55: Tips for Social Anxiety from a Communication Expert with Michelle Huillet

Hello, you socially anxious sentient balls of stardust. This is StruggleCare, and I'm your host, Casey Davis, and I'm here today with Michelle Hewlett. We're going to talk about social anxiety and when you have to be in a place where you have to be social, you have to be public, and we're going to talk about some tips and tricks to do that. So Michelle, will you introduce yourself? Tell us what you do. Hi, Casey. Thank you. I am Michelle Hewlett, and I'm an interpersonal communication instructor at Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon, Go Beves, and I teach interpersonal communication to college freshmen and sophomores, which means that we talk a lot about relationships in our course. We also talk about listening, nonverbal communication, emotions, and of course, social anxiety. So one of the reasons why I thought this was an interesting topic is because a lot of the bulk of my work is talking about kind of accepting us for who we are. And there's a lot of different reasons why someone might have social anxiety. And for those of you who don't know what social anxiety is, it is specifically an anxiety around fear of judgment. So being in an environment where you're so afraid that everyone is looking at you, everyone is scrutinizing you, and then that creates even some physiological, some sweating, some nervousness, some heart palpitations. So that's kind of the specific social anxiety definition that we're working with. And there's a lot of different reasons why someone might experience that. And I think it's really important that we know that it's okay to be a shy person. It's okay to be introverted. It's okay to be neurodivergent. It's okay to have any number of reasons why you dislike or prefer not to be at social events or to speak publicly or to have to shake hands and kiss babies, as I call it. But that being said, there are times in our life where there is something that we want for ourselves and our life that is on the other side of interactions like that, that we need to be able to get through or we want to be able to get through to get to that goal. So I would love for us to talk about what kind of tips and tricks that you give to your students when they come in. Let me start with this question. What kinds of things do your students say when they're talking about social anxiety? Like, how do they describe that in your class? Yeah, that's a great question. Something that I do hear from students is that it's very difficult for them to sometimes go to class when they experience social anxiety or maybe, you know, today in particular, they're just feeling particularly anxious. It can be difficult to go to class, particularly maybe a small class when, you know, in my class, you know, we do participate with each other. We talk to each other and we do games and activities. So sometimes just going to class is a big thing. Another thing I hear from students, and this was also my experience in college, is that we're often told, you know, to be a good student, you should sit in the front row. And, you know, I love when people sit in the front, that's great. But as a student, I never did that because when I sit in the front, it feels like everyone is looking at me. And even though I know now that we're all kind of thinking about ourselves all the time, we're kind of obsessed with ourselves, but in a good way, not a selfish way, it does feel like the spotlight is on you. So that's something that I hear sometimes just going into class is hard or even being out on like a busy campus or in a crowded area can be a source of social anxiety. That's why something that I have talked to about my student with my students is that even things like sitting in the back of the class is totally fine. That way you can see everyone. And, you know, no one is really looking at you except for me, the teacher, but I'm looking at everyone. So that's definitely something I hear and something else I wanted to point out is that when students talk to me like one on one about their social anxiety, I am always really surprised by the students that share that because they don't look like people that struggle with social anxiety. They're people who often look comfortable in class or they seem really happy and really confident and they just have it all together. And there's been several students even this past term that shared that with me and you would never guess that they struggle with social anxiety because they look like they're totally comfortable and they connect well with people and they participate. And I think that's just a really good reminder for those of us myself included that struggle with social anxiety. Sometimes we feel like we're the only ones, but that person sitting right next to us who's smiling and seems really comfortable and confident might be feeling scared to death inside. So just because someone doesn't show that they're anxious, doesn't mean what they're feeling on the inside could look totally different than the outside. So that's just a good reminder too. Sometimes it feels like I'm the only person that struggles with this, but a lot of people around us who look totally comfortable. That is so important because part of what happens with social anxiety is it becomes its own anxiety feedback loop. You feel uncomfortable and then you're anxious about the fact that you probably seem uncomfortable and then you're anxious about the fact that people are noticing how uncomfortable you are with how uncomfortable you are. And it makes it worse. And I love that sort of observation from your standpoint, which is it's likely that nobody even notices you're feeling that way because it's so hard to pick out in a classroom who's feeling socially anxious and who isn't. And I love that your first tip was sitting in the back of the class because I feel like this approach where, you know, for a long time, I feel like the way we address things was like all challenge. And we didn't really talk about accommodating. And there are points in our life where like that's the main thing we need is accommodation. But I love this idea that when we're approaching an issue like this, that we need a combination of accommodations and challenge, right, like and coping challenge, like coping skills that are a little challenging, right? So, you know, you might say, okay, one accommodation is sit in the back of the class. One accommodation is go to this event, you know, an appropriate amount late so that maybe not everybody looks at you as you come in or maybe a little early. So you're the first one there, right? Like there's ways to accommodate. It's not all just like you said, smash that anxiety out of you. You can't be successful until it's gone. And then there's also like ways of coping that might be a little challenging to you, which is like challenge yourself to say one word or challenge yourself to answer one question, right? And so, you know, what kind of other things do you have that people can use if they want more accommodations or if they want more of those challenges? Yeah, so I'm going to answer the part about accommodations first. And I think one of the best things that we can do if we feel comfortable and safe, depending on the environment, is just talk to someone about it, whether it's a friend, maybe it's a coworker and you feel anxious during meetings at work, or, you know, maybe you're in college and you want to talk to your really friendly communication instructor during office hours or via email and just say like, Hey, I have a lot of social anxiety. Sometimes it's hard for me to participate in this class. Like, you know, what can I do? And I find that sometimes just talking with this student, even just for five, 10, 15 minutes is really, really helpful. So if you're in a place and I realize not all like supervisors and instructors might be comfortable or safe people, but if you can find someone around you, maybe it's just a friend kind of in your social group and just saying like, I feel really anxious at these events or I just I feel really unsafe or uncomfortable, whatever it is, just being able to talk to someone about it, I think is a good first step. And I think that's kind of a good first step for accommodation. So sometimes that, you know, I'll tell students if you know, you're feeling particularly anxious, like, you can always step out of the room, you don't need to ask, you don't need my permission. If you need to just like step outside and use their restroom or get some water or even just get some fresh air. Well, and I don't know how it is now, but when I was in college, like, there were whole classes where there was like 25% of your grade was participation. Yeah. And it's interesting how they all paint participation as having to be active public social participation. And to your point, like, approaching a professor and saying, I experienced some social anxiety and I'm committed to doing my best, I wanted to know, are there other ways that I could demonstrate participation in your class that might be a little easier for me than, you know, just having to talk in front of everyone? Yeah. So I have a couple ideas for that. One way that we can participate, whether in a classroom at work or even just if we're hanging out with someone is just non verbally, just like showing that you're listening and paying attention, making as much eye contact as you're comfortable with. You don't have to stare someone down. But, you know, when I'm teaching, like, I appreciate that people are, you know, looking at me for a good part of it. They're not just staring at their phones or looking out the window. Not that we have to make serious eye contact. But, you know, people are looking in your general direction or, I don't know, my instructor friends and I joke we love like the head nodder in class. It's something that just like nods their head and smile if they get what you're saying, which you can do by looking down at your notes, right? Like someone who's looking down at their notes and nodding their head is different than someone staring down at their phone. Oh, for sure. Yeah. People taking notes or when they say, you're going to want to write this down. This is super important. Or, you know, circle this in your workbook. I really want you to pay attention. Like same people highlight that or circle that. Those are always that we can participate. And sometimes, you know, we'll do things where I'll say, like, you know, talk to your neighbor in class about this concept or, let's see if we can look up this word in in our book. So instead of talking to everyone or having everyone's eyes on you, people tend to be a little bit more comfortable with talking to that person sitting next to them. Just kind of one or two people to talk to as versus an entire room and giving them like something to do, like look in their book or something like that or do an activity together can be another way to participate as well. Sometimes we'll play, we'll do different games. Like, have you heard of Kahoot? It's just fun, like online quiz games. So it has music and everyone just gets out their phones and we just kind of log in with a code and I'll have like a like a test review. So I'll have like 10 questions that are going to be on the test. Just true false multiple choice. And they answer with their phones and whoever answers the quickest gets more points. It's just like a fun little competition. Oh, that's lovely. When you first said there's a game we play, I thought, Michelle, I am the most extroverted person in the world and I would want to die if my teacher was like, we're going to play a game together. No, but that's genius to play it on your phone to have it. It's like a private public experience. And I also was thinking like when you were talking about those nonverbal cues, I know for me sometimes when I'm in a meeting and I know that it's easier for me to pay attention if I'm not looking that sometimes I'll even just express that before we get started, which is like, Hey, I want you to know that I pay attention better if I'm looking down. So I am listening and I try to still find a nonverbals that I'm comfortable with that can express that. And it made me think of your accommodation about sitting in the back of the room because I think that it kind of depends on who you are and what's best for you. Like if sitting in the back of the room, maybe that is what makes you comfortable enough to raise your hand, right? But then also if you're someone who, Hey, no matter what, I'm going to be too anxious to raise my hand, letting a professor know like, Hey, I really can't cope very well with being like cold called, but I like to sit in the front because I like for you to see that I'm paying attention. I like for you to see me taking notes. I like for you to see me nodding my head and like, I will give you cues that I'm listening. I'm just, I'm not a student who's going to raise their hand a lot. And I am a student who's going to get extremely anxious if you call on me. But it's interesting how like you almost could do the opposite, which is sit in the front and say, like, can you grade my participation based on your observations of me paying attention? Not my, you know, putting my hand in the air. So those are great accommodations. What do you have by way of, well, let's do this, let's take a pause, we're going to hear from a sponsor. And then I want to come back and talk about maybe some challenges that people can do little baby steps to get a little more comfortable. Okay, we're back. So talk to me about some small little baby step challenges that people can do to get more comfortable. Yeah. So I called us kind of getting our feet wet. So you don't have to go to every social event and be in large crowds, but are there things you can do to get your feet wet? So a little bit of a challenge, you know, you can do it, but it won't be totally overwhelming. For one example, if you're, I don't know, maybe your friend is having a large birthday party and you just don't like large social gatherings, like I don't. And I like small things, but your friend is really important to you and you want to show up to their birthday, right? It's about them and not the social, the whole social thing. And so I think a way to get our feet wet is really just maybe kind of like you said before, just communicating to someone like, Hey, I'm probably going to be able to stop by for half an hour or an hour. And then, you know, based on how you're feeling, if you're feeling anxious and overwhelmed, you can get out and just telling your friend like, Hey, I want to be there for your birthday. I've really been struggling with some social anxiety lately. So I'm probably just going to stop by. I want to see you give you a hug. And then I'll probably just need to leave in about half an hour or whatever the timeframe for you is. And so, and then that kind of gives you an out, but I always think it's important to communicate. So instead of just coming to your friend's birthday and immediately leaving just like telling them or giving them a text or whatever, like, I really care about you. I want to be here for you. I'm probably not going to be able to stay that long. It's just about communicating. Like you said, like communicating with your professor, you know, I really have some social anxiety, just being able to tell people like, This is going to be hard for me, but this is what I'm capable of doing. So that's kind of what I consider getting our feet wet. And there's a lot of different ways we can do that. So maybe you don't want to go to your big neighborhood potluck, but maybe you can go for a walk with a neighbor you've been getting to know, right? Like maybe that would be more reasonable. So what's something, what's a tiny thing that would be a little bit of a challenge, but not overwhelming that you feel like I never want to leave the house again, I mean, I'll lock myself in my room and never leave. Right. And another thing I want to talk about, and this is just a principle that we teach an interpersonal communication, something that can make us feel anxious in social situations that you referenced earlier, was that sometimes we feel this pressure to be perfect. I have to be perfect in order for this event to go well, or if I'm grabbing coffee with someone, I have to be perfect. And if I'm not perfect, this is going to be a disaster. But an interpersonal communication, we teach that we're actually drawn to people who show and communicate their imperfections. We like imperfections. And this truly makes me think of your work, like me and so many other people are drawn to you because I can relate to the dishes in the sink in the messy room and the not having a perfect house. And so sometimes we feel in our head like I have to be perfect in order for this to go well, but actually the research tells us we like people who are imperfect and who show that and communicate that because we're imperfect. So when we meet someone who, you know, has some flaws or maybe kind of embarrasses themselves or is there something weird, we like that because it reminds us of us. And that's a real connection point. So sometimes we think in order to connect, I must be perfect. But we know actually connection comes from imperfections. So it's okay to, as cliche as it sounds, be yourself, like be a little goofy and weird. That is where connection lies. It's a really great way of turning that concept on its head. And I kind of realized early on when I was trying to make like new mom friends, that it feels like the first time you ask someone for help, or the first time you're vulnerable around someone or you feel a little embarrassed around someone, it feels as though you're asking someone else to sort of hold a burden for you because you've messed up, you're not perfect, you need something from them, you know, you're going to be in their debt, you need like the first time you feel like you kind of need grace from someone, you feel like you're the like you're putting a burden on them. But in reality, people feel so much more comfortable asking for help when someone has already asked them. And people feel more comfortable being vulnerable when someone has been vulnerable with them. And people feel more comfortable not being perfect when someone else has not been perfect first. And so what I did was I started thinking that, you know, me kind of being this like fumbling human, it's not making someone else bear a burden, it's actually me doing them a favor. Like it's me taking on the burden. And I would joke like the metaphor is that I always used to joke that my spiritual gift is going first in a buffet line. Because I've just for some reason been to a lot of things where it's like, whether it's a large family gathering, or it's like, like you said, like a community potluck or a birthday party. And as soon as someone's like, okay, the food's ready, everyone just stands there. And everyone is hungry. But like nobody wants to be that first person to go through the buffet, because you kind of you just feel like, okay, I need to defer to everybody else. But then everybody's trying to defer to everybody. And I started doing this in my early 20s, I jokingly was like, this is my role in these situations is to be like, okay, I'll bite the bullet. And I make a joke about it. And I always go get my food first. And I realized that people were actually really grateful because they're like, thank God, like it's too embarrassing to be the first one and to be judged by, you know, that person went first. So I was like, you know what, I will take this burden on for all of us. And it's funny because people will generally think like, thank you, I was so hungry, but I did not want to go first. But I've been trying to think about that in an interpersonal sense too, which is like the first person to mess up is actually doing everyone a favor. So well said. And this is something I'm always telling my students, like sometimes to be a good communicator, it means you have to go first. It means you have to be able to one that like opens up and says like, Hey, I've really been struggling with my anxiety lately, or I really don't like big social events. Can you all help me out? Right? Like I feel like sometimes we're all just like looking at the people in our life waiting for someone to go first. But just like your buffet example, like as you were saying that I was like, okay, you're the type of person I want to be friends with. So when you go first, then I know I can go through the buffet line. I'm like, Oh, what a relief. Like you just take the pressure off of everyone. So we really, yeah, sometimes we have to just kind of go first and be a little weird and awkward. And we're all very weird and strange in our own ways. So when someone else, this is what we call reciprocity when someone else goes first, then I can too. And I like what you said about asking for help. You know, we talk about this in our class and I asked my students, how many of you, if a really close friend or partner needed help, how many of you would want to be there? You'd want them to reach out, everyone always raises their hand. So sometimes we can actually ask people in our life for help, like, is there someone in your life who you think they're really good in social situations or they seem to have it together or they're a good communicator? Like, can I ask them for help? Can I say, I have a real hard time when we go to brunch or I have a hard time speaking up at this meeting at work, but I want to make sure my ideas are communicated. Can you give me some suggestions? Can you help people love overall? I think people love to help each other out. There's actually been studies that when someone feels like you are indebted to them, they actually see you with much more graciousness. And you'd think it'd be the opposite. Like, you would think that it's like uncomfortable or something. And a lot of people don't know this, but when I gave my TED Talk, when I gave my TEDx talk, I messed up in the middle of it. I completely blanked and forgot what came next. And I'm talking crickets in my head. And it was in a place in the talk that I had never forgotten before. I had never shumbled before. And what happened was I was like going along and I was giving it. And the audience laughed at this point that like, wasn't really supposed to be funny. I don't know if they were feeling like nervous, but it caught me off guard that they laughed at that point. And so I was like, oh, they're like, so then I had to pause for a second to let everyone kind of the laughter die down. And then it was just blank, nothing. And I like, I ad-libbed like a line. And then I just thought, you know what? I don't have it. I had to look offstage to one of the coaches who was like following along. And I said, I don't know. And she had to feed me a line on stage in front of these people and this camera crew. And then I had to go, ah, that's it. And then I looked out at the audience and smiled. And I said, don't worry about it. They'll edit this out. And everyone just burst into laughter. And then I just went on. And the other thing that I realized was that because everyone's like, oh, your talk, your talk, your talk. And I've even had friends that have done talks call me and be like, I'm just so nervous. I'm going to mess up. And I'm like, well, yeah, I messed up. And they're like, wait, you did. And I'm like, yeah, they edited it out. But yes, in a big way, in the biggest way you could mess up a TED talk, I messed it up. And what I've learned from that situation though is that like if I'm watching a public speaker and I and they mess up, like I don't have any feelings about them messing up. But when I can tell that they feel really embarrassed and really uncomfortable, that's when I start to feel embarrassed for them and uncomfortable. And I'm like, oh no, I don't want you to feel this way. I feel so bad. And like that's what makes the audience uncomfortable. And so in that moment, like acting as though it didn't bother me, even though it did, even though it was embarrassing, even though I was internally freaking out, but just acting as though this is no big deal. Don't worry about it, guys. It made the audience not nervous and not register that as a big deal or as a failure or as anything wrong. And so so I was able to just pick up where I left off and just keep going. Whereas like I think that if I had fallen into that hole of I've messed it up, oh my God, I've messed it up. Oh my God, this is the worst thing ever. Like that's what freezes me. That's what kind of makes me like go down in flames and not be able to move on. And so recognizing that like, if I fake that it's okay, everyone's just going to go with it. Even if I'm messing up, like if I almost like normalize the messing up, that is like the biggest gift you can give to any audience is like, oh, thank God, we didn't want to have to feel embarrassed for you. Yeah, it just makes you think of kind of like laughing at yourself can be a good way, you know, to do that a little bit of like, you know, kind of poking some fun at yourself, you know, I have to do that in my classrooms because I mess up all the time, you know, I'll say turn to page 24, and I'm talking about something and it's on the wrong page and they're like, what are you talking about? And I was like, I just wanted to make sure you guys were paying attention. But it's just like, it makes you a little bit more relatable. And I was like, Oh, whoops, I've just gotten ahead of myself for, you know, I forgot what we did in our last class, because that's just human. And I think that the more I open up in my classes, the more students can open up to me and the more they can stay after class and say, I like that you said this thing today. You know, I also struggle with social anxiety. And that is something that I share with my students sometimes, you know, I teach this class typically of about 30 people and people are surprised that I'm very introverted, I don't like to leave the house. And I also struggle with social anxiety. Even though I come to class and I seem prepared and I probably seem like remotely competent. Inside I am worried about what people think about me. And when I share that, it's just like, so many students are like, me too, me too, me too. So I think when we open up and we laugh at ourselves or like, whoops, I messed up there, it allows people to say, Hey, I messed up in this way, or I relate to you here. Michelle, I really appreciate everything that you've said so far. And my main takeaways are kind of those two perspective shifts that you offered that was number one, you know, probably no one can tell. And probably more people are struggling this with you and you just can't tell. So if you can't tell that they're anxious, probably they can't tell that you're anxious. So, you know, we can breathe a little bit. And then that idea that sort of like, it's doing someone a favor to be the first person willing to mess up, to be the first person willing to fumble, like that really is doing the person in front of you and even the group around you a favor and people will feel grateful for it. And most of the time instead of judging you for whatever little human mistake it was, they actually are inwardly relieved that, you know, if they then are human, it's going to be okay. And so in some ways, you know, I think that's huge. So Michelle, I appreciate everything that you've said. Do you have any like little last words of wisdom for someone who is wanting to maybe try something new this week, despite feeling socially anxious? Yeah, I would just say be really gentle with yourself, you know, take really small steps, make a small goal, you know, make it a goal to stop by an event or, you know, make it a goal to just engage in a small talk for 30 seconds with a co worker, give them a compliment, ask them for help, ask them a question. Instead of saying, I'm going to throw a big party at my house, like that's just not realistic. But is there a small goal is, is there someone that you've been wanting to get to know? Or maybe your goal can be like, I want to talk to one of my friends about my social anxiety. And I just want to tell them I've this has been hard. And this is why sometimes I cancel at the last minute, when we have plans, like a really small step that again, yes, it's challenging, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Can I maybe ask someone for recommendations? That's one of my favorite conversational tips. People love to give recommendations, whether it's food or entertainment, or, you know, where to get your dog groomed or where's the best park, like people, I mean, I love to give recommendations, I could probably talk for hours, you know, when someone's new in town, like, can I ask a co worker? I love your haircut. Who's your hairdresser? Can you give me their contact information? Maybe that could be a goal for you this week, or maybe your goal is just to talk to someone about how you're feeling, or maybe your goal is to make a goal. Maybe you're not sure what that next step is, but maybe just keep it on the back burner and be on the lookout for an opportunity of, you know, I want to give that person a compliment, or I want to talk to that person next to me in class, like, they're always so nice, I'd like to get to know them. And sometimes we're always thinking about ourselves, which is just a human thing. But something I'm always telling my students is that no one is thinking about you as much as you are. And this might sound a little extreme, but no one hates you as much as you do, right? So, like, we're so hard, we're so hard on ourselves. So sometimes I think of it instead of thinking about myself and my social anxiety, maybe by talking to this person in class, or maybe one of my co workers, or maybe getting to know one of my neighbors, instead of being about me, maybe I can offer this person a sense of connection and community. And even if I feel awkward, maybe I can help this person feel a little bit more connected and a little less lonely. And that makes me like, that helps me branch out instead of being about me. What can I offer this person? Can I have a pleasant conversation for a couple minutes? Can I give them a compliment? Can I help them by opening up? Like, what can I do for you? So instead of thinking about myself, I'm thinking about someone else and how I can contribute to their overall connection. So I think that can be a helpful way to approach it. That's a great tip. Like, it kind of sounds funny, but like find someone in the room that looks even more anxious than you, and then be like, I'm going to do this person a favor by, you know, complimenting their shoes by asking them if they know where the bathroom is. Like, you know what I mean? Like just fight, like, they really can't help to switch that. So and then I wanted to give a little shout out for anybody that is looking for maybe some specific coping tips to get them through when they're in social situations. There's a book called the anxiety healers guide. It's by Allison Sepanara. And she's a licensed professional counselor. And this little book, it's called the anxiety healers guide coping strategies and mindfulness techniques to calm the mind and body is chocked full of small little grounding exercises that are something that would work really well with being in a social environment with people and feeling anxious to kind of help regulate that nervous system. So Michelle, thank you again. And I really appreciate all your tips. Thank you. It was so nice to meet you. And I know you talked about your TED talk and I wanted to tell you I share that with my students on one of our discussion boards and we talk about it. And I share tons of stuff from your book with my students. I reference you all the time in class. So I'm just super excited to meet you and your work is all thank you. It's changed my life. And I've recommended your book and all your podcasts, your TED talk to just everyone and the people around me, it's really helped. So you're helping so many people. And yeah, I'm so happy to meet you. Thank you.