Tis Your Man from Hollyoaks- James Sutton!!!

Love this podcast? Support this show through the supporter feature from A-Cost. It's up to you how much you give and there's no regular commitment. Just hit the link in the show description to support now. It stands up and I'm super proud of it and it changed government policy as well. I will always try and use my voice in the right way and try and be supportive and positive and promote inclusion and visibility and you know trans rights and things like this and things that mean a huge amount to me. I feel sexy for the first time in my adult life. All right Luke, what's the crack? Sure you know yourself, he says mad as a bag of spiders. They're neck at you! It's kind of like I'm half a hoving you. I go on. You can go and shout. To a loved and half-earned. Roll it there, Rochina. [Music] Hello everybody, how's it going? My apologies for the little gap there between episodes since I last spoke to you when I had Harrison Gardner on me. But I am so glad to be back with you today and I have a string of amazing guests coming up over the next few weeks. So let's see this is chapter two of season seven. Mick Labbardon here as always presenting Tis Yourself podcast and hope all is good. If you hear my voice is a little bit hoarse, I was at the all-arlin' quarter final today for a loud playing against Monhan. Loud fun here, a lot of screaming if you saw the match you'll understand and I therefore have very little voice. But come on out. So that was just explained why I'm sounding so quirky today. I get back to you with a brilliant guest. I loved this conversation because I suppose going into it I probably thought that we would talk a lot about like Hollyoaks, which we do obviously. But I probably thought that we would talk mainly TV, mainly the role of Jump Hall and all that kind of stuff. But actually what happened was that dialogue opened up to so many different avenues. So I guess today of course is the lovely James Sutton who you might know from playing Jump Hall McQueen and Hollyoaks. One of the amazing McQueen family members. There was Mercedes, there was Tina, Jackie, Cleo, so many. And of course, Jump Hall. There were so many avenues this went into. But I do have to give you a warning that we do talk about Jump Hall's storyline, his great storyline, where he was attacked by Finn during the show. Would you talk with that and the impact of that storyline on his life and on people in the UK, etc. So I just wanted to let people know you can skip ahead that way if that's a bit too much. We don't go graphic or anything like that. It's just more talking about that actual storyline if it that is triggering for you. And I will have some help lines at the end of this chat and for anyone who feels they may need to speak to someone. But yeah, we talked with so many things. We talked with Protocol, which is his new company and how he's trying to use this to help men become better versions of themselves by doing the work, holding themselves accountable. So that's really kind of fascinating to hear how he has done this to his own life. How he feels better now at 43 than he did in his 23. We talk about only fans. I'm actually human though because I didn't get a chance to talk to him about his own podcast, which is called Mail Mind Matters. So he talks to different men in that every episode where he goes dubs deep into their story and to what's made them, as opposed a better man. To get like, we're deep into personal road relationships, etc. So if you haven't heard that after this episode is over, go check it out. I will share it on my Instagram as well, a link to so that you guys can check it out. But you know, never got a chance to talk about it and it feels bad because I'm sure as a buggerster, I know you want to be promoting that too. So it can go and give that a follow as well. Mail Mind Matters. But we have Graycrack. We talk serious topics. We've got a real mix in here today. I think you might come away looking at James in a different light. You might have new facets to his personality they never thought before. So I really hope you enjoy it. If you're listening to this on Spotify, please leave us a comment in the episode description about what you love most from this conversation, what you took away from it. I know James would love to see that. I love to see it. It'd be really cool to get some chat back on what you kind of took away from this episode. And of course, any shares or ratings or views are always welcome. Now me and my crokey boys are going to leave you here and leave you with myself at James. And I hope you feel like your partner's conversation and that you can really get in and invest in it. So here we go. Hello, Nicola. Hello. I'm so happy to talk to you. Yes, very much so. Very happy to talk to you too. As I said, I'm familiar with your show. I'm familiar with your work. You're an excellent host and a worthy recipient of all the credit that you get. So well, then you cute. Well, coming from you, that is a huge thing considering superstar. Star. Well, let's we've told each other how great we are. Let's get chatting properly. Obviously, you know, you've listened to when I chat to Sarah and to Charlie and stuff. I suppose there's no real format to the chat. Like I just like to kind of hear how you end up in an industry because I know friends. I've been I've done an act of course. It is hard work to get into this industry, but I saw that you studied drama when you were younger. I did. I did. I thought I'd take the, I thought I'd take the classical route. It's interesting. You know, I know a lot of actors who didn't go to drama school and rely. You know, solely on on on their intuition and their instincts and they are some of the finest actors. You could you could wish to meet. I think for some of us, I think it's really, really important that we do go and train and we do work on voice and physicality and creating a character and breaking a script down and improvisation. I'm not I'm not someone who would I you know necessarily say you have to go to drama school. I think it's very very dependent on the performer. And as I say for me, I needed some formal training. I have fairly good instincts. I think now, but I've kind of built that up over time. If you've met me, you know, 30 years ago, you've thought this this kind of this kid's mad. He doesn't know what he's doing with the script. So it's different for everybody. And for me, it was it was it was very, very important to go and get some classical training. So I took myself off to the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama over in Cardiff and spent three wonderful years there with an incredible year group. My God, they were so talented, which was, you know, not without it's not without its issues for me, you know, looking around the room thinking everybody's better than me. This is this is problematic. But it also gave me quite a hunger and a desire. And I think not to kind of blame my own trumpet, but the reason that I had a career that that that spent two decades is all down to hard work. It's all down to hard work. There's no sugar coating it. You know, I worked harder than a lot of people sending emails and going to classes and going to the theatre and reading plays and recording myself and watching it back. And just doing all the things that I could possibly do to put myself in the right framing for a casting director and hope that those opportunities would come, I think. You know, being an actor is a really, it's a really, really complicated game. And, you know, I work with a lot of young actors. I meet a lot of young actors and it's very complicated to encourage young people to get into an industry that I know it's going to be so vicious. And so, you know, kind of demonstrably difficult to break through. So I always try and impart on the need to work really, really hard. Just because someone's told you that you're really good, just because you might have had a couple of things on CV and someone's cast you in something, you have to get up every day and work super, super hard. It's the only way to succeed. Because it's an industry where it's so unlike most others, like if you want to work in a bank, it's people aren't going, well, you're going to get 500 knows before you get a yes. And then you see a guy that you went to class with who gets the top job in the bank straight away and you're comparing yourself and that. Like most of their jobs don't go that way. And yet it could be the guy that you set aside who just happened to get in at the right time with the right look or the right accent that they needed. Like I always think of Paul Mezkel, COVID hit terrible time for most people worked in his favor. He just got seen by people that maybe might not have seen normal people before or maybe, you know, the right audiences boom when massive hit his career takes off. We have no idea if that would have happened if it wasn't the pandemic and people in his class, I'm sure we're like. But but also, but also just to pick up on that we're only seeing we're only seeing the top 1% we're seeing Paul Mezkel gets job after job after job and COVID impact his career in a really positive way. We're not seeing the hours that he's spent sending emails to casting directors that were never read. We're not seeing all the auditions that he breps for that he didn't get we're not seeing you know the voice classes that he took the dialect coach who said I'm really sorry Paul but your American actions a bit shit. We're not we're not seeing all of those little building blocks that he probably put into place. and I would argue that I would suggest that an actor of that caliber has put the work in somewhere along the way. I think it has to be a really, really nice balance. First and foremost, it's a vocation. You have to want it more than anything in the world. It has to be the thing that drives you to think that you're passionate about. But you have to have the library of evidence that says, "I'm a credible actor because I put the work in and I, you know, these are the building blocks that I built for myself that, as I say, the acting classes, the voice classes, you know, that the going and seeing as much theatre as you can, sending the emails, my God. I mean, I used to get up at, I mean, this is, was this pre-Hollyoke or post-Hollyoke? This was post-Hollyoke. I was getting up at six o'clock in the morning, which back then for me was really early. Now that's a lie. But back then I was up at six and, you know, I was on casting websites and IMDB finding out what was being cast and seeing if I could put myself in the frame for it. Who's casting it? Who's involved? Who do I know? What's that director up to? Doing all the things that you possibly can. And I think that's the hardest thing I think for young actors is it's those periods where you are out of work is how do I make myself feel like an actor today? What do I do? Reminds me that I'm an actor because if you haven't had a take for a month and you're working every day in a bar, what point does the needle slit psychologically and you are now just someone who works in a bar? You have to do something every single day to drive your career forward, but also on a personal note to remind yourself that you're a performer, you're an artist, you matter. What you have to say, your experience that the lens with which you run text and prose and form through is so important and so unique and you have to preserve that with hard work every single day. Does that come with like a guilt when you're, you know, taking that bar job or that waiter job? Because A, you have to pay the bills, but you're also therefore not getting up at six o'clock in the morning because in doing the emails, maybe you only get to send two instead of ten. Does that come with like a guilt or like a, I've given up kind of feeling? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's all about how you kind of frame it. There is, there's something quite romantic, I think, in the struggling actor, you give that works in a bar or a cafe. There is a certain romance to that, I think, that you can kind of lean on and if your expectations are that you leave drama school and you're just going to go from job to job to job, then they're a period of working in hospitality or retail or tally sales is going to destroy you. But if you can, if you can kind of frame it as part of, part of the life that you've chosen, part of the industry, part of the job, I do this to facilitate this, then I think, I think you can kind of forego the guilt and you can sort of, yeah, you can kind of make peace with it in your own mind, I think, and I think, I think for a lot of actors, I think that's what they struggle with. You know, for me, I was working in bars, I worked in a bingo hall, they were, I loved that, that would be my anyway job. Well, yeah, you think, people here at bingo hall and they think it's going to be all fun and games, it was, it was, it was really depressing. But they were training me to become a bingo caller, but obviously I, I am, my calling, it got in the way. But you know, it's those, it's those, it's keeping yourself motivated, I think, during those lean times and, and accepting that it, that it is part and parcel of it. And probably ignore an outside noise of the home experts who were like, I read an article about a guy who said, he got his first job on the first day and you're like, that's, Al Pacino did this. Why don't you, and you're like, oh my god, stop. Yeah, but Morgan Freeman didn't start acting until he was in his, you know, his 50s or whatever, so it's different for everybody, you know, we're all on our own, all on our own journey and, and, you know, you've got to, I think you've got to figure out what, what type of performer you are, you've got to work out what your strengths are, are you a character actor, are you someone who is more suited to television, are you, are you a musical star, you know, figure out what your, what your niche is. I think some of the best actors, or, no, I'll rephrase that, some of the most successful actors find one thing that they're really good at and just do that one thing. I always use Jason Staten, there's an example of that. Now, Jason Staten is never going to play King Lear. I think we, I think we can all agree that, that Jason Staten from reading Lear is probably not a good, it's not going to happen. But Jason Staten has realised that taking his shirt off, running around and beating people up and delivering tiny little bits of dialogue really, really well is his niche, and so he's just, and I'm just going to do that one thing really, really well. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of honesty in that, and there's a lot of pride in that. I'm the best at that one thing. We can't all be good at everything. I was never, I was never particularly versatile in terms of character choices. You know, I've played, I've got some range, but, but I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm not Daniel Day-Lewitz, you know, I mean, I don't, I don't disappear into a character. So I think, I think it's understanding your own limitations, which I know can sound quite negative, but it's, it's understanding where you fit as a performer, because if you've got a good idea, where you fit, castings directors will probably have a good idea too, I think. That's so true, because I interviewed an Irish actor who's Obernallic Tim Murphy, and he has played like the bad guy in like every American TV show, Law and Order, Swaths, Criminal Lions, Aldeys, Suns of Anarchy, all these shows, he plays like Irish IRA man or Irish bad guy or gangster. And he said a few people kind of said to him, like, you know, what, is there the reason why you're doing it? He's like, these are the roles I've gotten and they're the roles who are happy to pay me and they know that when I turn up on the day, I'm going to do it and I'm going to kill it because, and then that goes on to the next cast and director or whoever. They remember, he turns up, he does the job, doesn't need to be like Mali-Cardeld or walked through it, they know he's going to be brilliant. And there's, as you said, there's an honesty in that of going, I don't have to, I don't have to do Shakespeare to be an actor, I don't have to be in musical theater to be an actor, it doesn't have to be a tick on every box, just to say I am who I am. Yeah, there's a reliability in that, you know, what you just described there is a reliability, the casting director, the producers know exactly what they're getting from. So I think for young performers especially is niche down, you know, find out what it is that you do really, really well, what type of character do you like playing? What parts of yourself do you give to a character that no one else can give? What's your thing? What's your hook? What's your niche? What's your, you know, the lousiness a choir that bubbles into the surface and just kind of hone in on that? I think certainly that was, you know, that was what I did. I mean, when I was working on Hollywood's, I think they kind of quickly identified that the storylines that were very issue-based, that required a lot of research and a lot of thinking and a lot of tears. What is going to say a lot of crying? A lot of crying, they love to make me cry. That was where I found my strength and my voice, you know, storylines around male rape and around domestic violence and around alcohol is really, really tricky subjects were things that I would gravitate towards and be drawn to, rather than, you know, sort of big bold characters, you know, villains and comedy storylines and all that. It's not really my cup of tea. I always wanted to tell the issue-based stuff, the stuff that I think on some level, I did incredibly valuable because I think the weight of that responsibility for me pushed me to deliver some pretty good performances, I think, over the years. It's so true because I imagine like I can think of maybe five moments of, you know, jump-all over all the years and they're all big emotional storylines that came to a climax or I could be just, you know, the moment he has to leave because it's got to, etc. And each person that's listening, who's a fan of the show will probably be able to think of a different one, you know, because, as you said, they did give you the tears quite a lot. But there are big stories. I think there's something that Hollywood says very well. It picks storylines that people don't really want to talk about. Instead of like happening straight away, oh no, there's that guy, he's the bad guy. It's built up and it's built up to suddenly, like the alcoholism for example, you know, he's not just suddenly drinking a bottle of vodka down the park. It's something that you kind of go with. They are, what's going on there, you know? Yeah, I think that was always one of its strengths. It's slightly changed now because the episodes have gone from five down to three. I think they're only 20 minutes long now so that the way that they tell stories has changed a lot, but certainly during the majority of my time on the show, as you rightly say, they would let these storylines bubble. They would be in the background for weeks, sometimes months, just taking a long, just dropping little plot points in a little beats that we knew we had to hit because six months down the line, there was going to be a payoff. I always found that way of storytelling. I always found that really interesting because I felt like I had a lot of control over what I was doing because it was drawn out over such a long period. I felt like I could make really specific choices with tiny little moments. I put so much work and so much thought into tiny beats that on the surface didn't really affect anything, but then as I say six months down the line, you go, oh my god, yeah, of course, That was when that started or that was what that meant and I remember that call. the station of an interaction. I always found that really interesting and something that I really enjoyed playing with, I think. You got the role of Halios, were you long out of, you know, studies now, or had you kind of, was this your big break, or had you kind of gotten something before that really getting your head in? I'd worked, I'd done a couple of jobs. I'd worked, I'd done a Linda LaPlanse. I'd done trial and retribution for Linda LaPlanse, and then I'd done. I played one of the leads in a spin-off of Dream Team, the football drama on SkyWon. There's a three-part series set in the 1980s that I played the lead in that was a lot of fun. I might have done one more thing maybe, and then yeah, Halios was kind of the first, was kind of a big thing for me really. Not just because of the scope of the job and the duration of the contract, but more just immediately it became apparent that the exec producer was heavily invested in my character. It was basically his story, his coming-out story was kind of based on him, so he had a huge input into that and sort of really kind of took me under his wing as a performer and really kind of protected me and made sure that I had so many conversations. I felt really supported and nurtured, which doesn't happen to everybody, certainly not now, given the speed of everything. Back then it was really lovely to know that I was being really well looked after and if I had any questions, there were big detailed conversations around story beats, performance, character. But also, I think because Brian based it on his own upbringing really and his own coming out, he knew where it was going, so everything could be really, really specific because we knew where we were going to be 12 months down the line and that was so reassuring as a young performer to come in and how that was really amazing. It kind of blew me away really, coming out of drama school, we'd never really done much TV at drama school, it was very theatre driven, which I think is still the case for a lot of drama schools. It's where you cut your teeth, but the reality is most of the work you're going to do is going to be TV because that's ultimately what your agent's going to put you up for because that's where the money is. So I, yeah, I was thrown into this environment with these incredible people and writers and researchers and story liners who all seem to be singing off the same him sheet with me at the center, which was just an incredible experience it really was. Like as you mentioned, you know, you're someone who likes to research and kind of like really think into a role and stuff and being a young actor, getting role like John Paul, where, as you mentioned, the coming out. So obviously the pressure of how do I play this gay person who essentially is Brian, but how do I play him when I play in this guy, but his story do justice. Also, you're opening up, you know, you have to do justice to LGBTQ community and make sure I suppose you're not a caricature or not upset in anybody and that's so much for a young person starting out. Yeah, I mean, when you when you when you frame it like that, yeah, it's quite a lot. But as I said at the time, I felt really, really supportive and I was very, very excited to take on that role. I need a significance of it. But there's something about you're kind of operating in a little bit of a bubble. You're not I wasn't really aware too much of what people were saying, you know, on in magazines or forums or, you know, the man on the street, I was very, very focused on just the storytelling. I'm just, you know, I'm a storyteller by by heart. That's what I want to do. And so it was all about it was all about the story and it was all about the truth and it was all about trying to keep everything is is. There was such important stories and I knew the gravity of them. But you can't think like that when you're the actor, you can't take on board. You know, the kind of scale of what you're doing, you have to just deal with the beats and the moments and the scenes and that's all you can focus on because otherwise you just drive yourself completely insane. So only sort of 12, 18 months down the line when they started nominating us for awards for some of the John Paul stuff that you started to think, oh, this has had a really positive impact. And then, you know, I'm obviously very proud. I'll I for a long time and the LGBT community means a huge amount to me. You know, I think I occupy quite a unique position as a straight man to have played an iconic gay character for such a long time to sort of have a foot in both camps almost is a really unique position and one that, you know, I don't take lightly. It's a big responsibility. I will always try and use my voice in the right way and and try and be supportive and positive and promote inclusion and visibility and, you know, trans rights and things like this and things that mean a huge amount to me. That's I can tie all that back to those storylines and those meetings and those conversations around that character in that storyline. You know, it was a different era than it is now and I obviously a lot, well, we're regressing a bit in some parts of the world, but, you know, imagining being a straight man getting this right and being an ally, I spent for the storyline. I don't have social media, I suppose, to the extent we have now when John Paul first joined. So did you think it kind of that it was a bit easier to kind of ease into everything because you didn't have that constant really in your hand updates. Oh 100% oh 100% the whole landscape has shifted the immediate feedback, you know, if you were to do a play a part like that now and something was wrong or a cliche or something just didn't land well with an audience, they'd let you know immediately on your social media and back then. You know, there was there was a freedom to it to make mistakes and try things out and I've always been a big advocate of soaps for that reason because even when you're doing the big issue based stuff that is really important and impactful. So these episodes of the three or five episodes a week or whatever it is, you know, there is room there to try things out and make mistakes and pitch performances in different ways and if it's shit and it doesn't work. Well, guess what there's another episode tomorrow. So there's you know, I mean there's there's there's a bit of comfort to be had in that and for me. I cut my teeth into the acting on holly oaks by doing just that by trying things out by seeing how small I could be how big I could be you know physically what what could I get away with vocally what could I get away with our support if it I need to be our local. I could bring everything down how intense could you know, can I get all of these things you if you if you two go back and watch you know the first six months of me on holly oaks that's me trying all of these things out you know seeing what the camera can pick up what the camera can't pick up how to use the lens how to use the frame size how to work with the D. You know all of these little tricks that you come to discover and learn as you become more experienced and holly x was like a you know was like a college and it was like a six form it was amazing it really was. And then I suppose there's the other side of like they might have an idea for your character and then they see you doing a scene with somebody that you is not meant to have any chemistry and then suddenly has sparks or anger or whatever and they're going okay let's rework this a little bit. Yeah this is good yeah all of that stuff that that would happen regularly jump all and now see for example it Jess Fox. I heard and I were just two students at the school and you know the characters had a few interactions but it wasn't I don't think it was ever particularly written to be anything and I may became best friends for 20 years you know because I had such great chemistry and playfulness and we could tease each other and we. You know we we try and kind of catch each other out occasionally and do different things on in different takes and have a have a real sense of imagination with the text and with the scene and they picked up on man they really liked it and you know Jess and I you know we work together on and off for 20 years it was it was a real real joy really really was and that wouldn't have happened. You know if they hadn't they hadn't noticed that you left obviously when when jump hauling Craig left together heart broken balling my eyes out at the time I was and although you went to Ireland and I remember young me was like oh so. How big of a decision is it for you you know as James to go listen I have a good number here I'm getting regular work. But I want to step outside this like is this a six month decision is a spur of the moment thing yeah I mean I was just making up as I went along I really I mean I really wasn't a huge amount of thought behind you know 43 year old James that you speak to today would have. You know gone over all of these decisions in with a fine tooth comb and worked out the optics and worked out trajectory and what would the revenue look like and what we know all of these different things whereas I was just I think I did maybe two and a half years and I just felt like I had a chief heat so yeah when I spoke to Brian he was not happy Brian was not happy with me. He was like this is my life story you're telling me your change yeah yeah yeah but you know it worked out and and Emma Dale offered me a year there I think there was an option as well I might have been 18 months or I can't quite remember but that that that was an incredible opportunity but again you know youth is wasted on the young you know I was just making it up as I went along. The James back then I wasn't taking particularly good care of myself physically and mentally in terms of late nights and partying and you know drinking drugs and all kinds of the. areas, activities. So yeah, I was just, I was having a ball, ultimately, I was having a really, really good time back then and everything seemed to be working really well. So I thought, you know, why not, why change it? You know, I clearly know what I'm doing. And then yeah, I had had a couple of amazing years on Anadale. What a place that is to work. Would wholeheartedly recommend that to any young performer if they get the opportunity. Beautiful location, incredible cast and crew, great scripts. Everything just works really, really well, very, very smooth production, felt very looked after again. And just to work with some of those actors on Anadale that, you know, I'd grown up with, suddenly in a scene with, you know, Christopher Tull and people like that. And I was just like, man, these guys are, these guys are really, really good. Hanging out with Cain Dingell in garage, you know, we had loads of scenes with Jeff. And I'd just watch him and just be like, man, this is so effortless, everything felt so effortless at Anadale. There was no kick-ball at Scramble. It was just, you know, seamless from the writing to the production side, to the execution, the acting, the editing, all of it was just so, so beautiful to be part of. And yeah, I made some great mates there and had an amazing time. And great to kind of show the UK audience, I suppose, who already know you from Hollywood, that you can switch and be a new character and be a new, a new different person than John Paul, I suppose. That's good when it's not like, oh, it's a small part, whatever, but this is a, I'm on your screen every day or every five days a week, whatever, completely different. After a week, you're going to forget about John Paul. I'm not sure if that was ever the case. And that's why I ended up coming back to him more time. But, yeah, it was, it was lovely. It was lovely. I'm not sure how rich the character of Ryan Lam on Anadale was from a character standpoint. I think I lent a lot of myself to Ryan. I was just trying to be as natural as a performer as I possibly good. I think because partly because I'd had to, I had to kind of push quite a few of my, the limits of my creativity in the first 18 months, two years in Hollywood. I was exhausted from those storylines. I mean, it was all big stuff. So to go to Anadale and have a bit of a breather and just bring everything down and try and be as natural as I possibly could on camera was a really nice exercise. And they gave me my own advert as well, which was great. I remember it. James Sutton comes to Anadale and I'm sure, I'm sure half of the ITV audience were going, but it was good, but it was a good time. You're like getting the family around someone record this interview. So I helped us forever. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it was nice because my mum always used to watch Anadale. So for the first time, you know, she could sit down and watch her program. Feed me on it without having to, you know, she was recording your Hollywoods and sticking through the bits that I wasn't in or that. She could just sit down and just, you know, absorb, absorb the Yorkshire Dales. That's a, that's a kind of cool thing to have something that you know that your family are into and you can be part of and always have that as well. And like, you know, you're saying you're a young actor and all this, I kind of miss, you know, that thing ever been in your 20s of absolutely no fear that like, if I quit my job tomorrow at a little bloody workout, like, you know, as you say, wouldn't that be that case? I would be stressy. But the other part I missed of that, like, ah, you know, I'll just go out and have a night out and I'll go to work at, like, I'll come home with six and I'll go to work at seven. Like, I don't miss it, but I missed that of like, I don't care. I just still do what I want to do. It's because your nervous system is operating on a completely different frequency. If you and I stayed up all my drinking and partying and then went to work, the anxiety would kill us. We would have a nervous breakdown. Whereas, you know, 10, 15 years ago, that was fine. I, you know, there was a culture at Holly Oaks back in the day of late nights and parties. Every night was something on. It was just the way that it was, you know, we worked hard and we played hard and there was always a level of professionalism. Nick Picard who plays Tony in Holly Oaks, he kind of set the standard party really hard. I mean, oh goodness, me. Could that man, that man could drink, but he would turn up on time. Is lines were learnt? He would be the first one on set, you know, his behaviour, his attitude, everything was absolutely on the money and he'd give you a performance. So that was the standard. That was the bar that we would all have to reach. Whereas now, you know, if I was to, if I was to go back into acting, I'd be up for weeks learning my lines. I'd be, you know, I'd make sure, you know, everything and even then I'd probably still be anxious. And why does the anxiety start in our lives? Because I swear to God, I feel like when I was in my 20s, I never, I wouldn't even know what that word even meant. I'd be like, what are you on about? Like, you know, and then parties and now coming into 40s, you're just like, like part of me is like, effort to most things because when you turn 40, you're just like a campy, I was boring anymore. But the other part is I'm worrying about things I never worried about for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's partly knowledge and information. We, we, yeah, we build more of a picture of what makes us anxious and what doesn't and stimuli and all of this. Whereas in 20s, you're only really focused on yourself. Aren't you quite selfish in a way, I suppose. But as you sort of open your mind to newer things and the wider, you know, framing up everything just makes everything more difficult. You're listening to the Tiz yourself podcast. This episode is in partnership with Sisterhood Journals. Sisterhood Journals is a business helping women come together to events, journal and workshops. To find out more about our products or to come to any of our events, we have a graphic social soon and a girlhood quiz night. You can find us at Sisterhood Journals on Instagram. I remember talking to Alib Assy and when she was talking about that year, I suppose, like living with the girls in Hollywood and going out and stuff. I suppose it was different for the women because they were all afraid of like the paparazzi getting a certain shot and like a really, you know, those circle of shames and magazines and shit. But what was it like for being allowed at that time? Like, was it like paparazzi or was it like tabloids or any of that? Did you have to face that? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're right to frame it with gender. Women so experienced it far worse than we did. You know, I mean, the journalists and paparazzi's back then, it was just brutal. You know, just desperate to get a shot of one of the the sort of sexy, poly-extars, you know, looking, looking bad was, you know, was all they cared about. And it was brutal. You know, I think there was a pressure from the show as well. Back then, you know, it did kind of paint itself as a sexy show. So, you know, the female artists were, you know, there were scenes where they were written in bikinis, lingerie and all of this kind of stuff. And, you know, that sort of thing just wouldn't fly now with good reason. You know, that's just not how we do things. But it was a different time and you can't hold up today's standards and today's you know, morals against something that was 15, 20 years ago, to 30 years ago for someone like Alibastu, you know, it was a different time for the men. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we'd, you know, they would be paparazzi and stuff when we'd go out and we'd all go out together as well, which would make the whole thing, which, but more of a spotlight on us, I think, but very subtle. But we were just, you know, we were just young and lads having a good time. And, you know, this was the you know, this was the naughty, this was the era of, you know, loja magazine and, and, you know, FHM and all of that. Yeah, I was pre-Nutzen Zoo, but it was, I think that was that was a little bit later, but it was definitely loaded magazine. It was definitely trying to think of other examples, but it was that very kind of laddy sort of culture. Britpop was, was kind of the charts and, you know, there were photos every week of, of Liam and Noel, you know, falling out of bars and peed-dockity, Amy Winehouse, you know, that, that kind of ethos of, you know, there was a real appetite, I think, for people misbehaving. So we grabbed it with both hands. I think we were lucky that there wasn't more in the press around that time, I think, because we got away with a lot looking back. We are very, we we we, we we we銀 ocase to the line a few times, I think. Look be glad you have those stories and nobody does, so you can be like "we'll keep them". I can't remember any of them. That sounds like me. I'm like "did I? all rice okay?" Yeah. Here comes the anxiety thanks to tell me. Yeah, yeah, I see photographs and I'm like "Jesus, I have no idea when that was taken or where, but I look like I'm having a good time". You're smiling and you're you're waiting for the party. Exactly. Hopefully it's all good. Exactly. Tell me about, you know, the storyline I suppose that kind of means the most here that you did in that time of of Jump All. Probably the male rape storyline I think was the one that's certainly the one that I invested the most into, I think, from a research standpoint. We were very, very specific as you would have to be to cover a topic like that a half past six. And Hollyx was the first. This was, you know, it's since been done, I think, on EastEnders. And I know it's been done on Corey as well, but Hollyx was kind of the first, which is all off in the case, which is, you know, it's just a very nice thing, I think, Hollyx to have, you know, the original. But yeah, it was the one I put the most thought into the most work I worked very closely with a charity called We Are Survivors, of which I'm now an ambassador, who do amazing work. I met male victims of sexual violence sat down with them. But always we always had a script supervisor on the floor with us to work if there was anything that didn't quite work or sound right or needed for nesting. We made sure that the process after the violent incident in terms of him going to the sexual assault referral clinic. That was all done exactly as it would be. We had advisors and researchers on hand, Duncan from We Are Survivors was always there. We knew we were telling a really, really special story and yeah, it affected me a lot. There's no way you could tell a story like that without having a visceral real life response to it. I'd get home at night and be so exhausted and so emotional with it all. Talking about these topics all day long and projecting it onto yourself and just take its toll. But the team were great. The team were really, helpful and supportive as they always were with the big stuff. But I was super proud of it. I'm still proud of it now. I think it still holds up now. We made some really bold choices in some of the telling. I remember the episode after John Paul was raped. The whole episode basically follows John Paul through the day after. What that looks like and I think he eventually confides in Steve, I think at the end. I made the decision quite early on to cut all of my dialogue. I didn't want any, I wanted no dialogue in that episode. The episode opens with me with John Paul in the classroom where he's been attacked and kind of pulling himself together and he goes and tells someone then he goes to the sexual sort of thrill clinic and then he goes home and he goes to the village and I just cut all of my dialogues. I wanted him to be silent. I wanted you to experience it through his eyes rather than vocally which was quite a bold choice. I remember the puppies and conversations about that but it stands up and I'm super proud of it and it changed government policy as well. We are survivors used that storyline brought it up in in in Parliament to get funding for the first time for male victims of sexual violence through the Ministry of Justice. They used John Paul's story lines in the example of what happens and it's an incredible thing to have been part of, to have changed, to have been a small part in changing government policies. Yeah, you never think that's going to happen as an absolute incredible, really incredible. That is incredible because while we were talking about I was thinking there's people out there who watched this fin and John Paul and John Paul going through the motions and knowing what to do then if it got forbidden ever happened to them. So there's people at home who've experienced it or potentially future experience and know what to do. So you're affecting them but then to actually have something in law you can stand over. You never anticipate that when you get into an acting school that this is where your life is going to help. I mean it's you know again I think it's I think I think it's so soaps over the years have not just woven themselves into the fabric of our society in the UK but they they're so important because they're on night after night after night and the storylines and and and and there's such big teams of people and they really take risks and predominantly they have always taken risks and yeah it's it's testament to them it's also testament to the channel as well you know channel for a green to put story line out like that out at half past six knowing that holiocsys demographic is is a young audience I think it's like 13 to 30 or something like that you know it's brave of them to tell these stories brave to have have a male rape on a half past six and the even the people have in their teeth but it's that bravery that you know that that means that we have these changes and we have these conversations that's the thing that interests me the most is the conversations is the dialogue that it that it starts up you know families fostering conversations about topics that they ordinarily wouldn't people watching young people watching storylines for the first time be it domestic violence, male rape whatever it is suicide drugs addiction all kinds of stuff for the first time seeing a reflection of what they're going through you know and I'm being in a situation where they're able to have these conversations because of what they've seen on television I think is a really powerful thing and and it's almost like you'll never know the impact of that I suppose in a way as an actor you'll never know like you might he meets someone numerous times might meet people who say I went and got help because of what I saw whether it's domestic violence or the alcohol or this or whatever but you'll never actually know like how far that's gone because it could have been someone who comes to me and I say well listen I saw on Hollywood cinema what about these these could help you and like if you hang up your accent shoes forever and you go continue doing a different path there wherever you could always look back and go that is something that I will stand over forever oh my god 100% honestly I yeah you've hit the metal med nuclear if I never if I never act again and right now I don't really have any plans to I can look back with such pride on the stories that I've been involved in and the impact that my my character in these these stories have had is is something that no accident would ever dream of you know you get into this industry because you love it and you love performing in this there's a hunger and a need to a tray this but you never think that it's going to have any impact and yeah I've I've I've I've run everything out of out of that I would have ever wanted I could never have dreamed of having the you know two decades a career that I've had I wasn't the most talented I don't think it performance when I was young I had a real desire and a real passion and I think I've always been able to take direction really well but I wasn't the best actor by any stretch as I said at the beginning of our chat I've worked really really hard and everything I've got out of the past two decades is because of that hard work and that diligence and that that willingness to to go at the go the extra mile you know because that's I think that's what it takes and I think audience is now especially now you know with the with the TikTok generation and the and the immediate nature of events attainment people can see through bullshit they need something with some depth which is why you know you look at shows like add the lessons and things like that that do so well the reason they do so well is because of all the hard work behind the scenes that Stephen Grimm and and the cast and crew put it you know I think hard work stands up even now even more than it ever has because everything is so quick and so direct and so throw away in some ways and yeah my my career is basically that in a nutshell but yeah as you mentioned you're not you're you're not proceeding yourself in the acting world for the future tell me when did you come to this realization what was it like was it again a slow burn you kind of think and I'm burnt out from this or like what brought you there I think it was I think it was part necessity and I don't want to put anyone off you might be listening to this who's who's thinking of pursuing a career in the arts or as an actor but it's hard out there and I don't think I had I know I didn't have the I didn't have the capacity to be a 43 year old out of work actor I just didn't have the capacity I I know so many actors who are incredible who are working in restaurants and bars and tell your sales and dog walking and that's absolutely fine I think at some point I think you have to balance your ambition with your quality of life and I think that's just a really rationing thing for any adult to consider and for me being I'd gone back to holiote before covid which was a stroke of genius I mean one of the best decisions I ever made I'd just been a play that had transferred to New York for a few months so I've been I've been over there and then I came back and I can't remember how how the opportunity came around but I ended up going back to holiote because I met Ryan and he said yeah I come back and so I came back and I worked at holiote all the way through covid we were key workers that that took its toll filming two meters apart was no fun it just took all the joy away from what we were doing with all the covid restrictions and then 2020 one blood into 22 into 23 into 24 and I was just like I think I'm done I think I'm done with this character I don't think there's anything more that I can do I am sensing from the writing that they don't really know what direction to take my character in there was a few things that happened my on-screen sister had a terminal cancer storyline and I didn't get a single scene with a Mercedes I cancer and I didn't have one scene with her and I just thought wow like you know I've and listen is you know probably wasn't intentional I'd like to think it wasn't but if there's no room for John Paul and Mercedes to have a heart to heart when she's dying of cancer then I don't really know what my place from the show is I don't know what it looks like anymore so I came to the decision to to to leave holiote and I knew my contract was going to I signed a one year extension knowing that that would be my last year I was done I think I was emotionally checked out at that point as well so I started building everything that I've been doing that I'm still doing now with my with with protocol which is my my brand and my website and my speak my public speaking and my writing and I'm going to start coaching as well so I've got lots of different things I'm doing with that so I kind of went all wack into that and I think in doing that it gave me some autonomy over my life for the first time because when you're on a long running show, you outsource a lot of your value to decision makers that, you know, seeing a big picture, they're dealing with, you know, a cast of 50 or whatever it is in Hollywood, they don't care whether John Paul's had a scene with Mercedes because James feels a bit pissed off about it, that's not like, and certainly got so many different things to juggle. But building my own stuff and having that autonomy gave me my pride back that I think I'd lost over the last couple of years, my sort of professional pride and my sort of self worth that I'd unfortunately outsourced to a company which should just be a business transaction like any other job but as you said at the beginning of our conversation, it's different to working in a bank when you work in a bank, you go to a nine to five and when you leave at five o'clock, you don't think about the bank, the bank does not matter anymore. But when you're an actor, you take that home with you and you think about it and you think, well, why am I going to have a storyline for two years? Why am I, you know, playing second fiddle to this actor or that actor or whatever it is? So to have that autonomy over what I was doing was just exactly what I needed. So I just, I followed that thread and that's what I'm doing now, you know, I don't have, I love acting, I love performing, I'm not saying I'd never do acting again if the right, you know, if the right project came along, but I'm not actively seeking work right now. And I don't imagine Pee Gebliners are going to call anytime soon. They might do it if they do. Can you give it a go? Take a few things. Oh my God. Oh, of course. But I don't imagine out of all the submissions they get there going to think, I wonder what that guy used to play John Paul's up to. I don't imagine that's going to happen. So as it stands, I am so happy. I wake up every day and I feel very grateful and I feel very excited about the day I had and I love what I'm doing. I love being service. I love trying to affect change in people. I love helping people build some structure and some direction and maybe work on their identity a little bit. I teach self-trust, helping people to become reliable against themselves. These are the things that get me out of bed in the morning, I think, becoming a behavioral strategist is opposed to, you know, taking on my character and dealing with the scripts just feels like a really good fit to me. One thing I suppose people might think of is that essentially because we mentioned you have quite heavy storylines, you're in an over-course of 20 years. Eight of those years you've probably spent crying and while people might say that flippantly, but realistically you had to go into work and know that the day ahead of you was awful topic, really emotional. I'm going to have to cry six times, seven times, a pen and how many times digs to get the scene right. I have to talk about the most horrible situations. I have to act out the most horrible situations. That takes a toll. Like anybody who had to go in every single day and imagine going through a domestic violence situation for however many months that goes, they take tolls on your mental health. Yeah, you took to a degree, but it's so difficult. If you know you've got a big storyline, you'll know that this storyline is going to run from September through to January. So you know that period between September and January is going to be heavy. You're going to be in all the time, so you're going to be physically exhausted. You know that you're dealing with emotional stuff, so you're going to be emotionally exhausted, but you can kind of go right. I know it's just for that five or six month period. The difficulty comes when you're not in the big storylines and you're not being challenged and you're not having to really give too much of yourself. That's what we want as actors. We want to be challenged and we want, yes, it's exhausting, but there are times when you shine, when you're under pressure, when you've only got half an hour at the end of the day and know you've got to get this performance in, you've got to get this seen done because you're losing the light and we have to shoot it today. And the first day, Dee's looking at you like, please can we get this in? You know, when the crew have agreed to stay 10 minutes later to, you know, to de rig. That's when I think we actors perform our best. When there is a little bit of pressure on it, I think from certain even me, that was always the case. The difficulty was when you're only in for one scene a week or two, six weeks a week and then the rest of the time you're saying, well, this is no fun whatsoever. There's a trade off. You trade off your tiredness and how tired you are emotionally and physically and it's draining and yes, you're rightly saying, dealing with these difficult topics. But that's the joy. There's a lot of joy to be had there as a performer. You know, that's where the magic happens, I think, in its which it's the opposite is true when you're not doing those storylines. That's when you feel you're itching for something else. People who listen to us who are not in the acting industry who probably think, oh, like I can't believe we gave up a job and it's so glamorous which it isn't, I completely get that. But there's actually so many people who are in the wrong jobs who aren't in acting, but probably feel the same way you did. That's why am I drained? Why am I still in this company that I've been with for however many years and I'm done and I was done five years ago. But because I wanted, you know, I needed the money or I wanted to know what I was doing every day or whatever it is and the reason for keeping themselves in a job. I've got kids and I can't do this. And there's so many people that would never take the step that you've taken to go, I'm going to put myself out there and see what happens in the world. You just mentioned it then. Some of these people have children. They have responsibilities that I don't have. I recognize the privileged position that I occupy and that I don't have children. I'm not married. I don't have any responsibility apart from keeping myself in the cat alive. As long as I can keep two of us alive, we're good. So taking a chance, like leaving a long run show like that, it's not as risky as it might seem. And I, as I said, I ran all the metrics and it was a worthwhile decision. But for a lot of people, I think a lot of people are probably objectively doing really well from the outside. They have a marriage and a family and a house and a car and a job and a watch and they are so unfulfilled and fed up and trapped and bored and they are living the same day over and over and over again, especially men. So to pivot 180 back to what I was talking about before, I want to help these men. I want to find these men and I want to help them and I want to introduce some ideas into their life that have helped me in the past and that I know are really, really valuable in terms of finding some clarity because that's the other thing. If you're working 50, 60 hours a week in a job that you hate to go back to a family and children, you are responsible for. There's a lot of pressure there. I want to help these men find some clarity, build some structure, find that space, find that clarity, thought to see what else is out there for them. Because a lot of these guys are, they've done all the things that they were told to do. They were told to go to university or get a trade and work hard, get a pension, get a family, have some children. They've done all the things they were told to do in society, let them down. Their parents let them down. They didn't turn out how they were supposed to do. You were supposed to do all the things and then you were supposed to be really happy and fulfilled and they're not. I know what that feels like to have done all the things you were supposed to do and to be unhappy. I know what that feels like to have gone to drama school, to have had a career, to have worked really hard and to still be unfulfilled in to quote your words back at you, a glamorous job. It's a really, really personal thing and to be in the position that I'm in now to be able to help and advise and support men who are in that situation feels like a really, really good fit and it's what gets me out of bed in the morning. I love the passion you're in, you can see it. The minute you start talking with this, this is where you come alive. You're literally, if you're seeing it right now, you're built up, you're talking and you're really happy with it and you're smiling so hard. If someone's listening and the words you just said is them, they're like, I'm living this life which isn't me and I think so many people do it. I even looked, we're just gone past Father's Day. I've seen so many people I know who put up these glowing tributes to these men and I'm like, you never see them. They're like, you know, oh, best at ever. Like, work seven days a week, you never see them. They don't help you. You know, they never mind the kids. I'm like, but yeah, they're like, Dad, I'm like, I'm not saying the dad is worse than than the mom is. I'm just saying, you're not living the life that you, I suppose, are projecting out there and probably want. So like if a man wants to work with you, like, you know, what, what does that entail? How did the contact you? What do you, what would you offer them? Come over to my website and the James Sutton.com. It's called Protocol. Initially, there is a, there's a three life audit tool that I've built on my website where you answer 25 questions and you get a, not just a diagnosis, but you also get a prescription. It's all based on psychological techniques. It's not something that I've just developed on a whim. There's, there's all kinds of stuff in there that will give you an idea of where you're going wrong at the moment. What might be leaking your time and your energy and your focus and your relationship with yourself might be suffering? There's also my email on there. People can reach out personally if they, if they want some, you know, just want to chat. I always reply to messages personally. My DMs are always open on Instagram. And as I said, I am, I am looking to start coaching some men individually on a one-to-one basis. And at some point, I will, in the future, I will develop a course specifically for men in this situation to try and give them their lives back. That's what we, that's what we want. You know, these are hard times that we live in. This world that we occupy right now, certainly in the United Kingdom is not one that facilitates personal growth. It really doesn't, it really doesn't, hard, everything is expensive, everything is violent, politically, it's very, very tricky out there right now, economically, it's even trickier. So I think all you can do is bring it back to the self and, you know, start working on yourself privately and build some structure and build some clarity and some direction because without that you are just going to carry on living the same day over and over and over again until eventually you collect your pension and that's basically it. There is another option and I think I can help with that. I know I can help with that. So yeah, come over to my website, the Jamesson.com. I'd love to see more men do stuff like this because the pendulum swings so far, it's both especially the moment where we're seeing, you know, obviously the atmosphere and the annotates and all these influences that every woman like rolls her eyes so far back in their head even though they're being told this is what women want and we're like, do we? So it's so nice to see people like yourself who are known but are working on themselves and making big decisions and bold decisions but knowing it's okay to try these things and it's okay to talk about trying them and maybe like bringing up things that other people are not speaking about and not being afraid about to talk about them. Yeah, I think a lot of it is down to self awareness. I mean that plays a huge part. I'm incredibly self aware and I'm exactly who I am. I know exactly what my values are. I know what I stand for. I know what interests me. I know what I know it excites me. I know which direction I'm headed in and that feels amazing and a lot of people don't have that and again, I say this is from a position of immense privilege and that my time is my own. I don't have to answer to anyone. You know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't want to answer it anyone except for my dogs and I have no idea what I'm doing in life. I'm just going to head over here and I'm sitting here going, oh my god, I don't know anything. Yeah, it's, it's, it's tricky and it's tricky for a, I know I speak as a man. It's tricky from a male point of view, you know, to reference the, the manosphere that you just brought up then, you know, the idea of what masculinity looks like was handed down from our grandfathers, which was post-second world war when, you know, you weren't allowed to be vulnerable and you weren't allowed to ask to help and you weren't allowed to admit that things were falling apart privately behind the scenes because the country just been bombed. So shut up and get on with it and that was passed down to our fathers and passed down to us and now we're in this weird situation where the world we occupy doesn't fit with that version of masculinity. So we need to redefine what masculinity looks like and we need to include tolerance and patience and kindness and strength of character and being a leader in a sense of bringing people together into the community. But we also have to accept that men are flawed and it's okay to ask for help and it's okay to take the first step and to try and just to try, just to try to be willing to try to, to go, you know what, I'm not happy, I'm not fulfilled. This isn't sustainable, right? What can I do? That takes courage but the other side of that is real beauty and real joy to be had and some real growth and development there. And that's why I look at people and if they've done something terrible 20 years ago, you know, but if they've grown or if they're acknowledged in it, I'm like instead of being like let's cancel them straight away or anything like that. I'm like if they come are showing by making steps like just completely off top may head, I think a Spencer Matthews, everyone talk of him as a drunk all the time, being an asshole when he was on maiden child, he's breaking hearts. You look at him now, doesn't drink anymore, family man, very open about his feelings and talking about emotions and his family. And you're just saying how is this the same guy but he did the work and that's the good thing. You can see that he did the work. Yeah, 100%. More power to him as well, I've stumbled across his page on various platforms a few times and stopped for a minute and had a little look in and see when he's up to him. He's absolutely smashing it. He really, really is. You know, whatever he's doing is clearly worked whether that was therapy or counseling or whatever. He's kept small promises to himself. He is reliable to himself and you can see it in his eyes and the way he talks, he has built up a library of evidence that says I am someone that I can trust and that is something that is hugely lacking in men of my generation is internal credibility, you know, constantly breaking small promises to ourselves, keeping promises to a job in a career and external reliability, 100% but internally just boring apart of the scenes. And a lot of these guys have tried to self-help through, you know, they've bought the books, they've downloaded J. Shetty's latest podcast, they've seen what Mel Robbins is up to. They've shouted affirmations in the mirror and it's had no effect. We need to present an actionable alternative and I think that's what I'm doing with Pro2Cop is offering some real actual guidance and some actual actionable steps that will get you from point A to point B in a really interesting and thoughtful way as opposed to, as I say, you know, just downloading self-help books and podcasts and hoping that that's going to make a difference because I think for a lot of people that are looking to change, we get a dopamine hit from the idea of change rather than from change itself is why we have new years resolutions because we, you know, we think that's going to be great. I'll make new years resolutions, yeah, but it's not going to change anything. You know, so we have to, I think we need, I think we need an alternative. So my sort of post-self-help kind of ethos, I think, I'd like to think might be the alternative, I don't know, but yeah, you're, I don't even know what your original question is, I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but whatever work for Spend Some Matthews gets at him, if you want something else, I might be able to help. Well, in that case, are you happy now, would you say you're happier now at 43 than you were, the James at 23 that maybe had this completely different life? Would you say that you're more comfortable in yourself now than? Oh my god, 100%. Oh, 100%. I had more fun back. But at what cost, Nicola? At what cost? Yeah. Yeah, I absolutely, I know exactly who I am now, and you know, I have a structure that facilitates this version of me perfectly, down to routines that I have, promises that I keep to myself, exercise, things for my body, things for my brains, things for my soul, my spirit. I have really good practices and I'm functioning incredibly well, and I'm very, very tired all the time, which is a really, really good sign because I'm tired because of the work that I'm doing, and that is, that is a really good sign. There's nothing, there's no better feeling than being exhausted from the work that you've decided to do yourself, that is an incredibly rewarding experience. And yeah, as I say, I wake up every day, I feel grateful, I feel excited about the day I had, I don't live with regrets, but I like this version of myself a lot more, and I think, I mean, yeah, I'm really excited about what the next two decades is going to hold. I love that. There's an excitement of both starting this new chapter and getting yourself into a completely different role, and a way, kind of, also not knowing what's going to happen, and everything is a possibility. And did I see, did I see somewhere that you're also on only fans? Did I see that? You did see that, yeah. Wow, that's another avenue for you, and new avenue, but I saw you're also using it for mental health as well, not just sexy pictures. I mean, using it for mental health is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. This is what someone tipped it as, using mental, using his platform for mental health, and also sexy pictures, and I was like, say what happened to me? I think, yeah, I mean, I speak to a lot of men on there about a variety of different things from mental health, to career, through to, you know, kinks. I chat about everything. I run the page myself, and I'm having so much fun with it, the guys at OF have been amazing, really, really supportive. It's a really, really good platform. It's very inclusive. It's very modern. You feel very, very safe and protected as a content creator on that. And I've done some work for OF TV as well, which has been really, really good fun, which is accessible for work platform. It's another side of me, you know, I feel sexy for the first time in my adult life. You know, I was never somebody that took particularly good care of themselves, and that was reflected in, you know, if you look at Holyoke, so I was never topless in any of the scenes, because I didn't have any body confidence for the first time I do. I think, you know, women historically have, I think, always felt sexier than men in a lot of ways. And, you know, I'm a 43-year-old man, and I feel very sexy, and I like posting pictures of myself in my pants for the first time. You know, more power to me. Yeah, this is the thing. People have all these ideas of whatever, you know, what OF is, but the other side of it is, it makes you feel good about yourself. Who gives the shit? Like who? Oh, I'll give the shit. It's been, honestly, it's been so rewarding. It really has. It's been great. I've loved being on there. It's been great fun. It's been great crack, as they say over there. And, yeah, the response has been great. I've got a little community of people there, and, you know, as I say, I post every day, I run the page myself, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it. I don't, I'm not thinking too far down the road. I'm, you know, I'm making this up as I go like the rest of us, but I'm at a stage in my life now where if something interests me and amuses me and excites me, then I'm going to follow that thread and see where it takes me and that's basically how I'm operating this life right now. Well, I tell you now, if I ever get to the stage where I'm able to say to someone, I feel sexy, I feel good about myself. I, geez, I join any fans, because I tell you that. If you feel that good about yourself that you can say those words, it's fucking amazing. to be able to say that. How many people can say that? That's 100%. Nicola, if you want a referral link, you can, I'll send one. I'm signing up right now because it's just going to quote. We'll get your page so, honestly, they'll, they'll love it. They'll absolutely love it. I somehow did. No one's, no one's looking for free. So no one's going to pay James. But I saw your pictures on your Instagram and I was like, he has the girls and the gaze signed up no doubt. I, yeah, there's, there's a, there's a real mix. Well, I have had the loveliest time talking to you. Thank you for all topics we've gone through, which has been a roller coaster, but amazing. So thank you for being happy in yourself that you can speak about all these different things. You're, thank you. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for giving me the platform and the time and the space to have this conversation. It's been really, really special. Thank you. It's been lovely. And you let me know if you're ever over on this side of over in Ireland. Well, I'll bring you out for a coffee or whatever it is that you do these days. Whatever you're allowed. I don't, I don't, I don't respect myself. I don't respect myself. I still like it back to one. Don't worry. Fabulous. I know a great place. I'll bring you there. God bless. Thank you. God bless. Taxi later. Have a good day. Bye. Bye. Bye. It's me, the cookie girl. I'm back with my lack of a voice. I really hope you enjoyed that chat there. We just had a lovely time and we just, it was so like always listening back to editing it. I really was like, why we really ventured into so many different topics that it would be hard to kind of like describe this episode. It's not like we said, okay, we talked about holiocs for an hour. You know, that that wouldn't even cover anything that we discussed. And hearing is the work he wants to do. Why he left the industry, the burn out the, the feeling that you aren't providing the best version of yourself. Like when he mentioned this, that jump hold it and have a scene with Mercedes, when Mercedes had the cancer shoreline, how it meant to list that like it drives me mad in zoax, antibitials that are like long running when the writers or whenever don't mention past characters or don't mention things gone by. And holiocs has been very good like mentioning Tina and stuff like that. Like people who've died in the past and you know, stuff like that. But to have him there, James there on set and they never think let's put the brilliance this together. And let's talk about that. Like it boggles the mind. And as he said, he hopes that was not intentional. But I can understand why he would lean into this as a way to kind of oh, well, look, this is time for me to leave because you've done your storylines. You've done them all. The big ones, you know, we mentioned that, you know, the male rape, there's domestic violence. There was alcoholism that was kind of coming towards the end of of jump holes storylines. There was the big romance, there's the breakups, etc. So yeah, so it's like to live inside that character for such a long time, they have that character inside you to not then see that player on screen. You know, what a family dilemma is kind of strange one. You think topologist, even if it wasn't a big heart, herities in the scenes and he gives her some advice. I do. Yeah, embuggles my mind. But if you like to really mentioned about protocol, anything, I would get me interested in getting some coaching done or just having a chat with him to see what I need. Head over to the James Sutton.com. That's his website. And as you mentioned, he is also on Instagram and you can slide into his DMs there. There was loads of info on his website because I read so there's like some letters and stuff and you can go on and read them and see if it is for you. And I think anyone who tries to bear it themselves is amazing, no matter what way you do it. And be an open to learning and education and different ways of life is how we all live on this planet together and how we learn to get on and be happy around your children. You know, I just love having James on and I love that end conversation we had about him and only fans were talking about being sexy. And like I don't know what's an art thing. I don't know if it's a woman thing. I don't know. But like I just laugh when he said that because I'm like, I could never say that about myself. And like, you know, I love the people who have this confidence in themselves. I'm not judging them. I'm judging myself because I can't find the words to say things like that. So when he said I was laughing, I was like, yes, that is fucking it. I would love to get to that stage in my life where you're just really happy in your own skin. And you can say whatever you feel like you feel sexy, you feel good about yourself, you feel fit, you feel whatever it is. So yeah, maybe you want to go and join his only funds. If you look at his Instagram, you'll see them. Some sick people just there. So if they're I'm guessing they're even sex, you're only found so off you pop. We did mention a couple of episodes that you might be if you're a fan of Holly Oaks and you enjoyed this chat. You might also enjoy. So Sarah Jane Dawn has been on me twice on the podcast now. So she played Mandy. I also had Alibastin who played Becca. That was a really interesting job because she's just was recovering from concert when we spoke and she's moved to Ireland. So it was really, really, really fascinating to hear her point of view on the early days of Holly Oaks with the the pops and the sexy, the photoshoots and the upscirting and the stuff that that's also really, really interesting conversation if you haven't heard it already. And Charlie, weren't of course I also had him as well. If you'd probably last go, these are really, really cool chats. All of them are very, very different from each other. But I if you love Holly Oaks and this is your first time here in the podcast, this could be the streamer episodes for you to go back to actually four, the two chat that's here. Anyway, I've waffled enough. My voice is probably going to give over nine or about two seconds. As I mentioned before, if you listen to some Spotify, please leave a little comment in the description of the episode. Just let us know your favorite moments, what you liked and what you took away from it. It could be your favorite Holly Oaks storyline that John Paul was in. Tell me, just leave a little comment and love to get any new ratings or reviews on no matter what platform you listen on Apple, cast box, Spotify, always lovely to see the numbers go up there. I'll be amazing. So I'm going to go ahead and I have recording another fascinating guest this week. A potentially two. So yeah, things are on the open. I'm feeling really, really good about the podcast. I think this year is really our year. And I think that big things are going to happen when you're really on that 100,000 downloads. So share this with any Holly Oaks fans that you know or any man that you think need to hear this conversation and put it on your stories, send them what's apps. I would be so, so appreciative and you would make my day. Now, I'm off to rest this voice and get it ready for when now that are in the semi-flying all the best look out yourself wherever you are today. Oh, sorry. Before I go, I did say I was going to give some help lines because we did discuss the male rate storylines from Holly. So in Ireland, men's aid Ireland are really, really good. They're incredible work they do. And you can get them on men's aid. You can call them on 015543811 or email them at hello@men's aid. Also, the Ray Crisis Center in Ireland is for men and women. So you can call them on 18778888. Over in the UK, as James mentioned, survivors UK do bring work. You want to the website survivors UK.org. You can email them. They have a. You can go on to the rep chat, which is it seems going to the website. It's highlighted in blue. You can call them on 08010332 or they also have WhatsApp numbers. If you want to the website, that would be there. It'd be easier than me calling it out for you. Obviously, they are a request in England as well as the same here as the same as in Ireland. It's for all genders. So you can call them an 08052222. I pick ones that I know do incredible work and I know they're a safe space for people. So thank you so much for listening to this episode. So I'll be back with you next Monday. Thanks again. All the best and look after yourselves. Bye. Slán, swan, swan.