind of stuff. >> The hottest girl in the world. >> The pace. >> Yeah. Fuck. >> Which one do you think was harder to let go of? Thinking in drugs or female approval and attention? >> Drinking in drugs. >> Harder. >> Way harder. >> Way harder. >> Hard, hard. He's hard. >> Well Tommy, this has been a blast. I want everyone to check out Tommy Landrides again. Remastered with a new song that's out right now, you can listen to it everywhere. And then go see Tommy fucking play. >> Rock shit. >> Come to the two of where do people go to get tickets for the tour? >> MotleyCrew.com. >> Okay. >> It's a good place. >> Everything's there. Dates. Tickets. >> So listen to Tommy Landrides again. Go see them play this summer. It'll be memorable. You won't regret it. >> Yeah. >> This has been a blast. I'm going. I got to apologize for my behavior. It's 15 or 15. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for having me. >> Yeah. >> It was a blast. >> Yeah, a long time coming. >> Yeah, totally. >> Be well. >> Oh my God. >> It's a reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks. >> Judd Brewer. >> Judd Brewer. >> Can you even think of another Judd? >> Appetown. >> Yep. >> I'm glad we had a neurologist on neuroscientist. >> Very good timing for you and all your thoughts of neural pathways. >> That's right. >> Transmitted. >> I didn't get to ask him all the questions I wanted about. >> Your ailment. >> Yeah. >> I thought maybe that would not be productive for us, but I had questions. >> We should get an arthritis doctor on here so I can really purve out. >> So you're allowed, but I'm not. >> No, you are. I'm just saying, I'm surprised we haven't gotten an arthritis doctor that I can basically just make treat me real time in the interview. >> I know. >> Okay. So Judd, he talks about the two-body problem, which is a dilemma for life partners in academia, relating to the difficulty of both spouses obtaining jobs at the same university or within a reasonable computing distance from each other. That would be very hard. It's like acting, I guess. >> I really like the idea of professors being married for some reason. I don't know why. I don't care if machinists are married to one another or the doctors. I guess I want doctors to be married to. >> Really? >> I imagine their work is so esoteric it would take another doctor to really geek out on what they're interested in. >> Oh, interesting. I like the idea of a doctor with somebody who doesn't know anything about medicine so they can help. >> Benefit? >> Yeah, exactly. You only need one doctor in the pair. >> Well, that's John and Joya, John Favreau. He's a genius because he went out and got himself Joya, who is an emergency room doctor. I would watch them raise kids and I thought, anything can happen. They can let anything happen because Joya's here. >> I know. >> She just fix everyone right up. >> That's what I want. >> I always felt so safe knowing she's around. I didn't go into cardiac arrest, she'll handle it, anything. >> Yeah. >> It's about the best person to have around. >> We were just talking about that the other day, my friend Laura and I because we're in this group of all of our friends and we're single, although now she has a quarantine boyfriend. >> Yeah. Don't put her on blast. She might still have some lures in the water. You're making her Facebook. What's the term? >> Official. >> No, their Facebook official, she poses something the other day about him. >> Oh. >> Yeah. >> Right, right. >> But any who, generally, were the single ones. We were saying, who should we date, who's going to add something new to the group, and what are the categories? >> I'm really glad you guys are thinking that way. >> Yeah, we have to. >> We're trying to be honest. >> I think you need an ER doctor, that way I can like fuck around on these vacations and I even worry about it. >> Well, I have been saying that. I'd like a doctor in the group for sure, especially people are doing backflips and stuff off the house into the pool, yeah, yeah, yeah, we need a doctor there. And somebody said, this was on a girl's Marco Polo. Marco Polo, if you're listening, I'd love some free, I think it's trying to make me pay now. >> Oh. >> It's not letting me do two times and it's a problem. >> Well, how's that, by the way, what a great way to monetize that, because you got to go two times. >> Once you're used to going two times, going back is- >> By the way, we mean double speed. >> Yeah. >> If you use Marco Polo, it's a fantastic app, it really is phenomenal, but you'll become immediately aware of how fucking slow everyone gets their thoughts out. It's maddening. >> Yes. >> They need a quadruple speed to be honest. >> I think they do have a triple in this payment package. >> Ah, worth it. >> It probably is, I should just buy it. >> And you should buy for your birthdays around the corner, only by a year worth of fast forwarding through all your friends. >> How sweet. >> I'd be happy to buy that for you. >> Oh, should I buy that for Kristen, for her? >> I think it's like- >> Upcoming. >> Seven dollars. I don't think you need to buy that as a person. >> Nobody should be thoughtful. I'm so fucked. This birthday is not giving the back door- >> No, we're good at it. >> I thought about this idea. What do you think about this idea? >> Okay. >> We shouldn't be doing down here. >> I'll cut it. >> She doesn't listen. >> I'll cut it. >> Maybe the viewers will text us ideas. >> Okay, go on. >> They're listeners, not viewers, stacks. So here's what I thought the other day. What would you think about this? >> I'll book five bedrooms at a hotel and I'll get a babysitter. Get on the same floor of a nice hotel here in the city. Maybe the peninsula or something. >> Uh-huh. >> It'll be the Richardson's, the Hanson's U, and we'll just all wear bath robes, and we'll get room service, and we'll lay in bed, and then maybe we'll go on the pool and maybe we won't. >> Yeah. >> That sounds lovely. >> Because that's not what she would want, just to be able to lay in bed for seven hours and reader net. Do all that shit and then she could check in and out with you guys if she wanted to be social She could if she didn't right. I think that's good. Yeah. I think she wants some just peace. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that sounds wonderful I like that idea. Okay. I'm gonna pursue it a little further. Okay. All right, and I have an idea I'm scared to say it. Okay, but I'll say it maybe cuz maybe some you're right. Maybe someone could help yeah again She's not gonna hear this what if someone like he is or something in his Yeah, how about this if you're out there, don't be a fucking dick. Well, okay, she don't read her DMs So I guess I'm not worried about that. It's just if you know her if we're all friends don't fuck this up Yeah, so that when she she was in Paris over a year about a year ago and There was this chandelier that she wanted very badly It was really on the fence, but what should I get it? Should I not too expensive? She thought it was too expensive I like her and she's frugal and Is she did not end up getting it and since we've had so many conversations. She regrets it Hmm, and it was at a it's a vintage chandelier. It's gonna be a pawn shop. It's gonna be hard to track down But I'm gonna do it. Oh, you're saving the day and we're gonna get it. I I really hope it's still available. That's my I worry it got bought if you bought it If you're a listener and you bought it, can you give it to us? Because it's her birthday This is the you're the exact kind of challenge for you though. I love it. Yeah, this is your sweet spot I really want to start tracking something down sleuthing gum shwing Veronica Mars. Veronica Marsing Yeah, it would only be appropriate that Ron Mars would get something that had had to be Ron Mars for her birthday I really hope it works out. It doesn't work out She'll divorce us I guarantee I'm gonna hate it because if you're not gonna like the look of it. Yeah, I already know that I already know that she made the right decision and didn't buy it No, why I just know I can tell she buys things if no no she she wants it She has said it so many times. Okay, where's it? Where's it going? I think it should go in your bathroom When I won't like it as well to see it all, but it'll be over the tub. It'll be just look up It's beautiful. All right, I won't look up. You've seen it and you like it? I can't remember if I like it She likes it and that's all that matters Okay, he said that his dad was a deadbeat Okay, and then I kind of got interested in where that phrase came from. Oh Yeah, ooh, I didn't really find it. Oh shit. Okay, cuz I wanted to guess. Well, yeah, let's guess I think it's a newspaper term. I think it's people who got assigned beats You know, they call that in journalism like you have the science be you have the Financial be I think it's a beat that doesn't generate any stories Like you've been given this completely deadbeat Oh, and then that just ended up because newspaper writers affect our cloak wheels that it just emanated from there As if it emanated from sports You know so many of our sayings are like their sports related. Sure. Don't strike out. Right Yeah, yeah, I'm guessing I'm guessing it's coming from from the newspaper world Interesting, but how does it equate to a deadbeat parent? Well, just people probably were using though. Well, that's a deadbeat. That's a deadbeat. You know, it's something useless Oh, and then it just got transferred to deadbeat parents deadbeat thing That or the only other thing I can think of that has beats Well, there's two walk. I got two more There's beats and cop controls you have different beats you could have a deadbeat like there's nothing going on So similar similar yeah, and then I guess you could say musically like that's a deadbeat It doesn't add anything to song. I'm going with the newspaper guests. I like the newspaper guests when I hear deadbeat Just the sound of it. I hear like physical abuse. Oh no deadbeat dad doesn't mean that no, I know that yeah Yeah, yeah, I know it doesn't mean that at all. You're absent Exactly. Yeah, but when I hear the words dead and beat. Uh-huh sounds to me like violent and somebody was beaten to death Well, then you write that would be um, let's see. So deadbeat it would be beat dead. That's the phrase you're afraid of This is a person was beat dead. Well sure. I don't like that. I don't like that. Yeah, let me flip it Okay, the legal definition defines deadbeat parents as pan Yeah, I like that it's parents. It's not really fair for us to say deadbeat dad even though that's fair. Okay It's honor present fair Well in his case it was that and yeah, yeah Okay, the legal definition defines deadbeat parents as parents of either gender who have freely chosen not to be supportive parents or who do not pay their child support obligations However, the label has become so generalized that the freely chosen aspect is too often forgotten Most of the fathers lumped in as deadbeat dads are not dads unwilling to support their children They are simply unable to afford the child support Yeah when 66% of all child support not paid by fathers is due to an inability to come up with the money Calling all the dads who miss payments deadbeat is painting with far too broad of a brush Mm-hmm interesting. Uh, my father never paid child support So he was any drove a quarter any had a lot of money so he was technically a deadbeat dad I hate to say that I'll love but it is the truth That's where a lot of my irons stands. That's the thing. I can't make peace with he was lovely He was sweet to me And then he was also he didn't have a lot of blood. Yeah, he did. He loved me But it's hard for me to reconcile the fact that he didn't fucking pay child support Is it cuz he was always on the verge of not having any money? He just spent it all on himself always as a rule of thumb if he had written a book on finance It would have been spend a hundred and seventy percent of what you make that was his So there were periods of his life where he actually made a ton of money Like I think he made almost a million dollars a year in Michigan and like 98 But he went and immediately bought a million other house a jaguar to Harley's blah blah blah. He spent More than he had this gangster apartment in Chicago overlooking the river How's it enough before us to pay that's what my mother never took him to court That's what would have happened she could have taken him to court for not paying child support She could have reported him right and she just never did Okay, so well speaking of in the 80s how many single moms? Okay, by 1980 the number of single-parent families stood at 5.9 million Which represented an increase of 71% during the 70s The rate of increase slowed significantly during the 80s although the number of one-parent families continued to increase Well, my parents got divorced in 1978. Oh, so they were part of this group. Mm-hmm. I was still one of very few Think we were the only family on our block really it had a single parent. Yeah, it's so amazing how it's I mean But it was really segregated economically. So Axford acres was pretty nice It was like middle class and everyone was married But then all my friends who I like hanging out with the poor kids from Les Algardons and all these different mobile home parks All those people's parents were divorced. Well, it makes sense right if you only have one income coming in you're most likely gonna have less money That's true and I think there's other factors, but yeah, yeah, I think the alcoholism rate is higher I think the domestic disturbance you know, there's a lot of things Inextricably married to low income that's unfortunate right, but it's all connected right maybe like if you're by yourself You're raising three kids that's maybe a little miserable and you know, I mean and you don't have you have one job You don't have very much money like maybe you're more willing to drink and then it's a spiral But I have to imagine there's a really high correlation between low income and unwanted pregnancies I don't I don't think rich kids have nearly as many unwanted babies. Yeah, well exactly. Yeah, so That all feeds into itself Well, and again like health care like rich kids get on birth control or Have abortions and there was just yesterday this supreme court the Louisiana abortion case There's a bunch of horse shit these trap laws where they say like you have to have The one of them was the the hallways had to be long and are wide enough to support two hospital beds passing each other at speed Like something that would never happen at a any place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and this one specifically was There had to be Another type of hospital within some range of the clinic in case something went wrong Yeah, and then I also think maybe that those doctors also had to be Resident doctors at other hospitals, which is just insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it was another positive supreme court ruling There's been yes at Roberts Yeah, voted and his real allegiance, which is very admirable is precedent. That's his yeah, it's like he won't let his opinion override precedent Like he was basically deciding no, we've decided this case. It was Roe v Wade Right. Well, this is in opposition to Roe v Wade There was a case in Texas. I think that was specific that was very it was this exact thing. Oh, okay. I think Roe v Wade is still like quote on the shopping block. Yeah, which oh my god. Yeah, anyway, so so that was good But you know It's just you see how it all ties together, right? So if if the clinic can't be in a rural area Then people who are in poor areas can't get abortions and then it's just this cycle. Yeah, it's all part of the same Conversation we're having over and over again, where especially like black people are again, in these positions, they can't get out of. So this was good. This was a good news for the Supreme Court. - Well, as that system's guy told us, whatever result you're seeing is a perfectly design system to create that result. So if you don't like the result, you can just wish the results are different. The system is creating them perfectly. - Yeah, the meme that has been going around is, the system is not broken, it was built this way. - Right, right, right, right, right, yeah, yeah. It works perfectly. - Yeah, to get the result that we're getting. - Oh, yes, you talked about the 60 minutes food chemist and I read this article and it is, yeah, they just actively make an addiction. - Yeah, and I'm gonna say, I'm not, I would say, I'm not as kuku about food is, I think a lot of my friends are. - Yeah. - I'm not like, you were vegan for a bit, you've done no sugar. - I'm trying things to feel good for sure. - I guess just what I'm saying is, it's not my cause per say. I'm not someone who's anti-GMO and all these different things. But when I saw that, I did think, like I guess, let me back up. If people want to fucking eat McDonald's, go get 'em. I guess that's what I'm saying. I have friends that probably want to make that illegal. - Right, right. - So I'm like, go get 'em, get fat, die, whatever. I'm a, you know, that part of me is a liberty. - Don't die. - No, but don't die, but you know, but this is your right too. With that said, I'm watching that, it's not unlike the technology in our apps, where I was watching that and I realized, we are defenseless. There are people that are much smarter than us and have a much better plan to trick your body that anyone would be powerless over. If they make the taste disappear immediately, so I mean, you can't compete with that. - No. - And then I was like, how can an individual compete with billions of dollars being spent to make you do this? - And that's where we get into this huge ethical question and it correlates currently to masks, right? Yes, everyone technically has the right to die, to kill themselves. But you do not have the right to kill somebody else. - Yeah, it's true, it's true. Again, and I just want to be on record is saying, look, I am way further on the right side of the spectrum, how about Corona, then all my friends? I've been wrong several times already, which I've admitted to, but I still am like, there ain't no stop in it. Unless the hospitals are overrun, let's just get this thing going. Protect the old people, old people. It's on you. - The hospitals are starting to get really crazy here. They just sent out like a big reaction. - They're getting worse, they're getting worse. Yeah, you know, part of me, and again, the libertarian part of me is like, you know, old people are drastically outpacing the rest of the population for dying of this. And I'm sorry, I lost my last grandparent recently, but I love my grandparents. It's on them to protect themselves. I'm sorry, part of me is like, you're the one that's at high risk, so you got to have your shit buttoned up. You got to not interact with people without masks. You got to, let me just say. - Okay. - That's, I'm just telling you my position, but I still have to do the right thing ethically, even though I feel that way emotionally about it, I have to do the safest thing possible. - Yeah. - I have to do everything I can because some of those old people aren't gonna do it. And they're stubborn, and they have this and that, another reason, and I should be benevolent enough to help. And I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna go against what my instinct is to do. And there's no arguing that if both people have masks on, you're in the single-digit percentage of transmission. - Exactly. - So as opposed to 70%. - I guess here's my thing. It's like, oh God, I always use this. No wonder they hate me. If you're diabetic and you don't have insulin on you, and you can't eat a bunch of carbs right now, it's not my job to fucking take all the carbs out of the restaurant or not eat carbs in front of you. It's your job to monitor your blood sugar. - So if you are susceptible to this disease, you gotta protect yourself, that's not my job. - But older people generally are the ones that need a little more help, right? So if I need to help my grandma, if I'm the one in charge of taking care of her, and I have to go to the grocery store to buy us groceries, and no one there is wearing a mask, and now I am totally susceptible, and I bring that to them, they're being careful. That's the best case scenario, but I could bring it to them. - But again, and not to be a dick, but you know, you shouldn't hang with your grandparents until there's a vaccine in them. - But what if they can't feed themselves? - Oh, well then you can drop shit off at their door. I mean, you don't have to interact with them. - But older people need more help. They just need more help. Like my mom's sister is living with my grandparents right now, and that needs to happen. That's not like she just wants to, that needs to happen. And so if my aunt gets it, yes, she'll probably be fine, but they will not be fine. And it's not a choice for a lot of people, and a lot of people live, you know, we're privileged. We can be distant and we can do that. A lot of people don't have that luxury. They're a big family living in one house, and you can't separate, you know? So it is up to us to have some social responsibility to help the people who are not in the positions we're in. - Yeah, you know, my friend has it right now. I told you this whole story. - No. - We were supposed to go off-roading. - Uh-huh. - So my friend is a music producer, and he and I were supposed to go off-roading, and it was all set, and then he called me the day before, and he's like, "I'm so sorry, but I have to fly to Miami." Some big hip-hop artists wanted him to come record the next morning. So he went and he was there for a few days, and then he came back, and when he got back, he goes, "Yo, they do not give a fuck about corona down there." - Yeah. - No one had blank blah, blah, blah, blah, and then he got it while he's there. So he has it right now, and I've been checking in with him to see how's he, he's like, "It's good, my breathing hasn't been affected, which is good." But he said, "So the day before, he was so fucked up that his wife was talking to him, and he couldn't." He's like, "I thought she was speaking another language." And I was like, "Oh my God, I'm going downhill." Went to bed, woke up the next morning and was like, "Oh, it passed, I feel back to normal." He's excited. His wife makes him his favorite meal, pork chops with his mushroom gravy, and he goes, "Honey, you changed the recipe?" - No. - And she's like, "No." He's like, "Yeah, you did. What would you do different?" She's like, "Honey, I didn't do anything different." He's like, "Oh my God." - It tastes different. - He can't taste anything. He's like, "Bring me a strawberry." She brought him a strawberry. He's nothing. He has no smell in no taste as of yesterday. Now, hopefully that'll return. - See? - Well, that's breakeed. We don't know all the things yet. I'm sure it'll return, he'll be fine, but that's scary. I hope he feels better. Well, anyway, it's important to have social responsibility. - Well, again, the whole reason I laid out my whole thing is I'm telling you what I would want to do. But I am saying, there is a time for individual rights, and there is a time to get over that. - Yeah. - You know? - Yeah. - It's gonna be a year out of your life. - Yeah. - It's gonna be a fucking year of your life, of 80 years, hopefully. - Yeah. - That you had to wear a mask when you left house. - Exactly. - At the risk of getting into a fight with you, which we're gonna avoid. But I also, you do have to weigh the economy. You have to weigh what percentage of GDP drop will result in which amount of death. And then compare that potential collateral death against what the deaths would have been from corona. That you just responsibly, you have to think of that. If the cure is worse than the disease, if we end up killing people because people aren't getting screen for cancer and they're not getting their vaccines on time and all these other things, if that number ends up being worse than corona, then logic would tell us we gotta just eat corona and not, 'cause it'll be a net, smaller death. Okay. With all that said, even if that was true, you wearing your mask to places has no impact on any of that. - Yeah. - You know, it just doesn't. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, again, it's a little more complicated than that. It's like it's disproportionately affecting one community and if we just let those people die, that's not okay. - You're speaking of the black and Latino. - Yup. - Yup. - Yeah, rich people fare better. - It's like that's true and not fair. - It's how it should be. - Ugh, yeah, yeah. - Like the guy who owned the Clippers. - Sterling. - Yeah, that don't sterling. - Oh yeah, he was a great guy. - He's a better person. - Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. (upbeat music) - Okay, the Swedish word for not too much, not too little legume. - Just the right amount. - Okay, and then we talk a little about shrooms on this podcast. And it seems apropos for me to say since we recorded this, I have tried them. - Yes, you tried them and I didn't even instigate it. - You did not even instigate it. - But I volunteered to be a part of it. - Yes, and to be a babysitter. - Yes, the sober companion. - I'm very grateful that there was a sober companion. there. It was everything you said it was going to be you were right. Say it again. I've said it a lot of times, but I'll say it again. I was wrong about corona, but I was right about mushroom. You were right. It was a lovely experience. And it was really cool to see the world in a brand new way. Yeah. It's best to take your standard world. You've seen all the time that you're familiar with and recognize how much your brain is in charge of assembling these photons in a way that you call reality. Yeah. And then all of a sudden your brain starts assembling them in a different way. Yeah. And it is a different reality. Yeah. And it cannot be experienced without that. Yeah. Maybe some meditators kind or something. But yeah. To walk down a street that you've walked down. I know. It was that was such a big takeaway for me is I just kept thinking I'm taking everything for granted. Yeah. Like this is beautiful. I walk down this street every not, you know, a lot. And and I'm missing it. I'm missing it every time. What I think what happens like the best way to explain it. And we've had a lot of experts on here talk about how your brain is fantastic at filing things into the subconscious. So operating the car, you're not thinking about driving the car. You just drive the car because the whole program is running in the subconscious. Yeah. And we're also great at getting rid of distractions so we can focus on the things we want, which means filing everything else into that white noise category. And when you get on shrooms, it's no longer white noise. Yeah. It's all right there. All these things that you've learned to ignore. Yeah. Through design. Yeah. You now can see. And I think probably for different people, there's a different level of that, right? Because we talked about this on a couple episodes ago. I feel that I'm in my head all the time. Yeah. And you feel that way too. I'm in my head so much that I'm not paying attention to the physical world around me very often. And yeah. So this was such a different reality for me. Whereas for some other people, I think it wasn't as extreme. Right. It's not as big of a difference. Yeah. The other thing that's great at doing, and this is well documented in what's his name's book? Michael Collins. Yeah. Michael Collins book is your brain's really really good at comprehending you as an individual. And then the world separate from you and around you. Yeah. And Shrooms breaks down the barriers a bit of your sense of individualness and your sense of detachment. And you feel like when you touch the pavement and you touch the flower that you're really interacting with it. Like in a way that is not I'm this and that's that. It's like, oh, we're this thing. And I don't know. That's the thing I also like about it is how it kind of shatters the succession of your identity. Yeah. Right. I guess. Well, so I had a top start. Uh-huh. I got really scared. Everyone who I trusted looked bizarre. And so everyone's getting high. And I had completely forgotten the most annoying part about doing drugs is that everyone just monitors how high they are for the first hour. Yeah. Are you on the three? Are you two? I don't want. Well, look at those trees. I was looking at the streets. Yeah. Was that leave doing that? No. That's what he's not doing this. Is that leave doing this? No. I can't feel anything. I'm too high. The whole thing. Yeah. I was like, I need to step out until everyone just feels high. Right. So I went inside and I started playing words with friends. Yeah. I was gone for 20 minutes. And then it really hit you. Yeah. 20 minutes. Yes. And you were like, what the fuck? You told me you're going to help me and you've abandoned me. Yeah. I felt like you gave me drugs like, well, a lot. I felt like we've been talking about this for years. You've been trying to get me to do this for years. And then you left. Yes. Which I did. I was very regrettable. But of all the people that were doing it, you were 0% high. You were saying. I was. Yeah. And I was like, oh, she's not even high. And this conversation is annoying. I'm going to go inside. I wasn't high. And then all of a sudden, I looked down at my hands, because you had said that when you do shrooms, you'll get your hands a lot. So I was kind of checking in with my hands to see. And they were normal. And then all of a sudden, I looked and then they shriveled up into grandma hands right in front of my eyes. And it was so startling and scary. And I thought, am I a grandma now? Like, I didn't know what was happening. And my grandma now. And then immediately, I felt really unsafe. And then abandoned. Yeah. And again, there's like layers of real life. This is why they're therapeutic. It's like whatever thing you really fear, it is going to be the loudest thing that if it goes wrong, that it'll be the first thing that comes out. So it's like in real life, you're so linked to my train and Kristen's train. And there's a certain amount of powerlessness in that. And what if we just disappear? And you're so linked to it. And then I just disappeared. Like it happened. I know. It was bad. And I was crying, which was I think a bummer for everyone. And then you came out. You came out to check on us. Well, I was like, oh, he's coming back. And then you came back. And then you looked fuzzy. Uh-huh. You didn't know if I was real. By the way, when I when I did come outside, you were crying and you were also laughing. You know that? You were like, you were you were bouncing back and forth between crying and laughing. Because we were telling the story about Ryan's dad calling. Uh-huh. And I was crying during that because I was not literally paying attention to that. I was crying. But then Ryan was like, Monica hates this story. And then I started laughing because obviously I was not thinking about the story. But that was like a funny thing to say. But I was still crying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then when I got very involved, you were you were thinking you couldn't breathe. Yeah. And then you were really scared. And then I was like, okay, we need to reset. Let's go out on the street. Let's take a little walk. And no one's ever stopped breathing on trumps. Yeah. Your body knows how to breathe. You don't have to think about breathing. Yeah. I did. And it was so impressive because when I saw you I was like, Oh, fuck, man. I told her to do this. It's gone south. Yeah. Generally when it goes south, it stays south. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. I really kind of misled you. And I was very pessimistic and bombed. And then 15 minutes into the walk, things started changing. And then you just had this very beautiful ride. I did. It was so sweet. Well, you said, listen, you can choose for the next three hours. Things are going to be fucked up looking. Yeah. And you get to decide how you see it. So I chose to enjoy it and find it beautiful. And I did it. And it was it was really spectacular. Yeah. It was really cool. I was so happy on the ride home in the minivan Chrysler Pacifica. A little better vehicle to have someone on trumps. Okay. We don't need one. I love it. I love it. I love it. I used to go, you were right. This isn't to be missed on planet earth. And I was like, Oh, thank God. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that. I feel that. Yeah. It was real. Yeah. I was really. I was like, man, I fucking I would have put that on like if if that hadn't gotten turned around, that would have been as bad as if you didn't end up getting your house after I said, you're going to get that. So it was, it was that level or worse. You put a lot of pressure on yourself, but you shouldn't have, but it, no, it was dumb that I split. But again, you, you really weren't high at all. Everyone else was a little high and you simply weren't. I was like, I don't, who knows? It hit so bad. In my opinion, maybe not. Maybe it was more slow than I thought. Well, that's another thing that just is relevant is that the initial idea was that people were going to microdose, which I was against. I was like, there's really no point in microdosing. In my opinion, now, it might be great for people like severe depression and they can do it and still work. I have no opinion on that. But for the experience I wanted you to have microdosing isn't it? So it started as a microdosing experiment. Yes. Quickly no one felt anything. So then you guys doubled the microdose dose, which still I was like, to do what I know you should do. Yeah. Which is like, have a cap and a stem. And fucking let's see what happens. Yeah. So after this is what else I made it really tricky for me to help navigate you guys is like, you guys took the one pill, then he took 25 minutes later, he took another pill. And then then I go, then I go, then I go get real shrooms and bring, yes, someone's eating chocolate. I'm like, who even makes this chocolate? You guys that could have 10,000 milligrams of cells. I've been or one. What do you know? So then the real mushrooms were procured in real form that I knew about caps and stems. But at this point, that's now 75 minutes from when you guys took the f*ck and I'm like, you guys f*ck this whole thing. You're just on a cap and stem at the beginning. Like I said, now God knows, I think this would be good for you. But anyway, it was left to me to basically dose you guys. Yeah. Yeah. So I picked for everyone what they should have. And for the most part, I did a good job. Yeah. And that was another part I'm remembering now. So, okay, first of all, yes, I went in thinking this is going to be a microdose situation that maybe some colors are going to be a little brighter than normal. Yeah. So my expectations were not set correctly. And then they didn't catch up to when we. But you kept changing your opinion too like I want more like I feel nothing. Oh, well Well, I was like now that I've done this yeah, I better feel something now I did not want to feel like the my art my hands were grandma hands Yeah, I just wanted what I was promised which was that the world was gonna be a little brighter and sparklier or something But you had been told from other friends who had microdose correct. Yeah, so So I was like let's take more, but I was I was not in the head space that I was gonna like Take a full dope. Yeah. Yeah, so anyway, so When you were dosing us you said to me I think you should take this and I said really and you didn't like that I said that I didn't be because it in my defense I had lost complete control you like you guys had taken the one pill in the second pill and I would I at this point I was like If you want me involved let me do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand your point of view like I already said don't do that Now we're here, and now it's time for you to listen to me And so I was I was losing patience totally I understand that and I was scared Yeah, I was scared and I was just like are you like this seems like a lot. Yeah, yeah And in my defense I was right like that that wasn't a microdose exactly It was like this is what I'm doing now, but I was skeptical and you didn't like it, and then I felt like okay Now he's mad at me about that, but you weren't the only person arguing with me if you recall yeah, but you snapped at me Of course I did I know exactly So I and you know why it's actually probably not that we disagreed about that It's the I want you to trust me and I'm pissed you don't trust me because I would never I know Not take care of you although 20 minutes later. I did not take care of it. Well, that was part of it That was part of it. So I said okay, okay, okay, and then I I did it and then I was like Are you serious? You got mad at me when I when I pushed back then I said okay, and now you're gone Yeah, you had big grievance you had a legitimate grievance But it all worked out it all worked out all worked out and it was lovely and I'm very grateful for you And I'm very grateful you were there and I would not have been able to turn around if you worked there Oh, well, I'm sorry. It made me so happy that you guys had such a sweet night. Yeah, it was really funny to because of the I'd say the success of the evening. Yeah, it's kind of Disappointed through our friendship circle a couple different people told me like I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go with my girlfriend and we're gonna do it. I forget where and I was like cool And your girlfriend's done it and and she's like no, and I'm like you know, I'm like you can't go to a new No, there's some place they've never been no neither person have done it I'm like I'm telling you you will convince yourself that you've got the one bad batch of mushrooms and you're gonna die That's what's gonna happen if there's not someone there who's either done it a bunch or a sober like I am To go everything's chill. No one's ever been hurt Let's start thinking about this I agree Yeah, I would not recommend two people on their own experiment my friend Greg Introduce me to it. I'll never forget. What a fucking day. I think I was About 18. Yeah, I got a high school and I was just like living in Detroit and working for my mom And I worked with this guy Greg. Oh, I fucking love so much and He had this big jar of shrooms. He's like yeah, if you ever want to do him And he was a normal guy. He wasn't a druggy. Yeah, like if he had been like a druggy type I wouldn't trust him But he's a pretty straight-laced dude who believed in psilocybin said a young age Yeah, he came over in four of us did him at my mom's house And then we wandered into camp deer barn which I had been in a million times I knew it was supposed to look like yeah, and we wandered around the toboggan hills and I found a bulldozer that had the key in it I drove a bulldozer But it was such an incredible time. Yeah, really was and there's nothing grimy about it Like if you do coke you get fucking gross if you do Accency you get pretty gross. You do Matthew get gross Yeah, a lot of these drugs they you know they bring out the pleasure center of your brain. Yeah The shrooms is not that at all. Shrooms is there's nothing grody about it. No Also for anyone who would want to sue me in the future because I told you to do it I'm telling you not to do it. Don't ever do shrooms. I am not condoning anyone to do shrooms I'm not I'm not encouraging anyone to and I'm not liable But my experience with shrooms was this and yours was that. Yeah, just be very clear. Yes Yes, so arm cherry gets looped up and rides a bicycle off a bridge. I know No, no, no, we're not Advocating condoning now. This is our experience that we're sharing. Yeah We had a really funny moment where I kept pointing things out to Monica again because I've done them a hundred times And I know what's good at what things are gonna look cool on it. What aren't so I'm like, oh Monica look at the wood here Look at the little grain in the wood and I'm like look at that house You think there's a sitcom going on in there or drama and then you go how do you know that are you on it? Are you making me think that or do I think that and you also like it was so fun and then I thought you weren't real Because I thought maybe you were just in my brain somehow and you were out on your own walk Yeah, I did so like oh my god. You know everything. I'm thinking so which can't be you must be in my brain Which means you're not real That was another big takeaway was which you know I think we know this in life, but it was so apparent how Effected we are by other people and other people's energy. So when I say I bummed everyone out I think that's for real like I'm really glad you pulled me out quick Because everyone probably would have started getting really sad really quick. Yeah, because your Energy is so infectious and if you point something out and and it looks weird like a grandma hand When I saw it first I was like and One of the other Yes, was like I know I know I know Yeah, and then we both were kind of feeding off of like oh that got that got really scary real quick. Okay. Okay. Yeah But then later when another participant was looking at hands She was like, isn't it cool? Yeah, and Then I was like it is cool to look down at your own hands that you've been staring at Your whole lifetime and for them to be different Is awesome. It is but you can choose you either can see it look both things are true. It is scary To see something you know To be real and substantial in front of you not be that yeah, and it's also cool So whatever you say can have such a big impact on the people around you and that's just like so true about life Like your energy and what you say but again, it does go to that thing on the scene where it's kind of a voting these walls between us where it's like it is so transmissible. Yeah, like the loves more transmissible. Yeah fears more transmissible It's all more transmissible But the thing is I don't know that it's more I think it's the same amount as what we're doing day to day We're just not as aware of it our energy Does that on a daily basis? I don't agree though because the participant you're talking about in general life That person could make an observation you would go well, yeah, of course she sees it that way because she's this she's this thing She's that thing she's this thing but I'm this thing that thing and this thing so it's not the same for me Like I'll go of course that guy thinks that I always do this like anytime. I have a disagreement with someone's perspective I immediately try to Figure out why their perspectives different. I don't assume that their perspective is correct That's true. I think of the reasons why we have different one But you can really share perspective in a way on shrooms that it's hard to share I guess I mainly mean more energy wise like if people are happy You can you can borrow that energy yeah, but if someone is sat around you That has an impact whether you you can logically be like that separate from me. Mm-hmm. It is seeping in. Oh, yeah Well, anyone who has a partner who has depression Has experienced that yeah, yeah, so it's again social responsibility. You got to take care of yourself So that you can take care of people around you. Yeah, when are you gonna do it again? Not in a rush to do it again. It was wonderful, but I definitely don't feel like I gotta do that next weekend Again, that's in it. Yeah, that's the thing. I'm talking. It's not like getting drunk or it's like that was fun I want to get fucked up tonight. Yeah, there's something it's we it's a little exhausting Yeah, like the next couple days you're aware That you went through this thing. Oh for sure In a in a nice way though in this like you're tapped into some emotion. Yeah, that's sweet Yes, and you can feel it and you're not anxious to get back in the fire because you're processing right and trying to understand it all right Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it drugs. Don't do them You