[Music] Hello and welcome back to the Money Trench, the music industry podcast with me, Mark Subeland. After our trip to Scotland last week we are back in London for another long, lingering look at the business of music. So let's get cracking. The Money Trench is supported by SoundOn. SoundOn is ticktocks all in one music, distribution and promotion platform, the artists and labels, go to SoundOn.clogal to find out more and check out the SoundOn track of the week in the TMT newsletter. And the Money Trench is also supported by Tixle, the honest ticket exchange and wait this helping artists own their audience and protect fans from tout. Go to tixle.com to find out more and check out the Tixle gig of the week in the TMT newsletter. And of course we support Earth Percent, the Music Industry's Climate Foundation, check earthpercent.org to find out more. And this week we are joined by one of the most successful music business ex at the last 30 years. She's been a lawyer, she oversaw the unstoppable rise of the new BNG in the UK and she now runs her own company investing in and managing catalogue's across publishing and recording and representing some of the greatest songs ever written. Please welcome the founder and CEO of Bella Fagura, Alexi Kuismith. Good morning Mark, thank you. Hello Alexi, welcome to the. Generous introduction. Well we put all the stops for you Alexi obviously. But I'm welcome to the show, how's your music week been? It's been really good so far. I mean apart from the weather today which is shocking, it's the worst of Britain and November wet, snowing and raining. All the time. But a good week so far, we're halfway through aren't we? We are, if you've been out on the award circuit. I'm old and grumpy, I'm not so good at all this anymore. My those big days are behind me but not yet, I'm gearing up for it. I mean I'm gearing up for what's going to be a casualty to my liver which is December so I'm sort of getting myself prepared. Fair enough, very wise. Very wise, I went to the first Christmas party of the season last night so. Did you, yeah, I was invited to that one. Sadly I couldn't go but I could that I would have loved that one. It was a good one but so. Yeah, I heard. You know, when you've got a podcast to do the next morning, it's wise to leave before the end, that's all I'm saying. But great stuff, let's see what the rest of the music business has been up to now with our round up of the latest industry headlines. And first up, music week reports that the government will go ahead with a ban on reselling gig tickets for profit. The move comes after a consultation on secondary ticketing and a call from dozens of artists who act including Doa Leapur, Colt Play and Sam Fender. The move has been welcomed by companies across the industry, including Live Nation, Ticketmaster and Tixle. And Alexie, you're not in live music but I know you're alive, music enthusiast, what do you think of this move? Well, I think it's a short answer to the big question is, it's a good thing. I'm glad to see this government taking the seriously. I'm glad to see that they have a focus and a listening to the music industry and our creators and performers who are so important. It's been all over the news. You can't turn on radio for anything else without it. So, and so I have been following it. Glad that doing it, I'd like to know. I mean, we have to see the legislation, we have to see the detail, devil's always in the detail. There was an interesting thing made me laugh yesterday, which was someone said, "Well, it would be terrible for the touts and I thought, no shit." Well, no one think of the touts. Because, you know, if you get on the list, trust road of sort of, you know, commerce, growth, you know, free for all. But it's going to be the details. So, how far does this go? Do they chuck the baby up with the bath water, which sometimes happens with sort of over-unnest regulation and legislation? I think though, in essence, a really good thing. I mean, I read today they're deciding what the cap will it be capped at the actual price, or will there be a cap on a resale profit? I read somewhere, maybe they're considering 30%. So, that's going to be very important how that happens, but essentially a very good thing. Yeah, I mean, it is bad news for touts. Is this the end of ticket test? And you think also you're just going to go underground? Well, I'm putting it in these. like some big coats are going to be back outside of venues. I think there's always a counter isn't there. There's always a clever entrepreneur somewhere who finds a way, particularly with technology today, who may find themselves, they go underground, or it's always hard to complete and defeat these things. But at least, if you. I think what used to upset me, or does upset me, is reading these stories from people who'd bought something on one of these secondary selling sites, and they'd bought a package, and you know, everything to them. He probably was their big treat of the year coming to London, hotel, gig ticket this and this, and then these companies didn't. They were kind of selling on before they had the right, you know, it's like that guy who saw paintings that way. Very similar thing, and bits of Ponzi's chemist. And then they didn't deliver the tickets, and then they were also hugely inflated. And if it gets things like that under discipline, under control, that would be a great thing. I don't think you'll ever. They'll always find a way around it, someone. And then people will buy tickets and flip them on the black market, of course. I mean, back to the old days, I remember going on tour with a very famous artist. I wasn't on tour with him. I was. I carried the tea bags around, but. And we saw the drummer selling his allowance in the market in Rome. You know, so. Fair enough. Well, there you go. Drone obviously wasn't paying enough, I think. Or we definitely not. That tells us, but. Yeah, I mean, do you like to see the government intervene in music? I think when they intervene correctly with. When they intervene correctly informed by people who know what they're talking about, you know, well informed decisions, yes. And I think so, and I think. I mean, I don't know if we're going to talk about it today, but obviously copyright, AI, the value of copyright, protection, copyright. I and my company invests very large sums of money into beautiful catalogs, which we then work very hard to maintain and grow. And if that is cannibalized in any way, you know, that's really bad news. Yeah. Well, that's. Maybe for another podcast. I suspect we will talk about that later, but in the meantime, next up, music business worldwide, as news of the circuit group and create music group launching a new music investment fund, a circuit capital will have $500 million to play with, and plans to invest in catalogs, record labels, and other music-driven venues, especially in the electronic music space. Alexi, this is very much your area. Is this more competition for you? Oh, there's always more competition. I mean, they probably don't think we're competition. Why not? Because you know, they're American, they got loads of money. I mean, we have plenty of money, too, but maybe a different attitude to things. I've been watching them with interest for a long time. I think they're really, you know, they're smart investors. I don't know why people think money's dumb. There is some dumb money around, but on the whole, this is pretty clever money. And they know what they're doing. It's great for the music industry. It's great. And talking about the value of IP and the value of copyright and songs and recordings is the clever money wants to invest in it, wants to be in it, doesn't want to be in commercial property anymore. It wants to be in music. And that's very, very good. That's a big shift, isn't it? Because 20 years ago, outside capital was not queuing up to invest in the industry. Not at all. Well, I say not at all. That's not correct because KKR came into BMG 2.0 and I think it was 2000 and date, which was relatively early when you look at the private equity involvement in the big music companies today. But I mean, they and Hartwick had a very clear vision. And it was a brilliant one as it turned out, which was, I'll just go sideways on that, because I'll finish the point, which was they identified there was a lot of distress in the music industry companies weren't hadn't prepared for the digital revolution. And as Hartwick used to say, there were broken planes flying in the air and you can't fix them up there. And that's why they went on this sort of big acquisition roll-up. There's sort of a lot of opportunity and it turned out a brilliant one. Sorry, back to the point about creative music. No, it's great to watch. And I think, you know, there's plenty of business out there. There's plenty to do. It is very competitive. The, you know, we see a lot. We don't do that much because, you know, we say we're a Ferrari garage. There are only so many vintage Ferrari's and we're very curated and particular. But we also get blown out the water on valuations too. You know, there's a lot of money around and some of it's cheaper than our money. We have private equity money, by the way, as well, which is, you know, pricing, in its sense, but very good quality and there's lots of it. So we can do anything. But I think, I think watching them, I mean, there is something specific I was excited to read about this morning having raised this one because there is something I'd like to talk to them about. So I was like, right now is exactly my moment to get in touch as they, you know, Bourgeois Bravo, you know, well done on this and also, by the way, would you be interested in exploring X? So yeah. Okay, and I can expect to call from you, but I mean, they're targeting electronic music. We had Cam Blackwood on the podcast last week who's looking at producers and songwriters. Is it important to have a kind of specialism in this sector? I think is it specialism, genre specific? We're more genre agnostic, but it's contemporary. I think what if you look at us, it's quality, it's class, it's successful, curatable. And I think like for us, we, I began Balla Fagore with a very simple thing. I wanted to have my own publishing company and I felt, you know, learnt so many things at BMG, which was one of the greatest professional experiences in my life, but also having been a lawyer and then having worked in a Virgin and EMI records prior to that. And source records prior to that and IRS records, which is where I began. And having seen and learnt so much over the years and I just went after I left BMG, you know, I had to suddenly come up with a new career plan. I wasn't expecting to be unemployed at 50, scratching my head, you know. And I thought that I'm going to create my own thing, trying to be an entrepreneur and build my own thing. And bring all this, everything I've learnt to do well and all the things I've learnt to do better or not do again.
and bring it together. I just felt that there was a gap in the market for a Ferrari garage publishing company. And then it was like, well, how do we go about this? And with my business partner, Nila, she was head of investments at BMG. We've worked together a very long time now. We started to put this together and then Masters came along because opportunity presented itself, which was David Gray, who wanted to do something with his catalog. And it was like, absolutely, we can do that too. But it goes back to this sort of quality Ferrari. Do we love it? Do we believe we can do something? Are we the right home for it? Well, I'm not sure if you're going to dabble in this next thing, but our final story, Reuters reports that Baby Shark is all grown up and has launched an IPO on the Korean Stock Exchange, shares, soared on Pinkfung's debut, giving it a market cap of almost $400 million. Alex, I guess this shows the value of music and IP. Does it? However annoying it may be. I mean, it absolutely does, but also particularly interesting because children and children music is huge. An enormous, I hate to use the special asset class, but it is. Let's never forget this is artwork art that we deal with. But I mean, I remember back in 2018, somebody who'd been in YouTube, in Universal said to me, do you know what the biggest thing on YouTube is in the world? And I was like, what? Adele or whoever it was at the time. And he said, it's Baby Shark. Yeah, I watch YouTube video of all time. All time. And also the interesting thing with the IPO, I think, isn't it? Aren't they trading at 60% above what they said? It's formidable, isn't it? Bravo to them. Well done. I mean, you can hear there's about a million parents sort of screeching an agony as another generation of Baby Sharkers. And there's a baby fin, isn't there? They have an offshoot from it. They have launched other things, apparently. It's not just about Baby Shark, but I'm guessing that's a large part of their business. But clearly, but also they sent out, I can't remember the chairman's name or the CEO, but he was saying, it's all about reinvesting in more and growing it and future assets, more programs, more content, which I said, there's another billion parents screeching an agony in a corner. But, yeah. Would you ever invest in music like that? Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Not sure there is any other music like that. I think Pepper Pig for Hasbro, of course, you know, was the, you know, they clearly wanted that IP. I remember Pinggu. I remember my generation, materialized by Pinggu. Well, we're the same generation, I think. Dreaming of murdering Pinggu was love a bit of Pinggu. Come on. Excellent. Well, thanks, Alexi. And now it's time for this. The Money Trench PPL Start of the Week. Yes. This week our supporters PPL have been crunching the numbers on Robby Williams. Alexi Belafagura, Repsent Guy Chambers. Of course, we've co-wrote many Robby songs and he guesses on his top songs. I should know exactly the top song. It's let me entertain you. It's not actually no. There are three guy co-wrote songs in the top five. So, feels angels and rock DJ. Oh, interesting. Because it's usually anywhere between so feel angels. Let me entertain you. Sort of the intermix, don't they? Yeah. So, yeah. So, that's interesting. Do you know that angels is the closing song at the Munich, October Fest. Sort of 60,000 people dressed in later, who's singing angels in a German accent. It's quite a surreal thing. And I was always curious to our guys, how much do we collect in performance from that and have Gamer paid up? But brilliant, isn't it? I was in Vietnam. Sorry, I'll cut me out if you don't like it. I was in Vietnam when we were in this snake wine bar, like dive. And there were group of people massacring angels on the karaoke machine. It is one of those songs, isn't it? And I put that in our investment, these are our investors of why this catalog was so important. And I was like this song, it's just played everywhere. It's sung everywhere before every wedding. You name it. You name it. Angels is up there. Yeah, you hear it. Wonderful. Wonderful. Good investment. But now let's not sit and wait. Let's talk to our guest, Alexi Koryse-Mithal, Bella Fagura. Alexi, I remember talking to you when you first set up, Bella Fagura, you know, three years in. Four, actually, well, we're three years trading, but we raised, we got our investor 14th and November 2021. Probably about when I spoke to you, is it? Maybe. And that's when we agreed the terms and then it took a few months to get that going. And then we sort of opened the shop door for business early 22. Yeah. Well, it looked funny, outside it looks like it's going very well. Well, you're happy with how it's sung up. Yeah, I mean, it's the best thing I ever did in my life personally and selfishly and professionally, but it's also, I love this business. It's very hard because we're learning as we go as well. We have lots of experience in different areas, but this complete business as it is, you know, a record with these valuable catalogs and also you see streaming just happens. Because neither should I both left BMG around the same time, and to 2017, early 18, and then streaming boom since then. So we didn't experience a lot of the development, evolution with pricing, sort of metadata and how that plays into the data, et cetera, et cetera, collections and really the role of DSP, these play today, just supply chain has just changed. And so we've had to learn an enormous amount since then. And so it's learning and doing and making mistakes all at the same time. And, but it's fantastic. It's the thing I'm proud of, and it's the thing I love it. I get up every day, super excited about it. And stress, yeah, I mean, I say to people, you know, if you're going to start a business in your 50s, I tell you what's not for the faint heart of, I just don't have the energy I used to have. And I'm grumpy now. And, you know, before I could go out and all night and sleep to it, I can't do that. I have to be in bed by my bedtime. And you know, fair enough, I must try that. But, but I mean, you say that, but you've clearly got a lot of energy for new things. You've just announced an expansion into the US with Gary Gersh, a man who signed a vana, no less as your chairman. What are the opportunities you're seeing on that side of the pool? Well, we, it's, it's actually a lot, but there was a very clear brief. We, we needed a chair for our board. And we have institutional investors and we do everything very properly. And we were sort of talking to technical because you get people are very technical chair people. But actually what we wanted, we were, we wanted, if we're going to achieve our goals and reach target, we have to crack the America market. We have to be doing deals in America because they're just bigger. And we have investors and they want you to deploy very large sums of money, ideally in good bite-sized chunks as opposed to lots and lots of little deals. And to do that, we, we have to crack America. And I have a good network, but I don't have a great network. And so the brief was really successful US industry veteran. Something like that. I don't think Gary liked that. You seem to have found one. And, and then Gary came along. And, uh, I, I, yeah, I mean, it took five minutes. He came in and he was in London, came for coffee and we just thought he's terrific. And he is. And I, to give an example, so I used to go to America and do meetings and we found it, you know, quite difficult, you know, you know, people and you. And then when I had a week with Gary and L.A. recently, it was just a different thing. I've never done eight meetings in one day in Los Angeles. He's relentless, you know, he's, he's relentless. He's been very successful. He only knows about being very successful. So he sees everything through this is going to be very successful. And he brings that energy to us. It's also just great to have him. He's, he's a sort of mental. He loves to share his experience. Good and bad. I mean, he's very funny. He's story about not signing L.A. and Del Rey. It's not all, yay, I'm brilliant. And I was, it's also, you know, I've been a schmuck and I made some bad mistakes. But he shares this with the whole team and he's very open with everybody. And like, our sync guy was just out in L.A. and you just, just great. How can he? It was just a different experience. So, um, and things are coming through. Crucially. I mean, because proofs in the pudding, isn't it? You can all be good vibes and have a good time. But actually, it's got to deliver and turn into commerce. And we're starting to see the fruits of that. So you've got some big US deals in the pipe. Yeah. And then we, I mean, it's a very hot competitive market. You know, the deals are expensive. But we're, you know, I sort of feel like talking about sharks, little baby sharks. We're sort of circling. And we'll get there. But also, you know, we're looking for an office in L.A. Hopefully we, we think we found a spot. We'll go and visit it in January when I'm over. And, and just I think it's really good to have a presence there. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And I mean, buying and managing catalogs, publishing records is what you do. That's been a really hot era of the music business for the last few years. Is it, is it still as hot and the stuff that's still really hot? There's loads of goods. I mean, there's, there's just, it's very competitive because there's lots of money. It's good and institutional money. There's lots of that. And they want to invest in music. So I think though some are doing it better than others. You really got to know what you're doing. I mean, we see some real crap. And we see things that really shouldn't be on the market. And we see people trying to sell things. You know, there are kind of sales people, which I this think this business is so established white. No one needs that. You know, you've got great lawyers. You've got great managers. You've got great business managers. And you can contact us direct. You know, sort of flogging dead horses isn't a good look. I mean, there's plenty to do. There's plenty of money. There are plenty of deals. But you've got to be very particular and picky. And very often with soul, so and so's got their catalog for sale. and you know they want because we like being really creative, we always start.
with what do you want here? Because someone will actually say, "Well, I'd like some money, but I don't want to sell everything." And I'd like to invest in myself, and I'd like to have control of my futures, so I don't have to sign my rights away again. Great, we can make a deal like that. We absolutely can, you know, we can value that, which will get you the check you want, so you can reinvest in yourself. We'll become your partner because we are your catalogue partner. Like, we're David Gray's catalogue label, we're guys catalogue publisher. And Rack, I mean, Rack is Rack music, we haven't talked about, but it was a huge. Right, great. when I've been after that for bloody ever, you know. And so when that came about, but we, you know, we got 64 writers with Rack, and of a certain generation, and these people need real handholding, and they like communication, and you've got, you know, it's proper client service. And, but also, you're taking a catalogue there that really sort of digitizing it, bringing it forward, and giving it to so much more exposure, it's been incredibly exciting. But again, that was collaborative, and also it was a family business. That couldn't be sold to anybody. That has relationships and God parents and, you know, the daughter, the family, had worked for the business, you know, needed to be hand to a really good custodian. Is that important for some people, though, that, you know, obviously you're a music person with a long track record? Does that give you an advantage over some of the sort of pure financial institutions? I mean, when the situation's demanding that, I would hope very much, so, I think then, you know, to be fair to some people, when you're selling, and it's the one big thing you're going to do, and it's one time you're going to go for the biggest check possible, it's a bit like selling your house. We've seen some very big checks, and it out. Very big. Queen Bruce Pringsling, Bob Dylan. Are those deals over, are they really big? No, no, they're, they're always more to come. Are you interested in those deals? Of course we would. I mean, if Metallica would sell me that catalog tomorrow, I would buy it, and we could buy it. But also you have to remember those deals, when the majors, you know, there's a market share game going on too, and then the pricing goes into a difference fear. And we're not in that. We have to make sensible returns on our investments. You know, we have investors, we have the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund. I actually worry about the teachers, I say to the guy, remember, this is the teachers money. You can't screw it up. So no, we won't overpay for something or do the fidgery due to make a deal happen because it's, I always use an analogy and it's really simple, which is a good house is a good house. But if you pay too much for that house with a mortgage, you can't afford that house will become a very bad house for you very quickly. And I look at the investments with catalogs the same way. Do you think people have overpayed for too many deals in the past? I think there might be, I think, you know, I think there are quite fire sales that go on. And I think there may be further, if you've overpay for something, how an interest rates change, how you're going to facilitate that. It's just like the housing market, it's a really interesting parallel. There's a lot of snobbery around people selling their catalogs and so on for I just look at it as entrepreneurs. I think you built something and success down to your sheer talent, down to you. And like any entrepreneur who builds a successful business, if you want to then sell that business, why not? Bravo, well done you, you know, you deserve this success. And even better when you can do that and then reinvest in yourself like Dave, who has David Gray, I'm talking about, has complete control of his career. He's futures, he's new albums, he owns it all, owns his publishing and he owns his futures and then he has a catalog deal with us for the catalog with Bella Fogura. And that's, he's just a really good businessman. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people do sell their catalogs nowadays. Is that a sign that the Royalty system isn't really working for a songwriter anymore? It all depends Mark, I think it's just, there's a time in your, I mean, I'll give you examples. So there's a time in life where for tax reasons and estate planning and you may have children and other, you know, where selling your catalog is the right thing to do because everybody would like the money and, you know, we talked to one writer and he just, you know, got him, he just said, I want to be debt free, pay off the mortgage and buy the kids flats, set them up. But also, I'm young enough to build another catalog. Absolutely makes sense. We've seen some deals have been presented as, with there's a huge on-recoot balance. And it's really messy. And, oh, and you're just going, you know, we had someone said, yeah, and they've got a tax bill and I thought they should not be selling their catalog, they should fire the business manager, the account manager and get a new team around them. The last thing they should do is sell their catalog because that, if somebody can't manage their money, shouldn't be selling the family silver. Yeah. Good point. I mean, you have signed some great catalogs. Thank you. What do you look for in an investment? What sort of picture interest? Well, first of all, I've got to like it. I mean, do you, because I'm guessing that's not the case for everybody. For some of the huge last week came along and we all held on those of it. You know, we're not going to buy a catalog by Neo Nazi. We're not going to do that. Doesn't matter how much it earns or how quietly it could be done. Fair enough. So, you know, got to start with that. That's the first place. And believe in it and understand it. And then and then it's it really is the financials as well. And it's also the right because I said something earlier, which was people say, so and so selling their catalog. And they raised, well, they're not selling that catalog. They they're selling a piece of their right to share because they don't actually control their catalog because that catalog was signed away for life or copyright to so and so they own that catalog. Well, they control the IP copyright. So again, it's the first question, you know, with the guys, we always unpack it and go, okay, what are we looking at? First thing. Yeah. And I can say there's a lot of competition in this sector, which is still, which is still very new really. I mean, I guess my curiardist was kind of key in making this a thing. Brilliant. What he did. You know what Mark did? Mark, he doesn't get credit for this. He made a lot of writers and artists from really rich. When their companies sort of hadn't, you ask me about, is it faulty with the royalty system? I that that's such a long that's a different discussion for us. I'll call Carson itself. It is a poor Carson itself and and have a few people from independent and the major sector and and then the artist DIY sector would be quite interesting to compare. So back to Merck, who I think really didn't get sort of the credit he deserved, but but making creators wealthy who were with formidable careers and it was quite shocking. So nice to understand how really not wealthy they were and we had this experience with a very famous band at BMG who purchased on a never ending unrecoup balance and doing kind of ship venues and things. And then with BMG did a whole load of re-records and those re-records were for middably successful with sync and then they were able to do a sort of quasi-catalog deal as well and it made by then they were both well older than me and for the first time in their lives became wealthy and this is a band you know. Nice. Are you looking forward to Merck coming back into this sector? I'm actually always exciting. I'll keep an eye on that. Okay. You're looking forward to competing with him on some deals. Well we're doing different things because he's now as I understand he's coming in and buying sort of income streams, producers and other things but yeah I mean I always wish all the best to Merck. I mean you are Bella Fagura, you are custodians of some of the greatest songs ever. Thank you. And you've got I Love Rock and Roll and Don't You Want Me and all these great stuff. I mean that's actually a big responsibility isn't it? Because it's easy to look at the numbers and think oh yeah you know there's lots of money there but there's there's kind of more to it than that sometimes isn't it? Well obviously the money is important because it facilitates it enables us to do this and build this business and work with these extraordinary songs. I mean of course you know, Rack Mickey Most and Chris his wife and the family get the credit for I Love Rock and Roll, Kids in America come up and see me. You sexy thing. Everyone's a winner you know and on and on what a catalog it's absolutely fantastic. But we there are sort of key elements to what we do. So we invest in, we acquire and that might look like lots of things it always starts with you know what what are you looking for here what do you want. And then we there's the laundry. Bella Fagura Laundromat and that is washing every catalog we buy. So everything we buy we do a massive housekeeping on the metadata on the copyright information because you know there's huge leakage in this business and it was something again it was an observation that I took from BMG and learnings which was a company that grew very very quickly added a lot of copyrights into a big system and legacy systems in some cases and for me it just felt that no one ever really had the time to get through it to clean it all up and that's fine because you know there's a top tier running most of the money and they focus on that. So ours was all about this is the Ferrari garage so we have Ferrari's we have Formula 1 level mechanics the best in the world looking after them and they have time so you have a team for each Ferrari and nothing reenters the ecosystem until we're satisfied that it's a hundred you know that the metadata the information the underlying copyright information is 100% complete that is a huge part of what we do we then have an inhouse data analytics team and so we just we we part of what we do is we get our data raw and we track it clean it observe it so that we're able to make well informed decisions backed up by data at all times the other part of it is the creative part so the creative curation so licensing syncs a huge part of that and we're building our team there we have two in London at the moment we use an agency for supporting us internationally and now we have this global publishing deal Abman deal with Sony, so we have access to their huge team. And we move on.
make sure we incentivize them appropriately so that they push our stuff. And we're building our team. So one of the things in America is having our own sync people in Los Angeles and New York, which will be important. So it's those two things. And then they come together in what we call the value creation committee. And so we meet regularly as a team. And it's all about value creation strategy to what have we bought? Is it performing to where it should be? We look at the historicals, but also what else can we do? And I think we bought something very beautiful recently. And there's a big anniversary for one of the bands next year. And so we're really getting to work on that at the moment. It's very exciting. And do you look at things like songwriters whenever I talk to a songwriter, they complain about the share of money they get from streaming? Yes. Do you think is that going to have to change at some point? It, as you know, it's changing slowly. And David Israelite is really the champion of this. And it's very, very important. I still believe the slice of the pie for the writers is not big enough. It should be greater without the song. There's nothing. And I think Kim Frank of it's made a really good point. I mean, she's a friend as well. And it's something we talk about is writers go to work. And they don't get a basic, they don't get their expenses covered all in basic living wage. You know, I go to work every day. I get paid if you're being set up in a session. You might have your advance from your publisher, but that won't last forever. You might do get a per DM now, don't you? Well, there is that. So that's a step in the right direction. But I think also just increasing that slice of the pie is really important. Because I think, you know, and I'm sure I'll be shot down all my friends who work in records. But when I began, you know, you understand the economics, which was especially in the physical days, you know, artists got tall support. They all the funding came from the label. I suppose the labels were taking all the financial risk. And so the argument was we've got to have the larger share of the pie for that return. But I think since the digital revolution and then now was streaming, that has changed. And now, you know, it's interesting, Mark. So we, we value catalogs. I always feel I sound like a meerkat. You know, we buy any car, we value catalogs. And we, I just say it like a mantra is really worth it. But we see a lot because we look at contracts. I'm old, some very old, some newer. We see royalty rates. We see a lot of data. And, you know, there are people charging, applying a container charge on digital. I don't think that's still. I don't think that's okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of-- You explain the breakage to me in that. And sticking by them as well. There are, I think, the work for hire, you know, the way some writers in their youth were. Some of the bigger bands we know today, you know, those original contracts were work for hire. But they weren't works for hire. They weren't writing for hire like maybe a film TV composer does. These were people going in and creating new compositions. And they're still stuck on these work for hire contracts. So that needs-- that needs examining. Yeah. Well, let's talk about your career. Yeah. Because you've been in the industry for a while. But I think originally, did you want to be a criminal lawyer? You weren't interested. You didn't want to work in a music business. I didn't know about the music business. I didn't even know it existed. Yes, I was going to save the instant man from the establishment. Because I was influenced by two extraordinary people. One was the head of my law-- I read Law at London University, Quimari College. And it was headed by Professor Graham Zellick, one of the leading civil libertarians. So we were all civil liberty champions, all his students, you know, earnest young people. And so that's what I wanted to do. And at the time, there was a very well-known-- I mean, she's still alive-- but Gareth Pierce. And she, you know, she led the appeals for the Birmingham Sixth School for four and many, many, many others and is still active today. And so I was just like, I'm going to be Gareth Pierce. I lasted one week in Citizens of the Vice Bureau work experience. It was one where-- one's where scrubs did me. And I'll wait there. All I remember, the only thing anyone ever cared about was taking a box of Benson and Hedges and you got the B and H. And I just didn't have the chops for it. I didn't feel intellectually. I have the chops for it to be a barastit. But-- and then I discovered the music business. I just didn't know it existed. When I did discover it, I thought, wow. Right enough. And you started your music industry career. Were you like a PA at-- I was less than the PA. I was the PA's assistant's assistant. That's the glory days of the business. I was basically an office junior girlfriend, I did do it all. But it was an IRS record. And I think the-- I went to see Stella Walker at Handel, who's-- I just say you need-- Emmae's "How many shout outs she gets on this car?" Well, I was-- You're a bit like the blue bells aren't we, but that's not very feminist. But Stella's "Girls." And it was sort of-- I think it was something like music entrepreneur needs help. There's sense, humor, essential, typing not necessary. Minimum, a basic typing. And it was IRS record. I went in there kind of doing everything. I mean, my salary was so bad, I had a waitressing gig in the evenings as well. But I guess that was a very successful indie label at the time. I mean, a freight RE Amager's left. So it was ready in the-- Less successful. But what it was was, you know, Miles and Extraordinary on Sprener. And you had this building. It was a big old house and so-ho. And everyone was in there. It was Pull Lowesby, Pull Bamfield. There was the publishing company, Carl Layton Poep. So you had agency. You had managers. You had publishing. You had records. There was the days they still did the sales. To each of the goes, it was sales week to HMV. And our price and did it. - So it was an incredible environment to be, and Jean-October lived in the basement, he was the handyman because, when Juh biliden worked out, Mars couldn't have a fire in he, he just kept everybody on, he was very loyal. And yeah, what a place to learn. - Yeah. - And just-- - And just, this thing called A and R, (laughs) what an amazing, do that then. - Well, and then you became a lawyer, and you worked in a house at various-- - Yeah. - And so you were, I think it was source records for Juhni and Mai. - Well, after seven years of sort of tinged, noodling around, and I actually found, well, I love his the deals and the business of it and how you should do. I think I had one of those minds, I'd get something, and I have to unpack everything, find all the evidence, bring it all back together, and make it, and I just found they really liked the deals. And yeah, it was also means to an end, 'cause it was how to progress, and being a lawyer and going into business first, I do it, someone advised me to do that. They said, "Do you have a law degree?" I would go and finish that, get qualified, look at Sheila and McCloud at Virgin, and she was another one of those extraordinary women, I thought, "Yeah, I'm gonna be, I want to be like her." And the way she, everything, the way she conducted us often. So I pursued that path, yeah, I started it, well, I saw CMI, which was amazing, 'cause it was just as cheering breaks were happening. So, you know, filipascally impeccable taste, and just incredible roster, but it was that, and they got the Mercury nomination, it was very exciting time to be there. - Nice one, and then you went to Theodore Gala, and then you went to the Lord. - Well, I was, yes, I was approached by Theodore Gala to join them, and then the day before I joined them, they were taken over by a firm called Adleshawz, and that was a slightly different beast, but the advice I got was, look, you've been in house, the thing is probably not getting the skills you need as a lawyer, and you need to go and work with great lawyers, i.e. in a law firm, and the view was that that team, you know, pedigraphed in Green, you and Lawson, James Harmon, formidable music lawyers, go and work with them, and you'll learn, you'll get refined, you'll learn to draft, you'll learn to negotiate, you'll learn the law, because if you're in house, all your career, there's a risk you only have one perspective, you don't see that, and also you have multiple clients, so you're acting, whereas if you're in house, your clients are the label. And so that was great, and I was there a couple of years before I had, you know, it went screaming from the building, 'cause I don't really want to be a solicitor. - Very enough, but, and you, were you the lawyer for the X Factor finalist for a couple of years? - It was amazing. - They probably needed a lawyer. - Well, they have to, but also I think it's, I mean, look, there's not, you know, it's the producer's show, and if you want to be on that show, it's their show, and you don't have to be on that show, and the reality is, you know, these are young people, and they've probably signed the back of a poster's stamp to be on the show, so only later, and they become successful. But what they were, they had to do, there were good checks and balances around these kids, so yeah, I was very lucky, I had two incredible years, the JLS year, JLS were extraordinary. 'Cause they came in ready formed, with the business and the colors, and like, JB's dad did the merch, and they had an assistant who sent everyone gifts. They were the most, we used to call them JLS Inc. They were the most organized, sort of professionalized, little group of guys, I'd ever met. And then I had one direction, so, but of course they weren't one direction when we met them. They were five of them. - Well, they were put together on the show, yeah. - During the show, yeah. What was it like being in the middle of that sort of whirlwind? - It was amazing. I mean, you knew they were, I remember walking into the room, 'cause you get auditioned, you then have to X-factor to the kids and their parents. So, you know, it's all these kids, and all the parents, dogs, and all sorts of all that, and you then have to go and sort of do a presentation and get judged, you know, new or poire. And it's really scary. And I remember, I think it was, the lawyer at Sony had said, they lined up three of us, two men in me, and he said to the, and the one direction, they were all sitting there in the front, little cheeky chapies, and with their uncles and dads and moms. And he said, yes, well, when you've chosen, you'll get to choose the lawyer. They'll come and present, and these are all experienced music lawyers, and then you get to, and when you've chosen him, you then, and I just said, oh, she, and I remember, now, horror and sad,
"You're the one, you're the one, you're for me!" (laughs) - There you go. - Well, I hope I actually said something vaguely since I was a boy. So yeah, ended up with them and then you, but we, I remember Richard, I was saying earlier about checks and balances and great people, but I got to work with modest management, Richard and Harry. - Legends of the game. - Brilliant as well. And I remember, 'cause he'd ring up and say, "Who do you think it's gonna win?" And we'd always take, you know, and I remember thinking, "Those boys." And they didn't win that to show that, yeah, but I was like, they're just each of them individually, but a bit Harry especially, we thought was bursting out of it. Just, it was a lucky young Mick Jagger. - Well, he'd done quite well for himself. - He's done all right, he's very talented. - And then you joined BMG, which at the time was, I guess, just reestablishing itself as a music company, wasn't it? - Well, it had, I'd met Hartwig before, well, around the time he was setting it up and he was telling me about it. And I thought it was very interesting, but I, I during that time was having my midlife crisis and went to live in Argentina for a year, was I thought about life. And, and, - Would you have a timer? - Yeah, that's another podcast. And then he, he, well, we kept sort of loosely in touch. And I actually took him, a client, it was a big client we had. And I said, you know, he deals up, time for a change. And I, you know, really interesting what you're doing at BMG, do you want to meet him and talk about it? And then he rang, said, I was thinking about that. Would you be interested in joining us? - No, well, and I went to Berlin and we met and had a coffee in a chat. And I saw, and then he said, he offered me a job. Now, we were doing really, really well, was there were big plans for one direction and so on. So forth. So it was very exciting. And I loved working for Richard and Harry as well, or with, should I say, was learning so much. And I, but you know what, you get a chance like that. And I said, well, what would I be doing at BMG? And you were so, I don't know, like, build the UK business, business development, bring catalogs in, something like that. KKR coming in, we're gonna buy stuff. And all right, that sounds interesting. I mean, it was that sort of loose. Anyway, long story, that was, I was there seven years. - And you became the boss of BMG UK? - Well, no one was ever really the boss at BMG because the bosses were in Berlin and still are. But yeah, yeah. I mean, we built that. We took, it was like five million euro, I think when we began. And also BMG wasn't the most popular choice. You know, people called us the big mean Germans and all these other things. And I don't know, there was sort of obviously some sort of bad taste from BMG, you know, 1.0. And so it was quite hard. And it was, I remember the first year or so, we were just stalking horse in every deal and every time. But we, you know, we persevered, persevered, built, obviously there was the Chrysler's acquisition and things like that happened. Incredibly, I mean, I just learnt so much. - And you were, I guess you shifted from legal and business first to? - It was kind of everything. - Running the whole thing, was that? - Everything, you know, so it's catalog, front line, publishing recordings. But what I did learn was I really started to learn the publishing business, which I had not known at all before. I mean, I knew I worked and I did publishing deals for clients, right? It was, but I hadn't been on the other side and that was fascinating. What's the power of catalog? What you can do with people who do really good job with catalog and when that union square, BMG bought some great catalog, Mutant Sanctuary, notably, on the master side. And then that union square team came in and you saw here's a team who really now had a market package and license and just great watching them turn things around. So I was really peaked by that. - Yeah, you were working with some very big artists, BMG, you sub-bought people into the field, Ronny Stones, Kylie Minogue, people like that. I mean, that must have been quite a good landmark for a new company to get some of those deals. - The Rolling Stones deal, well, I mean, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards specifically 'cause it was about them as writers and the songs. But that was for me a turning point very distinctly. When we did that deal and I did that, with Joyce Smith and Dave Trafford. And they realized they had to make some changes to the setup they had that worked well, but they were painfully aware it could work better. Particularly we're dealing with collections around YouTube and things like that. And so that was a defining point for me in my career, I think, very proud moment too. But we also did several other and found some new people too and some incredible other deals I'm very proud of. - That's true. I mean, it was a successful one, I think you tripled BMG UK's revenue. You finally got my-- - More than triple. - You finally got my president. And then you left? - Yeah, well, I was vice for so long. - Yeah, I was vice this, vice that. And then I was another vice. And it was like, how many vices do you have? Until you become my president. (laughing) I remember it was Kenny McPherson, vice to Lise. Are you still a vice? Yeah, yeah, still a vice. Different letters, still a vice. But yeah. But also I always, it wasn't me. There was an incredible team there. Gosh, that's a talented team at BMG, yeah. - Was leaving unexpected. - Yes, it wasn't quite in the plan. - What happened? - Can't tell you. - You can't talk about it. - Well, it was just time. It was time for us to go different directions. Yeah, I think it's nice you just don't agree about the same thing. But it was a good thing for me because maybe I would never, I'm quite sort of, I'll keep going at it and going at it. And it was very good for me. I think at that point in my life, it was absolutely a change that I needed. And I didn't know I needed at the time, that was all Mark. And now it's, I mean, I probably went to Belifagura and that really has professionally. The size of becoming a lawyer, going back older to law school in my late 20s and getting that done two years of law school, two years of training and then getting qualified, which was a huge investment, personally, financially in every way. That and setting up Belifagura, which was also a huge investment, personally, professionally and everything, because I became blinkered about it, because people get say, "Oh, you've got to get a job." And I said, "Well, first of all, no one was offering me a job." And two, there wasn't really a job out there I wanted. Whereas I used to be more certain about, I'd see, I'd like to go, "Oh, I'd like to go to Rock Nation." Or I'd like to go here, I'd like to go there. Or I always wanted to work for Charles Peterson that talking loud, I thought, "I was one of the coolest labels." And so, but I didn't have anything that I wanted and but I thought, "I want to be an entrepreneur." I wanted to be in charge, but also, I wanted to do things, I have an idea about things. I know I've got a good idea and I want to make that happen. So I became blinkered, but that also came with, you know, I rented out my house, I went back to live with my mother, you know, and then COVID hit. And, you know, back to Beans on Toast and having to be really, really careful and mindful and just not having a big salary and you have to change everything. And, you know, generous friends, you realize how generous some friends are. And, yeah, and I'm, it was worth every second and every penny. - Yeah, well, I got only-- - Every tier. - It's, like you say, there's a lot of pressure, I think, in the music industry isn't there to get back into a job as quickly as you can, but clearly, waiting paid off, you've got a figure. - It was, yeah, it absolutely, I don't regret a second, but it wasn't easy. - Yeah, now you're here, you're in it. Where'd you want a figure to end up? What's there? - Well, I know they would, I'd like it to go and go. I mean, I hope we're building, you know, we believe and we want to build another great music company. I think we are, we're all, you're doing that. I think we're on the way. We have a young, relatively young team as well and we always think about everyone, could they run the company one day? And so, you know, I think the team we're building, our people potentially will one day, you know, continue it. We have investors, investors want their money back, so we'll go through exits and liquidation events as they call it, 'cause investors are allowed their money back with plus sum, you know, and that's fair enough. And we'll navigate through that and we'll, we'll say, I always say, we'll make well informed decisions and we won't do anything in a knee-jerk way, but that could be all sorts of things. We could do a merger with someone we could sell, we could, oh, we just carry on or our investors are reading, talking about reinvesting. - Good. - And then we have Ontario, you know, they're a long-term, good patient people and there's lots of teachers. So, you know, and they've been a terrific partner. So, you know, we'll see, I think the wonderful thing is there are options and with all this, with the investment community, taking the music business so seriously, there are a lot of good options. It's healthy. - Is there a dream catalog out there that you'd like to, okay, yeah, and some? - Do you know, I had a horrible feeling you'd ask me and it's such a difficult question. Metallica, Shade, Shade would be my, I mean, I've got this one's like David Bowie, of course, you know, because I idolize him. But I think that's out of reach. But, you know, Shade, hey, Shade, we're here. - I'm sure she's, I'm sure she's listening to the manager. - Trim your horizon as well, obviously, 'cause, you know, I feel very emotionally attached to that. - Yeah, of course, with the BMG days, but all right, well, maybe someone will give you a call, we never know, but stick. - Just putting it out there, guys. Mark has my number. - Manifesting, the young people are done, but thanks, let's see, stick around. Latest or greatest is coming right up. If you're enjoying the Money Trench supported by SoundOn and Tixle, please give us a rating or review on your podcast platform of choice. And don't forget for even more music industry insights, sign up for the TMT newsletter at themoneytrench.com. But now it's time for our quick far round with our guest, Alexi Corey Smith of Bella Figura. Alexi, this is called Latest or greatest. You can decide to talk about either the most recent, or the all-time best music business thing,
that you've experienced in these categories. We start with the latest or greatest record that you've bought. Well, the latest I actually bought with my money at Rough Trader's is David Gray's new latest album, because I wanted the, it's a beautiful piece of vinyl. Did he not send you a free copy? No, and it's not even ours, because we don't, it's not catalog, but so, but I, the one that always sticks when you, because you go with your gut, which your first answer, it was Solve to Solve's Back to Life 1989, I think it was. And, oh my God, that was the sound of that summer, wasn't it? Yeah. And I just remember, Hazy, and I remember we went into, I think it was like an R price in, in Finsbury Park. I'd never go to Finsbury Park. I'm not, I don't know North London. And, but I was up there for some reason, and my friend had this little electric blue Fordescoot convertible, and we got it, and we got it on record, and then we made a cassette of it, and we just played it out of our car relentlessly. I remember that so well, and it was Hazy, it was so hot, it was on those hot, so, Hazy summers. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah, that's another catalog, but I think he already did a deal, and then it was Solve to Sol, and then he grew up in, J.S.E.B. Oh, well, you never know. Never knew. So, the latest or greatest gig or festival that you've been to, I know you've been to a few good ones. God, this was hard mark. This was the hardest question, because, I'm going to, I'm going to give you three, because I can't pick one out, singularly. But it's, brimmy though, Ryzen will always be at Brixton Academy, and I think it was 2016. I was at that show. Just as they were, I mean, literally, the venue almost literally exploded, and the band were exploding, and it was just, you remember that night, I mean, it was just sensational. But also, I think the prodigy in Manchester, and I would just remember the whole place, the terrace, everything bouncing, and it was seen the generational, who's dad and their sons now at that show. But I've always, I mean, I've prodigy, as someone said, there's one band you can have, then it would be the prodigy. But the one that always sticks my mind, seeing Frank Ocean at the R.A. and L.A. Just as he'd come out, we're not future, they were all starting to do their own things, and Michelle, Jibalera, who was his lawyer at the time, took me to the show, and I just blew me away. And then I saw him again at Brixton London, and he blew me away again, and I, yeah. Just loved that night. - Great stuff. - And discovering him. - Yeah, I thought you were going to say the Ryan Stones in Cuba. - Oh, that was pretty special too. Yeah, that was the bad. 'Cause you know the whole thing, 'cause President Obama and the Pope then decided to visit the same week of the show. So there was a kind of power battle of who-- - Just to get on the Stones, guess, list, or-- - I guess, I mean, well, there wasn't, I mean, there were no tickets, you know, it wasn't, it was an amazing investment on the Stones part, I think. But it was, so it was this sort of power struggle who came out, and I think it went Obama the Pope Jagger sort of in, so they had to move the show a week. But you know, moving things a week in Cuba is not, it's not like anywhere else. But it was, yeah, it was worth every second. - I guess they're probably the only two people that make Jagger would be happy to be third on the build. - I guess maybe, yeah. And we saw the beast, Obama's beast was coming down the street. - Oh, the car. - Cubans have never seen anything like it, yeah. - Amazing, amazing. - Your latest or greatest music, Beers boss. You are the boss these days, but you've worked with a few. - I've been this-- - That's a great question, 'cause there's people you work for, work with. - I tell you who was brilliant when I started, I R S, Steve Danett, 'cause he just let me loose. Just let, he's like, yeah, all right, off you go Lex, he's called the Lex. And, uh, didn't matter if I was getting the tea or buying takeaways and Chinese takeaways, so her full-hid, whatever I was doing, but he let me have a really free reign. Which is like, go online, go on. Oh, you wanna make video, go make a video. You wanna do that, put a budget together, get a remix. Go off you go, go on tour for a bit. Yeah, yeah, be good for you, learn, da, da, da. And it was just, he allowed that. - For the TMT guest, of course. - Yes, yes, I, yeah. And such a character as well. But, I tell you who I learnt so much from was Richard Griffiths. - Go, I'm more just. - Just incredible. And he, 'cause you know, he can be, you know, he has a bite. And, but he just say these things, and I just was like a spawned around him. He taught me one great, always in my head. And I always say it's the team, possessions 90% of the law. If you're not in the room, you're not in the game. And you haven't got a chance, but at least if you're in there, you have a chance, you know? And you've got, you're in the play. Yeah, and so many other things. Yeah. - Sound of ice? - Brilliant. - The latest or greatest mistake. - Oh God, Mark, this is awful. I mean, fuck up every day, you know? But I'll tell you exactly what it was. It was BMG not signing Ed Sheeran. - Go well. So, we've had a few people on this book, 'cause they're the great not signing Ed Sheeran, but what happened? - Well, it was just, I think the, well, there was BMG not signing Ed Sheeran and BMG not signing odd future. Odd future came first. And it was just as the, we hadn't acquired Chrisless yet, but it was going to happen. And it was just, you know, in a company and no one had heard of these guys, you know, and it was all risky and it was a non-negotiable number. But, you know, Ben Bodie had the vision. I wanted to do it and it just got stuck. I think with Ed Sheeran, what was frustrating then, it was BMG just acquired Chrisless and you were bringing these teams together and there was quite a lot of friction. And Brilliant created only Cullington at BMG, Brilliant created at Chrisless, Hugo Turkey. Both wanted to, and I think it had very good meetings. So everybody agreed, one do this. And we met him and he came in and he was just lovely. And then it got very competitive and it, we sent a memo and it's embarrassing 'cause my business partner, Nilo, she was in the investments team at BMG, dug out that memo the other day. He did, when I'm annoying him, he digs it out and goes, "Look at this." And it just sends me into despair. And it was the memo we sent up to Berlin saying, "We have to do this, we have to do this." And it was blocked as to, to a risky. - Ooh. - Ooh. - Would have been a risk worth taking, probably. - Sure. - But so, I mean, you know. You know. - I guess you can say that about a lot. - But everything. (laughing) The latest or greatest artists that you have worked with, you've been good, but you've worked with some good ones. - Oh yeah. Well, latest and greatest is interesting 'cause this hits too perfectly. I mean, latest and greatest David Gray, all day long. Loved him. I loved him when I first discovered him, loved him today as an artist. And he's so complete, he's so brilliant to work with. For a company like ours, who invest in catalogs and then have the strategy and become the label partner and go forward, he's the gift that he's giving. He just never stops, he gives you everything you need. The pressure is on us to deliver to that until he's standards. But Liam Howlett of the prodigy, who I got him, he moved his catalog over to us from BMG and signed. And just extraordinary individual, so talented, and a gentleman. When I left BMG and it was Christmas, and I was about 1050 and I wasn't gonna have a job in January. She was a little scary. He wrote to me and just said, thank you. Sorry about this. All right, and thank you. I always make an effort to go to the shows and love the band. I mean, I'll be like, on my last leg, if I have a leg, whatever it is, and I'll be at a prodigy show. - Well, they never disqualified to those. - Never. Brilliant. And the latest or greatest music industry party. - And it goes to parties, Mark. I'm grumpy. - I've seen you at a few parties. - Not for a while. - Yeah. Over the years, that's the problem. I've got old and grumpy and things hurt. I tell you why I went to the other day. It wasn't the industry, but it was fantastic. Sandy D'Warni had a little gathering at the weekend. And actually, it was a real gathering of music industry folk. And it was really fun. I haven't been to kind of what I call institutional party for a while, but there's a few teed up. - Okay. - And I'll be in LA the Grammy week. And there's going to be a few parties. That's always quite fun. - Yeah, there's definitely a few good parties. - I think there's probably the last party I went to was that week, although it was fundraising. And there weren't that many parties because of the fires, but there were a couple that, I mean, it was the music cares, celebrating the grateful dead, which was a great night. And they raised a lot of money, which was really good. - Yeah, excellent stuff. Excellent stuff. And we can't let you go without giving us a new music tip. I know you're dealing mainly with catalogs, but do you still check out new artists? - I do. I mean, we have youngsters in the office. And we've got DJs in there. They're all very across music. So I kind of listen to them. Now, I'm very, I'm going to shame to say, I'm very late to this party, but what's been played in our office quite a lot. And I got them to thanks to Michaela. And our team is Blood Orange. I know, I think he started in like 2018. So I'm very, like I said, you know, I'm not good at parties and I'm a bit late. But wow, yeah, I've been really tapped into Blood Orange at the moment. - Okay. Fantastic stuff. But that, sadly, is all we have time for. So big thank you to our guest, Alexi Kory Smith, and Butterfagura, thanks for coming on the show. - My pleasure, Mark. And I must say, you've always been very supportive and you're very supportive about the figure. You're one of the few people who did believe in me and what we were doing. And I do appreciate that. And you're inviting me to show it's very kind of you. - Well, you're very welcome. Thanks for coming in. The Money Trunch, the Music Industry Podcast with me, Mark Sutherland, is supported by Sandon and Tixel and Insupport of Earth Percent. It's produced by Take Notes and exept produced by Mike Walsh with huge thanks to Senhizer, the fourth pillar. No amazing social media team, AinglessPlay. You can be found at ainglessplay.com. The Money Trunch Music is by the brilliant Tom A. Smith and to get in touch with us, please email
[email protected].
Christmas party season is about to get underway in the music industry and don't forget the TMT Christmas bash on December 8th. Check the TMT newsletter or socials for details and to back one of the very last few invites. This week the legendary PPL drinks mark the official start of the festive season on Friday plus radio head are still in town and there are big shows for a messy rose, English teacher, my bloody bell and time, Hailstorm, JLS and the Hives and don't forget your new favourite podcast will return with another brand new episode and another music business legend on Monday to December 1st. I do tune in then, Alexey thanks for coming on and I would say see you on the party so it could be you're apparently you're not. Well it's my birthday of your party and I'll be in Istanbul. Okay that's a good one. So I'm a lad, otherwise I would have I would have absolutely had a beer. Well there you haven't invited me yet but I'm just telling you in case. This is your invitation. This podcast is your invitation. I'm not minded about being unified. It's okay. Enjoy your kiss. Thank you.
PodcastTranscript AI