Thunder Even the Series at 1! Adjustments for Both Sides and East Preview. Plus, Kevin Harlan on His Iconic Career!

Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, the Thunder, even the Western conference finals against the Spurs. It got a little dicey there at the end. There was a corner three. They could have got down to two with more than a minute to go. Boy, wouldn't have that have been fun. What did the Thunder do on both ends of the floor to get back in this series? Massive adjustments on both ends of the floor. A lot of Isaiah Hardenstein, a lot of hair pulling, a violent dunk that we'll talk about about. By Steph Kassel, just these games are between these two teams, holy smokes, the level of play, the level of intensity. And unfortunately, injuries beginning to be a part of the story, Jalen Williams and Dylan Harper, both leave game two, prognosis unclear for game three. Darren Fox did not play. Game two, we'll talk about the injuries, how they'll impact the series, Jason Tim from Hooft tonight is here to go over all of that. And what to expect in game three, like the adjustments, the adjustments, the data adjustments, and these two teams are going to test each other and make each other stretch further than any other opponent could. Quickie, we get to Nick's calves. I'm headed to Madison Square Garden for game two tonight. Game one, whoa, game one was a thing. Game one, not the finest moment for the Cleveland Cavaliers and Kenny Atkinson and James Harden and on and on. Can the cabs respond? We go quickly on what we saw in game one, what adjustments we might see in game two. And then Kevin Harlan is here to just be fun. Just talking basketball, talking words, talking language, talking iconic broadcast stuff. Why have them on now? Because his time at Amazon for the season, just ended Amazon Prime scuverage is over for the season. So we reflect on that and just the NBA in general, he's got some free time. I said, why not bring a legendary voice on that's all coming up next on the Zach Lo Show. Because Zach Lo Show is brought to you by Fandall, the conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down, take your shot with Fandall and get closer to the action. Fandall is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the Fandall sports book app now and play your game, 210 over in president's select states, 18 or over in DC can talk to our own and gambling problem called 1 800 gambler. Call 1 888 7 8 9 7 7 7 7 7 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. Welcome to the Zach Lo Show, it's Thursday morning. I'm headed back to the world's most famous arena for game two of whatever the hell that was that happened in game one of Nick's Cavs. But before we do that, we got to download game two last night, thunder spurs, the thunder even it up. 1 1. Look who's here for the first time. Jason Timff of Hoops tonight just grinding every night with videos that you have to watch. One of the guys I always say, if you want to know what happened in the game, not who's legacy is on the line and who choked and who stepped up under pressure. But like actually what happened in the game and also some of that other stuff. Jason Timff and Hoops tonight, part of the volume, great podcast network shout out calling Coward. How are you doing bud? Zach, it's an absolute honor to be here and I can't imagine a more fun playoff series to break down with you than this epic spurs thunder one. It's been pretty epic so far. I would say before we get into the nitty gritty of game two, thunder make a whole pile of adjustments. A lot of stuff happens. It gets a little hairy at the end. They miss a hammer or three. They ran hammer. Whenever the spurs run hammer, I shout hammer to nobody. Like no one's in my office and hammer or like one of the assistant coaches on the bench would have cut it to two at the end of the game, but it missed and then a step on castle had his ninth turnover of the night to basically end the game. But we'll get all to all that. There are two defining features of this series through two games and to me anyway. And perhaps going forward, one is unfortunately becoming injuries and it's nine in the morning. We don't know what is the prognosis for Dylan Harper who left with a hamstring strain or hamstring something last night in the third quarter leaving the spurs with one of their three lead ball handlers. We don't know what the prognosis is for Jalen Williams who after a pretty good game one following a long layoff due to a hamstring strain that is messed up his whole season left the game again. In the second quarter, I guess at the end of the first quarter, it never appeared again. Porzora Stevenson just chasing people around court orders at the Pay Com Center trying to get injury updates. And of course, the air in Fox with the high ankle sprain hasn't played at all in this series. And just zooming way out. I think it's pretty clear the spurs can win this series with two of their three guards. If Harper's out and Fox plays, they can win. If Fox is out and Harper plays, they can win four times in seven games. Not just like win another game. They can win the whole series. They almost came back in one last night with just Castle of the three of them available. Jason, I before we get to my second major theme of the series, I don't think this spurs can win with two of them out. If Harper's out and Fox is out and it's just left with Castle to do everything and then oh my god, what happens when he rests? We have to bring in Jordan McLaughlin and who made two, three is last night. I think that's the critical mass line where I mean, I guess anything's possible on being a little hyperbolic. I don't think this spurs can win three more games if those two, if they're without two of those three guards and all the games. Yeah, I think the same goes for OKC to we didn't even mention AJ Mitchell seemed to have some sort of weird thing happened with his quad at the end of the game to where I'm watching the replay waiting to see like it maybe caught an elbow or a knee and it didn't seem like he did. So I don't we obviously don't know what any of that means. But I think for both of these teams being, I saw some tweet before you continue about. He told one of the beat reporters, I think I'm good. And I just got hit in the quad. So that's why I didn't mention him. That's good news. And before you continue, I should have also said, I do think like I don't let yes, I don't think the spurs can win the series without two of those three guards, even if Jalen Williams is out for the rest of the series. I think Jalen Williams out versus two guards of the spurs out, Oklahoma City wins the series other than that. I don't even know. But yeah, please continue. The injuries just suck, obviously. I totally agree just simply because the main dynamic that I've noticed so far through the first two games is that when the spurs take care of the basketball, they have like a physically overwhelming quality that starts with Wembee, but it extends to the guards like that one of the main things that stood out to me on the film is just how often Steph Castle and Dylan Harper as well, just bully through some of these smaller OKC guards to get two feet in the paint. Chets rim protection has been a borderline non factor. Same goes for Isaiah Hartenstein when these guards are driving. And that's kind of shown in the in the line of data, like when Vacelle, Champagne, Harper, Castle and Wembee are on the floor so far in 41 minutes, they're plus 18. And when that group takes care of the basketball and they get into half court and they run their stuff, they get usually something that is either a high quality catch and shoot three or two feet in the paint type of good look for one of their guards. It's the turnovers where it's gone the other direction like they we have a 55 to 27 points off a turnovers advantage for OKC through two games. And so I think that's where to the point about the critical mass, there's a certain amount of these Steph Castle turnovers that are like classic young guy turnovers where that he's been making all season, right? Like a lot of those like get two feet in the paint and then throw pass into someone's hands or get a little too cute with the dribble, but I feel like a good third of these Steph Castle turnovers have been a product of just outrageous usage. That's been foisted on him as a product of the injuries. And I feel like this is the case for every ball handler in the league. When you go way up in usage, it causes these like mental fatigue turnovers where you're just trying to buy a possession of rest here or there by like that cutter looks like he might be open. If I just throw it, maybe we'll get something and I won't have to drive or I won't have to force something physically. And I think there's been a lot of that kind of stuff with Steph. We're getting deer and fox back would be huge. And Fox doesn't quite have the physical imposition of Harper like look at how many times Harper just dusted Ludo or either by turning the corner on him or or plowing through his chest or just in general forcing his way to the basket. But he got several clean looks at little mid range pull ups that he's missed. And I think Fox, even though he won't have the same physical imposition, he's a little bit more steady as a ball handler and he has that mid range pull up that he can go to as a counter. So it's a different type of player, but I think Fox would be able to fill that role enough to where Dylan had to miss her game or two they'd be able to kind of fill those gaps. And the Spurs by the way are so good. And obviously they're all the way ready to win the championship now like they're a championship caliber team immediately. We've known that for months, but they've proven it already in the playoffs. I think they they could win the series. If they had all their guards healthy and Jalen Williams was out like that's the way that balance is on that it like I think the thunder need all hands on deck to win against the full strength Spurs, but you mentioned Harper and Castle and the bully ball. I mean, when Harper just went through Ludo in the first quarter of the game and laid the ball in, I had to pause for a second, be like that's Ludo, that's not like Shay who's a little skinny. Obviously a good defender. That's like a walking cinder block that Dylan Harper, a 20 year old rookie guard, just like, no, I'll just go right through him and make him back pedal out of bounds and lay the ball up. Castle does that to everybody four times a game. He also had that one. It was a pick. It was a two man game with Wembee, where they trailed over the screen with somebody. I don't remember who it was. And he just pinned the guy on his back like. freaking Chris Paul, but big slow dribble, slow dribble, shed it in and then rose up for shed it is not a word. Shed him and rose up for like a 15 foot pick and roll long to that look just like a like a 29 year old in his prime. Better employment card and of course we probably should have led the show with an act of basketball violence so audacious that I screamed in my office when Steph Castle absolutely obliterated Isaiah Hardenstein. Isaiah Hardenstein was critical to the thunder and game two. We're gonna talk about all the adjustments they made putting him on Wembee and all of that and just having him beat the hell out of Wembee. I mean, that dunk is up there with the nastiest and most violent dunks I've ever seen. I mean, off the top of my head, I could not think of one that was like definitively more just strictly violent than that. Something about the way Castle cocks the ball back on those dunks about how high he is he's like above the defender. So he's dunking on their face on top of their head and the violence of his follow through the speed of his follow through. It was a legit like active violent. I remember when Ant Edwards had won over John Collins where John Collins was literally injured by an Anthony Edwards dunk that was pretty violent. I think this was even more violent than that. So violent that a Hardenstein had to take revenge by pulling his hair like like a freaking schoolyard like elementary school Brawl. We had hair pulling later in the game. But yeah, these guards are absolutely incredible. That dunk. I just wanted to luxuriate in that dunk for a couple more minutes. That was just unbelievable. Yeah, just about every time this spurs run double drag, they get the defense and rotation and they get a pretty decent look. And that was another example of that. They kind of got the defense and rotation. There were several attacks in the same possession and it kind of resulted in this runway for Steph to get into his one, two. And then he just I think it's been one of the funniest subplots of these first two games, whether it's there's this weird thing with Chet that I'm noticing where like he's almost like we're lying on verticality too much around the basket. And it's like I kind of wish you bow a little bit more, like be a little bit more handsy and physical around the rim because there have been several times where the spurs guards are just playing off of two feet around Chet at the at the basket and are able to kind of finish around him. Yeah, it kind of just stands. He just stands up with his hands up, which is like good. He's not going to foul and he's very tall. But even Kelden Johnson had a couple of sequences of offensive rebounds where he just went up miss up miss. And Chet is standing there and he's an obstacle. But he's not preventing Kelden Johnson for getting the ball back over and over again and finally finishing one. Exactly. And so I think that's kind of one of those next phases of development for Chet, which is like bring a little bit more physicality to your rim protection, especially for this matchup. Because it's very clear again through two games that like there was a take that I think it was it was either Dylan or Steph. So many of their takes look similar because there's such power guard takes. But one of them a transition take Heart and Stine's back. And he's at the rim. And he just jumped in, hit him with his right shoulder and finished with his left hand at the basket relatively easily. There's definitely a certain amount of a certain amount of like they see food when they see Isaiah or Chet at the basket. And that's that's one of those like kind of interesting dynamics where, you know, I'm not going to see it or pretend like the Thunder don't have advantages. They were absolutely capable of being up to O in this series. But one of the things that's kind of stood out to me is like no matter what OKC does scheme wise, there's a certain physical advantage that the spurs guards have to get to feet in the paint, which I think is a relatively reliable thing for them and their shot quality over the course of the series. Well, you mentioned the turnovers. I mean, the recipe for their success in the regular season against Oklahoma City was one like ripple effect of having all of these ball handlers is no one has to do too much. We have a lot of skill on the perimeter, not just size and speed and athleticism, but skill and craft. And we can take care of the ball against the defense where most teams don't have as much ball handling as we do. Don't have as many skilled experienced ball handlers. They can't take care of the ball and the spurs can. And they didn't be yesterday. So I mentioned injuries and there's just not much to say about that. Everyone will get their MRIs today or whatever it will learn in the afternoon when I'm on the way to MSG probably. But the other just sort of general thing from this series for me is just the sheer desperation that both teams are showing out of possession by possession basis. And that is like that is like manifesting to me in three different ways. Number one is tactically, these coaches are just not wasting any time just throwing entire strategies in the garbage can and just unveiling new entire strategies like right off the bat stuff that they may not have used the entire season. It gets disappointed or any other point. That's what we'll dig into later. It's manifesting in just massive lineup shifts. So the thunder last night played these two line ups. And I mentioned after game one, I think they're just going to have to play more shooting on the floor the way the spurs are swarming Shay and daring guys to shoot. We saw less dork. We didn't see much of crews so in dork together. We saw more McCain. And so these these two line ups, Mitchell, Shay, Kason Wallace, just fantastic game. Leslie McCain and Chet that lineup played three minutes last night in one game played three minutes, not much played one possession in the regular season according to cleaning the glass. And the similar lineup, AJ, Shay, Caruso, McCain, Chet, six minutes last night, plus five, six minutes. Not much, it's not like much. It's half a quarter, it's an eighth of a game. Two possessions in the entire regular season. Jared McCain, you know, out of the rotation in the first round, there's this whole, because Darrell Mory going to get fired. Does this trade the reason he's going to get fired? He's out of the rotation is like, oh, look at all. Jared McCain, big deal is out of the rotation. Comes back in the rotation and the Laker series does pretty well. Darrell Mory gets fired and it's like, oh, but Jared McCain, like he had some nice playoff moments. Now it's like, is Jared McCain going to swing the NBA championship? Is that the end game of this portrait? Is Darrell Mory gets fired? And Jared McCain not only plays like real minutes in the playoffs, but becomes an incredible swing player. And then the third way, the desperation manifests. And this is where you and I probably are just loving this, is just the effort level of the urgency on every possession. Like some of these offensive rebounds. Kason Wallace and Kelden Johnson jostled for one. The Kason Wallace just shoved his way inside position and got one and it resulted in a he made a three. Kelden Johnson screaming in for an offensive rebound and a put back to bring the spurs within six. At the end of just every, the urgency with which every loose ball is chased. Every two on one is contested from behind. It's just a full on desk. You could almost hear it. It's like, it's like a, if the game could make a sound, it would be just a continuous scream of desperate urgency. They both these teams understand, I have met an equal. I have met a peer. This team can beat me. This team can send me home every single possession, every single loose ball must be approached with like a thousand percent urgency. And then you have guys that are also doing stuff out of their comfort zone because this equal, this peer takes all the stuff that's easy for us away. And suddenly Lou Dort has to drive and take mid range jumpers. Suddenly, Kelden Johnson has to set screens in the pick and roll and make plays out of the short roll in the four on three because that's the best offense they have. That's the surprise attack. And they got, if you remember, a quick three for Champeni with like three minutes left in the game that I think would have cut it to two that he may be, maybe to three, I can't remember that. He missed off of that Kelden Johnson action. That all of that is just, it's just such great theater. And yet you also wonder, is the sheer effort level required? The sheer speed and athleticism, having some impact on these legs, strain injuries that are happening. But outside of that, to watch these two teams who beat the shit out of everyone all season have to dig this deep against each other is just unbelievable sports theater. - They're both so well coached that they both have such a great understanding of the value of each individual possession. And I mean, we've seen like game one, San Antonio has a 10-point lead in the fourth quarter. And O.K.C. comes all the way back. Last night, San, O.K.C. had a 10-point lead with like two minutes left. And if Devon Vassel hits that corner, three in the left corner, we have ourselves a two-point game. - I'm sitting there watching that being like, is this happening? Dig a up 10. Vassel hits a three. Shame is, they go into pre-vent offense a little bit to ThunderDew. Shame misses a long two. Victor gets an immediate baseline spin move post-up score. It's down to five. Shay commits the hook offensive foul. With like, and then there's like, oh my God, there's a minute and a half left in the game. Is this happening? Anyway, so I just like was was giddy watching this like stretch run. - You're right, it's like it's like bucket stop bucket. We got ourselves OT again. Like it was crazy watching and I think like what the, I would actually argue that the kind of depth advantage for O.K.C. is kind of barred out here early. You mentioned the lineup data. I talked earlier about how the spur starters are playing awesome. But they've played 41 minutes together. There is not a single O.K.C lineup. That's played 10 minutes yet in the series. Like in totality through the first two games. It was one of the crazier stats that I saw when I was digging into the data. So as a result, there are four spurs players that have cracked 80 minutes already. The only player in a Thunder Jersey who has cracked 70 minutes is Shay. And so as a result, there is a fatigue advantage that I think is going towards O.K.C. And I thought you could really tell, starting in that late third into that fourth, there was a lot of 50/50 balls that started to go towards O.K.C. And I thought one of the pivotal sequence-- well, frankly, the pivotal sequence of the game is Harrison Barnes hits. that corner three that cuts it to 79, 77. And then we get the jump ball. And it's Steph Castle versus AJ Mitchell, or excuse me, versus, versus Jared McCain. And Jared McCain just barely gets like enough of a disruption of the first tap that it forces Steph to tap at a second time in the opposite direction away from Wembee, which leads to the thunder getting the ball back. I can't remember who it is, but a thunder player gets a three. And he misses the first one. And in case and walls comes flying in and beats. It's not Wallace. It's Wallace that gets the offense. Yeah, that's the one I was mentioning earlier of like these just urgent, like just complete balls to the wall offensive rebound pursuits. Yeah, exactly. And it ends up being worked back around for the big three that case and hits off of the right wing. And then they go down to the other and I think Wembee ends up missing a wide open three, which again, he got a couple of really good looks down the stretch, which I think we're could very well be fatigue related as well. But then they go down and that's when Alex Cruz so kind of snakes through the lane and heart and science. That's the Gortat screen and then Crucio pump Bakes and gets that little that little shot. And like there was a certain amount of Wembee himself who was literally energizer bunny in game one. It was unbelievable how he kept finding the reserves to get what he needed to get done. But I thought Wembee really started to show his fatigue on the offensive glass against Heart and Stein down the stretch and just like kind of giving up inside position and getting pinned a few too many times. And that is as we move towards the San Antonio at home portion of the series. Obviously, Deere and Fox being out and Dylan Harper being out requires you to lean on some unconventional groups and you know, like for instance, the reason why they had to go to that matchup zone is that was a Harrison Barnes Jordan McLaughlin group so they didn't really have the perimeter defense personnel to handle the kinds of switching that they were doing up top in guarding Shay. So like there's a certain amount of like yeah, the injuries played a role. But I would argue as this series goes with the level of exertion that both teams are using and how much Mitch Johnson's relying on his starting group because he knows they have the advantage. I do think it's going to be a kind of a fatigue war of attrition advantage towards OKC. And it's something to at least keep an eye on as we move forward. For sure. And just if you had to boil that down to one stat, 86 minutes with Wembee on the floor, the spurs are plus 17, 20 minutes with Wembee on the bench, the spurs are minus 19. That's that's basically not the whole series, but that's a lot of the series. All right, let's dig into what we saw in game two that was different from game one and what that may portend for game three in San Antonio on, I don't even know what is it tomorrow. It's every other day the rest of the way I guess. Yeah, the days are just the days now cease to exist. Like everyone's excited from Memorial Day weekend. I'm like Memorial Day weekend is just Eastern conference game, Western conference game. They're just East games and West games. Those are the days. Oklahoma City put up 124 points per 100 possessions last night. They're best offensive game. I think of the season against the spurs and a very strong offensive game period. Part of that was they just shot better. Shay made more of the like you're not going to get a lot of decent looking floaters and mid-range dumpers. You better make most of the ones that you do get and you made them. And in transition, they didn't get as many opportunities, but they were much more efficient in transition. But I think and we talked about how they just played sort of better offensive lineups to combat the spurs defense. But I do think there were some tactical adjustments that they made and that's your bread and butter. So what did you see that helped loosen up the offense for the thunder other than just play better offensive guys and make more shots? So the obvious one is obviously Heart and Stein on Wembee. I think one of the things that it does is it creates just a little bit more like a foot or two closer mid-range opportunity on those kind of pick and roll sequences than you're going to see when Wembee has more ability to kind of stunt upwards and kind of make them second guests themselves as they get closer to the basket. I mean, even that Alex Kuru so little foul that we talked about late in the game as he's kind of coming through the lane when Heart and Stein sets the core Todd screen like Kuru so shooting basically a lefty floater from like four feet from the basket. That's a shot that they weren't getting when Heart and Stein was off the floor, right? Because of how much more Wembee could kind of range around the basket. I think that there's a million trickle down effects of the Heart and Stein piece. When you bail on him as fast as Mark did, it fundamentally alters the physical profile of your lineups. Now all of a sudden you're just tiny compared to the Spurs team. Whereas when Heart and Stein's out there, you have much more of a fighting chance. Fighting fighting is a good word because he figured out how much we weigh the officials we're going to give him and he used every inch of it the rest of the enemy meal. Like that was as physical as you will see one player play against Wembee. Yeah, it was and that honestly is going to be one of the most interesting swings of the series as we move towards San Antonio because there's a version of that game officiating wise where we're Heart and Stein fouls out pretty quick or ends up in foul trouble pretty quick. And I wouldn't be surprised if if something like that happens as we head into game three. But obviously you go from 61 to 40 rebounding advantage to 45 to 41. We talked about the closer mid ranges as a as a team. They were six for 15 from mid range in game one. They were 10 for 15 in game two. It's a pretty sizable difference. The Caruso and Case and Wallace just making every single catch and shoot the read that they get their 17 for 29 from 3 so far in the series. That's just an absolutely crazy number. Sure. Alex. So this is just what's going to happen in the playoffs with him. I guess just did the bigger the game gets he just this is what he does. Yeah. I think there's a part of that cumulative wear and tear effect on on Wembee. The inside seals that Wembee just torched OKC within game one are gone. Now like he's not getting yet that one post up late in the game. But he's not getting anywhere near as many shot attempts close to the basket. I think heart and sign has a really good ability to even when when he's trying to drive to kind of use his physical leverage to regain control of Wembee. Even when Wembee gets a little bit of an angle on a move. Now Wembee countered that by basically like I'm just going to throw it up at the rim and then I'll follow it. Yeah. We'll talk about that into the floor. Dig me into dig me into the thunder offensive a bit more because because heart and steam playing art and sign playing more means Wembee is guarding a traditional center in a traditional defense more than he's just playing a one man Wembee zone on the back line which you're still he could still do with heart and steam on the floor. But when he they have a traditional center they're just generally going to put him on the center and it's just the game looks more for lack of a better term normal for for the thunder offense. Yeah. And it allows them to get into like a lot of the like the Chicago action that they were running for Shay coming out of the corner where he's getting into his traditional kind of like curling around the action with Wembee sitting in a drop cover which creates some very similar reads. It creates the similar like spacing sequences with the way that they wheel off the ball that which is helping them generate like they're they generate a 26 more unguarded catch and shoot jump shots last night after 26 and game one. So they're generating just a boat load of really high quality threes. There's I think a couple of the things you mentioned the line up structure a lot more AJ Mitchell and Jared McCain alongside Shay and those groups are just performing extremely well in large part because you're getting more of these drive and kick sequences where you're getting multiple attacks on the same possession and that is resulting in higher shot quality across the board as well. I just thought on between the the moving Shay to attack out of the corner more frequently and then Isaiah Hartenstein just being able to clear more space around the basket set better screens as well like it just created a lot of like you said more traditional attacks for them that match what they were doing for the most part in the regular season which can affect your rhythm and can affect like how confident the guys are in the offense. I also I thought I talked about this after game one and it sounds counterintuitive it's like I wonder if they just need to go at Wembee more and I thought they actually did that I mean Chris Finch talked about this a lot in the Minnesota series like we can't just be afraid of him we have to go at him at the rim because there are trickle down effects of that there are fouls there are offensive rebounds when he goes up and challenges a shot and even if he gets it and AJ Mitchell went at him on a couple of floaters where he was the help defender and they got a big offensive rebound from Hartenstein late in the game. Jay Dub drove at him for a mid-range to Coruso drove at him for a foul and they put him in and they didn't actually they did not put him in as many like pick and rolls as I thought when I watched the game I looked at the tracking data it's about a normal amount of he's guarding the screener in the pick and roll but I thought they just they weren't as afraid of him and I think that's the approach that you have to have I also thought I wonder I'd have to rewatch it because you were hinting at before it's sometimes like confusing to figure out what kind of defense this verse are in is it is straight is it just a straight-up zone is it a everyone else plays man-to-man and Wembee just does whatever he wants wait cornets on the floor what are they doing I did think they got a little too cute at times in the game playing these hybrid zone whatever they're doing particularly with cornette on the floor I just some there were times where like Chet was left open in the corner and it didn't seem like they knew that Chet was going to be open in the corner and they had these desperate closeouts Chet got a dunk Chet drew a foul there were some swing swings sequences that were opened up because again it was the cornette minutes it's not the Wembee minutes and they were playing some sort of zone and the middle was just wide open like they just threw the ball to Chet in the middle and it was panic rotation rotation there was the one that I just couldn't figure out what was happening where Wembee was in the game and he was playing zone and Jalen Williams was in the right corner and they threw the ball to Jalen Williams and Wembee who was closest to him instead of closing out over there waved for Dylan Harper to run all the way across the court. To go. close out on Joe and Williams. Joe and Williams makes it three. Wendy's like screaming at Dylan Harper. And I'm like, I guess that was Dylan Harper's job. I don't really understand why it was Dylan Harper's. I just thought the Spurs were getting a little too cute with their zone stuff and they sprung some leaks that were like really they just didn't, if they just played normal defense, they wouldn't be springing those kind of leaks. - Yeah, I think Sean Swinney would obviously be able to explain it far better than we could attempt to. But I think what they're trying to do is keep the big on the weak side corner no matter what. And essentially waveswitch to whoever, like if anybody ever cuts through to that strong side, they're trying to wave through. And like that's what's so kind of confusing about the whole thing is you have that play that you just talked about where Wembee gets pissed off 'cause Dylan doesn't go to the corner whoever it was that didn't run out to the corner. But then you also have that play where check out the end one where Casey Wallace cuts through and goes to the weak side. And for some reason Harrison Barnes just follows him over there and then Luke Cornett is confused 'cause Luke Cornett, I think Luke Cornett started the possession on Casey Wallace. Casey Wallace cut through to the weak side and Chet standing in the corner who was Harrison Barnes's man. Like Harrison Barnes is the guy guarding Chet to start the possession. And then Casey cuts through and for whatever reason Harrison just follows him. And again, the ball was on the left side of the court. And so I thought the exact same thing. I thought like it's very clear that what they're trying to do is keep their biggs at the rim as much as possible. Like even at the expense of giving up wide open breeze. But it just puts this incredibly intense like awareness pressure and rotation pressure on the Spurs role players off of the center position. I think it's just really difficult. And I think I agree with you. I think there's a certain amount of like maybe a little bit more conventionality could help at least cut that 26 open catch and shoot threes might be a few too many to give up to a team. And in OK, see you frankly all season long a shot really well on the wide open looks. Yeah, I guess my just general and this is the very dumb down takeaway is I think with Wembee just you do whatever you want. It doesn't even matter. He's you play him in a one man's or whatever. I found myself wanting them to just play normal defense when Cornett was on the floor. Like I don't think Cornett is just powerful a weapon like that. Where I'm like, Oh, just have him play a one man. So I was just like, can you just play a regular man to man? Like there was even the one where Chet got I think was in the fourth quarter. He kind of trailed the play and transition and just caught the ball in the paint with nobody on him and made like a leaning floater. That was an end one. And it was because they just didn't they didn't know who was matching up with him. And you just like walked into open space. So that was that side of the ball. Let's take a quick break. And then we'll talk about where I think there were even more adjustments by the thunder on the other side of the ball. This episode is brought to you by eBay. I've been hearing people talking about selling on eBay a lot lately. And honestly, I get it. We all have stuff that no longer fits our lives. And for what I hear, selling on eBay is actually really easy. Just snap a few photos, write a description, set your price. Suddenly, the stuff that's just been sitting around is in front of millions of buyers already searching for what's next, find what you love. So what you don't on eBay. All right, let's talk about the thunder defense because I think they made even more changes on that end than they did in game one. On the one hand, it felt like they worked in part because when Banyama did not get nearly as many shots at the rim in game one, 72% of his attempts were at the rim according to cleaning the glass in game two, 31% of his attempts were at the rim. On the other hand, the spurs put up a better offensive rating. They didn't game one by a lot. A lot of it is just jump shooting. They made their long twos and they made a lot more threes or they shot, you know, much better on threes. But obviously the number one adjustment was we're not, we're not getting too cute and putting our wings on when Banyama. We're just going to guard him with our centers and that's going to be heart and scene and that's going to be Chet a matchup that we've avoided. We're just going to play regular man-to-man big versus big defense. And we're going to drop back on the pick and roll because it because that's what we're going to do and we're going to they tried to go under more on screens against Castle and Harper, which I think was smart. They can't always do it. The spurs are very good at preventing you from doing that. But I think they just decided, look, here's the trade off we're making. When we put wings on when B, we can switch a lot and try to come up this in Antonio offense that way and we lose that ability. But we're trading that for we just have to keep him away from the rim. And they showed us in game one that when we do have wings on him and we do switch wing to wing, he's just going to roll. And they're just going to throw the ball to him and he's going to get the ball and he's going to get offensive rebounds. He's going to live at the basket. And I think that largely changed the shot diet the way that the funder wanted it to. We saw him like checkstrap him back, heart and scenes dropping back. The roles to the rim are just not there in the same way. They're there. He can roll and he has gravity and he's opening up three for other people. But he's not getting those easy catches where he just lords over the rim and just catches above everybody else. I thought that adjustment essentially did what was intended to do to the point that I'm already wondering that the next question is, all right. So if you're if you're Mitch Johnson and you know that you're seeing a more traditional defense potentially in game three, how do I get when be loose at the rim again? So did you see the same thing and then what is your answer to that question if you're Mitch Johnson? Yeah. Fundamentally, it was a completely different basketball game for the spurs on offense. Yeah. It was crazy. It was crazy. Yeah. And like, and I thought it was the right call from Dagnall because like, Caruso was the guy that had the most success against Wembee in game one. And I thought Wembee looked way more comfortable against Jada. But then down the stretch of the game, we had those two duckins and it was like, oh, man, did Wembee figure out Caruso too now? We just have to basically have him duck in from the dunker spot. And so I thought it was the right move. I think it also allows Caruso to do what he does best, which is just rec havoc on the perimeter as a defender. And I thought that he played a big role in like the turnover forcing element of this game with their perimeter defense. And that, that to me is like one of the big parts of, of, of having Heart and Stein on Wembee is it just allows you to have your biggest, most physical perimeter defenders deployed on these big physical guards, which I, like, Caruso frankly should be deployed on one of Castle or Harper because of what they're giving up in size when they put him on Wembee. Because now you have to use one of your smaller guards on one of those guys. I think, you know, one of the most interesting dynamics of the game as it progressed was the way that Mitch Johnson was trying to get Heart and Stein off of Wembee through different types of screening actions. And I still think they're getting pretty good looks every time they run double drag. So I'd like to see them keep doing that. They broke out that like Sacramento Kings deer and Fox, like, let's just set pinch screens on both sides of, of, of Castles. He's dribbling up the floor and they did that at several points in the game at one point even beyond half court on a play that's, that's one of the things I mean where, like, you can design your old defense to get under screens against Steph Castle. They're going to have a bunch of different counters that make it hard. One of them is, wait, which screen is he using? Why is there, why are there two screeners that have court? What's happening? There's 22 on the shot clock. And I'm backpedaling and I'm already navigating his screen. Like, it's just hard to do that. It's hard to get under. Like I said the other day, we've come a long way from, all right, we're going to duck rage on round those screens like five times on the same possession at the foul line. Like it's just teams of offenses. We've gotten way smarter about counter about preventing you from doing that. No, absolutely. I liked the off ball action. They got into this one in the fourth quarter and they got a great look out of it twice. Wide open three for Wembee and then under the basket cut for Steph Castle. But they basically just had, you know, one of the other spurs guards on the right wing with the ball have Wembee start with the, or have a Steph Castle start on the left wing and then they just had Wembee come up and set a back screen for him. And basically taking advantage of the idea that, like, Hortonstein doesn't want to leave Wembee. And the first time they did it, both Caruso and, uh, and Hortonstein stayed with Wembee and Steph Castle got wide open underneath the basket. They ran it again late in the game and both Caruso and Hortonstein went with Steph and the left Wembee wide open over there on the left wing. And so I think like a certain amount of just if Hortonstein is going to literally be like up underneath Wembee, like with two hands on him, start using Wembee as a screener. I know it sounds crazy as a, as a five, but like that's literally what Steph Curry's been doing his whole career, taking advantage of the face guarding and the hugging off ball by setting screens and, and, and just kind of taking advantage of the different openings that can come that way. I do, I do think one of the most important dynamics is Wembee in pick and roll, especially getting a hit on the screen because that does force Hortonstein to detach because there was that little right shoulder fade he hit, like early third quarter, that kind of reminded me of the imbeid ISOs where you get a good screen, Hortonstein has to help on the, uh, in the drop. That opens up Wembee in the pocket. Now he's separated from Hortonstein and can get into his bag a little bit. And when you get into his bag, I know that shot you're talking about. This is straight pick and roll. Hortonstein doesn't want to help, but he does a little bit because Wembee hammers him on the screen. And I think in game three, I could, I see also Wembee just like, I'm going to start slipping screens real hard if you're, if you get, and get to the rim. But any, any catches at the foul line and Hortonstein's back in front of him. Anyway, well, that's a win for the Thunder, like he's not at the rim. And then he makes this like turn around jump shot, you're like, wow, I still think it's kind of a win for the Thunder, but if this 75 guys going to be making these imbeid/dirk slash whenever turn around 18 footers, like, okay, all right, Vic. Yeah, and like we mentioned earlier, sometimes he's just driving at him and putting something up on the glass and and following it it like thank God for AJ Mitchell on the box out on that last one. That was one of the big plays in the game too because the spurs were on a little bit of a run at that point, but I still came away from that game feeling like it's it's very much a get into your stuff run one of your more sophisticated pick and roll actions and play advantage basketball off of that, you know, and there's there's reads that they miss and there's turnovers that they have like dirt. There were times where they get when be separated because Hartonsign had to show and he'd slip and he'd have like, I say a Joe or some smaller thunder guard on him and he'd be standing there with his arms up like begging for the basketball and they would just like miss the opportunity and that's what's so funny with these windows with the thunder like the windows are there for a split second like there was a they ran stack early in the game and Julian champ penny was wide open at the top of the key and they missed him on the first read. They threw it to him a second later and they were able to close out the advantage is gone. And so so much of it is like with this spurs team, the possessions where they execute and they don't turn the basketball over and they identify the read and they make it, they get a great shot. Well, it's just so many times like and this is another part of having crews so out on the perimeter is there's more size on the ball more disruption on the ball. So those reads are tougher to make, but when they pressure the ball enough to force deflections to force those passes to be a little bit off like the Devin Vasell hammer action, Steph Castle, there's a little bit of a contest at the rim that forced him to kind of go wide with the pass and he threw it too far to Devin Vasell's left and it funneled him behind the backboard and then Vasell hits the corner of the backboard on the three. And so so much of it is like this is just how good OKC defense is and there is that desperation because all their role players are playing manageable minute loads and they can go out there and play as hard as they can for the entire stretch, but like I think we'll see, we'll continue to see those double drags, those pinch screens, we'll see the back screens from Wembee off the ball. I do think and let me know what you think about this that because I was thinking the shot quality sky rockets and heart and signs off the floor because it creates a more similar dynamic to what we saw in game one. And after he picked up heart and signs fourth foul on the lob, they had to go back to to J will and Wembee just fry J will just over and over again, just fried him one on one and trailing the play with threes. If he can get heart and sign off the floor, his job just gets so much easier. So even though it might not necessarily be the best shot, I wonder if they need to explore or Wembee isos against heart and sign more to try to just like bring the whistle into the equation. I essentially like forced the issue by like get a little bit of an angle and then really try to force your way through heart and sign shoulder. Maybe you can get a little grifty if that's what you got to do like and just try to find a way to get heart and sign off of more and foul trouble. I do think that's one of the counters we'll see to Biggs on Wembee traditional defenses. Set them some cross screens, get them in the post on the move, like get just play like a traditional big a little bit more in that sense and maybe that that has the same the same effect. Yeah, the chess match is going to be super nerds. You mentioned the J will the Wembee sequence in the third quarter. I mean, it's just, it's so stark and so frightening, even as a neutral observer when after holding any great player, but Wembee in particular because it's both ends of the floor. In slight check, you realize like three minutes into this sequence, oh, we've entered the point of the game where he's just going to single-handedly dominate the game for like eight minutes and that was the third quarter as the spurs got back into the game where he makes a three. He has the drive offensive rebound. It was like, it was Wembee saying, okay, you're taking away the rim touches and the paint touches. I'll just go outside in now. I'll hit a three all drive and I'll I might miss, but I'm going to get the offensive rebound with one hand and dunk it all in one motion. If you help, I'm going to drive and kick over here to Devon of the Cell for a corner three. I'll dominate the game this way and I'll still be dominating the game defensively and his rim protection. Everybody knows, but he's just no one has ever been so good. Like Alajuan was really good at this, but it's a different level. I call it like the spin pivot block where he's in one place and the ball moves and he spins back and blocks another another player in a different place. He just makes these double rotations so fast and that was the third quarter, all that was happening. The other thing you mentioned hugging him, like they're doing the thing and you see this every once in a while on great, great big man. You see it against Yokech where there was there are pick and rolls like it's just say castle Wembee where heart and steam does not leave Wembee at all. He just stays hugged on him and there was one in the first half where castle is is going around the screen and heart and steam is already signaling behind him. Hey, someone else has to come meet castle at the rim because I'm not leaving this this 75 guy that's setting the screen someone else has to be there and you see the foul on Shay, right? Shay comes late. Yeah. Shay comes late and Steph tries to dunk on and it's and Shay eats a foul and like I think if you know that that's coming for the spurs, you can get a little bit more aggressive driving wise, but that's like the ultimate nod of respect to a big man is you set a screen. We're just not even playing regular defense. We're just going to make everyone else do stuff. My guys going to be hugged up on you. It's just the chess match here is awesome and I just can't wait to see the the counters because it also like we're talking about how the spurs now that you know this is coming. How do you counter the this that was there in game two like it's not like Mark Dagnol is going to play the exact same way in game three as he did in game two just because that's stuff working game two. He knows that Mitch Johnson is sitting over there scheming up counters and he's scheming up counters to the counters ahead of time and like we said, I mean this series, this is what you I mean, minus the injuries, which again, if Harper and Fox, let's just, I, we'll learn today. If Harper and Fox are out or limited for the entire series and Mitch Johnson, I think I saw a quote where he said, if this were the regular season, Fox would not be playing. He's trying to play is warming up before games. That's a little ominous, right? Because that suggests how good is he going to be if the one he plays like I don't think they can win three more games with those guys out or both out or both limited for the series. We'll see, we'll see what the JW thing is, but this is this is what you want. You want the great teams going up against each other and forcing them to dig deeper into their bags, finding stuff that they did not have to use against anybody else. And we've already seen it through two games. We've already seen so many schematic changes and so much desperation and so much urgency. We just want five more and we want everyone to be healthy. That is that too much to ask after all these injuries and then 65 game limit stuff and whatever. Like just give me five more of these and let everyone play. Yeah, the injuries with the biggest bummer from last night because this series has just been some of the most fun I've had as a basketball fan in years. And I would just hate to see it end like this. And it's a speaking of adjustments by the deer and fox coming back would just be a weird geometry shift to the series because he's a very different type of player than Castle and Harper. He's a speed attack guy who has more of a pull up jump shot to rely on. Like Steph Castle has been going to that kind of scissor dribble step back three. And he's had a couple midrangers that have looked really nice that are kind of a glimpse into the future. And you can tell how good he's going to be, but Fox brings an entirely different element to it. We've seen so much box when we pick and roll in the previous two rounds, like that's going to be an element that returns Zach, I feel like we have to shout out. Shake it. Just Alexander. A little bit more than we have. Okay. I thought he I thought he was incredible last night. After this shot diet that he's dealing with with this matchup, you could not construct a defense more well equipped to guard Shay in terms of like we always have three dudes who are six five to six seven that can slide their feet that have long arms on the perimeter that can switch on him. We are so athletic and rotation that we can be up in the gaps and make life difficult for him so that every time he makes a drive, he's trying to do a low gatherer high gather to split the gap, we're fast in rotation and we have the alien at the rim. And his shot diet is just absurd. And for him to go, what was it, 12 for 24 last night, 30 points, night assist with one turnover. I thought he had his secondary rim protection with his length at the basket is so valuable with this roster because of how small they have to play for chunks of the series and just how physically limited they are in some of their position groups in terms of height. I just think like again, I think the dead give away from the first two games of the series is no one's touching Wembee ceiling. Like what he did in that third quarter was so outrageous. What he did in game one, Wembee ceiling is the highest in the league by a mile. And you know, who we think is better at the end of the series that remains to be seen. But I just thought I just thought last night was a guy who's one of the best, not the best player in the league with his season completely on the line playing an incredible basketball game under incredibly difficult circumstances and he deserves a bowload of credit. Yeah, 38 really hard minutes and the one turnover is as important as any of the other stats in that stat line. That was an MVP level performance, obviously. And yeah, I mean, Wembee in game one was just outrageous in game two for portions of it was just outrageous. We shall see what happens going forward. I picked Thunder in seven. I don't feel better or worse anything about that pick. What was your pick in the series? I was spurs in six. I felt a little bit better after game one because the big thing was just the guards. The guards just look so physically superior is something that I think portends well for them. But I think the thing that's kind of tilt to be back towards OKC and feeling more like I did before the series, like just very slightly towards San Antonio is just that depth advantage for OKC. I really do think that that's something that will favor them over the course of the series. We shall see. Let's quickly. I don't want to spend more than just a few minutes on it. Game one was just, I was there and for the second straight eastern conference, game one, I was at MSG sitting way up on the, I think it's the Hyundai bridge now, not the Chase Bridge anymore. Just sitting there thinking, am I hallucinating, is this really happening, is this happening again? A gigantic comeback, except this time it's the inverse with the nix making the conversation. It's the inverse with the nix making the comeback and the nix getting the bounce on the rim that was not as great as the Halliburton bounce, but it was still quite a bounce. And now we get game two are the calves just totally demoralized and broken after one of the worst collapses I've ever seen in the NBA. And yes, like any collapse that happens over a short span of time, six to seven minutes, it's both things. It's the nix and Jalen Brunson playing outrageously well and it's the calves pooping all over themselves on national TV and Kenny Atkinson who said after the game in his press conference, oh no, we adjusted, we put two on the ball against Brunson hunting James Harden and it's like, was I watching the same game as you were coaching because I think yes, you did adjust and you just, you did put two on the ball way too late and I understand the nix playing five shooters, which is something I've talked about before the series, makes putting two on the ball a little riskier and opens up a little bit more like open threes and all that, but you did it way too late and then your team did it poorly, like you did you executed the rotations behind it poorly, just an absolutely embarrassing collapse for the calves. The cool thing about being there and Legler talked about this on the broadcast, I rewatched it a little bit yesterday is the crowd was ready for it. Like the crowd, when it got to 15, the crowd was ready for a comeback to happen. It's because they're great fans, it's because this team has been an elite fourth quarter team and Brunson has been an elite fourth quarter player for a long time now and I also think it's because, like they were on the other end of it last year, they know what can happen in a short span of time and it was as soon as it got to 15, I was riveted the whole time because I'm like this could happen again, give me like two things that you are watching for tonight in game two. So obviously, the big one on the defensive end of the four is just how they choose to protect Hardin and they tried a variety of different things. I like the two, some of them are two on the ball sequences two or more like a drop coverage where they had Hardin just kind of like hanging back, you know five, 10 feet behind the ball and then OGN and OB would pop and they tried like rotating two OG but then they just changed their spacing so that that closeout was too far from the left corner and they were able to get that get the defense and rotation that way. I think regardless of what they choose whether it's switching and letting Hardin defend or it's the drop that they they ran or it's double teaming, they just have to execute it better because like they had stops in every one of those looks in a variety of different ways. It was just when they executed it well, when they rotated well, when Hardin sat in a defensive stance instead of just swatting at the basketball and he like sat in a defensive stance and slid his feet, he was able to play Brunson into a tougher shot diet, like so much if it is just executed well, right? Like I think they need to come up with something that they're going to do and be a little bit more keyed in on the rotations. I thought there were several examples where the basic, the basic, the biggest example that I saw was the one where Mobley rotated to the left wing and Allen rotated to the left corner, but it looked like Mobley didn't trust that Allen was going to be there. So when Mobley closed out, he kind of stayed in the passing lane instead of getting in front of the ball and it allowed, I think it was OG to drive off of the wing and get into the lane. So there's a certain amount of like they need to be on a string, know what they're doing and be prepared for that. On the other end of the floor, I just thought it was about attacking Kat instead of attacking Brunson. And some of this is on Sam Merrill because he had a couple of bad plays out of hedges where he caught the ball in the wing and started to drive, but like didn't really commit to the drive and it kind of ended up in a tough shot. And another one where he caught and held, which is like the number one thing you can't do against a four on three situation and it caused the advantage to go away. When they attack Kat in the ball screens, it puts the onus on Mobley as a jump shooter in the pick and pop. And specifically against they loaded up defense because there's been no other movement. Whereas if Mobley catches on the perimeter after you attack Brunson and the defense is in rotation a little bit, then Mobley can maybe drive a closeout and there's bigger gaps for him to attack and maybe a little bit more rhythm in the jump shot when he does get it. And so I think in general, like just being more diligent about attacking Brunson instead of attacking Kat because Kat is actually, he's actually capable of making some plays in the drop. Like he blocked Donovan Mitchell on a floater on one of those drop coverage sequences. And so I think I think they attacked the wrong guy on one end. Even when they got Brunson, there was some ugly possessions like Harden settled for a pretty bad step back three on one of them. And there was so much conversation about Donovan Mitchell not wanting to basketball. Can we give Blanger Sham at some credit? I thought he did an incredible job on Donovan Mitchell one on one. Just sliding his feet and keeping him in front and making it so that frankly, James was a better option for some of those sequences down the stretch. Yeah, Shamit was great. He changed the whole game. You mentioned going at Brunson, and they had a lot of success running hard and shooter pick and rolls to hunt Brunson. If I'm the nicks, I'm thinking of do I do I give that switch a little bit more not every time because Brunson will get in foul trouble. But like I don't, James Harden can't get by people anymore. And so yeah, he might be able to shoot over Harden, but I'm over Brunson, but like I'm okay with that. And if you're setting the screens at half court, like the calves were a lot of times like I'm just why am I like pressing out there? Just I'm just going to sit back and I'm going to make you run it two or three more times. A couple of like I'm glad you brought up Donovan Mitchell in the ball. A couple of like conventional, a couple of like mass takes that I think were either not right or borderline not right. Number one, I saw a lot of like well, Harden's defense on Brunson was was pretty good. Brunson just made a lot of tough shots. I would say, I would say largely no to that. I think there were a couple of times when that was true. And you mentioned like when Harden actually tries and slides his feet, he's all right. I think there were several times where Brunson just straight up roasted him off the dribble and got the calves in rotation. And then I think shots that look hard to the naked eye are not hard shots for Jalen Brunson if he's comfortable against the guy guarding him. If he knows like one jab step is going to open up just the amount of space I need for this three or this two. And there was a mid-ranger and a three that were like this. For him, they're just not hard shots. Yeah, they're jumpers. They're not going to go in every time. I thought he looked very comfortable against James Harden and the James Harden's defense was not good. Donovan Mitchell ran the ninth most picking roles. He has run in a game regular season or playoffs this season in game one. And I watched the fourth quarter and over time two more times carefully. He had the ball a lot in both of those both of those periods of time. He what like there was this idea that he was just standing over as a bystander and Harden was doing everything. And it just wasn't true. He missed a shot at the rim. He missed two shots at the rim. One Jared Allen put back. He ran a lot of Mitchell Sam Merrill picking roles, which you mentioned. The Nick's defense on those plays was the reason I think that Sam Merrill hesitated when he caught the ball and the calves bad defense on the exact equivalent play on the under and the floor. It's why Landry Shamack got a wide open three to tie the game. Their rotation just weren't as good and weren't as early and weren't as on point as the Nick's but Donovan Mitchell had the ball. Quite a bit down the stretch and just did not do very much with it and kick it back to Evan Mobley for threes that one of one of what you made, but the Nick's are going to be happy with. Just one thing that I'll be watching is two things I'll be watching. Number one, you mentioned Cat in the pick and roll. I was a little surprised how how aggressively the Nick's put two on the ball and blitz I couldn't believe it in game one and when the calves go small and put more shooting on the floor, I think that's a little dangerous, but the Nick's rotations out of it were really, really good. So I'm interested to see how that battle emerges and real quickly on the other end. I was not that surprised, but interested in that the calves seemed and we saw glimpses this in the regular season seemed more willing than you might expect to switch Jared Allen on the jail in Brunson, even with Mitchell Robinson on the floor and that switch leaving Mitchell Robinson a giant advantage on the offensive glass and Jared Allen is actually done pretty well against Brunson on switches and it's been limited. I wonder if we'll see it a little bit more where and or if the Nick's will be ready for it. So those are those are two of the things I'll be watching. I picked Nick's and six. I feel good about Nick's and six and these are always games where you just wonder how is the team that had that collapse going to respond. Is it going to break them or are they going to come out fired up? I expect a good effort from the calves tonight. But boy, was that a wild, I mean, just wild, just like and when it went to overtime, it's like, well, obviously, you know, the Nick's are going to win. Like there was no there was no doubt about that, but and you'll be going live after after tonight. Yeah, going live after the game tonight. The only the only thing I would add is I thought that I did think the calves switching as much as they did was connected a little bit to the Josh Hart problem and how much they like if we have Evan mobility roaming behind, we're effectively guarding the switch two on one because we can allow that on ball defender to kind of overplay the jumper a little bit. So I'll be really curious to see how quick Mike Brown, you know, kind of pulls the plug on heart and goes to sham it. And I I wonder if it ends up being the kind of thing. where heart ends up playing more with the bench groups and Shamit ends up playing more with their core lineups to try to confront that issue because I think it's just so much harder to guard Brunson on the switch when you have another person roaming behind and just kind of a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, I think a big part of it too was the next legitimately looked rusty in the first half like they, they looked like they were at a rhythm. They did get a lot of good looks. There were some, they had like four or five of some of the worst brick threes I've seen all postseason in that first half too. So like a certain amount of what success Cleveland had early, I felt was associated with rhythm too, but tonight should be fun. I'll be really impressed to see Cleveland's like resolve because that, that was about as brutal a loss as I can remember a team having in the last few years. Oh, it was patrocious. Um, on a heart, I wonder if this is going to be a heart and a scene situation where the dialogue is, well, has he been played off the floor? Are we going to see less of him? And actually the opposite happens in, in, in the game, because this happens now. And then with Josh Hart, people like, well, they've just got to put more shooting on the floor. Josh Hart can't play. Josh Hart is clogging up the paint. And then the next game, Josh Hart reminds you why Mike Brown continues to start him. And he does like 12 points and 13 rebounds. Seven assists, three steals and does a bunch of Josh Hart stuff. He tends to respond like that. And I think one of the simple things the nicks could do is he just spent too much time chilling out in the dunker spot on some of their, on a lot of their offensive decisions. He's just not useful there. But we'll see game 2s tonight. Jason Tiffle have you right after the game. You'll go live on hoops tonight. YouTube channel, the volume must listen, must watch, must whatever you do to digest your content. Jason, it's a pleasure to have you on. And we got to do it again soon. This was a blast. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to next time. What a treat. This is fresh off year one of Amazon Prime videos and being NBA content. I was a small part of it. Kevin Harlan was a large part of it. And I just thought now that the NBA on prime is over. Next year prime gets to conference finals, I think. But fun time to reflect with one of the voices of the NBA and the voices of sports about that change in just life in general. Kevin Harlan, what a delight. How are you? I'm doing great. It's intimidating to be on with you, Zach, because I've watched your things over the years. And you know how I feel about you and what you've meant to probe basketball and your coverage of it. It's interesting. The world we're in now because we've had so many young, innovative, thoughtful people come up and cover this sport. The time my first year was 1982 to where we are now is just incredible. And people like you, Wendy, like Tim, there's so many of them that have been at the forefront of really helping the game evolve. People understand it and explanations and back of it, which I think is even more important, say things. You are one person that explains what goes on. So there are a couple of people that I must listen to, need to listen to. And you're one of those people I need to listen to. You keep me up to date and I appreciate that. So I like to hear. I appreciate it. We're just going to move right on. I don't like accepting compliments. So I'm going to move right on. Amazon, you know, I went back and I listened to a lot of your old, like classic calls that everybody loves. And I wanted to, and also shots that like I kind of forgotten you were on this call and that call. And you hear the partners that you've had over the years. And it must feel like not a revolving door. But you just, you just got to adapt fast. And like some guys you've probably worked with in two different locations. But this year it was a lot of Dwayne Wade and Candace Parker. And on and on, like, is it hard to switch up constantly like that? And who, who did you work? Who was the who were the first timers with you this year? Like I got to get chemistry with these guys right off the bat. John Wall was a first timer. We did a three man booth, three person booth with him. He had a couple others along the way, but it kind of fluctuated. We were the first of all, I'm more part, part time at Amazon than I was at TNT at TNT. I've been there 30 years and had the same partner Reggie Miller for a long stretch began with, um, you be brown and dick versus ace. Oh my God. Back back in the day. And then that evolved into Steve Kerr and Doc Rivers and, um, and Doug Collins, who to me has been, and I've loved all of them. I've loved them all so much. I just had this wonderful stretch with Reg and I just, I enjoy him on so many levels. But Doug Collins really, and Hueby really taught me the game, what to look for, how to make statistics, um, work within a broadcast that it made sense to the viewer and why it made sense to them was more interesting to me than what it meant to the viewer. And after they would explain it and continuing to hammer at home, it became a part of the way that I look at the game now. And I've been formed by their thoughts and their methods. So it's, it's, it's, it's been a great, uh, ride. And I hope it continues. I just finished my 39th year in the NBA, but I've worked with some incredible people. Um, and that included this year. So I've, I've been very, very fortunate in that regard. I've, I've loved them all. Yeah, the Reggie, the Reggie partnership was a long one. And, you know, he, he's got these, these insane games, now Thunder Spurs and I almost hear your voice with his because I was going back and listening to some of the calls and so many of them are, are Reggie calls. Um, uh, I don't even know where to start. I have so many fun questions for you. But, uh, did you really make up the nickname big ticket? How about that? We'll start there. I did. Um, again, is all these things kind of happen. It would just organically within a game. Um, uh, producer one time told me he said the best content from a broadcaster will always come from something that is not written down preplanned on your boards, but something that comes out as the game is going on in your field and your interpretation of it. And I've always kind of lived by those words. That was a fox producer who told me that back in the early 90s. And, uh, I've always kind of adhered the way I approach a game to, um, losing myself and being so focused and so immersed in, in the substitutions, in the schemes, in the flow and momentum that it has, it has served me, uh, well, and it served more importantly as a compass as I go along these games. So the big ticket, I think he had just signed the contract and, uh, the gigantic hundred and twenty six million dollar deal. Um, but you could just sense that early on is Macayle and Flip Saunders would convey to me how important this kid was to the timber walls when they made the, the stretch at the time they felt drafting him, um, as they did as a, as a teenager and, and kind of began that whole process. Uh, we knew he had will be back in the what 70s, 80s, and there was this long stretch where no one was drafted out of high school and then came Garnett and then came Kobe and the succession of great players. So everything was kind of hinged on what they did, how they developed and how they guided, uh, KG. And just for whatever reason along the way, I just, you just like, like, this is, this is the big ticket, like this is the guy the whole organization is hanging their hat on and that, that's where that came from. And now people just call him ticket, like his friends call him ticket. You mean, it's like his name now. Yeah. I know it's, it's, it's, you know, plan that stuff. If it happens great, if it doesn't, you just, it's a, it's a line in a game and you move out of the next play. So that's just, you talking about organic, organic stuff that just comes out, your brain just fires and things come out. Let's talk about some of your most famous lines. Uh, the most famous one is LeBron James with no regard for human life on a dunk against the Celtics. Had you ever said that before, where did that come from? I mean, it's just such a perfect line. Uh, and it just came out. Well, you're nice to say that came from a James Bond movie. And then it extended to our sons, Nerf football, a basketball games with me in his room. When he was like four and five years old and he would dunk on me, you know, he'd dry, he'd be like a running back in football, but the Nerf ball would be up here. And he would just drive right into me and put the ball up. And, and I said, have you no regard for human life, you know, and just joking around in his room. But it came from a James Bond movie, Dr. No, when Bond is sitting at the table of villain and is all good villains do, they tell you how they're going to rule the world and the process going to take to doing it. And it was in the underwater layer of Dr. No, and he's explained to Sean Connery, James Bond, what he's going to do and Bond responds by saying Connery responds by saying clearly you have no regard for human life is you're going to kill all these people. So that it came from there at extended month to my little guys bedroom and Nerf basketball games and then, and then went on into the game. And, and I may have said at once with Kobe on a dunk, maybe with KG, but the, but the LeBron one came over a reigning defensive player of the year in Garnet around a pretty defensive minded Boston team, a defending champ in a playoff game that then swayed the outcome of that series at a big moment in that game in Cleveland. And Doug Collins was with me and when LeBron went up, Doug, and, and I always kind of played off of his, uh, fizz. a political reaction to a play like if he jumped up or got excited or or I could hear it in his voice, then that triggered me to to get even more jazzed about what has happened and took his arm and rusted against my chest and pushed both of us back like he could not believe what he just saw and that that line just kind of came out literally as I was tilting backwards and falling into the lap of people and back of us and Cleveland. So it's funny where these things come up, but it was used there. It's stuck. I've not used it since actually that was the last time I ever I think I ever use that line. I may have used it a couple times before that, but I retired it, you know, seven, I guess it was our own nine with with the dunk by LeBron. Honestly, if you had been on Thunder Spurs last night and you had broken it out 19 years later for Steph Castle's dunk. I think that was worthy of a no regard for human life. I was watching it with the sound down because I was with our family. We're doing something else and saw it and I said, oh my god, it was kind of like the reaction to Wimby with the logo three the other night and game one like you just you cannot believe some of the things you see in this game in these kids are just continuing to evolve and do these these acrobatic incredibly skillful things that just I would like to think in all the broadcast or my brothers in the business that they would have that same kind of feel for the moment and they have they have another one that I love and this is just there's a YouTube clip that's just it's I think the title of the clip is Kevin Harlan classic calls as they become more and more insane or something like that. And one of them is I'd forgotten about this one Steph Curry hits just some crazy corner three and you go geometrically that should not have happened and I'm thinking it's so it's somehow you use the word geometrically which is geometrically four or five syllables, whatever it is it's a long word. But it's also you do it succinctly and it's just like I don't know if anyone has ever used the word geometric in a in an ecstatic play by play golf before or since but it's the exact right word you get in and out of it fast and it's and it's perfect is that just another like it just popped into your head. Yeah that it yes it is that was in a playoff game I think in Houston where he hit that shot yeah bounce and defender right there in his grill and he was and he hit the shot which we we've all seen these Curry shots right we've all seen LeBron dunks we've all seen Jordan and Kobe and Dr. J and magic and like we've seen all these people over the years do these things I don't know why that word at that moment came out frankly. It was not I appreciate you liking it I really do but no I don't know but in fact a lot of things I'll say during a game I quickly forget because you're on to the next play and and you're again you're so focused on what's happened you don't even realize this stuff and then and then it comes out afterwards we're driving back to the hotel with our crew and and and they're younger than me and they're on social media and they're looking at the people like this or those. All of a sudden just kind of hit the play thing and play the clip and go. I guess I don't know I don't know what do you have like a landmark example of that like I didn't even realize I said that and it became like a thing with Reggie a lot that happened because he would he would he would look at it going back to the hotel we get stuck in traffic like everybody does. Well in NFL games there have been a couple of drunks that have gone on the field and I've done the play by play of that and and and and that's kind of happened I truly did not even give it a second thought when it happened and moved on with the game and then this stuff comes up my wife when I come off the road and I get home. The first thing she says is that it's great to see you hey welcome home it's that did you say anything that you're going to lose your job I said I don't know sometimes I say stuff I don't even know I'm saying. But I am guided by that principle of not writing things down free plan stuff. Really I know what what the game means a game seven championship game is Super Bowl I mean I realize that and in my mind I'm prepared to try to you know put into some context of what the wind means what it signifies I mean I've got that. Not but not the every play or spectacular play type of saying or quick twist of a word or something like I don't I don't I don't go down that road for people who don't know the football clip. I this became so famous that I knew it even is a not a football fan. I think Jeff Fisher is coaching because the cameras on Jeff Fisher the whole time I don't know what it's a Titans I don't know which team is coaching Rams one of them and a drunk runs on the field and they don't show these people anymore because they don't want to give them publicity but he's on the field for quite some time and you just there's no there's no. Dead time where you figure out what to do and then you do it you just immediately go into calling it like it's the game he's on the 50 he's on the 40 he's bare chested he has no sure that he's at the 30 and it's just so. Deadpan funny and it just keeps going and here comes security all they know they've got him now and it's it just. And and I remember I read somewhere where you thought I did I said this and like I didn't think are they going to hate it or they're not going to hate it I'm not going to get in trouble for it and another thing like that was this cracked me up there was a I don't know if you remember this but it's it's similar in that I wonder if you thought afterwards like oh no did I annoy a sponsor or something there's a car max ad that comes on during a game and they mix the copy up of a car max ad and it's an ad for somebody's chicken tenders and you start reading the ad. And it's for car max and then it goes into chicken tenders and you just there's this prolonged period like wait a minute here am I getting chicken tenders with the car are they in the car is the car going to smell of chicken tenders and it just you just go with it and sometimes it's got to go with you I but I I wondered watching that if you thought oh car max is going to be pissed at me or the tenders company whichever one it isn't going to be pissed me but it's what else you supposed to do they screw up the copy yeah they did and no I think about that afterwards. A lot I don't necessarily think about it during when I'm reading it you know it's funny I was a Turner for 30 years 30 years at TNT and had many reads promos commercials to do like that and if one was kind of weirdly written fun it you know poke and fun at themselves or whatever the copy was we'd react to it you know just as having fun is probably anybody sitting at the couch on their couch at home might have and yeah that was that was one with a copy got mixed up so I think about no one had ever said anything to me it in that weird like in 30 years and I probably did rear four of those a season where the copy was weird or it didn't mix or they had the wrong graphic up and we're reading about a zoo and they showed you know a movie well whatever like whatever it would have been and and I always kind of thought you know if they had a problem with it they probably would have said something I don't think Marv did it I don't think Vern Lundquist did it or Stockton did it so it wasn't like I was trying to fall into place I guess I was young and dumb and and and just began doing it and never really gave it a second thought if the copy was weird or the thing was didn't make any sense or I would I read it wrong I'd you know you have fun with it and that's that's kind of what happened what you're great and and I've kind of done the same thing at Amazon and they and they've never said it maybe they are saying stuff and they just haven't gotten it to me I don't think so and one of these today I was going back and reading a bunch of interviews you had done and you talked about how particularly early in your career when you were doing timbre wolves games is this the play by play voice of the timbre wolves you got some black or criticism I guess for well is he too flamboyant is he too is he yelling and screaming too much is it too loud all the time in your response to that was number one and I and I thought about Eric Collins with the Hornets when you said this part of it which is hey we were a young nothing team expansion team just trying to kind of get on the map so it seemed like you were saying like I'm going to air on the side of just being kind of big and boisterous because we have to we have to get publicity we have to get on the map but also like you just and this reminded me I've had Eric Collins on the podcast and we've talked about this and you just have to be you you can't not be you and if that's and if that's who you are and how you call the games authenticity is going to win out over everything else in the end and you just have sort of have to ignore whatever small minority of people think that and just and just be you like I and it's funny like I never thought of you as over emotional or over exuberant I always thought of you is like properly exuberant your court side watching crazy NBA playoff games that's sort of what I want out of an announcer and Eric Collins yes to dial it down a little bit when he goes from the Hornets broadcast to prime broadcasts and that's appropriate but I want him to be him too and I just it was just I wonder if you ever even cared about people saying that about your broadcasts well you know as a local broadcaster there's a completely different feel and that becomes the difference is is when you're is when you're one of our grandkids just walked in that's what they do yeah I know it yeah I don't care what you're doing so as a local broadcaster is it's a different feel and at the time it was an expansion team and you're trying to sell the sport. And so I would get as excited for Jordan and for all the different great players that the Timberwolves and those very lean years would face as I did for the wolves. And then you start getting J.R. Ryder and you start getting some players that had a little bit of traction KG clearly and others, Google Yada. You know, there are some fun players along the way. And there were still kind of losing, but you could sense that okay, event, Christian late, there was on the team for a while. So you had all these, all these, you know, players, but it was always the opposing team that was really, really doing, you know, barkly with Philadelphia then with Houston and Phoenix. And so we had fun with that and just tried to sell the greatness of the game. You know, it's a constant thing that swirls in my mind about how much, you know, do you push the meter? And I've always thought of that. And I guess I just feel like I think the days in our business of trying to be the Edward R. Murrow of a game are that probably doesn't resonate anymore. People need to find, you know, some electricity, I think, and and warns it not, not just manufactured, but like when it really matters. And I guess I'm such a fan. I love the game. I love college intro and certainly love pro football. But the NBA is full of such circus like unbelievable. Did you just see what happened type of moments that I don't know how if you're a fan of the game, you can't have some just real emotion like poor out of you. And again, I've been kind of guided by that principle. I mean, if I see a pass to like maybe the average fan that doesn't realize how hard it was with with what was surrounding the ball handler. And where we got that ball at the split second it had to be there for that play to develop and happen. Like I just find that like art. I just I just I just love I love coaches when they make a move that you can see. And our analysts will explain. I love a great defensive play. I love these things that happen in the game. And I think sometimes you've got to make them aware. You know, people say, how could you get so excited in the first quarter for a game that goes four quarters and may have another two hours left. And my answer is an incredible play needs to be appreciated at any time. Clearly it has more effect late in the game because it has more of an impact on the outcome of the game. But a great dunk or a great I'm not talking just a two handed flush inside by Wembe or whoever. But I'm talking about a well time orchestrated guy flying. Here's the pass delivered perfectly executed like these things like just always continue to to take my breath away. And I'm not going to apologize to anyone for getting too excited in the first or second quarter of a game that that of a play that has that kind of momentous feel. I guess I'm going by my heart and what my years watching the game have taught me and I'm kind of relying on that. Well, and also at the end of games you have to be cognizant of yeah, this is fun. But these things now have massive stakes to them and you have to encapsulate the stakes appropriately. And sometimes being funny is not the or being boisterous is not the appropriate way to do that to to wit. One of my favorite calls of your entire career in boy if you call some iconic crazy shots is the koai shot in 2019 Raptors Sixers and I rewatched it. And he goes up to shoot and you say is this the dagger and then silence silence as the balls in the air silence as the ball is at the rim one time two time three time four time shot goes in and you and Reggie together just kind of scream. Oh, and then more silence more silence three four seconds of silence let the atmosphere set in and then something like game series Toronto. But that silence as the ball is hanging up in the air not just on the rim but the whole time. Again, you can't calculate this you can't plan for it. But I wonder if you remember in that moment feeling the need to say something but want to say something how long is this going to persist at the rim. But it's the silence is perfect and the reaction. It's not a word. It's just the noise is exactly what I want to hear as exactly what I'm doing watching the game. Well, you are too kind and I coming from you. I appreciate that. I was actually working with Greg Anthony. That's right. It was Greg Anthony. That's right. Greg was there and just before that, you know, Butler had gone in for Philadelphia and they had a miraculous play and got it to where it was when the inbound came in from the Raptors. And it is probably I do think in those moments late in the game that's where the silence really pays off and we had a talented director that night. And the cutting of the shots I think they took a shot outside of the building where there was those massive, you know, playoff fan areas and they were going ballistic. Sometimes in the arena, you can't get the feel because everyone is in a stationary, you know, this is my seat. This is like outside where it's like a big dance party. The animated fan and the celebration of that play really comes out. So the person that cut that got the inside, got the guy in the floor in the corner, got the outside reaction. And then the noise was just such. It was like a symphony. And if a picture says a thousand words, sometimes, you know, with that kind of outcome that clinched the series, led them on. You don't have to say anything. And that was kind of my feeling at that moment. There are moments when that works. There are other moments when it doesn't. You don't do it in the first quarter. Probably don't do it in the first half. But if there's a game changing sway that really signifies, oh my, this is momentous. It does fit. A lot of broadcasters do it. I did it there. It worked out, game seven. I think it was the only, if I'm not mistaken, and Zach, you'd know this more than me. I don't know. It may have been the only game winning buzzer beating game seven series deciding shot and playoff history. I'd have to go back and look. It seems to me like I read that at the time that that had never happened in a game seven. And maybe it's, but it was a game seven last second shot buzzer beating game like that's it had all those components. So what when you've got something like that, you don't have to be a rocket science to figure out what that shot meant, how precarious it was when it was taken. And then the weird ending result with the bounces and finally dropping through in the reaction because the crowd in that building, I think at that time it's called the air candidate center. They still be it went silent like they were just with every bounce. You could you could feel it like inside as you watched it and the silence was like deafening. And then bang, it happened. And it was like, oh my gosh, what a play against M.B. It against Butler. Simmons was on that teams for Philly. So it was fun. You're nice to mention it because that was a great. I felt privileged to be there for that moment in that shot. If that's not the most iconic bounce on the rim in the modern television era, it's another one that you called, which is Tirey's Hallibur in last year in game one against the Nix. A game I was at as well and Reggie, of course, is next to the ultimate Pacer, the ultimate Nix villain is next to you for that shot. And that hung up in the area even longer. And you could tell from my angle way up in the rafters from TV, that it's got a chance when it's falling, that it might go in. And so you have a similar just silence. You're not going to narrate it. It's going to go in or it's not going to go in. And similarly, it's just a scream with you and Reggie's laughing. Reggie just starts cackling, which again, it's perfect. But you also had the moment and you realized it pretty fast of, wait a second, is the game over? Is the game not over? Is it a two or is it a three? And so I don't know if you were like trying to figure it out because you don't you don't announce that the game is over. You never you never react as if the game is over. You react with exuberance. But but that's a moment of confusion that reminds me a little bit of and Mike Green has already gone on Levitard and talked about this. His fame now already famous unbang from game one similar game Cavs nicks Sam Marles game one in three goes in and out and you go bet bet no. And I was texting with Mike yesterday that I'll just I'll just share that and he said something similar on Levitard. He was like, well, I make mistakes. We all make mistakes. And I told him even before he went on Levitard, I don't think that's a mistake. I think that's the exact authentic in the moment reaction that I want as a fan because it's in and then it's out and you go, bang no. And it's sold the transition from that the proto bang to no is so smooth. It's almost like it's a catchphrase that Mike Green would use. And it's it's perfect. But you had a similar moment on that shot of like, is the game over? And like, what an I don't even know what you're thinking it. Reggie's laughing. The crowd's going crazy. Like, that's another one that's I don't know what you're thinking in that moment or how you handle it. Well, I was not and I'm trying to go back and remember. But you know, was he on the line? Was he outside? Was he was he inside the the arc or whatever? Was going to. going through my mind. And right, yeah, you don't want to, I mean, it was an incredible shot. And the fact that it went in and had the bounce high very high, like one of the highest bounces I can recall. And then boy, I went right right through the cylinder was one of those, you remember, and that was also a game, you know, game one in the garden, like it was like holy cow, like this head, this head, it was monumental with the way they were hitting shots in that game anyway. So yeah, there are those moments, but I think it's like what a fan would do. And knowing Mike the way I do, and we're good friends, he is such a fan. I mean, I just know how much he loves the game. Like I don't know that I've ever run into anyone actually quite frankly in the NBA that loves every aspect of this game. And he's so understanding and so empathetic and he just has all these qualities that is a viewer of the game that I want to hear in my broadcaster. And he always, he always conveys that. And just one of the thousands of reasons why he's probably the best we've ever had along with Marv in the NBA. And so I know that feeling that we had another one like that too, Zach and game six, a couple years ago, Miami, Boston, and white goes in at the buzzer and puts up the layup and the officials who I immediately look forward to because it's hard to call that and look at the clock and say is my timing off, is the light off, is the buzzer, but I'm looking at the officials and I saw their reaction and they didn't know. And so he goes in and it was just, it was a eyelash, how close it was clearly, but he got it to go. And but there was a stop in the and I looked at the benches and I get a reaction sometime with these players and their reaction and and both benches didn't know what had happened. So there are those moments when you're broadcasting where there's always this famous thing and end out lay out. And so there's a little bit of a doubt there like you got to call the play and then you've got to say, but did the shot go in at the buzzer and they're going to take a look, but they had not ruled it yet. So there's always that pause. So I get what Mike's going through. We've all been through it and and you just hope your instincts are clear and concise for the viewer that that you know, you're you're you're trying to put it together in real time. It's a live broadcast. There's no chance there to sit back as you're writing and and and and and and retype it or whatever and make it look good. What happened? You're calling it as a broadcast or as it's unfolding. It can be very challenging. And Mike and I have talked about that. We've all all of us have gone through moments where there was a little bit of uncertainty. What what is a game or a moment or a shot or a play that you wish you had called that that was someone else's game and you watched it or you've thought about it like, man, I wish I was on that game. That would have been so fun. Yeah, there are. That's a good question. I guess I kind of feel like I've I've had at one time or another, you know, I called Michael Jordan from his fourth game rookie year. And then I didn't call the NBA for about four years because the Kings left to go to Sacramento. And that's when I got in the NFL. But I called Jordan from his fourth game as a pro with the bulls. They played in Kansas City against the Kings. Larry Brown had his whole J Hawk team, by the way, in the stands because of the North Carolina connection. They all came down after the game after I interviewed Jordan. And Mark Turgeon of all people goes, what was it like being by George? Like is he thought is he cool? Then you thought and called Jordan through his days with the Wizards called every season of LeBron and Kobe. So I've been so blessed to see great shots, heroic plays. Steph Curry now called him from his rookie year through these years in his career, called his four thousandth re point shot made. I've been there, you know, I mean, I've not done NBA championships. But I would say this kind of extending your thought, you know, Mike and myself and I and we're all kind of the same age people, you know, and in and around 60, a little bit of less, a little bit more. So someone asked me one time, you know, how does it feel that you'll never call an NBA final? And my response was, I think it was Richard Ditch, I was talking to you. And I say, you know, my response to that would be because Mike has been this friend in the NBA for 30 plus years. And I'll speak for everybody of our age group. Like I kind of feel like we're there calling the finals because Mike is such a leading voice for our group of broadcasters. He's covered the succession of finals that will never be equal again. I don't think in the in the industry. So I feel like I'm right in back of them enjoying the moment with him as his voice is chronicling these great finals that we've had a chance to watch big shots Ray Allen or whoever, you know, the block by LeBron, just all these wonderful moments over the years. So I kind of feel like even though I've done conference finals clearly, but we'll never do an NBA final and always kind of feel like, you know, I feel like I've been with him on that journey and enjoy so much that he is the one representing our group of broadcasters in the league. So I kind of feel like I've been a part of it from a far and lived it through his eyes and voice and friendship. And I've always loved watching him be the flagship voice of this league. Well, I'm just saying like there have been like mini broadcast swaps before a little like kind of not stunts, but you know what I mean? We're like, I will invite this guy on to this broadcast and maybe in the future, there's a Kevin Harlan finals like, all right, let's bring them on, you know, it's time. Who knows? I do have as a, as a, well, I haven't written a while, but as a writer, I do have to give you credit for this. And I want to ask you about it. I mean, a lot of the best announcers, they go deep into the Soros, right? And sometimes it's, you feel like, are they overdoing it? Are they trying to hard? You have more, you don't have that many, but you have some pet phrases for a guy, like knifing his way into the lane. He machetes his way in. He thrundles his way in. I'm not sure, I'm probably missing a couple, but like machetes is such a vivid one because you picture in the movies, like Indiana Jones going through a jungle or something like that. How do you land on these, as there have been one you've used that were like, oh, that did work. That's too violent or that's too off color that we can't use that one. Like, and I'm probably forgetting some of machetes and thrundles are the ones that pops into my head first. Well, I love words. And again, you hope that during the game, that right word is there. And you're kind to mention that. And some of this is carry over from my NFL broadcasting, too, because there's so many, you know, running backs, you try to gouge their way over the left guard for a guy of fear, or they bore their way or whatever. The other night I was doing a pistons Orlando playoff game. And our view, court side was of a guy, I think it was Tobias Harris. I don't know if that is correct or not, but he came in, maybe in Cade, came in and went inside the paint, but with authority like he went in, like just unabashed. And I said, he used the word unflinchingly. And because from my viewpoint, that was the word that popped up because he did not blink. He just ramrod it his way right. Ramrod, that's another one. Ramrod is another one. That's another Harlan special. I don't know that I've ever written, written down the word ramrod. I don't know that I will ever say the word ramrod outside the context of this conversation. I'm not even sure I know what a ramrod is. I'm not sure. It just sounds like what a guy does is ram it inside like that. And that's kind of where they probably came from. But I said unflinchingly goes down the lane. And I was work with Jim Jackson. And I took off the headset and said, I have never that we end. And it was a commercial pretty quick act. And I said, I don't think I've ever in my life just talking and just regular talking have ever used the word unflinchingly before. So I again, I read a lot. And so maybe it comes from that. I will tell you this. And I'm not sure. I in my there are some people that in my mind, Zach, that I hear their voices when I was a kid. I used to try to emulate facenda and summer all and Jim Simpson and Scott and Don Cricky and all these and Dick Stockton, like all these great voices. And I've so got them in my head. And I don't sound like any of them. But one guy who I listened to a lot, I've not done NHL hockey was Emmerich. Oh my God. And Emmerich would use a lot of these words. And I've watched them since the early 2000s in various ways, maybe even before that. But I, my dad was a journalism major at Marquette. So he, he was a writer and he, he always valued word usage. And he would always tell me he said, you know, when you're doing radio, you said the word choice you use can paint a whole picture. One word can paint like like a whole picture of what happened on that play. So I always kind of took that to heart and maybe just I've got this catalog in my mind where these words will come up when they come up. But yeah, though, I don't know where they come from. I don't know how it comes out. And I'm probably best not knowing that because if I looked at it too, you know, intricately, I'd probably begin to overthink it and it wouldn't come out because in play-by-play, a lot of stuff has got to be, it's got to come out. You cannot think about, you know, how that all transpires. So, but I do appreciate something like you, a writer at heart has come out and I'm glad that, 'cause I've not had a lot of people that have said it. And because no one's ever said it, I've never really thought about it. But I do, going back watching my games, I'll think that word worked there, that word may, I don't know, I mean, there's some words that do and some that don't and you use them and you move on 'cause there's so many words that are used, of course, in a broadcast. - Well, now you've given me a goal for the next 48 hours, which is, I want to use the word unflinchingly. I want to say it out loud and somehow, like, I don't know if you read Wright Thompson's big story, he wrote about Steve Kerr's decision to come back as a word. - I've got it, Peg, I've not read it yet, but I've got it, Peg. - So, one of the anecdotes in there is that Steve Kerr, I guess in press conferences scattered throughout the year, basically recited a Taylor Swift song, lyric by lyric, he would sprinkle lyrics into one the answer, one answer and nobody realized it because obviously who's gonna realize it. So now this is, I wanna, I'm just trying to think how would I use unflinchingly? It's a good, my wife be like, hey, did you cook dinner tonight? I was like, I unflinchingly dice the audience here. - I didn't bat an eye, I went right into it, I grabbed the pan, I had the sport. You know, the thing, and again, it's gotta be one of those plays and the best plays, sometimes for that kind of description are ones that unfold, like I was saying, I would talk into a journalism class the other day. And I said, you know, it's interesting, you always hear ball players talk about when the pitch comes in, you're in such a zone and you're in such a sweet spot of your focus and concentration that you can literally see the rotation of the ball and the seams on the ball. And George Brett would say that all the time when he was at the height of his powers and you hear Brady talk about when he would drop back in quarterback, the great ones always say, things were in slow motion, manning would say, I could see the cross before the guy made the cut and I could see that the move and the stem of the route before it was even performed. And broadcasting, there is a lot of that. When your voice is, you're confident in it because you're not battling a cold or sniffles or allergies or whatever, or a horse. And your voice is strong, it does lead, I think, at least for me, a confidence in that's okay. That's one thing I don't have to worry about now. Now it's about pacing and periods and structure and cadence and things like that. And I'm that unflinching not to get too deep into the weeds here. But when that guy made the move in our angle, watching the, you could just sense that even though he was outside the free-throw lane and almost more of the circle and began to cut, swerve and then dive that he went in there, said, I'm getting that rim, regardless of what's in my way, who's in my way, how many are in my way? And that made it, that's, I guess, for that word, came in. He with Bravado went in there and did not flinch at whatever was gonna be in the way he went in there and made the play. And I guess that's a kind of thing. You think when you're going slow enough and you're in that zone and things are in your mind's eye with the vocal, you know, exertion, when it happens like that, those words seem to really erupt. Oh my God, say what? Well, that way it's describing it. I'm gonna unflinchingly get through the crowds at Madison Square Garden today to get to my seat and watch people Ramrod and Trundle and Machete and into the lane. Kevin Harlan, you're the best. This is a joy, we're gonna have to do this again when the NBA starts up next season. Your coverage on Amazon, it was awesome and it's great to have you on and we'll have to do it again. This has been a delight. Thank you for making some time. I admire you greatly, Zach. I'm privileged to be on. Thank you so much, a lot of fun and enjoy the game tonight at the Gart. All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show. I'm headed over to Madison Square Garden soon. Game two, Nick's Caves, what the hell will happen? Who the hell knows? Thank you to Jason Timp from Hoops tonight. Hoops tonight for coming on. Gotta watch his content, listen to his content. He's awesome. If you wanna know what happened in the game, Jason is one of your guys. And thanks to the legend Kevin Harlan for being fun and being a good sport with all my silly questions. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production and thanks to you all for listening to and/or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back for a special Saturday episode because why not? It's the playoffs we're gonna do in instant reaction to Nick's Caves game three because I haven't covered that series as closely as the West Finals do to just the schedule of my podcast versus the schedule of the series. So Saturday we'll do a mini pod reacting to that game. Listen in for that and thanks to everybody for listening and watching the Zach Lowe Show. See you soon. 21 or over and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas, Star Casino or 18 and over in president DC. You can tuck your oil in and gambling problem. Call one in 100 gambler or 1-800-my-reset. Call one-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-505-0 for 24/7's important Massachusetts or call 1-877-8 hope-NY or text hope-NY in New York for Louisiana call 1-877-770-7867.