06: Timeline Ch 5—Artist-Programmer Era (1970s) with Joan Truckenbrod, Hans Dehlinger & Anika Meier

[Music] Hello everybody and welcome to this Lerandum discussion celebrating chapter five of our Giderative Art timeline. And that covers the decade of the 1970s. So I'm your host Peter Bowman or Monk Anthony. I'm the content person at Lerandum and I have two special guests, guest host with me today. One is Anika Meyer from Extended Art and Conrad House from Grande. And today is all about 1970s, the decade and generative art history. And Lerandum, I've been writing this generative art timeline and we've been going through the the history of generative art going back to 70,000 years ago. And Conrad has been working with me on it, helping me out, especially adding photos. And we started with chapter one, the pre-modern era of generative art history going back to 70,000 years ago. And we thought a talk for each chapter and today we're at chapter five and that is the decade of the 1970s. And we are absolutely drilled and lucky to have two artists and pioneers who began their work, their long career in the 1970s. And we're absolutely thrilled to also have two very different perspectives today. We have the perspective of an American woman and a European man, again, who both began their work in the 70s. So I'm so excited to talk to both of them today. Our two very extremely special guests today are Joan Trucken-Broad and Hans Dalinger. And Joan is an artist, author, and educator whose work creates a conduit between technology and nature. She began making coded author rhythmic work in the 1970s and in the mid-70s. And it's one of computer-generated arts, foremost artist, boundary pushers and educators. Her work has been exhibited at the Whitney Museum of American Arts, the Smithsonian Institute, and all across the world. It's an incredible honor to have for today, Joan. Thank you so much for joining us. Would you like to add anything to your introduction, Joan? Well, thank you very much for including me in this really interesting and provocative discussion. Just a couple things. My work was also in the Lackma Show, titled "Coded Recently," and R.C.M. Gallery in Paris has some of my work, current as well as past, and an upcoming exhibition which you're probably familiar with, Radical Software Women, Art and Computing 1960 to '91 at the contemporary Museum in Luxembourg will be next September. And then it will travel to Const Hall, Wien in February, to May of 25. So thank you. Well, amazing to look forward to those upcoming and the EU. And Hans is also a pioneer and an artist. He also pioneered computer-generated art, beginning work in the 1960s and 70s. He started programming languages with computers in the early 60s during his studies in Stuttgart, and we were very keen to talk about that. Then he also studied and got his PhD at Berkeley in the States. And he's been practicing making art with computers for over 40 years. So Hans, thank you so much for joining us. And is there anything you'd like to add about yourself? I was lucky to study architecture in Stuttgart at a time when lots of these things began there. And I was today, I'm called a pioneer, but I think I'm a pioneer of the second generation, because I was looking up to these real pioneers a lot. And I started actually as an architecture student with learning Igoal. I was 68, which was pretty unusual for an architecture student at the time. I did it not because I was interested in art also, but I wanted to improve architecture. The topic I was really interested in. And this was the beginning, but there was a student general led by Max Spencer at that time. And Friedel Nage was his, he made his dissertation with him. And there was not even a computing center at this university. It was called Institute for Numerical Mathematics. And at that institute, Friedel Nage was operating on his Tusek Kartholmart, and I happened to work by and saw these things. And I fled because I thought, if I stayed too long, then it sucks me in my architecture student's icon. And I couldn't afford to live in a university as an artist, because it's a difference to live off art or to live off architecture really. And my living was in architecture. And thank you for highlighting, I mean, you're highlighting your special career, but also both of your connections to Max Spencer and SteuKart and Frieder. And then Joan, you also have these connections to Sonia and Chicago and many others. So yeah, we get that way to get into all of all of these details. And then let me also introduce our last non-Lorandom guest, who's also a host. She's a special guest host, Beth Annika Meyer, curator, writer, and lecturer who's building expanded art, the physical space and reliance that I was very lucky to be able to see in person a few weeks ago and meet her very cute dog that hopefully we hear in this talk today. So, Annika, thank you so much for joining us. And is there anything you'd like to say about yourself? Thank you for your kind words and for inviting me. Yeah, maybe Joan, I've read the Lachmark catalog yesterday and there's a very beautiful essay about the work in there and very beautiful images. So to everyone who would also like to read a bit and learn more about the Lachmark show, I can highly recommend getting the catalog. So yeah, and maybe how Hanson I met, he, I think that was sort of exactly a year ago, maybe, Hans, right? One day, he stood in front of me and was looking at a plotter drawing from Massage Whitleyk and he just didn't leave that plotter drawing and then I went up to him and then he was like, look, there's was an issue with the pen and then I asked him who he was and yeah, three months later we've done his first solo show with the gallery and upcoming is his first solo show with a big gallery in Shanghai in March. So, and another one with us. So I'm very happy that he came to the gallery and couldn't stop looking at the plotter drawing of Massage Whitleyk. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Annika. Yeah, please. Hans. I was, I'm actually also a carpenter, a churnumin, a joiner and I did a lot of, made a lot of draws to put my drawings in because nobody was interested to look at them. And so I've just built this draws and Annika was the first one who really got besides some academic things like stick graph and so to meet the people, you had to go there and then you got an accepted piece then that university would pay the travel. Otherwise it would be expensive to go there. Yeah, that's the, that's the promise to go and then our last, our last member of the, of the talk today is Conrad House Mimo Keke also from Miranda. He is our, our collecting and, and research guru. So Conrad, how are you? Can you please tell us any more you'd like to say by yourself? Yeah, I don't think we need many more introductions. Just talking about the collection at LaRandaum. I think, I think most people listen to this, maybe know who I am, but super excited for this talk today, super honored to have Joan Hans and Annika here today. This is going to be a super exciting talk and maybe just to lay a bit of context before we kind of jump into some of these main questions. We can ask Peter and Annika a couple questions. Maybe broadly about the 70s starting with Peter. I think we see the 70s marked as like this very large space of like exploration and pioneering efforts for these artists kind of responding to the rigidity of like the 60s. And it was also kind of this, this very challenging time because there's this waning optimism kind of from the burst of energy that we saw in the 60s where a lot of people were paying attention to the 60s and what was happening with computer art. And then the 70s might have seen a bit of a dip. So it's kind of this constant struggle to continue to push this computer-generative art movement and then kind of continuing this forward practice of making sure that this practice doesn't die. So what can we learn more about this decade today, Peter? - Yeah, just a couple of things. And I think that's a really good question. I mean, I think in terms of the response to that rigidity, I think that's one of the reasons why we're so pleased to have Joan on today, because that's exactly what her work demonstrated. And then in terms of that kind of waning optimism and kind of the pessimism of the 70s, and again, maybe Hans and Joan from speak about this as well, it kind of reminds me a bit of our time today when we had a bit of a burst of energy earlier in the decade. And now we're kind of experiencing a little bit of a drawback in some of that optimism. So I'm wondering maybe since there are some of these parallels what we can learn from this decade that we can apply to today. - Yeah, and that's a great point. I think throughout the all the decades, there's many parallels that we can draw to kind of this really current history that we come up with. - Oh no. - And then I think we can switch it over to Annika. Maybe just starting with a very broad question, Annika, but what kind of sticks out most to you about the decade in the 70s, like maybe when you think about computer art in a generative art at this time? - I mean, the interesting part is that it's a very good question. And Nomada, I think also at what decade we are looking when it comes to computer art, it's sort of like always the same discussions, no? The computer as a partner, as a randomness, and yeah, basically how you can apply technology and then the broader discussion. And that's what I guess also both artists, we have with us here tonight is that Nomada, what decade we are in artists had to fight for, yeah, computer art to be accepted as art, or just broadly speaking art with technology. So yeah, I mean, reading the book, maybe from Habad-E-Franca, which was, he has been writing in the late 50s. I reread the book in 2022, and it read like it could have been written, like just that year, because it's always the same discussion. And when we look at the work from the 70s, especially also the aesthetics, I think a lot of these things repeat itself now. And in this decade, I guess also Hans and Joan will tell us more about, she started working with textiles, that also wore a lot of artists to these days. So history sort of is repeating itself. So I'd be really excited to hear more from Joan with you by the way, and Hans. - Yeah, I think Joan is having a couple of technical difficulties. She'll be rejoining us shortly, I'm sure. So because maybe Joan is having a technical challenge, maybe, oh, okay, do you want to start with your first question for Hans? And then yeah, Joan can join us so we can begin with questions for her at that time. - Yeah, Hans, I've already mentioned that we've met each other a year ago at the gallery at our gallery, Spana.arton Berlin. And yeah, then we, like on that day, I think we have started a conversation about you also, yeah, how you see yourself. And I thought in the introduction that you would say, oh, I'm not an artist, but you didn't do that. And the cybernetic serendipity to place in 1968, and there was sort of like a big discussion, or it was just like the fact that like half of the artists in the exhibition or half of the artworks in the exhibition weren't coming from artists, because simply the people who had access to computers, were scientists and mathematicians. So just people who don't have an artistic background, same as you. So I'd be interested to hear from you how you see yourself today. Do you still say I'm not an artist? - My website is called Chinner-Dive Art. So I guess I must be a little bit an artist today, or I could name myself. But you mentioned the scientific serendipity show. And actually when I arrived in Berkeley, I, by a lucky incident, I stumbled into the exploratorium where the scientific serendipity show just had arrived, and I spent a whole afternoon, single person, nobody else, but me in these rooms, it was not even utterly unpacked yet. And I remember my study time where pieces like running Cola is Africa was one of these things that was just kicking me out of my shoes. And how was it done? What is happening there? And this show was really, one important step stone in my recognition of this entire field, I have to say. And I listened to a lecture by J. J. R. Kathleta in London someday, but and it was, yeah, it re-confirmed what I had felt already at that time, really. (audience member mumbles) - Yeah, it's, I'm definitely one of those major milestones and the history of this movement. And maybe I can turn to you, Joan, and ask you a question. I'd like to start just about where you began working with computers. So I really like to just start kind of at the beginning. So you began working with computers and art. I believe in 1975 and your motivation was I believe to kind of describe natural phenomena. And I'd be curious to know what inspired you to specifically work with computers and art at a time when they were so inaccessible. - Peter, can you hear me? I think I'm frozen out or can you hear me? - Right now, yeah, we can hear you now. - Okay, so I'll just continue even though the picture doesn't, the video doesn't seem to be live. Actually, it was probably '74. I was teaching art and my teaching assistant had started working with computers with an architectural person and helping with the basic design class. We were studying symmetry operations and he developed a program of infortrane using the plotter so that each student could design a module and then we would have the computer process their imagery or their module and then draw out 20 different symmetry operations. So that was sort of, I guess, a lightning bolt for me because through the process of 20 symmetry operations, you could see the visual dynamics shift radically and that was pretty exciting. So in order for me to work with the computer, which I was at a university, so it was a large mainframe, but I had to take two semesters of infortrane programming, which I did. And then also developed algorithms and programs that were then used to create plotter drawings. But what was interesting to me was I felt an incredible freedom that I wasn't locked into processes or final products of existing media like photography has its rules, printmaking has its rules. So this for me was incredibly freeing that I could do basically whatever I wanted. And at the same time, I discovered that there were that the programming allowed me to have access to invisible worlds, not like a microscope, but through mathematical descriptions that scientists had developed that described phenomenon in the natural world that were invisible but palpable, like wind currents or light waves reflecting off of irregular surfaces. So using those mathematical formulas, I put them into algorithms which then developed into programs and then had gone to the plotter for drawings. But what I didn't work in a sequential way for me variables are like bubbles on the beach that shift and change every time the tide comes in and out. So I would create a series of drawings that were related. And then I still have a number of many roles of these plotter drawings where they're related drawings but they're not sequential. So in a way they were generative but not in a sequential way where I went from one to two to three to four. So that was really. - Invigorating for me. Do you want me to go on to the textiles or? - Well, Hugs, is there anything that resonates there that you'd like to respond to? - Yes, the basic class in studying architecture was taught by a Bauhaus master, one of the last ones. And we had to work on big sheets of paper with very small elements, writing an entire tableau, just to frame our hand to write ABC. And this sort of meticulous, precise working by hand has also some algorithmic smell in my room and my memory. And it was a lot of work and teachers work. And then when I then saw people like Nays and Margot do other things with machines, I got really hot. But I looked up to them. I was far away from getting into this because my interest was architecture really. And later I detected a very close similarity between this algorithmic thing you're working and the design process as a channel public. Designing is something that you need when you do this algorithmic things also. And the entire difficulties of designing apply there as well. And so Nays, this is the connection that I got hooked to these things. - I was actually working in isolation. So it was just like, oh, oh, oh, oh, it's the process of continual sort of discovery. And it really invigorated my studio process. It took a long time with the computer center and then the platter drawings were created by the geology department. And so there was this interface with across the university. And I could not convince the geography or the geology geography department, I guess, to use different line widths. So most of the pen drawings, the platter drawings are the same line width. And I also could not convince them to use color. And articulate different aspects of a particular drawing using color. So what I did to create color was I created a series two or three or four related drawings and then I used color zeroography. And each of those drawings was printed on a Xerox machine in a specific color on a transparency and then they were overlaid. So I would have drawings with two colors or three colors or four colors. But and they were platter drawings, but they were created in color using color zeroography. So it's the idea that you have something you want to make and you figure out how to make it. And with the computer, the power and the range of potential is just incredible. - Well, I mean, that's very much the spirit of generative systems and so on to share it and as well that reminds me a lot of that. And yeah, I love that. Since you were working in isolation, Joan, what did those other scientists think of you? Like what did they think you're doing? I mean, what was their reaction to what you were doing? You're making quote unquote art with these machines. - Probably, they probably thought I wasn't making anything meaningful, right? But I didn't have any, I wasn't paying attention to them. I just had these things I needed to do and these things I needed to make and these drawings I needed to explore. And so I just pushed ahead. And I did have a support of art department. You know, they got me a key punch machine. They paid for the computer time. They paid for the plotting time and the platter drawings. So in that way, I was very lucky. And I was lucky that I was at a university and had access to, I mean, I never saw the computer, right? - Exactly, yeah. That's an interesting point. In Berkeley, it was called the three dimensional IBM punch card and it was in the fifth basement because it was bomb secure. And you never saw it. You always, they were, yeah, you delivered your deck and you got it back through a hole and that was it. But the other thing was that really threw me in Berkeley. There was a teacher as a graduate student who had a big lipid liberty of choosing whatever you wanted and then Berkeley walked in 10 minutes across the canvas to a different department. And there was a professor Laura Gold and she taught the first class computers for the humanities. And she introduced Snowball Snowball. Snowball 4 developed by the bell telecom at that time. And this class was so full with crazy and strange students that it really was fantastic because it was so different from IGOL where I was sitting with engineers and calculators and mathematicians, not understanding what they were talking about, but in this class and years later, years later, I gave a talking Denver on a conference and at the end I was asked what computing language do you use? And I said, oh, I'm still using Snowball 4 and the entire audience started to laugh. And I was shocked because I don't know why are they laughing? It's, you can do many, many things with this thing. And then I thought I have to ask them back, a question they cannot answer honestly. And I asked, do you have a computer language on the laptop or machine that is running since 30 years without a change? Silence. So much to computing and strange approaches to this area where you could do things, you have never dreamed of before. - And also I might add just that we didn't see the imagery we were creating. There was no monitor. And so the experimental process was envisioned. And sometimes it corresponded to what the plotter drew out and sometimes it didn't. So I think that was part of the excitement because some of those that you, the unexpected drawings, you know, moved you in new directions. So and mistakes also moved you in new directions. - Interesting. Pretty similar, but I experienced in this entire distance of, yeah. It's reassuring that you, talked about this sentence and problem. Because when I later got a job at an art school as a professor in design, only artists around me, I said, well, are there computers? Art doesn't need computers. Well, I think we should need them. We should train the students. And then I looked for people around me and there were none in the art school. And finally I got a little bit money and reports on, but it was a hostile environment against this came out of a computer. It was not considered respectful to the public of art. And that's changed neatly, I think. And maybe today's in the same position with the Kali coming up. And when we started with the computers, nobody, even the experts, I believe, could expect that the speed with which they developed and changed. And maybe the same with the new stuff that comes out of the AIRK, what you call it. We don't know. And if we underestimated, probably as we did years ago. - You get to go. - And Hans, you've just said that when you first saw Clean and Naka working with plotter drawings, you were excited. You actually were so excited that you thought you'd better stay away from it. So what in the end made you start working with plotters? And when you started working with plotter drawings and computers and code, what were you, because you also have a background architecture, right? So what were the topics that interested you and what were you doing? you're also coming, like looking at, I don't know, the history of abstract art and concept art and so on. I think it was to be clear that there is a contribution of this field to art in general. And no matter if the colleagues around me would accept this or not. So I just worked with people who were open to this. And we started with the small exercises. We got computers for the art school and we made a lecture series open to the public. It was called a computer in the Kuhn-So-Schule. Computers at an art school. And we invited people that were pretty unknown at that time, Peter Weibel, who later became a director of ZEDKA. People that were open to these things. And it developed and at a certain point, even the most stupid artists accepted it also. They realized the benefits simply. And you can do different things and they can't be good and they can't be called art. That's a problem, I think. Yeah, I think the connection, you mentioned, Bahaou's earlier, there was resistance to this as art. But the connection art historically to abstraction, abstract art and Malavitch's, Maholini published those kinds of abstract drawings was clear to me. And the other aspect of it was that I felt that intuitively there was so much potential with the computer, as you say, because of the range of things that you could do with it. And that became increasingly clear with the microprocessors, with the Apple computer. I can talk about a class that I designed that actually acknowledged and took advantage of that using the Apple computer. Well, yeah, that brings us to, yeah, I'd love to talk about your time, especially in Chicago with Sonia. So Joan, how did your time begin there at the Art Institute? What made you choose that program? And then can you just walk us through your time there? What it was like to study with Sonia. And for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about Sonia, Sonia Sheridan's or Generative Systems, her iconic tenure program that was at the Chicago, the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. So yeah, can you tell us about that time, Joan? Well, I only, I was teaching at a university about 60 miles west of the city and actually, an actually a friend introduced me to her. And I had an MA, but I didn't have an MFA. So if I wanted to continue teaching, I needed an MFA. So I had the opportunity to meet her and to show her some of my plotter drawings. And she had already become interested in the computer, even though she was working with a range of copy machines. She saw the potential and extending her ideas from copy machines into the computing realm. She saw that importance. And so she immediately asked me to come and join her at initially as a graduate student and then I became head of the Art and Technology Department there. But she had designed, well, she had designed a series of classes because copy machines use heat, light, pressure, what our natural forces in the world to engage students in a different way of thinking about making artwork creatively. She created two classes called Process One and Process Two. And what they were was using natural forces like light, pressure, heat, magnetics or magnetism to make images. So it became totally experimental and, you know, we spent the studio days experimenting and exploring different ideas. And so then she asked me to teach those classes so she could, she was a one person department. So when I was there, I could support her, her vision and allow her to do other things with undergrads as well as graduate students. So I began teaching those classes in which case we analyzed the processes and then used different aspects of them to make images and working alongside of her, not always knowing what was coming next. She's very inspiring, she's magical, she's mystical really. So it was a very lively and dynamic environment working with her. And then I went on to do the textiles there. I actually had obtained an Apple II computer on a grant when I was at the university. And so they sent me one in box. And so that allowed me to develop curriculum, the first course that I also then, that I taught at the university. And then I taught at the Art Institute. This idea that there's potential with the computer to make different forms. And the other interesting aspect is the artist makes the form. The media doesn't make the form. It gives the artist the freedom to envision what form. Is it going to be sound? Is it going to be sculptural with 3D printing? Is it going to be a drawing? Is it going to be animation? So I had a class called Creative Computer Imaging that we went through the processes of visual images. And this was using the Apple IIE and the video digitizer. I think I forgot the name of it, micro tech maybe. So they could work photographically but manipulate and transform images. They could make sound. We did animations. And we worked with sound and sound manipulations. I eventually did an installation. I think it was in Montreal. It imaged a future where we gathered their visual image and their sound image. And we transformed them both and then we fed them back to the viewer. So it was an exciting time to begin to sort of engage students. And we had lots of students. We had lots and lots of students in the computer classes. And maybe to expand on a bit, you mentioned it a little bit with the digital textiles that you began practicing here. I think this is one of your most significant kind of practices throughout your career, John. Can you expand on what was the inspiration for these works? And then I had a bunch of more like the Bauhaus weavers to you when you were creating a lot of this stuff. Luckily, we talked about the lack much also. And I think electronic patchwork was shown there. That's a beautiful piece. I think if you haven't seen it before, you can take a look through some of John's previous work in the 70s and 80s and get a feel for what we're talking about here. Well for me, the materiality is always important. Not only as a presence in the world, but as the sort of rich engagement with the viewer. So for me, there was always the struggle to get off the screen. You know, shaking. How do I do shake the computer and pour it out? So trying to figure out how I could get, how I could engage some kind of material presence in the artwork. And we had a copy machine called 3M, color and color, copy, or with a backlight setting. So I was working on an Apple computer, which of course I believe was eight colors in the pixels or boxes. So that's the reference in that title, not only to electronic patching, but to quilting. And so I created programs. And these images were more sequential by changing the values in the variables. I created sort of an animation, but I would display one image at a time on the monitor. And then I would turn the monitor upside down on the computer or on the copy or rather. It had a backlight setting, so it could understand the monitor, the image on the monitor. And then I used heat transfer material. And we printed one image at a time. I changed the, you know, click the computer, change the image, make a print on heat transfer material. And then there's quite a few on that first one. Electronic patchwork was the first one. And each image would have to be trimmed down because it was a Xerox paper. And then I would hand iron them back onto, I would arrange them and then hand iron them onto polyester. And it was, the color was not powder, it was dye sheets. And so the color was micro encapsulated and really worked best on a polyester. So the other interesting thing about digital media is, periodically the artifacts of the media come into the work, right? So when you turn a monitor upside down on the copy machine, sometimes the color migrated and so that it just became part of the process. And because they were hand-ironed back onto fabric, once in a while, the iron image would be in the work. But interesting to me, because the hand was actually in the work, the artist's hand was in the work. And to just sort of jump on that, so I did do a series of those. They're all in collections currently. I didn't ever have, I loved Annie Albers weaving because her interest in mathematics, not only in creating regularity and her patterns, but in creating irregularity. And for me, that was really important. And I didn't have the opportunity to weave, but I now have a digital loom. So I am continued to be inspired by her work. And the potential of this, it's a digital jacquard, it's the TC2, which is basically a thread controller from Norway. I have the loom from Norway, because I knew, you probably know, Vibeka as well. And it's just, because, well, there's a lot going on, you know, each point, it's kind of like a point to less painting. If you're working with four colors, the thread controller can pick up whatever color it should be at that particular point on the image that you've designed. And the stitch patterns play a role in the textural aspect of it. Every time I throw a shuttle, I throw, if I'm working with four colors, I throw four shuttles, and then the computer changes the configuration of the headels between each one. And if you want the design as you originally envisioned, you keep the shuttles in order, and you keep the same colors. However, because I'm interested in diverting, disrupting rather the patterns, I frequently change coloration. And at any point, you can also change imagery. So because I like to juxtapose, I just did a series on the homeless issue here in America using fences as an inspiration, and the rigidity and the confinement that Chances create for homeless people, which I feel is inappropriate, identifying them as different. So I created weavings that had regularity, but then juxtapose with much more organic forms. So inspired by her and sort of jumping off from some of hers. You'd think you. Yeah, Hans, would you like to talk about any of your inspirations? The thing that we fascinated right from the beginning was the close analogy between the Julia Packet programming code and the hand drawing. Because what you do by hand, if you draw, you pick up a pen, pen up, and if you draw, you put it down and you move. And exactly these three commands are the most important ones. You can actually do with these three or four things, pen up, pen down, move anything you want. And this sort of analogy in the early days was very reassuring to me that it cannot be wrong to do with these things. You're wrong because you do it with the hand exactly the same way, just driven by other muscles of energy and I think and still in one of the secrets I got into a talk with the Microsoft high official and and I just hit written my first small program at that time by replacing replacement statements in Microsoft Word. I think you need five replacements and you have a HPGL code which you can submit to a product and the mix drawing and it didn't even allow the should it's possible to do such things. But these are like like Trone mentioned by experimenting on a very basic level. You encounter problems, you can exploit to exactly what you want to achieve and that is that is that's it. So let's grab the tools and use them and see what comes out. Touch the outcome. That's the other thing. Okay. Maybe it's a little bit off topic but these are just by talking or listening. This memory has come back in a way. I also remember when I was first learning we had an old tool the machine at that university and you had to look arrows up in a very thick book and mostly the error I made as a non-mathematician was division by zero. So nothing will work with this. Okay. Can I make one more comment about the weaving? Of course. So what I've also done is cut up one of the weabings and made a house form and then I have access to 3D scanning and 3D printing. So that was 3D with a technician so that was 3D scanned along with dried coiled seaweed from the organ cause and dried leaves. And then on the computer in the virtual space of the computer you can inject one into the other and kind of why I don't want to use the word weave but line them together in interesting ways. So I kind of wound this fiber house up with the coiled seaweed and sort of there's some of the 3D prints have dried leaves with the houses and the coiled soft the coiled seaweed. So then I've been able to 3D print these in resin. So this is a new thing for me and I'm really invigorated by this transition from one form to the other and plan to be doing more of that. I've also been able to do a laser embossing of an intermediate pattern of the imagery, the gray scale imagery that gets translated to the computer. So there's this acrylic. So there's this laser embossing that goes along with the weaving that you'd never imagine the connection but it's very curious and very interesting to me because the gray values determine the depth at which the laser embosses the surface. So anyway. May I ask the question? Yes, please. Thank you. So both of you were dealing sort of with the same issues. I mean, broadly speaking. And you lived basically at the, yeah, Hans was also in Berkeley but Hans, you studied in Stuttgart and you were, for example, you told me you were looking up to Herbert V. Franke. So how important was it back then to know what other artists were doing, maybe in America, while you're looking at artists, what are artists doing in Europe and the other way around and were you in touch and speaking with each other and like helping, I mean, today we're all on Twitter. This will be broadcasted or shown later on Twitter. So it's super easy for all of us to exchange and solve issues. How was it back then without Twitter or email? The work of Herbert V. Franke was very familiar to me because what he did was applying a generative system to produce outputs which I found interesting and it was not a traditional art process behind this. And this was, I mean, Benze coined this term aesthetic event to avoid the art issue. We don't make art. We don't want to talk about art. We produce singular aesthetic events. And that's exactly what Franke did and I was fascinated by these things. And actually very much later when I was, I think I wrote him a Christmas card which I had designed and he answered back and I found this letter recently. Is that thank you for your nice drawing. It's interesting. Is there more of it? Question mark. And I was very surprised to find this in one of my draws recently. Interesting. Yes. Herbert V. Franke, although in his major work, not a computer, driven guy, but analog working in a way. like Heinrich Heidersberg also is another one in that direction. We're working with a light point on a self-concepted camera in the machine and making these fantastic things. Okay. Maybe today people are still around that mix this up and not use only computers, but use other different mechanisms. Algorithms can be driven by many things. It doesn't need mathematics. Must need to be mathematics. Okay. This is. Does it answer your question in a way? Yeah, thank you. John, would you also like to reply? Sure. Once they're started to be conferences, of course, we all, we met each other. But my first connection was with Ruth Levit. There was a conference. I think it was in Toronto on humanities and computers and there's a book. And I can't tell you the year, but Ruth Levit was there and we just immediately connected and began to share ideas. And then also in Chicago, there were another group of artists. Eventually we all began to. Everybody was working so individually. I'm not sure. That we influenced each other, but there were resources. In my case, in Chicago, at the Arn Institute, there were other programmers eventually. Steve Wilson was there. John Don developed the painting program, the painting program. And then at University of Illinois, Chicago campus, Dan Sandin and Tom DeFonte and actually Copper Gilleth was there. So, yeah, there was a community, I think. Sometimes competitive. And then the ICA conference was I remember being a new track and learning about expanding my knowledge of other artists working in those areas. I can really only reinforce what you're set by adding my experiences. And this international conference, maybe ICA or CIGRAF or bridges or any of those which I attended. Many times as a teacher also. And you met people who were interested in similar topics. And this was utmost inspiring to me. And it was always a challenge to produce a small piece which got accepted so as you could apply for the travel money. It took a look at there. This was always an issue because there's an issue. This is quite a trip from here. And I remember also in Italy, we had this alternative art conference. I think the Celestino Zoddo is a 26 issue this year. In the beginning, I was many, many years and I remember vivid discussions among colleagues. What is generative art? What makes a generative kernel? What is generative? But what are generative algorithms? Is there definition? And so I think one of the most popular people came out of these conferences. Anyway. So I'm grateful that we have educational institutions that allow teachers of people at the University of Students as well to go there, meet colleagues, discuss things and go back home with a back full of inspiration. Really. Yeah, I'm really happy that you brought up those international organizations, those international events because they really did start in the 1970s. You know, the first art is electronic, which you know, Franco was involved with that started in the 70s and the Hans did you ever participate in any of those art electronic events? No, I was never in the art electronic art because I always regarded it as a very, very high level of and you had to really work hard to to get and I simply didn't have the time to do this is a if you I mean many of my colleagues at the art school never realized what I was doing. With what I was filling these draws because they were not interested and but it didn't bother me. Yeah, I had I had my pleasure and and the colleagues that. And very, very interesting students, that's your faith in the computers, which which was my responsibility as a teacher to get the money to buy the computers for the university, then they started doing things I enjoyed a lot also. So a great to be in a teaching position is a it's a privilege. Because you have young people around you and in this art school I was teaching we had 400 applications a year and we took 20. And it has changed because it's it is obscene, I think. If there are so many people that want to study art, they should give them the opportunity not only narrow it down. And you see that same demand, Joe and and wait when you were also an education for for so many years. Oh, yeah. Initially we had initially I started with a Saturday class so professionals could come in and it was, you know, we we filled the class immediately and I think we taught a second section. And then we started a class on the small Macintosh, you know, the little for graphic designers and that was also on Saturday and we were sitting. It was a large class, maybe 20, 22 and we were all sitting around one little Macintosh and the dean came down on that Saturday and the students just almost accosted him. It's like we need more Macintoshes and so on Monday he called me and he said order more. So the students became, you know, had a lot of power and then I expanded we expanded the curriculum and included animation and programming and then I had classes more concept based like. And then I think we sadly lost John in the middle of that response. Anika, did you want to jump to that last question while we were for John to come back potentially or. Yes, so my last question would be jumping to today. Hans, you've just mentioned that back in the days you didn't have enough time to work on what you would have left to be working on and I know that you're quite productive these days and also load a lot of new things. I had a lot of conversations about NFTs so maybe would you like to share with us what you're working on right now or not I mean precisely but what you're thinking about these days. Yes, I on the way of re vitalizing some of the plot as I have collected and try to start some actually I was falling down the ladder when I was getting a part of it and that's my problem right now a little bit. I think what I will do more again what I've tried to do all all my life time besides my jobs plotting to get the get that stuff out on a plotting machine and make it make a drawing out of it because and and a programmed drawing because I think the universe. The universe of machine drawings or machine or generated drawings is as big as the draw a universe of hand drawings and to explore this is by no means. Completely done we cannot say that that's history or so there's I think I'm really also interested to see what the car business brings out in that direction yeah it will probably not be printed by custom screen or anyway. To follow up on this basic ideas pen up pen down move this is a there's plenty to explore still although I have plenty of draws full already but there's no end inside really okay is it a good answer. Yeah thank you I mean it was really wonderful to go through all the draws with you and knowing that you have more castles I think we've scanned by now six or seven Sundays together at your studio and burden also and sculptor came by once I don't know. I enjoy going to visit your studio on a Sunday and go through drawers for four to six to eight hours. Yeah, I'm very excited. Okay. I can build new ones because I'm a very good drawer builder also. I can build this furniture on no problem and I can fill them. But I'm near 85 now and okay. That's that we need to go on many walks and many different cities all over the world. I think next up Harris and then Shanghai we both are big walkers. We enjoy walking everywhere. So we're looking for the really looking forward to walking around the world in different cities. So Joe. Hey, welcome back, John. I can't say anybody but I can reach out. Can you hear it? Can we? Yes, I can hear you. Yes, sorry. No, you're totally good. It's no worse at all. Go ahead, Peter. You can finish it. Yeah, I think Conrad is just going to say that we're just about to wrap up. Joe, would you like to do a Japanese closing thoughts as we kind of finish our talk tonight? Well, I just want to relay one sort of funny event after I had gone to the Art Institute to become department chair of Art and Technology, which was in the basement and we were the school's four stories high. This is the school of the Art Institute of Chicago and on the fourth floor is the painting department. So one day in the cafe was on the third floor. So one day I was in the elevator with a painter who was a good friend of mine. I won't mention his name, but and he's covered in paint and he says to me, you know, John, you'll never be able to make art with a computer. You don't have paint on your hands. So we, of course, have proven him wrong. It's still a really exciting field for me and I guess because the current work I'm sort of engaged in is the 3D printing and the laser embossing and the digital weaving. And of course, it's not limited. And thinking about early on there was a misunderstanding in terms of the role of the computer. It was not clear to people that the artist had really created the work using the computer. However, today I think there's more of an environment of collaboration between the artist and the computer. And so it's much more understood, but I feel that this collaboration that we are pushing many other people, of course, with AI, etc. That this is a really valuable direction and it's going to produce some really incredible artworks in the coming future. So good. And that's one before we wrap up today. Thank you again for everybody on joining. It's been great to hear so many of these great anecdotes and little information bits that we don't get to hear anywhere else. It's also great to hear that you guys are kind of both still exploring a lot of processes. And especially John was like 3D printing and embossing it kind of mentions what Hans says, these procedural and generative systems can be applied kind of anywhere you want them to be allowing randomness in your practice and allowing this emergence to really inspire you to explore new avenues is really awesome to hear. So thank you all for joining and giving so much great information. I'll let Peter take it away. I think that's the perfect kind of way to end that kind of route. And yeah, I'd just like to say thank you to Joan and thank you to Hans and Anika for joining us. And this was such a fun conversation. I mean, Joan, I'm such a big fan of your work and Hans as well. I love talking about history and who better than you to. So thank you both so much and I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for including me. I really enjoyed talking with all of you. Thank you. People on the camera are very strong. Thank you. [Music]