Tinashe: Broke Boys, Golf Bros & Short Kings

What is up daddy gang, it is your founding father Alex Cooper with call her daddy daddy. Tynashe, welcome to call her daddy. Hi, thanks for having me. I am so excited to have you here. I was thinking about this on my way here. I was like, the year was 2014. Yeah. And I was a freshman in college. I had horrible extensions. Yeah. You had to. It was the right of passage honestly. My hair was like silver. I had really bad eyelash extensions that were like kind of like coming off. Yeah. And when Tuan came out, the pregame was never the same. Anytime I felt like I was like, I need to feel something. I would put it on. I would get ready and I would feel so confident going out tonight. And since then you have continued to release music that makes me feel that way. And you've also just continued to really navigate a difficult industry and make a name for yourself while also not losing yourself, which I'm very excited to talk to you about today. Thank you so much. Of course. That's always the goal. It's like make the listener feel like her best self. And then when I was doing research, I was like interested to learn that your personality, you say you're a little bit more low key. I'm very low key. And you're interested in things like aliens in the lockness monster. How did we get here? How did that start? Yeah. Tell me everything. No, that was like my elementary school fixation, like library books. I was like, what are we learning about the conspiracy theories? Like I was diving in deep from from a young age, you know? Oh. Questioning everything. Very Aquarius, I feel. Or you still like that. I'm definitely still like that. But I'm like not like deep on the lockness monster. I feel like I've found out everything there is to find out at this point. They still haven't found her. So it's like, oh, you're like a full expert. Okay. Sort of. Is your for you page is like a bunch of conspiracy theories? Oh my god. No, not anymore. Not anymore. It's plants, honestly. I'm like a plant mom big plant girl. Is your place just filled with plants? I have like 50 plants. What's your favorite plant? Oh my gosh. I can't make a favorite. They're like my children. So there's your whole house. Yeah. My whole house. My favorite plant is a plant that my mom's had from college. And she like propagated it time and time again. It's had babies all over town. It's beautiful. What else is on your algorithm? I'm trying to think of like Tannache opens her phone and I'm like, what's going on over there? No, it's so funny. My IG, whatever is full plants. Like it's so funny. But yeah, I don't know. I like to keep it that way. I've curated it. I was going to say to a tea. That's your tea. It's so calming. You know, when like you get on the wrong side of the internet and you're struggling and then you're like, I don't know how I got on the side or just like negativity. And you're like, working so hard to rework your algorithm and like, I'm watching the cooking video that I'm actually not even interested in, but like this will be my new algo. No, the worst is when it's like someone that like, you have beef with or like an enemy and they keep coming up and you're like, I don't want to see this. You're like, press it. It's so scary. No, it's the internet is a scary, scary world. But I'm glad that you've curated yours to make yourself feel better. It's peaceful. It's great. How would your friends describe you? Oh, good question. I don't know. Very probably, you know, hard working, all those things, a perfectionist, somebody who constantly is striving for that next thing, raising the bar for myself. But like, you know, I enjoy just hanging out and like being with the girls, being with my family, being outside. So I think they would describe me as kind of low key. Low key. I don't know. Okay. I saw a writer describe you once as a post apocalyptic baddie who is making art and dropping it low in the face of life's paradoxes. Wow. Does that resonate at all? I feel like that was very much my last era. I was giving that like with nasty, you know, I was kind of like the aesthetic. Like you're in the, I was kind of like being chased by surveillance. That was kind of like some of the themes. I was experimenting with that was I also think like a big theme that you explored in your last album was like contradictions. What are some contradictions you've realized maybe within yourself over the years? Yeah. I mean, right away, we just nailed one, which is like, I'm very introverted and also very extroverted in a lot of ways. Like I love to be alone. I love like my free time. I love not having a huge group of people around me. And then on the flip side, like I love to entertain. And I love to put on a show. I love to like be in front of an audience, which requires people. So it's like, there's this really interesting kind of juxtaposition there and kind of like a contradiction, I think. But like, yeah. Are you someone that recharges by being alone or socializing? I like to be alone. Okay. I like to be in my own space with my cat, just like doing my thing. What's your cat's name? PJ. PJ. How old? He's eight. Now he's a grown man. Wait, how long do cats live till? Like 16? Oh, okay. He's got a while. Oh, we're good. Oh, wait, hopefully. Okay. Oh, PJ. What does PJ stand for? Prince Jr. Wait, and was there a prince senior or a prince? How did Prince Jr. You know, Prince. You know, of course, Prince. He's the junior. I see. And then I had another animal. Well, my dog, his name was Jackson. You know, I see the threat of connectivity. I see what you're doing, I see what you're doing. Something that also I was thinking about when we were talking about contradictions is one of them being for me that comes up a lot and I think as a woman, maybe it's like the contradiction between being confident and being vulnerable is a fascinating one to me. Oh, yeah. And I'm wondering how do you personally balance those two in your life? Yeah. I think I use my art as kind of the funnel for my vulnerability. I think it kind of gives you a safety net in the sense because it's art and it's under the guise of art. And so it allows me to have these vulnerable moments and express myself in ways that like, maybe I wouldn't day to day as easily. So like the conversations, things I want to say to someone, the feelings I want to get across, emotions, I'm putting it in the art. If it comes to like, even just like the way I express myself and like my confidence and my sensuality, my sexuality, like a lot of that is like in the art. And so it's like a really interesting vessel for me to be able to like, I guess, express myself. Like have you ever had it where you're like, I'm so good at expressing it in my art. And then when it comes to relationships, I'm like, oh, yeah, oh, it was that in me. Okay. So it's easier for you to just like pour it into the work, but maybe in your real life, you're still trying to figure out that balance. Yeah. I have to honestly, it's been something that I've worked on a lot is being able to speak my mind a lot of times. I kind of identify with being like non-confrontational and like not wanting to stir the pot, but I have a lot of thoughts. So it's being able to bring that to the surface, being able to be real, which I think is something that I learned also with being able to run my own business, like going independent, being able to like make my own art. Like I think that makes you, it forces you into the position where you have to be really real with how you feel about things. That's a good point. I want to go back to that because your origin story, when I was researching you, I didn't realize that you started out in a girl group at 14 years old in what ways did like being a part of a group kind of impact the way that you found your own identity and your own voice. Yeah. I think it was the first time that I'd experienced the music industry at all. I had no experience. I was not like, you know, a part of this industry at all. I just knew that that was where I wanted to be. So it was probably the biggest, just initial learning experience of like being in major recording studios, going on tour, like seeing how the industry worked, learning how to, you know, just whatever it is, like on a fundamental level, kind of like go through the motions of what it means to be an artist. And at 14. At 14. Yeah. Yeah. What was I doing at 14? Not that. 14? I loved it. Oh my god. 14, girl, we were going to, we were rehearsals, we were learning all the choreography. And didn't you during that time, um, you opened for Justin Bieber on his My World tour? Yes. That's literally like the biggest flex. It was so amazing. I can't even imagine it because that tour was when it, we, were you a believer at the time? Oh, of course. Okay. Oh, so it hit even better. Oh, of course. I was so happy to be there. Because that was kind of, I feel like the beginning of when Justin became Justin, that tour changed everything. Yeah, it did. And it was really palpable in the room to like be in the, I still to this day probably have not heard like decibel levels in a, in a arena that loud like the girls screams, the screams were out of this world. And I just remember getting like so overwhelmed with like emotion and excitement and just being like, this is where I belong, like this stage, like it was just so much fun. I also bet that must have been really inspiring as exact as to be in a position where you're watching someone at the beginning of the height of their career. Who did you look up to growing up? Britney Spears, Janet Jackson, Christina Aguilera, the pussycat dolls, Destiny's Child, Beyonce, you know, the best. Girls. When I was reading, I read that kind of the success of Tuan, you talk about how it was kind of like almost somewhat like a double edged sword. And you have said for you specifically that there was almost like confusion of how to market. which I think is really interesting. Can you talk more about that? - Yeah, I felt like I didn't really have a place to land and I had to continue to push back against, I guess, what people expected, or how they expected me to water it down or change it or mold it to make it make sense. - That also must have been so frustrating 'cause you're trying to be authentic to yourself and you're trying to create your own voice. And yes, you have these people that you look up to, like a Beyonce or like a Brittany, but you're carving out your own lane. And I think not even in just music, it's very relatable where if something is the set and stone of like this is the standard, people just kind of want to be like, okay, do you fit in the Brittany box? Do you fit in the Beyonce box? Do you fit in the pussy cow doll box? And if you don't, then they don't know what to do with you where it's like, but at some point they carved their own lane. - Of course. - So you have to have an open mind in industries to allow people to be like, I'm gonna disrupt this in my way, but that also requires people to have confidence and trust the artist, which I feel like and speak from your own experience, the lot of time the men in the suits and those positions think that they know what's best. - Of course. - But you're the person with the talent. - Yeah, I mean, but they're looking at a young girl and they have done it time and time again and XYZ. And I think a lot of times that can be very confusing. And for me, it was really, really important that I left that situation and was able to really remember that like my instincts and the type of music that I make regardless of whatever label people want to put on it is what I should do. Like ultimately, that is the answer. That is the best art that I'm gonna be able to make is gonna come from myself, of course. - And you share a little bit more about like how being so yes, young in the industry when you were feeling these pressures, how did you navigate trying to not conform and not kind of just give in? Because I can imagine it's hard when they're like, "Yeah, just look like this, do this and act like this and have this be your image and put this outfit on." And then we can support and do this and you're kind of like to do that and lose myself or to maybe not immediately get as many opportunities but stay true to myself, how did you navigate that? - It was really tough. I felt there were a lot of moments where I'd honestly felt that I didn't have the choice and I felt like I had to in order to not, there was this kind of looming idea of like being shelved. Like people talk about like being shelved. And that's basically like when you're signed to a record label and they quit funding your project. So you're still there but you don't have access anymore to like the money from me. - And you're just putting on the shelf. - Yeah, you're just put on the shelf and you kind of get stuck there. And it's like a classic story. It's happened to many, many people and many artists. So you know, especially as a young person in the industry, you want to work with the people who are, you're working with and you want to be somewhat cooperative but it would be, it would be really interesting being in these rooms with these older men and it would only be me and I would just be like, I think, I think it should be like this. And a lot of times it would just be like, oh girl, girl, no, no, no, no, no. And they're, you know, doing their thing and it's always like 10 dudes and me. It was just a big learning experience. A big, yeah, I think I grew up so much and learned so much through that experience. - Who the hell did you lean on for support? - Yeah, I mean, my family, honestly. I mean, they weren't with me in these rooms but like obviously I have like a really supportive family system and that's kept me really grounded in this industry because it can be super tough and it's very isolating, it's very lonely. A lot of times you are the only person in these places and in these rooms and advocating for yourself as a young person can be hard for someone. - And so intimidating. - Yeah, yeah. - I just feel like the music industry is such a hard industry to get into and it's like your mental health and your wellbeing and your creativity. It's like you can protect it as much as you can try. And I'm sure it's hard, like I'm sure you've seen artists where you're like, oh, like I know I could have done that. - Yeah, yeah. - Right? - And like you're like I could have done that and then maybe I would have been here at this point or I could have kept doing this and then been here. And it's like you're constantly having to look at what other people are doing too. - And negotiate a bit with like your own artistry in a sense of like is this gonna be popular or is this gonna be, you know what I wanted to do? - Yeah, fundamentally, I mean, ultimately, I've landed on you gotta do what you wanna do. - Well, I was gonna say, it clearly has worked out for you after leaving your label. You've had such success. I mean, I even think particularly with the song Nastia. - Yes. - Like every single person in the world just like singing that song, it's so viral. Like tell me, first of all, it's not a shame. How does one match your free? - What does it look like? - Oh my goodness. I mean, the jury's still out on that one 'cause no one has matched it thus far. - Stop, no one. - No one has. I mean, from time to time, so people have put their name in the ring, they've tried. - They've tried. - But it hasn't worked. Okay, so your single. - Yeah, I'm saying. - How are you currently approaching dating? - Yeah, I mean, I'm not. - You're not dating? - I wish. - I kinda wish. - Okay, what do you mean you wish? - You're perfect, you're gorgeous, you're successful. - It takes a lot to carve out the time. I'm honestly like to be real. And also, I think you need to take the time to do the deep research of like finding these people because if you're just like, oh, someone's gonna cross my path. Based on the crossing path method, that hasn't like worked too great for me. - That hasn't worked. - And I've genuinely felt that if I had gotten into a serious relationship a bit earlier in my life that I had fears that I wouldn't have felt fulfilled in my career. And I kind of always felt like I needed to kind of achieve this certain thing in my career before I made those steps to like really pursue that seriously. - Do you think you'll ever be ready? Because I feel like, exactly. - Because when, when, when, when, when, when. - I feel like especially as women, we are so understandably like, oh my God, we have this moment and they're when you're having success, it's nervous. Like I get nervous to take your foot off the pedal and like pour a little into yourself and stop with work for a second. Because again, we're taught like there's only a couple of us that can make it in our very specific field. And so then you're sitting there and you're like, I don't have time for dating. - And everything is a time window. Whether it be like your career or dating or whatever, you're like, okay, well, how am I gonna, I think for me in terms of like wanting to make it a priority, this is maybe the first time that I've started to feel that way. - Okay. - In a seriously, probably ever. - And why, what do you think has been shifting for you? - I think I feel more assured in my career. Now, I feel like I've accomplished a lot of things for myself and that I've reached a lot of places where I feel okay, I've done it. I feel a lot better than I did even like two or three years ago in that regard. - Have you had relationships in the past where the person was either threatened by your career or it was also just like, why are you prioritizing so much of your career over the last time? - Yeah. I think it's been, I've had a situation where especially when, you know, both people are professionals. A lot of times it's hard to determine like, who's gonna make sacrifices? - That's hard. - That is difficult. And I don't think I was ever in a place where I was willing to make sacrifices. - Interesting. - I was just having this conversation with my therapist recently, actually, about like arriving at things and this feeling that we're always constantly looking forward to arriving. But then like, what does it feel like when you actually arrive? Like a lot of times there is no arrive. - It's not that great. - My concept doesn't even exist if you like really think about it. - I completely agree with you. I feel like I've had the same conversation with some of my friends of like everyone has these goals in their life where like, if I just could get this, then, then, then, then, and then, weirdly when you achieve it. Like, oh my God, I made it. Then you're at these award shows. Then your song goes to this and you do this and then, and then it's like when you look back like where your barometer was to where then we set it for ourselves. I think as women, we can get like, oh my God, like I said, there's only a small window, but then you start to look at and you're like, oh, this window's bigger than I ever saw it. - Yeah, it is big. Life is long, there's so many options. - Right, we freak ourselves out. I'm curious for you also like, no matter how much we work on ourselves, the pressures around relationships and timelines can have been especially as women. And you're like, entering your 30s, and everyone tells us entering our 30s, you're done. - Yeah, you're done. - We had never pulled better. - You see, I'm feeling really good right now. How do you manage the feelings around timelines and pressures and all of that? - Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, it's tough. I think for me, it's constantly focusing on wellness and my mental wellness and keeping that energy around me because having my work be something that I prioritize so much and being so busy and all those things, I think. Taking care of myself on like a spiritual level is really, really, really crucial again to like making sure that I can function really honestly. What does self care look like for you though because I love how you're like, I'm pouring into myself. What are we doing? You know, being outside, exercising, skincare, drinking my water, staying hydrated, you know, being happy, like just getting sleep, oh my gosh, making sure I get my rest, that like really helps. I also think something that you referenced earlier that I'm curious about when you were like, it's almost like I need to do a lot of like the research process. Yeah, the research. What do you mean by the research process? Because I feel like you kind of have to, I don't know, maybe this is wrong, but like you kind of have to put in an effort and I'm unclear about what that effort looks like because I don't really want to get like on the apps. So it's like, should I like take up golf? No. Like if you were like, you should join a tennis club, I'm like, should I maybe, maybe I should. Maybe you should. Maybe I should. Maybe this is the next time I see you're gonna be like, I joined the club, I met the guy, can you play golf for tennis? I mean like, we can play. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm athletic. Yes, you are. You can learn anything that you want. Yeah. Okay. So let's go through, you're like, I need to figure out if I'm going to meet someone in the wild. Yeah. I have, I have a little game we're going to play. Okay. Okay. In the No Broke Boys music video, go over some standards with the girls and I'm going to list some of these standards for your music video and you are going to tell me how you're feeling about them now. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Number one, not broke in all caps. Now besides money, is there any other meaning behind that or this is strictly financial? Um, I mean, yeah, sure, like spiritually broke, like mentally broke, like just not filling your cup in any way, just not great, but then like also money because like I've dated a broke, like a broke guy before, it's not, it's just not it. I'm sorry. So where you listen to mama at that point, girl, I'm not going to lie. There was a couple times I was taking cash out of ATM, getting it, no, you're like this is for dinner. I was like, oh, here you go. I was pissed too, pissed. Oh my God. Isn't that the worst thing? And I was like, I'm never doing this again. That's why I wrote a song about it. Don't do it again. No broke boys kept next time men money and for ever do not lend men money. Once you're there, a board mission, immediately, actually don't even do that because again, like I said, don't date broke men. Yeah. So yes, then we'll never put ourselves in that situation. Exactly. You did it for us. I did the research. Research honey. Okay. He has under one K followers explain I would prefer someone who's not like on social media that much. Oh, me too. Like I, I would appreciate if I went to a guy's page and I was like, hasn't posted since like 28 and he has like 100 followers. Yeah. And it's like his mom. I deal. Yes. And it's like a random picture of like a tree or like a golf course. Just grow down two posts and it's him in high school. You're like, yes. Perfect. The best treat you could ever, you've got because he's young. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's not as opposed. He's been 20 years since he has posted himself in high school. You clarification. Have you ever gotten burned by a guy on social media before? Of course. Who hasn't? Like what? Posting something you found out. I found out so much stuff via social media. Yeah. But that's the thing. Like they're not that smart. So it's really easy. It's really. It's too easy. Like what's something that what's something that you found out through social media? I mean that he was dating someone else that he was out with somebody else. All the, all the, all the gamut that someone else was in his house. I got started. Is it at the worst when you find that and you're like, like the tagged photo? Or is it the likes? Oh, like this is public. It's public. You're right though. The worst is when you're like, I'm so proud of myself if I can get like full inspector FBI on this. Yeah. And then sometimes you're like, we, why did you make it that easy? No, I didn't even have to go full. It's right there, dude. And do you usually confront these men when they do this? No. I mean, at that point, I'm usually like, okay, noted. But yeah, sure. If I need to. You need to. Yeah. If I was like in a relationship with them yet. Then yes. But otherwise I'm just like, no. Noted. Okay, fair. Um, okay. Not a DJ club promoter. Yes. Okay. How does DJ disco lines feel about this? I don't know. I haven't asked him directly, but I think he would disagree, but I've also done the research in that field and I just, it hasn't worked out for me. The dog show you're like, it was just something about the club promoter that just like, it didn't give long term. It didn't get, you know, safety and trust. You're laying in bed at 3 a.m. and you're not feeling, you're not feeling cozy. I'm not feeling protected. Okay. And you've also dated DJs before. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. And do you think there's something for like the girlies where it's like, oh, you get like the rush when you first time get to go in the DJ booth and you're feeling special. Yeah. And then. That's fun. But like, but then you realize how many other girls, oh, yeah, it's a profession. It's like they're a profession. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. Um, okay. Six five minimum. Talk to you. Okay. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I do like talk, guys. I agree. Does he have to be over six foot? I wouldn't say have to, but like, I agree. You would like it. I would like it. You would like a six, two to three, two to three. Six five. A naked. Sure. Yeah. Five. We have been throwing me on your shoulder. That's great. No short kings. I mean, I've also dated a short king. Oh, how'd that go? Um, at the time, I was like, it's fine. I remember my mom was like, I don't know. I was like, I was like, no, it's fine. I was like young though. I didn't know any better. Not the justification of dating this short king. Because like, it was my first boyfriend was the short king, you know? And then you realized. And then I was like, no, he was short and broke. You have to not be broke. And then maybe I'll give you a little bit more leniency, but you can't be short and broke. No, that's too much. That's too much. Is your mom put her foot down and be like, never again? Um, I wouldn't say she puts her foot down, but she, you know, she, she makes her opinion note. I love him. I'm like that. And the worst is when you don't listen to your mom in the beginning and you're like, you don't know me. You don't get me, mom. And they're like, uh-huh. And then it all crumbles to the ground and you're like, mom, and she's like, mm-hmm. You're like, in fact, she knows you better than, you know, yourself so worse, but it is the best. It is. So, next, good with his hands, how quickly do you know if there is sexual chemistry with a guy? Like, do you think that it can build? I think yes, but like, you know already off the bat if you're a track, I'm, okay, maybe for me, let me just speak for myself. I am not really sexually attracted to someone that I'm not like attracted to by my eyeballs. So if I don't like immediately already like see it for you, then I'm not going to get to that place. I understand. You're like, you need to physically be attracted and want to like go up to you and talk to you. Yeah, I have to think you're kind of, I have to think you're kind of hot. We're right. But I think it's like the intangible things, like, like, obviously like how like you're feeling in the moment. Like if you're feeling really confident and like yourself and not self conscious, I think that's like a big plus or like another one is like, if you like one time, I was like, I hooked up with this guy and like, I thought, I didn't like how he smelled. And he didn't smell bad. I just didn't like it. No, that's like a full fair, moan thing where you're like, yeah, I don't think it's now. It's like not by me. That is like a full thing. I've had that before too, where I'm like my, like my pH balance levels are not working with yours. It's not hitting right. It's not going to go. I do appreciate you saying that though, because I agree, I think like when you are going to start to see if there's chemistry, I do believe that the chemistry and the hookup and the sex can get better. But I love how you just said, like there are signs though that have nothing to do with like the actual hookup. Did you feel comfortable? Did you feel confident? Did you feel safe? Did you feel seen? You're like, oh, then maybe then we just need to like learn each other's bodies more. Right. Right. Right. But I think that's good to like not completely write them off unless it's like, you know, really bottom of the arrow. And you're like, all right. I never want to see you. again. Okay last but certainly not least emotionally available. Now what are some signs that you've experienced in the past where maybe someone was clearly not emotionally available but maybe you still pursued them because we all love to do that. You know when they extended situationships. Done in situationship. Do you find yourself in situationships often? Yeah. Okay let's talk about this today because situationships I would argue are more painful than real ending of like relationships that had titles and we met each other's family. It's more clear cut. Yes. Okay how are we ending up in situationships to not say what is happening. I mean I think it's easy when you're busy you've got a lot going on you're like let's just see you know let's see how this goes and that I think that's the thing it's like there's a lot of upfront chemistry and excitement and that purposefulness sometimes is what's missing and I think you start to notice pretty early on but it's easy to write off the signs because we're having fun we like each other the sex is good we you know we're busy anyways. Do you find yourself in the situationship usually the person because I know you've been so focused on your career being like you know what I just want this something casual like are you the one setting the boundary of casual. I definitely have yeah. And then have you ever gotten feelings. I've I've experienced a situation where it's gone back and forth. Oh I don't want anything serious. He has feelings. I want something serious. He doesn't want back and forth. The switch. The flip. We like that's literally the worst type of situation because that's the long term ones. You're you could be in that for you could be in that for years. No because it's like the way that it got started was you guys kind of agreeing it was going to be nothing too serious. Yeah. Then one gets feeling so one pulls back then you agreed on we can keep it casual then what and then you're a cat in the house but it's kind of a dick thing. It's super a dick thing. Watch out for those. Have you ever had a situation chip turn into a relationship. No but I've had a relationship turn into a situation. What? I've got the opposite direction. We've progressed. We've progressed. What you explain. I mean you never like hooked up with your ex and then like kept hooking up with your ex. Like that. That's how it happens. No I thought you literally like you're like or boyfriend and girlfriend did it and then we're like let's break. No there was like a break. A little break. Yeah. You literally are like but let's keep it casual now. Do that is the worst when you start hooking up with an ex again. Yeah. It's familiar. It feels easy. It feels like this can't. This is I know this. Yeah. But then you're stuck in a cycle. Highly inadvisable. You're like these are all the things to not use your sudden done but highly inadvisable. I get it though because it's like it's safe it's easy. Okay your song. I'd rather be alone. Talks about previously holding out hope that someone would change. What inspired you to write this song? Long-term situation. Oh you're like we just went through it. Yeah. And what did you want them to change? Yeah. I mean I think to me it's an array of things but I think with that song specifically I think I'm just talking about the avoidance specifically. I think there's it's hard when someone's you can't tap into them like even if you're close if you're physically in the same room with them or like you're touching them and they still seem far away and you can never get in. I think that's an impenetrable boundary like that hits because I'm just thinking about all of the people listening that you're like it's almost this like intangible thing that it's hard to describe they're like well what did he do and you're like I there's just like an avoidance or a distance that I can't quite. And can they change? That's the thing about like somebody who has that kind of quality and like distance from their emotions I think that kind of begs the question like are they even in touch with is that even something that they'll be able to access or like get to or is this something that will always just like be at a distance for them I think. Do that's really hard to answer because I think a lot of times we get into those situations where we're like we see glimpses and so I think that inevitably a lot of us go into relationships being like of course someone can grow and they can change and so when you see glimpses you hold on to those little baby glimpses where you have a little break through something. But if you look at something consistently and it's not changing that's when it's hard to be like you kind of have to be the one to walk away. Yeah that's what that's why this song I think is so hit so hard for me because the the issue that I speak about the song is that I can get so close to you but like you're still so far away or you give me a little but never enough and that's the thing with like somebody who is avoidant it's like it on the surface it might look like they give you XYZ they go through the motions but like you still can't crack that like deep inner core or like maybe you do from time to time but it's like and you don't feel fulfilled you don't feel fulfilled and I think that's a really painful realization to come to when you're like okay maybe it looks good on the outside but I'm not getting that like juicy inner core and I love that you're saying that because I think sometimes it's hard when you're in that situation as the person that is giving so much and you're not getting a lot back when I kind of said like you could see glimpses of it I think that we convince ourselves like okay maybe I'm I'm asking for too much or maybe I just need to be more patient or maybe they really are trying their best but I also think at the end of the day relationships it's like if there's not reciprocity and it's they could be a great person also by the way this doesn't make them a bad person yes but if you feel so unfulfilled at some point even if they check a lot of boxes yeah that pit in your stomach and that gut intuition feeling it's never gonna go away so you do sometimes have to be the one to rip off the bandaid yeah and I think that song also kind of talks about that because you those are almost the situations that you want to like hold on too long because you're like it's not that bad like it could be worse like it could be you know you could be doing this you could be doing that and so I think sometimes that's why that song kind of ended up with being like I would rather be alone because you realize that like your own piece of mine like your own happiness your own fulfillment is more important than like an almost that's what I wrote that down in the song you say I've learned that it's worse to look back and admit I lied to myself when I always knew better I was like yeah oh cuz then you're basically self abandoning totally in these moments yeah and it takes you a lot of times leaving the relationship to look back and be like oh my god what was I doing yeah which is so painful sometimes because hurting the relationship with yourself is sometimes more painful than when you are breaking up a relationship with someone else because you're like how did I get so far away from me I think that's the hardest hardest thing to grapple with and when someone hurts you and you feel like oh this was this was not this is on me because I knew better and I think the the line I say immediately after that is potential is just potential which is another thing that I think I've had to really learn is that potential is just potential I know and it's like crazy the mind tricks that we play on ourselves to convince ourselves like I said like but maybe it's because and you're like if you keep saying but maybe yeah and everyone tells you this but you can't I know when you're at your entrance you have any advice for your younger self of like how to maybe get out of situations sooner and it's not get to the point where you are lying to yourself and you're kind of going down this longer road yeah you didn't have to subject yourself to I mean I would give myself the advice that everyone gave me which is to just like be real and like assume that you know what you see in front of you is is the truth but I think again I wouldn't I can't I can't look back now and think that I would have ever done anything differently because like I said you have to it's like a canon effect like a canon event you can interfere like sometimes you just have to like let the cycle play out even if you do know better and even if you do have all the good advice in the world I saw that you had said in conversation about like how long it can actually take to heal from a breakup in the past you've said days try years when you look back at getting over a relationship and grieving a relationship what do you think for you specifically you found yourself mourning yeah post breakup mostly um I think the potential that I saw for myself which is another thing that I think you learn is like the person that I expected to become by being in this relationship and I think that a key a key is realizing that you can become that person without a relationship at all and you already are that person a lot of times but it sometimes feels like you can only access, like you're happy yourself, you're most outgoing self, you're most comfortable self, where are those things like through someone else seeing those things in you? - It's such a good point, and I agree, it's so hard to do it, but you're right, it's always right there. - Yeah. - And then we try to look and see like, well, maybe this relationship will give it to me, and it's like, no, no, no, no, you can give it to yourself. - 100%. For you, when you've had moments where you felt like you were healing post break up or situation chip, what has set you back, maybe, in the past? - I think life is very cyclical, and I think we go through a lot of just like cycles of feeling good and feeling bad and feeling confident and feeling less confident, and whether that be because of like something that happened that triggered it, or just like the seasons changed, and like it's getting colder, and now I like miss you, I think those things happen, and I think my career is very cyclical as well, like I go through these cycles of like writing an album, touring an album, promoting an album, writing an album, touring an album, promoting an album, so a lot of times, like I think when I'm like creating, that can really dredge up a lot of emotions in me, or like I go through, when I'm traveling and I'm alone a lot, like really lonely in hotel rooms a lot, then like maybe I'll be like, "I wish I had someone to talk to." - Right. - No, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like yeah, we get our weakest when we're alone and we feel lonely, and it's like, hold on, if you went back, I always used to say this to myself, like if I went back, would anything change? - Yeah. - No, so stop it, you're just lonely right now, but it doesn't mean you actually miss him, you miss having someone, and that's normal, and I think you can literally also be bored. - Yes. (gentle music) - I would be shocked to find someone who hasn't had like, obviously like a minor crush out of a relationship, which kind of brings me to my next question. Part of your promo for your song "Crash Out," it included a clip of you taking a sledgehammer to a car. - Yeah, that's really fun. - What inspired the car's smashing? - Well, at the end of the day, my aunt's called Popstar, and a lot of the themes surrounding it are like, classic like Popstar tropes, whether it be like performances or stunts. So I was like, we should do a stunt. Like we need like a gaggy moment, and it would be really funny if people like didn't know that it was a stunt, like, you know, like a true publicity stunt. - Yes, yes. - I don't want people to know that we're promoting my album, I just want to go out there and like, people who don't like follow me are seeing it online, and they're like, what the hell? And that's exactly what happened. So it worked, it was fun, it was great. - Well, like, what is to not be doing in whose car is that? And I love this, but also like, what did you do to her? - Were you thinking of anyone specific when you were. - Oh my gosh, I was just thinking about how heavy that sledgehammer was. - Girl, that shit was like 25, 30 pounds. - Where you're like, this sounded like a good idea. - I had no idea they were that heavy. - No, no, no, that's actually. - I was impressed. In the song, you talk about people sitting on the internet, hate it. What has your experience been with just the public's perception of you and the internet hate and how you deal with it? - I mean, I've also gone through like, ebbs and flows of being like the butt of the joke to being like an internet darling, to being like, butt of the joke again, to like being an internet dark. I think that's kind of like how there's always like a ping pongy between like the internet loves you. - Girl, what? - There was like a period of time people were calling me tennis shoe. I had some hard hands on deck, one time I took a picture on the red carpet like this and they called me all hands know neck for like two years. - Yeah, so terrible. - And how do you deal with those moments? - You know, good old fashioned just try to stay offline as much as you can. But I've also just gotten away thicker skin over the years. Like you just, you develop an ability to take criticism and to like let it roll off your back. The more you see it, the easier it gets. The only internet stuff that bothers me to this day is the stuff that I like kind of agree with, you know, like the stuff that taps your insecurities is when it's bad. - Yeah. - Like for me, it's like when people talk about like my performance at something, something something, 'cause I'm very, very critical of like, the things that I do, my art and stuff. And I'm typically like, yeah, it could have been better. And then someone says like, it could have been better. I'm like, damn, they're right, I could have been better. Like they saw it. So I think that those are the things on the internet that bother me, but like people just like joking around being trolls, like that doesn't really bother me. - Right, they're being an asshole about a bad photo on a carpet that we all have. You're like, please, please, leave me alone, okay, I get it. - Yeah. - There are also lyrics about rebellion and kind of rejecting societal expectations. You say I don't want to be a good girl. What do you think that, what do you mean in that context? - Yeah, I think in my life career, I think there's also like this framing around what people expect of me, what people expect of women, what people expect of, I guess, yeah, being a professional and I think you're constantly questioning whether those like standards are worth it, whether it's worth your sanity. Again, this kind of like ties back into like, fitting into boxes. Watering yourself down or like making the things that you really feel and really think smaller and sometimes especially as an artist, I think you just want to be able to express like the full capacity of yourself and your art and not have to have it be picked apart and analyzed and I think a lot of times you'd feel like you can't be 100% real nowadays, you know? - No, I really appreciate that because I agree. I think like especially as women, we deal with, we're trying to people please and we're trying to be palatable and we want people to see us as likable and sometimes you're then, if you start to get so fixated on being this like good girl or the liked girl, you're like, you're doing everything to appease everyone and you're just gonna lose yourself because unfortunately, you can't be liked by everyone. - Yeah, you literally can't. And the moment that you're liked by everyone, half the time you're like, well, I was kind of like, doing it 'cause I thought that's what they wanted and it's an impossible game that we'll play with ourselves that men just do not have to think about it to any degree compared to what we do. I also think the song, you kind of, it reflects this idea that you're at this, point your career in your life where you don't need validation and I can feel that from you. You're getting to that place where you're kind of like, so what? What do you think it took from that young girl, 14, in that girl group to the now where you are in your career, like what did it take for you to get to the point where you're like, maybe I don't need this external validation that's all inside. - I think it's, I've taken it all the way there to where I cared a lot about what people thought all the way to not caring at all and it's way better over here. Like, I think there's just so much freedom. But to get to that place, you need the experience, I think, of caring a lot because when I say I don't care at all, of course I care, that's the thing. It's like you always care about your art, about what you put out, about how people feel about you but you don't care to the point where it becomes detrimental to your process or how you feel about yourself or your own value or I think that was the biggest thing from the 14 year old to now is when I first started, I really kind of had this confidence and like knew I was gonna become like the biggest artist in the world and I think I went full circle from that to being like, oh, I'm actually not confident in my ideas, maybe like the things that I'm bringing to the table aren't that great because people aren't understanding them, maybe I have to change things, like maybe, I don't know this is confusing, to then realizing that like, oh, I can still be really confident and make all those things and be, you know, who I am at the end of the day. And yeah, it just takes a journey. - Well, that's why I'm so excited for you because your album, Pop Star, which by the time this comes out, releases this week. - Yay! - First of all, congratulations. 'Cause I do think it's kind of like an amalgamation of everything we just talked about, everything you just said. It's like all of the building blocks of who Tinashe is. Now we're here and you have this piece of work that's coming out, can you talk a little bit more about what inspired this album for you? - Yeah. Well, I wanted to put out a body of work that represented all of the things that make me me. And like we said earlier, I don't subscribe to like one particular sound, one particular genre. I've made records on this project that feel like dance records, like hip-hop records, like pop records, like R&B records. And I think they all, to me, fall under this umbrella of Pop Star. And I wanted to bring that question or like bring that conversation to the table of what does it mean to be a Pop Star? And to me, I've always thought of it as an umbrella term, something that, you know, kind of can encompass all the genres and isn't exclusive or, you know, I think a lot of times people have this idea of what Pop is. And maybe it's become more and more exclusive even over time. What they think the sound is or what it looks like. And there's kind of like a monolith. And I don't think that that should be the case. It's a great point also to have an album that has such a variety in genre and sound. Like, can you talk more about the process of making this? Yeah. How did you even start what was your thought process of how you were going to approach it? I mean, I wanted to have a real sense of play when I created this project, like, just feel really playful and free and go in there and make something that just was a fun, enjoyable process, and a lot of times that comes from challenging myself. It's making something that isn't easy or obvious and maybe adding elements that feel really contrasting. They feel in contrast to one another, so maybe I have a really deep, basic, heavy kind of song, and then I have like really floaty vocals over top or vice versa, maybe I'll have something that feels like dancing and like, remove the drums or like, taking playing with different elements and playing with my vocal performance and just like having fun. And from what we were talking about, like, you are someone that works so hard. You're such a perfectionist. You want to get to continuing to build in your career, like, how do you feel about this album in terms of like where it kind of places you at in your life right now? Yeah. It feels the most like I've arrived, I think. That's so far. I just feel really confident in this project. I feel really like I am just showing up in like my most myself and just being unapologetic and not keeping, I think I have a tendency to almost like downplay my own accomplishments or like my own place in the world and the industry and in culture. And I think I'm just owning that, I think with this project. Okay. Last question. Yeah. Now that you have built a career entirely on your own terms, what does success look like for you in the future? We have this album to know she's going to continue to thrive, but what does that look like for you? Yeah. I've reached the place where I've realized that being able to continue to make art in a comfortable way is like my main priority to be able to continue to tour and put on the shows that I want to put on and make the visuals that I make and make music without having to worry about anything else is really is the goal. So I think being able to just sustain that and being able to be like my full creative self is the dream, you know, literally I'm so happy for you because hearing how hard you work and how much you have put into your career, how much you have really tried to not allow other people's opinions and other people's influence to essentially impact the way that you approach your own life and your own vision for your talent. Yeah. I think it's so inspiring for women and anyone watching just because I think it's easy to hop on trains nowadays of like, this is working and this will be catchy and this will do that. Yeah. And to say true to your core is clear that you've done that and I'm so excited for the world to hear your new album. I'm so excited to continue to like follow your career. And I'm sending you all the good vibes and just congrats again like seriously, it was such a pleasure to get to talk to you. Oh pleasure was mine. Thank you for having me.