Tim Pughsley and Red44

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to another episode of "Light Sheet and Steel," the podcast about liars, frauds, these, and bullshitters. I'm your host, Patsy Royce. Just to let you guys know, we drop two episodes every month right here on our free feed that you can check out. And if you like what you hear, you can get two more episodes every month on our Patreon. That's patreon.com/Lightsheet and Steel. You get not only two more episodes a month, you get ad free episodes. You get access to our bat catalog, which is sizable and should be considered. And you know, and that's all that. It's a patreon.com/Lightsheet and Steel. Go check it out. That being said, I'm here as always in my co-host, Cath Barbara Doro. Cath, how you doing? - Hi, Pat. I'm doing good. We just recorded a few days ago. It's been 48 hours since you recorded. So not as much as you can jump on. - Dolly Parton has to weigh, oh yeah. - That honestly, Dolly Parton and Tim Curry in the last 48 hours since we, so it has been a big 48 hours of bad news. - We're all people dying, man. - Yeah, well, I have more bad news. I need, I just need to commiserate about this 'cause it just happened to me. And first of all, it's a story that makes me look good. So we gotta tell it. - Okay, that story's out there. - But also it's just like, it's really weighing on me 'cause it was really shitty. So I was on, I was on the train yesterday. And it was like eight o'clock. It was a full train. Like every seat was taken. There were like people in the aisles. There were, it wasn't like, we're all crammed, but it was full. It was very full. And there's a guy standing, I'm sitting down. There's a guy standing, holding the handrail above my head. We've been on for a few stops. And then the train stops, the seat next to me opens up and this old guy gets on, who's like clearly like a crazy homeless guy. He's like, he's literally like, no teeth like shriveled up old, you know? And he's lit, he's little. He's like a tiny little guy. And he sits next to me. And he's pretty obviously like a mentally ill homeless guy. And when he sits down, he like babbles something. Like he's just like, blah, like he says something loud, right? Yeah, you know, like, yeah, you're a classic guy who gets on the train. Slide the spot, a couple of shrieks, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, exactly. You know, we're getting down to the train. Let's get down to business, you know? Right. Y'all know what fucking time it is. Exactly. He's checking that off the list, right, you know? Don't think I wouldn't go do that. So, so he does that. And then, and the guy right in front of me, who's like diagonal to this guy, so they're really close. That, the guy in front of me starts going, shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up and yelling at those old man. And everyone on the train is like, oh no. Yeah, fuck. But the guy, and also it's like, this guy is not going to take direction from you. Yeah. If he, if he shuts the fuck up, that's a coincidence. He's not like, yeah, that's a, that's a wild, wild river man, he's got to let him float. Right. He's doing his thing. So he, but he's like, shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. And the, and everyone on the train, you can feel everyone's like, I really hope this guy doesn't say anything. Yeah. And the guy doesn't say anything, the guy doesn't say anything. But nevertheless, the guy in front of me starts getting in the guy's face and, and like mean mugging him. Like he's like, yeah. To this insane, like 90 pound man, he starts doing that. And then he soccer punches this guy in the face. He punches this old man in the face. And I am six inches from all of this. Yeah. And so like, I'm not like, you know, I'm a five foot four woman. I'm not like inserting myself into situations. No, no, yeah. But I'm, I'm right there. So I'm just, I'm like, hey, he didn't do anything. Like I say to the guy, like, hey, he didn't do anything. Relax. And like, you know, I wasn't screaming at the guy, but I probably could have just tried to de-escalate a little more instead of being like, what the fuck? That was kind of my natural reaction. Was to be like, what the fuck just happened? So I'm just like, dude, relax. He didn't do anything. And then I turn to the homeless guy. And I try to get the guy. I'm like, trying to see if he's OK. And then also trying to get him to walk to the other side of the train with me to get him away from the psycho. Who is still mean mugging both of us. Yeah, almost. He is not saying anything and he is just staring at us. And the crazy old homeless guy is not-- I can't get him to engage with me. I can't get him to move. Like he's clearly-- he's not in the train. Like he's somewhere else. And so it's not working. I see the guy-- the guy moves his hand, the guy who got punched. And I can see he doesn't have any, like, nothing looks broken or anything. He just, he got hit. But at this point, the guy, I'm like, if he'll punch this old man, I'm like, he will punch me, I think. Like, I don't think he's necessarily-- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And part of the reason I stood up for this guy is because I weigh twice with this old man. This is not me getting in the middle of the TV match fight. This is like-- And so I'm just trying to de-escalate and make sure this guy's OK. Meanwhile, this guy is clearly simmering. And I realize I have to get off the train. Yeah, I got off the next stop. I can't be on the train with this guy because, like, something bad's going to happen. So all of that happens. Again, there are 50 people. There are no one is doing or saying anything. Dead silent. Everyone is looking down. And I'm just like getting punch does suck. But like, you're not going to die. Like, help me out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The fact that it's like fucking, you know, like-- Yeah. Big-- there are big dudes present who could just be like-- Yeah, yeah, we all just do something. Yeah, yeah. And you don't even need to do something just like a verbal acknowledgement that someone on this train has my back and isn't going to flee if I get hit. Like, it was so crazy, just like the level of cowardice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like, it's like you can hit him. Those aren't running away. You're like, no, no, that's not-- Well, that, I mean, this old man got hit, and no one did anything. Like, why would I count on any of these people to do something if I got hit? Because they've already seen someone get hit, and they all pretended to be looking at their phones. So like, it's just like-- I'm not saying that you have to like volunteer for every fight if you're like a big dude. But you shouldn't be letting 90 pound toothless old men get punched in the face right here. Like, you should not-- like, you've got to put some shit on the line eventually. If I can do it, if I can do it, like, yeah. Nobody wants to get hurt. But also, the other thing is like, if you get punched because you're defending a little old man and a woman, you like get to brag about that for your whole life. So like-- So like, yeah, I'm sure you've been punched. And like, it sucks. It's not like-- You fucking, you know. It doesn't ruin your life. It ruins your-- it ruins your night. You know, like, it just was so crazy to me that nobody did anything. Like, I was so disappointed. Like, I was saying for your recorded, like, where's the fucking people on the Spider-Man tram? Like, I thought you messed with one of us. You messed with all of us. Like, where did that go? That's what I thought the city was about. I thought-- it's not like I thought I was going to start some shit and then some big guy was going to finish it for me. Like, that was not the vibe. I just wanted somebody to like, look at me a nod. Yeah, you just give some like, shit, hey, that's fucked up. Like, hey, are you seeing what the fuck just happened? Like, nothing. It was so disheartening and crazy. And yeah, I mean, you know, I was fine. Hopefully, after I got off the train, it inspired somebody to like, defend this fucking little old man. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do think part of it is that, like, it's because he was homeless. I think if he had punched like a guy who wasn't homeless or like a similarly sized, you know, person in a suit or something, someone would have done something, which is evil. But yeah, yeah, man, it was fucking crazy. Thank you for letting me get that out of my system and there's nothing to do with this episode. It just like, it really-- yeah, it really-- like, the scary part to me wasn't the guy mean mugging me. It was nobody doing anything. Like, because again, it's like, if this guy punches me, like, that sucks. But also, like, I am a lady and this guy punched me. I'm right. Like, I win. I win the fight by default, even if I get punched. Yeah. I guess I got the door guy's shit. So it's like, my instinct when something pops off is to just be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay. You know what I'm saying? I'll get in there and like, yeah, you catch a fucking dinger, you know what I'm saying? But like, what you realize you're not made of glass. Like, you're kind of like, when somebody hits you and you realize that you're like, it pisses you off more than it hurts, you're like, the fuck? Yeah, then it's on, you know what I'm saying? Right, and like, I get to that now, it's like, well, you never know who's like, you know, truly got nothing to lose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, like, the chances of that are still very low. Especially like, there's strength in numbers. Like, if we all, if we all just go, hey, you can't hit an old man, then like, [BLANK_AUDIO] - That's enough. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Good boss to that. Man, that's crazy. Also, it's like-- - It was wild. - That first dude, the second guy, like the guy who punched the dude, it's like, "Hey man, you seem like you're on the subway "pretty regularly. "Dude's come on and do that shit." Like, you know, that's like-- - Right. - Like, you don't think that's gonna happen? Like, (laughs) - Right, he's not, like, yeah, I don't love sitting next to the guy that's doing that, but also, like, he's a 90 pound old man. He's not hurting anybody. He's just, he's just getting some feelings out of him. - Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Man, yeah. That's like, you'll see dudes out in the street. I think there's real aggressive homeless guys, that'll be like, you know, like, like, walk around like, "Oh, yeah, they haven't argued with themselves in their head." - Oh, yeah, yeah. - That could be scary, but I think it's like-- - Totally. - It's as a dude, you can kind of see, it's like, "Those guys really don't want to fight anybody." You're like, "I don't go, like, what's up?" But I'll walk by and be like, "Okay, I'm just, "I'm just gonna walk by." You see them, they look kind of like, you see on office space when he locks the car door and the guy walks by, the black dude sells them roses, yeah, they'll like, do like, the physical version. They'll like, "Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, they'll see you." They're like, "They'll walk by." - Yeah, yeah. (laughs) - Yeah, no, those dudes, like, they're busy fighting the demons. They don't want to fight a person. They're, they're quite busy. Yeah, like, if I see, if I see a crazy guy like that, I'm probably getting away from him. And like, to be honest, if I saw this guy yell and at this little old man and I wasn't sitting right next to them, I probably would have tried to change cars or something, but I would like you to imagine that if someone was like, "Hey, that's not okay." I would be like, "Yeah, that's not okay." Like, you know, or try to like, help in some way. So yeah, it was, it was wild. - I think the kind of story about the city, somebody will hear that's the only thing they're ever gonna remember about it. Like, New York, fuck food, I hate food, I hate culture. There was a guy got punched, yeah, nobody did anything. - Yeah, totally. It's like, oh yeah, like, if this happened in the fucking suburbs, you'd all write about it on next door and lock your doors and get the fucking homeless guy arrested. So like, it's not better anywhere else. - Yeah, this reminds me of the stuff that like, fucking John Doe wrote about in "7," where he's like, "Oh, the one who read it is," and he's like, "I was on the train today." Like, that's like, that's the kind of shit he would write about in his little notebooks. - It's true, it's a very mis-entropic moment. I think that's why it bummed me out. - Yeah, yeah. There was something recently where it's like, there's some character in the show and he's like a fucking oddball character and they find his diaries. And it turns out he was writing from the other perspective of the John Doe and "7" thing. He was like, "Saw a guy in the train today and talk about the weather." He threw up on me and wouldn't stop laughing. (laughing) I forget what that was all about, but I was like, "Oh, it's really good." (laughing) - Well, you know, our show, "Speaking of mis-entropic stuff," I guess, taking advantage of others, kind of a mis-entropic thing. I don't know if this one necessarily counts. This is a crime near and dear to our hearts. I'm talking about a bookie today. - Oh, hell yeah, bookies, dude. Hey, you know what, I'm not unfamiliar with those guys. I don't gamble, but I know a couple of guys that run sports books, they're interesting characters. - Sure, yeah. Yeah, I think this is an interesting story because, you know, like sports gambling is legal in many states. However, it is criminal in many other states. And in some ways it exists in this very weird gray area. So, I am gonna tell the story about one of the sort of holdovers from the pre-Draft Kings pre-legalization era that was recently prosecuted for being a bookie. - Yeah, it's complicated, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - There's a draft Kings. - There's a draft Kings billboard right next to my house. I see it every day. And it's just like, I don't know, I'm not a fucking, you know, like a wilting flower. I just have people fucking gamble, but it's just like, I mean, it always strikes me. Like, how the fuck is that legal, dude? Like, how are they doing this? This is like we said before, you should have to go somewhere to do the shit. - Yeah. - It shouldn't be easy. Shouldn't be on your fucking phone. My friend's son, or my friend's daughter is dating this kid and all my friends are getting old. So it's, his daughter's and her boyfriend kind of live at the house essentially, is back home in my hometown. And my cousin, or my cousin, my homie was telling me, he's like, "Yeah, he's a cool kid. "We like him." But he's like, "Bro, he'd be on that fucking online gambling." I was like, "Yeah, it's a lot of those young kids." And he said, "One day, he won like $3,000." And then immediately you're like, "Yo, let's start playing a trip to the coast." It's like an Airbnb, let's do all this shit. And so everybody starts playing the trip and he kind of goes off by himself and blows the three grand, dude. - No! - Yeah, that's the best sign. - Yeah, he's like 21. So he has to come back like this, like, room full of adults and be like, "Hey, guys, "I just blew the three things." - Yeah, so about that. - Yeah, yeah, fuck, what was I, what the fuck? (laughs) - I hope that can be a lesson to him. - Yeah, I know that. - And it's like a magazine fan meeting. He's a little white kid. And I just kind of, I don't know why that made it funnier to me, but they're like, "The fuck, bro?" (laughs) - I mean, it's, yeah, our stance as a podcast is it should absolutely be legal, but you should have to go somewhere kind of CD to do it. That's what it should be. So this guy, this is a story primarily from the New Yorker. It came out in June, 2026 by Keith O'Brien. It's called America's Last Bookie Goes Down. - Yeah. - So it's about this guy. I don't know how to pronounce his name. I'm gonna guess, Pusley, Tim Pusley. He, as many bookies started out, love and the gamble. He didn't do it. He grew up in Auburn, Alabama. His dad worked at a sawmill. They didn't have a lot of extra money. So in high school, he started taking bets on football games. He sold parlay sheets for $5 a piece, and any kid who picked five games correctly with the point spread won. So it was a very hard thing to win. And yet, and yet these kids, he had these kids suckered in. They were still doing it. - He's like putting the game of five things into it, like, "Hey, buy the card, fill the card out, "give it back to me." - Just five bucks. Yeah, all your friends are doing it. - Yeah, yeah, damn, that's really smart. - Yeah, so he, according to Pusley, literally no one ever won, but they kept doing it. And so he was like, "This is a lesson to me. "This is a great line of work." - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - This is a good business. - That's really cool, 'cause that just like goes against, like, very obviously parlay bets have been around for a while, but that even goes against this traditional standard form of betting, is I'm just like, "Hey, if you want to put this much money down to the thing, "I'll get you this much back." It's like, "Buy this card for me for a set price." It's like selling scratchers and shit. It is kind of like selling scratchers, yeah, yeah. You get to decide the point spread and stuff, but it's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Well, yeah, fix thing. It's not, you have to worry about paying somebody out. Well, it's what you do, but it's not what you do. - Only if they win. - Only if they win, yeah, wow. - So, yeah, he, he starts making money doing this, and then he goes to college, and he gets a gig selling bookstore to door. - That why he's a bookie? - He is a bookie. - He's part of it. - He got a, he got a college, got a bookie degree. It's a guy that he's all for those, he was there. - Yeah. - Out of the community college. - It's like 20s or something, yeah. Um, so, uh, this is important, 'cause this is sort of another part of his business that I think is arguably less ethical than running out of sports books, which is he starts, he gets this job, like being a door to door book salesman, and it's one of those things where if you recruit other people, you get a percentage of their sales. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And so, he got really good at that. He got really good at recruiting other people to sell books, and he made quite a bit of money, and he ended up doing this for a while after college. Um, so, he, then he gets another job in sales, and like, you know, he's, he's trying to like climb the ladder, but while he's doing this, he lives in Birmingham, Alabama at this point, and he gets back into gambling, and he gets like really into poker. So, he meets all of these poker guys in Birmingham, Alabama, and-- - What time here was he born? Like, what are we looking at now? And is he, he's like, there's 20s? - Um, let's see. I think he's like in his 50s. I think this would have been like, their early 2000s. - Okay, okay, all right, all right. - It's wild, that's not, that's actually kind of a long time ago. That's, yeah, 20, 25 years ago. - His, his like, crimes are mostly, his peak year running the sports book that he gets caught for, was like 20, 22. - Okay, okay, all right. - So, it's like, yeah, and he was like in text sales for a while, I think it was like early 2000s and-- - Gotcha, okay. - And he, he gets a reputation for being like a real high stakes guy. He gets the nickname 10% Tim, 'cause he was given some loans. (laughing) He loaned you money, but you got a 10% interest, so they called him 10% Tim. He's going 2% Tim, I drank a lot of milk, but now-- (laughing) - I got strong bones. - Yeah, yeah, I guess you better pay me back, 'cause I got strong bones, buddy. I'm all hopped up on calcium. You don't want none of this shit, dude. (laughing) - So, he, he's like getting this reputation as 10% Tim, and this, and this, and this-- - It's 10% Tim is hilarious, right? - It's really good. He meets this guy named Tommy Hunt, who is like, he seems to like never, he's a cool customer, he's really good at poker, and he's clearly got money. And so he befriend Tim, 10% Tim, I'm just going to call him that the rest of the time. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 10% Tim befriend Tommy Hunt, and Hunt tells him that he has a business in Costa Rica that's like a web host for online sports books. - Yeah. Like you can't prosecute it, it's in Costa Rica. But this is like early enough in the internet that this is like an early version of internet. Like most bookies are still using the phone at this point. And so he's like, oh wow, cool. That's really interesting. - It's the wave of the future. - He says, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought a lot about Davies Coutino while I was-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - That's just the amount of Davies Coutinos. - I kept thinking about a stutter step today at work. 'Cause I was like, I did the dumb thing, where you're like, run up on your friend, kind of like, it's gonna add all of somebody. And I was like, I thought it's stutter step, and I was thinking like, man, the ball's to come light with an envelope and use a sports tournament, a sports store like, that's stutter step, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, come on, Davie. - It's, yeah, doomed from the beginning. - Yeah. - Wasn't he like the terminator or something? - Yeah, I wrote a Patrick, yeah. - Yeah, he was also fun. - How far he's fallen from the terminator? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I already gave up. - Living in our tent. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, go back and you're fuckin' home. - Oh my God, brutal. - Davies Coutino's so bad, yeah. Why doesn't he sell back, he sucks, you know what I mean? - Yeah, well, it's, you know, like Tony says, Scorpion and the Frog, he's gotta learn back in the game. It's in his nature, you know what I'm saying? Anyway, these guys, they make friends, and Pusely is like, I want you to set me up a website. I wanna start running my own sports book on this Costa Rica thing. And so he sets up a site, he calls Red 44, which the article gives a really, I don't, like why even give this? 'Cause it's such a bad explanation of the name. It says quote, it was easy to remember and to type into a browser. I guess, like, (laughs) Red 44, I guess. - I would say there's probably a near infinite number of letters and words that have the same effect on you. (laughs) - But anyway, so that's what he calls it. And he then, he combines his skills as a high school bookie and his skills as the selling recruiter in this book selling operation. And he basically sets up like a multi-level marketing for bookies, I think he gets, (laughs) If people who are using this website, it's basically like if DraftKings had a referral bonus and anybody who brought in, you gotta cut. - And has anybody ever called you and cut you off? The worst person you've ever met, yes. People call it said, we're not all the time. There's that one, awful, awful person. - This is seriously like, this is seriously like, every Davies, potato, I think, roped into this. So it's like, hey, I could make some money off of my friends addicted to gambling if I sign them up for this website and then ruin their life and then I get a cut. So that's how Red 44 is set up. And he gets all of these people who are, he calls them quote unquote, managers. 'Cause it's like a sports book. So it's like, I'm a manager, mom. I'm not, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm doing good. I'm a manager at this place in South of Costa Rica. How funny would it be to be like, this set up all your shit and put all your eggs in a Costa Rica basket? You're like, 'cause they can't, ex-ex-manate, or, uh, uh, uh. - Extra that. - And it just like, somebody's like, no, they can't. You're like, what? You're like, fuck. (laughing) - Oh, dammit. - Yeah. - It was believes, man. Like, I knew it was one of them shit. (laughing) - So they don't even have to be in Costa Rica. It's just those. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So they're just, they're still in Birmingham, Alabama. - Costa Rica. - Yeah. (laughing) - So he's, he's bringing people in, uh, into this, uh, website. He recruits a bunch of the guys that he gambled with in, um, in Birmingham. So, uh, there's this guy named Chris Donaldson. Who's a poker player? They knew, uh, Gary Rap is another one that he gets involved in this. - He, he, he, he used to rap. (laughing) Gary Rap, he would freestyle a lot of stuff. - What's up? - Yeah, he's a total ass, I didn't really get it. Oh, damn, I'm down my life savings. Man, my fucking last move was pretty brazen. (laughing) - There's like a bunch of names in this. Most of them are like normal, uh, the Matt Voorhees, Mark Gianquinto, they're like dealers, uh, some of them got involved because they lost money to other guys who were involved and then got, like, set up on the thing. It's like, it's so, see, this is the nasty part. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Running a sportsbook is running a sportsbook, but, like, this is some dirty business, for sure. - There was Mikey Rap, there was Frankie Manonos, he owed money to this guy, they all owe money, they all fucking hate each other. (laughing) - We do have two guys with nicknames who are, who are here, which is, one guy's known as Shug. - Okay, that's pretty cool. - And, and another guy is known as Skinny Chris, which is just like, of course. - Skinny Chris. - There's gotta be a Skinny Chris in the office. - There's gotta be a fat Chris around there somewhere too, like, no, Skinny Chris, yeah. - Fat Chris unnamed in the indictment, like, he's around. (laughing) - There was a guy on our job site that these kids started calling him. His name's Jacob, it's our call him gay, Jacob. He's not gay, but one of the kids goes, "Is there another Jacob?" He goes, "No, but if we get one, "he'll be straighter than him." (laughing) - That's pretty good. - That's like, you kids are crazy. (laughing) - So, yeah, it's just like a bunch of these poker guys and Birmingham, then they bring in two guys who one of whom becomes kind of a major deal later, which is Skinny Chris's friends with this guy, Chris Burdett, who's a former college baseball player. - That's fat Chris. - And then he has, that's fat Chris. - They don't come right out and tell you what Chris Burdett is. - They respect his baseball career. They're not calling that. - Yeah, he's breeding the fucking indictment. He's like, "I'm fat Chris." (laughing) - So, fat Chris has, like a shithead brother, named Nathan Burdett, who is a poker dealer. And he is, he's like the party guy. So, a big part of this organization that we're gonna talk about is they love to throw these big conferences for all of the like top level, like recruiters and people who are involved in the site. So, Nate Burdett's job is to like secure the party. You know, he gets all the drugs and the strippers and like, for these huge annual parties that they have for like the top, the top people. So anyway, this goes gangbusters. They have dozens of these like manager, mid-level, bookie people, thousands of people are betting with them. It gets like, they're making like millions of dollars. - Yeah. - So, the, according to the indictment in 2022, he had 300 bookies reporting new. I'm 25,000 people betting through the website. Millions of dollars divided between the, all the people every month. Tuesday was the biggest, busiest day of the week. Red 44 bookies collected their money on that day, following a regimented system that Pusely had developed. According to government figures compiled later, the operation was a $2 billion business. It was Pusely told me a money printing machine. - Damn. - So, yeah. - So, they're making money hand-over-fist. - We still gotta get a third Chris, even Fatter Chris. (laughing) - Yeah. Well, you know, Fatter Chris got back in the gym. We need a replacement. - Yeah, yeah, you need a new one. (laughing) - Now that Skinny Chris got regular Chris, we are looking to show the Fatter Chris make him see so. - So, like, a lot of the guys that get brought in early, they're just like poker players who feel like they're investing in a business. And then they kind of start to realize like, oh, this is like really crazy. And also like, we knew it was illegal, but this is like extra illegal. Like, this is illegal in so many. 'Cause another thing that's really crazy that I didn't know about is like a lot of crimes. The reason that these guys got caught was taxes. - Yeah, yeah. - And they crossed what they had to do when somebody doesn't have the money. 'Cause I, over the years I've seen people be like, oh, I wrote a sports book or whatever. And I just, you know, like, I've seen them just get ripped off. And it's like, unless you're willing to be that fucking guy, all someone has to do is go, yeah, no, I'm not gonna pay you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - If you're not willing to go out there and get it, like, you know, so I'm always kind of curious, do they have, or because it was online and the person to put the money up first? So they didn't worry about that. - Yeah, I'm not sure. I imagine they had to put the money up first 'cause it was online. They don't get into that in the article. And I feel like it probably was a situation where they had to put the money up first because a lot of the article was about like, whether this punishment was justified, given the fact that gambling is legal now. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 'Cause all the guys fucking have written for a cell in a week. - Right, it's very similar to drug war prosecutions. And so I think if they had hurt people, that would be, it would make the issue at hand a lot more clear. And, you know. So maybe they didn't talk about it for that reason, but probably-- - The aggravated bookmaking. - Well, this is what's so crazy to me about sort of the gray area of gambling is apparently there is, and I looked it up and I saw it. There is a tax form that bookies are required to fill out. It's a monthly tax form. It's been around for like, since the '50s. So even even acknowledging that this is illegal the IRS is like like, yeah, but where's our end? - Yeah, yeah. - It was all right. It was just so crazy to think about. - That is nuts. - Yeah, it's called Form 730, you can look it up, and if you run a book, any kind of book, you're supposed to submit this form every month and pay a 2% tax on the amount of money wagered on your book. - Wait, I can't believe you guys are doing this. Well, we're gonna have to get our end. Like, you know, we'll figure out how to play it here, but that's crazy. Also, 730 is prison slang for crazy, so that is crazy. - Oh, that is crazy. But yeah, it's just like, so none of these guys ever did it, 'cause they're like, yeah, I'm not telling the IRS, I run an illegal business. - Why have I done that? - Yeah, on the Penn State drug episode we just did, was I've seen somebody get that message from Vidmo, where it's like, Vidmo's like, "Hey, he looks like you're running a business." (laughs) So you can use Vidmo anymore, and you give us a tax ID number, and you know, how you respond to that's on you. (laughs) So, yeah, it's just really crazy that that, like, it speaks to how, like, the way that this quote unquote crime is viewed, where it's like, it's a very minor thing, and also something that is like so part of our culture, like that people have been doing forever, and like, making it illegal is a very, like, this is just such an open admittance that it doesn't stop it. - Yeah. - It's the same thing we're doing here in Texas, we're fucking, I don't even know what's legal and what's not right now, but the whole weird thing with Damn Patrick, and it's like, yeah, it's like, dude, we are so fucking far past that, everybody's stoned, either they get hired, it doesn't bother them. You know, it's like one of the good things that don't care, or they actually get high, but like what can-- - You can put the genie back in the bottle, like, you already sell them all that shit. It's ridiculous. But yeah, so, like I said, a lot of these guys that got in early, like they didn't realize how big this was gonna be, or that it was gonna be, like, so implicating in such a major way, because of, like, sports books, like, unless you run a huge one, it's like relatively minor, you know? - Yeah. - But they start to really worry when they go to a bunch of, like, the top inner circle guys go to Costa Rica, because Pusely asked them to go, and they have to bring $9,900 each to give to the guy who hosts the site, Tommy Hunt. - Oh, yeah. - They go, and Donaldson, one of the guys who was, sort of, early in this, says, quote, there's a guy in a wife-beater standing out front with a sawdoth shotgun. We told him we were here to see Tommy or whatever, and he let us into a room, which was red-44. Then an unidentified woman comes and just scoops up all the cash, and they hear, like, an electric money counter in the other room, and then they're just, like, so do we go? - We go, yeah. - They're just, like, let 'em go. And they're like, oh, this is, like, a capital C crime. Like, they're doing-- - Everybody's like, like, anyway, we're in sales jobs, like, for AT&T, they had this thing called Summit, where if you were, like, top salesman here, you made Summit, you went to fucking Vegas, thinking you all sorts of crazy shit. It sounds like those guys thought they were going to have that kind of trip, where they were like, all right, we're going to be dead. - Oh, I'm going to wear this shirt. - Yeah. - 'Cause they're awesome. (all laughing) - They're in a fucking Fomella, and this is a guy that I'm fucking sawdoth, and yeah, they're just giving, like, so is there, like, gonna be team building later? Like, what are we doing? I'm gonna fuck with you guys until you're getting out of this room, that's for sure. (all laughing) - Whatever you're doing, it's an alibi for this. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You're doing the rest of the time. (all laughing) - So, yeah, so they did, like, the tax stamp thing, Pusley's just, like, of course, I didn't do the tax stamp. It was, like, hey, I'm running an illegal business here. - So I didn't do it, but it ends up being a thing that, it ends up, like, a lot of these, like, classic Al Capone, that's the way they end up taking these guys down, is the IRS starts investigating them. So they generally, like, this is such a common thing, sports gambling, gambling in general, is prior to the widespread legalization, it was so common that, like, it's barely ever prosecuted, unless you're, like, unless it's related to, like, larger organized crime, or it's, like, a big operation. - Put the screws on you. - Right, so, but, basically, they arrest, they stop this lady on, like, a traffic stop, and she has drugs, this, like, unrelated woman. She's described in the article as, quote, "A straight-up white supremacy type person." (laughing) She's funny to me. I guess she had, like, a swastika tattoo, and, like, a confederate flag. - But a white supremacy type person is very funny. - Yeah, yeah. That is, like, a fucking straight-up, like, white supremacy type person out there. - That is how I would describe it, yeah, yeah. (laughing) - There was a fucking straight-up white supremacy person. (laughing) - It's really good. So, yeah, they found, like, oxies in her car or something, and she got questioned by the police, and I know, shocker, right? - Yeah, yeah. - And she gets questioned, and they're obviously, they're trying to, like, get up the chain, like, figure out, you know, who they can bust that's actually selling this stuff. So, they're, you know, they're trying to give her an out if she snitches, and she lays out a bunch of things, and then she's like, oh, by the way, one of the guys I buy from is a bookie, and starts telling them about that. - That's fucking Nazi-ass bitch. (laughing) - Yeah, man, a Nazi-and-a-snitch? I mean, I guess not-- - And not-a-snitch-ass, not, yeah. Doing oxies, why do you fucking, why do you, like-- - If any kind of, like, political extremist is gonna cooperate with the cops, it's gonna be a Nazi. - It's gonna be a fucking Nazi-ass, yeah, it's like, you know, like, guys, but yeah, we're a crime. - She's like, I'm gonna fuck her boys in blue, right? (laughing) - I'm like fucking blue. You tell me, I'll take that, I do back the blue. Also, if you, like, being fucking, that's something that got like white people, like, racist love oxies, and it's like, yeah, if you love being fucking white so much, why do you wanna keep nodding off? You think you'd want more hours of being white on the clock, but no, you're very happy to run away from it for fucking 15 minutes every hour. I don't know, you're just nodding out of your fucking subway job. - Where's your pride, man? Where's your white pride? - You're just a fucking math and be white for 72 hours in a row. (laughing) - That's a good point. Plug, made learn that shit, bro, be non-stop white. (laughing) - No break. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, white no breaks. (laughing) - So they, they tail this guy, the guy who they tail, who's a bookie of affiliate with bread 44, he's not named because they end up flipping him. - Yeah, yeah. - So they flip him and, Pusley's like not aware that he's been flipped, but other guys in the organization know that he has a drug charge, and so they're like, you gotta get rid of this guy and he won't do it. So he's loyal to this dude. - Yeah. - This is the thing we're like, none of them are willing to commit murder. - I think, I mean, yeah, I don't think they're, they're like middle age, I don't think they're, I don't think they're that hard. I think it was more like, you got, this guy can't be in the organization. - Oh, I got you. - Not like he got to kill him, but like, he can't be, now that he has a drug charge, you don't want this heat on you. - Got you, man. - And also like that this guy might be informing now. - So it shows back up, oh, what's up, man? - Yeah. - Hey, hey, back to talk about gambling, you know, I love it, you know, I love it. (laughing) - So Pusley is occupied at this time. He's live in large. He's also having some personal problems. His marriage has kind of fallen apart. Also, what a shocker in this situation. - Shit, man, yeah, this guy can't catch a break, man. (laughing) - But he's falling out. He buys this like big house in like this gated community, like the wealthiest part of Birmingham. He gets a Mercedes. And he is getting ready for his favorite thing, which is the annual Red 44 conference. That's like his favorite thing every year. - We love the party with the boys. - I love them if I can give them 10 grand again. (laughing) Dude, I can't get it. - This one's for real, guys, this is a real conference. This isn't like that. - No, this is like, he, this is like the fun. - They have the party homey and shit. - Yeah, yeah. - They have the party homey, Nathan Bernette. And they're so blatant about this stuff, like literally. So we're at about 2019 now, when this is all happening. - And so they're getting ready for this COVID right around the corner. Watch out, fellas. (laughing) - All addicted behaviors are not that low. This is great for you. - Yeah, if you can just hold on for one fucking second, you will sell the Oxies and Parley bets. You can fucking heart-consciber. (laughing) - So this is 2019. The 2018 one, like this is how blatant they are. They go to like a baseball game. - Or no, sorry, it was a Metz game. It's at City Field in 2018. They got like a shout out on the jumbo trot. Like, red 44 is here. - Oh no, no, no, no. - That's like Frank Lucas going to the boxing match in American Gangster. It's like, you just, yeah, you just signed your ass, duh. - They were so blatant about it. And yeah, so they're getting ready for this one in Chicago. He's, you know, Pusley is, He's so excited, he's, they're doing a river cruise, they're going out for steaks, they're going to rigley field, they have like matching T-shirts, like. - Oh, that's so sick, yeah. - Yeah. - And they're doing like, they're doing like seminars and stuff too, but it's like, it's the party, you know? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, dude, hell yeah. Chat enough, some ladies, you know what I'm saying? Ladies, they're like in the wrong middle age, dudes, you know what I'm saying? So, they're like super excited about it. That this time, partially because of this guy who's been busted where like a lot of people are kind of not feeling it. A lot of the OG guys, like the guys who were in Costa Rica, they're not, they're not coming to this anymore, 'cause they're like, I'll take my cut from this, but like, this doesn't seem-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The corporate culture at Ridge 44 is, it's been off lately, I'll tell you that. - Yeah, there's also some arguments about like, how the money is divided up, which like of course there is. That's also part of this job, is that everyone's mad about how the money is getting divided up. - I think the guy with the shotgun took more than he should have, and I just was not in a position to express my concerns down there in Costa Rica, but now that we're safely in our own country, I protest. - So, there's also sort of a change from it being just like, kind of a middle-aged poker player as a Birmingham to being like a real kind of wild scene, because the Nate Bordecai, the guy who's getting all the coke and stuff, his side of the business is getting really big. Like, he's bringing in a lot of people, and they like to party, and so it's just like, it's getting fucking crazy. - Yeah, at some point, I would say as far as attendees go, a triple-digit coke party is probably when it's going to start drawing some of us. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 70, 80 people doing coke. That's the-- - Yeah, on the jumbo-tron and matching t-shirts, yeah. That's gonna raise a few eyebrows. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You're making some waves at that point. - So, the guy who is informed, he's there, so the feds are getting all of this. - Yeah. - They got all of this. They have listing devices, recording devices in a pack of cigarettes, in a watch. Like, they got all of it. - Can you do, like, you can do blow if you have a wire on, right? - I don't know. I mean, I think if you're not a law enforcement official, like, you're just on a cop, he's just a guy. I think you can do coke. 'Cause then it's just a matter of like, where the cops gonna press charges against a coke while you're wearing a wire. Like, you're doing them a favor. Like, I think you can probably do coke like a little. - A little microphone, you see the guy like, hey, stop it. (laughing) - Yeah, no, I think you're probably not happy about it. (laughing) - It just takes to get up. - I think they probably discourage it. (laughing) - Cut it out. Cut it out. - Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, over. (laughing) - So, like, the guy, the snitch is feeding them information, but eventually they connect the snitch. They have the snitch connect, musely to like, an undercover agent who's gonna pretend that he wants to be a bookie. Like, that's how they're gonna get him. So, one thing they point out that I think is very funny, is so they get the Fed in there, and they meet at a Buffalo Wild Wings to talk about becoming a bookie, which like, hi, of course. That is where you'd go for that, I think. (laughing) Do you keep an eye on all the games, on all the TV? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's like, you're fucking lair, but it's just the Buffalo Wild Wings where you call the college games on. - So, they're at a Buffalo Wild Wings, and this is a part I think is funny. He, according to the Fed's, Pusely gives like exactly the same like pitch every time, which is like, he's a salesman, man. He's a salesman, he's just, he's got it down. So, he gives like, the canned spiel, that they like, no second hand is what he gives, and he gives it to this guy, and this guy sort of gets into the organization a little bit, and this is funny, is like, one of the guys who is a bookie with Red 44, says like, this guy, he seemed right in a lot of ways, like he was just kind of a middle, like your average white guy, which like is a lot of the bookies, but one thing that he was like, some doesn't seem right here, was that apparently he had a girlfriend who was way too hot for him, and they were all like, it doesn't seem right, it doesn't seem right, and they said, quote, her vibe was, quote, exotic, and his was cookie cutter, so he was like, he's with this like hot, like he's with fucking Penelope Cruz or something. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - He's like, he's just a dork, and they were like really kind of, you know, tell us about it, like they were just like very interested, and so some of the guys around Pusser, they were like, I don't know about this guy, but they get what they need. At this point, it is starting the 2022 football season with 25,000 clients, as I said. Again, this is the time where gambling is legal. - Yeah, 2022, yeah, shit's popping, 2022, yeah. - Shit is popping in other places, but like they're in Alabama, and they're also running this off shore, they're not doing it through US government-approved ways, and they're not paying taxes crucially, they're not paying taxes. - And those guys didn't fail to $7.34. - Exactly, that's what they get them for, which is so crazy. So, yeah, so while they're doing this, they're also trying to get up the ladder with Red 44, where they're like, we gotta get Tim Hunt, the guy who runs all the servers, 'cause there's other sports books that are on these websites in Costa Rica, so like they're trying to get him. So, they basically, they raid Pusley first. They like execute a full on raid, like classic disguises themselves as the power company, and like go to his door and stuff, and their plan, they wanted to keep Red 44 up after the raid so that they could get the host, get the guy who was hosting it. But at some point, Pusley sneaks away, and he calls Tommy Hunt, and he's like, we're compromised, shut it down. So, he shuts everything down. And the word goes out, as soon as the book you see that Red 44 is down, they're like, we got, we got got, like stuff is coming for us. So, they all get raided. In the end, the US Attorney charged 11 men for their involvement in Red 44, including Pusley, Donaldson, Rape, Jean Quinto, Voorhees, the two birdette brothers, and four others, quote, with a raft of charges that varied from man to man, excise tax evasion, money laundering, operating in a legal sports gambling enterprise. So, Tommy Hunt was not charged, the guy who owns the hosting stuff. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It is unclear, he might still be under investigation. Like, he might get charged, the IRS was, right? - He's got a guy on side with a shotgun. - Yeah, he's, we're not fucking with that. - Yeah, he goes for you guys. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - We might not be able to get him. - A shotgun guy, we can't fight shotgun. (laughs) - He's in the wind, he's gone. But yeah, so, he might, they might still be working on a case against him, but for now, he does not have charges. They, all of the defendants eventually pleaded guilty. So, the Pusley agreed to pay more than $13 million in restitution, penalties, and back taxes. So, he's giving quite a bit of this back. - Can you sue him? Can he be a victim? I'm like, I lost $45,000 to him on the All Star, we can't blame him. (laughs) - He should, but then, you know what that is? That's like, then your legal argument is your David's, David's, Katino. - He should know what we do with that. - I'm copying his Katino defense. - The judge, the judge, like, bangs the gavel and is like, get back in your hole. - Get back in your hole, there. (laughs) But, yeah, so this is obviously still like a huge business. There's still plenty of, you know, off the books, books, so to speak. - It's actually gotten bigger since legalized gambling has taken over. And I think it sort of is like, it's a little bit like drug cases where it's like, why is Draft King's allowed to do this? - Like, why can't I, I'm not putting it on everyone's phone. Like, I'm trying to do it in a way that isn't fucking evil. I'm not hiring Kevin Hart to tell people, this is a good idea. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, man. The amount of people that, yeah, the amount of celebrities, I'm like, I did a very few celebrities, I have like, respect for it. I don't really, I'm not like, shocked by any of that. - So like, Kevin Hart was a weird one. He was just like, you're, like, you're like, I'm like, I did you have to do that? - Right, well, I think it's gotta be people with gambling problems. Who do those, right? 'Cause it's like, I didn't think about that. - They, like, 'cause why does Kevin Hart need the money? - He made the short bet. (laughs) That's all right, sorry, sorry. My bad job. - It's all shorts with him, yeah. I had a script called "The Big Sh*t" and short, if I can help you, Adam and K.P. me too, and it's not something different, but same name. - So these guys are all like, they're all kind of making the same arguments that I just made of like, why me? Why, like, if this is taxes, like, why couldn't it have been handled in civil court? - Yeah. - And I think the argument is like, we weren't breaking kneecaps. Like, we were-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, dude, yeah, that's, it's just a matter of like, I guess the, you know, trafficking's paid off the right people. - Yeah. - You know, like, ultimately they bought in, I guess, you know? - Right, they have the right, like, lobbyists and lawyers, and, you know, and all the like, kalshi stuff that's followed is just fucking crazy. Why aren't those people in jail? - Yeah, yeah. - That's insane. - Yeah. - I don't understand the legal argument behind it at all. Like, it's baffling to me. And again, like, we're not fucking prudes about gambling. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what's happening there is just bad, dude. - Right. - I saw there was this thing that data whites are going with side projects. It's just that slap game where it's just two people stand there and-- - Oh, the competitive slap. - That's the fucking face. - Yeah. - Yeah, and I just really, I saw real, and I was like, this sucks, man. We shouldn't let a fucking, like, a multi-hundred millionaire, do a thing where poor people are slapping each other and fucking 10 grand. - It's, it's bump fights. He's doing bump fights. - It's bump fights, yeah. And some guy was like, and the comments was like, oh, this is Facebook, so he won, go and go and go. Oh, look, it's the moral arbiter of what's right and what's wrong. I was like, I didn't think it was right or wrong. I said it was bad, bro. Like, it's collectively bad for society that this is being allowed to happen. Like, you know-- - Also like-- - Yeah, I'm allowed to think things are wrong. - Yeah, I was like, yeah, man. I was like, it's legal. We're watching the video, they won. I'm saying it's bad. Like, I have no fucking power in this situation. - Exactly, like, I think this will have negative consequences. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I think. - Yeah, that's what I think. - Yeah, that's the thing with the phone gambling and stuff, it's like, it's not, you know, it's like, oh, well, do you not do XYZ? It's like, it's not that I don't do it. It's that I, I can't do it instantly on my phone. - It's this other thing, my phone isn't also a cigarette. - Yeah, the people that are making money off this, it's like, you're gonna see, like, yeah, for some people, it's just, it'll be a couple bad bets. I'm like, oh, fuck, I took a bad last night. But there's gonna be that fringe society where the guy who ruins his fucking life on it. And I know this is like a new thing, but as I've gotten older, like anybody who, anybody who's criticism about the world is the world is too nice. I hate guys like that, we're like, oh, we coddle people too much or people aren't too, everybody's too friendly these days. Like, first of all, no one, no, they're not. Look outside, this is the world's holder right now. - Yeah, no one will, no one will stop an old man from getting a close to the face. - The world is not that nice. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, people have this idea of like, oh, it's everybody's too soft these days. Those kind of guys, where it's like, you think the world is fucking soft right now? - Right. - It's insane to me, but it's like, yeah, it's like, those guys, like, it's guys on the fringes who are gonna, you know, blow their fucking mortgage, loosen the fucking house, put their kids college money in there. It's these guys that are gonna do it, it's not gonna be every guy, but that should be a fucking enough, man. In the fact that somebody's profiting off that is insane. - Yeah, I mean, there's like studies about the rate of bankruptcy and the rate of domestic violence after phone sports gambling becomes legal. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - They go up, like, you know, it's not, yeah, like you said, it's, I think the majority of people can do it responsibly, but there are a lot of people whose lives it's gonna ruin for no reason to make Kevin Hart and his cronies more money, like-- - More money, yeah. To be 26 years old right now, you're in your fucking, you're upside down in leverage payments on the fucking truck that you owe me. You're the truck at you and your wife. She found out you just blew 800 bucks on fucking trafficking, and she's yelling at you, and you're just not responding and you're just vaping. Like, that's, that's fucking happening somewhere. - I do think, I wonder about younger women, 'cause like, I feel like our age group, like, it's not as prevalent just because like, by the time this all came out, like, we had like, apartments and electric bills and stuff. - But, like, I feel like, like, I was very relieved when I was starting to date my boyfriend, and I learned that he doesn't watch sports, not because I, not because I like watching sports, but I was like, oh good, he's not on DraftKings. - That like, okay, this is a thing I don't have to worry about with this person, where like, you know, and he loves the gamble, but like-- - I'm still on DraftKings, I'm making horrible decisions. I don't watch sports, you know? - Right, exactly. No, I'll find a way, I'm just gambling randomly. But it's like, yeah, it's not a gambling thing. He likes to gamble, he wants to go to the casino, and we're like, you know what, but it's like, he's not on his fucking phone losing his life savings. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the ability for something to be on your phone, I fucking, I'll find myself, like, just scrolling Instagram reels. He doesn't even be like, I really should stop this, I've got two hours to myself tonight to do laundry to make food, and I'll just fucking, yeah, and I'll just be off work tired, I'm scrolling, I haven't my phone died in my hand before, and I've been like, fucking, thank God. And I didn't, like, which isn't like a proud moment, but like, I can only imagine. - No, sometimes you can't tell yourself away, like, it is really addictive. - And I can imagine the thing that was keeping me on them on the fucker was, you know, the thrill of winning my synapses firing, because, hey, I have a latent gambling addiction, I didn't fucking know about, like, thank Christ, I don't have the fucking deal with that. - Yeah, it's bleak. And a funny thing about this guy's defense is like, I, you know, I think he would probably say, like, what we were doing is more moral than draft kings as well. But his complain is also that he's like, dude, I would be so much better at doing this than draft kings is. (laughs) I am so good at this, and I'm the criminal, just because I ran a successful gambling website, like, - What they're doing is fucking criminal, just in the sense that it's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And he's like, he's like, he says, my site could like, outperform these companies at scale, like, there isn't money. He's like, I could soak these gamblers for even more, which is really funny. This is also very funny to me in like a mean way. So, the, the bookies who were indicted have all kind of turned against each other a little bit, and like, you know, and a lot of them are very unhappy with people. - If there's no honor among those guys, then who is there honor among Jesus? (laughs) - So one of them said that I think it was really funny about him being disappointed and impusely. He said, quote, I thought Tim was somebody that cared, cared about me. (laughs) He's like, scorpion in the frog, my brother. No. That's dumb of you. - He cared about me. (laughs) Specifically, I thought I could care about me. - I don't have a long list of people that care about me. I put Pusley on that list. What was I thinking? My mom, my dad, Pusley. That was him, that's who I am. - I thought he was, I thought that guy who recruited me for his gambling downline, paired about me. - Sure, I took me to Costa Rica. And I got a good pull, Tommy. I had to give a guy $9,9900. But like, we hung out at the airport bar. - Right. He was a sick dude. - I was on the jumbo trun with him. (laughs) This is the guy who was, that was a social circle, man. He's like, yeah, those bad poor guy. So, some of them say like, it was kind of a relief to get caught 'cause they were already like, they knew it was fucked up and it was heading down and they're like, at least like, it's over the consequences, I can deal with them. That guy, Napardette, who was like the degenerate. (laughs) He, so he actually ended up like, this almost broke, he credits getting caught when he did for saving his marriage 'cause like, his wife was gonna leave him. And he, so he ended up after the indictment's getting sober and he works with a nonprofit, dealing with sports gambling. So like, trying to help people who are, - There you go, that's what's up. - So he kind of, he seems like he kind of turned it around which is nice. And then, this is the last thing I have that I think is really fascinating is, Pusely is like, he's still very defensive about what he did, but he also, so before he got caught, he was in therapy. I think 'cause he had like, his marriage break up and stuff. - Yeah. - And he said, quote, he came to realize that no healthy person is ever going to be a bookie. And like, a few months before he got rated, he actually had met the requirements and done the training to become a licensed therapist himself. So he was like, becoming a therapist. And so now he has his own practice. So he's on the other side of this sentence and everything. And he's a practicing therapist. Can you imagine having this guy as your therapist? Can you find out that he was like the biggest bookie like prosecution in like Alabama history or whatever? - I'm a feeling, he would do like kind of like, I'm not saying he wouldn't give good advice, but it feels like it might be like, I don't know, like a more aggressive device than someone would need. Where he's like, yeah, this guy, my husband, real prick, you caught there, you fucking, you tell I got a fuck off, marching there and more, and put your finger in his chest and say, you're not a fucking, who do you think you are? I am, you know what I am? I'm very curious, or like what is I mean, I guess maybe he'd be a good therapist for somebody with a gambling addiction or he might be the worst therapist. I'm not sure. But yeah. He's not going to be able to heal me. Yeah, I would just say odds wise. I'll say seven to one. I got you. Yeah. So that's the story. Again, most of this stuff comes from an article by Keith O'Brien in the New Yorker in June, 2026. That is the story of Tim Pusley. Wow, that was good. You can hire him to be your therapist now. So this was a real tale. I think this is a real fun one. But yeah, it is an interesting question of how much, like, what did these guys really do wrong going by the standard of what we have decided in society is wrong? Like, I think they did some stuff that's fucked up, but, like, as far as, yeah, what constitutes a crime given the stuff that we're allowing? I don't know. I'm as legal now, it seems like. I'm as legal. They did a crime that is legal. So it's interesting that this feels like this feels like something that, like, I feel like the tape brothers were doing shit like this. You know, it just seems like people were just doing and getting away with not just this, but, like, just these levels of, like, crazy financial crime. If you're, like, right now in 2026, you're going to get trouble for that, you know. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of stuff we've just retroactively decided. Like, I guess that's fine. Like, I wonder if these guys took out a PPP loan. Yeah. Totally possible. Totally possible. Seems like everybody did it but us. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, that's my biggest regret. Well, guys, thank you. That was a banger. You been having some real heaters lately. I hope you guys enjoyed it at home. I feel like what you hear, I have another podcast. It's called Slow Pitch. We're being my friend Nick Severino. He wants, it's a baseball comedy podcast and he pitches me on being a baseball fan. It's really fun. If you're a baseball fan, listen to it. I think I can get a big kick out of it. Nick is a hilarious guy. It knows everything about baseball. We have a really good time with that show. So that's going to be that. Kathy, got anything for us? I have another podcast called What a Time to Be Alive. It's about stupid news stories. It comes out every Monday. Yeah. And I'm Kath Burberdoro on social media. So thanks for listening, everybody. Yeah, guys, thank you so much for listening. And remember, if you liked what you heard, you can also check out our Patreon with Patreon.com/Lightsheet and Steel. You can access two ad free episodes, two more episodes every month, and access to our back catalog of bonus episodes, which is substantial and needs to be considered. So I hope you guys go check that out. Other than that, man, have fun. Be safe. Be smart. Be off your phone. Don't fucking gamble on your shit away. And don't let people punch old men on the subway. Don't let people punch old men on the subway. Get on the subway and look for it. And tag it out. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Spotted old guy puncher before he punches and pre into the strike. Yeah. Yeah. Don't do that. Actually, don't do that. It leads me to it. Don't say we said to do that. All right, guys. Love you guys. Be safe. Be smart. But above all, don't get caught. Don't get caught. See you next time. [BLANK_AUDIO]