Timeshares

Oh, hey man, hey Hayden, do you think it's accurate to describe you as someone that struggles with technology? No, I think it's accurate to describe you as someone who gets extremely irritated by little things in life and does let them get that they get to you, don't they? Me not picking up my phone is pretty psychically damaging to you. Behind the scenes of this podcast, whenever I call you Hayden for the segment of the show, you rarely pick up on the first go and you can plan about the call not coming through or it appearing as a miss call and that is increasingly becoming frustrating to me that you don't now to operate technology. I think it might be because I'm playing Pokemon and somehow that messes with my phone. Now look, just briefly, hitting on today's topic, time shares, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on time shares, do we have those in New Zealand? Yeah, that's a smooth segue, I don't reckon we do as much. I have never been asked to go in on a time share, like I don't think that's a thing for us. We have a big batch culture so a lot of, particularly boomers before they destroyed our housing market and made it cripplingly unaffordable for their children. They bought a lot of beach side batches and with that still a big thing like there's often family batches and I don't think we do time shares as much. I know what you're talking about and it does sound like a particularly annoying thing to get involved with, we have this big booking system for a house. Yeah, I don't like a lot of American culture but that's got to be the worst thing. I'm David Farrier in New Zealand, I accidentally marooned in America and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now last week I found myself in the Delts, the water park capital of the United States. As part of that episode I called emailed all the major water parks in the Delts to see if I could come along and interview them. Some responded with open arms, wonderful, thank you. And some of them completely ignored me and then one water park said outright no way because it apparently made some cynical comments about time shares in an earlier flightless bird episode. Reading from the email, David, I think we're going to pass because of the way you guys were talking about time shares. Why was that water park so pissed? Well apparently it had some kind of tie in with the time share program so members of said time share program could use its water park facilities. The fact that expressed reservations about time shares meant they now had reservations about me and reservations about our show. The email ended with this, I don't want to give the impression that we're out to scam people because we aren't. Which look, quite possibly very true, but that's not what you write to a journalist out of nowhere when you want them to think you're not scamming people. What was I to do with this door slammed in my face? Well clearly I would have to attend or a crewman session by this particular time share associated with this particular resort. So get ready to descend into the hellscape of time shares and remember to never tell a journalist out of the blue that you're not out to scam people because it'll just make us really, really fucking curious because this is the time shares episode. Good morning Rob. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Good morning but I messaged you a clip from that phone call I did with Hayden this morning about how I get irritated very easily by little things. And I think it's quite perceptive of Hayden because I've been realizing recently I do get irritated really easily by little things. You think it's perceptive that he noticed how easily you're triggered? Yeah, I don't think it takes a psychologist to realize that about you. You know how sometimes when you live in your own brain you don't realize things that are really obvious until someone just points it out on a really clear way. Yeah. Recently finding this out about myself. I would say he was accurate. We had never said recently we were recorded where I sort of was having a temper tantrum. I can't remember what set me off but something put me in a really bad mood to the point we're afterwards we discuss whether we would have to record it or edit out bits where I got especially grumpy. Yeah. I just think it's a very funny thing. But also the thing that you were grumpy with but I thought we may have to consider was pretty much the whole concept of the show. So that's why you were pretty much making the argument that the show we're making does not make sense. Yeah. I didn't realize. There's no point. It's the argument I was making at the time when I was zeroing in on a very specific point but that is essentially the argument that I was making. I also think it ties in with this time she episode because sort of the meat of this time share sandwich is me going to a time share sales meeting which has sort of been locked in for two hours. And that triggered all of my worst parts of my personality where I realize I hate being told what to do. I hate being like having to turn up at a certain time and everything in me was pushing back. And that just reminded me of what Hayden was talking about as well. Yeah. You don't want to share your time with these people. Don't share my fucking time. I have a few things. I have a few things. Yes. Before we get in. Family batches? Yes. What is that? So I don't know what you would call a batch in America. It's like a family holiday home. What would you call? I mean, a vacation home. A vacation home. Okay. So we call them batches in New Zealand and just because of the nature of New Zealand having so many beaches. So as you miss pronouncing beaches and seeing batches. Yes. It's like we can't say it properly. Yeah, it's B-A-C-H, a batch. And so often you will find a batch generally will be associated with an ocean side thing because New Zealand is small. We have so much ocean. There's a lot of little houses. So I don't know if you'd call like a batch in the middle of the country, a batch, it might be something else. Are these like just their vacation homes or multiple people buying them together and then sharing it? But generally they'll be owned by a boomer parent so they bought them up when land was cheap and when these places were cheap. They're generally a bit more low-key than a lot of sort of fancy homes, but those families will then share the batch with cousins and other family members. Okay. But not on some kind of insane point system or buy it more just like, hey, we're not staying there this week. Do you want to stay? Yeah, stay. Does lead me to the question of are vacation homes not becoming a thing in America even anymore? Now that you've got Airbnb and Burbo and these different places. Because that's that that was always the dream. Like you make enough money. You've got your house and then you make you the next goal post which a football, football term. Yeah, America is vacation house. You go buy a house on a lake that you can go to a couple times a year Lake Tahoe. Yes. Lake Tahoe was like up in Wisconsin. You run Canada Lake Ontario. Perhaps Lake Arrowhead, Big Bear Lake, Lake Souville Lake, Lake Alice, I probably not silver like I would throw on the lake, but a house that you can go to and it's nicer than Canada Hotel. Yeah, I wonder if that dream has kind of faded with cost of living and mixing with the fact that everyone just gets an Airbnb or some other service like that. Well, now I feel like a lot of places where people would be buying vacation homes, people have bought up Airbnb's and you can now go rent for a weekend. And for what if you're up there four times a year, it's probably cheaper to rent. Yeah. Those four times than pay an extra mortgage for the entire year. Hearing you talk right now kind of makes me feel like I'm back in that time shit. That's what I'm doing. I'm doing the opposite. No, you are doing the opposite cell, but it's like it's all about comparisons. It's like you're doing this, but if you're doing this, you'd say that. And this would be the experience, I'm getting flashbacks to the whole thing. Okay. Then other thing when they reached out about our previous episode, where we talked about time shares. Yes. Do you think that episode made it to the time share community as a whole or did she look into our podcast after you reached out? I like to think it made it to the community as a whole because this wasn't, this was literally a resort that dealt with the time share. Sorry. Yeah. A water park that had times with the time share, I've never dealt with them before for flight this bird. Because it's, and so I reckon they Googled flight this bird on some like time share forum. And it popped up as like a red flag of podcasts that had been negative about time shares. Well, but it's not that we had mentioned it briefly on an episode. It was not a topic that someone reaches out, hey, can you talk to this podcast? No, it was. I wouldn't go to the episode list and be able to see, oh, they did it. It was a time share episode and talked about it. No, completely. You're right. It was like a line that would have been three quarters of the way into an episode, which then led me down the thought process of is this just a really good publicist that is so incredibly across transcripts because I deal with publicists all the time. - Yeah. - On podcasts. - Yeah. - And there's no way that they're picking up like a line out of an episode where we should talk a movie. - That is so weird 'cause it is so specific. It's not like we didn't episode time she is. - No. - And they click that. Oh, time she is awful, they're a scam. - Correct. - And we're not a big enough show that it-- - No, that's so weird. - That's so, that's my process of how she knew. - I think when this episode, I'm gonna email them this episode and say, "Hey, this is an episode we did." And just FYI, I'm just sort of curious, how did you come to know that we had talked for about 10 seconds on a previous episode about time she is? - Yeah. - And we weren't that disparaging. I think it was some more sort of a suspicion, questioning what they were. You actively wanting me to do an episode at some point about time she is 'cause your parents have always used them. - It's really fucking weird. - Well, okay, so then this whole episode too, you were going to the Dels. - Yes. - And Johnson Dels. - Have you, what a place. - Got bear meat in the Dels. - Yeah. - Went down two or three times. - You were trying to get out of this. - This goes fast. - You really did not want to do this. This goes back to you not this being like your hell of being trapped somewhere. - Yeah, no, I got a bit agitated because you had mentioned it as an idea because the Dels is so time she is centric. It's this holiday part of America. - And originally you had sort of, you had pitched the idea of doing induction session or like a sales pitch, which is about two hours long. - Yeah, 'cause I grew up going to time shares and when I became 18 or, I think it was probably around that. - Cubity. - No, when I was an adult, if we would use the time share, my dad would be like, "Oh, you can get like $150 visa gift card." - And that's like, you pass that off to me. - That's what you told me. That was what you did in front of me. And of course, I'm 18 and I'm like, sure, I'll go sit through this. I also, I'm 18. I'm not gonna buy a time share. - No, well, you don't think you are walking in but you never know. - So I have done. - Oh, so you've done what I didn't want of these. - I did. - You knew how, how replicate would you be. - Yeah, so you did what your dad did and dangled those vouchers in front of me 'cause it was $150 worth of vouchers. - And I knew the experience of it. One, we could look back on and since it was for the podcast. - Yeah. - Would be amusing. - Yeah. - It's one of those things like, as it's happening, you know, it's a disaster but you find comfort and, well, this will at least be fun to talk about. - Yeah, and I think my thought process was enthusiasm up until the day of. And then on that day, I was like, I don't want, I just didn't want to do it. Everything in me, it was part of that thing. I don't want to be told what to do. I don't want to have two hours of my day taken away by this thing. Anyway, you encouraged gently. - I think you probably would not have done it. I think this episode would not exist. - Yeah, and this is your producer and friend had pushed me 'cause no, I was like, no. But then you came back to it and you're probably boring techniques to your dad used on you. - No. - Of I just gently, like just give this a go. And look, I am, I both hate and love that I did it because it was truly one of the most American, apart from being in the dels itself, this is one of the most American experiences of head. It was wild. - Which I think is the perfect outcome. - It's the perfect outcome. - Before we go into the dark. - Yes. - Maybe we talk about time shares a little bit. - Yeah, what is, no, 'cause believe me, I don't get into any facts in the dark. It's just anger. - Okay, so growing up as a kid, my parents had a time share. I didn't understand much from like a financial standpoint. I think all I really get now was they bought into a time share and then that gets them points to which they can redeem at different locations. - So what did it look like as a kid? Were you every holiday? It was a different part of America. - Yes, they, my dad had like a book that had all these lists of all of these hotels and time shares in which we could stay at if it had like the right code. And I think they're eventually transitioned to some database where it was, we wanna go to this part of the country where can we stay using time share points? - Right. - And we were a family with four kids. So six of us traveling. Hotels really weren't affordable. - You know that practical. - Yeah. - Let me show you that pile into what we need. - We need three rooms for that many people unless we're sleeping three kids in a bed. - And these were the days before A, B and B. - Yes, it's where B and B's in exist. So these time shares were more, they're more like little condos. They'd have a kitchen and two or three bedrooms with a living room, not always the nicest, but spacious. - Yeah, they had the room. - And they're affordable. - Yeah, I mean, I very vividly remember like opening the door, get a little kitchen on your right and then there's a living room, coffee table, pull out couch, TV, and then little bedrooms off. - Is it almost, how do you compare time, I know you're talking about condos with the time share, but how does it compare an American culture with motels? 'Cause I know in New Zealand as a kid with sometimes staying motels and I feel like that sometimes have more of a setup for kids, like a couple of single beds in a room. And then another room like, but I feel like Americans, I don't know, do people use motels as much here or is that more like? - Do motels I think is a smaller, it's like a hotel. - Yeah, that's just a cheaper version of that. - Yeah, it's a slightly more low key, it's a more low key hotel. - Which, these, the time shares, they were almost like campground type things, where it wasn't like row of motels like you would imagine. It was a three story building, a building A, B, C, D, and there's eight units in each. - Right, so they all kind of had a feeling of time share when you walked in. - Yeah, sort of all had a similar thing. - Yeah, I'm trying, yeah, to me it's so familiar that I can't really describe it. - Well, I, I mean, as part of the dock, I go on a tour, they take you on a tour of a condo. - Well, I think they've evolved a little bit too and they've gotten, because like I said in our Del's episode, I don't think any of the time shares that we had when we were going back then were connected to water parks. - Right. - So as a different vibe, I think they have evolved, 'cause I also remember going to one in San Francisco, so that was the other thing is most of the time shares were not in major cities. - Even to like when we moved out to LA from Chicago, my parents would come to visit and they were like, okay, the closest time share we can get for the week is in India, California, which is two hours from LA. - It comes from LA, direction, yeah. - And that's where they stayed. - Yeah, right. - When they came to visit us. - So you'd sit off sort of a road trip would be an element of it as well, like you're driving off something? - Yeah, I mean, that was the nature of our vacations when I was a kid because flying with four kids was not an option, it was expensive. It was all six of us pile into the minivan and drive. - It's really cute. It feels like a really formative kind of an experience of this little like family onto a life. - It is odd though, because all of the time shares kind of blend into one. I don't feel like I got to see these different places in the way that I do getting an Airbnb in Seattle and Nashville. - What were you doing in these places? You had this place to occupy. - Yeah. - They all kind of bleed and it's all kind of the same sort of feeling with your little kitchen air and you know, rooms. What were you doing in those cities? Was it like off to the movie theater? - They all had a communal pool, okay. That we would spend time in the pool a lot. The one in Nashville, because my parents were in Winchester, the one in Nashville was right behind Opryland. - Behind what? - The Opryland hotel and that area, it was like directly behind it. So the Nashville one was actually somewhat close to a city. But mostly we were just in middle of nowhere towns. So yeah, it was maybe we go see a movie. - Yeah. - Mostly hang out at the pool there. Hike, my dad was really big into hiking. - Love hiking and swimming. - Check out the local Civil War monuments. - Yeah, battlegrounds that were nearby in the mystery. - Yes, a lot of history. - But generally it's a warm feeling you have towards this life. It's like your family's on the road going to somewhere a bit different. - Yeah. - Okay, so I don't know. - Yeah. - Okay, no. - So I did, but I did ask my mom what the selling point, 'cause this, I wanted to know why, - Why? - Why they got a time share. - Why mom? - Yeah. - And her response was it forced them to take vacations because they want to waste the money. - You used the money, yes. Well, my dad was super frugal. - He's tight. - We know this. - So eating all the fries at Chili's. - I think signing up for this was like signing up for a subscription. And he's gonna get his fucking money. value out of it. - Yes. - Yeah, like a true American. - So he's paying for these maintenance fees, is what she called it, that you had to pay for whether you use them or not. So if they're paying those fees, it was her guarantee that they would get to take a vacation a few times a year. With four kids, it was an nicer state of condo or a townhouse instead of a hotel, full kitchens plus things to do at the resort. - A pool. - A pool. - Yeah, yeah. - Like maybe mini golf. (laughing) - There was a lot of mini golf. - There's a lot of mini golf is fun. - But when there's four little kids, like that's all you need on vacation, a little like go-cart track, maybe. - Oh, exciting. - Yeah, I get it. - And then my dad figured out it was cheaper doing time shares, except for a few places, they were always nice. - Okay. - Some of them I think we would show up and they were dumps. - And then you're stuck to it. - You know what I mean? - You can occasionally get a failure in the magazine. - But like dumps to my mom was there was an ant problem. I think we talked to her about that and that was her like biggest gripe was like, we showed up and there were ants everywhere. - I talked to him on the dock and we touched on the ant problem. - It's stuck. It's like a formative memory. - And it reminds ants. - Which to me if I got like an Airbnb and there's ants, I don't, that's just the thing. - It's just gonna happen. - Yeah, you're gonna have ants. - What do you mean ants and ounces? - Yeah, ants on that bed. - Now just so, I don't get accused of not having any meat in this documentary sandwich a few facts about time shares. - Yeah, he got some. - Okay, so the word time share was coined in the UK in the '60s. So not originally an American thing. It expanded on a vacation system became popular after World War II. Vacation home sharing, also known as holiday home sharing, involved four European families would purchase a vacation cottage jointly and they would have exclusive use for one of the four seasons. So started in the UK. The first time share in the US was in 1974 by Caribbean International Corporation, CIC, based in Florida. So of course, Florida was the origin of time shares in the US. - In theory, like you're gonna buy a vacation house. - Uh-huh, come back in. - And you want to buy one of your own time? You're not gonna be able to buy your own time. It would be better get four friends in on this that are also looking to buy a vacation house. Buy four vacation houses around the country for the same price as you just owning the one. - Brilliant, nearby. - Four instead of one. - And then this was just a corporation that came in and decided, hey, let's turn that concept into a much more elaborate business model. - Well, as this quote from another client came across, the time share concept in the US caught the eye of many entrepreneurs due to the enormous profits that could be made by selling the same room 52 times to 52 different owners. And so when you balloon it out, it starts getting crazy. The point system is also something that is very American that came in '91 thanks to the Disney Vacation Club. Of course, Disney is in on the time she came as well. - Yeah, I think that was like the cream of the crop of time shares. Right, that was all a lot. - We are not able to do that. - That's your parents dream of being part of that. - Yeah. - And I think we'll get into talking about that big debate around are they scams out for the doc? 'Cause I kind of want to see what you make of my experience. And I'm curious of my experience undercover is exactly the same as yours was like, what, 20 years ago or whatever? - Natalie and I did it in 2010. - Okay, I'm just curious of my experiences. Exactly the same or just a close variant. Okay. (upbeat music) - It was peak afternoon heat when I walked into the air-conditioned lobby of a resort. I'm not going to name. Just to keep the risk of being sued to a minimum. It was the resort that had an association with the water park that had told me to get lost. So of course it became my target. That line from that email was still buzzing around in my brain. I don't want to give the impression that we're out to scam people because we aren't. That's what I was thinking as I approached a booth at the center of the lobby, a booth selling time shares. I was greeted by a kind looking woman in her 60s. She instantly put me at ease as she took me through the rules. The presentation would take 120 minutes. I had to be employed in working. If I was divorced, it had to be finalized. I had to have a credit card. I had to not be drunk. I agreed. She then excitedly handed over my gifts. About $150 worth of vouchers I could use at the resort. By now, we've been talking for about 15 minutes and I've slipped into a bit of a days. The salesperson was now telling me that for just $50 I could also secure a stay at an amazing resort hotel sometime this year. And somehow, maybe not wanting to offend her, I handed over my credit card. $50 down and I hadn't even started. I set off for the presentation, free floors up. I signed in at the front desk and was sent to a buzzing lobby area where every interested time share buyer was hooked up with their own salesperson. Now, I should mention that all the audio in this episode was recorded covertly. How else was I to get an honest experience without doing it this way? I should also step in and say that Wisconsin is a one-party consent state. So if you're recording a conversation and one person in that conversation can sense to being recorded, you're legally allowed to record. In this case, I consented so it's fine for me to record my time share experience and share it with you, the listener. I couldn't have done this in LA where both parties need to consent. Anyway, I was matched with a salesperson whose main job seemed to be to become my best friend and to tell me how great vacations were. As soon as I turned 18, I went by myself to Mexico. - Wow. - Now, yes. - Let's go. - Now, I flew into Mexico City. However, I knew that I wanted to be there to see the different cultures, see how they lived versus how we lived, things like that because I'm big into different cultures. This conversation eventually morphed into a quiz about my holiday habits. - What's your average vacation look like? Do you typically-- - I don't take vacations, I only work. When I arrive at vacation, it's for work. So I'll be recording something or filming something or doing some sort of something. - Little did you know, I was technically working right now. We were both working. We both had a job to do. And after about 20 minutes of endless chat about vacations, we all got herded into a room for a presentation. (upbeat music) - My name is Steve, I'll be your host for the next 15 minutes or so. Who in here just has, just real quick, head nods, show of hands, whatever. Are you gonna take another trip after this one? - Yes. - Okay, cool. So let me tell you what this is all about. - So to me, this bit felt a bit like a mini mega-church presentation. It was all warmth and hype and audience participation. - If I can get you guys more vacations for less money and nicer accommodations, does that sound like a benefit? - We went around the room introducing ourselves. There was a couple from Orlando, a mum from Chicago, and another mother and daughter from Jamaica. - And then right here, I heard this gentleman's from New Zealand and then looks close to where I grew up and I lost angel, so that's pretty cool. - Yeah, California. - Yeah, very cool. This is your first time here? - It is. - I hated all of this. New Zealanders are a shy people and we hate, we hate forced participation. This was the first moment I felt my blood begin to boil a little. The music didn't help. - Vacation has the power to change your life. It's like a reset button, your time to unlock and recharge. It's new directions, deeper connections, and fresh perspectives. - By now, my cynicism of time shares had risen from 60% to at least 82%. But the people around me, they seem to be loving it. Smiles, chatter, they were impressed at what times she has cut off of them. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Helix. Helix had been a sponsor of this podcast right for the beginning and I'm so glad they are because I got a wonderful midnight Lux mattress delivered directly to my door and it changed how I sleep. I have annoying, ongoing back pain 'cause I'm a tall, lanky man. Yeah, my lower back sucks, but sleeping on a Helix mattress has really helped. And we spend a lot of time sleeping. So what mattress you have is really important. And if you've been sleeping on a mattress, you're not happy with, then I would quietly suggest that Helix could be the solution that you're after. 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So 36 hundred resorts, 110 different countries, there's almost no way that we can't get you to. And then it was just lots of talk about points, points, points, points. This is a quick example of 300,000 points. You can buy less than this. You can buy more than this. This is just what they chose to display. So this family used their points to go two nights in Merrill Beach, four nights in Orlando, a whole weekend Hawaii, and then finished up the year in Las Vegas. He drowned on and on. It was only 50 minutes, but it felt like much longer. Thanks a lot for coming in to hang out with us, nice to meet everybody, and I'll turn you over to your vises after this is done. We all went back into the lobby. I escaped to the toilet to pee, but really I just wanted some alone time. This is the worst thing I've ever done, I'm going to kill you Rob. Then it's back into the fray where I try to fain some real interest. I'm curious about how available places are when you book. This is our Bona Cree location, which is Disney. Obviously it's the middle of summer, right? I can check you in to Bona Cree location August 2, so availability I'd say is very, very open. By this point time has taken on a truly hazy quality. I look at my phone, it's been about an hour, but what have we even really talked about? I feel like I'm trapped on a really, really bad date, and I'm shocked when I hear this whole thing may take longer than those two hours. I wonder, can I leave? What happens if I leave? I bring up my question about leaving, and her supervisor is brought over. What if people have that presentation, and they're like, it's not for me, I'm leaving. What's the deal? Are you chasing me? So that's just the allotment of time that we need to make it through our vossess. Okay. So like, she's basically, when she learned how to do all of this, she's got certain time friends that everything takes. Okay. Right? So, two hours isn't long enough for her to satisfy the entire toilet. Right. So, leave early, the gifts get revoked. My vouchers get voided. If you're here for 30 minutes, and then you're just like screw this up, I'm ready to go. No, basically, pull back the gifts from you. I decide to come clean, and tell them I'm very cynical about all of this. And so here, I'm on high alert, because I'm at a lot of, am I going to walk away with? I got you. Just letting you know. I don't know. Yeah. I appreciate you being transparent. Totally. Absolutely. You sharing that with me lets me know that I need to be very, very transparent with you. At this point, another salesperson enters the scene. And I can see why timeshare salespeople are often compared to use car salespeople. Those at timeshare sessions like this often complain about the onslaught of different sales people. One hit after the other, slowly wearing you down. And as another salesperson joins my table, I realize that's happening to me right now. Even though they know I'm not really even into this. My thought process is if I can just attack this 5,000 and save you money here, you can use 50% off on all this extra stuff just by being in the program, but I want this to be your payoff. Because think about it. 5 grand a year. If I just look at that over 10 years, that's 50,000. That would probably buy that 300,000 point factory at the discount. It's more points, it goes on and on, and at some point, when time has become ungrippable, I'm taken on a tour of a model condo in the hotel, then it's more salespeople trying to convince me. So, 345 times a 500 is how you get this 172,000, right? It would be, no I'm not asking, if you did pay $172,000, you'd be guaranteed that for the whole, for every year, right? I feel like I'm in a battle. I can't remember everyone's name, but they keep coming at me from different angles in front to the left, to the right, behind. And here comes the big time she a moment. The arrival of the so-called 'turn over man'. The man, and often is a man, sent in to severely drop the price, and press me, and secure my down payment. And he's joking about bribing. But is he? I told you I'm going to bribe you, David. You did. Here's the bribe. This is 30 days a year, okay? 300,000 points. She showed you 500, 300,000 points. This one, we have 149,000, so if you wanted to write me a check for 30 days of vacation every year for the rest of your life, 45 grand, okay? I'm not asking you for 45 grand, the way we do it, we do an upfront deposit of 20%, okay? We finance the remainder on a 10-year term that loan shark interest rates, how do we feel about this, David? Look, I'm going to be honest, I'm not going to do it, but I can see the appeal, I'm not going to do anything today. I'm sorry to be a loss for you with all your time you've put in, but you've educated me, I'm going to tell some people about it, that we're very curious about what I was doing. You were both great salespeople, no knocking, I've always felt bad, I've always felt guilty, but it's just not for me at this particular time. Okay. Could you expand on that a little bit, why do you feel that way? I'm bad with commitment to things, being locked in as bad. The United States is a pretty scary place at the moment with visas and whatnot. He seems to be accepting that he's not getting a sale. My nightmare is almost over. I'm not going to force you to do anything you don't want to do, right? Okay. You're not going to tape me out the back and close me to sign up. Absolutely not, no sir. Okay. No sir, not at all. But then holy shit balls, there's another attempt at getting a downpayment off me. I know. I will however show you one more option, okay? That one was for 30 days, I know we're not quite doing 30 days right now. This is our 15-day package of 154,000 points. Okay. Drift off, is he drones on? Almost convincing, but I'm going to pass. It wasn't almost convincing because he said no too quickly. Thank you, David. I appreciate you being nice. So we'll send someone over here real quick, they've got to do an exit survey with you. Turns out I'm not out yet. Before I can exit, I have to take an exit survey. I haven't done one of these since I quit a job once, about 15 years ago. What is this? Why am I waiting around to take an exit survey? On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest, how close are you to becoming an owner with us today? 10 would be almost bought at 1 would be like a no way. I'd be a no way. No, no way. Then what's that jet? Main reason you're not becoming an owner of this? I don't like being tied to an exit. So the commitment? The commitment? Good God, it goes on and on. Yes, the commitment. The commitment from Ovia. Absolutely. Is that before about the product itself or is it more about the cost of it? This is how. I sign another document saying I don't want any of this shit. I read the fine print, worried it's a scam. Why do I have to sign to leave it thing? It's so weird. Then more questions. Ah. Does it feel like it's restrictive or what is it? What's the piece of it that's like the-- I'm cynical. I think it's part of it as being from New Zealand. OK. And just the whole process today of the questions and the lock-in just feels-- something feels off to me. It's a bit like when I visited the church of Scientology, and I got taken on a two-hour tour. It feels very similar. Telling her I feel like I'm stuck in a Scientology cult seems to finally break the curse. I am released. I stumble into the lobby. I stumble outside into the sun. I settle back into my body again. I do some deep breathing exercises. Still in a days, all I want to do is use those stupid vouchers I got to get a drink at the bar. But there's still someone I have to see first. See, it turns out Rob's mum is staying nearby. And she's what I'd call a time-share freak. She's drunk the call aid, and she's loved every moment. I just had-- I feel like I had two hours in hell. I was trapped. I was sitting in presentations. I was being talked at relentlessly by people that were smiling a lot. I've never experienced being-- I remember almost kind of felt like at times I was being swayed. When you say no, then they have somebody else come in and talk to you. These people swooping on you from all angles. It is a cult. It is a bit of a cult. Sort of. Cult like we say, so we don't get sued. It's not really a cult, but I mean, and we've had great vacations. And we wouldn't have had 'em if we didn't have time-share. Even now, meeting with her in the lobby of a hotel, I realize she's here thanks to her time-share points. I mean, even when I signed up, somehow they tricked me into giving them $50 for some deal to get some room somewhere. So I've already paid them $50 when I came along. So I came to the front counter, and I said, I want to do the lecture. And they said, well, we can give you all these free things. We'll give you a pass for the water park. We'll give you $200 in vouchers for the resort. And then somewhere in there. In that speech, she said, "And a special deal, if you pass 50 dollars now, you can stay for one night, this year, in one of our many places, do you want to do it?" And I was so sort of bamboozled by all the other free things, I ended up handing over my fucking credit card, and I paid them. Oh, $50? See, they even got you. I just lost $50. God knows how much Rob's mom had sunk in. Did you get into the time share game? Um, in 1984, and we've kept getting more points and more points and more points. How have you found its work over those years, has it been good or bad for you? It's been good for us because we probably wouldn't go on vacation if we hadn't had time shares because it's a hassle to try to figure out, especially as the kids get older, and to go. So, what do you like about it? Is the idea that it's easier to get places, the quality of places is better? Like, what is it? The quality of places. And we very rarely ever go to where we own, we trade all the time, to go. I understand your son, Rob, he's not a fan of time shares. It's not, at all. Do you know why that is? No, I really don't. I know that it's really hard to get out of him. I know that, and we ended up buying a lot, and there was one time that they talked us into buying this presidential time share. What is the presidential, it sounds so fancy? I have like a million points, and we still have a million points, but then you can, well, here they talked us into buying, and they said that we could rent our points. Yeah. I don't know if they told you about that. Tell me so much. That's not true. It's not true, and it'll pay for your maintenance fees. I was surprised that she admitted to some bad experiences, like this presidential debacle, a million points too many, at least she's not fully brainwashed. I mean, we've had some time shares, hell, experiences. What's like a bad time share experience, you've had a good one? What does a bad time share experience look like? There are ants all over the place and roaches. Also, literally, the places you go to are terrible. I should also mention that Rob's son Calvin has also been here quietly this whole time, quiet until now. Calvin, you have something to say? When I went to surfing camp, at night time I was really hard to sleep, because also there is ants in the walls, and then there was a frog on you, the sugar ants, and when I wake up, there's a couple of ants on you, and runtime, there's an ant in my mouth. That seemed like a good time as any to wrap up my interview. I make my way to the bar, almost stumbling, and spend all my vouchers on booze. They don't go very far. A few creamy peanut colladas, and a spicy margarita, was it worth it? Absolutely not, never again. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Shopify. Now, if you're anything like me, and the way your brain works, and you are really good at putting things off, then Shopify could be the thing that you really need to get your business off and started. If you've been sitting on some kind of business idea, Shopify basically makes it easy to make it happen, because everything you need to start selling is included and ready right from day. All Shopify storefronts are integrated with checkout. For free, you pay no additional fee for the service and it makes your life plus allows your customers much, much easier. Also shop pay, it's a one-click checkout. 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That Shopify.com/Bird. Oh my time shares. Brought it back. All as we were listening to that back, I felt the anger flaring up in me and the frustration and the stuckness of it all. It made me realize how much I like listening to while you're angry, which I mean is a perfect segment from Hayden to start this episode. It kind of was. The fact that Hayden touched on that is for this particular episode is kind of insane. It makes it so amusing. It makes me want most of our episodes to just be sending you to places that you're tortured mentally. When I ended up finally learning that bathroom to have a piss, I was so fucked off of you. I was just like, I do not want to be here. And also at that point, I realized there was so much more to go. And at the point also where she revealed to me, my salesperson said it's going to be longer than two hours, I just started to think like, what is the mechanics of it? Like when can you leave, what does that look like? It's a sunk cost fallacy as well of how long you need to be there till it's not worth leaving. And I felt kind of an element of me felt guilty for, I was going in there with no intent to buy anything. Well, they've got $50, so I don't feel guilty at all. But I felt an element of guilt because this woman that was selling to me, she was so, you know, she was really trying. And I'm like, from the get-go, I had the knowledge that she was never going to sell to me. But again, maybe she fucking could have, because I spent $50 in the first 10 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do you, how do you do with salespeople normally? Let's take out of the time share experience. Someone comes up to you and tries to sell you something. Since I've lived in America, I've gotten a lot better at saying no, because there are so many people trying to sell you things. But traditionally, I fall into a thing of finding it very hard to tell another human to piss off even when they don't have my best interests in mind. I am the same way. Yeah. It's a curse. It's a curse. I'm very glad the like day of the days of door to door salesmen are mostly long gone. You see, this is interesting because when I was back in New Zealand, when I was saying Roosevelt's flat, we had two salespeople knock on the door, and I'm like, are they coming back? I forgot this was a thing. I've had, I've signed up for some sort of insect spray once a month at our house because someone turned up. Guy turned up. It was clearly sales tactics where he was like, I'm just next door. One of your neighbors signed up and we can offer you like a discount since you're on the same street and we can kind of bundle you together. So casual. And I was mostly just like, I want to, I don't know why I answered the door because I did not know this person was a mistake. Yeah. I want you to leave. Yeah. Can I pay you some money to leave? Kind of. Yes. I can't. It's the fastest way. Like please go. I don't want to do this. Yeah. It's, it's really tough. If I'm not easy to turn away, people selling religion, so if there's a religious person turns up selling their religion, I have no problem sort of saying no thanks. Yeah. But for some reason, people are trying to sell me a product. I kind of feel sorry for the fact they have to sell the product in a way. I think that's in the mix too for me. Yeah. Cause like, we've got this weird guilt in us. I don't mind the like petition thing either of like, no, sorry, I don't, I don't want to give my information normally to a stranger on the street. Totally. So we're in the same boat there. This, this though, when I made that comparison to Scientology, I mean, because it is a very similar tone where you walk into a building and you are like their number one friend. Their eyes are locked on you. They're desperately trying to reach your level of how they can draw you in. And if I'd exactly the same in Scientology, if I'd exactly the same, them trying to sell me a time share. Well, that, that was what I wanted to get to because I have that same, that same, I, I am the same way with salespeople. But when I did my time share meeting 16 years ago, I had no problem saying no. I was like, there is a way I'm doing this. Yeah. And no going into this probably because also it's such a big amount of money. It's not buying a $10 a month phone thing. No. It's getting over what? $45,000. Oh, I don't have this money to do this. And something I should state that I don't think I did in the. If you don't know this already, the whole thing with the time she has sale is you have to do it on the day. So that's a huge pressure they hold. There's this whole thing. When that person comes in to say, "Okay, I'm taking 50% off." The big part of that is you can only do it now. You can't come in tomorrow. You can't do it the next day. It's that day or nothing. And that is how they get a lot of people. Yeah. Well, and it is, here's this lump sum. You're gonna. It's like buying a house. You're gonna put down a percentage of it and then you're gonna finance the rest of it and it's monthly payments. Yeah. For this. But the aggressiveness of the sales technique, I think, turned me off so much that it made me okay with saying no. Yeah, almost you saw how on the nose it was and so part of you was like, "No, go away." And you could tell there was tricks and strategy and deceit happening. Yeah. And that annoyed me versus just, "Do you want this or do you not? Here's the price." Am I right and thinking, "Obviously, there are people that don't have that response or are people that go in there?" Or they're convinced, yeah. And they're convinced. Because they almost, the more they spoke, it convinced me less. Whereas some people go in there and the way that their brains are wired and what they're respond to, they don't have their reaction and they think, "Oh, half price off. You really care about me getting a good deal. This sounds great." I would suspect there's almost two camps. One are people that are manipulated and convinced against their best interest potentially, that agreed to do it. And then there are people like my dad, who maybe he's a little bit that category, but then think, "Oh, I can actually hack this system in a way to where it's beneficial." Yeah. What's he as a kind of has done? Yeah, I don't think when he signed up, it was like first time I'm in, you convinced me. I think he probably spent a lot of time. Probably talked, ran down, did the math on, "Oh, it's this much and this much and this much. I have to use it this much." Versus a hotel is this cost and I'd be saving crazy. I mean, I should also say, they were scrolling on paper the whole time. Yeah, yeah. I've just got all these numbers and these points everywhere. Really? The points of these fucking points, man. Just on and on with points. And I'm not someone that can absorb a lot of information verbally in front of me and so my mind is just gone. Well, part of me, though, hearing that, it also seems like a tactic of just, it's a, it's a Christopher Nolan movie. Let's just drown you in this. It's kind of noise. And it looks kind of fancy. It sounds smart. And it's got to be right. So I'm just going to throw these numbers out you to confuse you. I think it's a perfect, I think tenet is a perfect example of like, I think that was an amazing film, but I don't know what the fuck happened. And I have no idea. And it actually made no sense at all. The other thing it was really scary seeing the hearing the pitch, pretty much being a regurgitation of what my parents have sold me on why time shares are a good idea. So they have everything my mom said of like why they do it. We're talking points in the sales pitch to you. Yeah, yeah, essentially they've drunk the collade. As I said, your mom and your dad, their time share freaks, but brainwashed, it seems like a bit. I also came across this completely separate of this episode. I was on the pleuribus Reddit. And there was someone who created a thread pleuribus is a metaphor for time shares and time shares sales people. And I thought that hit hard with just those like smiling aliens at your every just there grinning at you and the number of sales people that did come in so many of them Rob. Yeah, did my experience marry yours, by the way, like similar vibe, or do you feel like I got a more intense version of what you got? You got a bigger group version of it. I think mine was big. I'd say there were maybe 20 people in my group. And then you pointed off into like individual. Yeah, so every 20 20 people wanting it had 20 sales people. It's like a room full of little feral sales people all obviously trying to get their sale. Your room listening back felt bigger than my memory of it. My memory felt like a small little space, small little office. This was a pretty fancy big. This is one of the big players. Yeah, I was amused by the fact that you had to have if you were getting divorced, it had to be finalized before you could have this meeting. Oh, yeah. What is that? I don't know. I guess it's like a what finances you're responsible for maybe when you sign away, like it may be a few if you do want to be finalized, I might suddenly lose half my assets or something. It's a weird clause to even take the meeting. Let's just get those people that are pending divorce out of the mix. Get them out of the mix. Yeah, we don't even want to waste our time. I mean, it was responsible of them to make sure I wasn't drunk, like I wasn't allowed because it was an hour from signing up to when I went in that I wasn't allowed to go to the bar and get completely slushed and then walk in and just like sign away 45 grand. But I wonder how much of how much of those guard rails have been put up because of years of misuse in the sales process to where totally people are fighting it. And they're like, well, I was drunk and I signed up for this. Yeah. Now we have to make sure people aren't drunk. No, I've no doubt that it's been boarded for a reason. And as far as them being scams, I actually found I'll put this in the show notes. There's a website go quietly. It's like a travel site. That's yet a really good piece on like where the time she has actually our scams, a short answer. No, not legally. Yeah, the product is regulated and the contract enforceable. And the piece goes on to say what people experience as a scam is usually three separate things at once aggressive sales tactics that don't legally violate the contract maintenance fee escalation. So that maintenance comes in that fucking fee that keeps going up and up and up that wasn't fully internalized signing and in the separate ecosystem of post sale fraud that targets owners after the purchase. So there's this whole other thing and I'm actually curious if anyone's experienced this flight this bro chat at gmail.com where obviously once you've got the time share, you're kind of sealed in. There are ways to exit. But if you're googling, how do I exit my time share? There's a bunch of like scammers on the secondary market that'll swoop in and they will completely fuck you over. Yeah. So it's almost like there's a lot of hawkish things on the edges that'll come and fuck you up. Yeah. Like, you know, the time show I went to completely legal, they did all the things in the right way. That's like someone scamming you when you try to sell your car is not on the car dealer. Completely. And I think part of that thing that I found maddening was which was literally signing a form to go in and signing a form to leave is them basically on the record saying I got all the information and I'm choosing not to. Yeah. So that's kind of also protecting them as well, even though it just ended up being another very weird frustrating part of the process. Well, it seems like they have had to take lots and lots of precautions in order to make it legitimate because of accusations of totally it being a scam. Which I mean, I can say for the record, my parents have used time shares time and time and time again. No, little mini rob in your siblings, or they still over the you times shares, all over the place. They told us when they pass, those million points are going to, you'll have those to deal with. I said, I do not want. This is a version where you do turn into your parents and Calvin and Vincent, their memories of their parents are going to be going and doing these sort of like time shares as you try and use up these million points. Yeah. The parents could never use in their executive program. Yeah, yeah. Fuck. Um, I have a feeling people have thoughts on time shares. So it's flight this bird chat at gmail.com. I would love to hear good and bad experiences. Oh, one last thing. Um, those an interview I came across with a former time share sales person and one of the questions was what other tricks or techniques did you use? And they said, they were, um, they're too many to list here, but it was a godsend if we could see a piece of litter on the floor of the show home. So we could make sure the client saw us pick it up and carry it to the next bin. This would demonstrate a deep pride in our resort. We're also not allowed to wear any color shoes except black because people trust others wearing that color footwear slightly more trustworthy. I will say if there are any listeners out there that are X time share. Oh, they've left the cult. I think a follow-up episode would be great. Oh, yeah, someone about the sales process. Yeah, the bad, the ugly story related to the end and workings of a time share. Good or bad. Flight this bread chat at gmail.com. Or if you've experienced these meetings, maybe we do a little, um, Patreon episode where we talk to a couple people and get their experience on time shares. I mean, being in the delts, I feel like that two hours in there was the wildest most annoying ride in my life. It was so fucking weird, man. Feedback. A lot to the Chili's episode. Uh, Audrey wrote in, hi, David and Rob. My husband and I had one of our friends live with us for a year last year. Our thing was going to Chili's together, to get Triple Dippers and Margaritas. Before she moved out, we went to Chili's to commemorate our year together. The silverware wrappers had little doodles on them that we jokingly talked about getting tattooed. The next day we all got them tattooed on our bodies. Thought that was a beautiful story of bonding over Chili's. Jennifer said, is this is Jenny from the Boston area. I love the next session with armor for sleep. I'm enjoying the new to me, what to do when you were dead up. I'm on Spotify at this exact moment. It was awesome to witness David's first taste of fluff. I grew up in NH. - New Hampshire. - New Hampshire. - Americans are always speaking in code. - Well, we had to learn the abbreviations of every state. It's the postal code. - Oh, really? - C-A, California C-A. - Chicago, I-L. - You had to learn that it's cool. - There's a two character abbreviation for every state. - And some of them don't make sense. - I, it's like learning the abbreviations in chemistry. - Yes, the periodic table. - How? - The periodic table. - What age did you learn the abbreviations of states? - Age five. - No, this is elementary school. - Hey, in America, when you got detention, did you have to do lines? Was that a punishment here? We had to repeat the same lines. - Lines? - Lines of cocaine. - What was fucking weird in New Zealand? - You got highest fuck. No, you'd have to, like, I will not. It's at the beginning of the Simpsons part. - Yeah, yeah. - Did you do that? - No, my mom would make us do that, though. I remember a notebook. We'd have to write like 100 times. - I will not tease my sister. - So yeah, those sorts of things over and over again. - How do you get punish at school, detention? - Junior high and high school was detention. Elementary school, if it was during recess, you'd have to go stand on the wall. That was the punishment. We have to stand with your back on the wall. - Oh, and just wait. - In wait. - Okay. - Or you have to sit on the stage for lunch. The cafeteria was also the auditorium in the stage where the curtain was. If you got in trouble, you had to go eat your lunch, sitting on the steps. - So the punishment wait? - At the stage. - No friends were playing, essentially. Stand on the wall or sit on the stage by yourself. - I mean, it kind of makes sense, yeah. - Okay, so Jenny grew up in NIH, New Hampshire, with the ubiquitous fluff and nutter. Try it grills, or in a panini maker, a blurs line between lunch and dessert. It's delicious. Fluff was invented in some of the full MA. What's the MA, Massachusetts? Yes, I know so much. And it still made an MA. Some of all may have claimed to the birth of your favorite sandwich spread with the annual, what the fluff festival. It's happening September 19th, flufffestival.com. I'm gonna investigate that. Megan says, "Oh, this is about the Dell's episode, "H, you found this really interesting." I know you love interesting history, so I was surprised you didn't mention H, H, Bennett, and stop motion photography. We took an upper Dell's boat tour and saw the beautiful sandstone rock formations. One of which standing rock is where H, H, famously had his son jump repeatedly to get a picture and prove his particular stop action shutter was the real deal. Today, they have a dog perform the jump for tourists. I had no idea this famous photographer perfected his shit at the Dell's. Henry Hamilton Bennett, born 1843, American photographer, famous for his pictures of the Dell's, with the Wisconsin River and surrounding region, taken between 65 and 1908. The popularity of his photography helped turn the city of Wisconsin, Dell's Wisconsin into a tourist destination. - Oh, and that, by the way, is why they have all those old timey fucking photo places on the strip. That makes sense. - That makes sense. - Yeah, that was the length that made me gas. - There was another person that didn't come up in the Wisconsin Dell's episode. Someone had mentioned to me when we were talking about Wisconsin Dell's, and he asked if I remember Tommy Bartlett. He was an American show man, best known for founding a water ski show in Wisconsin Dell's. - Oh, I could see big water ski show in that river. It's big, it's wide. - In 1952, traveling group of entertainers based out of Chicago moved its base to the Dell's where performers continued touring at World Affairs and USO shows. In '53, after the show stopped in Wisconsin Dell's, the local chamber of commerce asked him to keep the show there permanently. So Tommy Bartlett would do it there. - I feel like there's so much entertainment that comes out of that spot because there's an area, I feel like a 20 minute drive from the Dell's, which is the birthplace of one of America's biggest circuses. - Yeah. - And they have like a museum of that as well. - Well, it also looks like a 1982, he opened Tommy Bartlett's robot world in exploratory, which is now just Tommy Bartlett's exploratory. It's a science museum attraction. - I gotta say, I wanted the robot world more. - Yeah, they dropped the robot world from it apparently. - The cell, probably just had one robot. - But today, the water ski show itself is gone. The exploratory science museum lives under the Ripley's ownership as Ripley's Tommy Bartlett exploratory. - We got a fuck ton of feedback to the Dell's, a lot of Americans. - There's so much about the Dell's that one episode could not continue. - No, it's a crazy, so it is like Vegas. - So you can't do one episode about Vegas. It's like there's so much weirdness to the place. - I think we need to follow up episode about the senior underbelly of. - Agree, Wisconsin Dell's. - Agree. I gotta press into that cocaine running. - You're gonna get killed. - I'm making the fuck out. - Trying to follow this lead. - What a way to go. - Oh, this is kind of amazing. Marion Rodin, I'm a Kiwi who worked at a Jewish summer camp in the Dell's in the 2000's. Coming from small town New Zealand, it was an amazing all-American experience. I'd never met a Jewish person before. I didn't know what Kosher or Shabbat was. I'd never eaten dairy cream, fried cheese. We're onto non-Jewish things now. Drunken mics, hard lemonade, or tried so many other and healthy American foods. I left at the end of my summer, very tanned 10 kilograms heavier and couldn't wait to go back for another summer. On another note, I'm another New Zealander got stranded in the US during COVID. Couldn't fly back 'cause of the crazy online booking system to get a spot and managed isolation. I ended up on an OVISA, and I now live in Aspen, Colorado. And they've invited us there anytime we wanna go. - Aspen. - Just always nice to meet another New Zealander that got trapped here. Marissa says in regards to our Delosie episode, it wasn't a water slide, and I did not personally get sliced by any razor blades. However, the dry slide park down the street from where I grew up did have razor blades glued to it when I was a kid. Caused quite the stir in the community. I found an article about it and I've sent it to you. I'm opening it now. Parents in British Columbia have been told to be vigilant when taking their kids to play at public parks after razor blades and broken glass were found in a play area. So, possibly not an urban myth after all. - Yeah, probably was a result of the urban myth. - Of the urban myth, some dipshit decided to actually do it. - Yeah. - Finally, Ali says, "This isn't razor blades, but fish hooks." And David's lovely hometown of Fungade, New Zealand, which is where I'm from. - Not Bethlehem. - Not Bethlehem. A playground in honorari, he had hundreds of fish hooks spread through the back. - Awful. - One could got one in his foot. Fortunately, it was the only injury. I'll fact check that and it was true, 2015. Playground in my own hometown. Covered in fish hooks. And also in 2018, in New Zealand, there was a pin found in a strawberry. Also true. Imagine biting into a lush strawberry and having a pin and pails. - Yeah, I don't like any of these stories. - It's getting close to Halloween. Good to be spreading some spooky stories around. - Yes, don't eat strawberries. - Don't eat strawberries. - Or anything that you could put a pin in. - Anything you could put a pin in or anywhere a razor blade could be? Don't go. - Beth, just stay in the house. - Yeah. - Don't just stay in the house. - And don't eat food. - Don't eat food. If you have feedback, we have [email protected]. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/flightlessbred. Over there, we have been discussing, and I keep trying to put this off, but we've been discussing what matching tattoo you and I are gonna get. 'Cause we reached a certain number of patrons, we promised we would get a tattoo. So this discussion has been going on over there. We are listening to it. Suggestions on what we get tattooed, what that's gonna be. If you wanna come and enjoy it and on bonus episodes and more chat, we are patreon.com/flightlessbred. - Yeah, and we're also planning a Los Angeles, Lord of the Rings screening that we're putting on. - And I've reached some members. - For the first time, I've gotten enthused about Lord of the Rings because a favorite new metal album by a band called Lameth, thematically is based around Lord of the Rings. And it has peaked my interest in the world of Frodo, Gandalf, Get Samwise, Samwise, Gamji, Gollum. - Gollum. - Ergon, Legolas, Liz, who's that actor? - Live Tyler, what else do I know? - Peter Jackson, Lord of the Rings, we love it. And we're gonna do a screening. So all that is happening over at patreon.com/flightlessbred. If you have any feedback, we always [email protected]. - And also on our Patreon, we do bonus episodes every week. So you want more of David. - And more of Rob, then you can get it weekly over there. - Yeah, it's actually really fun. We're having fun over there. Come and join us if you don't know about it already. And lastly, if you want to watch us, You can watch us on Spotify with fewer ads. - Yes. - Or you can go over to YouTube. - We shoot this whole thing. It's pretty awesome. It's in Rob's studio. You should watch it. Spotify or YouTube. And remember, one more time, [email protected]. If you have any feedback, but specifically this week, anything about time share experiences. See you next week. - See you next week. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)