Ticket #2 - “Digital Twin of Me”

[Music] Hello, welcome to episode two of "Have You Raised A Ticket?" Darren Mann, how are you doing this week? Anything exciting in your world? Only that we're looking to move, looking to move house. There may be a new background soon. I've got a cold. I've got a cold. The day before we do this exciting thing, I start getting a sore throat. So I'm going to sound very husky. I do a. Sounds like Manflue, but equally, we could both sound sexy and gorgeous. I'm sure that'll be okay. The list of us will appreciate it. It sounds a little gulp. Always so gorgeous. [Laughter] It's a little like a government we have some exciting elections coming up, which we've got to be agnostic about, but I'm trying to get myself on account. I'm just putting out there. If anyone needs a warm body, I'm available. Counts are a very interesting thing. Locked in a very large room with everyone watching your every move. I would recommend someone does at least once in their lifetime. It's an experience. You're part of life? You don't want to repeat. You're part of history. I find it really exciting. Barnes, ladies, rugby team, big shout out. They did the Lambeth count. We had four seats. I think we were the biggest count in the country. We had four seats that we were counting in. And they rocked up to do the book. You know, when they sort of turn up on the TV and someone grabs the box and runs off with it, that was them. They were a who. We were sort of in one team together. Our team was such fun that all the boys came to join us. I don't know why they did that. I can't think. But we had such a who. And they were the best. Barnes, ladies, rugby team, autumn, bunch of girls. Really good fun. Well done, Lambeth for that. Okay, so today, who have we got today? Darren? We have Nicola Egan from Luton, who is the head of digital innovation. She's the head of innovation, delivery and data. I should know that because I met at that job title. And? Jens Gamel. Jens Gamel, published author. He is very well known in our sector and delightful gentlemen. Read a couple of books. We'll get that out of him when he, when he appears. But really interesting stuff around how we work in government and what we can achieve for our communities. I, I'm a big fan of his as well, as well as Nicola Egan's, who is good fun. We're doing this because we want to have the conversations about digital data and technology that you don't see anywhere else. Those kind of really nitty-gritty gap-filling, here's the issues, here's the problems, here's what we're facing. That's why we're doing this, isn't it, Jove? Because there's nothing like this out there. It is. But also, I like the fact that neither of these two have what I would call linear careers. They're not sort of worked for one council and not moved on. They've worked across different councils. And I think that's something that we welcome. Often we eye here from candidates. Oh, I haven't got local government experience. No one's going to hire me. They will, actually. That is part of your attraction. You just need to be able to understand the process that you go through. So I really like the idea that they're coming from different backgrounds, worked in different sectors as well as public sector and local government. They also will share with us why it's different working in government as opposed to working in the private sector. And they're taken what's happening in the future as well because I think we are in a period of change. Not just technology-wise, but AI and was it quantum computing, but also local government reform and the ever tightening per string that we all have to face where digital is the panacea, the magic bullet, whatever you want to call it for everything. So very exciting time ahead of us, I think, in this week's episode. Completely agree. Let's get into it. Nick Legen, do you visit her? Always. Do you? No. Oh, sorry, yes. Sometimes. 50/50. This is going down a lot quicker than I anticipated. Who are you? Who are you from? Nick Legen, every team. So, yeah, I am Nick Legen and I am currently at Leuton Council number 15, 27 years local golf. But yeah, end of week four and very much enjoying it at Leuton Council. Jens Gamel, who are you? And do you raise a ticket? Who? Jens, hi. Now I thought I thought you raised tickets. I never have to. Definitely. I've solved problems by myself. Yeah, so I'm Jens. I'm originally from Germany. But I've been living in the UK for the last 27 years and I'm firmly placed in local government reform and innovation for some 25 years. I'm an interim. So I do interim gigs usually between 12 and 18 months. But I'm originally really from the private sector. I started off implementing ERP solutions, SAP Oracle. So I come from a merger integration, foreign technology perspective and cross perspective. Then I have my own e-learning company at AfonJuner.com, which I've had a soul term then. I have firmly moved into the public sector. Okay, so today's episode is about non-linear careers coming into the government, not necessarily having spent your life at the same council, what you're getting out of it, why it's so much fun, what we see in terms of the future. Which I think this is so amazing that we have both Nickler and Jens Alex. I think you both have worked for lots of different councils. Things are changing this week. The government came out with its local government ideas in terms of how they're going to deliver their reform that they are talking about. So not to talk about Mr Man, what's your view? Well, it's cool because I listen to both of you and clearly you've pivoted a lot in your career. Similar to me, I've done private sector and public sector and local government. Why do you do what you do? Why is it so exciting about moving, shifting career choices, but then lead you here to what we do in local government? Jens? Well, I mentioned earlier I started off the private sector and part of my job, this was, this was not what we're going back to the end of the 1990s. Bringing more efficiencies in the private sector is mainly about increasing your profit margins and reducing your operational cost. And the majority of the jobs or the majority of the projects and programs I've been engaged in the private sector in the 1990s. Some of them were international projects, a lot of them in the UK, bases in the North East, North West, industrial centres and former industrial centres and the majority of the projects that brought the most of us, what's called mess redundancies, mergers, acquisitions, integration, people losing their jobs and behind every job as a family, specifically in very deprived areas of the North East. And I didn't enjoy it. So after a number of years, I decided there's got to be something different up there, purpose wise and things that make you feel good when you actually introduce change, including efficiency savings. So I kind of moved a bit into the kind of happy sector, I guess, by kind of by coincidence, a little bit, by chance. When I had my eat any company, just before I sold it the last year, I had the opportunity to become a freelance kind of e-government advisor for the premises delivery units. So Tuesday morning breakfast, like they called it and you know, take people from all over the world and go together and so we met and we came up with solving problems two week at the ideas. So I got involved in core designing or part of the design team for solutions like TELAS once, which is the brief and solution that was rolled out from 2006 onwards, the customization. And after that had the opportunity to do a gig care in Thoreau actually, working between Circle and Thoreau Council on an outsourcing tier at that time, transferring and shipping people across, but also part of it was a large or a recommendation. And at someone that left the local government's area, I've been enjoying it for a while and so since after Thoreau I've moved from gig to gig beginning, lots of e-governments, lots of transformation, lots of investment, capture investment, revenue investment, and then in 2010, we destroyed everything that we built again, right? The moment of austerity started and we are now at gas head end at the air of permanent austerity. So the money's gone, the world come back. So it's becoming more challenging, I guess, you know, but the purpose has never really left the work that I'm trying to do. And I think, I think, exactly what we've hit, that purpose that wanted to actually change and while change is uncertain underneath them. Like you said, a lot of their funding is never going to be coming back, particularly with LGR coming as well. And that's something that I know that's something Joe, you want to talk about. Nicola, what about you? How's your career developed? And what have you taken as you've moved through it? Yeah, how's it developed? It's interesting, because I kind of think back to it was sort of wired in me to work for local government, I think, as my mum's over 30 years working for Latchin, she only worked in one council. So the kind of that part wasn't the hard, hard, wide bit, it was the movement, but initially it was like no permanent roles, stay where I am, etc. And then I got that taste for that change and how you can help. And, you know, it might sound a little bit, oh yeah, okay, a bit tweey perhaps, but it is about putting back, you know, the social value element and actually helping and seeing that real value. I've never had an interest in, you know, I have been tempted and I have kind of dabbled with working for, you know, private sector, but it's really to not about, I don't get excited by that kind of margin and that profit and what have you, it's about that value of actually how you can improve people's lives and that impact you can have. And it's just true, I mean, to say, doing it through my mum, that background, then my, you know, social policy degree, etc. and how I've kind of seen that through. But yeah, in terms of why I've then moved on, it's just that opportunity. You know councils yes they deliver the same thing but it's how they take have a different take on how they deliver that and there is just so much opportunity with working different places because you can bring all that good learning you can you know try to forget some of the bad situations and and the thing of you know working with good people and I stand firm that I think people think that public sector is slightly behind the curve I just stand firm against that I don't believe it I think it's very much ahead of the curve and I think great actually yeah 100% and I more of my friends and even like my partner who works in in private sector can absolutely see that that's not you know that that kind of you on on local golf it's not like that anymore until and he says yeah you're doing this really innovative stuff and you know my role the creation of my role in the the title of it that absolutely drew me it's all like the fun stuff of all the different roles I've had over the years all in one responsibility which is fantastic and that is a great useful job title it is I love it it's and I know I don't know we go to job right to the loan we wrote it yeah one time we went to the job title Joe who was that I don't know the inspiration and I and I one of the things I've noticed over the last couple of years and I know you agree with me is local government now has very little choice but to be innovative absolutely we have to find different ways of doing things not for the profit but because the resources are beginning to be minimized so we have to think of different ways of delivering things which has to have some investment upfront but also that innovative drive to deliver services in a different way do you do you feel that as well yeah absolutely I've seen that in places and actually those that um you know might say it but it's is that real actions versus words because there are places that say these things but there really isn't that kind of I mean look I'm you know in a week four I've got this you know this is absolutely support from my manager about coming on or she came on last weekend but you know the the last podcast but no just things like this to raise the awareness and to have that innovation to that that trust in staff and just that cultural piece around what you're trying to do it gives people that autonomy to kind of think for themselves in power people but actually you've got to still do the work and you've got to get stuff done but why not think slightly outside the box and I personally I've as I've got old or I've really relished that opportunity in people where I see right yeah they think differently great just like me because I always have struggled with that when I was younger and now I'm like right think differently but that's a strength not weakness yeah Jens is one of the biggest thinking differently people out there and I know written two books um you what you and you influence us you influence all of us we've seen you speak at conferences at Tica at Muhammad at Luton Council read your I think you're living council piece your letter to new members of staff and it inspired them when we have people writing to the SMT saying what's that book who's that author I absolutely want to get it tell us about your view on in your take on innovation within government and what it is that you know are we behind the curve or are you even the same as let kind of think in actually we really do bring some new new things to the party I don't think we are behind the curve I think it's a different type of innovation and if there's one thing I've learned from the private sector is that the organizations that probably transform and innovate the quickest and more successfully are also running out of cash because they have to and with it comes the mandate the speed the governance the the motivation of people and making it exciting because they know that you have a goal life you have something that you have to work towards in the next 12 or 24 months and now doesn't arrive at the right or wrong time it probably arrives at the worst time think possible you know there's different I talk a lot about systemic acceleration and and what it does to to people at behavior and and I guess we are at a moment where we are in the era of permaversity the money is gone it wants come back and well it's unlikely to come back in the near future or at all and while at the same time we have massive geopolitical tensions we have systems shocks coming into the UK this year and they would stay with us for quite a long time and that is the gastroinflation disruption through AI supply chain issues the monetary order the word order it's changing as we speak so all these kind of factors inject additional stress into the system which makes it much more challenging because of focus and capacity but it also makes it more exciting because you get stuff done much quicker and and and and with it comes that that mandate so so are we behind the curve I don't think we are behind the curve I think we just focus on different types of innovation which is people centered as opposed to profit centers and I think and I think that's that's where the difference is exciting times actually very exciting very exciting I love the fact you spoke to wide attentions and how it does impact us on a day-to-day basis as because I also have a firm belief that we all look outside and look at central government but the biggest touch point that the majority of our citizens will have is with local government it's with the local government service this is where you'll interact with the most with the states so to speak and it is so fundamentally important that we get it right and we get it right for its time and I love the fact you spoke to you know being very people centered in our change as opposed to as opposed to profit centered is there any sort of innovation that you've seen yes that you could speak of or you'd like to speak to in terms of something you think actually it'll be great if lots of other councils started to adopt that yeah I'm just I'm myself at the moments have a trying out and trying my own digital twin AI at the moments which is quite exciting I just completely blows me away right so so you basically you're you're you're having an attentive copy of yourself as a as a digital and agents and and it loads from everything you say everything you write about and learns from your laptop and the source documentation and everything that you feed it and it speaks like you it looks like you and and it's it's just very very fascinating it's it's just something that I've just I don't think you ever prepared for that looking after yourself talking to yourself and something prospect that looks like you and speaks like it so so I'm trying that at the moment and I think it's probably it will be probably really useful for podcasts and other things but I'll just curious that the opportunity and working with a technology partner that you can obviously see things and it's it's it's it's an exciting journey but it's it's also really scary at the centre it's only one true Jens that's that's the important thing we need to take away from this though so it's a review are we talking to the real yeah yeah yeah good good Nick look and you can we see the tools twins coming into force at uh luten anytime soon I question that they are quite discovered yeah not quite not quite I think we've got a few other things to focus on but you know hey look I can take innovation it's really funny actually because I'm thinking as I've got this wrong we're saying you know here in 226 you know having innovation in my job title is exciting and it is and I remember having it as a title um 2013 so um take back my career well I won't say where but I remember having it as part of my title in a council then and um uh some senior person coming up and seeing our name badge on the seeing innovation and looking at so well I'd rubbish exactly I just thought I'd say that because it was quite I know that they don't work there anymore and it's all been the past and all heavy so I can kind of say that quite comfortably but I remember I was younger then as well so I was thinking oh gosh that was a bit of a slight and you know how do I take that but I just find it funny now finally so what advice would you give that younger self then you know in terms of navigating that career and the innovation what advice would you give because I dents you I know you talk a lot to younger people but let's talk with you Nicklone what would you say to that you're younger self when people were questioning you yeah um I'd say just have the confidence to you know I'm there that was the title I was given you know in that example and that's the role I was doing so to have that confidence not to feel I remember feeling just a little bit kind of a bit shocked that it was said but also then a bit upset by it and it said now I just have that different it's like oh I'm just curious as to why you think that I would probably even say that now I'm like curious why do you why do you think that rather than just letting that be that person owning that statement and make you know you know I'm not saying making it true feel yeah um in any way but um but yeah just no that's it exciting well why is that then and explore that a little bit more and and yeah confidence comes a lot I don't know it is that kind of age-old thing with age comes confidence but it's um it's true I've certainly that was one of the things I always had that feedback when I was younger have be more confident have more confidence in yourself now I've got it I'm like okay great but you know two or three obviously not going off kind of being rogue but within reason uh challenge is is good and I would encourage people to do that as well I think there was that thing maybe in old and sizes or know your place don't say anything you know within reason but I would certainly empower and encourage those coming through um you know from different roles now maybe entry kind of into into local gov just yeah look you've got so much you know even if it's not work experience you've got experience you've got thoughts you've got ideas bring them to to us absolutely encourage and mentor yeah big big fan of coaching and mentoring it's interesting isn't it a lot of people I don't think realise that a lot a big part of innovation is challenge because otherwise you're just thinking the same way yes yes you're absolutely right there's the the title of disruptor which is often seen as the kind of in your face and really rude but no the challenge is key and it's about how you you deliver that challenge to make people hold the mirror ups themselves really and go, "Oh, one minute." Why are we doing this? Are we just doing this? We've done it for the last 20 years. What can we do differently? Even if it's small changes, all the challenges actually reflect someone big change. And I think that's a great piece of advice. Don't be worried about challenging. Be confident to try and learn a different way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, 100%. I think it's really important. Yeah, and not to. And have that safe space, places where there's. You can safely. I've been in places where it's like I just used to get a look from a manager and I said that was enough and I know I couldn't say anything so I just felt like I had to filter myself and it's great, certainly feeling it already here for weeks in knowing that it's okay to say it, do it, be it, be yourself. And Jen, do you have very strong views on this? To the point where Askham Hammond raids your book out to the whole of the D-Dat team at Lootin. But what would you all be to. Not necessarily a younger self, but to a younger person who's coming in to local government. What would you say to them if they wanted to innovate and make differences and make have an impact? But actually we're being blocked or people are challenging them or getting in the way or just not being open to looking at things differently. First of all, the two things, innovation is not a product. So I think that's a mistake we all kind of make. We can afford and just grab a whole lot of developing a solution for a specific problem which is a product and then we call it innovation. And I think that's the problem. I think it's a cultural thing, it's a mindset and it's something that you don't need permission for. And so this is the ball of creating the environment where people become innovative. So this could be running a number of hackathons with startups and universities in a council chamber with all kinds of different services over a number of days. I've done this in the past in the Southwest where we put people into the council chamber and we run effectively an innovation marketplace with various organization, demonstrating how they find solutions to solve all the problems. So that's kind of like number one. So you don't need to wait for permission, you can get on with it. And second one, it's a mindset. There's a way of doing innovation and making it interesting and engaging and getting people excited about it. And often it dies a product, product illustration face. And I say, yeah, it looks like kind of nice. You know, it goes away for six months, create a environment, document and then you send it all through a tender, through procurement and then maybe it's called for later. You have a, have a, have an engagement with the product. But then only with that product because he thought it in the procurement process for that. I think we need to start thinking completely different about this. There's flexibility procurement, the new procurement policy and framework that's been placed now for a number of months and enables us to work also with jointly with university startups and SMEs, which I think is absolutely right. Because tomorrow's unicorns are today startups and there is, there are no big players in the AI industry today unless you go for the, for the big US tech companies, which I guess, I guess that's been those relationships will be challenged on the next 12 to 24 months, including in this country. And so I think we've got to kind of be innovative, innovative ourselves about how we engage with the market because there's some awesome talent out there. There's some, some awesome products out there. And really exciting Genji students who are just dying to kind of work with local authorities, local governments and the public sector. And we just need to create the environment where they can do that with us and that way you inspire, you create local employment, you retain locally, your workforce, but also people who graduate locally and you create local interests of course. And I think that's the way forward. Oh music to my ears. I absolutely loved everything. He said, "Herkathon, tell me about your hackathon. What problem were you solving to tell me about what came out of that hackathon?" In numbers, so, so, a hackathon is basically just a fancy way of saying, running interactive demonstrations and then modifying a product or a service as you learn more throughout the day in that cohort that you take and that you are working with to solve specific problems or this could be. I mean, most people in the local government are long using automation tools, any simple EHCP assessments, but these kind of automation tools that don't have intelligence in itself, they kind of alter age forms. But the way you do it is you basically lock people up, look for a day or two and make sure nobody leaves before you actually have a solution to a problem and have them in a bit of a product development and speaking. But predominantly these are startups of small size SME companies, you know, you wouldn't call a organization like Microsoft, which will run a hackathon with you because they have stellar products. They're quite rich, and therefore they're generally in a wrong form, modifications. So what you want to do is you want to create local hackathons that are local ecosystems and the local workforce. That's so cool. And then that generates that kind of local economy as well. You're actually right. The big players, there's millions of ways of doing things in their products and you have to follow that very strict route. So I think that kind of inspiring smaller organizations to work with local government again drives that innovation. That's a shocker. It's a shocker because people don't think we do it. It's a unusual step you've taken there, Yens, and people don't really know what they're doing. What are some of the unusual steps you've taken in terms of in your career, in terms of getting back into work in local government and what you get back out of it? What's some of the unusual things you've done? In terms of actual, just thinking outside the box myself, I suppose. So unusual, maybe not too radical, but one place where I worked where I had a role, I had a structure, one minute, and then everything changed pretty much overnight because of certain circumstances of things. And it was like, right, I've just kind of got to put my big girl pants on and go and sort of, you know, go to these people that do not know me at all. And I just got this said about confidence. It just kind of came, it just sort of kicked something kicked in. It's like, right, well, this is a face of adversity. I need to show what I've got. This is COVID. No, it was actually before COVID. It was a very specific set of circumstances with the council I was out at the time. And yeah, two, three years before then. And I just thought, right, I'm just going to go off. I'm going to introduce myself, I'm going to say what I think I can do. And if that's supposed innovative in its own way, ironically at the same council where someone had said innovation, what later on, but you know, it's what do you mean by that? And I just like, right, I'm going to get this done. I needed to, I could see that this thing was a good thing to do. And I just went for it and just put my head above the parapet and it paid off because I think from then, it was sort of a trajectory from that. I then, you know, learn, it was, it was kind of really like serendipitous in lots of ways because I kind of did that. Then got to, I remember the digital department saying, you know, you can really learn a lot from us and we know how to do things right. And by doing that, I got that opportunity. I remember thinking, "Cool, that's a bit, you know, bold statement." But absolutely, they did teach me. And I've, from that point, I use that as a pivotal moment because for me, for my career, it gave me the skills and the confidence and that support to then go off and do that. So I think from then on, that's when my career in terms of being a bit innovative in so much as perhaps doing more contract work or then, you know, setting up my company, having that confidence to do that and just surrounding myself by, with good people. And that takes time. And it's probably no coincidence, but that time in my life, I also personally decided, right, I'm going to get a bit fitter and healthier and, and, and, and started to kind of work on that side of me, but also mind wise too. So kind of did some, you know, therapy. That's when I really understood it and, and trained in my neuro linguistic programming to become a practitioner in that. And so it all kind of came together from that point. And it's all that toolkit and those things that I've learned from those points that I take forward every day. I remember at the interview at Luton, people on the panel were saying, you know, are you doing the NLP on me now? Yes, well, because it's not doing it. I do it every day. It's a toolkit for me. I use it on myself. And it's not something I do. It's just how I work and how I function. And, yeah, so, so in, in lots of ways, really to answer that question, I think, so, but, um, but just having that confidence, just to, it's okay to think slightly differently and not to go that kind of sheep route that for years, I would always do, you know, be the good girl, kind of do things in one way, not cause any problems or drama. That's just how I've lived my life up until, um, I was well into my 30s. And then I'm like, it's my, I call it my rebellious side. I'm not rebel in any way, shape or form, because I'm still very much, you know, I would hate to, to break rules, but. You actually are a girl guide. You actually are a girl that are coming work for them, but you are also a girl guide. Absolutely. Yeah. It's no bad thing. No, it's insane. I hope, yeah. Um, but, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've kind of, but you can challenge those things, can't you? You can push the boundaries even though, and yeah, I still get seen as a rebel by some people because of that. And yet, well, I'm really not. It's really interesting. And I think we all agree. All of the local government organizations who work in 80% of the stuff they do is the sign, but that doesn't mean we do it the same way. Yeah. Um, and, and that idea of the toolkit is, is, is the, the bag of tricks that you pull the right thing out for at the right time or try, I'll, I'll try a waterfall approach, or I'll try and add you all with a big A approach. Or, you know, all of those things we can dip into. And that's what we learn as we go through our career. It's not the, there's one way of doing it. It's the, I tried that. It didn't work. Let me try this. That worked. That goes into toolkit. but I think that didn't work. My work somewhere else. And I think that toolkit is what we take with us as we go through our career to find what works where. And I think that's what builds that confidence that we can actually pivot and change and do different things as we take all those tools with us. What's the one tool in you mentioned in LP, Nicola? What's the one tool you'd like that you put into that bag to pull out whenever you need it? It's going to sound a bit cliché now saying but it is for me, personally, discovering an LP per chance. Certainly it was like a small part of a training course that I did and I was like, I like that. No, that's really good. It's something for me. It made it suddenly, something clicked for me in my life was like, I've been trying to describe what I mean. And that is it. Great. How do I find out a bit more about that? And I was really fortunate. I had a fantastic manager at the time who said, you know, unfortunately budgets we can't, you know, meet it halfway. I can give you the time off to go and do the course. So I did a residential course if I found the money. But the fact that he thought innovatively by saying that to me, that is my training days. I did that and then I did the foundation level and then the deployment level sorry, the practitioner level. And yeah, genuinely that is something. And I then gift that all and I pass that on to people now and buy books for people and think really find out about it. They're interested. I'll buy them a book. And yeah, so I just think it's the same problem. Yes. And what about you? What's in within your toolbox? Well, I usually don't put things into toolbox. I usually take the rule books, the rule, the rule book out of the box and usually tear it up within with impolite framework. So I think I think and I think if you work in innovation and you want to disrupt the system gently, I guess, then then you got to think outside the box and and and and kind of throw the rule books out of the book out. And we did it in a whole thing, right? But yeah, it's really what's the most radical thing I've ever done. I think that was the original question. Was it? Yeah. I think it's slightly mad kind of when we when 2001, 2000, two children in the dot com boom, I I started I had an idea. Right. And and I was convinced and I was right, I guess it will change the industry and the way we kind of learn as as as workforce, as members of staff of organizations. And I started the first e learning or developed the first e learning portal or ERP users, SAP and Oracle users. And so the training market and and I built an organization for places in Budapest and with with some to develop this in Moscow. And so over just a period of 12 months and we just went for it. We got funding during those days funding was a bit easier. You know, dot com website and then you got funding basically. And but it was easy, easier by funding back then, but it contained a certain risk like because if you have organizations that are incorporated abroad, then the funding in the UK like ill-equality different securities. So we've taken quite a bit of of a risk and we had about a number of stuff, about 60 FTs or 70 FCs just before we'd scale it down a bit and then solve the company. But yeah, that was quite ready. Can I have no relationships with with Hungary and Budapest? I didn't like the culture but great language capabilities. So you go to a place like Budapest, very young workforce, highly educated and they all speak multiple languages because they have to know which to be sangarian. So far, there was a perfect place to build a business. But it was it really could at that time, you know. No one was doing that. Everyone was doing it at the time, were they? There was no space in Budapest. 2001, I was quite young, didn't really have the pockets, didn't know really and never really started the business before. I got inspired by previous colleagues and we pulled it off. And I guess you can see this as a bit radical. And yeah, first my story. I think that's awesome. Fantastic story. Thinking about the future, service improvement and future trends. So what do you think on the horizon, Jens? What do you think is coming down the pipe that we need to start considering and thinking about when it comes to local government data? The two things have been at the same time, right? And there's also both opportunities, but they're also very disruptive. And number one, LGR is going to happen for a number of local authorities. Right. Just to spend just to say more, yesterday, Essex, Suffolk and a number of other local authorities, I don't know, have been approved from growing ahead. We've only got two years left. Right. So there's a challenge. There's also an opportunity. So I think what would come our way in the next two years is, would strike it probably with capacity to transform organizations and implement the stuff that we want to implement. And I think therefore the focus is got to be on, for a vesting day, for the gold life day, it's to focus on creating safe legal and operational councils, right? I think there would be very little space and capacity and appetite or innovation and innovating as part of the LGR journey in the next two years, because the priority would be to keep people safe, create a legal organization and keep the operations going. But then the opportunity arrives like in the next two years and gas to create the thinking space. Okay. Well, what do we want this whole thing to look like? Right. So once we start integrating, systems, processes, people, and technology, so in finance, what do we want this to look like? Do we want to redesign it around people needs? Maybe we don't want to have departments that are side of maybe want to create our services entirely around households. Right. So I think those can households here have families and individuals living and then they have children, they have adults, they have different needs, different requirements. Some of our customers and a lot of them probably live in one of our properties or in one of our partner organizations. So I think there's a big opportunity to actually redesign services around needs, around prevention first thinking and and then think about how AI can help us with that. So think from vesting day when I would say the first 100 days afterwards, we're like it just spends on connecting the systems, monitoring two months and patterns and then targeting the services that have the highest demand first and then the right sighting them and then thinking completely hopefully out of the box or hope is not a plan. It's also not very strategic but we should make plans that looks at the whole thing very, very different. And at the same time, the sense of second one at the same time with AI capabilities accelerating at an enormous speed, almost frightening speeds. So that's we would be augmented AI, autonomous AI at one point superintelligence and that will have enormous opportunities and the way we design services and also how we will be able to rebuild some of the lost capacity through the air of permanent austerity. Or the last 15 years. And so there's a great opportunity. And if we do that right, I think we can bring our work for so long and we will be able to create fit for purpose organizations that are all needs and that can survive within a reduced financial envelope which is even more of an XDS and ongoing. And if you do it wrongly, you use AI to lay off more stuff to achieve even more savings and squeeze your work for even more. And I think that will be a miss opportunity. How are you adopting AI to Luton, Nicola? Or are you on that journey yet or is it still in yours? Yeah, early days, I mean, I say that but actually I mean I've already been on this week. We had, I know Joe, you're feeling a little bit by this but I mentioned it. We went for an AI escape room. Joe wasn't able to contribute to join us. Yeah, so we brought that up. But yeah, sorry. Yeah, so it was really good. And that was like, yeah, with Microsoft, yeah. And it was a great opportunity. So literally to so early on of being here to be able to do something like that. And already and having had an away day where AI was being discussed so openly and encouraged to be used. Copilot specifically around, you know, how you can kind of help work with that like a bunk, some of the myths and what have you around copilot working or not working for people. So, you know, there is that there already that encouragement but also with that balance of like you just said, they end not replacing people. It's not about just getting AI in. And so I don't think we've got to worry about people being interested in AI or that people want it. I think it's about managing expectations and how fast some people want to go down that route. Certainly where I was working, you know, consulting before here, you know, there was just lots of before joining Luton, rather. There was lots of energy around AI and services wanted to run off and just buy systems and buy products. And it was like, you don't want to dampen their enthusiasm but equally it's like for what purpose just ask that question, you know, what do you think? What's, you know, just explore that a little bit more. There'll be something out there and how we use it and shape it and form it. But how it's going to be rolled out properly, there's going to be because there's still a fear factor. You know, I still speak to people who are like, oh gosh, no, I don't understand that. Why would we want that? What's going to happen to people off the back of it? Like you said, it's not about that. It's just about it properly being embedded like anything. But just at the right pace and time and whether the organisation is, you know, I'm learning a lot of cover data as well. So you've got to kind of think about some of the other aspects when you're bringing in a new product tool or way of working. It's everything, isn't it? Technology's only one part of it. You've got your people, you've got your processes, you've got your systems as well to complement it. So yeah, it's certainly not about the enthusiasm, it's about just how that kind of gets embedded, I would say. And there's a bit of a moral question. So. I heard I think was infield brought in magic notes to help their social workers write the notes when it comes to case work And that was saved them 20% their time, but do we then increase their workload by 20% or do we just give them back that thinking time? It's a real moral dilemma if we are I mean I've read pieces in the economists whereby people are experiencing this AI burnout because they are becoming more productive And because it you know things are working in a much more efficient pace Do we then give them a greater workload, but is the what is the outcome of that? Are we you know are we delivering burnout or should we give people that time and space to actually think? Or just keep trying to work load at them I guess this comes down to kind of where AI is misunderstood specifically on EHCP right and the problems don't go away just because More EHP the EHCP assessments are being done and therefore more children will get support, right? Yeah, it's in demand for a service for God, but it's already there anyway that demand you just haven't actioned it, right? So I guess I guess but with AI we have the opportunity to look at the root causes of why people showing up in the first place So this is kind of a local ecosystem kind of issue rather than something that the local authority can control and So therefore, I think that's where we kind of basically a trick in the kind of narrative and actually not looking at the root causes We look AI for automation and as a savings tool which I think is a completely wrong way of going above this and then then there's something you touched on earlier I wrote the the angst of the kind of the local zeitgeist around AI kind of like what does it do to our workforce and yeah I'm quite straightforward about this. I think I think Roads will disappear a lot of roads will disappear My application is of AI arriving on the local government workforce is going to be immense over the next two years And does that mean that people will lose their jobs? No, because this is the exact need Roads will change or will disappear, but then new jobs will also be created, right? But it's also the way our commitment and investing into our own workforce, right? So in my last gig we established a data AI academy, right? With and tap into the national apprentice gameships So I didn't even cost anything for the local authority We sent the initial code of 70 people through the apprentice game ship I mean so we know that these people will retain We know they will be more productive We know they have an awesome time and it's just so much fun And we know that they can positively contribute in other roles And actually And we'll have the ability to move across the organization But if you stand still You don't invest into your workforce or you yourself Don't show interest and it's absolutely yourself And then you're likely to also lose us One of the things I kind of lean into is it's not replacing staff It's augmenting staff It's yes, you're always going to have those repetitive tasks That AI can really help you with But yes, I think there's two things true there I think you're absolutely right We should be using AI Once we get that data set To look at the root cause To explain why people are hitting that front door And you get enough data And then you can address those root causes Minimizing that But you're also then releasing staff to look at those higher value tasks Which leads to some of the burn out where people are doing the low value tasks They get tired There's delays in the system Because people can't deal with those complex tasks That AI may not be able to address at first So it's that augmentation of that workforce I think is important And I completely agree with you The role will disappear that they may be sitting in But we should be as organizations equipping them for their next role Which is going to be AI enabled Which is going to be driving that innovation In the people in the processes Before you even hit the tech And I think you're absolutely right We're not going to see a reduction But we're going to see a real change in the workforce To release those higher value tasks And really be digitally enabled I think you're absolutely right Yeah and I think that the Human interaction with vulnerability There would always be a need for it Right Because people self-people And it's just the way we interact I guess with communities We'll be changing quite a lot And I can see this as being a positive development But we've got to kind of cease that opportunity We've got to do it right Because we've got to think systems We've got to implement prevention first thinking And then augmentation I guess Almost seeing it as an additional Kind of helps us Doing our jobs really brilliantly And we're still doing it in a very human way I love that I love what you've just said around Engaging the human vulnerability That will always be a people A task and a people ask Particularly actually The innovation I've loved and saw In the last couple of weeks Was the one where they were giving Care leave was £2000 And they saw a reduction in Engagement with drugs and alcohol They saw an increase In them being safely housed Home And in home, Ross and homelessness And it was really just empowering people And that is a new and innovative way To deal with You know Tell the recalls of why people Who unfortunately have not had the best starting life But really can benefit from being empowered You get to make your own choices And they made the right choices as well Which I think is something that we need to celebrate Anything you're about to do at Nicarolle Luton that you want to share with us In terms of advances Though indeed at a local government Something you're allowed to tell us I'd love to say something Super exciting what have you And there is There's some really good stuff But I think we've got to kind of take it back slightly And I don't want to be that kind of like But Darren you mentioned data And you know I mentioned it before You've really got to get to grips with data And what you're trying to do And that kind of And I don't mean just sort of a lower level You know you kind of You can bring it up And like that wide scale What are we trying to achieve And all that sort of stuff But you've got to really understand the data The underlying data To do a lot of these things Is what I'm discovering So yeah there's some great work That we're going to be doing around Master Data Management And you know The great kind of Data platform That we're looking at To be able to extract more And to answer more of the questions So that we're not just you know Turning out lists of reports And things like that So we can really Target And ask some different questions Of our data But we've got to get to the I mean I appreciate I'm I'm kind of relatively new here So I'm just getting to grips with But I think You know there is that That's got to be Looked at first of all And then we can do all the fun stuff And the exciting And then Building the team And the way You know I've got data under You know it's part of my title I can't do it alone Absolutely not And I think that's the thing Sometimes people think Right we put it you know one person Can have data There's never going to work Even when you know certain councils You know I've worked in you know The data maturity is pretty good You still got to have that You know the complete infrastructure Around you To be able to do anything Because then that's the You know Is that thing you know Working in connectivity As I have thought Last few years as well It's often the councils That are the best place Because they've got Sort of better data maturity Or they've got systems in place That will then end up Wearing the grants To do more innovation And it's sort of a shame That it makes sense Because they're set up to do it So they can win the grants And they can do more innovative stuff And you've got these other councils That perhaps like Kind of earlier on the journey And like well we haven't got the time To be able to To write those bids So we haven't got the resources To be able to do this And there's something about that Shifting a bit To give everybody an opportunity But also You've got to have the want And will to do it as well Because if you haven't got that capacity Or the The roles aren't changing Or like we've said a lot here Around You know taking personal Accountability for Upskilling yourself Upskilling your team Give them those opportunities To learn new Tools, skills Ways of working You know that's so important So there's some personal Accountability too But you've also got to get You can't go running away with something If you've not sorted out You're kind of your basics I always use that You know age-old analogy You can't put the roof on the house Until you've You know built the foundations And built the walls And you take it right But I'm thinking my sister's a career lead In a school She's now helping to Give students now Who are a few years off working But you know just thoughts Ways and how they can What careers they can go into Enrolls that don't exist yet But it's about that resilience And how to get them thinking differently So that when they're presented With roles in the future That you know it's not that Back in the day We knew You know what you want to do Right we knew the Maybe the university course you want to do We knew the career path we were going to take It's not that clear cut now And that is tricky for people Like my sister to think Right how can I do it But it is those coming back to Yeah investing people Invest in those you're now What do they need is You know what resilience What what trading What kind of core things Can she help with To get them prepared for the future So I think Yeah it's kind of an aura Getting that habit of investing in yourself I loved your boss If you gave you time off to the course Because I'm a big believer in that I mean we don't necessarily have the budget To pay for your course But I can give you the time Yeah And I push a lot of you that I'll pay for your exam As well But you know I don't necessarily kind of We can't necessarily fall to pay for you to To do the entire course I'm conscious of time So I'm thinking of Darren Mann And he's quick via round Over to you sir Welcome to the section of the show That we call IT people Our people too So there are absolutely no prizes for you to win Gonna take turns asking you questions There are no buzzers And there's no wrong answers Okay Are you ready? Yes Yes Good That's what we like to see Nicola First one to you It's rude to ask someone How old they are But I can ask you How old do you feel? Ha ha ha Ooh I like that How do I feel? Um I'm glad you asked me Today and not yesterday Because I would have said Do you like about 60 yesterday Because I felt rubbish But yeah And age is just a number right And so Yeah I feel like at the moment Um Yeah Like Do I actually have to give an age If you give a number Give a number 35 Correct answer. Well done. Yens, who was the last person who you sent an actual text message to? Not a WhatsApp, not a messenger, not a telegram, an actual SMS? Oh, I think it must have been the NHS one appointment. Awesome. Correct answer. Nicola, I collect playing cards. I love them, I think they're beautiful. What do you collect? Pictures of me with Tim Hemman. Oh god, it's nice true. She has a dress. She has a dress with her with Tim Hemman. The dress is Tim Hemman all over it. With Tim Hemman. I mean, was really a game wasn't he? I think you were the stalker but there we are. You were just making that way. I was not expecting that. Yens, there is a plate of biscuits in front of you. Hobnob's, custard creams or chocolate digestive. Which one are you picking? Chocolate digesters. Good man, correct answer. Nicola, have you ever successfully built a fire outside? I have. You can talk to me. Yes. Fantastic. Yens, love one for you personally. Have you ever burnt toast? Hi. All the time. Correct answer. Right, so this one's from both of you. Can I come to you first, Nicola? What's the best piece of advice someone ever gave you? Believe in yourself and it's, can I just do it? It's the same person. Believe in yourself and it's okay not to be okay. It blew my mind when he said that. And it was the same person that said to me, we'll pay for your, we'll give you the time off if you pay for your course and hopefully they're joining us in the evening. Fantastic. Yens, best people advice you ever got? Somebody wants to be a, they assume you're never visibly in charge in the top, in the top role because you get so much more things done if you prepare to take it, not to take the credit for it. And that's why I became an insurance. So, so I think I think that was really good advice, get out of the firing line and get stuff done in the back-rons and have you seemed to squat you. I love that. Thank you both for playing. I do people are people too. Job. Well, that's ended the episode. We've had some amazing pieces of information, but before we go, I just want some call to action. Yens, give us your book titles, please, and work on me by it because they are utterly inspirational. Please do tell us about your books. Plug away. What are they called and work on me by them? Because they are amazing. So I've written two books and the last five months, one is called the Living Council. The Living Council looks at public sector reform in a slightly different way. So, as I mentioned earlier, I've thrown away the rulebook and it decays on why change is possible. And then it tells the story of how to build a prevention first AI-native local authority. So that's the first book. And the second book, they come complementary. So they come as a couple, if you like. The second book then takes that theory and the ambition of local government reform into actually practice. It's an implementation guide on how you actually set up a prevention first. Mindset, culture, environments, the process around the technology around it. And how do you do that in a future local state where AI becomes augmented and actually becomes part of your team. So it combines those two things. And four second book, it's called the Anatomy of the Local State. So it takes the journey forward into the future and imagine this is imagining 2030 and how 2030, it might be or should look like or care look like. That's an opportunity using a prevention first thinking and AI-nativity. It also talks about how you are able to create local AI sovereignty, how to build local ecosystems on a richer basis in the UK. And then how do you already create local informants, upskilling your workforce, code design, local solutions and AI with universities, and then how that system as a whole might be look like. These can you send us two signed copies of all? And it's available through Amazon and through pretty much multiple workshops. We'll put the links in the comments. And Nicola, call to action. What are you doing in the loot that you'd like people to engage with? I think collaboration really. So as I'm trying to set up kind of my data team and all the elements really have what I'm doing, but the data team particularly, yeah, you kind of got thoughts around that and I've already had some great chats with people in other councils. So yeah, it's just that collaboration. I love collaboration and how you know, learning from people that are kind of ahead of the curve or can just give some learning. So yeah, that's where I'm at really. And it's bonkers time for just this week. I mean, everyone else talks about having a money, but 40 million in local investment in loot and I think was announced last week or this week and as on top of the 1.7 billion that's coming again. So it's a great time to join Newton Council as well, isn't it? Yeah, 100% honestly. Out of all the last, I know I've been contracting kind of more recently and what have you, but when I look back across, you know, councils have been in this position to be able to actually, I know it's okay, the money is there, not, you know, to go and just spend, to do it wisely, but that there is that we're not quite facing some of the challenges that others are. And genuinely, this is going to sound a bit, but having had the chief executive councilor come to the away day, they were the most inspiring that I've heard for years. And it was, it really got me inspired as well and just that whole kind of mindset, the culture here, everything is great. So yeah, come join. That was inspirational, Darren Mann. What did you gain from today's episode? I love everyone's taken what innovation is and how we deliver it and how we change it and how we challenge it, particularly in challenging times. Nicola Jens, that just driving it forward, thank you ever so much for showing us how you want to drive that innovation forward. How you want to challenge the thinking and that's not just being bullshit. It's working with everyone, working with the outcomes of people in mind, particularly as you said Jens, it's really going to be difficult as we go through LGR. So thank you for sharing that with us. And the learning piece for me, keep learning so that, you know, absolutely make that as a call, your job may go, but you will be retained if you learn and develop greater advice from both Nicola and Jens today. So next episode, we will have this Socrates and President Nadira Hussein and City of London's Sam Collins. He'll be joining us for the next podcast of Have You Raised a Ticket. And then Darren, give the socials. You can find us on LinkedIn, you can find us on YouTube, you can find us on Spotify. Click like, click subscribe, listen to us over and over, tell your friends we want to hear from you. We love the fact that we keep getting phone calls. I just listen to your podcast. You sound so professional. We're still learning. Down to all David, Clack, our amazing producer. The magician that is David makes us sound so good and thank you for it, David. But also Nicola Jens, thank you for joining us on this journey. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much. Next time you'll hear our very dear friends, Nadira and Sam on. Have You Raised a Ticket?