Tig Notaro on Grief, Comedy, and Life After Loss

This episode is brought to you by Amazon. I love this time of year. There's a certain magic to the season, the music, the traditions, the gathering over incredible food. But when it comes to gift giving, I am very intentional. It's never about excess or extravagance. It's about thoughtfulness. I want to give things that carry genuine meaning and feel personal. And because of that, I have to start planning early, like right now, early. Thankfully, Amazon is here for the early shoppers with a huge range of gifts for every passion and price point. Get a head start on holiday gifting with Amazon's low prices. Shop now at amazon.com slash holiday. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. Black Friday is happening now at The Home Depot and they've got just the tree for your style, space, and budget. Make the holidays merry and bright with artificial trees starting at $49. Then make it your own with ornaments and trimmings for every holiday style. Find your perfect tree at the number one Christmas tree retailer and get low prices guaranteed on all your festive favorites at The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. Visit homedepot.com slash price match for details. When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it. The one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand and on the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is The Goop Podcast. Bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers. Here to start conversations. Because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to The Goop Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. And today I'm sitting down with a comedian, writer, and filmmaker who has a rare ability to hold humor and heartbreak at the same time. We talk about her remarkable Oscar-nominated documentary, Come See Me in the Good Light, which is a portrait of the amazing poet Andrea Gibson and the experience of bearing witness to a life at its end. We discuss how some of life's darkest moments can also be the funniest, the meaning of true friendship, and how loss has a way of opening us up into more of who we are. Tig Notaro. Hi. Hi. I'm so excited to be talking to you. Same. How's life? Life is good. It's funny, I would hear people talk about award season and I was like, what is that? Like I've never even, not in my world. And so I've been living a life that I am not used to going to these parties and luncheons. And so, it's been busy. But it's, it's, yeah, I think it's something that is not quite fathomable unless you go through it and like the relentlessness of it and how many hours and it's pretty intense. It's pretty crazy. I know. I heard from a friend of mine in Colorado and I hadn't talked to in a while and I said, can I try you back in like two weeks? I'm sure she was like, what? She's like a yoga instructor. She's like, fuck you, dude. This is going to your head. Yeah. Yeah. No, but it's true. I'll see you there. I'm going to present. So. Oh, amazing. I'll come find you. Present to me, please. I mean, so yeah, let's start talking about it because, well, I do want to, if it's okay, I would love to start just with some context around you having grown up in Mississippi and kind of your journey through queerness into this documentary because I found, you know, there are so many amazing parallels between you and Andrea. Like I, right? I mean, that's not a total projection. No, I mean, when I met Andrea, we were both kind of getting our bearings in our careers. Let me just ground everybody in the fact that you produce this incredibly beautiful, unbelievably tragic, but also hopeful documentary about Andrea Gibson, who was our Poet Laureate, right? And of Colorado. Mm-hmm. And taking us through the journey through the end of her life, essentially, and her, but just before her death from ovarian cancer. Mm-hmm. So I wanted to well, we can start really with the parallels between you guys, I think, and what, how did this idea come to life? Well, when Andrea was going through, I mean, obviously, you never know how long somebody's going to be around when they have stage four ovarian, aggressive stage four ovarian cancer, but it ended up being the final year of Andrea's life. And there was a lot, obviously, going on, and so different friends were kind of trying to handle different parts of their life. And I was on the phone with our mutual friend, Steph Willen, who I had met at the same time I met Andrea in like 2001. And we were working on, you know, how do we help Andrea with their podcast and how to edit, produce, what to do with this? Because Steph edits, and I've been in podcastings for an unusually long time. And so in that conversation, Steph said, you know, I feel like Andrea's life right now would make a really great documentary. And it knocked me over like you would not believe. And I just, I was like, I can't believe I didn't think about this. And I worked so quickly. I truly got off the phone. And I had one moment where I thought, do I call my agents? And do I? And then I was like, you know what? No, because then it's going to be like, let me get you to meet this person. Let me, let's get on with Zoom. Let's set a call next week. And then I was just like, and I just thought, I have so much inside of me. I can see this. I know this person. And I am a big documentary fan. And so I reached out to friends of mine and financiers. And I just, I mean, it happened so, so quickly. And when I first reached out to the director, Ryan White, and his producing partner, Jessica Hargrave, I was like, I said, because they had said, it'd be fun to do a, work together and maybe do a funny documentary. And so I call them with this. And I'm like, you know, this friend of mine of 25 years is, is a, is a non-binary poet with stage four ovarian cancer. And they were like, oh, okay. Hmm. And, but I was, I know I was like, but truly I said, I'll send you some information and you're either going to be in or not. And so I sent them some stuff and they, they reached out in three days and they were like, oh my God, we are buying plane tickets next week. And so, and they also said, we can't pitch this to anybody because it's not a sparkly Hollywood idea. And they said, so we just have, we have to raise money independently and hope that we make the most beautiful film possible. And I feel like that's exactly what we did. You sure did. So tell me about how you and Andrea became friends. Did you feel a kindred, a kindred spirit with them immediately when you met in 2001? I, I, Andrea was part of this political and social activist group called Vox Feminista in Boulder. And I, I've lived in Colorado off and on over the years. And I was backstage because another friend of mine was performing in Vox Feminista. We were at a theater called Old Main at the CU Boulder campus where they were, where Vox was performing. And, and our mutual friend, another mutual friend said, oh, this is Andrea Gibson. Andrea is a poet. And I remember being so confused because I'll be honest, I've never run around in poetry circles. And just looking at Andrea, I was thinking, God, this looks like a rock star. That was more of the world I was used to was hanging out with musicians and comedians and whatever. So I was like, wow, that's so fascinating. And then Andrea went on stage that night, annihilated the audience. Like I, like made poetry look, which it is, it's so cool, but look, so cool on a whole other level. People were crying, laughing, and it just confirmed that, yeah, this is a rock star. But I felt like I knew this person just based on circles I would run in. I felt like I know you. And Andrea was truly one of the funniest people I knew and such a great laugh hang. I always describe Andrea as somebody that everything was so precious to Andrea, and then nothing was too precious to laugh about. Was this like a pre-cancer diagnosis things were precious? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And even up until Andrea's death, everything was so precious. But also, man, could you have an inappropriate laugh with Andrea? Yeah. I mean, God, in the documentary when they're sitting at the table and they're like playing the voice message around like, we're going to be finger fucking. No, it was thumbing, Gwyneth. Sorry, thumbing. But then also, okay, can I just tell you, that is a very, that's so early in the documentary. And the director Ryan talks about how it usually takes a beat for a documentary subject to ease in to being themselves. And that discussion and that moment was not only one of my favorite moments in that film, but maybe of anything I've ever seen, because it's so illustrates the fluidity of like going from the deepest belly laugh to when they go into the aging app, where Meg and Meg, Andrea's wife, where they see themselves old, and realize that they won't ever see each other in that way. And it's so devastating. It's so devastating. But watching them go through it, I was so struck by how they, like, what was so fascinating to watch was when the bad news would drop, and how they would sit there and sort of body the news, and of course, have a very human reaction, be overwhelmed, angry, even like, and then how quickly they would, sort of settle into this beautiful, wide perspective about life and the preciousness of life and the gratitude. I found it so, so deeply inspiring how they were able to do that, you know, so quickly recover almost from like, the most devastating news you could ever see, and how they were able to transmute it very quickly, seemingly. In the documentary into. So what was that? What was that like to witness? Is that right? Was it more protracted in real life? Like, what did that mean to you? Well, I mean, having had cancer myself, I mean, I had several health issues going on simultaneously. Which you chronicled in your amazing documentary, which I loved. Thanks. You had a crazy intestinal thing. You had a double mastectomy. I had pneumonia. Yeah, I had pneumonia in the middle of it all. The intestinal disease was very deadly. And so I was dealing with all three. Also having just lost my mother who tripped in her head and died. It was, it was a very hard, hard, confusing time. But watch it. It's so interesting, because Andrea had told me that what I went through was inspiring to them. Yeah. And I think it's that part of, like, it's hard to take that in, because I'm watching somebody do something I don't think I could do. I've been at my parents' deathbeds. I've been with my cousin. I was with Andrea. It's one of the most, it was, it's like, when people would tell me I was brave. Yeah. Seeing somebody in their final days. And going towards what we're all headed towards is bravery beyond comprehension. But seeing Andrea process this news over and over. And it wasn't toxic positivity. It wasn't, there was nothing false about it. You know, this is somebody who dealt with suicidal ideation previously, who thought they didn't want to be. And was oftentimes writing their poetry in a way of, like, this is what I want to be. This is where I want to land. And I think that getting this diagnosis, it's the same as what I went through in that it really wakes you up. And that's exactly, it's like, you know, it's like, I don't know. It finally met up in real time of, I don't want to, I don't want to die. And I do feel these, all of these ways that I'm writing, and I'm speaking about Andrea, of course, but it was, it was wild to, and also in the documentary and in real life that blows me away about Andrea that I found so inspiring and telling was Andrea got up and worked out every day. When they were inching towards the end, worked out every day. Did they say anything about that shift in perspective, specifically from suicidal ideation to when faced with actual death? Like, did it, did it reframe for them their depression or the way that they had thought about their life? Was that fundamentally changed? I think everything just kind of goes away. It's all of those kind of hangups, even down to, as, as, as Andrea spoke about in the documentary, their gender. Yeah. They identified as non-binary, but when they got diagnosed, no longer had any connection to how somebody, I've been in interviews where people will write me and, or tag me on something and be so upset. That if I'm talking to somebody that calls Andrea, she or her, and I don't correct them, I'm like, watch the doc, the documentary or, or, or unfortunately you didn't meet Andrea, but this is not a hangup of Andrea's. And so I'd be doing my friend a disservice. They, Andrea would be so upset if anybody was corrected about anything like that. So all of that, you just kind of, it just goes away. Right. Was it something that she had been more sort of more strident about before? I think so. I think it's. Or whoops, I said she, see, I mean. It just doesn't even matter. I think all the time about on September 11th, when I, I read about. About after the buildings were hit and there were documents from the twin towers that slowly drifted to as far as New Jersey and that struck me so much because I thought there was a boss riding somebody's ass about those papers. This has to be in, this has to be this way. There's so much importance put on it. And as I watched the papers slowly. Float to New Jersey. It's like, was it really that important? Like it just, it all goes away. Do you feel changed like forever changed by having walked through this path with, with them? Yeah. And I, as I mentioned, like, I just got chills all through my body, but there it's a whole other conversation, but Andrea's last few days. I witnessed something so extraordinary that I truly kept saying to Stephanie, my, to my wife, Stephanie, after leaving that house, I was like, I don't even understand how I'm going to return to Los Angeles and exit the one-on-one onto Melrose. And go home and join back into my life. I don't even understand how that can happen. And it was, it was painful, but it was also one of the most beautiful. things with a lot of moving pieces a lot of people from andrea's life and past and complicated relationships that had to sort out in about three days it's funny because the the film ends in this beautiful moment of sunset where you know it's implicit that she's going to die she knows she's going to die but the the film ends and it was still quite a few months right until her death what was the decision to not to stop it there well andrea you know when when andrea met ryan and jess when when they flew out to colorado andrea said i guess i'm gonna be with you when i die and that was kind of the thought we just didn't know we thought we were going to film till the end and as ryan and our incredible editor bernice were looking through the footage the thought came up you know i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die do we really need to see our hero die and so they cut the film without telling andrea and meg and submitted it to sundance because they just thought maybe we could just end this on a hopeful uplifting note and then andrea could see the movie and yeah we didn't tell andrea or meg that we were submitting in case we didn't get in and then not only did we get in but we ended up winning the sundance film festival like even out of scripted films and it was so wild because i've been to sundance like five times before and i've gone to all the parties the events all the screenings the panels it's non-stop you know and when we went for this first of all andrea and meg were just floored because they oh were they able to go yeah yeah and but only until like the last day or two did we find out because andrea's lungs were full of tumors and struggling to go up and down stairs and we had all rented an airbnb this big house it was like sarah varellas and glennon and abby and my wife was there andrea and meg were like we're actually coming and they drove out from toronto and we were like oh my god like and we called it that that weekend snuggle down because we weren't going to any of the parties or events we were spending time with andrea and meg when we were having tea by the fire and laughing so hard and just having the most extraordinary time and we of course went to the premiere which was off the charts so emotional the the humor hit like a will ferrell movie like it was so we felt like wow that went so well and but we had no gauge of how the movie was going like at the festival and then we just went our separate ways and i got a call i was getting texts from andrea and meg can you get on a call can you call hey have you heard the new i was like i called stephanie i was like oh god i'm so scared to i was scared something happened to andrea right and so i called and andrea and meg answered on speakerphone and i was so emotional i was so scared to hear bad news and they said did you hear and i was like hear what and they said we won and i was like won what and they the sun dance what are you talking about i was so confused so confused because there was actually this time a year a little over a year ago with the new administration coming in of like streamers pushing back on lgbtq stories and so we didn't have huge expectations so we really did not expect to get as far as we got it doesn't surprise me it really it really doesn't because you know there's it's it's a perfect documentary and there's so much restraint and the kind of the emotional thread through it it's so it's like you're on tender hooks the whole time and then it's so emotional when they're able to go back on stage for what i assume really was the final time and deliver that just rocket ship of a performance i was bawling bawling yeah try being there i can't i know i mean but here's the good news gwyneth when we were shooting that night in denver i told well not that night but leading up to it i said to ryan the director i said you know what because i've directed a bunch of comedy specials and i said we already have all these cameras set up why don't we just shoot this as a standalone and edit it as andrea's final concert and so we have that yeah so we're gonna be we have very big plans for this that are very exciting that we'll we'll let people know but i'm just thrilled to be able to that people will be able to see andrea's final performance oh my god i'm crying thinking about that you're gonna cry when you see it it's so beautiful oh my god when is that gonna come out well i can't really say because it's your you're full of secrets today tig really i have so many secrets but girl i will fill you in after our session here okay can i just tell you a funny side note though yeah our stephanie and i brought our two sons out who were seven at the time because you opened for her yeah andrea was scared because you know you have to book a theater months in advance and so andrea was like i don't know if i'm i literally don't know if i'm gonna be alive when this happens and that's also in the documentary when andrea says but i'm not gonna feel too bad about it if i have to cancel but it was more so if andrea was alive and could perform i was asked to open and if if andrea didn't have the energy to do a full performance could i kind of pick up some of the slack right and and so yeah i i flew out to open for andrea and brought stephanie and our two sons who were seven and they're sitting through it's actually two performances that will be cut into one which is how most specials are done and our sons they're sitting there listening to every topic that you could ever this is a very socially politically active person you know and they're sitting there and and you know they were told to behave and sit and and they were taking it all in it was a long night i opened andrea went on stage there was hanging out backstage this is two nights in a row and they were so well behaved and i i went up to them and i said guys i am so proud of you for i mean i know this was this was a lot in two nights and my son max said well i'm honest mom did promise us each ten dollars a show if we behaved ours and i laughed so hard but i was still like it's still impressive because it's it's a long night of poetry and backstage hangs for seven years old i mean that's incredible yeah yeah and i don't know if i would have done that for ten dollars at that age but so that's well this episode is brought to you by amazon i love this time of year there's a certain magic to the season the music the traditions the gathering over incredible food but when it comes to gift giving i am very intentional it's never about excess or extravagance it's about thoughtfulness i want to give things that carry genuine meaning and feel personal and because of that i have to start planning early like right now early thankfully amazon is here for the early shoppers with a huge range of gifts for every passion and price point get a head start on holiday gifting with amazon's low prices shop now at amazon.com slash holiday this episode is brought to you by boar's head you know what i love about football season it's the football but also the football watching food and nothing hits like a boar's head sandwich when i'm watching a game really any game day sandwich better with boar's head philly cheesesteak layer up buttery slider rolls with boar's head london broil roast beef american white cheese and picante provolone delicious then add roasted onions peppers and boar's head pubs style horseradish sauce. 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I think I was diagnosed, well, not I think, I know for sure. I was diagnosed on July 25th. And then I went on stage on August 3rd. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it was a few days. But still, very close. Listen, I was devastated. I was definitely ill from all of my diseases. And so it wasn't, it wasn't, I mean, my pant, I had to like, use my, my finger to hook on my belt loop. I was, I was, I had lost nearly 20 pounds. It was, it was a rough time. And so, again, like, Andrea was able to so quickly go from sort of shock. To metabolized. But you seem to be kind of in that same vein, but also working it out. Like, how did you, how did you decide, okay, I've just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I need a bilateral mastectomy. I'm going to a comedy club. Well, I had called Flanagan, the owner of Largo here in Los Angeles. And I said, hey, and he knew everything that I had gone through, including also, I went through a breakup. This was all in a four month period. So I was feeling very much like I've lost everything, which of course I hadn't. I still had family and friends and, you know, I was working, but had health insurance. So I know I had, I still had things that people don't, but it felt like I had lost everything. And so I was just so confused and devastated. And I called him and I said, hey, I'm going to go to a comedy club. And I said, hey, that was my final blow was after pneumonia, the C diff, the intestinal disease, pneumonia, my mother dying. Then I got the cancer diagnosis and my breakup, all of that. And I said, I can't, I don't think I can do my show that was already on the books. And he said, why don't we keep it on the books? And you can cancel one second before you walk on stage. And I was thinking like, this guy is not hearing me. And I had known him for a long time. I have a monthly show there, you know, and I'm thinking, why would I want to go on stage? And then I had those days before my diagnosis to leading up to the show. And then I thought, man, I love doing standup comedy. What? And I had seen how quickly life, slips away. You know, I saw my mother go. I saw my health go. I saw my, my relationship go. And I just thought, what if I never get to perform again? So I thought I'm going to keep it on the books. And I started writing like crazy. I was, and I am not a comedian that writes things down. I just get an idea and I'm like, oh, that'll be funny. I'll just talk that through. I'm going to go on stage and see what I can come up with. With this, I was like bringing my laptop everywhere. I was taking notes. I was like, oh my, I was so inspired. And then I thought, well, I'm going to try this out. So right before my biggest hurdle was how was I going to get into this material? And so I was taking a shower before the show. And this thought, thankfully, ran through my mind. I was like, what if I went on stage? Like I, I was delivering this news in the same tone as like, hey, good evening. Are there any birthdays tonight? Everyone having a good time? And, and it made me laugh maniacally. And I was like, oh my God, I can't do that. That's so crazy. And then I thought that that's going to seem disrespectful to people that have cancer. And then I was like, wait, I have cancer. I was like, this is me. I, I, this, this is, I, I'm going to do it. And so that's how I got into it. I walked out. I was like, good evening. Hi, how's everyone doing? I have cancer. How are you? And so that, that's what happened. Oh my God. What's, but what's so like, of course it's, I mean, you always, you have such a like hyper unique. Tone and, but what's so amazing about that. It's like the way that you're able to rattle people's mind and hearts at the same time. And like, I mean, I was watching that going, what am I supposed to think and feel right now? And laughing and like, also, you know, but that's the best is like, and it took the audience a while because people were stunned and confused and other people were laughing, thinking this is, Tig's doing a funny bit right now. And then once it got real and they understood all of these things really did just happen. And, and then people were also crying in the audience. It was, it was like nothing I had ever obviously experienced. I still have never experienced again and probably won't hopefully. Oh my God. No, no, no. Let's be, let's be done with that. Yeah. We're done with that. Yeah. But did you, was it incredibly healing? Like, were you sort of like, I don't know what I'm doing here, but I, but it feels really good. Like what was, what was it like to go through that as you were taught as you were doing your set? Well, that's the exciting, scary thing about comedy. It is, especially because I hadn't tried it out on stage before I was, it's not like I want to open mics and try it out. I have cancer. So, that's the fun is the risk is that it's like, this has to either pay off or I'm going to bomb in front of a sold out venue and then just go away and die quietly. And that'll be my last performance. People will be like, yeah, I was there. It was awkward, but you're kind of, you're the master of the awkward. It's like you, you can kind of just ride, that edge in a way that I don't know. Nobody else can. I mean, it's, it's very masterful. We have my mother to thank for that, but yeah, I, I love awkwardness. I love examining a situation and being like, I don't know what's happening either. Like, let's, let's go in here. So I knew it, you know, like any comedy show, it could go either way. And I really, I didn't know, but I remember, I remember at one point I thought, wow, these people are totally with me and I couldn't believe it. And this guy stood up. I don't know if he stood up, but I might be making it more dramatic than it is, but he yelled out and he said, this is fucking incredible. And like yelled, like, don't stop. And the whole place erupted into like, yeah. And I was like, oh my God, I got, it's working. And in a weird, twist, the producer of Andrea's documentary, Jessica Hargrave, she was the road manager, tour manager of one of Sarah Silverman's bus tours years ago. And Sarah had hired me to open for her. And so I got, that's how I met Jessica. And then when we had so much fun on that tour, we really connected, Jess, Jess and I, and so after we got back, she bought tickets to go see me at Largo, but she got sick. And then she told her best friend who is Ryan, the director. She said, I just hung out with this comedian. She's so funny. You should go see her. I can't make it here. My tickets. And he was like, I guess I'll just invite all my gay guy friends and we'll go. And that was the night I said I had cancer. He was, at that show. So that is like a crazy full circle that happened. Yeah. It's wild. that's really serendipitous and bizarre well and how funny that jess is like oh my god she's so funny go see her and then ryan's sitting there and i'm like i have my mother drift and died and i can't eat food and my girlfriend and i broke up who's with me girls so he was truly like what the hell is happening and he told his friends apparently she's really funny it was yeah so how much how much is your comedy how much do you use it as a tool to kind of chew through all of that stuff during that phase like was is you know how sometimes you hear about artists they're producing you know it's poets it's songwriters I imagine comedians it's like how you're but some comedians don't necessarily talk about their own stuff or their own real problems you know it's observational or whatever like this was so incredibly personal is had that always been your approach and is that is that a like a modality for you to heal I was very much I mean I've gone through so many different versions of myself as a comedian I used to do like very just deadpan one-liners I was so nervous to be up there and then I started telling longer jokes and then stories and just kind of allowed myself to shift because I realized my voice is still in me like who I am so no matter if I do one-liners or announce that I have cancer it's still gonna be me but once once I did that show at Largo that was so unusual for me because I was normally like oh my gosh this guy came up and said this weird thing to me and then I break that down and analyze it and whatever but with this I had never ever gone this personal and it just really cracked me open I don't even know who I was before 2012 I truly mean that with every fiber of my being that it changed me so much and I think that's what I'm doing so so deeply but I'm also coming back around in this way of like it was so cathartic to be so personal and open but now I'm also like I don't have to share everything I'm not really in that phase of life on on that deep of a level that I because I you know I I can point people to I wrote a book I have a stand-up special I have a documentary I had a TV show about my diagnosis I have all of these different things that you can access and I have to always remember I need to be happy and having fun on stage and doing what I want to do for the audience to enjoy the show and but it was so therapeutic and it was so therapeutic for me also as just a person wandering around this planet because I remember my friend Lake Bell she brought me home from the hospital and you know I didn't have my girlfriend I didn't have my mother I didn't have the immediate people that I would have reached out to to help me go through this time and and my my two close other close friends they were like well we're gonna stay I had a loft in downtown Los Angeles just a one-bedroom loft at the time and and they were like we're gonna stay here with you because I couldn't lift my arms I couldn't I couldn't do anything and I was like no no no I I I'm I'm okay you guys everybody can go and they were like Tig you know I had to like drain blood from my incisions I had to sorry to be graphic but like no this is it it was a I was not in good shape and I was also still struggling to eat and they were just laughing at me like what do you what you yeah later what planet are we just going to be like okay cool she said she's good all right let's go my meter's running out and and so it was a real crack open where I started accepting help and then I also started to realize I want to help other people I want to be I I just it whatever I'm I'm rambling but it really woke me up as a comedian as a person as a stranger to others as as so many a parent a spouse a friend I just I just am a different person amazing I mean I I do I see it's just I see it it's it's such a it's such a gift when we traverse through these really difficult things if we if we let the magic part of the hardest thing do its work like it's just it it it is life-changing I have so many friends who've gone through similar things and not necessarily all cancer but there's always there's always a reckoning and I think if you come out of the come out the other side more open more knowing yourself better you know with a softer approach towards yourself in life it's it's it's amazing to see actually you know that there are benefits of going through something so hard I mean yours was really extra that year is that was really it was tough but it's also like you know people come up to me and they're like I went through this and they're like but it wasn't as bad as yours I don't feel I don't feel that way I mean I feel like that is bad you know right whatever your version is and whatever you have gotten used to in life or haven't gotten used to I'm not walking around thinking I went through the worst thing ever I know I went through a really rough time yeah but like also with Andrea what Andrea would say is like don't wait for it that kind of diagnosis to start living your life and and what I hope this movie does is act as a replacement for that to in hopes that you don't have to go through that but you can see how just yeah just you you don't it's hard to tell people to wake up when they don't really have a reason to or but but let this movie be a replacement for a horrible diagnosis and but it's it's beautiful it's it's a it's it's it is so joyful too it's it's the as Andrea's poem like called the little things if you recall when Andrea's finding that joy and feeding the squirrels and mending a friend's clothing with their grandmother's thimble you know and it just it's so beautiful and it's such an incredible reminder and and their words stay with me and guide me on a daily basis and and that's when I'm even cold like shivering cold I think Andrea would give anything in the world to be as cold as I am right now hmm you know it's reminds me of that poem that they wrote how the worst day of my life became the best and actually there's a line in it where they say by by night time I was intimate with the difference between tying my laces and tuning the string section of my shoes made a symphony of walking away from everything that did not want my life to sing felt a love for myself so consistent metronomes tried to copyright my heartbeat yeah beautiful you know and I'm I'm also so grateful to you for the documentary because I became such a fan of her poetry through the documentary and in the wake of watching the documentary you know and her work is so incredible incredible and so resonant and so helpful it's like when a poem is a good poem it's like going to church you know it's like does it's it's that I mean they were so brilliant at just getting right underneath and in and just you know like blowing your soul open well I remember when Stephen Colbert he moderated a a panel for the film in New York and he referenced a line in one of Andrea's poems that says and it's it's talking about when Andrea woke up from surgery and Meg had to tell Andrea some really heavy news and I I don't know if I can quote it perfectly but it the ideas Andrea says you know if people think post poetry is frivolous, then they've never had to have somebody tell them unspeakably hard news beautifully. Stephen said at the panel, he said, I think that's what this movie does also is relay that same message so beautifully. And one of my favorite things Andrea would say is, what kind of poet would I be if I could only make life beautiful on the page? And I also think, I love that so much. And I also think that's exactly what this movie does, is make life beautiful beyond the page. It does. Ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease symptoms, don't pause for the moments that matter. That's why understanding your treatment is so important. And I think that's why I'm here today. Ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Talk to your doctor and explore what's possible, or call the doctor. 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about Trampaya and visit trampayaradio.com. Trampaya provides 12 times more moisture and helps reduce frizz for up to 72 hours. That's a hair care hit worth putting on repeat. Is Meg okay? After I watched the movie, I kept thinking, man, I hope she's okay. Meg is such a freak of nature. It's been so interesting to be on a press tour for this. I mean, I'm used to going on Colbert. You know, Conan or Drew Barrymore and just doing stupid bits and having fun. And then I show up and I'm like crying on Colbert. And I it's so and I'm like also simultaneously promoting this new Star Trek series I've been on. So like one interview, I'll be talking about outer space and the other one I'm like, oh, and when I was with my friend and their last few days of life, and then I'm crying about poetry and death. But somebody said to Meg, what's it like being on a press tour in the middle of all this grief? And Meg said, Oh, am I on a press tour? I didn't even know I was on a press tour. She said, she referenced that idea of a person dies twice. Once when they actually leave their body or this planet. And the second time is when the last person speaks their name. And I just feel like I've been having this incredible opportunity to talk about Andrea every day of my life and share their work with everybody. And in fact, Meg, listen, there's a lot of grief in there. But this is also a tremendous poet and remarkable human being. When people ask Meg, how she's doing she with Andrea's death, Meg refers to it as Andrea's alleged passing. She said that she just feels Andrea in every space of this life and world and planet. And, and when she goes to bed, she said she asks, Andrea to put their arms around her and she says she feels Andrea and goes right to sleep. But she's, she's, I think, like anybody going through heavy grief, it sneaks up on you in, in ways, even for myself, doing these talk shows. I've been surprised at the pre interviews, when a producer is just asking me questions, and then I've burst into tears. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, I'm, when they asked me on Colbert, would you want to read one of Andrea's poems? I immediately started crying, I was not prepared for that question. And I, and I, I thought I was finally prepared to go on and do it. And Stephen, who normally comes over during the commercial break, to just be funny and, you know, with me that day he came he came over and he just grabbed my hands and looked me in the eyes and he said i love you so much and then my emotions jump back up to here i sit down and then he says do you want to read one of andrea's poems and i was like sure you know and then i i'm reading it and i could not finish it and i ended on like swing set and then i start crying and and then and then i couldn't talk because i was crying and then the crowd starts clapping and i was like no that's not the end of this poem and i was so upset i thought i had like botched the mission and i called meg right after and i was like i was like i cried on colbert i was like i cried on colbert and she was like you know what the moment she said first of all that's exactly what andrea would have wanted and she said second of all you know the part in the documentary when andrea says i feel like my death is going to make my loved ones more of who they are meg said i always hated that because i thought losing you will never never make anything better or anyone better and i told meg i said i never understood what that even meant i was like why i don't even get it i'm i'm not smart enough i don't know what that means and then meg said but you reading andrea's poem on colbert and crying was you becoming more of who you are and so I was I was a little hard on myself because I wanted everyone to hear Andrea's words so that's incredible what that's who Meg is that's who Meg is that's how Meg is doing there is grief but there is so much depth and joy and love and she's really remarkable she's so talented and smart and and quite pragmatic you know I mean I only know her through the the documentary but I I was struck by her pragmatism by her you know real center you know I was like wow she just seems like a very special person who really knows herself and she is and and I think more than anything open to getting to know herself even more and I think that's why these two people made such great documentary subjects because they are Ryan said he's never he's made 15 he and Jess have made 15 documentaries they are childhood best friends he said this is the first film we've made where our subjects never asked us how are you framing me what is the story we're telling they had no questions and that is solely what I would blame on true artists trusting true artists and and what came out the other side was they did not hold back they were they were all in all in and they really trusted their director that's extraordinarily brave but are real artists trusting real artists I mean that's you said it perfectly because I think if when you know you're in good hands I mean it's the same thing in a in a film when you know you're in good hands you know that you're free to explore the truth of whatever and you're not gonna you don't need to contract and protect yourself you know no my gosh they that's what right he he said that he and Jess looked at each other when they first started rolling like can't like this is the first this is again the dinner scene that was the first day of production crazy I can't believe that was the first day that was the first day and he said that every day they shot could have been a full documentary on its own and and meg has started to release clips on her instagram that bernice the editor had so thoughtfully and so kind to edit these beautiful clips that didn't make it into the documentary and and send as a gift to meg i want to ask you just briefly about abby and and glennon because i adore them they're friends of mine as well abby wombeck and glennon doyle of course how did they become involved in the in the documentary well i knew based on the fact that they had interviewed andrea that they were fans and they were you friends with them at this point yeah not like i mean this documentary we all went in friendly or close on some level and we came out like family i mean beyond and i always say there's always some weirdo rattling around in a production that was not the case on this film it was extraordinary how how much people really stuck to this has to be led by only love and that really really was the case but glennon and abby i just thought they felt like who i should call first because they really were leading with we're fans we are big fans of this poet and and texted them at like 730. And I said, Hey, I'm working on a because Ryan and Jess said, we're going to just pay out of pocket until we can find some financial backing. And so I reached out without telling anybody, I just sent them a text and said, I'm doing I'm working on this project about Andrea Gibson, would you want to chat about potentially being a part of it? I thought they were gonna say, yeah, sure, let's set a call for next week, or they sent me a zoom link within maybe a minute or two. And I was like, Oh, wow, okay. And I got on my computer. I was not expecting people to work as fast. As I did. And so I'm on this zoom with them. And I tell them what's going on. And I gave them a rough estimate of what I had been told was needed to make the budget was needed for to make it. And and they said, Oh, my gosh, this is so yeah, we're very interested. We need to talk to our accountants and business managers, whoever. And we'll get back to you. And I was like, great. And we get off the zoom. I pride myself on not exaggerating. Gwyneth. Yeah. 30 seconds later, I got a text from them. We're in for half a million. And I was like, what, like, they clearly didn't need to talk to their accountants. They just looked at what should we do? How much? And the fact that I got to call Ryan and Jess and be like, Glennon and Abby are in for half a million. And it was just game on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, you know, obviously, I know people with some cash, but but it's like, this, I have to know that you're going to be behind this. This. Yeah. Yeah. Like you have to really understand this is, again, non binary poet stage four cancer. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's wow. I never at any point felt like there was a bad apple, but I was like, this has to be led with love. This is an old friend in a very tricky, difficult situation. And what was so beautiful, too, was the crew was so tiny, so tiny, because it was a documentary. But also, you couldn't have a lot of people because this person was so ill. But even after the film wrapped, the cinematographer, the sound guy, people continued to fly out to go visit Meg and Andrea. You're kidding me. No, I'm not. It was. That's where, look, I've been on TV shows and films where people are like, and we became a family. And I'm telling you, this was tight. This was tight. Wow. Well, you know what? It doesn't surprise me, just having watched it and feeling part of something. I think when you watch this beautiful documentary, you feel brought into it. You feel immediately. You feel so close to, even though it's, which is so strange, but you feel, you feel a part of it. You know, you feel a part of, of Andrea's journey and Meg's journey. And it is so deeply inspiring and moving beyond anything I've really seen recently, I have to say. So, just huge congratulations to you. And this Oscar nomination is deserved. Thank you. It's just, it's so extraordinary. And I hope everybody sees it. It's on Apple TV. You can just buy it there or download it there. It's, it's so worth the time. Well, I so appreciate, and it just means so much to me. I, I, it of course means so much when anybody loves the film, but if I know someone personally and they're so moved, it just elevates it beyond, beyond. Well, you've made, you've made a significant contribution. You've made a significant contribution to culture with it. You know, it's, it's, it's really hard to do. So, congratulations. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Goop Holiday Gift Guides are our calling cards. We scour the earth for the best options in every category to make it easy for you to find the right gifts for everyone on your list. 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