[Music] Hello and welcome to the Money Trench, the Music Industry podcast with me, Mark Sutherland. Thanks for all your lovely messages about us making it to our 100th episode. It was a fun week of celebrations, but today the next century begins. The Money Trench is supported by Sound On. Sound On is ticktocks all in one. Music distribution and promotion platform for artists and labels. Go to SoundOn.co to find out more and check out the Sound On Track of the Week in the TMT newsletter. And the Money Trench is also supported by Tixle, the honest ticket exchange on weightless, helping artists own their audience and protect fans from towns. Go to tixle.com to find out more and check out the Tixle gig of the week in the TMT newsletter. And we support Earth Percent, the Music Industry's Climate Foundation, check earthpercent.org for all the details. And this week we're in TYX Studios where we're joined by one of the true pioneers of the UK and global music industry. He's been an agent and artist manager and he was the co-founder of the legendary independent, christless label and music publisher, breaking artists in every year. Jeff Rottal and 10 years after to Blondie and Billy Idol to Fida and Maloko. Now back in the music business with a new label and publisher, Wright Tracks, please welcome the one and only. Chris Wright. Great to be here. And I'd like to welcome to the show, How's your Music Week been? Interesting. Well, we're gearing up to have a bigger week, to have a big week. We're leaving here to go and sign an interesting new artist which is going to hopefully be the highlight of the week. Excellent. Can you tell us who that is? Yeah, I can actually. Yeah, Ruby Duff who we think is a really exciting young girl, Wright singer performer and that's going to be the next mission after this mission that we're on right now. Well, I've heard some of stuff that's a great signing. Have you heard any of Ruby stuff? I have. Yeah, so excellent, excellent signing, things are up and running. And I mean, I'll ask you how your music week was. So you have a music week again now, don't you? After I do. I do. I do. It's very hot weather outside and productivity slips a little bit when the weather's this hot. So I think we're gearing up to get all the nuts and bolts in order for today's signing and that's been the focus of the week so far. For enough, you've already told me you've already played tennis this morning, Chris. So you're already, uh, the head of most of the music in this week. Yeah. Great stuff. Let's see what the rest of the music business has been up to with our round up of the latest industry headlines. And our first story comes from music business worldwide which reports on the latest BPI figures for UK music exports. The stats show recorded music exports hit a record high of 800.3 million pounds in 2025. But that was up just 0.8% year on year despite an improved hit rate for UK breakthroughs. The BPI blamed the slowdown on the increased international competition from territories such as South Korea and Latin America. Chris, you reform a BPI chairman of course. What do you make of these figures? Well, I think they're interesting figures. They're not terrible. You know, the world economy is not in great shape right now. There is, you know, the Trump war in the Middle East which is an oil price is being affected by that. And inflation in America, I'm sure inflation is higher than it should be. And, you know, a lot of global aspects like that affect the figures. Overall, we're still producing a lot of music that sells throughout the world. And I think that's a good thing. It's also, you do constantly need new artists coming along to like stoke the fire a little bit. A lot of those numbers are regularly like catalog and artists that have been established for a while. But if you have somebody really new and really exciting, it's going to give it a little nudge too. I mean, if I was looking at those figures as an economist or a finance director or something like that, I wouldn't be overly concerned about the fact that there is a little bit of a dipping growth. There's still pretty impressive figures. Then it's a great thing that British music is so important. Well, why? I mean, I travel a lot. I've always traveled a lot. And it's just always a wonderful thing. You can jump off a plane in, you know, wherever like Marrakesh, Morocco or anywhere at all. And you get in a taxi and turn on the radio and you hear one of your records and you think, wow, isn't that great? And it is great. Yeah, I mean, as I say, the BPI are sort of saying there's increased international competition. I guess when Chris List was starting, the music industry was about UK and US artists and not much else. Has that changed the game now that sort of hits can come from anywhere? Well, it's been a growing trend, hasn't it, for quite some time. I mean, we did, we did, you know, in the end of the last century, we had German artists, we had Dutch artists that were doing well internationally. And then we had a big Swedish boom, obviously, with Aber and their contribution. And, you know, other Swedish artists as well. I think that, and you've always had Latin American artists, I think the big difference is the Korean and Japanese Southeast Asia. You've never really saw that as being an artist developing area, but it is now. And in a very big way, but, you know, maybe 30, 40, 50 years ago, that was a market that we sent our artists to, but we didn't expect to be listening to any of their artists on the worldwide stage. But the rest of it, yeah, it's always been there, you know, even back in the days of the jazz boom in the 60s, there were Danish and Dutch jazz groups that were performing well internationally. There's always been an international element to the music business. Excellent stuff. And do we still have the talent to compete internationally, do you think? Well, I'm sure we have the talent. In order for the talent to break through, it needs to have a fertile reading ground. It needs the opportunities for artists to get off the ground, to find people to support them and let them develop their careers, both domestically, initially and then internationally. And we do have that. And if we move on to another story about live venues and live venues, I don't want to jump ahead, but, you know, you do need a fertile domestic environment for British artists to prosper and thrive and for people to want to develop their careers. And we do have that, but we can't take it for granted because it's very important that we nurture it. Absolutely. Well, we'll see how that develops. But as you hinted, Chris, our next story comes from Music Week, which looks at the industry reaction to new Prime Minister Andy Burnham's 20% business rate cut for venues. The move has been backed by the music venue trust as well as other trade bodies, although some have asked for the cut to be extended to recording studios. Chris, you basically started out booking shows on the grassroots circuit, and you saw, and you're certainly the college circuit up at Manchester University, is it still as important nowadays, as it was back then? Well, I think it has to be important. It's a hugely vital part of the whole industry and it has been suffering badly. I mean, I welcome what Andy Burnham's done here. I think it's a step in the right direction. You might say it's a bit of a gimmick because it's not a lot of money. I don't think it's going to change the landscape enormously, but it does show that he and the new government have this in their sites, which is definitely a good thing. He was at the Silver Clef awards at the Albert Hall a couple of weeks ago. I didn't get a chat to him myself then, but it's good that he was there and it's good that they're focusing attention on this area. I don't think the actual monetary sum is going to make a huge amount of difference. It probably needs to be quite a lot more for it to do that. Definitely. The life of grassroots venues is fairly precarious at the moment. Are there other things you'd like to see happen to help them out? I think it needs a much more serious conversation than just saying we're not a little bit of money off the rates. I'm not quite sure what the actual solution is, but certainly putting some initiative into getting young people jobs so that they can afford to go to the clubs and the live music venues is going to be an important part because like everything, there's an element of cost driven here as well. If you can't afford to go, you're not going to be able to go. Obviously, the venues need to exist. They need to exist on limited income coming in if they're struggling and the government's initiative this week, great idea, but can we please have a bit more? But if we can put a bit more money into the hands of the young people, then the venues are going to be doing better anyway because they'll have more people being able to turn up. True. Do you think you used to own a recording studio? I find this one, should they be included in this case? It's an interesting thought. We did have a lot of recording studios, including our studios, London, which was one of the most former studios in the world. Also, our studios, Moncerat, as well, if you remember, going back then and all the different people that recorded there. I don't know because the studio business is in a different. a different space now. I think we should look at it. I wouldn't say we should be hammering a weight that we should get a reduction in rates for studios, but I think we should look at it. We might come up with an area well for certain kinds of studios. Yes, we should do that. A large commercial studio which is still doing very well, if that exists still to these days, maybe that's a different thing, but smaller studios that are working with younger artists, working with newer artists, helping get them off the ground. Yes, I think that I'd say, let's look at it and let's see what we can do rather than having a blanket overall rate reduction across the board. Okay, well, we'll see what Andy Burnham does next, but our final story comes from music ally which digs into the latest YouTube revenues. YouTube ads generated over $11 billion last year, up 12.9%, but now for that boss, Philip Schindler says its subscription business, including YouTube music is now growing faster than its ads business. Chris, you grew up in the physical music business. Of course, how do you feel about streaming? Well, look, I mean, it is what it is, isn't it? I mean, it's the world we live in. If you'd asked me 30, 40 years ago if it was going to work out this way, especially coming from a base of where people expected to pay nothing, which is, remember those days when it was all free, the alternative to listening free was the buying an album or a CD and it's hard to compete with free. Well, we get that we as an industry get an infinitesimally small amount, but it does all add up, and there are different delivery systems whether it's just audio and audio and visual. And interestingly around the world, people do access differently. In some places, it's more audio, in some places more audio visual, and it depends a lot on where Apple is big and where Apple isn't big, like I think in South America where Apple is not so big because it's a more expensive product than they're listening in other ways there. It's, to be honest, I wouldn't say I was an expert on all of the numbers worldwide, but as long as people are listening to music, and if they want to do that by paying for it, then great, let's encourage that. Thanks very much and don't forget for even more music industry insights, sign up for the TMT newsletter at the moneytrunch.com. But now it's time to talk to this week's guest Chris Wright of Wright Tracks. Chris, you've been basically out of the music industry for 10 years. What made you want to come back? Oh my god, why did I have to do? Did you miss us? Yes, I did. I mean, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I move from the music being just music industry to TV production and radio stations and other things like that. And we had a, you know, very large company at one point in time. And music wasn't in the entire part of it. And I enjoyed being in the other areas I was in. And then I enjoyed for a while not really being in anything. And then I started thinking, well, you know, what really defines my life? I mean, my life, is it defined by heart radio? Not really. I mean, nobody listens to heart radio and thinks, Chris Wright, good job, mate. Is it defined by TV shows? Yes. We did create mid-summer murders. And it's still going, but people don't watch mid-summer murders. And think, oh, bloody hell, Chris Wright, good job, you know, mate did, but, you know, but then when they listen to, you know, whether it's Chesterotal or ultra-avaux or Spandale Valley or Blondie or Billy Idol or something like that, you know, I think they do think, yeah, Chris Wright, you know, and his ex partner at this time as well. Yeah, good job. And if it wasn't for him, we might not have had those artists. And I'm really associated with that. And I'm thinking, well, really what defines my life and my career more than anything else. And including, like football and rugby and other things I'm been involved in, is music. So look, at the end of the day, people think of me. What do they think of? They think of music and they think of artists that I've been involved in. So yes, if I'm going to have a last chapter to the book, let's make the last chapter what it really should be and let's make it music. And then how did I get into this? A friend of mine who isn't, he wasn't really in the music business to any great extent, played me some tracks by an artist and I thought they were really good. And I thought the guy really wrote great songs and was really prolific. And he had a band, I listened to the band and I met the artist and I thought, this is good. And I'd like to be involved in trying to help his career or help their career. So initially, I wasn't planning on being a record company. Initially, I said, you know what I said, they're great songs and you don't have a publishing deal. I do have a little publishing company, which is very, very, not really that operational, but at least it had all of the component parts. So I said, I'll sign you to a publishing deal and I'll work on developing your career and we'll get you a record deal. And then, hey, we're in great shape because rather naively, I was working on the old business model. That's how it worked. But of course, the further we went, it became clear that getting a record deal was not going to be very easy. So they keep saying, well, why do you beat the record company? I said, no way. I'm hyping a record company again. I mean, I've done that. You know, I'm not, I'm definitely not doing that. And I'm now a record company. I think the artist, who was the artist? This is a black lounge. The artist is called George Grant. He's a, and he really is very, very good. And we're now into his second single. We now have an album, we've now got a complete album finished. Danton Supple produced it in in Rax Studios, just down the road from here. There's some great tracks on there. The track that really hit me the first time when I was listening to demos, like which is now nearly a couple of years ago, is still not released as a single, but we're holding it back until we've got a bigger base to put it out. And then, you know, I thought, well, okay, so I won't be a record company, but we'll make, we'll make the record and we'll find a way of releasing the record. And then we'll get a little bit of a buzz going. And then that way we might get a deal with the major. But then it still isn't easy to get a deal with the major. That'll find out, actually, the major isn't really on doing anything. And I'm thinking, so if we actually do all of this and we get it off the ground and we have some success, am I going to then hand it over to a major, maybe not, you know, why should I? Because I think we can do it all ourselves anyway. But let's see how we get on. First, we've got to get the success. But that's how it all started. Yeah. So you're starting up this new company? Yes. How does it feel starting up this company compared to when you started up, Chrisless? Well, of course, I'm older, which is a factor, because when I was younger, of course, I could work 24 hours a day and I could be in pubs and clubs all night if I needed to be. And that, you know, doesn't quite go with the lifestyle these days quite so much. So, but I do have a great little team of people around me. I feel really, really confident in the team of people that I have around me that I can do, I can do what we need to do. And in over the years, over the years of Chrisless, you know, you have, you know, you go through times when you think you've got good people and when you're not so sure you've got good people. And it's not all down to me. It's down to the team of people. And I do think we have all we have the right team of people to be able to achieve what we want to achieve. And I feel very confident about that. And what do you want to achieve? Do you want to be as big as Chrisless was the first time around? I think that would be impossible. I think, you know, we've got with the artists that we're signing later today, we'll have four artists. I always said five's enough. I mean, obviously, when we were Chrisless, we had loads and loads of artists. If we had five successful artists, we'd obviously be building the infrastructure at the company and we could see where we go. But right now, let's not think about five successful artists. Let's hope we have one successful artist. And then we can take it from there because it's not easy. Then it's, you know, I was naive to think, just think a couple of the years ago that I could, I could sort of put my toe in the water and make it work. Well, my toe's not in the water. My whole body is in the water now. But I've still got to make it work. It's think or swim. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a completely different business to it was 10 years ago. Never my never mind when you first started. Are there lots of new things you sort of had to get your head around? Everything. Absolutely. Everything. Absolutely. Everything. But I mean, some of it still remains the same. I mean the basics are the same. You need a
good artists that writes great songs and can put those songs into great record with some help from whoever and you need to get that music to a wider market. I mean those are the fundamentals but getting that music to the wider market is really different. I remember when I signed Black Lounge that I thought I needed an A&R, a young A&R person. So I found a younger A&R person and I've had over the years I've had some very good A&R people working for me as you know that have gone on to become very major people in the industry. Whether a few of them on this podcast. Yes and I mean it's been it's been something that at Chris this we did do that we we a lot of important people pass through our ranks. So you know I got a young A&R guy Joseph Spittery, a strange name it's a multi's name and if you think in Spittery I know that name is because of Charlene. Charlene Spittery. So it's a multi is a multi's name so she obviously has multi's heritage as well. Anyway so at least everybody said of the name through Charlene which I think is a bit of a help to Joseph but I said well you know when you can see groups in clubs I said you'll know that there's something happening when when you turn up and you're the A&R guy there and then the next gig you go to there's a couple of others and then you know the third or fourth gig you go to there's like you know there's like a dozen it. So are you seeing that no I never see any other A&R people at the gigs I go to then I go to gigs anymore crystal on tick to exactly it took me a while to figure that one out but we at right tracks we do go to gigs. Excellent I know you're mainly working all your artists and new artists is that what you want to concentrate on you don't want to sort of sign up established talent. Yeah I'm not saying that one would turn down the opportunity if it arose but at Christmas we never signed established artists we're at my whole life's been about signing new artists that no one's heard of. I know I really know of no other way of doing it and I doubt that somebody established would walk through the door anyway but if they did sure we deal with it and we would offer them you know our advice and our help if we could be a bit of a deal with it. If we could be of any assistance to them but I'm not expecting that to happen I'm expecting that any artist we sign will be a new artist that we have discovered off the ground floor. I mean you've signed some of the greatest artists of all time is it does that mean you're very difficult to impress for a new artist. I always say to everybody you know when we're looking at a group or an artist I was said in the past always I said can you see them on stage at Madison Square Gardens. And I wouldn't I don't say that now because you know we're in England and Madison Square Gardens isn't everything but I do say could you see them on the main stage at Glastonbury. Look at them when they're a baby artist and you think could you see them on the main stage at Glastonbury or somewhere like that. And you've really you know really yes you want to you want to see somebody that you think does have that potential to get that far. Yeah I mean it's very difficult to break artists these days you've broken a lot previously in your career. Are you confident you can break artists the way you used to it. No I'm not confident. I'm sorry but I'm not confident. I wish I was but I mean we're just going to give it our best shot and and what more can we do but you even even even back in the Christmas days you were never completely confident but yes you felt you were on the right track and you got early pointers and signs that you were moving in the right direction. But even then in in those days some of the artists that you signed that you really thought were going to be big weren't. Some of the artists that were big were ones that you know were on the back row of the roster and suddenly made their presence felt so you never really know but it's it is difficult and I wish I could be completely confident that I can I have to tell myself we can. Otherwise there'd be no point in doing it but is it going to be easy no it's not I know that. Have you learnt over the years to sort of recognise the signs what an artist needs to in order to make it as it were are there things that set those artists apart. Well I think so yes I mean they yes I mean they need a certain attitude they've got to have the talent they have to have the belief in their talent and you know most people most people don't get up on stage in front of you know half a dozen people and perform unless they've got belief in their talent. Never mind in front of 20,000 people or more so you know it's not something that necessarily you or I would would would do you know thinking that yeah I'm going to knock them dead here but so they've got to have that they've got to have the right attitude they've also got to have a bit a bit of common sense between their ears as well and you know I do I do I've always felt a little bit like a bank manager when you when you're sort of auditioning or seeing. Seeing an artist for the first time that you know you're not just seeing the talent you're seeing whether the whether that human being has got what it takes to deal with the with the stress of everything because it's not easy and you know I remember there are artists that I didn't I didn't I didn't sign because you know I heard there were difficulties and problems I remember. I remember when I suppose to go and see it as in LA I suppose to go and see a group and I think in Tucson or Phoenix you know I didn't I didn't go because I heard there were you know it wasn't all. Playing straightforward and they turned out to be a really really big group but you know it happens like that you know you don't think did I make a mistake show in a way yes but no I didn't because I didn't go and see them for a reason and that was the that was that yeah. I mean it's still a very competitive business isn't it you've got major labels indie labels people can do things themselves nowadays I got well what can right tracks offer that all those other options. Well I mean I you know I will say you know you say it's a it's a very competitive very difficult bit every business is difficult and competitive. I mean and the only way that you're successful in my mind in any business is is wherever it is if you're you know if you're making nuts and bolts the anyway you're going to be successful is if you're making better nuts and bolts. Then if you're than anyone else otherwise wise anyone going to buy your nuts and bolts and and in music you if you're going to be successful you've you've got to be you've got to be. Better than anybody else otherwise it's not going to work so you know we're do we have to we have to show that we've got the ability to do that yeah well let's let's talk about you because you've had a long and illustrious career in the music industry but you started as a social secretary at Manchester Union I think you were one of the people that probably made that. The key sort of pathway into the music industry there are quite a lot of others that started off as social secretaries from that era yeah obviously my ex partner was at Newcastle University and you know Doug Darcy who was part of Chris list followed me at Manchester University I know other people that were Chris list will fright I think was a hell University he was part of us managed Roman Trowell and. For us and I know a lot of people I mean I am a bank's was it ready I think and Rob stringer there's been yes I mean it was a it wasn't a pathway because there wasn't even there was no sign of a pathway in those days but. I was at Manchester University it was a very exciting time to be there because it was the time that the Beatles were breaking and they were just up the road in Liverpool and then there was a spin over into Manchester with the Manchester groups at the time like you know they were quite big like the Holies and Freddie and the dreamers and Wayne Fontana and the mind benders that were part of yeah like adjacent to what was happening in Liverpool. I remember being at the uni one day and there were people talking about they went to the three coins and which was like a little club that held about 200 people and there were like 650 people inside and hundreds more outside to see a group from Liverpool the Beatles and so this was all sort of exciting and did you get in I know I don't know and I got I got elected onto the student council for no good reason and then there was a lot of people. I got a reason and then when you're on the student council everybody's got to do a job and and I became originally the assistant social secretary but the social secretary failed his exams and couldn't come back next year so I suddenly got promoted to the being the social secretary and that that was it and and then well yes I mean I from from a standing start I'm suddenly becoming one of the biggest promoters in the country without realizing it. And of course it was fun it was it was fantastic I mean what a life that I had my own office and and in the in the university union I'm promoting all of these these artists. Well you became an agent manager and then and then you met Terry Ellison formed Chris list did you.
And he was kind of a, was he kind of like a rival? He was sort of doing that what you were doing at the time? - Well, he was, yes. I mean, Terry was a year older than me, and he was a year ahead of me. And he, he, because of his new castle connection, new Mike Jeffries from the animals, and Mike Jeffries did a kind of similar thing with him that him started a little business, like trying to get artists to colleges. And I think actually it didn't work out as it should have done, and Terry then got a proper job, but he was doing it in his spare time. And he had his colleges, and the big group that we all wanted to book at the time was cream, you know, with Eric Clapton, Jack Bruce, and Ginger Baker. And I was booking them into colleges, and I knew the agency wanted 300, they wanted 300 pounds a night for them. And you had to put on top whatever you were putting on top. So 10% makes it 330. So I was offering cream to universities 330, and if the guy was smart, the social secretary was smart, you know, probably knocked me down to 320. And I was talking to Birmingham University, and he said, I can get them for less than that. I said, no, you can't. And I said, okay, 310 pounds, and don't tell anybody for cream, okay. And then he comes back to me, he said, no, I can get them for 300. I said, oh, well, I know 100% sure you can't. And he said, I can. Who from Terry Ellis? So I knew that Terry was selling them in for nothing. And I thought, this is ridiculous. He's gonna be, you know, like competing with me, and selling groups for no profits, ridiculous. So I called him up and said, I think we ought to meet. - Yeah. And then, did you realize that that relationship was gonna be so successful, 'cause of you turned Christmas into this empire? - No, you never know that, do you? You just don't know that. I mean, I'm like 21, 22 years old. I'm a kid straight out of college. I've got, I'm living on oxygen and not much else. And you don't, you know, you never, you don't think that to you, you know. Of course you don't. But actually, we did start the Ellis Wright agency in his bed sit in Sheppard's Bush. - Reading your book, those early years were quite chaotic. A bit hand to mouth, I think you sort of nearly went bust several times. - Oh yeah. - What did you learn from that? 'Cause it wasn't like easy. It wasn't an easy thing to do, was it? So it was like, easy come back. - I don't know what you do learn from it. I think you learn that nothing comes easy. And there's no givens. But, you know, going back, as I say, I was 21, 21, 22 years old, you know, you know no fear. When you're that age. And you and Terry obviously had a very successful partnership. But reading your book, you were quite often at odds. - Did that help, do you think? - That there was a little bit of. - You know, a little bit of competition between us, you know, would help. Definitely, you know, there was, I mean, I like when I started with 10 years after who were doing really, really well. And then, I mean, it was me that brought Jethro Tulley and through, 'cause I knew them from, they were the John Evans band from Blackpool. And I put them on Manchester University for like a tenor a night. And in fact, they wanted to, they were a seven piece group. They wanted to move to London. And I told them the guitarist wasn't good enough. And in those days, it was all down to the guitarist. And I knew a guitarist, Mick Abrahams, that had been in a group called The Toggery. And they were in Luton. And I put them together. And they, Ian Anderson and the rest of them moved down to Luton to work with Mick Abrahams. And they're ready to go on, we book them gigs. There's a seven piece group. And the first gig, they perform that. I call the social secretary, thanks for my hardware. They're great. Great sound for only four of them. Well, you mean, it's supposed to be seven. And I called up Ian. I said, "What else going on?" And he said, "Well, they all got homesick and went back to Blackpool and they just left me and one other guy, the bass player." And that's how they started. Anyway, but then because I was too tied up with 10 years after Terry took over really managing Jethro to all. And there was always a little bit of needle and competition about who's artists were doing better, which was healthy. But I think it got to the point where it became a little bit out of control. Yeah, yeah. But now you hit it big as an indie label. Some of those bands you're talking about 10 years after Jethro Tull. But this was the early days of the independent business. Wasn't it? So as you guys, I and records, et cetera. Did it feel like you were sort of changing the way that the music industry operated? No. But you were. I know. Again, we just did what we did. But yes, we were aware of Ireland records. It was originally, initially, we had a distribution deal with Ireland or licensed deal with Ireland. That's how we started off. And Chris Blackwell was doing that. He started off like that selling, you know, milly small singles out the boot of his car. And I mean, that's how it started. Jerry must with A&M with her balper and the lonely bull. I mean, the same thing. You started off with something. Did Jerry must and her balper know what it was going to build into when her balper recorded the lonely bull? No, of course they didn't. It's, you know, it's just you've got a record and you try and sell it. And the only reason that we started the record label is because we couldn't get a record deal for Jethro Tull. And then Terry, and when I got the advance from the music publishing company to pay for the ten years after flights to go to America, Terry went and didn't give it to the travel agency in my absence. But spent it putting Jethro Tull in the studio, making a record. And then we couldn't get anyone to sign the group. And we had the record. That's how we started Crystalist Records. Well, fair enough. I mean, it worked out pretty well, didn't it? And I guess you were at the heart there. The hippie scene in those days. And it was the sort of early days of the live circuit that we know today. There were a lot of casualties in that era, but you seem to cope with it. I mean, the number of casualties from that era, it's terrible to see and beyond that as well. And look, we all sail pretty close to the wind. And it's amazing that I'm still here and happy and healthy and everything. A lot of other people, a lot of my friends and contemporaries. And some that least you had expected from just didn't make it. And it was a tough life. You think, oh, touring is easy, it's not easy. And yeah, I mean, it's sad to think of the people that didn't make it. Yeah, definitely. I mean, Crystalist was one of those labels that managed to adapt to the changing musical climate. Not every label could do that. But you were successful in every era. I guess punk, you know, finished off a lot of bands, a lot of music companies. But you ended up with Blondie. You made Blondie the biggest band in the world. But they were on an independent label. Yeah, it's been quite a ride. Well, you know, Blondie was amazing. And we had Billy Eidel as well, signed Generation X. I come back to Blondie in a sec. Could assign the sex pistols. I had them in my office to sign them. And we were about five, he wanted five thousand, Steve. Not Steve. Malcolm McLaren. Malcolm McLaren. He wanted five thousand pounds more than I was prepared to offer them. And he said, if you don't, you know, say we've got a meeting with EMI. And if you don't, if you don't give us the five thousand, we get, I'm going there. I didn't believe it. It signed with EMI. I didn't think it was the right home for the sex pistols. So actually, I said, no, that's my deal. I said, I want an answer by tomorrow morning. And then I got, I think it was Chris Briggs or someone like that might have been Chris Briggs at the time working in the A&R department. I said, when they leave the office, go and shadow them. I want to see if they go to EMI. So I come in the next morning, he's never went to EMI. I said, right. So they call me up. And I say, no, that's my offer. Take it or leave it. They said, well, signing with EMI then. And that's how closely we were to signing the sex pistols. But they blondie didn't work out very well for EMI. No, it didn't work out. But you know what? They signed with EMI because they could use EMI to generate the, all of the, like, the anti-establishment publicity that they did. And look at the value they got when EMI had to fire them and drop them off the label. And then they went to A&M. And then when it didn't work out at A&M either, then they came back to me and said, well, we always wanted to be with you anyway. So it was signed with you now at this point in time. I said, I mean, twice a bit and one shy or whatever. But no, blondie, I mean, what they were fantastic. And you know, give Terry, you know, Terry, at this night's point, he signed blondie, simple as that. I didn't sign them. He signed them. All he did was call me up and say, we're going to have to buy the contract from Larry Utah at private stocking. It's going to cost something like $550,000 or something, which was unheard of at the time. All I said was, OK, go for it. That was my involved. but actually then. Because there was no kind of punk scene in America at the time and they were a punkish group. They broke first in Europe. They broke first in Australia, actually. And then in Holland, which we were handling out of the UK, then in the UK, an America came later. Because there wasn't really the right marketplace for them there. But they were fantastic. She was, is fantastic. Everything about them was fantastic. The drummer was fantastic. Clem Burke, he's just died now, sadly, from cancer. But listen to any blondie record and listen to the drumming and imagine it without Clem Burke. It ain't the same. And she wrote most of those songs. She looked incredible. She had a great voice. I mean, it was amazing. And we built them up with what they had inherently, obviously, to be probably the biggest acting in the world. And then it all derailed. Tragically, they get back together and they've missed out on maybe two or three years of when it was absolutely massive. You know, you just think of everything that went on. I mean, let's simply, we were very close to. We start, I mean, I, I, I, I, Peter Grant worked in the office above us in Oxford Street. He and I were so close, we were like that. He was like a real mentor for me because he'd, he'd done it all, especially in America. And we were the, we were the first, we were the agency for the New York birds, as they were called, at the Christmas agency and then Led Zeppelin. We did all, we did all of their early bookings. And Pete and then Led Zeppelin became what they became, the biggest band in the world and fantastic. And then, you know, that all derailed as well. And then Pete, even, even a smart guy from like, you know, the rough ends of town that's made this whole life for himself with Peter from, you know, all of the hard work and everything you put into it. And it affected him as well. Yeah. Well, that's off. And he died. Yeah. And our making through, you know, through, Chris List vision, we are working on doing a, like, a film on the life story of Peter Grant. And I think we're going to get it financed. And it will be a fascinating film. Yeah. Well, look forward to seeing that. But I guess Chris List by, by the 80s, you were kind of, you joined the establishment, you were such a big label. You in fact were chairman of the, of the BPI in the 80s. And you basically invented the, the bridgeboards knew it happened once before, but you brought them back as a regular. Well, I used to go to the Grammys and I thought this is fantastic. This is a real celebration of our industry. And we didn't have anything like it in England. And there was, I think, a music week awards or the record mirror awards or something like that. And people, and people said, we've got that. I said, no, it's not the same thing. I said, we're going to have to do it ourselves. And so I had resistance when I started it because people were saying, oh, we're going to upset, we're going to upset the record mirror or whatever, we're upset music week if we take away their thunder. I said, no, we're going to do it. And it started off as the, as the BPI awards was its first name. And it was a, you know, spectacular thing like the Grovener House or somewhere like that with, but, you know, with all of the major awards and all the major artists performing. And then I changed the name because it's the BPI awards didn't sound great. The British Record Industry Awards, which sounded a lot better. And from the British Record Industry Awards, it became the Brits. Yeah. Did you, did you think it was going to turn into this, the He-Morth. Well, it did. Yes, yes, because it actually, it was pretty big from the minute it started. And if you, we did get it televised. And if you see one of those early British Record Industry Awards, maybe even in black tie and, and, and the Grovener House or whatever, and look at that. And you'll, you know, and we had prints and, you know, we had all the major artists there. Yes. And people performing live as well in that environment. Yes, it was, it was already pretty big before it became the Brits. Really was. Yeah. Fantastic. And then, Chris Liss, so you, you kind of ended up buying out Terry. The company went public and then you sold half the company to EMI. And then you, you sold the label entirely to them in 1991. I think it was, it must have been a tough thing to, to let go of. Wasn't it after all the work you did? Yes, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really a shame that that happened. But the whole thing. See, Terry and I were 50% partners. When, when Terry left the company, I had to find a load of money to buy them out. In fact, I think I paid Terry at the time, not 50% of what the company was worth, but close to 100% of what the company was worth. Because I thought, well, if I didn't do that, I had nothing anyway. So, you know, whatever it, whatever it was going to cost was, was what I had to do. And it, I took on a massive amount of borrowing. And my finance director at the time came up with the idea of, of a merger with a, with another music company which had been started by Gordon Mills who managed Tom Jones and Anglebert Humperding. And we, we structured a deal to merge with them, which, which then they were a public company with institutional shareholders. So I went, I went from being a 50/50 partner with Terry others to being 100% owner for a brief period of time with a massive debt on my back to being a 50% owner with, with institutional shareholders. And then when you're a public company, you start using your shares to fund the business and build other businesses. So I gradually went down to being a, you know, 40% shareholder and, as, and then a 30% shareholder. So when you're a 30% shareholder, you don't actually have complete control of the business anyway. And a lot of the moves that were made were not necessarily moves that would have, that one would have done. If one had been a private company and had complete control over it, but because I never started off having complete control over it, I was never really in that unleveraged situation that I didn't have a paymaster that was dictating to me what I couldn't, couldn't do. Yeah. And then you, you kept the publishing company on for a, for a while longer, in fact, you had another label echo records. Okay. And then you sold the publishing company to BMG and to, yes, I mean, what happened was that I would never have sold the publishing company ever. But we had the record company in hindsight. I mean, I had, I had 70, 80 people working for a cent America and we had, we had a really, we had a disrupted product, though. We had Billy Idol was, apart from Bond, Blondie, Billy Idol was our biggest artist at the time. Billy had problems. Billy had his motor stock back accident, but Billy had issues, well, it's just the issues without being too specific. And every time I'm waiting for the Billy Idol album to be delivered, it's like, come down the studio and listen to it. And it's like, well, you haven't done anything since I came six weeks, six months ago. And we, we, but you can't sort of lay off your staff and say, hang on guys, we've got new records coming out for, you know, because they're coming out next week, but they weren't coming out. Next week. So, you know, we got into a mess financially with a large overhead in America. I should have, in hindsight, if I'd retrenched out of America and kept the label just in outside America, I think we could have, we could have survived that. But it got to the point where again, it was financial pressure and the way out was to do what was a 10 year joint venture with EMI. Well, 10 years seems a long time and a joint venture sounds like it's a joint venture. But when you, situations like that, it's never 10 years and you know, EMI, right, we've got one foot in the door now, we're bang the door down and get the rest. And that's what happened there. But in, in selling the publishing company, no, I would never have sold that. But an activist shareholder decided that the share price was too low and that the company was worth more money than the share price reflected very often happened. So he managed to affect a situation where he bought like 10 or 10 plus percent of the company from other institutional shareholders and then agitated to have a forced sale of the company. So he could make a quick back on his, on his investment and I got caught by that. Yeah. Did you think you were done with the music industry at that point? Well, I must say the point in time that that was happening, it was that the industry was in its very, very lowest point. It was before the streaming deal. It was when people were downloading everything for free and values were plummeting. The values of record companies plummeted to almost nothing. A record company was worth almost nothing by 2010. And I was advised by financial advisors that the same thing would happen to music publishing. And they'd stop making CDs and it would all be, it would,
music business was finished. That was for two or three years. That was the sentiment and that was the reason that was kind of boxed into that corner and couldn't get out of it. And did I think. Yeah, I did think it was finished and then when. Because that was what everyone was saying and then when MacMakuri had started buying catalogues and I think, "Well, how stupid." But of course it wasn't stupid and he was right and the deal with Spotify, which we talked about earlier, maybe not the greatest deal ever made, but at least, you know, a fraction of something is worth better than is worth more than nothing. And that fraction of something built and built and built and we got to the point now where we have a vibrant industry again. But there was a period between about '09, 2010, 2011 when the perception was that the game was up. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And then you came back as non-executive chairman of Chris Liss when Blue Rancor bought that business in 2016. What was it like second time around? Well, at that point in time, I was still under contract to the BMG as part of the BMG purchase of Chris Liss music. So I could not bid for it myself. Otherwise, I would have done. But Jeremy LaCells and Robin Miller did. And at the point in time that the deal was about to close, I was out of my long-compete situation and I could join them in a minority shareholding situation, which they wanted me to do. They felt that would help them get that deal across the line and I'm sure it did. So I went back into that with Jeremy and Robin DeVero, who was Richard Branson's previous brother-in-law, and I felt great. And I would have never assaulted it. I would have kept going with that, definitely. And yes, I did enjoy it. No, and it was a shame that I think Robin fell out with Robert DeVero and got to the point where there was a deal to sell it and which would have kept Jeremy and Robin on running it. And well, again, I had to go along with it. But I would have kept it, definitely. I mean, it was great to be back with it. And I wish I could have had a more significant role the way I could have retained that because that would have been great. Well, you're back in the business now with your own company. On the very much ground floor. Yeah. Well, that's the best, that's the best place to be sometimes. But what would you, what would you like your legacy to be as it were when people sort of look at this remarkable career of yours? Well, I think there's probably enough there that there's not to create a legacy anyway, without, you know, like striking my own thorough too much. But if I could do it again, it would be unbelievable. But I don't know if I can. But if I could, it would be unbelievable. But there's enough there already anyway. So if I could do it again, if we could even with just one artist. And I'd, and, you know, I'm not highlighting one particular artist, but if we can do it again, well, wouldn't that, I mean, I think that would be amazing. And then, you know, we had some really, really major artists. But I'd like to think there's one even bigger. Okay. It's going to be fun finding out. But thanks, Chris. Please stick around for "Latus or Greatest", which is coming right out. And if you're enjoying the money trained to be bought by Sandal and Tixle, please give us a rating or review on your podcast platform of choice as it really does help us keep making this podcast. But now it's time for our quick, far round with our guest, the legendary Chris Wright. Chris, this is called "Latus or Greatest". You can decide to talk about either the most recent or the all-time best music biz thing that you've experienced in these categories. We start with the latest or greatest record that you've bought. Do you still buy records? Well, I still listen to music. I mean, I don't go into the record shop like I used to. I really love what Bruce Springsteen was doing on the on the political side. I mean, with the mini-sota thing, the mini-appelist thing, God, I mean, I played that record nonstop. It was great. That was really, really a highlight in terms of something when I couldn't get enough of something to play. So, I might say that. Good choice. The latest or greatest gig or festival that you've been to. Well, back in the day, I've been to so many festivals that I'm not a current festival goer. It might have to change. So, I was a great gig. I went to, as just before Christmas, when Finn Forster, who we got signed to the music publishing company, was supporting the stereo phonics on his arena tour. I went to the O2. I thought that was a great gig. I think he did a fantastic job for an artist that 99% of the people wouldn't have heard of when he came on stage to really finish up with them in the palm of his hand. I thought, "Well done, well done, you Finn." I really, really enjoyed that. I was at that gig. He did do a great job. Well, well done. You thought so too. We made him a TMT tip after that. Oh, well done, you. So good stuff. Your latest or greatest music bass boss. You've kind of been the boss for a long time. Well, I knew I had to, you know, I've never had a boss. I mean, even back in the days when I alluded to, when Ian Hamilton said, "I'll give you a phone and a desk." He was kind of a little bit like a boss, although he wasn't paying me a salary. Then that ended because I had 10 years after who I was getting gigs all over the collis circuit with. Then in the summer, there were no collisies. So I asked Ian if he could get gigs in some of his clubs. He got them a club in Hanley in Stoke on Trent, Hanley, the place in Hanley, which was a big gig on the date sheet at the time in the summer. Of course, they were a Blues Rock group and they were playing at a gig where it was full of girls with their handbags on the floor dancing around the handbags and they didn't go down very well. The promoter called up in the next day and said, "Well, I'm far away from doing something like that." Yeah, the worst group. He came into my office and he said, "If we do anything else like that, I'm going to be dead." I mean, either they go or you go. I said, " Ian, I'm afraid it's me there." And I left. But that was the closest I had to a boss. I said, "Rebirth is now my boss, my P.A. She's in charge now." That's the best boss I've ever had. Okay, everyone needs a boss of some sort. But you created a lot of bosses at Chris List, Daniel Glass, Peter Edge, people like that came through. Did you show them? Simon Follas started off as a junior N.R. man. Guy Mue obviously, Ron Fair, Jeff Aldridge, a whole host of people we started off with. And I think it's a great credit to us as a company that so many people started their career on the shop floor and who have gone on to do wonderful things. So I really take that as a big accolade, actually. Fantastic stuff. The latest or greatest mistake that you've made. Well, I mean, I would have to say the thing I most regret was selling the music publishing company when I got forced to sell it by that activist shareholder. Who to this day thrives on the fact that he got one over me and forcing me to do that? I mean, I just, it's just terrible. It's terrible. There had to be a way. And how does I tried? There still had to be a way to stop that happening somehow. And so yes, I do consider that to be a mistake. And the worst ever mistake. Okay. You did famously turn David Bowie down for records. You had him for publishing. But you didn't. Well, to be honest, I didn't. It was, I mean, I've given Terry credit for signing Blondie fully deserved. It was Terry alone who turned David Bowie down for records. We did having for publishing. And I was in America on tour with 10 years after at the time and he told me to listen to the album and he didn't like the album. And I came back from America and I listened to the album. And I think Terry, what have you done here? Why did you do this? But at the time, you know, he was David Bowie had been like a one hit wonder on space oddity. And actually, I, well, I probably she went and I listened to that album, Anki Dori album, I thought, oh, Terry, no, did, but it it happens, you know, we all turn down things. We turn down diastrates. And for the first time, I heard diastrates. I loved diastrates. And I always love like guitar based groups like that. And I said, how could we turn down that? And they said, we turned, you were in the meeting. We played it and we said, I said, I cannot believe for one minute. I would be there meeting and turn, turn that down. I'd troll through the minutes and we kept minutes. I'm digging through them. And it's two weeks when I was in America that they discussed diastrates and decided to turn them down. So no, it wasn't me. But yes, it happens fair enough, fair enough. The
the latest or greatest artist that you did work with. - I mean, 10 years after we're a great live act. I mean, they were perhaps the star of the whole woodstock movie and for a very good reason. I'm Prokul Haram. I mean, I always say about Prokul Haram. On a bad night, they were very bad. On a good night, they were unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable. And I remember, I think it was at the Grand E Ball Room in Detroit, the power went off for about 10 or 15 minutes. And they couldn't get it back on and the whole audience for 10 or 15 minutes kept singing "White a Shade of Pale" like about four or five thousand people singing that whilst the techs are trying to get the power going. It was amazing. Some of the things that I've lived through with some of the artists, but a lot. Fantastic. The latest or greatest music industry party. - Yeah, I was thinking about this. I mean, again, I've had an awful lot of parties. I'll tell you one party where you talk about when we sold out to EMI. And then we always had a Grammy party for Christmas, but it was really like, wasn't that major 'cause we didn't have the budget. But then when we sold out to EMI, I went to the EMI Grammy party when the Grammys were in New York. It must have been about 1990 or something like that. And that was like a proper party. And when I was young enough to be able to have all the fun of party. And I remember there were awful lot of people there. A lot of interesting people, awful lot of supermodels there as well. And I'm chatting to supermodels and God knows what. And making connections with all kinds of people. And I ended up chatting to a British girl, a young British girl came from Stretem. And I'm just talking to her and the party is getting a bit late. And I said, well, I think it's time to go. So I'm thinking of going to. And where are you going up to and or down to? I'm going up to and I'm going up to and I'm going up to and I'm going to share a cab. Well, I've got a car outside. I'll give you a lift. OK, OK, we'll get up. Bags and go. So I walk out with her saying, bye, hi, so everybody getting the car and, you know, and she very kindly dropped me off at the Ritz-Carton on Central Park South. And that's in the next morning. I've got all of my minutes. Wow, man. Wow, how did you do that? Wow, I said, what are you talking about? Wow, Naomi, man. I said, Naomi, who? Naomi Campbell, who she? I had no idea. Fantastic. So I don't have parties like that anymore. They don't, do they? No. And we can't let you go without giving us a new music tips. So I'm guessing you're listening to a lot of new artists. Now you've got the new label. Anything getting you very excited? Well, what's in my head right now is kick the tyres by a very young female artist we've signed. Kick the tyres by Flora Fiora. And is it interesting? Can I tell you the story? Please do. I had some problems with my tech system down in Glosseshire and the guy came round to fix it. And I'm trying to get Spotify work in properly. And we've got it sorted out. And so let's try it. So let's ask to play something. Some bats they Spotify play. And this tech guy says Spotify. No, not Spotify. Alexa, Alexa play Flora Fiora. I think who the hell's Flora Fiora? So he plays this and that sounds good. Who's that? It's my next door neighbor's daughter. And she was doing a gig in the Fiddish hall. And I got Mike Batto come down who I was friendly with. Mike Batto produced the first ever hit record for Crystalist Records, which was all around my hat with Steelice Man. So Mike turns up at a village hall in Glosseshire. And Roberta came as well. Because she happened to be around that weekend and we saw her perform. And we thought she was really interesting. And so she was only 17 at the time and still at school. She's 18 now. She's very good. She's a really great writer. And she's got a great voice and a great vibe. And Mike's produced four tracks for us. And we're just beginning to work on her. And I do think kick the tires. It's a great title. And it's got a great feel to it. And it's not about kicking tires and cars. It's about personal relationships, obviously, which is what most young girls are interested in. And I think we've got a really good chance with Flora. She's-- we've got a good set up around her. And we're really hopeful that we're going to do something with her. Fantastic. Well, we will check that out. But sadly, it's all we have time for. So a big thank you to our guest, the legend. It's Chris Rott. Thank you for coming, all right. I've enjoyed it so much. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you. The money changed. The Music Industry podcast with me, Mark Sutherland, is supported by Sandom and Tixel. And in support of Err Percent, is produced by Tate Notes and exec produced by Mike Walsh with huge thanks to Sen Heiser, the fourth pillar and our friends at DVO, Digitim for our social media. The money-trunch music is by the brilliant Tom A Smith and getting touched with us, please email
[email protected]. Thanks this week to TYX Studios for their beautiful podcast studio and facilities. TYX Studios provides premium podcast and studio facilities and production assistance, right in the heart of London. Check them out at TYX Studios.com. Some of them may be here, but we have another TMT Tuesday showcase coming up. And we're very pleased to welcome our new sponsors, @venu. @venu are the leading live events platform for touring artists, venues and festivals. Great to have you on board and looking forward to making the events even better. You can see for yourself by joining us at the Victorian Dullston on August 18th when indoor foxes Beaver and Jolay will be playing in partnership with our friends at FizzBatter of course. Check the TMT newsletter at socials. Details, elsewhere, it's a quiet week for the biz as the out of offices really take over. But there's a warner music earnings call the latest rage arse out. Variety's power of young Hollywood takes place in LA. Ford Masters, Bloodstock, Cadeer Spur are calling. And rebellion festivals are on, plus there are big gigs for TMT tip Lonnie Gunn, Sami Burgy, Cicis, Assistants and Gary Newton. Whether you're on holiday or in cars, TMT will return with another brand new episode on Monday, August 10th, with another of our music biz friends electric in the hot seat. We will see you then, Chris, thanks for coming on the show and good luck with the new company. Thank you very much. Cheers. (upbeat music)
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