634: Tom Nolan (CEO of Kendra Scott) - 2% Moments, Setting Big Goals, Being Unbalanced, Moving Fast, Coaching High Performers, & Going Through Hard Things Together

This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to providing amazing people to their clients and taking great care of them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people or transform your business through talent or technical services, Insight Global can get you the people you need and help you develop them to reach their full potential. Developing your people can be tough, but having productive employees can be magic. Visit Insight Global.com/learningleader. That's Insight Global.com/learningleader to learn more. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawke. Thank you so much for being here. If you'd like to see this show notes for this and all episodes, go to learningleader.com. Now, onto the night's featured leader, Tom Nolan, is the CEO of Kendra Scott, a leading jewelry and accessories brand based in Austin, Texas with over 20 years of experience in brand building management and strategic planning. Tom oversees the day-to-day business and strategy of the 3200 employee multi-billion dollar company. During our conversation, we discussed why Kendra Scott specifically chose Tom to be the CEO of her company. Then Tom talks about two percent moments in life and how to make the most of them. And then he shared essentially a spicy take why a company is not responsible for work-life balance. And then he shares the impact that setting ambitious goals has had on him and what they could have for you. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Kendra Scott CEO, Tom Nolan. I love learning about your upbringing, Manu York and your dad being an electrician and you playing baseball and how baseball has really impacted your life, helped send you to college. Can you talk me a little bit about what you learned playing baseball that has now helped you as a CEO? Yeah, I mean, I couldn't cut it in football like you. So I had to do something else. So I played baseball and basketball, football and high school, but ultimately played baseball paid for college and other. And you mentioned that my dad was an electrician, dropped out of high school in the 11th grade. So first person, my family graduated from high school. And if it wasn't for sports, you know, I'd probably be an electrician, which maybe served me well in life. But I wanted a different path and I was fortunate enough that at the time I used to be a decent athlete and paid for school. And but yeah, I mean, as you know, and a lot of your guests on the show have mentioned, you've mentioned before, it's I think the lesson you learn in sports kind of stay with you throughout your life. And there's so many, you know, conduits to real life and business and raising a family and success. I think that you learn on a court or field that you just can't, it's harder to learn in real life. As a leader, one of the most important elements is who you choose to surround yourself with. And as an athlete, you know, always get to make those choices, but you do have to figure out how to collaborate with them and work with them and and strive for a common goal. So I'm curious now that you do have more power in building and selecting the team. How do you think about that? How do you think about who I'm choosing to surround myself with and my executive team? Yeah, I mean, I think I think one of the things you learn on a sport field is you got to play the position that you're playing to be the best you can on that to contribute contribute to the team to win games. If you're playing a team sport, I think an individual sport like golf or tennis or, you know, is a little bit different, but if you're in a team sport, which I played predominantly and you played, you got to play your position. And I think the things that I've learned through the years is, you know, I was a pitcher. And if I tried to be a pitcher and a first baseman and a center fielder and a catcher, like I probably wouldn't have been good at any of those things. So I knew what I was good at. And then we were fortunate enough in baseball, but also in life to surround yourself with people that are better at things that you're not great at and make your weaknesses a little bit better and qualify and want to fight your strengths. So I feel like those are lessons. And ultimately the goal is to win as a team together, right? There's no, no I and team that all that edge obviously people have overused for many years, but it's true. I mean, I think when you play on teams and one of the lessons I've learned in business is like, you know, you don't always necessarily have to like the people on your team, but you love them, right? And like you'll run through a wall for them. And I think those things and those lessons learn the galvanization of going through hard things. I think is what makes you stronger as an individual and you don't learn, you know, this is another adage that's used way too much is like you don't learn from the successes you learn from the failures and, you know, you learn from the failures in sports, you learn from the failures in business, but I think over the years. Learning what you're not good at surrounding yourself with people that are great and smarter than you, which for me is not that hard because I feel like most people are smarter than me. Is is been some of the best lessons I've learned and allowed me to be successful because of the people around me. You mentioned most people smart knew I doubt that's true. I am curious though as to this transition because you're the CEO of a company named after someone else that's still very much alive and active in present. Right. Kendra Scott, especially if you're a dad of daughters, you know, all about Kendra Scott, I've probably given you thousands and thousands of dollars over the years. And it's great stuff. I love it. That was what attracted me to want to have this conversation with you is because we love Kendra Scott in our house. She chose you for a reason, right? She could have chosen anybody literally anybody and most people would take that job, right? Whether they work there or not. Why did Kendra choose you to succeed her and be the CEO of her company of her baby, right? Like this is the thing she started. It's in her name and you're the CEO now. Yeah. I mean, a moment of weakness clearly. But I'd been on the board. I've been on our board for over 10 years now. And I think I had I had some time on the board before joining the organization in an operating role. And I've only worked for founders. I've been a founder. I serve on the board of founder led companies. I mostly investing. I do is in founder led businesses. So like I understand that that dynamic. And you mentioned it. It's like it is a founder sees their business as their child, right? So I think when I joined this organization in an operating role, I joined it as chief revenue officer and chief marketing officer. And then became president after that. And I truthfully between Ryan, I like I just thought that was my ceiling because I worked for founders. I worked for Ralph Lauren. I saw Ralph hold on to the CEO title for a long time. And I just thought that was going to be it because I understood that dynamic of like, you know, the idea of giving custody to somebody else of your child is a really hard thing to do. But I think over the years, the main reason was we have an unbreakable trust. I guess is the best way to say it. I think Kendra trust me. And she obviously recognizes that, you know, I'd like to think I'm good at things that she's not the best at, even though she's the best at a lot of things. And she certainly is greater things that I'm not great at. And but I think ultimately it's rooted in trust. I think anytime you give anybody anything from a business perspective or team perspective to go back to your old knowledge, you got to trust the person next to you. And I think it was ultimately that she trusted me and knew that I would. I would take good care of her, her baby just to a large degree and you mentioned it. She's very involved in the business still. Thankfully, she oversees all of our product, everything creative, all a brand and philanthropy. And I think it's not just my job, but the rest of the company's job here is just to execute the amazing vision that she has. And we've done it really well over the last really a company's been around for more than 20 years now. We've done it really well for almost two decades or going on longer than two decades. I've noticed that a lot of trusting relationships have at least two qualities and those are high character and high competence. How have you and Kendra built so much trust? Why does she trust you with her baby? You know, we've been through hard things together. I think, you know, my, my title change from president to CEO came right after COVID and, you know, anybody leading a business through COVID and any capacity or leading a team or even managing your own job or your own finances, your own family. And you know this, when you go through hard things, you know, whether it's, you know, you're at the, you're in the end of the end of the fourth quarter and you're down by a touchdown or at the bottom of the ninth and you down by a couple runs. I mean, when, when a team wins when you're facing really like real adversity. I think it galvanizes people and it brings that unit closer together. I think she saw enough in board meetings and day to day activities is either president or chief marketing or revenue officer that I was going to do the right thing for a kid, not the right thing for me, but the right thing for our business and ultimately for our customer and our people. I mean, we're very, and you know, this is an athlete, like you got to be very protective of your people. So we are hyper protective. I am a hyper protective of my family at home. And what's cool about this company is I really don't see the employees here, much different if at all than my family at home, like really feels like a family team unit. And I care about the people here and I've been like this everywhere I've worked, but like for some reason here it's it's kind of not not shit up a bunch and maybe it's because we've been through hard things. Maybe it's because of the demographic of our constituents here, but it really does feel like a family. And I think can't just sees it as a family obviously. And I think she saw that in me and allowed me that great honor of having the title of CEO for business. - The family element can be tricky though, because your family, which we are talking about before we started recording with your wife and your children and your vacation in North Carolina for the summer, like all that, you're not gonna fire your family, at least I doubt it, right? But you do have to fire people at work. So how does that work? How do you view them as family? But sometimes some people don't meet the standard. Sometimes they don't do it the right way and you gotta let them go. That's part of being a leader. You gotta fire people. So how does that play? When you wanna create an environment where it feels like family, but you're not gonna fire a family member, but you will fire an employee or a member, a team member at Kendra Scott. How does that work? - There's two parts to it, Brian. It's a great question. The first part is, I grew up in New York. I'm a meds fan, but I'm gonna use a Yankees analogy, which pains me. But when the Yankees, when I was in college at Fordham, they were winning everything and it was like, not everybody gets a play for the Yankees. I think that's important. So whatever the best team is in your mind, not everybody gets a play for that team. No matter how much you wanna play for the team, some people just aren't cut out for good enough to go to play for that team. So full stop there. The second part to your question is, I think that there are, I don't like to use the analogy of having to fire somebody, 'cause that's the worst case scenario. Unfortunately, you're right. It does happen sometimes, but the analogy I like to use is, you know, I think the best lessons I've learned as a dad, correlate perfectly to being a good leader of people, or a captain of a team or something like, I think I discipline my children because I love them and I care about them. And I think, if you think about your family, I go to my family when I wanna know the truth, 'cause I know they're gonna tell me the truth. I might not be what I wanna hear, but it's always gonna be what I need to hear if you really care about somebody authentically. If you don't care about somebody authentically and it's easier for you to just tell them some BS that they wanna hear, that's what happens, right? But I think the people that you care about the most, like my kids, I hate disciplining them. I just had an issue where my youngest daughter, we had to suspend social media, which was like the end of the world for her. But, you know, that's one small analogy, but like she was furious with us for doing that. And, you know, the world was over and all, but I'm just like, you know, then she's crying and screaming at the whole thing. And it's like, but I did it 'cause I love her, and I know it's gonna make her better at the end of the day. So I think work in the same ways. We are very honest with people, and unfortunately, the point you made earlier, there's sometimes this isn't the right fit for everybody. And I think it is love and care to say that directly to somebody, there's nothing worse than just like kicking the ball down, kicking the can down the curb a little bit or kicking it down the field and like letting somebody struggle and something for longer. You're hurting yourself, you're hurting that person, you're hurting their future. And ultimately, when you have to make those hard decisions, I think everybody winds up coming out of it on the other side. Now, how you deal with those things, I think is very specific. We, I am very proud with how we treat people in the worst case scenario, if that was to happen, to make sure that they're landing on their feet. I've spent a lot of time helping people that don't work out here find other jobs. So I think like those kind of things matter. And then again, I use a lot of old adages today, but you know, people remember how you make them feel and that what you say or do. And you know, these kind of, those kind of things just kind of stick with me. And I read a book probably 15, maybe 20 years ago now, called The Way of the Shepherd. I named our fourth child, this name Shepherd after this book. And it's all about servant leadership. And it talks about, you know, the best leaders genuinely care about their people. And they understand the shape of them. They understand what makes them work. Like what motivates Ryan is very different than what motivates Tom and very different than what motivates somebody else. Like if you don't really know somebody as an individual, you can't possibly lead them the right way. But it's all about servant mentality. And like these kind of things, I think I've learned. And I've read that book probably, I don't know, used to be once a month, it's probably now once a quarter for the last, you know, 15, 20 years. It's great, great book, easy to read. Not as many pictures as a lot of the books that I like, but it's a, it's an awesome book. - Man, I love the element of how you make people feel and genuinely caring for them. Now, can we get tactical for a second? You're a CEO. There's lots of people that want your time, that look up to you. What do you tactically do to show your people that you genuinely care for them? Like what does it look like? What does it sound like? What are some of the meetings? What are the one-on-ones? I'm just curious to go inside Tom's life here for a second so that you can almost get to the perspective of somebody else of what it feels like to be cared for from you. - Yeah, well, I mean, again, it's different for everybody, but I would say a couple of things tactically that I do, I mean, I'm always on, right? Because like for me, I have no balance in my life, right? I like out of balance. I love working. I love my family, like, but my life's not in balance by any stretch of the imagination. And I think if you want to become a successful business person, your life's probably gonna be out of balance. Like if you're gonna do it the right way. So the reason I'm saying that is, I'm always on. So 24/7, 365, you know, this thing is with me at all times. My watch is always with me. And, you know, I have a family unit at home that understands that and supports it. But the way it shows up is I'm always on for people. Like everybody in this company has my email address, everybody has my cell phone number, people can text me whenever they want. I mean, like everybody, we have 3,200 employees, I think, today. And I show up for them whenever and however they need me. I don't care what their title is, I don't care where they live. Like, I will be there if somebody needs me. And I think that's really important for me to show up as my authentic self. You know, the way that we try to spread that out through the organization is like, you know, yellow we call traditionally what's known as Black Friday. We call it yellow Friday because that's our color. But yellow Friday, cyber Monday, you know, I work in our retail stores. My wife works with me in the retail stores. We work in our distribution center. We get front of customers. We help the employees like, and, you know, it matters to me when our employees are having a baby or getting married or somebody unfortunately passes away. And they're like, we want to show up for them the right way. So the easiest way for me to explain is like, tactically, I just show up as a normal human being for people that work for and with me. And I think unfortunately, the title that goes along with this office, people get, you know, caught up in some of that sometimes. And they forget that all people really want us to be treated like a normal human being and know that you're a normal human being that has normal emotions and a family and all these different things. And I think everybody, I hope everybody that works here that truly knows me and has taken the time also because it's a two-way street. I can't just be someone in my job like outbound all the time. Like it's got to be a two-way street. And I think that the people that have put the time in also to get to know me and would say, would I help would say those things about, you know, my warmth and kindness. And truthfully, I learned a lot of different kind of. She's, she is a, she's accessible. She's warm. She's open. She's kind. She's giving, obviously, she's smart and dynamic and all the great things that have made her one of the most successful female entrepreneurs in the country. But at the end of the day, she's a great mom and a great partner and a great friend. And I think she said a good example for the rest of us. I appreciate your honesty there. I remember when I had Dr. Julie Garner on, one of the biggest psychologists in the world. And she said, you look at greatness and excellence over time in history. It was usually born out of times when you weren't perfectly balanced. So while a CEO might supposed to say, well, we have perfect work life balance here. And we do this or we do that. You're like, nope, trying to do something big here. I'm trying to, yeah. I think it's like the second part of that point is our company. And I think a lot of it is just because when I first started we were 99% female today, we're like just over 90% female. But because we had so many working moms, we've had to be flexible from the very beginning. So I do think it's a company's job to offer the flexibility that an individual needs to be able to find whatever balance looks like for them. But like for a company to your point to be like, oh, this is what we do for work life balance is nonsense. Because that just means you didn't get to know the person individually. Because like, I don't want balance. Like I want to work my tail off. I want to be successful. I want to win. I also want to show up to my kids. My son's got a baseball game tonight. I will be this baseball game. I don't miss them if I can because I have the flexibility through work to be able to do that. But I do think sometimes it's nonsense to what you were saying when people say that very proactively. It's just it's not real. When an employee or maybe even someone who's thinking about becoming a member of Kendra Scott, here's that answer. How do people respond to that? Since it's not maybe what you're supposed to say as a CEO? Most people respond really well to it. I don't think I say a lot of things that you're supposed to say as a CEO because I don't know where you're supposed to say. Because I just know what I say. And the mentors I've had in my life for the ones that spoke were authentic and spoke the truth and walked the talk. Like it's easy to say something. It's hard to do something. So I walk the talk in my life. And I think that that's really important. And I think the people that understand that react well to it and the people that don't that want work life accompanied to determine what work life balance means for them. It's probably isn't the company found in work at. Yeah. Speaking of being a CEO, I've never been a CEO of a 3200 person company. What's something about being a CEO that would surprise those of us who have never been in that role? I think like there's nothing special to it. I have, again, I told you I was the first person my family graduated high school. I'm not going to be. the smartest person in most rooms, if any room. I have worked my tail off. Everything I've done, I've done 150% everything. I've never been afraid to ask a stupid question. I've never been afraid of saying the wrong thing. I've never been afraid of taking a chance. And it's put me in, I'd call it two percent moments at times, but you have to recognize when you're in a two percent moment and then do something about it. Like I think there's one thing of like getting a job, and then there's another thing about making the most of that opportunity or that job to be successful. And then showing up for your people. So I think like maybe the thing that people, like two things, one, the person occupies this office, whether you're the CEO of a company that has five employees or 500 million employees, it's the same thing. Like you're leading people, right? You're a normal human being, you're a regular person, regardless of what your title says, how much money you make, whatever. Like you still, everybody puts their shoes on the same way. And I think like there's this, I've recognized this. Well, I don't like being in my office. Like I'd rather walk around and either be with customers and be with our employees. I feel alienated when I'm stuck here. And I've recognized, I used to think I could walk around and just like go up to everybody and be like, hey, Ryan, how you doing? How's your day? Tell me about your weekend. It freaks people out. And I never understood that. But I have come to understand a little bit more. Like there's just like a fear associated with this office of like, oh my gosh, if I say the wrong thing and when will lose my job, if I say the wrong thing, like something bad is going to happen, it's like, that's not true. So I think like maybe the biggest thing is that I don't know about, I only know what I know, right? But for me, I want to just be treated like everybody else. I don't want any special treatment. I don't want it to be looked at differently. I just, I want to be a part of the organization in the way everybody else is. And I would have guessed a lot of other people in my role would say the same way if they're motivated by the right kind of things. What's a 2% moment? A 2% moment is, you know, spelled out pretty simply is 98% of the time things are happening and like it's normal. 2% of time it's a little different. Like when I met my wife, 2% moment, you know, when I had an opportunity to come work at Kendra Scott, you know, you get an inbound phone call on a job that maybe doesn't fit like this job certainly didn't fit for me. Like I didn't have a crazy passionate working at women's jewelry business for sure. But there was something interesting about it. I was like, that's a moment I should probably take advantage of. I had other things going on, but I got on an airplane, flew out to Austin, met with Northwest venture partners and Kendra and it changed my life. So I think it's just like recognizing when there's things that don't happen very often that might probably be in inconvenience to the path that you're on, but take a swing at it. I feel like that's a 2% moment. Then, you know, the other thing that kind of correlates to that Ryan is, I've always been like a goal maniac and this is probably the athlete, you know, former athlete and me at least where, you know, you write something down and you make it real, it gives you something to achieve. And if you feel like you're winning, then you keep going and if you feel like you're losing all the time, it's hard to kind of pick yourself up. But I think goals go along with 2% moments. Then you can, you know, if you're mapping things back to your goals, there's 2% moments and they become easier to spot, maybe. I like that. I just like little phrases for inflection points for big moments. And speaking of that, you brought it up very briefly, but I think from a leadership perspective, I am fascinated by how leaders earn leadership positions. And so you mentioned you flew out to Austin and you saw Kendra and I believe it sounds like a, uh, is a private equity guys with it. Okay. So you flew out. What were you doing at that time and what made you fly out to meet with her and the private equity guys? Yeah. So, uh, I'll take you back a little bit, a little bit earlier because this is an important part of my story. So my, when I first get out of college, I don't know if this is the same for you or not, but at least baseball in the summer, like I had summer leagues and I played golf in college as well. So I was like, I never had an internship. So I never had an internship for you. It was like, I didn't know any better mainly because of my parents. Like, you know, I like mullons and I was caddy and I played baseball ever. So I got out of school and I had nothing but a piece of paper that said, you know, I graduated from college and turns out is, you know, you may have learned like this hard to find a job when you just have that. And when you've got, you know, you're competing against the whole world of people that were like really diligent about this. So I kind of stumbled into an interview with a publishing firm called Ziff Davis and I interview with a guy named Jason Sparks. It was the interview for a job. I think it was paying like $12,000 a year to sell classified ads in the back is PC magazine, which I knew nothing about. Never read PC magazine. You know, and the first thing about selling ads and anything, but I interview with this guy and he sits down with me. And again, this is for like a nothing, nothing entry level job. And he says, tell me what your goals are, where are you going to live? What do you want to achieve? And I had like no answer for you. Like no one ever asked me that question outside of a sports field. And I gave him some kind of nonsensical 22 year old kid answer and he threw me out of his office. And I'm, and this is after like 15 different 20 different interviews and I got none of them. Zero. I was pulling up goose eggs. I interviewed it. It was so bad that I interviewed for jobs going door to door selling Bibles. And I don't know what skill said that requires, but I didn't have it. So I didn't get that job. So anyway, I'm walking down the hallway. It's Ziff Davis 28th and Park was their office in New York City. And I get halfway down the hallway and I'm like, I can't go home. I was living still living with my parents. I had no money. If I, as I could, if I go home, my dad just going to make me go work for him or John Sparrow, again, oh, one of his, you know, construction buddies. And it's not what I wanted. So I went back to Jason's office and I said, hey, if I come, go, go home tonight and think about my goals. Can I come back? Can we restart this thing first thing tomorrow? And he was like, yeah, whatever. And I'm, I'm certain he thought he'd never seen me again. So I went on my state up literally all I didn't sleep. I sat up all night and I wrote my goals. My 10 year goals down. I was 22. I wrote 10 years when I was 32. 10 years in my goals down. And I was like maniacal about it. Like the money I wanted to make, the car I wanted to drive, the jobs I wanted to have. But it means like it was pages of goals. So get up, go back, get the job. And then fast forward, somewhere around 10 years later, did really well as if Davis went up going to Conte Nass, became a magazine publisher at Golf World magazine, which is my favorite magazine. When I was 26 years old, which is crazy. And my wife and I are moving from one house to another. And I found the goal sheet. I used to keep it up in my, in my cubicle there. And it was like, I was not so about every decision I would make would have to map back to those goals. And it was just output. I learned really early on. It was like, if I had to make phone calls, everybody else is going to make 25 phone calls and make 125 phone calls. Like everything to me was output. And output put me in better opportunities, better opportunities got me access to different people that gave me those 2% moments that I talked about. And then I made the most of them and then I became, that kept being more successful. So I found that that goal, those goal sheets, and I did every one of them. Like it was nuts. Every one of them in 10 years, I accomplished everything on my list. In my first feeling, I was pissed. I was like, man, I should have made these things better. And what were some of them? Like the money I wanted to make, the title I wanted to have. How much money was it? At the end, well, one of them at the time was to make $100,000 a year. For sure. Yeah, I would have doubted that would have been mine at 22 for sure. It was like six big. I couldn't imagine my dad made 35,000 and as best years. So like the fact that I can make a hundred gram be like mind blowing to me. I had for some reason, Lexus had just come out at the time. I wanted a Lexus. I asked 300. Got that car. Like it was just stuff like that. Buy a house. That was another one. I bought a house when I was 25 years old. And it was just like these things that happened. I was very fortunate. So especially coming from where I came from, I didn't expect a lot. Right. So I like I've always had an appreciation for things because I had nothing my whole life. So and everything I achieved I earned. Right. Like I've nothing nothing's ever been given to me. So I had this whole mentality. Anyway, sorry, long with it. Answer your question. Then went from Cunning asked to Ralph Lauren worked at Ralph for a number of years. And I love that I get to learn spent a lot of time with Ralph himself. I learned the business from Roger Farrah who is amazing. I think the best operator I've ever worked with. And then, you know, having worked for both Zip Dave is Bill Zip and then Ralph. And then Sineu has a Cunning asked. These were all founders. I saw how they started from nothing created something really special. I wanted to do my own thing. I left Ralph Lauren to start a holding company called Prospect Brands because I grew up on Prospect Place on my island. And one of our things we we bought basically distress assets. And while I was doing that, I moved my family from Ridgewood, New Jersey to Greensboro, North Carolina. I went to business school at Chapel Hill after that. And then while I was there, I got a random phone call from a guy named Rob Artiti who worked at Northwest Venture Partners saying they just made an investment in a jewelry company in Austin, Texas called Kendra Scott if I would be interested in joining their board because I had one outside independent board seat to name. No idea how he found my name. I'd never served on a board before. I had no experience in women's jewelry or accessories of any capacity. And like that was that 2% moment. Like, like, I think normally you'd be like, I have no passion for this. I have no expertise in this. I'm no way I'm going to add value in this category. Pass. But I was like, you know what sounds interesting to me. I don't know anything about this. I never been in Austin, Texas. I did a little bit of diligence on the business. It was a tiny little business. Doing about $40 million in sales at the time. But flew out there. I had a sister who passed away. Who had a brain aneurysm, which was tragic and sudden. I only sibling Kendra and I kind of hit it off. And she kind of has filled that void for me, if you will, for the last decade or so. And that's how we went up here. And I think the lesson I've learned through that Ryan is like not just to Be determined about you know following your goals and making the right decisions and one of the things I'm like my next goals was like join boards, right? So like that was how it led to that but the other part is I love learning and I like doing things I don't know anything about because I always hated when I was Working in companies two things one when people would walk in a room and just act like no at all Right, like I hated it. I just I didn't like anything about it I just I didn't like it and then the second was I didn't like not having a voice when I was younger in my career And I always had something to say so The idea that I could go do something that I knew nothing about I thought was great because I wasn't gonna be a know it all I would be forced to ask a lot of questions. I wasn't passionate about it, which was great because it changed my It made me more objective than subjective. You know what Ralph? Or even a con and ask a golf world like I was I was a customer, you know like I would I would look at something very subjective. You're like, I don't know Do I like the shirt do I not like the shirt or like the buttons? I like the way it fits I didn't like that article because it didn't talk to things I cared about like this was totally different and It was a major unlock for me and I think there's a ton of value and going to do something that you don't know anything about It just it naturally humbles you and I think in itself by doing that it adds a lot of value and You mentioned that you're more of a learn it all than to know it all very curious You get excited about the fact that you don't know about it Which is the opposite of most humans right most people like want to stay inside those very Comfortable walls of their comfort zone. They're not gonna bang on those edges and it feels like you're living outside of those edges So that's something you're obviously really good at that's a skill you've developed What are some of the other things that you're really good at because you said Kendra's really good at some things Or the best that them and I'm really good or the best at some things So what are some of the other things that like you're really good at and in addition to being a learn it all instead of a know-it-all This serves me well and not well sometimes, but I do think it's a skill that I do have my best friend in the world Says what I have is immediate urgency which makes no sense like if you're urging it doesn't need to be immediate I like to be double it does that the opposite no, okay So I just I have the highest degree of urgency in every single thing in my life that I do But I think it shows up really well in the work environment and I think that things that go along with that is I'm a good problem solver, you know, I'll figure out a way to get it done and Because I'm not afraid to turn over stones or try something different or Throw an idea at the wall that sounds completely ridiculous sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't and I just think like Those things, you know, and it goes back to our culture here in Kendra and I are similar in this regard that You know and you've probably been on teams like this or working in companies like this I know I have that need to win in a corporate culture doesn't always show up the right way I mean sometimes it creates toxic environments it creates bad behavior we have balanced it here with As bad of a need we all have to win and it's not again There's a difference between need to win and want to win like some people need to win if you know what I'm talking about another people But it's like oh, it's nice to win We balance out that need to win with compassion and kindness and warmth and humility and I think that's what makes this great and I do think You know for me it I'd consider that a skill set that I've learned I wasn't always like that I used to be the need to win at all costs like whatever it takes kind of person and and I've rounded it out here And I think it's a testament to the amazing Female and male leaders that I work with now that warmth and compassion. It's not just about like This is what we're gonna do. It's this is what we're gonna do. Here's why we're gonna do it Here's how it's maybe will make tongue-hat tell me how it makes you feel like how does that make you feel And if you don't understand it, I'm gonna be patient enough even though I have urgency To answer your questions and a thoughtful and honest way so I think I think that's a skill set I guess I think Kendra has it too But I think you know from a day-to-day operating perspective, which is a seed. I sit in Keeping that going constantly is really important and I think finally I'm I'm a lot better Generally speaking when things are hard than when they're easy. I just like it better the last couple years we've been Winning by growing 30% 30% 30% off a really big base. I love winning so that's fun But it's it's kind of more fun when things are challenging because you have to really be thoughtful about it And I think if you execute properly it separates the good from the grade Yeah, and it's at half time of a game when you're up by 40. It's like everybody's a leader It's pretty easy to see the oranges and go out and finish the game But when it's tough is when you are actually needed as my dad has always told me this is why you exist this these moments Right like you're you like you feel like you might be in one of them now Tom one of the commonalities I found them on leaders who sustain excellence over an extended period of time over the past decade of interviewing 630 plus of these people Is it's the first thing you said and I and I would maybe Maybe to even narrow down even more speed slash bias for action they're literally like fast walkers like legitimately when they walk they walk fast Now I try to surround myself with those types of people like the coaches on my team are Fast, I mean they move they uh they don't they just don't waste time They don't mess around like we are going and that's why I like being around them That's why I think we do a good job for the clients we work with but Sometimes when they're around people who aren't like that it's a little clunky like it can be a problem How was it for you a guy who has a bias for action a guy who has this immediate urgency when you are because not everybody's like that There's still good people at your company that are not like that. How do you manage it? How do you handle it when you're this bias for action guy but you're with others who are not it's Challenging there there's certainly lots of people that aren't that way in my life and It's challenging and navigate but I think like again if you can explain to people why you are the way that you are and what you're trying to accomplish You get more people on the bus that way versus just like steam rolling running fast over people Yeah, sometimes you have to run faster people and look I also get Ryan There is a tremendous amount of value in Patience and thoughtfulness right I'm not not that I'm well I'm not patient especially if you ask my mom or my family my mom or my wife or my parents or my family They would tell you the same thing. I'm not a patient person, but I am a thoughtful person, but I just I want to go like in action is really important to me And I'd rather again an attitude fail fast like yes all those things in spades There's great value in having a counterpoint to that right because sometimes when you're going really fast You make mistakes and having people that can catch some of those mistakes before you make them is really important my cfo Jason who's amazing and kind of my right hand Is is much more methodical than I am and there's so much value in that counterpoint and as you learn somebody too Like I know what he's gonna say he knows what I'm gonna say and I feel like there's just great value there And he's my look I know you're gonna want to move here, but just hear me out Here's a watch out and I think You know then I then I have the opportunity to weigh the counterpoint then make a decision and neither Go a little slower or run faster. So you mentioned having a great cfo who was like your right hand Jason I'm also as I mentioned at the beginning of this fascinated by the hiring process and the choice the choices you make of who's gonna again surround you So what are some of the must have attributes or qualities in a person For you to choose them to be a leader on your team I mean first and foremost thing you have to be a good human being if I want to surround myself with good people like first and foremost there is Anyone that's not ever been successfully here has never not been successful because of aptitude It's always been because of culture fit and attitude. So I think Our culture is very specific. I mentioned earlier we have this Insatiable need to win we balance it out with an incredible amount of kindness and compassion and I'm not in full disclosure. I'm a terrible interviewer like I'm really oh yeah, I have hired I just because I fall in love easy I think maybe and I've made some bad hiring choices over the years because I believed what somebody said and then when it came time for the rubber to meet the road and actions to happen Those two things juxtapose each other Huh, so what if I may like I think that's fascinating one high-level awareness and humility for you just to say that because I don't think a lot of CEOs would say that So how do you manage through that because you are making really important probably 2% moment decisions All the time especially when it comes to hiring how do you manage making good hires for leadership roles? I think well we have great team right so Daniel who runs our is our chief people officer She's another great counterpoint our interviewing process here is very it's become very rigorous like you learn from your failures It made some bad hiring decisions Over the course of my career now when we hire people it's not just Our chief people officer myself and maybe another person interviewing like the people that this person is going to be working for Will interview them and the piece that the people that will be working for them also are part of the interviewing process Oh, so it is it is a very laborious process now because I've learned the hard way of You know making on the fly decisions of like this person's great as I just trust me I know I feel like they're great like experience experience they worked at these great companies like that's not what it takes because Everybody's great on paper. I think the attitude and the app aptitude of wanting to be a part of this, wanting to move fast, wanting to be kind for other people, wanting to show up to our philanthropic events, wanting to lead with humility. It's very easy to say these things. It's very hard to do them because it takes dedication and time and commitment. I love interviewing and hiring athletes. I think there's just something about people that have done something competitively. There's just a spirit in you and your engine just runs a little differently than those that haven't. In certain environments, in the sales environment and the marketing environment and those capacities, I feel like it pays a very high dividend to have those kind of experiences. But not necessarily everywhere. But generally speaking, what I look for and we have great sounding boards here that can kind of round out whatever feelings I have. I think if you're building or you're a part of a high performance culture, which you have there, being coachable. And actually wanting to be coached are really good attributes in a person, just about any role. I grew up in a sales rep manager, director, VP. That was my track before leaving to do this stuff. And we were coached tough. We were coached really hard and that made us so much better. But I can tell you, it definitely wasn't for everyone, man. It definitely, because some people just don't handle it. I'm with you, whether it's military background sports, again, I try not to be biased, but man, it's tough at times because I know if they spent time serving our country or they spent time winning and losing and offseason workouts, puking and trash cans from running so much. It is hard. It's hard to find that in other avenues, man. Those people have for me at least have worked out really well. Rich players want to be left alone. Good players want to be coached. Great players want to be told the truth. There's a chapter in the book of the way, the shepherd that's called, you know, you want to find people that have a learner's heart. And it's all the same things that you're saying. It's like, again, if average people want to be left alone, they think they have the answers to everything. Good people want some level of coaching. Great people want to be told the truth. Whatever it's going to take to get better. So I think that, you know, to me, like that's one thing and then the idea of having a learner's heart, which you mentioned earlier is another thing. I mean, to me, it all goes back to being coachable, right? And, you know, I see it. You can see it in kids. Now I like to think I have four amazing children who have, I believe, all exemplify those kind of things. But you can see the kids even at a young age that don't. And, you know, they're probably not going to be on the best path. This may be a weird question for the CEO of Kendra Scott, but Tom, how passionate are you about jewelry? I mean, I wear a lot of it now. More than I could there. I listen, I grew up on Long Island. So I used to, I used to, I used to wear a little bit of bling when I was in high school. In fact, I just gave my, I used to, it's funny how you, you changed to get older, but my little eight year old was playing baseball right now is the only, the only kid in our family that does it. And he loves it. And all the kids now were like tons of jewelry. And you see it like with Major League Baseball players. I found, I found my old, I used to wear a Metz necklace, which is nuts to think about. I like it. I like it. I ever had a girlfriend, but I, I, anyway, yeah. So I traditionally have not been passionate about jewelry. I am crazy passionate about our customer and about our business. And I've learned so much about it through the eyes of my wife, through the eyes of my daughters, you know, obviously through the eyes of our employees Kendra. I'm not, I'm really passionate about our business. I'm passionate about how happy our product makes our customers. And the little nuances that I learn from, you know, my, my wife will see something or my daughters will see something. What they like, what they don't like, what their friends are wearing. Like they're the best sounding boards that I have. You know, obviously our employees are amazing. But I mean, my 16 year old daughter, like, she's doing things on social media and seeing things that I would never, as a 47 year old guy, would never understand that, right? So she's, she's really helping shape my perspective on things. So I, you know, I'm very passionate about our customer, really passionate about our business, about our employees. Yeah, I don't wear women's jewelry. So it's hard for me to, to be the customer perspective, but I get to see it through others' lenses, which I think is good. And we make, we have a men's line called Scott Brothers, which was modeled after Kendra's sons who were, to varying degrees involved in the business. But it's a nice little business. Never going to be the cornerstone of what we do. But I think it's important because almost around the holidays, upwards of 40% of our customers are male. And the best thing about Kendra's guy, and this is one of the reasons why she started the company 23 years ago was years ago when you'd walk into a jewelry store when she first opened the business. It was very intimidating. You know, you'd walk, and especially for somebody like me, I don't know how you grew up, and didn't have any money. I wanted to buy my, you know, my girlfriend something and like you walk in and everything's under case. People are wearing white gloves. You're judged. Like it was just awful. So at Kendra's Scott, you walk into one of our stores. Everything's top of counter. You walk in, we'll offer you a water or beer or glass of champagne. We encourage people to be friendly and warm. And it's just, it's a much better environment from that perspective and then from a value proposition perspective. The average guy can walk in one of our stores by, you know, every woman in his life something or anybody that wears our jewelry something and walk out and not going to break the bank and get a really high quality item. And the fact that our business is rooted in philanthropy and the large majority of what we do from a give back perspective goes to help and change people's lives. I mean, it's, it's awesome. But anyway, sorry, long we didn't answer your question. Not super passionate about women's jewelry perspective, but I'm very passionate about what we're doing and how we're changing lives and the impact we make through women's jewelry in our customers lives. I am curious about your daughters as well as maybe your wife or other women in your life. How influential are they in like product design or how often does their feedback pop up in a meeting with your exact team or with the products or however the it works to come up with something new. I am fascinated by it behind the scenes there. Yeah, I'd say that they, they're influential for sure. I mean, at the end of the day, one of our mantras here and operating principles is the customers are boss. Like at the end of the day, she and he signed our paycheck. So whether that customer is my mom, my wife, my daughters, Kendra's mom, Kendra's friends, my aunt who lives in Boca, like they're all the customer, right? So I think I'm lucky that my wife does have close relationships with a lot of the employees here. She talks to Colleen who runs our retail business constantly and Aaron who runs our merchandising business very often. So like she's giving her point of view, but also I don't want to be and I never want to be somebody. It's like jamming anything down somebody's throat and being like, oh, my wife said this or my daughter said this. I want to temper it because I do understand that I think there's some level of unfairness that goes along with that because my family said something. So I try to mitigate it as best as possible, but they have great perspectives on things. But so does every customer. We listen a lot to our customers and then we launch new categories, whether it's fragrance or eyewear or Scott brothers for yellow roads or collaborations at Wrangler, like we asked the customer what they want from us. And I think the old days of Steve Jobs said, you tell the customer what they're going to want, like those days probably don't exist much anymore where customer has a much larger voice than they used to years ago and they want to be a part of companies that have purpose, they want to understand what goes behind things before they buy it. And I feel like we're at the center of that for a lot of reasons. So yeah, I mean, my family offers their point of view, but in a very respectful way. You mentioned the past few years, it's just been killing just absolutely crushing. And now maybe, I don't know, we'll see. Maybe it's going to be a little tougher. I'm curious about looking at the current state of the business and you, part of your job as a CEO is to be the visionary, to look forward to try to see around corners, right? All really hard things to do. What does it look like currently and what does it look like moving forward your vision, right? You're a goal setter. You like to go after it and get it and win. What's it looking like moving forward for you guys? Yeah, so I mean, looking ahead is no different than how we look behind it. We're focused on maintaining a culture that's filled with continuous learning, right? Within our organization, we want to speak to each other. We want to hear from our customers. I don't have all the answers clearly. So I think we want to create and we've created, I hope, an environment here where answers are coming from all throughout the organization. I do think it's my job and obligation to bring a level of comfort and calmness when the seas are choppy. I use the analogy sometimes amongst our leadership group of, you know, if my eight year old came in my room during a thunder and lightning storm, my wife and I were like, "Cowering in the corner like crying," he'd freak out, right? And we're in a thunderstorm right now to some degree. But you know, when he comes in the room at night, when there's a thunderstorm, like there's a reassurance of like, "We're going to be okay. The house isn't going to get struck by lightning. We're going to be okay. We got this. Don't worry about it." I think right now, similarly through COVID, I want to make sure that I'm overcommunicating with the organization, letting people know like, "Look, there's a lot of potential headwinds out there. We've seen these things before. We have a handle on it to the best that we can." And we're going to be able to just control the things that we can control. I can't control, you know, what happens in Washington, D.C. I can't control what happens in other countries. I can control this. And if everybody's doing that, focusing on the things that we can control and creating a great environment for one another here to be seen and heard and creating great environment in our retail stores with our customers, like we're probably going to be more successful. I do think when there's disruption, it creates massive amounts of opportunity for those that are courageous enough to try. And we will do that and we will create opportunity and we will continue to be successful. It's, I wish it was a little bit easier as much as we talked earlier about like, you know, it's hard to just, you know, eat the oranges and go out there and play the game. We ended up at 42. It'd be nice to navigate lead a company through a little bit easier waters. I mean, it's been nothing but turbulence since I've taken over here and I'm very proud of the team and the results we've had in spite of that turbulence. We've been an outlier about liars in the consumer business. And I think we'll get through this better than most and continue to lead with heart and compassion and create connections with our customers and try to do it the right way. You're not going to know what to do when the C's are calm, dude. I feel like, what are you going to do? It's not going to be as interesting. Well, what I'll do is I'll go, I'll go, I'll retire and go teach and coach. I guess my dad will be what I do. Love it. One more question, Tom. I'm curious. So, I was thinking of this story. You told about yourself, you know, when you finished up playing baseball and I was saying the same way. I didn't, I didn't even know what an internship was. Honestly, I just was working out and going to summer school and getting ready for the next football season. And so, let's say you're talking to that person who is now a recent college graduate and they want to leave a dent in the world, like in a positive way. They're good human. They want to do good things in the world, but they're kind of lost. They don't really know what to do or where they're headed. What are some general pieces of life/career advice you'd give to that person? Yeah. So, I do, I mentioned kind of ingest, but I'm serious. I do love teaching and coaching. I do a lot of it. I spend a lot of time with kids in college right now because I feel like there's opportunities there for people to top their language because I wish, would it make my life a little bit easier? I'm proud of the things I've done, but it would have been nicer to have a little bit of a, you know, a Sherpa along the way, if you will. A couple of things to tell people is like, wake up early. Like, you know, and I wake up, you know, 4.30, 5 o'clock. It's kind of an average day for me, whether I go to bed at 3.30 or, you know, 9 p.m. I think when you get a head start on the day and you start, you start, I tell my kids that I have a joke, like my daughter Grace will call me and be like, "What are you doing today?" I'm like, "I'm beating Monday." You know, I got a head start on Monday. So, I feel like that, that maniacal kind of way of thinking is really important and most people don't do that. And I think it's really hard for young people, Ryan, to be courageous. You know, people will ask me, like, "Do I have imposter syndrome?" I'm like, "Yeah, 100 percent." Like, I come on your podcast and like, "Why does anybody want to hear from me?" Every time I do a public speaking, this thing, anytime, I'm talking to students, like, I always will feel that way. And it's okay, you know, and I think that that's normal. And I think young people should feel empowered and courageous because their voices matter. I would argue more than mine does because they're the future and I'm the current in the past, right? So, I really rely on what that constituency of people are thinking and saying and how they're seeing the world because that's where this business needs to go. Like, we're not thinking, you know, I don't think in year increments from a business perspective, we're thinking decades out. Where do we want to be 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now? Like, how do we want to set up our business today to be successful? You know, when I'm not even here anymore. And that's a founder mentality and I understand that because that's all I've ever done. But like, that's how kids should feel empowered by that, not scared. And I remember how I felt. I was scared, you know, to death. And I mitigated that by my athlete mentality, which was hungry. And I think like for those that don't place forward, like, you can still think that way. But I think young people should be courageous, unafraid to fail. And you've got the reality is you've got really 10 years from the time you, if you go to college, if you graduate college till time you're about 30 to just f up the whole time. You can just nothing but make mistakes as long as you're learning along the way. And then I think as you get into your late 20s or early 30s, that's when you got to start making some hay. So give yourself a break, right? And like, just try action action, try things, say things, speak up. Like, I think that makes a big, big difference. And it separates you. Like too many other people are bashful and wall flowers at that age. And like the ones that stand out really stand out. Love it. Tom, thank you so much, man. I'm a big fan of Kendra Scott, your company. And now you, I appreciate you sharing so much. And I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me, Ron. I appreciate it. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned. There's great conversation with Kendra Scott CEO, Tom Nolan, a few takeaways from my notes. Average players want to be left alone. Good players want some coaching. Great players want the truth. Think about that when you're hiring, when you're coaching, when you're developing and building your team and your culture. Then I really appreciate it, Tom's honesty when it came to work life balance. He said it is not the company's job to give work life balance to someone. And he is not balanced. He's on 24/7. His family realizes this and they know it and they support him. It was refreshing to hear the real raw honest truth about this from someone who was running a company. And as Dr. Julie Gernard told me on episode 538, quote, "People will tell you in books that you have to live a balanced life. But if we are completely honest, almost all great things are born from periods of imbalance." And then make the most of your 2% moments. 98% of the time life is just happening. But every once in a while, you'll have those 2% opportunities like when he met his wife or interviewed with Kendra Scott. It's on us as leaders to be ready to make the most of those 2% moments. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, "Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Tom Lohan. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that and you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcast and you subscribe to the show and you're right. He thought for you and you're rated hopefully 5 stars and by doing all of that, you give me an opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis and for that I will forever be grateful." Thank you so so much. Talk to you soon. Come in.