To Transform or not Transform, that is the question!

[Music] Good morning and welcome to Have You Raise A Ticket. How are you doing Mr Man? I'm good as ever the sun is shining. The IT is working. Just? Look, I didn't realise the cable wasn't plugged in, it wasn't my fault. Did you raise a ticket? No, no. I just got the producer David to tell me to plug my microphone in. Wasn't my fault. No, I did raise a ticket this week. What did you do, rum? I didn't know. I wanted to visit on my work laptop for the work I was doing for a certain council. And so I had to go through the G process. I was so annoyed. I was so annoyed. That was like, I had to put the cost center in and everything and I'm like, "Ugh, look, it was approved." But there we are. Do as I say, not as I do. I know, it was a nightmare. Did anything exciting this week, Mr Man? I have been taking a little break because my roles are changing. I'll be moving out of London and into one of our counties that are going through something very exciting. You may have heard of it. I'll be working with Cambridgeers and be going to May. I'm really looking forward to it. There's a real challenge for the local government. I hope we get into that this week with our guests. Who have we got this week? This week we've got Nadira who is saying, "Chef executive of soccer team, which is the society of IT managers, it sounds more boring than it really is." They're actually kind of cool. That's why we're here. Sam Collins is an assistant director for DDA and he's at the city of London. Whenever we talk about London, we always go, "They should do the local councils and the city." You can tell us why the city is different because they do have an interesting brief. Apart from having a glamorous ceremonial mayor and the room police force, which he does like to rob our nose into, they do some other reenie bonkers stuff, which actually I'd like to explore with him. I think we sparked some controversy last time out, Joe, because I've had people come up to me in the pub and literally just exclaim, "Garaboldy is the best biscuit." Oh no, I do like a garaboldy. You know what? Everyone's right. If you like that biscuit, you like your biscuit. You crack on. I do like a dunk. I do like a dunk. Oh, who doesn't look? But you've got to time it right. Otherwise, you're just sinking into the bottom, aren't you? And then you've got lumpity. And that's just all bad. All bad. lumpity is bad. But what baffles me is there are research papers on this, like, "Scientists." And you always think, "Is that an April Fool?" It's not. The people are paid to research on how long one ought to hold one's biscuit in one's tea. Can you think of anything more British than an entire research paper on dunking biscuits? We are world leaders in this. And we should lean into it. Yeah. Well, if we done that, it's incredibly British. I can't think of anything at the moment. Real, organized local government again. Again. Again. Again. Again. Again. Again. But you're benefiting from it. You're off to Cambridgeer. I know, nice. It's very exciting time for everyone who's there. They had a really good chief executive in the city. It's quite a forward thinking place, isn't it? Yeah. And there's lots of work going on in all the districts, north and south of the county. There are six districts that are still waiting for their decision at this time. We're recording in late April. Hopefully by summer we'll know the direction of travel and we'll know how we can all work together and actually give some really interesting, valuable change for the residents. We are recording pre-election, so I'm still after that gig, so hopefully. I think the dearest husband's actually a monitoring officer. Maybe I'll try him. He's quite nice. He's definitely worthwhile. It's very exciting, really interesting. You get a little bit tetchier around about three o'clock in the morning, but that's when you need that extra cup of tea. And that is where biscuit research is essential. No, that is when you need your sweeties. I was at Lambeth the last general and the chief exec came round with a hairy bow for us all, which quite frankly was very welcome. We should say other sweets are available. We should also say not all council's count over night. I think Harry Gastin could do a day count. Are they? I didn't. I know Kensington and Chelsea doing a night count, and they're fiercely proud of it. Night counts, they just want it's about. Now, I mean, that's we have the proper spirit of a local election. Exactly. Yeah, well, the day count, not knowing the results for three days later. Anyway, let's get into this. Let's welcome our guests. Oh, my goodness. I'm so excited. We've got two of my favourites on again today. We have Nadira who's saying hello. Who are you? Where you from? Over to Nadira. Hello, Joe. Lovely to be here. I am the chief executive at Socrates. For those of you who don't know, we are the society for. Technology for I've done it wrong, Joe. Information technology modernisation apologies. The nervousness and the angst of that introduction. We work with digital leaders across public sector. So very much in that digital data technology space. Really helping them respond to the challenges that they're seeing. Financial constraints increase in demand. What have you? So how do we use these capabilities really to help transform local public services, equip people with the appropriate skills and capabilities and really improve those outcomes for people and communities across place? You are the Godress of all IT. By the way, I called you the Society of IT managers in my intro. So you can tell me off when I next to you. I absolutely will, because that's why it threw me at the beginning. We've been through a transformation journey, Joe. So 40 years plus this year we're celebrating our anniversary. And we have transitioned from the Society of IT managers and management to what we currently are a far more inclusive, diverse, really focused on the needs of the communities and the people that we serve, the members that we serve. So definitely tell you off the next time I see you without a doubt. I know I'll take it on the show. I should, I should, I should, I should, I don't know. You can tell her off now. We don't mind. No, I think I'll have to do it privately, darren. Sorry. This deserves, you know, telling off properly. And one of the anomalies of London, Sam Collins, who's assistant director, do the Auroone and Omni, because we always go 32 plus the city. So why do we say plus the city, Sam Collins, over to you, say hello at the interview. So just to be clear, you're saying the corporation and anomaly, not me, right? No. Okay. You're on a lovely note. Yeah, good morning. Thank you very much for having me. Sam Collins, I'm the assistant director for digital and data at the City of London Corporation. And we can, we can get into the detail of who we are, what we do now, or we can say that one for the next question. Please do, because I think it's really cool what you guys do. Because, don't you, is this something like crocodiles at the airport? Don't you look after them? I'm just making up in my head. So, okay. So one of our many services is the Heathrow Animal Reception Centre. So we, yeah, we transport animals through Heathrow. Right. So making, you know, I've had colleagues out there, their satin reception having a conversation and a tiger walks through. So yeah, that's definitely a thing. Right. But yes, so, okay, the corporation, over 800 years old, are liberties and customs are enshrined in the Magna Carta. No. Yes, yes. That is bonkers. You know, we predate Parliament. So the parliamentary system of governance was based on ours, not the other way around, you know, just to be clear. Great. With the proper city unlike, you know, Westminster. But yeah, so we are, we are local authority. We are a police authority. We report health authority. We are the sole trustee of many of our charities. So the City Bridge Foundation, a major grant given authority in London. Also our natural environment charities. And we're also a corporation as well. So it's a weird and wonderful and fantastic place to work. I love that. I was good at 40 years, sorry, Joe. I thought we'd done well at Socketin for 40 years. But when you compare against the 800, I think I haven't got much of a good new story there. So I think you've beaten our records with that shadow of a doubt. One more thing I'd add to that. We are also the reigning Olympic champions for the tug of war. No. So in 1920 and to work Olympics, the City London police team was sent to represent the country and they won the gold. So there we go. How many gold medals has Socketin got in the deer? Well, see, I think Sam is just putting me to shave. No gold medals. Not yet. Not yet. Not yet, Sam. You're absolutely right. Not yet. but something that we can all aspire to without a shadow of a doubt. So this is perfect. So this is perfect. Do you do the IT support for the Tigers, Sam? Um, personally, no. Um, but, you know, if the need arose, it would come our way, certainly. You try telling a tiger, have you raised a ticket? No, not going to work. Really not, really. And do you raise tickets? I had to raise one this week. I was sulking about it. Do you raise a ticket, Adira? I do. I do. You're such a headgoat from not raising. I know and, and I did for a while, Joe, I did. Can you just do me a favor? I need this, please. That's how trying to call in some of these privileges, but we have put some really robust processes in place. So I do have to be a good girl, Joe. What can I do? What can I do? But it works. Still works swimmingly. Mr Collins, do you raise the ticket? Do you know, Joe, I always do. I was there. Now, tell you the way, it's a serious and slightly boring answer. But ultimately, you've got to try your own dog food, right? So if you're not using your own processes, you are already saying that they're not up to scratch. So absolutely, I use my own processes, that I make sure they work. And if I get a bad experience, then it gives me something to work on, doesn't it? I always go with your own champagne, so. Yeah, it's a better visual, isn't it? Yeah. Definitely. OK, transformation. When we hear transformation, what do we think? What do people think? I don't know. Let's start with you, Sam. What do people think when they hear the lovely word transformation? Well, my first thought is, really. It is. It's one of those most overused terms. We've been transforming into local government for, well, forever, haven't we? And it even worse digital transformation. And we've all been part of many, many different programmes. Some of them aren't very transformational. So they're wrongly labelled. Some of them are transformational, but they don't land. Yeah, that's kind of my-- this sort of sinking feeling is my first reaction to it, unfortunately. They're dearer. And yet. And yet, it's something people have become accustomed to. The labels. And so even though you want to move away from transformation, digital transformation, Sam, as you're saying, they have become so ingrained in people's psyche that they absolutely can relate to it and know what we're trying to articulate. I do think it's an overrated word like "You suggest, Sam." And typically, for me, my experience tells me, it's often shifting chairs in the Titanic, deck chairs in the Titanic. You know, it's, what can we do to use the current broken process, throw a little bit of technology or digital ways of working to it, try and shoehorn it in and say we've transformed. And so, therefore, when we talk about it being overrated, people have become a little bit accustomed to, or it'll probably be a little bit of a change, we may not seem much difference. And actually, I know when that word comes up, there may be a need for me to be a little bit anxious and concerned, and I don't know what to really think. So, I think it's interesting how we have really kind of developed our thinking about transformation and what it may or may not mean. No, don't. We're going to carry on exploring that a little bit further in a minute. But for me, deck chairs on the Titanic. The dearer, I completely agree, Sam, with you exactly. It has become almost a continuing word. And people still think there's going to be an outcome at the end of transformation. It's constant. It is constant. And everyone looks at digital now, because there's nothing that we do in local government that hasn't got a digital element. And I think you're exactly right, Nidira. What people are trying to do is find those things that aren't digital right now and put them on a computer. That isn't transformation. That's automation. Transformation is really holding the mirror up to yourself, finding out what is fit for purpose. Before you even touch the computer, I completely agree. And then we should be supporting and enabling and giving those tools. And that's always the challenge for me. I don't like the phrase digital transformation, because it all is. And I prefer the word change, because that gives energy to where we're going. And it doesn't stop. But that change creates tension, that Kubla Ross curve of depression and anxiety, exactly as you said. And then acceptance, but that's a long way down there. How do you kind of see that as you go through changing your different organization, Sam, with you, with City London, all the work I know you're doing? But then Nidira, as you look into organizations and support them, how do you see that? How does it manifest itself, Sam? Come to you first, if that's all right. Yeah, no, thanks. And I guess just to pick up on my last comment, just because my starting point is transformation, doesn't mean that you throw in the towel. I use it as motivation to do things differently, right? And there are lots of good change models out there. You mentioned Kubla Ross, the Sarah Curve, the Pro-Sci approach. It's all good stuff. But for me, I think as a senior manager as a leader, it's just about treating people as human beings and being empathetic to them. So I'm sure everyone on this call has been through those sorts of change programs, has been restructors, been put at risk, could be an ask to use a new piece of technology. You don't necessarily want to use. And I think it's really important to use all of that experience to mold and shape your approach to delivering change yourself. And for me, it's just about being really, really human, communicating the right way, communicating at the right time, being really honest with people, was honest as you can be at that point. Don't treat people as stupid, because people aren't stupid. From the chief exec right down, people aren't stupid. They kind of know what's going on. People in local government and public sector are very used to change and the drivers behind the change. So yeah, just be really upfront and honest with people. I think that's the main one for me. Yeah. Thank you, sir. I couldn't agree with you more. I couldn't agree with you more, sir. But Darren, I'm going to take it back to the point where, transformation, it being a very common phrase and adopted openly thinking about the things that we've described in terms of, we're going to implement a new system or we're going to fine tune a process or whatever it may be. I think the point that I want to make as a start off is, what is the problem we're trying to fix? What we tend to overlook repeatedly, I think. And this is why it's so, so important to bring the business into your conversations right from the outset, whether it's children's services, region, planning, social care. What is the problem we're trying to fix? What is it that we're trying to improve? What isn't working as effectively and well? And therefore, what does the change associated with achieving better outcomes look like? And I think it's our collective responsibility across organisations and certainly the work that Socketim does with the councils and wider organisations that it works with. We help to articulate what that problem statement is. What is it that we're trying to fix? First, before we dive into, we've got some fancy tech here. We've seen this really new thing. It's a great fad. Let's bring it in and see what we can do with it. Flip it on its head. Once you've articulated that ambition, bring people on, board through a collective understanding of what that vision is. Because unless you've got that, how can you implement the change that you want to when the communication to the misfracture so that they haven't really understood the need for that change in the first place? So for me, it's about creating that cohesive vision. Those people coming together, understanding, what are we trying to do collectively here? So the business articulating its need, those who are able to provide those solutions coming together in effect, to brainstorm and think about what we can do to deliver against that? And then of course, it's all the bits that Sam said. How do we energize and create momentum with the people who are going to, one, be articulating what that change is, and those that are going to help deliver against that change across the board, and then creating those teams with the appropriate SME input, with the appropriate expertise, perhaps, implemented externally, whatever that may look like, to really think about what we're going to do, how we're going to do it, over what period of time, what are the priorities, and what does good look like? Because unless we stipulate what good looks like, people are working to their own aspirations, right? Repeatedly. So that's my kind of experience. I think it's going to be interesting to unpick some of these in a little bit more detail. No, I have a question, because I've seen this a number of times, and I've done it myself. Adoption. So once you use the word as well. So once we sort of done the transformation a bit, it's that everyday behaviour, the people who are affected by the change, that everyday behaviour that really does need to be something different to what it was in the past. So how do we get people to that? How do we actually get them to adopt the behaviours and the processes that say as pot of our desire? How do you do that, Nadira? So I think, Joe, it goes back to having them involved right from the get-go, right? If they are helping to co-design, co-design what good looks like? What's the success criteria here? We often overlook those kind of things, I think, Joe. We're not very clear about if we achieve this and this, they're the priorities, then this. We've achieved successful change and the outcomes we've set out to achieve. They help co-design that. They help determine what good looks like. So you get them involved right at the get-go. You help articulate ideas in the room. Everybody has a good idea, especially when you've said, "This is the direction of travel." I often find, Joe, that people in leadership positions are scared of ideas. They don't really want them to be forthcoming. They give it lip service, but they don't really want people to come forward and say, "You know what? We can do that differently." The other thing is, sometimes we get stuck in the kind of hierarchical structures, so people in the ground really don't know what they're talking about. Actually, they do. They do. They stay in-day out, who is closer to the detail than the people delivering the services, interacting with customers, kind of having a real feel for where the issues or the gaps may be in a process. They do. Let them come forward, share what they think is going to work. Bring the ideas on, think about the priorities. How do we want to implement what we've said we want to do? Start with defining what a minimum viable product may look like. I know you will all know that we all want to achieve Nivana and that kind of, I don't know, platinum, outcome. Well, actually, what we want to do is, with the input from the teams that we're working with, what does something that reflects that MVP, what good looks like, look like? And once we've tested that, how do we then progress? So, kind of agile ways of working. I didn't want to use agile, but small sprints that demonstrate what we want to achieve. Should a transformation be going away? Should a demo transformation, digital adoption, agile sprints? Yeah, I think it is really about engagement right from the get go engagement should have been on those ideas free flowing. Yeah, totally. So, yeah, I suppose in my head, I'm very interested in the idea of moving away from digital transformation and towards digital evolution. There's another one for you being go card. So digital evolution, it's about building the capability or the organizational muscle, as I like to use that term to not only implement the thing, but also drive that adoption and drive the value out of the product. So, we're doing that around our load code solutions at the corporation. We're doing that around our data platform. We're doing it around our adoption of AI at the moment as well. So, rather than doing that kind of fixed transformation plan with a start date and end date, it's about building capability, having the skills in house and accepting that we're starting here and the first three months might look like this, but actually as the organisation continues to evolve, our programme of work, our focus will evolve as well. Another one for your bingo card, but we talk about being in a vuka world and volatile and certain chaotic and biguse. It's always about that. It's the corporation, I think, but it definitely feels like that at the moment, right? So, for me, we've got those capabilities, we've got that organizational muscle. We're now in a really good place to respond to those challenges the organisation are facing, the problems that they come to us with. And it's great because it's focused on adoption and it kind of happens automatically when you kind of turn it on its head rather than implementing a thing, it's about building that capability and working with the organisation going forwards. I was going to say I really like that phrase of organizational muscle because I don't believe digital is just one team, but especially as we're looking at the organisation and the breadth of it, trying to train those processes into digital processes. It's not just a piece of paper with a flowchart on it, thrown at an IT team. We need to encourage and build that organisation on knowledge of digital. And I think you're exactly right, Sam. And I think that's where some of the challenge comes. I think we've all heard that AI is the answer. Yeah, but what is the question? And that comes to your point, Nadira. What do we want to change as an organisation? Not what is the technology we want to adopt? Absolutely. The only other point I was going to make and I was going to ask Sam the question, that organisation or capability, adoption in particular, you know, change champions, people who are conversant with both, you know, the use of these capabilities, but also then, you know, familiar with the type of change that we're trying to implement. I think digital champions have worked really, really effectively and well, where they energise and build some of that momentum to enable people to ask questions, if they're unsure and feeling nervous about, you know, what the actual implementation may achieve, what systems have been made available to them, whatever the breadth of consideration may be. But those digital champions certainly become the force multipliers, don't they, of the organisation to create that kind of organisation or muscle, Sam, that you reference. So it's really good to make better use of those people who are willing and capable of going above the call of duty in their roles, specifically, as those champions. Well, regarding this today, meta-announce, they were getting rid of 8, getting rid of, oh no, shouldn't it use that phrase, 8,000 people were being redundant due to the introduction of AI. That is a fear. How do you overcome that with your colleagues and the people on the ground, the people who are being transformed, they're just being part of the processes? How do you deal with that? Is an AI going to take my job, though, Nadeira? And so at the moment, Joe, I think, you know, depending on the maturity of the organisation, certainly that councils we're working with, you can imagine it's all the way from dipping to in water, really trying to understand what AI can or can't do all the way through to Derby City Council, wholesale adoption of AI in terms of a platform improved. Don't they have processes? They've got their own bot. Haven't they? They've got their own. Darcy. Darcy! Darcy! Welcome, Sam. There you go. In fact, I was trying to get hold of somebody yesterday in a rang Darcy and heard it first hand. So I've seen lots of demos, but actually used it for the first time yesterday. But. You know, I didn't tell you that. So I did. I did. That was. It was interesting, really, really interesting. So in a demo on. Our president's conference actually lost you if I'm going to say fantastic. So you've got the maturity of organisations playing into the mix. There is some narrative around. It's going to take my job. But actually what I think I am more likely to say, AI is not going to take your job. But somebody who knows how to use AI will certainly be in a better position to take your job. So it's very much around creating opportunities for people to upskill themselves to really understand what AI can't do. So from an individual point of view, it's that. From an organisational point of view, as I've said, We're seeing a broad spectrum of responses from those who are using it to really help from minute-taking and making life for, for example, social workers far more easier through the use of AI all the way through to, as I've said, at Derby where key processes, debt management, social care, and number of others have been refined through the use of AI. But there is a bigger thing here, isn't there, which is around the ethical use and deployment of AI. So the appropriate measures, governance, considerations that we absolutely need to bear in mind and bring into the mix, because without that, you know, safeguarding or guardrails in place, whether it's, as I've said, the governance or AI policy, the appropriate use of these emerging technologies AI in particular. And that's where some organisations are feeling really quite uncomfortable. What does it actually mean? What do we expose ourselves to if used in adequately and appropriately? What kind of thing are you seeing in that kind of adoption space, Sam, for the people on the ground who are concerned around the usage of AI, not just the will it take my job, or do I have a role if AI is doing it, even going to the other side of it, is it ethical? Is it appropriate? Have we got the right partners in place to deliver? What are you seeing at City? Yes, so City has very much a Microsoft house. We've grabbed hold of Copilot, ruptured about 400 licenses now, about 12% the organisation. And, you know, the reason we've gone with Copilot, you know, AI and guardrails, I won't get into the detail around that, but, you know, I'm very clear with people at the moment. It's very much about a learning process for the organisation. You know, like you, we've had people come into us, go, you know, we really need to use AI. Okay, do you like it? What do you need to use it for? What problem are you trying to solve? Well, I don't know, but I feel like I should be using it. So, I'm really clear with people, you know, we, it's about learning right now. And part of that is understanding the kind of ethical considerations. I think to pick up on what Nadira was saying, something my, my director says very, very frequently, you know, calculators didn't, didn't replace accountants, accountants with calculators, replaced accountants without calculators. And I think that's, that's very much kind of where we are at the moment. I think. Oh, I like that. Oh, yeah, I know. Is that Zaki? Yeah, Zaki, yeah, I know. I like that one too. Did a good one. Yeah. But, but, but, but what we're seeing at the moment, you know, well, okay, so I think we will get to a point at some point in the future, where we need to have some serious conversations around some of those more kind of admin heavy, mean, you know, roles within the organization. There, there might be some difficult decisions around really skilling and changing those roles. But, you know, what we're seeing at the moment is a huge amount of excitement around AI that we are able to do things that we've never been able to do before. So, yesterday I found myself in a, a Ford workshop talking to our internal Ford manager. And he was talking about, you know, some of the challenges they have around big data and that they get all this data in from these different platforms. But, but how and over they supposed to process all of that. And there's me and my sick getting very excited going, well, we've got, we've got a platform over here. And we're actually going to be doing a Pan London proof of concept with Microsoft around how we can support London Ford teams with grabbing hold of some of that data. And it's stuff like that. So let's clarify that. A Pan London fraud thing. So that means you're going to invite all your colleagues in, doesn't it? Some of them not all. Some of them, yeah. Okay. Now, and yeah, some London local authorities have expressed an interest. I love that. But I love it when we collaborate. It's really exciting because, you know, now my life is fabric and copiant, everything at the moment. And, you know, we didn't, we didn't have it two years ago, but we've got it now. So, you know, last time they were looking at solutions for, for fraud. It was a very different place. But now we've got these fantastic capabilities. And, you know, when I put in fabric, I say, I, my team implemented fabric 18 months ago, I didn't know I was going to be having a conversation around Pan London fraud right now. But we've got this capability now. And I'm quite excited, but as you can see. No, that comes across. And this is why we wanted, Joe and I wanted to do this podcast. We wanted to show people that excitement about what we can actually change and transform in an organization. I'm going to pick you up on one point, no Sam. You try and take Excel out the hands of an accountant. You watch how quickly they turn. I'm not a miracle worker, right? I think that's the truth. Oh, I love macros. No, no. Back, back. We have so much change going on in our individual organizations as a sector, if we look at LGR that's coming. That's a lot of change on top of all of the other change that we've already got going on, replacement of systems, introduction of AI and all of that stuff we want to drive towards. How do we protect the people doing that change, that transformation from burning out? What could we do as leaders in this sector to really keep people moving on that journey, feeling engaged, but not using up all of their energy? I think this is a really interesting dynamic, Darren. Increasingly, we're talking to our members and people on the ground. It's interesting how every year you hear how busy people are and how difficult and complex the circumstances are. But just listening to what you've described, because it is the layers of an onion, isn't it? It's all of these things. Keeping your lights on, as well as all of the kind of change that you've described. Sam, you're in a good place at the moment where London hasn't directly been impacted. At least you haven't got the privileges of the LGR. Certainly the colleagues that we're speaking to, the more recent announcement of Essex or Norfolk. Our president Kurt Freirey, who is the CTO at Norfolk, the work that he's doing, he's done leading into the preparation for LGR with the announcement now in terms of what the direction of travel is going to be. Can you imagine doing all of that kind of BAU activity as well as focusing on this and actually the outcome is different to what he's envisaged. So now redoing the work with the announcement of the outcome. I think it's really important for people to prioritise the work, right? We've got to do it in bite-sized chunks, we've got to prioritise it. As leaders, I think it's really important to keep those information exchanges open and alive. What are we doing? What are the priorities? What can slip down that list a little bit more? So something that gives them some encouragement that not everything needs to be done all at the same time, not all of these plates need spinning, spinning all at the same time. I think it's really important for leaders and people now working in the sector to find time where they can just down-tools. Think about their own personal health and wellbeing. It's really, really important and certainly the messages that I give to my staff, to the people that we work with, find that time and actually it's all very well giving the messages and I can be a culprit in both sides. I do work when it's convenient for me so that might be out of hours, but also if I can take the opportunity to nip to the gym and do that during the day and demonstrate that actually I am taking a little bit of time out because I just need to or go out for a walk or whatever it may be, really, really important. Come together in teams, do things where you're having conversations about things that interest you, the things that keep you awake at night, the things that are troubling you, whatever it may be, but that cohesive team meeting on a regular basis allows people to come together, seek counselling, counselling, but also share and have some fun and whatever it may be. So, down to your point around, how do we make this easier for them? It is about working hard but playing hard. So I live a terrible example of that. I live a tangible example. So you go to the gym? I go to the gym, definitely. I do go to the gym, I'll do the gym. Similarly, Joe, take a break, take a break during the day, do the things that interest you, take your dog for a walk, most of the socket and staff and dog lovers, got some cat lovers, but to Darren's point about his puppy, they're all dog lovers. I feel scared of dogs, but there you go. That's another story and we haven't got time to discuss that now. We can do it. We can talk, do whatever interests you. A number of them have their own hobbies, whatever it may be, but it's really critical We're not just glued to the screen and increasingly post COVID where people are working from home. I can go for 8.30 in the morning before that to have gone 5.6 o'clock not getting up and there are times when I've said the end of the day look I'm gonna go for a walk need to refresh myself and come back um I don't even I don't expect me to work at the weekends. I don't expect them to work in the evening I may have to that's fine and I make it very clear that I may have to or I want to or whatever it may be but I strictly encourage people not to kind of blur those work and personal times what about you Sam tangible example of how you give everyone a break do you go and talk to the tigers um not not so much I'm allergic to animals generally I'm not gonna be first no yeah sorry so I'm not I'm not a dog lover no no cats and dogs and house rabbits and all that sort of stuff yeah the alligators are fine we notice yeah I don't have one of those but um it's it's a Bible option but just don't tell much of them they are pushing hard for a pet right now um yeah so I think often people look at the corporations they're well you know you've got you've got loads of resources you've got loads of money you've got loads of money and the reality is I mean as an organization we're asset asset rich cash pool but also the ambition scales with the resources available right and Ian Thomas our town clerk and and CEO talks about becoming a world class organization so you know no pressure on the on the digital and technology um but you can't be you can't be world class everything you know even the the top organizations in the world are world class everything so organizationally we need to make some really difficult decisions around well where how are we going to be world class what does that actually mean for us and do we have the resources available to to be world class but um on a more kind of local level for me and we support both the core corporation family but also the police and the demands on my team are significant and you know often with a blue light service there's an expectation that we're going to drop everything and and focus on that and that that can't be the reality all the time so you know when we have um requests coming in for new projects we have to have a very robust prioritization approach and you know it's something that I constantly reinforced with my team is just because someone comes in and they says they want something as soon as possible doesn't mean that we can always do that because we would we would kill ourselves trying to do that um that that there was always that person's a chief executive or a chief constable of police force with his uniform on it's quite hard to say no to him it is hard to say no but I mean ultimately you know I have I have these this amount of capacity at my disposal this is what we're currently working on this is this is the list of projects is the prioritization so if you're telling me that yours goes to the top of the pile what needs to come off that one. What's slipping? What's slipping? Yeah we can't do everything or you give me more more resources and you know that's that's where we need to be because otherwise you've got everyone working 24/7 because you know we can all work 24/7 and there still be more work to do so and you know as a as a senior manager I'm very clear with my team like if you don't want to have that difficult conversation get me in the room and I'll have that difficult conversation you know I'm I'm happy to be that unpopular person it comes with a territory um and often they take me up on the offer and often they'll they'll go and have that conversation themselves but you know I think you need to be visible and and happy to have those robust challenging conversations back with people to to show people that you are looking out for them you are you are protecting them and they don't need to bend over backwards to meet everything that's coming their way because that's just not possible Darren it's time for your round. Oh now if you've listened to the podcast you would know there's a very exciting part that comes up that causes controversy and we're going to do it again. This is the section of the show we like to call IT people are people too. I'm going to ask you. I'm thinking there's a jingle coming I'm thinking there's a jingle. Okay I don't think all of them are people by the way I think most of them are. Dawson's strange ones. There are some strange ones. Yeah please no dear reader that I didn't say that that was Sam. So quick fire round we're going to take turns asking you questions there are no prizes involved so you're not going to take take home the tiger Sam are we ready fingers on buzzer. I've already got tiger it's fine. Yeah good coming to you Nadeira first question when was the last time you went on a roller coaster. Oh gosh ages ago a few years a while have you been on one Nadeira. Yes I have. I just think because I've got older Joe. Yeah scares the bleep out of me and yes and the stomach turns and the head goes so I've refrained more recently Joe. Sorry. As as we mature I suspect we get less desire to be turned upside down and thrown around at about some hours an hour. Sam coming to you do you know how to wire a plug. Yeah he does. I mean yes I do but my father-in-law's electrician by trade so you know we stay in our lanes. Good good good. That's good politics. I saw Hazelaptop. There you go. Do I type it? Which brings me to my next question for Nadeira when was the last time you said to someone have you tried rebooting it. We say that quite regularly Darren I can't remember exactly but you know I've had more trouble with my laptop which has just been replaced in the last two weeks but that was a very common phraseology turn it off turn it back on again Darren. Absolutely. It works. It works. It does work. It does work. Quick aside does anyone notice that someone says to your got problems my laptop and the minute you turn up the problem goes away magically. Always. Always. Even even with me so I've got something that I can't do or something's happened on the screen. I would if the boys are around my sons I've showed to them and of course God what are you talking about mum. Sam coming back to you we're coming up to your revision are you watching it or are you not? I love your revision. Yes I do eat water. I've got I've got two daughters they love your revision. My wife does not love your revision she won't be watching but we'll be absolutely there. Yeah till the bitter end. Good good good. Right. Where have you been? I didn't even who's representing us this year. I don't think I don't know why but it doesn't matter you just want to watch it for eyes wide dry once again. Yeah. The deer when was the last time you paid for something with a coin? See all of us have got that face where we're going. Oh no hang on I have I have so I withdraw money to pay for my cleaners who come in and they were here yesterday Darren so I had two two pound coins and a pound coin because I had no notes to make up the five for the 10 yesterday. Excellent fantastic. Sam what is your favourite loaf of bread? Havis white sliced boring. No not white it's got to be seeded fiber brown bread. Sourdough's seeded. I'm a simple lad with some very picky children. Last question to you both and I'm going to come to you first Sam. What was the best piece of advice you were ever given? Oh good lord. Well in terms of the various books I read you can't see them they're over there. It's the one that kind of frames a lot of my thinking is the Steven Covy Circle of Influence right. Worry about the things you that are within your control and everything else just let go and I kind of have this kind of inner calm it keeps me keeps me grounded. Fantastic that's wonderful thank you Sam. It's really good. It's really good. I like that one. Mine feel the fear and do it anyway so you know you are absolutely at the point and you've just quoted Steven Covy which absolutely is right and I've forgotten feel the fear and do it anyway I'm going to have to look in a minute. Oh it's completely blank but is it who's there? Come on is it Louise Hane? No is it Marie Antero? It will come back no it's not. Feel the fear and do it. Come back. We'll find it and put a link to it in the in the posts. Thank you both for putting it people are people too. It is I've just I've locked up Susan Jeffers. There you go. There you go. Thank you. So my end went completely blank. I was just reaching for my phone to do a quick search as well. So thank you. I was going to say my wife would be gutted to link the rollercoaster question because that's a real bonus contention in my house. She loves the rollercoasters as does my eldest, but myself and my youngest child are definitely not rollercoaster people. So we went to Disneyland a couple of years ago and they were off doing all the loops and everything and I just went on par with the Caribbean 12 times. No harm in that. But it's a classic. It's a classic right? Exactly. I quite like the Dodgum's. They're my favourites. Oh good. What? Yeah, never been that. So we're going to, you're a younger and you don't mind that head bashing. That's fine Joe, but as you get older, you need to keep your brain very secure in that. I hate you. I hate you. I have a massive anti-dimension. I can hang out with my life including this manish. Yeah, I can be. So look, I'm going to put you around up. I would like to ask a question as we finish in terms of hope. What gives you hope? What's, you know, what's the one thing that you would like listeners to take away in terms of practice? You'd like to see across local government and what gives you hope? Start with you Sam. What gives me hope? I think it's the people around me, to be honest. I think the great thing about local government public sector is you are surrounded by a lot of people that are there that want to make an impact. That they're not big egos, not saying they're on some egos in local government, but you know, they're not there for themselves. They're not there for the money. They're there to make a real impact. And it's about, for me, it's always about building that coalition the willing. So I find those people across the organisation. We work together, we do some great stuff together. And I'm going to build on that, Joe, because mine is about people. That's something that I just feel so, so passionate about. And actually leaving public sector mainstream to join Socrates, it was very much around a role that was on leadership developing that capability before I took up this this current role as chief. But my ambition is to create that talent pipeline is really help put those succession plans in place. And I feel very, very passionately about that. So if there is something that keeps me awake and motivated about what we do across the sector, it's how do we create? How can I look down the line and think we've got millions of sand in that pipeline coming forward and taking up those positions of responsibility? And I more recently would be focusing a little bit more effort. Sorry, Joe, go on. Now I was going to say, aren't you covering this your president's conference? We absolutely are. So this is a very good conference. Thank you to, well, it's from legacy to leadership. So it's really important that we create those people that Sam says that are genuinely motivated, want to make a difference, really improve the outcomes for the people in the communities that we serve. And if I have a tiny bit of an opportunity to influence that or achieve some of these kind of outputs then undilighted. So tell me about the president's conference, when is it, where is it, how do you join it? So it's on the ninth and 10th of June. It's here in London, else court. So, you know, really, really very open for everybody to attend, but certainly those that are across London, Southeast, it's your patch. Nice. So make sure you're there. Come on, come on. So I've got to look at that. I've got to look at that. Can't just be an easy yes. I've got to look at, you know, who else is in the list? No pressure, but Joe, won't you come? I know, I know. And Joe, you came last year, didn't you, in the year before. So, and I think the more the message is, I would love to take it to register. Always clashes with my birthday, though, I think you can move today. How would you, what better have you got to do when you're birthday than exactly? Come on, Joe. But, but yes, very much looking forward to inviting colleagues to attend. It is our 40th year. We are celebrating. Our new president is Yigita Puppet. So she takes over from the London Bar of Barnet. So, cut frery Norfolk, taken over by Yigita. We are all in Celebratory mode, Joe. So it's going to be fabulous. And Yigita Puppet is our next guest on Have You Race to Take It? A lot of. Oh, I'm going to interrupt very nicely. There you go. So good. So good at this. Wow. So slight. We'd rehearsed it. Yeah. We planned it. Well, I, I have to admit, I thoroughly enjoyed talking about alligators, Roller coasters and bread. Heaven forbid that this is a digital podcast. Sam, Nidira, thank you ever so much for your time. Joe, anything you take away from me? I actually did pick up something related to work that is around the people that, that Nidira really believes that it's like bringing people on that journey, that co-creation, that early engagement. For Sam, he's got his own police force like jealous. And the big blind. Good. And bringing people on that journey with us. And also having some really, I love a tangible example. You know, we talk about, you know, airy, ferries stuff, but I love it. This is what we are actually doing in order to give people a bit of a break. So running off the gym is absolutely fine. And I hate the way that then gets twisted into projects that people go spend the time at the gym. It's not, it's a bit of a break. It's a lunch break. It's called, I'm going the gym during it. So thank you very much. Very excited to have the outgoing and incoming presidents of soccer team on our next podcast. So that'll be very exciting. Just in time for the soccer team conference where we will be hopefully plugging this podcast. Thank you very much. Nidira, Sam, any final words for you to? No, just thank you for having me. It's been absolute pleasure. And see all the presidents conference if not before. And quite for me, very delighted to be a part of the conversation. Thank you very much. Lovely. Thank you both. Thank you both.