TN:105 Fred Again..

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Hello and welcome to Tapet Notes, the podcast that looks behind the scenes at the magic of recording and producing music. Every episode will be re-uniting an artist and producer and talking through some of the highlights from their collaboration in the studio. So join us as we lift the lid on the creative process and the inner workings of music production to see what lies beneath. Hello, I'm John Kennedy and joining me for this episode of Tapnodes is Fred again to talk about how he wrote, recorded and produced the album Actual Life 3, January 1 to September 9, 2022. Fred Gibson, better known as Fred again, is a songwriter, multi-instrumentalist and producer. Starting out as a classical musician during his school years, Fred was also heavily inspired by hip-hop and began to experiment with composition and music production. At the age of 16, through a mutual friend, he joined an acabella group, organized by producer Brian Eno. And after impressing it with his musical capabilities, gain Brian as a mentor. Continuing to venture further into the world of production, Fred co-produced an album with Rapper Roots Manoeuvre and began taking on roles on tracks from a number of high-profile artists. In 2018, he began to turn heads within the music industry when he co-wrote George Ezra's smash hit Shotgun. The track spent four weeks at number one, only to be knocked off by clean bandits solo, which Fred also co-wrote and co-produced. In increasingly high demand, 2019, Saw Fred share his talents on tracks from artists including BTS, Ed Sheeran and Stormsy. The success of each record Saw Fred involved as a songwriter or producer on 30% of the number one songs in the UK that year. Ultimately leading to him becoming the youngest recipient of the Brit Award for producer of the year. In April 2021, he released his debut solo album Actual Life, a collaborative diary centering around sounds and samples uncovered from the unlikelyest of sources, as explored in tape notes episode 75. The second album in the series Actual Life 2 arrived in November that year, and after a viral boiler room set, his solo work began to reach a much wider audience. Since then, he has collaborated on tracks with artists including Swedish House Mafia, H, High and Rommie, and in October 2022, he released Actual Life 3. His third full-length album in 18 months, the record digs further into his sample exploration, all the while reflecting on its two predecessors. Today, I'm here in Waterloo, South London, with Fred at Fred's house, and what better way to start our conversation than by hearing something from the record? This is Blue, better with time. Just know that I'm just know that I get got every time. Just know that I'm just know that I get got so blasted. You get the image you must get. Just know that I get got every time. It is Blue, better with time by Fred again from Actual Life 3, and I'm very pleased to say that I'm sat with Fred again. What's good? It's for another episode to take. No, it's great to see Fred. Thanks for inviting us into your home. We're actually in your house, your flat. In Central London, the river is a stone-throw away. It's South London. I'm from South London. I feel safe and secure now. No good. That's why I did it. What a beautiful pad you have. Thanks. That's a happy place to write. I've had lots of very peaceful, slow early mornings writing on that table. The sun comes in from all the different that angle and so it's a lovely place to write. Fantastic. Of course, the new album is out. Actual Life 3, we're talking in actual life. It's interesting because we did another episode with you, obviously, around actual life the first one. That was only last year and yet so much has happened. Was it the first record we did? Not the second one. It was the first one. I don't know. Recorded in June 21, so I think it had just come out. It was episode 75. If you haven't heard that episode of Take Notes with Fred again before. Again before. I know. It's again complicated. But so much has happened. That's the amazing thing because when we were talking before, the pandemic was still kind of off and on and real life hadn't really come back. You hadn't really played shows and now it's a whole different world because we're up to your third solo album. We had a whole series of EPs as well and you've played loads of shows. That is mad. Did you say we did it in June? Yeah. It was a really, really warm day. So I hadn't maybe played a show yet. I think my first show was in July. Which does feel, yeah, that's a different world. That one. We were living in there. It's bizarre to think that that's the case because yeah, shows have definitely changed my life in the last year for sure. And do you think they've had an impact on the music as well? Definitely. The thing that I was probably experiencing when we did, when we spoke first was how much the just reading people's messages about what that record had started to mean to them. That totally changed my life in terms of, yeah, just these stories I'd get on Instagram or in other places about something, meaning something totally different to someone else than it does to me. Or in some cases totally the same, but that changed why I write because I made the first record more just like a sort of diary entry. What I mean by that is that the shows are then the most extreme version of that because in the same way you can get a message from someone when you're then at a show, you can actually see the human beings. Even though you can't always have like an actual conversation, the exchange of energy and shit like that has totally changed my mental makeup for sure. That's really interesting. And in terms of the sound of the music, because if we listen to actual live three, it's much more of a dance floor album. Yeah, no, I think, I mean, that was like not conscious to be honest, but I'm sure that that will be a reaction to the fact that I was playing the music in rooms and actually dancing with people as opposed to like on the first one and to a degree to like, yeah, no, it's not really dance music. I mean, it's got like drums that sort of signal those tropes, but it's not really built for those rooms. And there are songs on this record that I guess aren't either, but a lot of it is I think unconsciously affected by that for sure. Yeah, well, we're going to delve into it and find out more about it. And the first song we're going to look at is Delilah. Pull me out of this. So if we hear a bit of the master and then we can get into how you created it. This is where we find out if I have the master of that song. I tell you what I do have, yeah, an offensive amount of demos. I think this is a master. Might not be the final one. Oh yeah, that's really old at it. I think the fact that we're listening to this version of the song actually tells a really good the fact that in my that I thought this was a master says a lot about the journey this song was went on because this is like six months old, different first minute of the song, different piano riff different and this is the oldest Delilah master. Yeah, like the whole thing. Okay, now I'll try and actually get played the actual master. I think it's good doing it this way around. We've unconscious unintentionally done it chronologically, but like this whole record here we go. Yeah, it went through so many different forms and that was one of the first ones, but yes, so then the final one gets to like this kind of place. But when I just got here I was just a bit like I don't want to be here anymore. (upbeat music) ♪ Call me out of this ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Call me out of this ♪ ♪ Call me out of this ♪ - So Delilah, tune with many different editions. - Yeah, so it was good the order, which we did that. - So maybe I asked this question before, but with actual I3 and with the Diary concept, do we assume, as the opening track is like, January 1st, 2022, that each of these are like in chronological order? - Totally, yeah, I mean, there is in chronological order, but obviously things inevitably get blurry because when you start something, or is the same as when you finish something, 'cause things take different lengths obviously. So it is vaguely in chronological order, but like there are some songs that took much longer than others. - So so when you might have started Delilah in February, I mean, that's right. - Yeah, that's right. - But you might not have finished it until August. - Yeah, exactly, yeah. So like I think of it, like the thing that's important to, like kind of roughly stay true to is the like, emotional epicenter of the piece, like when that wasn't February, and like what she was saying definitely felt like, it was the beginning of the story that I was wanting to tell in the record. So even though that tune then took months, like that was always clearly like, gonna be the second or third song to me. But like it was, I mean, the thing that was interesting with, to your point about let people change affecting the music is that this one that I played first, that I thought was the master, this would have been in March. (upbeat music) With the piano riff, it was this. (upbeat music) From here, wow. (upbeat music) Like I then played that in a rave, I did somewhere. And it was really, really instinctively obvious. Immediately that that riff was way too complex for the message I wanted the song to send at that moment. Like she's meant to be the ethereal sort of angel that you can't pin down, and then the music's meant to pull you out of it and put you in a steady place. And that piano riff, as soon as I played it in a room, like it was so obvious, like it's three different phrases. It's like, um. (upbeat music) But it's one bar as, bar one is one phrase, bar two and three are the different phrases, and then bar four are the different phrases. But when it started to get close to the one. (upbeat music) Like the rhythm is hypnotizing more so you can surrender to it and get into more of a, it pulls you out of it a bit more. Right. And that was so, I remember so vividly playing in the room and it wasn't doing any of the things I imagined it would do in that room. I could feel that people were not able to latch into the melody in the way I wanted them to be. And so then there was this sort of journey towards that riff, shout out, Kiran, for tat as well, for helping a lot with that. 'Cause we then had another moment like that where we played a better version of it, a raving New York, and the riff would have been like, am I fucking new guys up by playing the piano? Did anyone expect this? (laughing) - How it doing? - Um, it was being like, (upbeat music) And so then we played that one and what was really interesting is that, when I asked Kiran to sing back the riff to me that was, (singing) he sang, (singing) and he instinctively just thought that's what it was doing when he'd heard it. And then I noticed that people in the club were actually singing that riff that wasn't there, but that wasn't in the song, but it was like implied that that was what him, Sonny, Skrillex heard it, the riff has been there, the people in the row were singing that and it wasn't in the notes. And so then I was like, okay, we need to just like slightly hint at that being in the notes to bring that out. - So you then actually made that a bit more explicit? - Yeah, so at different moments, so at some moments it's more implied and at some moments it shows you the thing on a higher synth (piano music) that comes in and shows you it a bit clearer. That was what Kiran and I spent time trying to like solidify the relationship between. - Yeah, yeah, amazing. And when did it start? I mean did it start with that phrase that she's singing? - Yes, and so how did you come across that? - So that, I came across that because it's a song that she'd written with my little brother and so he played it to me and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. - So this is Delilah Montague. - That's right, yeah, yeah, yeah, Shouts out to Delilah and Shouts out Benji, my brother. Yeah, they made this song and then I sort of been wanting to sound flip. (piano music) Yeah. (piano music) ♪ Eyes on the ceiling chasing the feeling ♪ ♪ I'm only drinking water now ♪ - I told you did you actually use that version to. - No, there's a different version that she posted or was she was singing on Instagram, which is what I saw, but I think. ♪ It's been faster than all gone hard to be ♪ ♪ You know how to calm me down ♪ ♪ Touch me, talk to me, pull me out of this place ♪ ♪ Pretty light ♪ - Actually, you know what, hold on. I know I'm saying this, I'm like, there's a whole other realm of this tune that I actually made with George from the 1975 that I might still put out if I finish. This was, I think, the first question of it, I worked on for ages. (piano music) And is this a collaboration that existed online and will be in the same room? - No, we were working together for a few, yeah, yeah, yeah. Love George, he's an incredible producer and dude. ♪ Touch me, I'll be, pull me out of this place ♪ ♪ Touch me ♪ - I think there is still something important to me in this version 'cause it's telling a really different story that's to me. - And it's not using either. - No, this is her pitch down. - Oh, wow. - Yeah. ♪ I want to tell you everything ♪ - But this moment, yeah. ♪ I'll be, you know you're doing too ♪ (upbeat music) - Like this, I've played out and it does a very different thing and I do still love it, but I could never find a way of, and that's similar to anything I was working on the other version that tells the kind of other side to her story, I guess. That's more to me the sound of being in it and the other one's more the sound of being pulled out of it. - Yeah, really like the sound of that though. - Appreciate it, yeah. No, I do still love that one and there's a few other various ones on the way there. I wonder what this is. (upbeat music) Another one. (laughing) I mean, that'll be so many of these. (upbeat music) ♪ Touch me ♪ ♪ I'll be, pull me out of this place ♪ ♪ Touch me ♪ - I mean, that was gonna be one of my questions for you today is that listening to the album and there's so many different elements of rhythm and trying to make a decision on the right beat, the right rhythm, the right tempo for these songs because then say if we take the last two albums as well, then you'll do a piano EP, which takes out the tempo and the beat completely. And there's so many options. Now how do you make those decisions? - I've been playing that through. - Yeah, I go through all of them a lot of times. - Sometimes there are ones where you do get it more pieces of the puzzle earlier on. But I'm looking now and yeah, there were probably two songs on this record where the natural state, well not even natural, but the first version of it I tried ended up being it. But yeah, there's a lot where I'll turn over every stone to see what, 'cause you can't like, you have to try it, I think, you can imagine in your mind, oh what would it be like, that beat? I don't know, I don't want to hear it. But so often you need to just be confronted with that piece of music and actually see how it makes you feel to know what you can learn from it. And yeah, so this Delilah was for sure one of those and similarly with Bowin. Yeah, no, there's like a, it's like, remember when we were talking about having the different drones that frame the emotion of the music differently, like on Delilah, it was always very, one thing I didn't challenge ever was that the drone was an F, which is on the fifth of the scale, which is the sweetest note to put a drone on. So if you're in like, these kind of chords, if your pedal is out, whereas if my pedal was, (piano music) - Always on the D, the third of the scale, that has a much more haunting realm to it. And those types of things, I'll move where the drones are, 'cause I build so many of them out of drones and just seeing which drone, like compliments the emotion the most. And then the next part of that, I think, is which beat compliments, the drone, which compliments the emotion. - Right. - And then which chord progression? - And what do you use to make the drones? - I usually, oh, it's good this actually, yeah. - Because there are obviously loads of different kinds of drone making instruments now, be they electronic or traditional instruments, no? - So often I'll drag the song, whatever state I'm working on, or a random song just from my iTunes, but create it from itself. So like, okay, I'll just drag in a whole bunch of this. And there's this thing that Brian showed me, is that we use a lot for these where, okay, so this is the song. (upbeat music) So then this is the song just drenched out to a different place. And then, see this thing. It's essentially incredibly simple what this is doing. It's just a spectra-analyser that you can choose the frequency stuff. So if I then slightly streamline it. So you can start to draw which ones you're finding, but you can go as precise as if I turned this to 2000, different modes. I can just pluck out a note, so it'll be like, - Wow. So I mean, that is amazing, because that's for those who are listening to the podcast and not looking at my YouTube stuff. So Fred, you're taking the spectrum analyzer and in effect, you've got the sound wave, but you can, as you say, draw by dragging it and you know, it'll arge it, shrink it, and move it around and hear the results as you're doing it. - Yeah, it's essentially like an EQ, but if the EQ is like binary, like instead of turning down 800 hertz, you're turning on or off 800 hertz, which fundamentally becomes like, you can just draw chords because obviously the chords are just made of, you know, if A is 440, I'm not gonna be able to remember the different notes of my head, but like, you can just draw an A minor chord. (soft music) This is a random chord. I mean, that emotion is obviously suddenly really, that eerie, but if you were to color it in with, it starts to show a little bit more sweetness. (soft music) - Because in a way, you often use this technique as not having a blank canvas as well. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Instead of just having nothing. - Yeah, yeah. Well, if there's a vocal that I love, which is usually what I start from, I'll be editing it and chopping it over different drones and seeing why I like learn from how it makes me feel in different frames, I guess. - And for those who are interested in using that bit of kit, - Yeah, that's expert sleepers by spectral conquest. - That's good, I don't usually, I remember last time I wasn't very good on like, the giri textite. - There's a cold hard stat as a plug-in. - Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Now, because that blank canvas thing, taking away that blank that you're faced with. - Did I tell you the Brian's story of him like giving me loads of sketches? This is such a good bit of Brian. - I think you should share, just seeing, you know, where is the harm in repeating? - We should have just seen case it, clarify this is Brian E-No, that's right. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Just to case people don't know of the connection. - Yes. - And because you explained your connection to Brian in episode 75 very well and gave us that history, which was fascinating. So that is essential listening. (laughing) Just as great you mentioned George from the 1975, 'cause they were on for a second time, just as you were on for a second time, only recently for the new album. Yeah, but the Brian's story. - Yes, when I was making the first record really, I was like very lost with, like when I was first slicing up the samples that I'd find from other people, it was a really like conflicting experience because I was very aware that I was sort of distorting their spirit. You know, it was one thing when it was people, friends off of my phone, but it was another when it was a random person from a video on Instagram in the middle of America or whatever. And so I found it, I would get very anxious about like whether it was okay and stuff and find it very hard to just kind of start to go into the state of play and things like that that is so important. And he, I was explaining this to Brian and he goes like, and while I'm explaining like sort of where I'm at and like why I'm not really kind of, nothing's getting past just like a very sort of shit sketch stage, he was like listening, he was like, okay, yeah, okay. And he was like on his iTunes, he drags like 500 things from his iTunes just onto my hard drive, I was just doing that and I was like, what was that? And he was like, things I've made over the last couple of decades and from now on, whenever you start an idea, you have to start from one of these sketches in any form and he was like, and you can't look through them, you have to start from whichever the first one you click is. What is so powerful about that and what that liberated in my mind is that you're, you know, I dragged something in and sometimes it wouldn't be something that would be inspiring me in that moment or sometimes it would be something that I would never make or sometimes it would be something that I would never have been trying to pair with this vocal I'm working on. So it immediately puts you into a state of play because instead of it being like sat at the piano like, is that the best thing I've ever played? No, is that the best thing I've ever played? No, scrap it. It just puts you into a state of, well here's like loads and loads and loads of stuff and you like chip away and you go into a state of like, oh, well what would be interesting? Maybe if we slowed the whole thing down by 400% and filtered out to only these two frequencies or what if we like just looped the first beat at 160 BPM and had the frequencies like jumping up and down into different spots and so you're just, you're immediately chipping away at this big block of stone as opposed to like hoping that you're just gonna stumble across something. So your bar of inspiration instead of it being like, oh shit, is this the best thing I've ever made ever? It's more like inquisitive like, oh that's kind of interesting, maybe that's kind of getting into a more interesting place. And so you're much more prone to move forward I think. Yeah, it's a clever technique isn't it? Because it allows you, it triggers your play mode and you go into that and forget about the doubts that you have or self questioning or any of that. Exactly, yeah. Push to one side so you can move on to the next bit. And so I mean say when you heard the song that Benji worked with Delight and Montague on and you know you like that song, you know. But obviously it triggered another connection within you and then particularly maybe when you saw that Instagram version that she hosted. That touches me so much that I want to do something with that. And then is the first stage to then match it with a drone? Or match it with a drone? Yeah, match it with a drone which might lead to some melodies. Might lead to some melodies there. A drone may be a few small melodies. But the main thing is just creating something like the drone that you can then put the vocal in and be just moving the pieces around in an environment that feels like it's beginning to be reframed as opposed to it just being like anonymous. You're immediately stripped of the baggage of the original piece more easily, I think. Yeah. And do you have any examples of this song in that stage of development? I'm sure you've kept those or would you just move? That's just something that you're doing without necessary noting. Yeah, they'll they'll. Pull me out of this. It'll be interesting to hear how this then developed at each little stage possibly if you can. Yeah, so I mean, I think typically then I would like have a. so like I've just loaded up her. Okay. This is just playing on my leftus. So that's your actually playing up now? Yeah. It's like. It's a Serby like seeing like which rhythmic pockets she's encouraging because I think there's often there is often like a. in the same way that people's speech like we're talking about last time are leaning towards certain key signatures, I think, similarly like there are pockets that the rhythms and choices of her melodies lean towards in terms of drum beats and stuff. So then I would just try a bunch and make a bunch of different drum beats in this realm. I need to get some sounds at work here. And then in that realm once there's some sort of thing that feels right, rhythmically like it's highlighting the right ghost notes and stuff, then I'd probably start to play a piano or try and find something that can sort of frame the melody of it a bit more. And do you record it all or do you just keep playing and then start recording when you feel you're getting somewhere? I'm always recording because logic has this thing called capture. So if anything's midi and a lot of the time, you can set it up to the audio as well. It's actually always recording. So I don't actually ever hit record. I just play and play and play and then I hit capture when something good happens. Right. Yeah, I mean that's quite useful though, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, it means you're not consciously recording, but you have captured it. Totally. Totally. I get the impression that a lot of the process is improvisation, really. And that you're constantly fiddling around, waiting till it feels right. Yeah. Trying to stumble across accidents is a big thing as well. So just like trying to keep sort of playing in the arena of the song for long enough that an accident can happen is often what leads to the inspiration. And then further down the line, you start to hone it and start to hone in on different aspects of it that you want to tweak and get light and change. Yeah, exactly. And I sort of differentiate more and more and more in my process is like the difference between things that you need to protect your perspective on because they come from like the heart and the things that come from the head. So like, for example, at the end of this song, at the end of the process of working on it, Kiran and I spent quite a bit of time honing the like sonics of the drums to make sure they would not cry when we were playing them out and stuff like that. I in the past have spent so many hours doing that at the beginning of the process, caring about like if the drums not cry, when in reality I should be re-riding the whole chorus. The problem with that to me is that you've got a kind of finite amount of fresh heart perspective, I think, to work with. It does run out or at least you have to leave it for a long time before it can give time to like, rejuvenate. And so that is to be really protected to me, like how long you can work on a song. I mean, it's running out from the moment you start. I think like, to me with songs like I'm only trying to honour the way I felt when I first had this idea of what it could sound like. When I first got the rough shape of it and I was, "Oh my god, this could feel like this." That is essentially what I then spend the next few months trying to honour that feeling there. And obviously because we're human, your perspective gets warped and frazzled and massively affected by what you know you've done and you can see on the page that this and this is happening to you, you know, your bias beyond belief. And so trying to protect anything, like any part of the process that is technical or head or thing, I just try to avoid focusing on any of that until I feel like the heart of the song is there. Yeah. If you see what I mean. And I guess presumably you wouldn't have started to test these in the live environment until you were happy with where that feeling was at. Totally. I'm just saying how shit some of the ones that I were happy with are, if you see what I mean, like, I mean yes, but yeah, that like usually after a day of working on something I'm like, or even a cup, you know, I'll play things in a rave after working them for like two hours. And you can just mix out of it really quickly. It's really shit. And I'll like often have like, because I'm so loose with it, I'll like bounce a tune and then accidentally leave the click playing and stuff like that or like have all mistakes coming in. And I'll be playing stuff in rows in some section we'll come in. It's like a massively out of key vocal that I forgot to mute. And I'll be like, instead of mixing to another thing, but it's good to, it's a blessing to be able to try songs in there. It's kind of places. Yeah. I mean, that seems like a massive change compared to when we spoke to you before. You know that not only can you collaborate in person with people and come up with various different versions, but then you can play them and see how a crowd reacts, see how your friends react in that kind of situation as well. Which clearly for this song had a big impact. So I'm trying to work out which bits we should hear now because you've explained quite a lot already. And you've already explained that we had that club experience where you changed your mind and changed the way that the piano was working. So I guess the, I mean, the other thing that happened through working it, like when I was playing that version with George earlier that uses much more of the lighters, vocal like a lot of the time, not always, but sometimes the purest thing feels like if you can condense it into one line or two lines, which essentially this became like, there's a few other bits of our vocal, but essentially it's her saying, you know how to calm me down and then pull me out of this. And that's the journey of the song that I wanted to tell and purify as much as possible. So there was a, yeah, it took a second to try and strip it to its raw parts of storytelling there, I guess. And then there's just like, I do you know what sound is quite cool is when it gets to the, it's in this session, sorry, these are massive sessions. So there's four different sessions called Pull Me Out Of This and three of them say final one. And they're quite big. So they take and God knows how many alternatives inside each one of those. You know what though, I don't want to be the guys glorifying too much. They're like, I've got a thousand versions of this song. Do you know what I mean? I'm annoying when you hear people being too much like. Yeah, but in a way, maybe I would have thought that you don't want a thousand versions because that's another thousand decisions. Yeah, yeah, that's the worst, yeah. It's the worst position to be. No, I agree. It's much nicer when there are songs where you just kind of, the alchemy of them are presented more fully formed. But I really enjoy all versions of it. Like that, I think, is a big part of it. Like you can choose to become someone who goes, if it doesn't get there in the first two hours, I don't chase it. And there are a lot of great musicians who work that way and that is totally valid. And then there are also some people who have come to quickly, positively suspicious of it. And they only like the things that take months and months and months. Which I find precarious as a thought process, but there's definitely obviously great music has been made through every approach. But yeah, I'm a big fan of trying to embrace any way in which it can come. And like being down for the nine months, slow home as much as the one hour release of the next day thing. So this, since kind of every sound to varying degrees is almost always like built from a sample or a vocal generally, so you know, whether it's like the keys, layer, like those bits, but also I love making sounds that kind of sound quite simple, but from a really complex start points. So this in the breakdown, here we go, yeah. So this is a piece of music. Like kind of choral music. So if you then pitch that up, would it be seven, seven, seven turns from now? And then start slicing it. I love these sounds so much. So like in the breakdown, all of these sounds that are moving around. I just love how much animation they have because they're like so much information being repressed by the chop. So it's trying to, at the moment where it bursts through, you can tell it's got so much more to say than it's being allowed to say in the time it's given. And that feeling, I mean, this runs through sort of the tune from that point onwards, but all of those, because it starts to get like rhythmicized more. Oh, that stuff. This is what I love about sampling. I think it's so much, it's how often the thing that makes it is what you would never have, all the stuff aside the core information of like the note, like you would never have chosen to add the random, like chaos of people talking in the background of a vocal or you would never choose to add like the way the choir slides between the notes, but those like intricacies is what defines the sound, I think. And their elements that I think maybe only you would use in that way, you know, because you've got so many overlapping things and to try and get them, I mean, you are doing that to for your own interest, you know, just to keep things interesting. No, to articulate something. Yeah, like I think it's the sound that speaks, I mean, I think probably on a fundamental level, the reason why I like so many things to come from voices is because I don't know what I haven't thought about this before, but I don't think it would be like advanced psychology to say like that's obviously the most human thing we have. And so even if it then becomes a synth, a voice that's been like chopped and thinking into being a synth, to me has some depth to it that I can't get from a sine wave, usually. But yeah, I think it being born from a voice, that's the thing to me is like the songs, one having lots of voices in a more literal, like different people talking and singing and so on. But also I just love that every aspect of the DNA of the music is built from humans in other respects to you. Yeah. Fantastic. Well, you should move on. So maybe we should hear the end of Delilah and then the bit of that last voice, where it just talks about dancing. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And was it that section that you worked on with Kirin in terms of getting the drums? Yeah the drums throughout the whole thing make sure that the core transients are knocking in the right way. Just noted that there's a crash that's out of phase but we'll address that another day I think. [Music] I mean there's so many different things, so many different voices, so many different elements. Especially the contrast between when you're making that as a tune and including all those different elements, the random voices that they're not random at the same time because you've chosen them. When you're creating the music, do you have them already queued up ready to go? Oh no no. And when you're doing the board of room set or do you have them on certain keys that you can just treat. I think in sets or that they're in the music. So by that point they're already there and then at some point during the music various things, I think it's just kind of just over the course of working on a record, just like random things will end up on my phone or often when I'm like losing inspiration on a song. If I put another human somewhere in it, it reinvigorates it to me. I could hear it in the context of like not just myself which is the like most dangerous vacuum to get in. So I think that maybe is something to do with it. Yeah. So that's Delilah. The next song we're going to look at is Berwin. All that I got is you. We're going to take a quick break but we'll be back with that after this. So the next song we're going to look at is Berwin. All that I got is you and if you could place the master thread, that'd be great. Fuck the neighbors turn the music up. Who could give a fuck what they think? I'll show all of you more than every single sheet of Resla I've lived. I love you more than all the bombs I've seen the bottom off. With your hand and my hand, bombs up. So that's how it all starts. Who's is that voice who's saying fuck the neighbors? So that's Berwin. Yeah, he's something. That's Berwin. So that's Berwin. Yeah. He's a big brother of mine. A door. Berwin. And that was something that he. Yeah. He's a video he posted, I think. He's wearing like a white wife beer and he's looking up in the imagery of him. Of what he's saying, I just found really moving. And the record as a whole, I think, is about this. Well, sort of handful of things, but it's like a sort of, to me, a sort of journey into a sort of claustrophobic, codependent sort of relationship thing, which isn't like, yeah, in a non-healthy way, I guess. And I love how his lyrics to me, like, the love in them sounds so sincere, but there does seem something isolating about them, like it. I mean, this might just be me projecting onto them, but particularly twins with the all that I got as you, vocal as well, like it just tells this, like, it just feels like these people who are isolated from everything in a way that is beautiful, but also in a way that is sort of scary and quite dangerous, I think. It's walking that cliff edge, is it worth between the two? Yeah. Exactly. It's like another one that had. Actually, no, I think that, yeah, the first version of this, let me see. This kind of knew itself from pretty early doors. The first version, beyond a drone, was this. Different key. Ah, no, not even that close. [laughter] Oh, no, that sketch, too. Hold on. Give me a chance, John. [laughter] [music] Yeah, the thing I think I realised I wanted to do in this was making it so that the kick drum was just providing like a rhythmic frame rather than telling any sort of emotion. I really, I tried a bunch of different drum stuff, like there was even one where we built it all out of the, where's this hold on? Yeah. There was this where it's like the rhythmic palette is all built out of that table. [music] I mean, most of the drums you record are made out of that table, but just less obviously. Which I like the world of, but it's like it was instructing the emotion a bit too much. What I realised, I think, was that just that vocal from Dermat saying, "Well, they're good as you." And they're like, "I'm playing any different key, but the piano, it was one of those ones that sort of wanted to have just the frame of the kick showing you where the rhythm was, nothing instructing the emotion and nothing trying to make it dance or anything beyond, just like, here's a kick, here's a pulse around this, just these three chords that one line and Bowen's poem, and then bits of words from Kyle as well later. But, yeah, so I guess this was a journey to reduction on this one. There's lots of, like, these sounds here I really like, which is, all of these kind of like, they sort of sound to me like a wind section of an orchestra being strangled. I love these sounds." So that's built from, do you know the song "Plarap" that you can get on an iPad? I don't. It's really great, because I don't actually don't know if it's as known as it should be. But the, what is sick, I think, about iPads is that they allow for the physical interaction that you're so restricted in not having a touch screen on a laptop. So you can suddenly go back to being able to move multiple parameters at once as opposed to this very archaic mouse system that we still use. Yeah. If you know what I mean. So it's like this thing that you can have a sample and you can see the waveform. And so like, you can move around the waveform with your hands. Right. So you're touching it on the screen like that. And so you can then, I think we dragged in like a sort of roomy guitar solo that a friend of ours had played. And then you can like switch up and down the octaves. That's like Jack Parisi sliding around through the waveform and then me like going plus one, minus one, minus one, minus one, plus one on the octaves. So it's like glitching up and down. But yeah, it's really good that thing because you can be expressive with it in a way that's really hard to be with a lot of the sounds I like to work with. Yeah. And yet, I mean, when I watch you use your laptop and use your keyboard, you were a master. And I'm always amazed by how you managed to work it because it seems that within a tiny, a millisecond, you can switch it from working on the drums to playing a piano piece and adjusting various different things, adding in different elements all at the same time on the same instrument basically your laptop. Whereas, you know, if you were Rick Wakeman or something, you'd be surrounded by all these different instruments and orders of bringing all those different colors. But now it is that efficiency that you have and facility. Is that something that you've honed or is it something that has just built up over years of practice? Yeah, no, I think, I mean, it is, as you say, this is like very much my instrument, I think. And so I practice it. I mean, the best way to practice is obviously just doing. You can't sort of practice how to become like with a piano or any other instrument. I had a moment where I tried to use Ableton because Ableton is great and I do use it for some things. And I realized how much I was taking for granted about how much of the language of this I speak fluently and I just don't have to think. And so I kind of went back. And also when I was trying to use Ableton, it's because Logic had an impromantid a bunch of Ableton had that Logic has now since caught up with anyway. So it's all good. But yeah, in that moment I did realize that there was like everything I did on Ableton I was having to think about and do. And in the realm of like this stuff, it was just so, I realized that that was the instrument that I've spent probably more 10,000 hours on the piano or drums or any of the other ones. Yeah, I love it. And so that, no, I guess that started with just trying to achieve a simple thing which was probably just record yourself playing piano. Yeah, I use that. Oh, well, ah, can you use this? Yeah, that is a funny thought. Yeah. Well, it's amazing. And all those different things that you do, those live recordings in effect, you know, the piano. that's all just you on your laptop sat in a particular location. You're using time constructively, so you're at a station waiting for a train. You can also play with your own music. Totally, totally. I've said this before, but I think that the same thing we were talking about earlier was getting into states of play. I think the reason why I like making music out and about, and particularly on methods of transport, is because by the nature of being on the train, you're already ticking a box. You're already doing a job you need to wear. You're getting to the place you need to get to. Just by the nature of sitting still, you're getting something done. By the time you open up your laptop, I think your mind is in a state of play, because it's like, "Oh, well, we're already getting something done, but well, I'm here as well. Just try messing around with this a bit and got a 45 minutes here, so I might as well just see." Or even I love the tube ones where you've got like 12 minutes. Because then you could, all you could possibly do is play. There's no other option. You can't try and get like in 12 minutes on a crowded tube carriage. You can't, so you just kind of open it up and just sort of try random things. You wouldn't usually try. What headphone are you wearing for that port? Apple headphones, always. Wired, Apple headphones. Wired, right? Because the delay in the, we haven't sorted out the airports to not have a latency. Right. If you're playing drums on the keyboard. Other, is there a noise cancellation option on those? No, but that's what I'm thrilled there's not. Right. You wouldn't want there to be. So you want to be able to hear around you as well at the same time? Yeah. Because that kind of informs in a very literal way, but also in a more abstract way, I think just the music. I don't like being in a vacuum on any sense. So yeah, it inspires me like seeing people and hearing people and seeing the humanity around it as well as more than anything else. And it's definitely reflected in the music. I mean, that's one of the reasons why there is this rich sound world. It's in your work, I think, because clearly it's such an important part of everything. It being surrounded by all these sounds. I mean, say, if we move further on in Berlin, there's a second section of the song with another voice. Who's that person? So this is Kyle, who I saw and put on, I found you on the first album. And Kyle is someone who's stayed in touch and is, yeah, an absolute sweetheart. And he sent me a voice note kind of mid last year in which he said. Still winter, the only warmth and running together, you full color, howling life into a dead moon. The ghosts born on our lips whirling together in lantern light. This is not the end of the world. So I mean, he just sent that to you. That was because I was saying to him, the. I mean, we were just talking about that was more like in the context of me being like, "Hey, you've been keeping up to. " And he's like, "This is going on. I wrote this pern the other day." And he's like, "Red it out." And I've spaced out the lines much more. So it sounds much more spacious and performative, if you know what I mean. But I love the difference in the connotations of the way. It's born on our lips whirling together in lantern light. The way Carl speaks and then. Fuck the neighbors down the musical. Like it's so. Fuck the fuck with this thing. Oh, like I love how different those humans are. And so putting them on the same music to me, I really loved the feeling it gave me because it felt like the equivalent of like a drastic tempo change in genres, which almost like half ways are a song, but just by changing the style of speech that comes in the first and second half, yeah, big ups, Carl. Yeah. And they do different things. Totally, yeah. And the two contrasted, give a weight. You know, Carl brings a weight that Bowen already has given it, but it's a different kind of weight. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's a fascinating combination. But we are conscious of time, you know, because you need to go places. So we do want to look at another song. Do we? Do we? Do we okay to move on from Bowen or to the thing? Totally, yeah. So the next song we're going to look at is Kelly, End of a Nightmare. We'll take another break and then we'll be back to look at that one. Beautiful. The next track we're going to look at from actual life three is Kelly, End of a Nightmare. Take it away Fred. Take it away from the master. How are you Fred? I've not seen you for so long. Can we please see each other? Yes, I miss you. So the take hold of me refrain is from wet. Is that right? That's from Kelly, yeah, from wet. Who were wet? Well, so yeah, I know Kelly, who's the singer from wet, who's a friend of mine. And yeah, she's got this unbelievable voice. So that's from, she sent me a bunch of like voice notes that she'd recorded from the year of just sort of things that she found herself singing. And so this was made out of one of those, just those two lines. I mean, there was many more lines, obviously, but the take hold of me and you're near the end of a nightmare. This would have been in about, yeah, August. And so that lyric just felt like a thing that was really important to happen in the record at that moment. Because also, I think to me, this, it's kind of their trilogy to me, like they're all kind of about the same thing. And they're all for me, charting like the same story. And so I wanted to have, yeah, just her saying you're near the end of a nightmare felt like a good, important thing to say at this point. But yeah, her voice is obviously just, like it's so, it's like ASMR almost the way she sounds to me. Like it's so wraps around my head with its intimacy. But the thing I was actually, I realized the thing I was mentioning earlier, you mentioned a sense, didn't you? Yeah, I can show you that here. So on this, there's this thing that is, oh yeah, it also doesn't totally unprovoked modulation halfway through, which I really, because it's all in this kind of role. I had this thing with this when I was first working on it. The thing we're talking about of, of like finding the drones and stuff for that. And she felt really beautiful in that key and in that pitch of her voice. But she also had this thing that happened when it went to here. And that same line, when she sang "Take Hold of Me" in the old key and it was, "Take Hold of Me, Take Hold of Me." It felt dark and like something was taking hold of you that you didn't want it to. But then when she was here, it felt like the same lyric had a different meaning. And it felt like a thing that something you wanted to take hold of you was beginning to lift you up. But what was most interesting about that to me is that they've only felt that. So I spent a while trying to work, which key the song was better in. And I realized that they both only gave that feeling in relation to each other. So you had to hear both keys to feel that journey of what the take hold of me, Lerick Men. If I just played it in one key to someone and they never even knew about the other one, it didn't carry the thing. So then it was like, "Okay, right. What if I tried to do both keys in one song?" And then there was this moment where shout out Marco Parisi, the other Parisi brother who I make all of this music with. I had this lovely bit of clarity of like, "Let's do it. How we would do it if we were playing it." And mixed up between songs and just like not try and do some, because sometimes in tunes we'll try and do some, you know, because it's a minus third modulation. It's a really awkward one. If you were to do this in like a Debussy kind of concerto, he would dedicate 24 bars to like, "Now we can do it. Now we can do it. Now to find a way." I mean, that was shit. But like, you'd find some way of getting there, and navigating through the keys so that you could move up those keys. But to me, this is one of my favourite moments in the whole record because it instead, you're in this whole realm of B flat major and then like you would be playing it in a set, you're in drums, just four bars of drums and your minor resets and then it announces a totally new key. And she's like presented in this new realm, but it's so like, I love how like it's not, it's the opposite of every part of classical music I've ever done with it. That's like the most banned thing and unprepared modulation is like, that's the work of the devil. I love how like, crassly it's presented. But yes, it's not a language, isn't it? of this world, the world of the rave or this world of dance music. Totally. And how does that relate to that sense that you were talking about? So there's this sense here that I really love because I use it in a similar way on another tune as well. It's a nice sounding song. Yeah. The reality. The reality of Fred's environment. So this is a voice from a French pop record and then pitched up and just started to slice it up. And it becomes this like, which in the context of the. But that's another sample, isn't it? Yeah. So that is a good example to me of one that like in some hits of it are really purely like just pure, but there's certain moments where all of her intricacies like force their way through in this little chop they're given and it gives it so much more human emotion to me. Sorry, I'm a little confused. So which is the synth bit? The synth is. Well, it becomes a synth. Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I call this a synth. Right, in its core it's not exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've created your own synth sound. Yeah. That's what most sounds are used originally once upon a time, but then they become so. Yeah. You can kind of do the same thing with drums sometimes as well. I don't know if I've got an example of that on here, but like. I mean, you know, because the reality of it is that you can kind of make any sound from any sound. It's about what things put you on an interesting journey to the sound you want to make, I think often. And yeah, so like starting with voices is always like just my favorite way. Yeah, yeah. Talking of changing the topic slightly, but talking of rhythm and tempo and beats and you listen to the album and also say, you know, if we were to go and watch one of your sets, you cover a lot of different styles of dance music really. You know, so say with Kelly, it's more of a breakbeat type thing and you know, someone that is more house and you don't limit yourself. It's all there for you. You know, you can use whatever you want. And definitely from this conversation, you're choosing beats that help articulate the emotions of the songs as much as anything else. It's not like. I'm sure. You're trying to create a certain kind of bang in the middle of something. It's all part of articulating the emotion and the feeling that you're trying to get across. So do you have any particular criteria or is there somewhere you would never go? Oh, right. No. Because you seem to draw from it all. Yeah. No big, John Bass, breakbeat, handbag house, will it? Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think there is anywhere. Because I think sometimes certain producers and I guess certain musicians note. They have a certain palette. They'll mess around with it a bit, but they're not going to go beyond it. Yeah. No, I don't understand the thing of. I think maybe it was in dance music, there was a thing of like hyper genre and then even sub-genreers and people being like, "I only listen to this specific sub-genre of this one thing." But I don't feel like that really exists now. I just think everyone's grown up listening to everything because it's not just the records that are in your parents' collection that dictates what you can hear now, which is to me way more exciting because you don't attach your identity to one micro scene. You attach it to some random, cosposh, the things that you found yourself being drawn to because of all of your life experiences. So yes, I love the way I think everyone is increasingly seeing music and being very open in that way. Yeah, that is great. Is there anything else we need to hear from Kelly? You did want to talk about my stuff a little bit. Have we got time to do that? Yeah, for sure. I wonder if it's in this fashion or the session. Now it's only me that needs the same stuff. See, look, I can be here while you're in that room. To me, this record is just important to the whole sort of three albums because it's like it's a sort of summary of everything that in a very sort of peaceful room where all of the different samples, we're not all of them, but a huge number of the different things that have been in the last three records can kind of all in the same way that you hear like Bowen and Kyle next to each other and see what those voices do when they're sat next to each other. I was very struck by how much I felt the voices differently by hearing them all in the context of each other, which you'll see what I mean here. It is smoking chaos. (laughter) ♪ For any time, for any time ♪ ♪ For any time, for any time ♪ ♪ For any time to move, now for me ♪ ♪ For every time, for any time ♪ ♪ Maybe you want a grab a coffee ♪ ♪ For any time, for every time ♪ ♪ For any time to move ♪ For anybody who's been listening to all three albums, they will immediately get a lot of those references and know in its parts of the world that you've created, which is really exciting. And for anybody who hasn't come across for three yet, there'll still be excited when they hear all these elements, I think. But it's like Easter eggs or something within a film or a. And in a way, I've taken on that little run of emotion through the albums again. Even when we just hear "I Found You", takes us back to Kylo. And then we're still living the journey, just as you have been in a way, you know, we're going through that process. What happens next for you then? So if this is a trilogy, just this mean all of that is gonna go? I don't know. I definitely. I mean, there's a record I'm working on with Brian that is part of this story, 'cause it was made at the same time. It's a slightly different type of album, but it's definitely part of the same story. But I think it's just like I needed to sort of draw a line in the sand, just because, as I say, they're all kind of like about the same thing and it's very intense process of making it. And so it's not like reached some like over at the end. It's like I just need to draw a line in the sand to give myself permission to breathe from it for a second. And then I'm sure I'll make another actual life record, but I'm just gonna pause from that particular type of introspection for a second, because I don't think it was hitting a point where it wasn't gonna be healthy, if you said I mean. I don't know, I've got a bunch of ideas. This is where like collaboration is such a godsend. Like there's a record I've made with Scrillex as well, or at least we're working on, and there's more stuff with Fortehr and there's a bunch of other things. I'm gonna try exploring in those rounds for a second. Yeah, because I think that would be the best thing to do. And in a way, I guess you've been doing that a little bit between these. For sure, with the USB EP and the various different singles, one of collaborations, which have always been really exciting, and that's one of the great things. In such a short space of time, you've done an awful lot of stuff and explored various different ideas, and also reached out and worked with so many different people. Such a friendly guy. But it's really exciting, and I love the way that you can have both bring people up and work with people who are bigger as well. It's an even playing field for everybody, because they're just all working together with you. Totally, no, I don't see. Everyone's so similar once you're just in a room, and you sort of baggage that you're attached to someone and being a big name or anything else like that, just disappears straight away. Yeah, it's brilliant, because in a way, you bring a bit of shine to each other. Yes, definitely. That's the main thing that is most fun about it to me, is you learn it like a forward, your license to explore a bit further into a corner that you wouldn't feel comfortable to do on your own, or sometimes way further. Yeah, like the whole record with Brian is like a totally different realm for all of the actual life samples to exist in, and he empowers that in it, definitely. Interesting, can't wait to hear it. Is that a 2023/24? That's. I quite want to put it out early next year, because I don't want it to be too separate from these three records, but. because as I say, they are part of the same story to me. - Fred, thanks so much for welcoming us into your home. - I appreciate it very much. - Do this episode of Take Notes and we have been filming, hopefully, people can watch all of that on YouTube or going according to plan and see this amazing setup you have and when we're sat in these lovely wooden chairs, but beside us is the piano that you've been playing and on top of that, a couple of CDJs and a pioneer mixer. And I just loved that combination. This fairly old looking piano, how is this piano? - This is probably about 100 years old. - Right, and then fairly recent technology on top of it, but I did do that. You know, you have some fun DJ playing piano a lot. - There's been a lot of that. There's been a lot of that. I also feel like at this moment, I should shout out the two beautiful Albanian men who helped us carry this piano up these stairs. They're both about five foot one and the strongest men I've ever seen in my life. Me and my flatmate Hen, Hen is six eight. I'm six four and we had, we were trying to, I mean, these kind of pianos are an absolute art form to move and so we had this moment where we were like, we were like, okay, there's no way we're getting this anywhere near and we called this Kenner and Moeville's company and we stood outside the front door and these two men walked around the corner and we looked at each other and we were like, no way. No way. This isn't getting moved an inch, right? And these two guys cumulatively the same site as me and the same height as me and Hen. One of them had it on his head. Well, I was most beautiful art form I've ever seen in my life and they carried this thing all the way up through flights of stairs and me and Hen were just there. You know when you're like there, you know that the most helpful thing you can do is nothing. They just, yeah, figure out those beautiful men. Well, that is amazing. Fantastic. We will just keep you for a little bit longer, but the two questions we ask everybody who comes on the podcast you've answered them before but you might have a different answer this time. One is the tech thing, a piece of equipment. I think last time it was your phone basically because that was the first time I saw that. That was the edge of the cheek coat. Yeah, but it was good because you'd create it so much especially of actual life using your phone. Yeah, I would say, oh maybe it's that expert sleepers, spectral conquest thing, the thing that you can draw the frequencies in. That is a very beautiful tool for sound designing and just shaping it. Yeah, the other thing would just be sampling. All of the sounds I make that people ask me, but how did you do that? And it's kind of always just like samples, like it's not unbelievable intricate sound design. It's more just like taking a sound that's already unbelievably intricate and if anything trying to simplify it. So it can have some sort of audit to it. When you record it, it's a lot of you said, you record a lot of your job sounds came from the table. When you're recording that table, how are you recording it? With my phone. So that's with your phone. So you just put it, do you have the phone on the table? Yeah, there's a big difference to the sound in it. If it's like with the phone almost next to your thumb, you essentially get pure transients. The way that a compression algorithm works and the iPhone is amazing in terms of how much directionality or rather how much, because it compresses the sound loads no matter what. So if you put the iPhone a foot away from your hand as you press on the table, it's massively compressing the room sounds. Like it's going to be squeezing that delay that you have. I wonder if I can demonstrate it with this mic. Like the difference. Obviously this is really simple, but like, you can hear the transient of that. And then, yeah, like that's obviously non-compressed version of it. But what the iPhone does is it then squeezes that whole sound together. So the one that's close, you have a really tight transient on and the one that's further away, it squeezes the sustain of the sound. And those things make a big difference in terms of the emotional feeling of it. If you allow that room to breathe a lot of the time, the sound innately feels more human and lived in, and you hear it, and you can relate it to things in your life consciously or unconsciously. That's a confusing and roundabout way of saying not a lot. I know what I think is a lot there, because how you capture it. I mean, it's funny, it seems really mundane, but how you capture that. And then, how you get it into your laptop to then fiddle around it. Because it's all speed. You're interested in speed, so you can get something that you're interested in and start playing with it immediately. So are you air-dropping it from the phone to your laptop? Exactly. And you can get on it and start using your spatial awareness things. Yeah, yeah. And start playing around. But then afterwards, you can reconfigure them according to what-- Yeah, it's trying to protect that expiring moment, the perspective thing we were talking about earlier. That's why I'm interested in moving quickly, because in that phase of making a song, it does matter, because you lose your clarity of heart, I think, after a bit. What's the other one? The other is advice. So we ask for-- If you've got any advice to pass on, or you've received advice that you would like to share. Yeah, I don't know what advice I would have. Maybe the Brian thing I already said-- take hers and claim it as mine. I don't know. I think the stuff you're saying about keeping that heart feeling is pretty important, because it's the expenditure of creative energy, and how quickly or how long we can make it last, it's kind of important, because whatever creative and endeavor it is, if you get sick of it and fed up with it, you move on and forget it and feel depressed and annoyed. No, you've lost something. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is a hard feeling that one. I've lived in it a lot. But no, that is for sure important, 100%. Fred, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me, John. Appreciate it, Fred. Great to see you in your own environment. Wow. Thank you for coming. Super upset. We should let everybody hear one more song from the album, a kind of outro piece. I mean, I did think maybe we could use Winnie and Demi. That's a similar logical one. And this is it then. And this is Winnie, end of me, round of things up. Thanks again, Fred. Thanks so much, John. Appreciate it. Yeah. All right. 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