To Anyone Working With A Toxic Boss: How to Deal With It & Move On

I low-key feel like we're going through some of the personality disorders of sociopaths and serial killers. I mean it makes sense that there's an overlap because we're not just talking about bad bosses. We're talking about toxic bosses like toxic landfill like gotta get away from them. I'm Shuri. I'm Jean and we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters and we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Guys work and building a career is hard but it is 10,000 times harder when you have a bad boss or even worse a toxic boss. In today's episode we're going to go over how to know if you have a toxic boss, how to get out of a bad situation and then we're going to share your workplace horror stories and our reflections and also advice on it. This episode is so important because your relationship with your boss, your direct relationship is proven to have an impact on your mental health, your financial outcomes and even your next job because recommendations these days are so people based. Some people care about work a lot and we are those people. Me? We're really invested in our career and our growth but we recognize that not everyone is like that. Sometimes for people a job is just a job and that's okay but no matter what circumstance you're in if you have a toxic boss your life will be so much more miserable. So the reason why we wanted to do this episode is because having a bad boss or a toxic boss is such a universal experience and when you're in that experience even though it's universal you can feel so so alone and that's how I felt. So we want to do this episode so that you actually have methods on how to get out of that situation and if you're one of the lucky ones who has never had a bad boss or a toxic boss then one congratulations but two this is kind of a playbook on what to do if you actually do encounter one down the line and then finally if you think neither of these things apply to you then this is actually going to teach you how to not become a toxic boss yourself. Today's episode is presented by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app that helps you bank, borrow and invest your money in one place. Before we dive in I do want to disclose that I personally have never had a toxic boss but I do have a lot of friends and obviously you know people in my life who have experience one but I think for my perspective I can share some of the really great experiences I've had in the workplace and so if you're watching this you're a people manager you are a boss there are some tips in there for you as well. So I haven't been as lucky as Shiree and I've definitely had some toxic bosses so I think it's going to be a really interesting conversation where we compare contrast. Yeah so let's just jump right in and define what is a toxic boss because there are a lot of bosses out there that are stressful and demanding but that doesn't necessarily mean they're toxic. Exactly. We're not just talking about bosses who are saying oh you need to stay late to meet your deadline or you need to work overtime. We're talking about recurring behaviors that are actually eroding your autonomy and hurting your mental health. Right so according to a 2024 Harvard Business Review guide to navigating a toxic workplace it says that a toxic boss is someone whose behavior consistently harms the psychological safety, well-being, motivation and career growth of their employees. So adding on to that this could include a boss who exhibits these behaviors. Gaslight's their employees aka you rewrite the narrative to avoid accountability on the bosses part. Micromanages or undermines trust, disrespects contributions and ignores boundaries or belittles, bullies and demeans team members sometimes in public meetings. This one I have definitely seen. It was a very young company and we had very young managers, very young bosses who I think didn't really have great role models of their own. So I remember this one time in a huge meeting of like you know 50 plus people. One of my co-workers was giving a presentation and he was going through this whole complicated analysis and like some part of it was wrong and the head of product at the time was basically berating him in front of the entire meeting and was like basically picking him apart and forcing him to defend each like basically do math in front of the entire group like live and when he was doing it wrong he was like no like this is wrong this presentation is totally stupid and your stupid too. And I was like that's so traumatizing and I felt really bad. I mean everyone else is like probably in shock traumatized and also like getting second hand toxicity from that you know from that interaction that's really really toxic. Yeah it's like second hand smoke. Yeah second hand toxicity. I mean it's bad for the entire like culture, the environment. It's not only like hurtful for that like person who's literally being called stupid in front of everyone but everyone else is like I don't want to seem stupid either. Yeah that's a great point it creates kind of like a culture of fear where everyone's like oh like shit like I can never mess up because if I ever make a mistake or say something that this boss doesn't like then they're gonna be right me and call me out and like call me stupid or worse in front of everyone. Yeah and I think that anecdote is especially worrying because it's not really just like a one time thing because it really breeds like a culture of toxicity and also potentially bad managers but this HBR guide is super helpful because it breaks down the importance of understanding toxicity as patterned behavior and not just your manager having like one or two bad days. So Harvard Business Review put out an article about a year ago and it's called five red flags of a truly toxic boss. We're gonna link this article in the description if you guys want to do a deeper diagnosis but we're gonna go through just the five tips right now to look out for. So basically this section is how to tell or diagnose if you have a toxic boss. So bosses are toxic if number one they lack self-awareness. Toxic bosses lack the ability to recognize and control their emotions. They tend to think they're right about everything which inhibits their ability to create resonance with teams and makes them resistant to feedback. We hate it on self-aware king or queen or queen. Okay number two they lack empathy. Toxic bosses don't invest time or energy in building relationships to understand how their communication approach may impact others. They struggle to relate to team members challenges perspectives and emotions and this in turn leads to low trust. I low key feel like we're going through some of the personality disorders of sociopaths and serial killers. I mean it makes sense that it would seem like there's an overlap because we're not just talking about bad bosses we're talking about toxic bosses like like landfill like toxic landfill like gotta get away from them. Yeah so number three they're only motivated by self-interest. Toxic bosses make everything about themselves and seek to take credit for other people's work. They're more likely to make risky attention grabbing strategic moves often at the expense of long-term stability. Yeah long-term team stability too so a lot of times when they're making these moves they're really good short-term moves for that boss specifically because they get a lot of like accolades or maybe they're getting promoted but it's usually at the expense of the broader team. True. And number four they demonstrate inconsistent behavior. Toxic bosses are unpredictable and employees may find it difficult to decipher what's expected of them from one day to the next. These bosses are unclear in their communication often displaying favoritism and often discrimination. This I have definitely experienced and I think this is one of the worst parts of the toxic boss because you literally your body is in like a state of fear every single day because you don't know how they're gonna react. It's like being in an abusive relationship in some ways because you're like oh are they gonna like be happy today or are they gonna like make jokes or are they gonna be angry and like be pissed off about whatever you mean and be mean and like you don't obviously you can't control that so it's one of the worst parts I think of these five. And the last one is number five they take advantage of power dynamics. Toxic bosses weaponize their power expecting employees to carry out their instructions obediently and without questioning their authority or the value of the work being undertaken. Okay I have also this is like this is like therapy for me because I have also experienced this where I had a boss where me and another colleague reported into the boss and we later found this out when me and this colleague you know had a heart to heart years later but this boss would tell us each different things where we were supposed to be working together so he would be like oh like you guys work together on this and he would say that in a meeting in front of everyone but then separately to this other person he would be like do not prioritize her project and basically he would tell her to like sabotage my project in a one-on-one. So damn yeah that's really the only reason I know this is because me and this colleague we became friends later on and we confided in each other and she told me she was like yeah like he told me to sabotage your projects all the time even though in public meetings he would be like make sure you prioritize this and help her on this and collaborate. I haven't said I have like no words for that. That's so crazy. That's like that's a little beyond toxic that's like ruining your career impacting your career outcomes, your financial outcomes, your mental health like you're like why isn't my project moving forward when like I think I have the support of this person that's like so I have no other word other than toxic. Yeah but like that's exactly what you describe take advantage of power dynamics toxic bosses weaponize their power expecting employees to carry out their instructions obediently and without questioning their authority and so it's also you know it probably was difficult for for this other colleague too, because she was like, wait, this is so weird. weird because in public meetings he's saying to like work on this initiative with my colleague, which was me, and to like push this forward, but then privately he's telling me not to, which is against our stated goals of our entire team. It's extremely political. Yeah, like very like house of cards, shit, where it's just like, let me say this in front of other people, so they have some sort of belief and then like stab someone else in the back like privately. Guys, this is what I was saying that I have experienced many toxic boss experiences. I guess more than enough to go around between me and Sheree, so it's good that she hasn't experienced any. I'm happy for you. Well, I also think that Gina's more senior in her career. So she had a different title and like position than I did, where she was probably exposed. I think at the companies that she worked for probably had more toxicity in toxic bosses in general, but I think she was probably exposed to more of it than I was, whereas I feel like the bosses that I've had since I was an individual contributor, like five years into my career, I think they really shielded me from this from the most part, for the most part, but I think maybe they were exposed to it more. Yeah, I also think like honestly, the more senior you get, the more these political dynamics come into play, because to be honest, like when you're an individual contributor, like you were a senior PM, right? Like you're still an individual contributor, but honestly, from the perspective of someone who was your boss, you weren't like a quote unquote threat to them, right? Like you were always there protégé. They wanted you to do really well because it reflected well on them, but they weren't like, oh Sheree's gonna like overtake me next year, so I need to like secretly sabotage her, but also like make it look like I'm supporting her at the same time. Yeah, so. I think, I mean, I was doing really good work at the level that I was at, and I think if I want more until like manager role where like your power is in like how big your team is, how visible your projects are in that way, it's more of like a land grab and also more like, you know, game of thrones, trying who's going to be at the sitting on the iron throne at the end. But it's also not always the case. We have some really crazy examples and experiences that you guys have sent in, where you are individual contributors, but you're still experiencing like insane toxic boss situation. So stay tuned for that. So at the end of the day, a toxic boss doesn't just create a negative experience for, you know, the person that they're managing or just the team that they're in. It creates this kind of like broader environment of distrust and like discomfort. And we actually have one last article we're going to talk about, which is a BBC article from about a month ago where they talk about research from 2023 that says one in three people have left a job because of a toxic workplace or manager. So I mean, it's showing that it's like the effect of a toxic boss is it's an economy wide effect. Yeah. I'm sorry that people have experienced a toxic boss, but if one in three people have left good, get out of there, get out of that bad situation and that bad relationship you're in. Proud of you. So we talk a lot about money and tech on tiger sisters and obviously crypto is a huge part of both of those worlds. Yes. And my sort of claim to fame is that I've had Bitcoin since like 2012 or 2013. Okay. Flex, is that why you're excited about today's sponsor? Yes. So if I crypto, the first and only national chartered bank where retail customers can buy, sell and hold over 25 cryptocurrencies and all on a federally regulated platform with the safeguards of a bank. I like it because your crypto doesn't need to live on a separate app. It can be situated with the rest of your finances on the SoFi app. Exactly. Same dashboard, same login, same clean experience. And right now, there's a great reason to check it out. New SoFi crypto members can get in on a weekly Bitcoin giveaway. Yes. SoFi is giving away $100,000 in Bitcoin every week now through March 31st. Now's your chance. Open an account today to claim your share at sofi.com/tigercrypto. That's sofi.com/tigercrypto. See full terms and conditions at sofi.com/crypto/100k. I know back to the show. So as you guys know, Jean has a lot of examples of toxic bosses in her life, but we wanted to open this up to our community and our audience. So we put out on our Instagram a number for you guys to call to leave us voice mails of your toxic boss stories and some of the anecdotes you guys have and also some of the advice. So here's one really good one we got from Emma, not her real name. She says, "I'm happy to give you this learning. Toxic bosses tend to be narcissistic if not full-blown narcissists. Often in our society, we misconstrue leadership and narcissism. Empaths fall prey to narcissists quite easily because we want to find a reason for everyone's behavior. We give people the benefit of the doubt." Yeah. I think this one is, I mean, especially true and astute observation. I think a lot of people in power, there's some sort of stat of how many people in society are actually narcissists and a lot of them are like business leaders and corporate professionals or sociopaths. Or sociopaths because they actually are very charismatic and can control a room, own the room, and we're like, "Wow, they're amazing, but as managers, maybe they're not so good." Okay, so continuing with like a few more anecdotes that you guys submitted, this is from Alexandra, not her real name, who submitted some anecdotes about negative experiences working with toxic male bosses. So she says, "Hi, tiger sisters. Here are some direct quotes from a former male boss to me. One, I'm just trying to figure out how to make you more likeable." Two, what are you wearing underneath your scrubs today? We're creepy. Yeah, no, that's completely, no, that one's beyond the pale horrible. That was effed up. Yeah. Alexandra, we are so sorry to hear that. That is a terrible, terrible experience. It actually reminds me of one of the stories that my friend Morgan told me, not her real name, where she has always worked in a very male dominated environment, where she's always worked in finance and in a specific sector of finance that is even more male dominated than usual. I remember she told me that she was at this small finance company. She moved to this new team and she was like, "Okay, great. I left the bulge bracket banks and now I'm in a smaller team. It was all men except for her on the investment team, on the investment side." One day she went into work and nobody was there. Everyone was missing. No one was in the office and she was like, "Where's everyone? Hello." Then she later found out that all of the guys on the team, aka everyone aside from her, had gone out to a baseball team, a baseball game together as a team bonding and no one had bothered to tell her and they just assumed that she wouldn't be interested or wanted to exclude her because she wasn't a woman. It's so rude. It's so rude. It's so rude. It's like 1950 but also baseball. Anyone can watch baseball. I think they just didn't want to. They just didn't want her there. They're so clear to me. Also, she knows a lot of sports. She's actually really sporty. She's super sporty and would have enjoyed. She probably knows more sports than half of them. Clearly, I don't know sports because I'm just saying no sports. By using that phrase, I'm clearly not one of these people. She knows sports. I should have been excluded maybe but not more than. I think that story is really tough to hear because I know how hard it is to have a male boss and also male teammates in that way where they're not inclusive of you. Yeah, a toxic male boss. Not just any male boss. A toxic male boss. I also do want to call out. It is also possible to have a toxic female boss as well, especially in male-dominated environments. And so one of our audience members, Sarah, gave us just basically a story where she had a toxic female boss and that was really hard on her because there weren't many men in their team or their role essentially working. She probably looked to her to be like, "Oh, she's going to be my default mentor. We're going to be friendly because we're the only women on this team." Let's work together. This is going to be my mentor. This person is going to be incredible. I'll be under her wing. But oftentimes in these very male-dominated industries, I think just a reality is that a lot of these women in power don't necessarily want to be super helpful. They had a really hard time climbing the ladder in that space or in that industry and they think that people who are just starting out should have to do the same. Yeah, I mean, I think that could be the case and I think a lot of it is a factor of the environment that some of these successful senior women grew up in where it was like there was only one seat at the table for a woman. You had to fight all these other women to get that one seat, even if on a whole, like all of these women were better than all the other men at the table. It doesn't matter. So I can imagine it can be really hard to shed that mindset that you'd like built up for like 20, 30 years of your career. Yeah, I think that's also really important too. In that context, it's hard. But if there is a company that you can see actually supports the women in the company where they have an employee resource group for women in tech or women in product, you can kind of see that the culture is trying to get these amazing women together to kind of band together to help each other out rather than like, you know, fighting each other. That's true. I mean, it's fun. because in the past when Sheree has told me stories about her work experience, I've been like, "What is this amazing Disney Land that you work in?" Where you had this women-in-tech group, right? Women in products or whatever, this ERG, and they would have these male allies. - Allies. - Allies, who would come and go out of their way to help you with stuff. - Yes. - I'm like, this is, to me, it's unheard of. Maybe because I'm a half-generation older than Sheree, so that stuff wasn't around. I think it was kind of a utopia in the tech world where a lot of the senior leaders were very, it was just the culture. They were very invested in making it like 50/50 gender parity in leadership roles and actually release stats of how they were doing year to year because of the pressure from the employees to be like, "Okay, let's take a look across all senior leadership roles in VP, Director, whatever, all these different roles." And what was the breakdown on gender? And how are we doing this year? In engineering, in product, in marketing, etc. - Yeah, I just think it says a lot that somehow the company had created the environment where a male employee would actively want to help out the ERG because they thought it would be beneficial for their career. - Yeah. - Like, that's so crazy. That's such a good example of like, incentives and then behaviors. - Yes. - Right? It was kind of amazing to be like, "It's Barbie's world!" And we have Ken helping us out. - Yeah, for your specific group. - Yeah. Okay, so now that we've talked about all the ways you can actually diagnose and identify if you have a toxic boss, we're going to move on to the section where we give you methods so that you can actually navigate the situation. So let's turn back to Harvard Business Reviews Guide to Navigating Toxicity. So what are some of the steps that you can take? So number one, first and foremost, diagnose the situation before reacting. These are the things you should ask yourself. Is this a systemic problem or is it personality driven? Or two, is it temporary stress or is it structural culture? - Yeah, I like that point because, you know, not everyone's perfect. I can imagine at one point or another somebody can have a bad day or snap or something like that. But I think the real thing is if it's a recurring behavior, then that lends itself to be like, yeah, no, this boss is toxic. - Yeah, when I had a boss or someone that I worked with that had a bad day, it was kind of funny because we're like, oh, they're having a bad day. Like they're generally very nice and pleasant and sunshiney and they're just having a bad day. And obviously you have grace for that. Everyone has bad days. But I think if it's like the reverse situation where they're like always toxic or horrible, like that's not a good situation to be in. - Yeah, like if you're going to work every day with your chest really tense and like nervous and like not sure what you're going to encounter in terms of your boss, that's a bad sign. That's, yeah, probably toxic. - So if it is personality driven, mostly from one boss that checks off a lot of the red flags we gave you, your best bet is documentation as you work on your next moves. So what does this look like? This includes getting everything in writing. So what are your deliverables and what are your deadlines? Make sure you have those written down and you build visibility outside of your boss like with anyone that you work with, cross-functional partners, and push to get all top priorities in writing, asking for specific feedback and saving all relevant emails, Slack messages, team messages to document expectations and their behavior. - One thing I'll add to that is that I think a lot of people, especially people who are earlier on in their career, kind of are like, well, if I have a problem with my boss, then I'll just go to HR, like I have HR, that's what HR is there for. Wrong. HR is not the white knight that you think it might be, right? Like the point of HR, the entire function of HR in a company, is to serve the company, right? So like their job is to help and protect the company, not necessarily you as the employee, even though it might seem that way because they're very nice people individually, but their goals in their job are to protect the company. So I just wouldn't go around thinking or like expecting that HR is going to be the one to like save you from a toxic boss or necessarily help you get out of the situation, or even really be like a path of any type. - Yeah, I think what we're learning here and what we'll share with you are some tips and strategies of ways you can save yourself. - Yeah, like one in three people are, you don't know, removing themselves from the situation of having a toxic boss. These are different ways that you can save yourself. Like we said, document everything as you're looking for your next move, and we have some more tips to share. - Yeah, so the second part is if you've diagnosed this situation as not necessarily personality driven, but more so systemic, right? So let's say you're in a broader group where or the broader company, where you're kind of like, "Mm, it's not just one toxic boss, it's the culture." It's like everyone is operating in the same way. Then you gotta think about next moves, right? You're not just trying to move laterally or move to a to her boss within your group. You start to think about an exit opportunity. So that's when you start working on your resume. That's when you start having these coffee chats again. And that's when you start re-activating your network so that you can know what your options are. - So as you're looking for your next job and your next role outside of a toxic boss, outside of a toxic company, here are some things you should look for. So Lazlo Bach, who is a prominent HR leader, author, and former SVP of People Operations at Google, he wrote a really, really famous book called Work Rules. And what he suggests is that when you're looking for your next job or your next work, that work should be meaningful, humane, centered on people, not bureaucracy or control. - Yeah, so one of the big points in that book, Work Rules, is that Lazlo says you should look for workplaces where employees are trusted, empowered, and treated like partners in the business. So I think that that whole Lazlo Bach thing is really interesting and kind of academic. But what do you do when you're actually looking for this job? Like what do you actually look out for? So we actually had one of our amazing listeners, Isabelle, right in with one of these suggestions. Okay, so Isabelle says, "I've been through both a very toxic work environment with a manipulative, insecure boss and a positive productive work environment with the best, most inspiring boss. What I've learned on how to identify a promising high potential boss, ideally someone who is not a first-time manager, founder, CEO, and who has had team members from previous roles follow them to the new role. My last boss, who is the most exceptional leader I've ever encountered, people first, deeply empathetic, empowering, leads by example, both soft and authentic, yet challenges and motivates, has had team members of her team follow her across several different companies now. I believe that clearly shows her team respects, trusts, and believes in her, which are such promising signals. I would look for this factor when considering a new role and vetting a new boss." Absolutely. I love this example because I don't think there's anything wrong if you have like a first-time manager in terms of like if you're working a startup, but like there are greater risks there, like they might not know exactly what to do, might not have the training or the years of experience. I think it is so telling when people follow their boss from one company to another, so I love this example. Yeah, I could not agree more. So for anyone listening, just do exactly what is the belt said. So we've hit you guys with a ton of examples, but we have one more from this book that has a really important concept. It's by Simon Sinek and it's called Leaders Eat Last. So basically it's talking about the idea that great leaders prioritize protecting their people, especially from internal politics, public shaming, and fear-based management. When people feel safe, they want to collaborate, they want to do their best work, and when they feel unsafe, they self-protect, and that's when they're focused on other things, then creating the best outcomes for the team. And I think my example here is that I've always felt very supported and protected by my managers whenever there's like any internal politics going on, or honestly, if someone's senior to me sends me a mean email or is extremely rude or short or whatever, I've had my managers in the past, be like, I've told them about it, and they're like, "Cc me in, I got this." And so I've always felt very protected by my managers in that they cared about me, they cared about my well-being, and when things weren't right, they were able to step in for me, and I think that is an incredible trait where it led me to do my best work, where I felt like, "Oh, I didn't have to worry about this VP of engineering, kind of talking about my project in a bad way or whatever, because I could then focus on my project and making it better." Your boss is like, "Never speak to me or my son, never again." Yeah, my boss was just like, "Put me in, put me in." Like, I got this. They're always trying to protect me. I mean, I think it's good to hear examples like yours, because for people who have experienced toxic boss, toxic environment, toxic company like over and over again, sometimes you can lose hope and you can be like, "Is there even a good working environment out there?" I know a lot of people who actually think that, like a lot of my friends, and for you, you're providing an example of like, "Actually there is, like I've worked in a really positive environment where my boss did this for me." And like, honestly, if you had not been telling these stories, like for a year after year, I almost like wouldn't even believe it. Like, I would be like, "What? Like, there's a boss out there who's like that that's like almost like unbelievable." Well, I think I don't know if I'm the exception or the rule out there, but like, there's this one boss shout out Albert. I know he watched his tiger sisters shout out Albert. He remembers all of our birthdays on our team. I know you do that as well. And Albert, he would not only wish us a happy birthday, but remember to get us a card and a virtual card that everyone on the team signs. And then I think we've also had cake before too and desserts and stuff. When I hit 73,000 followers on TikTok, I don't know why it was that milestone. I hit 73,000. It was a big deal for me or whatever. And Albert sent some dessert for me to my house. I think he sent me these little tiny cute little cream puffs. I think there were where there's seven in there. I don't know. He was trying to do something with the numbers and make it special for my birthday. He's sent donuts when we were in COVID times. It was all so sweet. And I think because of how Albert fostered a really wonderful culture on our team, one of my co-workers, Emily, one day I was having a really bad day. And we were in a meeting and she knew I was having a really tough time during COVID. And she door dashed me coffee because it was just so in the culture of our team that Albert created where we were looking out for each other. And she's like, "Oh my God, you had a horrible day. Let me send you your favorite coffee order." It was just so nice. And I think that's very reflective of a good boss. And a really beautiful team. And another thing that Albert did really, really well is that he would take blame publicly and give credit publicly. So even if things were messed up or a project and goes as planned, Albert would never publicly shame anyone and he'd be like, "It's on me." And never be like, "It's this specific person on my team who messed up." And I think that is a really great mark of a leader where they're never trying to single out someone to make them look bad. And he's able to take the blame publicly. Also he was a really great leader that people trusted anyways so that even if he did take the fall on something, they weren't docking him for it. Yeah, he had built up enough credibility and credit with everyone in the org. Yes. And so I think that's really great. Whereas I think toxic bosses shift the blame on someone. They throw someone under the bus or they don't want to take the blame. And I think this is really important. They give credit publicly too so that when someone-- Good bosses. --good bosses give credit publicly. Or something good happens. They're like, this team project was an absolute success. And they're like, it was because of Sheree's leadership on this project. And Albert did that consistently. He would always shine a light on his team members when they did things well. And when things didn't go as planned, I think he would take the hit, the fall for it. And I think that's a really one noble leader and also just a really noble person. Yeah. I mean, I think it's good to have this positive example. I also think this is a good segue into our final segment, which is how to tell if you're a toxic boss. OK, so we have a mini exercise for you. What if I'm the drama and I the toxic boss? So let's flip the script now. And if you're listening to this and thinking, am I the drama? Here's what to look out for. So here are the questions you can ask yourself if you're thinking you might be a toxic boss. Do people look nervous around me? Two. Is turnover high on my team? Three. Do people hesitant to bring me new ideas? Four. Am I micromanaging? Five. Do I correct people publicly often? Six. Am I reacting emotionally to mistakes that are either made by yourself or made by people on your team? Seven. Do I create urgency as a control tactic? And finally, eight. Do I feel threatened by high performers? I want to say very seriously, like as you're going through this checklist, if some of these are applied to you and you're being very self-reflective. I want to applaud you for taking this very seriously. And also, there are ways to improve. I actually think this is a very serious moment because there was someone on the broader team that I think was a very toxic teammate, toxic leader. And I was nervous around this person. I felt nervous around them. I felt hesitant to bring new ideas. This person publicly shamed people. But I will say they're not a bad person and they were given feedback by their boss that they were doing these things. They just honestly didn't realize it. It was kind of in their personality because they grew up in a startup environment. They were very intense. They did tell people that their ideas were stupid in public. And this was a leader. So like, it's actually really hurtful when they did that. But they got feedback and they like greatly improved so that they became less toxic. So I don't think it's like once you're toxic boss, like you are a narcissist, you are like a horrible person, a sociopath and all this things. I don't think that's not necessarily all the cases. I mean, in a lot of the stories, those people are and it's kind of hard to fix that. But like, if you're reflecting on me, like, oh damn, I am kind of checking off some of these boxes. I'm realizing it. Like, there are ways to actually really improve and become a better boss. And I saw this hands on with someone on my team that like after they improved, I'm like, this is, I can see all of their benefits of working with them on the team. Like, it came out way more when they became like less toxic and they realized they were making some people feel nervous or feel bad. But they were really great to work with afterwards. Wow. That is such, that's so inspiring. Yeah. So I'm like, take this section seriously. Yeah. You can improve and you can also improve for the people around you. And for yourself. Like, imagine if you're being held back by all these things. Like, how much better you could be? Absolutely. Absolutely. This person was like so held back by themselves just because they didn't realize it. They didn't have the self-awareness. They did call people stupid in public. They did publicly shame. They cut people off. And like, once they were given this feedback, I think they were really able to grow. That's a great story. I think this is like a great, I love ending it on this. Yeah. There is a silver lining here if you do find yourself being toxic. There's a rainbow at the end of the, of the rainstorm of the podcast. Okay. So like Shari was saying, if you listen to this list and you do find that a lot of these ring true for you, this is a good time to sort of pause and reflect and ask yourself a couple questions. So ask yourself, what is it like to work for me? What is it like to work under me? Do people grow when they work under me? Am I emotionally regulated? If I can't emotionally regulate myself, how can I emotionally regulate others and grow an entire team and a business? And so here is your practical reform plan if you do find that you are the drama. So number one, ask for anonymous feedback. I think that is how the person that I worked with was able to grow. We gave this person a lot of anonymous feedback to apologize without being defensive. You'll be surprised how far an apology or I'm sorry, we'll go in the workplace. And number three, clarify expectations explicitly. Okay, guys. So this is our conclusion, toxic bosses exist, but so does career agency. And hopefully you've gotten some really good methods on how to get out of a bad situation from this episode. Yeah. And recently, Jean and I did some field research where we went to the movie and we saw send help with Rachel McAdams, which is basically a movie that came out recently about a very toxic boss relationship. I won't give too much away. But I think in watching that movie, I think some toxic boss relationships are not really fixable. Thank you guys for being with us for this episode. And please let us know in the comments if you have had a toxic boss. And we didn't have a chance to get to all of the submissions for the voicemail, but let us know in the comments what your toxic boss horror story is or what you learned from your toxic boss situation or how you got out of your situation. We are just so curious about you guys. And we read every single comment. And it also really helps the rest of the community when you share your own experiences. Thank you guys. See you next time. Bye. Quick note. So I know a lot of people think the podcast are just about talking off the cuff, but I think what you don't see is that for Tiger Sisters podcast behind the scenes, there is so much research and cultural curation that goes into every single episode. Yeah. And I feel like you can kind of feel it because in every episode, we have a lot of studies that we reference, a lot of research. And we want to make sure you guys get the signal through all the noise out there. That's why it is so important that you subscribe and follow us on every single platform, whether it's Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcast or whatever you're watching this on. It only takes two seconds to do and it's really a simple gesture that has so much impact on helping us build momentum and build this community with you. Welcome to the Tiger Sisters family.