Thriving Through Uncertainties: In Conversation with Lizzy Rudd

Welcome to the Rene Global in Conversation Podcast, where we talk about the future of FineWine. I'm Paul Indicare, Director of Rene Global, and in this series we bring your conversation with some of the most interesting and influential figures in and around the world of FineWine to talk about how the world is changing, how these changes impact the production, distribution and consumption of FineWine and how that creates risks to be managed and opportunity to be seized. When it comes to failing and adapting to change, the Kodak story is often quoted as the perfect case study. A conclusion? Kodak knew which way with the Earth was shifting, but its strategy committed the company to a future that looked very much like the past. At a time when uncertainty and turbulence have come to characterise most global markets, many Fine companies are struggling to avoid their own Kodak moment, but how should leaders prepare and adapt to succeed in an impossible to predict world? In today's episode, I sit down with Lizzie Rudd, the chair of Barry Broughton Rudd, Britain's 9th oldest family business, its oldest whine merchant and probably the biggest buyer of Bordeaux in the world. Started in 1698 at number 3 San James Tweet in London, the company still occupies the same address 327 years later. The history of BBR is full of success, but also paved with challenges, notably the once world by history as the company survived through countless wars and riots, many geopolitical turmoil and major recessions. From their investment in regenerative vertical to the huge budget, the allocate to digital transformation, Lizzie explains how the company is planning to thrive through yet another challenging time. Lizzie, thank you so much for being with us today. I'm really, really excited about the conversation that we are going to have because I've got so many questions in front of me and actually has the first one that I wanted to ask you. You are the chair of Barry Broughton Rudd, which is Britain's 9th oldest family business and Britain's oldest whine merchant. Of course everyone tuning from London will have heard about the company, but for our global audience, what are the best ways to describe BBR role in place in the fine whine ecosystem of today, particularly focusing on fine whine because that's what we are about. Okay, well thank you for having me. It's exciting to be here. And yes, Lizzie, I'm the chair of Barry Broughton Rudd. We are now 326 years old and going strong. We were started by a woman. I'm the third female leader in that time. My grandmother was also chair for 16 years back in the last century. Started by a widow born back in 1698. We actually started as a coffee merchant rather than a whine merchant, although we would have been selling a small amount of wine and luxury imported goods at that time. And then of course at that time, coffee was really considered a luxury, not like it is today. And so yeah, we've been going for a really long time. I think I'd like to think that having spent so many years building our reputation that we in the wine trade now represent consistency, dependability and trust within the fine whine ecosystem and the world. I am told, I believe that we are the biggest buyer of Bordeaux in the world. But the most important aspect of our business to us is the relationships that we build across the world, the friendships that we form between my colleagues, my family and the producers that we work with. That's whether they're wine producers or spirit producers. We even non-alcoholic drink producers which we've just started to move into. No more coffee, right? You don't do coffee anymore. We did do coffee. We went back to coffee for a while. That was Simon Berry's brain child. But I think we were a bit early when we did that. It was, we were a bit too soon. It was just before the really big coffee craze that started, whenever that was 20 or 20 years ago. We stopped doing that and decided to focus on wines and spirits. We did do a coffee liqueur under our own label. I just add to that, I think. I'd like to think that we can and do play a leading role in looking towards the customer of the future and to shape and that we can help shape the future of the fine wine industry within society going forwards. That our main vision is to be the best and most trusted fine wine and spirit merchant in the world and importantly for the world. That's really a nice and big ambition. We've mentioned the word fine wine, I think at least 10 times in the last two minutes. I've got two also started by asking you, what's fine wine for you? Is it something that you've defined at a company level at Berries or how does it work? It's one of those questions I had to go away and find out. Because we all have a view in our minds and I said, do we have a company definition of fine wine? I'm not sure that we do but we have a conversation around it, a small group of us. We did all agree the same thing that we see it as a high quality wine that has the potential to age and that's the essence to us of fine wine. But I think beyond that it's also, it needs to be a wine that has a story to tell and a sense of place that people who buy it and drink it can emotionally connect to. The notion of time is fascinating because it's also something that has been debated in the really global definition of fine wine, a wine of the highest quality but also has capacity to age. There was a huge debate amongst the trade about is should capacity to age, wine not be fine just if it's a Russian white for example or something like this. There are many reasons for which the time is of the essence. Actually, it's very linked to this. It makes even more sense for a company like yours that has been going through time and we'll talk a bit later as well but also have a lot of collectors in its consumer base. That's the kind that needs to. That's what we do, that's our core business. It's about it's appealing to people who are interested in collecting wine and we will store it for them until it's ready to drink and one of the issues that most of our customers buy far too much wine because collecting is very addictive and fun and quite hedonistic. Including myself, we have far too much wine so we also help them select to other wine lovers when the time comes. If either they've got too much or if they're lucky enough that it's increased in value so much that they decide that they'd rather sell it and then reinvest in hopefully in more wine to build their sell out. Of course, I was very aware of Barry Bloss and Rudd coming into London but it took me a while to grasp how important the company is and maybe can you give us a bit of context in terms of your size and your scale? You were talking about your storage capacity which is amazing. Can you give us a bit of insights on the scale of your operation today? Yes, of course. So yeah, we store over a million cases of wine on behalf of our customers in our state of. we built a new state of the art warehouse then in Hampshire. We have to keep it secret where it is. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. And the insurance must be a nightmare in showing all those wines. And that was a million cases when that might be a little bit out of date now. A million cases of 12. So yes, yes. And the capacity is much more than that. So we continue to. That's the business model to store wine and to help people drink it to give them advice, as cellar management. And then ideally, the vision is to give them great experiences as well at the time of maturity. Of course. If they want to come and drink it with us on our, in one of our corporate events, we do over 1,000 hospitality events that are premises in St James's. That often surprises people. We do that many every year. Because it's a bit of a problem. That's a bit of a problem. It's everything's hidden underground. They all wine-focused events. And that's what makes, that's part of the kind of core brand building marketing that we do. We see ourselves very much as a brand builder in the fine. How many, how many cues do you work with? How many different wine do you sell? Of course. I'm not sure the answer to that keeps changing. I know that some time ago it was about 1,500. It depends how you measure. Whether that's-- Yeah, and of course, if what you're measuring. Is it the vintage or the number of producers or the number of cuveils? Yeah. Any idea you can give us on the size of your-- because you are based in London, as I mentioned before, but you also have operation in Asia, right? Yes, we do. We have an office in Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Singapore. And one of the things that I was wondering because over the last few years, spirits really have been booming. Do spirits represent a big part of your turnover compared to wine? Like, is it of 80, 20 roughly kind of split or how does it get organized between the two? So that's a really interesting question. So in the last century until 2010, it was when we sold our Cutty Sark brand, a whiskey, that was then-- Yeah. --plus some other spirits that we had as a merchant. The vast, vast majority of our business was whiskey. It was exporting-- Scotch whiskey from Scotland to hundreds of countries, over about 120 countries around the world. And that was probably 90% of our business for that during that century. Then we sold Cutty Sark back in 2010 and have been very much focused on growing the wine business. We were focused on growing the wine business before that time. And so now it's more the other way around. We are becoming more focused on spirits as a spirit merchant. And we also have the number three gin brand. And we also distribute some other spirit brands in the UK for other people. But the vast majority of our business is wine. Yeah, and ending wine and selling. We actually sell to customers in over 100 different countries, but from the UK. 100 and sorry? We have customers in over 100 different countries. Well, OK, and you ship everything from the UK or from the US or in the UK for all of them. And then we ship when they're ready. And they're concentrated. The concentration is in the UK and where we have offices on the ground in Asia. You mentioned-- So you mentioned earlier that you are probably the biggest buyer of Bordeaux in the world. And then you had this ambition of being here also for the wine world and leading the wine world into the future. So that leads me to ask you about influence and the type of influence that someone has that a company like yours can have on the fine wine trade today, because you present such a big part of it. If you had to define not who you are, as I ask you previously, but the type of influence that you can have, how would you define that? I think I suppose our brand name and our heritage and long history helps with that. And somebody asked a really interesting question a few weeks ago when we were talking about sustainability and regenerating the land, because we are big advocates of sustainability and regenerative agriculture. We support and partner with the regenerative viticulture foundation. And I think they do excellent work. And you know that it's such a big solution to climate change is looking after the soil and therefore bringing carbon back down into the earth rather than industrial agriculture and viticulture, which does the opposite and releases it up into the atmosphere. And somebody asked, you know, what acreage or hectareage of land does Barry Brothers and Rudd have potentially have influence over in the world across all our producers? And I don't know the answer to that, but it would be quite interesting to see what is the acreage of land across the world with all the different producers that we deal with? And we work very collaboratively with them. We want to help, we want to share, we want to be a hub for information sharing. Well, we worked with you, didn't we, to put together our producer forum, which we've been as part of our 325th anniversary celebrations. And we had this forum called The Future is Now where we brought a lot of our wine producers together to share information about the future of the land and viticulture and share practices and some of the amazing innovations that some of the producers are doing that we work with. And we brought in some company called Glass Futures who talked a lot about glass and the-- I was going to ask you about this. Actually, in glass and we're just developing a manifesto like a kind of handbook that we can take to around all our producers and ask them questions and hopefully help them with how can we reduce the weight of glass if this is our aspiration. Will you collaborate with us? Will you work with us on these-- on this criteria? Because we've all got to get to net zero carbon by 2050, in line with the Paris Agreement, which is a really tall order. We are dependent on glass technology, changing and becoming net zero. And there's an amazing amount of work being done in the background. And obviously-- And you've been spiraling those conversations as I know quite well. That can be such a multifaceted question. But today, as the chair of your company, how do you measure success? That's a nice question. And we talk about this a lot. Of course, we measure EBITDA, like every other business, and cash, even more important, cash in the bank. But we also measure-- And that's really important in the years that we are facing, even more. The lifeblood of every business. But we will say, that's not our reason for being, but it is absolutely our lifeblood. So of course, we measure that. But we also measure really importantly, how are customers are feeling about the service that we provide, and we measure our positive impact in terms of negative impact and carbon emissions, in terms of how we're progressing on reducing our carbon emissions, how much money we raise for charities, and what work we do in the community, and of course, our culture in the form of how our colleagues feel about working at BB&R. So we measure all of those things. It's a kind of holistic approach. And I know that you've got very sporty colleagues that run in cycle and every year. Yes. Quite a big group of us. Which is very-- --which is very-- --the last cycle to Champagne last year. Which was quite brutal. That's me, but it was amazing. And we raised a lot of money. In the last two years, we raised $600,000 for my name's Doddy Motoneur and Disease Foundation. And very inspired and motivated by one of my amazing colleagues, Davey, who has MND, is such an inspiration to us all. And he is our-- incredible. He's our Champagne buyer and our Italy buyer. And he was diagnosed with MND six years ago now. And he is currently in Italy at the moment working hard to qualify for the Paralympics in snowboarding as the first person to-- in principle, they've said yes with the first person with MND to actually be able to do it. Because so often MND kills people quickly. And he-- And also, yeah, in terms of evolution of the disease and-- Yeah, too. Yeah. He always-- I bring the course. Like, right? Yes. Yes. Sorry for today, Davey. We're putting pressure. you're on him by talking about it here. So there's always been this question that I've been asking myself, you know, when you go to number three, then James Street, and you see that beautiful facade, and there's, you know, your name written in big capital letters, and your name's been, you know, in the facade of a business that has been running for 326, 27 years now. When you yourself Lizzie walk into that business every morning, what does it make you feel? I know that English people are not there. Talking about feeling, but like, what, what, yeah, what does it inspire you? How do you feel when you answer those walls? It's, it's a mixture. I'm sure. It is, it's at times, it feels like a huge responsibility to the past and future generations of my family and to end the on. But I prefer to think of it as a gift and a privilege to have the opportunity to contribute and nurture something so special. And I didn't, I don't think I've really realised how special it was until, it would be quite recently really, because, you know, when you grow up with something, you don't, you kind of just take it, you know, sort of don't really, it's just there. And as we were discussing right before we start recording, you so, you know, embedded in your everyday works, sometimes it's difficult to also realise what it represents for people outside of the organisation. Yeah. Which I suppose can add some pressure and excitement both, right? Absolutely. But it is, you know, I think now what I, what I really feel is that, you know, such an amazing opportunity to be part of such a broad community across the world to meet and build relationships with so many interesting, special people, passionate people. And I, and I, when I look back, I remember as a child, so my, my parents used to travel the world, building relationships all over the world, particularly in the US, but, and then, and then many other countries as well. And they built friendships in the spirits worlds and the whiskey world. People are many different nationalities and cultures. And I just thought that was normal. And now I realise that it really wasn't. And it was, it was really special. And now I have the opportunity to do that too. So it's a wonderful thing. I think I loved what you said earlier about cash flow and margins. Like, it's certainly not the reason why you are doing things, but it's the live blood. And you've mentioned the importance of relationship. And, and usually in the wine world, we have that fine line between relationship and friendship and trust and, and, and long term, which to me can be seen as a double-edged sword sometimes. And I think one of the things that your company has done brilliantly, and, and, you know, for 300 years, and it wouldn't be here if it hadn't, but it's building what's the core of the wine business, which is trust and relationship without forgetting the business side, and without forgetting the, the money and the margins side. I just wanted to point it out because, you know, those are conversation that we sometimes forgot, or forget in the wine world. It's just about the relationship. Well, it is. It's fundamental, but it's also making sure that we bring enough enough and every end of the month that we can sustain the business for 300 years. Absolutely. It's such a balance. And, you know, if, for anyone who's, he's just materialistic, and it's, and it's all about money, then they wouldn't be working in the wine trade. Yeah, but the same thing is someone who's just about, yeah. But you're right. We have to, we have to also be commercial. We, we, you know, and it's, but it's not just about money because it's wine, it's lifestyle, it's, it's, it's, to know, to know a bit the your team and the people you work with and some of your buyers, they are amongst the most, you know, clever people that have met and they clever, the business clever in every sense of terms. So of course, they know how to manage relationship and they're very good at that, but they also, you know, I think you are one of the wine companies that I've worked with that has the most data and insights and invest a lot in this as well. So you're not just, you know, highlighting by, you know, smelling the wind and relying on your 300 years of experience, there's a lot of things that you do to be able to manage that business as well. Yeah, watch this space. That's a huge, that's a big area of investment for the future and how to use data better, especially when we talk about the customer of the future. Yes, to make, you know, that data is everything, it's just how, how to use AI and how to digitize it and access it. We have so much rich data here and insights that we just, we're working on how, how we can really use that to, to be a much better brand builder. So Lizzy, we mentioned in the introduction and you've mentioned also that, you know, Barry Bross and Rodd was established in 1698 by the Whittaborn, another leading woman and that she established it like the groceries just in front of Sen James Palace for those of you who don't know London, but that Sen James Palace had become at the time the official residents of the monarch that very same, yeah, so that was very visionary of her to open the shop right in front of the of the Kings house. And one of the things that I prefer when I walk into number three is looking at all the archives, I mean the archives of your company are full of treasures and and I'm sure we can fill, you know, an entire episode just with the many anecdotes and, you know, stories that your company has seen. But we are going to talk about, of course, the future in a minute, but before we do that, I can't help but ask you, what are your favorite anecdotes? What are your favorite stories about the 320 so years that I've just, you know, that are behind you? You're right. Pauline, there are so many stories and anecdotes and different people have different stories and different versions of the stories. Of course. Yeah, sometimes. But I, one of the things that I love is that this site was was on the the tennis court of the the palace, the palace tennis courts and apparently the vegetable patch as well. I love the material of very rather than rather being on the vegetable patch of the King. But it was that how things have changed in the London landscape. Absolutely because this was this was the suburbs here. We were on the edge of London. Yeah, and sure. It's all green space around St James's Park and green park and beyond. So yes, extraordinary to think about what it would have been like then. One of my, one of my favorite anecdotes that makes me laugh that I first heard Simon Berry talking about it when he did a tour of the old shop at number three. There's there's a there's a pair of riding spurs hanging on the wall in the old shop there. What are those for? Why are they there? And he said that back in in the 1800s all our customers came either by horse and carriage or or arrived on their horse. And this was one of our, one of our customers who probably came here to buy wine spirits, maybe coffee, spices and probably to be weighed on the old weighing scales. That was very close. Yeah. So at the time anyway, he left his spurs behind. He forgot his riding spurs when he left and they've been there ever since. Never came back to pick them up. They've been there ever since. So if you're great, great grandfather have lost their spurs, have a check with Berry Bross and Rod in mind. You know, he's once. There are so many stories. I think, you know, that my father used to tell the story of when my grandfather joined the business, he was a Norwich what Norfolk wine merchant third generation of his business and he joined as a as a partner to the the two berry cousins they were by then. That was in 1920. And my, well my grandfather Hugh Rudd was an expert in French wine, particularly Bordeaux. And German wine because German wine was was by big before the second world war. Yes. Yeah. It was up there with the top Bordeaux and that he spent some years living in Germany and new German wine very well and even wrote a book about it. And so that was so they brought him on. But my father always said that wasn't the real reason he was he was employed. There were two other reasons that were the most important rather than his wine expertise. And one was that He was a peacemaker because the two berry cousins actually didn't get on So they so they needed a peacemaker between them and the other reason which perhaps was the most important was that he Rudd could drive and he had a car and You know driving and so you could deliver drive and drive them around the vineyards in France and Germany And so that would make their lives much easier and and the berries were renowned and still are a little bit There's not not being big drivers and being very keen on cars and the Rudd family will and still are quite quite keen on on cars and driving It's it's fascinating those family stories and there's always you know An MW question that goes what are the advantages and disadvantages of being a family business in the wine world and of course in the wine world I mean we've talked about the importance of of time and family business can give you that stability through time But I think we also often forget about the feud and the disagreement and having to work with your own family That's sometimes not the people that you would have chosen other ones So having that kind of balance. I think it's very fascinating also but and you keep and and you keep that Balance today between the berries and the rods right? It's it's co-chair or it's in the executive board We work together. We have a great friendship and I think it's it's actually easier that we're two families rather than one Because it means you know we're diluted and if there are any difficult conversations to have it's much easier with Some some people who you might feel like they're your family, but they're sort of they feel more like cousins But we know we're not related. It just it creates a different energy and enables us to have Some of that perhaps more difficult conversations that British people aren't always very Don't always find it very easy to have I can say that to you as a French person Yes, and as a French person I was very interested also to you know read about the anecdote about Napoleon the third Husing number three as a as an HQ when he was in next time Absolutely from France so that's absolutely an hour I'll pick a stutter seller underground where our biggest event space is called the Napoleon seller after him One of the purpose that I had one of the idea that I had in mind For this podcast is we talked about it just before we start recording we are at kind of a crossroad for the wine world That is under so much pressure at the moment and What seems to me? Impresadented in terms of pressure like environmental pressure due political pressure societal shifts and When I'm getting stressed like this by what I think to me in my lifetime Impresident in pressure. I always like to look at the past and your company's been here for three hundred and twenty Seven years of for sure it has gone through Big big big you know challenges that have been you know also part of history with the capital H Surviving multiple wars and everything what what would be the secret to resilience and is there anything that we can learn from BBR resilience through time that could be useful as we start yet another Yeah, that seems complicated for the wine world. Sorry. That was a very long question Really good question and and we've been asked that a few times before Yeah, I'm sure and like that's one of the responsibility that comes with a status I suppose to guide people through trouble times I think yeah, there are a few key factors and We we always think about the long term We always take a long-term view we think about future generations Can I can I ask you though how how that translate practically because I think that's one of the things that Most entrepreneur in the wine world are trying to do trying to think long-term and act you know short-term those times of balance but it's It seems easy to do but not that easy to execute it. How do you how does that translate? So that is such a good point calling because it used to be much easier, I think to think long-term because Didn't didn't seem to be moving so fast and Lurching from one crisis to the next that seems to be happening now in the world and Where Emma Emma RCO and I did a family business strategy course several years ago Across generations and one of the one of the Lectures we had was on strategy dinner one of the things we were told was to But in the the world that we are now moving into was you actually need to manage a business as if you're always in crisis Which is which is very short term and I'm not saying that we do that But it means that the short term is also Really important so we have Takes the four front yeah, and even now, you know, we used to have a five ten-year plan Now it's really hard to have a you know, we still have a three-year plan But that's really hard. I mean it's really hard to predict what's gonna happen next week little in next year so and and so do you think? Do you think that's something that we hear a lot because we are right in the middle that we are in the eye of the storm like everything is changing rapidly And precedent and change but if we we had been to ask for example your grandfather or your grandmother Would they have had the same impression just because they were in the eye of the of their storm at the time? I think it depends because obviously you know going through My my grandfather kind of held the business through world war two I mean that's a major crisis isn't it and I actually when we when we went through COVID I kind of might sound a bit weird, but I can't Yeah, try to draw on his energy and his experience Because I thought you know my goodness. This is really tough, but you know, we've done it before something as that would have been as tough as this And got through it so we can get through it again So that that's maybe with with the extra with the extra challenge of the extra challenge of infrastructure being destroyed in world war two Absolutely that we didn't have during COVID And so I think there's there's that there's Being being prepared to be bold Each it for us. We always say each generation has to be entrepreneurial entrepreneurial and innovative It's really important that we that we keep that going and that that there is in a that we keep the business agile so because we can't get hung up on the past and the legacy we've got to keep moving forward we've got to be open to change and You know, it's quite a fine balance because there's a family business as well, you know The culture is really important that sometimes we have to take really tough decisions and reshape the business with the future and You know we that that's what creates the longevity we have to we have to Where do you find your inspiration when it comes to that creativity that innovation Do you look at other sectors like how how does it all come to you for your generation? We have to look outside we have to look beyond we look we look to the past and the future because Our options think you know when we're looking at the world today and the issues of climate change You know actually a lot of the answers for the future lie in the past You know and we can yeah with it like their focus on nature and biodiversity and indigenous communities how they how they used to be in the world and A lot a lot of answers there to the for the future and if we combine that with the world today and looking ahead and the future and technology and entrepreneurial spirit There and a huge dose of optimism. I think I think that's a big You know when we spend a lot of time looking at the risks ahead of us, but everywhere there's a risk There's also an opportunity or several opportunities. So you have to look at both the two sides of the coin always Hey listeners just interrupting the conversation for a few seconds First to let you know how grateful we are that you are listening to this episode Thank you so much and also to kindly ask you to subscribe to our podcast channel on whatever platform you are listening This episode on and to give us a cool rating It's such an easy way to support us and it really makes all the difference. Thank you so much now back to our conversation Lizzie, we've talked about, you know, we had a very short look at your past and some of the, you know, anecdotes and, and oh, no, yeah, something I wanted to ask you actually, before I moved to the resilient question, there was a question I forgot which I found quite interesting. So you've told us about, you know, the different anecdotes that I've paved the way of, of BBR, but if we had to look back at maybe three or four key moments or key dates in the history of the company that you think are relevant to understand either where it is today or the world of wine today as we know it. Yes. So I think there were probably two really key moments and one was in 1923 when the three partners, that's the two Barry cousins, one of the one Rudd, were together round a table and they decided they decided to launch a whiskey brand into the US market, which was Sticati Sark that you mentioned before. During prohibition. I would have to be smuggled through the moharmers and one of the partners, Francis Barry, was very entrepreneurial and he travelled a lot and the other two Charles Walter Barry and my grandfather were really cautious and very conservative and I can only imagine that he must have told them how easy it was and that it was all legal and that it was all going to be fine and managed to convince them somehow and then it was going to be quite a conservative whiskey. They wanted a light coloured whiskey because that was a very new style that they thought would appeal to the American palette which absolutely did but the packaging was quite subdued, was meant to be. Anyway the printers got the label wrong, it had the ship on it, it was meant to be a nice neutral beige colour and it came out bright canary yellow which was a mistake and they decided it was so striking that they'd keep it and they would just. it went through the moharmers through Captain Bill McCoy and he was a really well-known the best shipper to go through the moharmers to get the whiskey into the US and we just took off, we couldn't get enough whiskey and so by the time prohibition ended it took off and became the best-selling scotch in the US market and in Manhattan perhaps of all time in New York. It's such a fascinating story like of course we would not advise anyone to go legally into the smuggle product but I guess the fact that you know there was different members of the family we talked about it so it's not just one person deciding but it's like that group of different character and different approach to whiskey I suppose, which is really interesting. So that was one pivotal moment that's why we're still here today really and the other one was a tragic moment which was during World War II, on the berry and the rod side the two supposed heirs to the business the two elder sons were both tragically killed in World War II and my father and Tony Berry who were the second sons, they were both second sons were kind of thrown into the business together and they formed this incredible bond because they had had this tragic experience so they both lost their older brother and they weren't expecting to have to join the business and it you know they had experienced the sacrifices and hardships as a result and they created this incredibly warm friendship and lasting lasting friendship between these two families that in Jews today and you know that that history and remembering that why we came together as two families is really very special. And I guess again in times like today when you have to remember where your strengths lies and the type of culture and that you want to put forward and that you want to bring to the world as well. So we've talked about the past for a bit, we will talk about the future but the step in between quite logically is to talk about the present or at least to talk about the recent past because I mean we've mentioned it before that the speed and the pace of change has been rather unprecedented at least for people that are living with it, that are contemporary. So if we go back to timeline which is the last five years what did happen in your part of the world of wine that you were not expecting five years ago things that were not here and that are here today and kind of surprised you in. Well COVID of course is yes of the obvious one. That may be more resilient, that may just take some really tough decisions and restructure and reconfigure our business. It may just want to primary all as well. Can you give us some practical examples because I think we finished talking about COVID like if it happened 50 years ago and everything was back to normal but I think we underestimate the impact that it still has and we might talk about people reducing the drinking but to me that's a direct link to COVID and people having probably drunk too much during COVID. So practically what kind of decision did you have to take and how did COVID impact your business and led to what it is today five years later. So we took the decision to scale right back our wholesale business, FNV which was a huge decision at the time but you know it wasn't a cash generative business but it was really tough because it meant we had to make quite a lot of redundancies. We had to find new business originally had been a family business with a similar history than yours. Yes and we had to find new homes for a lot of wine producers. We were really worried about our reputation at the time and we had a lot of hospitality customers and other retail customers that we had to say goodbye to and the communication of that and the actually putting that into practice was really hard because also it was all online. It was all dished on, none of it could be face to face. That was really tough and it made us, we learnt so much, it made us more resilient but it was absolutely the right thing to do and it enabled us to restructure that part of our business so that we, it made us brave actually because some of our wine producers, we, who, amazing people that we worked with, we said to them, you know we can't look after you as a UK agent across all the portfolio any longer but our strategy anyways we want to focus on the on the hot top end wines anyway could we, can we still buy some of those direct from you and should all they'll never say yes and most of them did say yes and so it gave us more confidence and we, and we retained our friendships with the producers that we couldn't work for any longer or work with any longer but it, it made us more confident and it made us bolder for the future I think. It certainly made us more entrepreneurial because we said we did online tastings, we did home delivery meals, wine, wine focused and region focused meals to keep our kitchen going here, we're not a chef preparing meals and delivering them to homes around the country to finish at home. We never had done that something like that if that hadn't happened. And do you start doing it? No, we don't. We do prefer to entertain people here rather than getting food and what, with some wine to their rooms but get them to come back. And also I think that's a lesson that a lot of people in a hospitality have learned is like having a business of food to go versus having a business of hosting people is slightly two different models and it's very difficult to have them both running at the same time. Yes and we'd much rather we want to bring people together and we might talk about this shortly but I think you know the future is about and that's one of the things we learned from Covid, we thought the world was going to become very digital and everything was going to be online after that. And it is becoming very digital but not at the expense of the in-person contact and bringing people together properly seems more special and more important now and that's not going to go away. And then for the young generation, again, still very important. It's it's again that that frame that I'm hearing since we've start talking it's, it's how do you handle relationship in a in a way that it makes business sense? And again, because relationship is the core, but how do you work it out with technology with all of the things that you can scale a relationship up and you can actually make business sense out of that? So, COVID was a, COVID was a big one. And one of the lessons is don't be afraid to take the hard decision because it must have been quite a big decision. How, how quickly after did you decided to sell it just to just to realize how quickly you had to take that decision? So COVID breaks in the UK around March 2020, when did you sell FMV? We didn't sell it. We just we we scaled the fact and restructured. Okay, so I'm at several months later, literally quickly. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So that was a very quick decision to tell. I just I remember thinking, you know, are we going to have to just mothball the whole business because I was really worried about our people doing all the logistics down in the in the warehouse down in Basingstoke. And I know, if oh my god, what are we going to do if then if somebody dies? You know, we're following all the protocols, but it that was the biggest responsibility on, of course. Yeah. And then and then Boris Johnson said, it's okay, wine, wine is essential. So as long as we were following the protocol, it was the responsibility of the government. So that was a, yeah, that was a moment of river, and luckily we were all fine. Don't we came through it? Pove this, didn't we? Pove it was a big one. Any other event in the last five years? Well, there are always things that we're not expecting. And things that we do it, do it, expect, I think, you know, one of it. Think one of this one of the things I wasn't expecting. I wasn't expecting. I wasn't expecting the investment in technology to be so much and take so long. Okay. It's in terms of money, like, to be that expensive. Yeah. And I know every business is the same, but the investment in technology and digital business transformation has been a major, major, major challenge. You know, we're getting there, but goodness me, it's so expensive. And you know, even like this last year, we invested not just in technology, but technology and innovation, 20, 27 million pounds. And you know, it's a real stage of investment to transform the business so that so that we're much more automated to enable us to give more personal service. Yes, that makes sense. And again, it's that that how do you manage relationship that you can keep the quality of them with keeps scaling up? And the time is interesting here as well, because when it comes to digital, people have at least I have that weird idea that because it's digital, it's going to be immediate and it's going to be very quick because it's supposed to allow you to pick up actually the transformation phase is really long. And you mentioned also at the very beginning that you've launched your first non-alcoholic dream that's a sparkling tea, I guess, if I'm not wrong. And I had very heated conversation with some of your colleagues about about this. It wasn't something that you were expecting expected, I mean five years ago, was it something that you would have expected BBR to go into something that's neither wine nor spirits? I think five years ago it was probably on the distant horizon. Okay. But now, you know, there's so much, this actually really quite annoys me that the anti-alcohol, you know, that the messaging that we're getting all the time about, there's no safe, safe level of alcohol. And I know people are being much much more responsible about drinking and we always promote the mantra, you know, drink less but better quality. And, you know, but the kind of anti-alcohol not being just seems, I don't know, it seems. And balance, yeah, out of kilter and unjust. And not actually following the science and also of course not all alcohol is equal. But anyway, but how is that project been? Are you happy with? Because you've launched a couple of months ago. So, yes, we're following the berries label, sparkling tea in November. We've almost sold out of the first tranche. It's early days because obviously it's the repeat business that we want to see. Of course, we've got, you know, really good take up of people trying it over Christmas. And we will hopefully get more uptake. And of course, we're selling other people's non-acorolic drinks. We just got our own, we've just put a label on a brand called Botivo. The coach is a botanical spirit, again, not sweet. And we've done a collaboration with Botivo, which is a really interesting company and interesting product. They are, they're very regenerative in their in their outlook and their approach in terms of the land. And so that's interesting. I think it's an area that we we will we must we must look we must get more involved with. And how do you structure the company for this leg? Do you have one of your wine buyer that's also in charge of the non-acor? Do you have a specialist? How did you structure the alternative drinks? I think with with the sparkling tea it was because it was sparkling and it's very much similar to a sparkling wine. We we had our innovation director Jordy who's one of the Barry family who was leading it. And Davey who's our sparkling wine champagne buyer. Working together. Okay. Together on it. Which so again going back five years so almost the present which of your provisions turn out to be true or turn out to happen? If I had asked you five years ago what do you think is going to happen and now looking five years now? I think I would go to again they're going back to the predictions of after COVID that everything was going to become digital. We were going to stay at home and that hasn't happened. But I've always thought that you know experience providing experiences is going to be a really important part of the future of our industry. And bringing people together. And that I think is happening more and more. Every we're all talking about it all the time. How do we provide the experiences? That connection of people connecting together. And what better way to do that than over a glass of wonderful wine and telling the stories of where it comes from and how it's produced and the people that made it? So again it all sounds so I'm going to ask you the question because it all sounds so easy. I think a lot of us in the wine world are absolutely convinced that experience are key and then connecting people are key and that is so important for the future. A fine wine and so nice and create so much value for everyone. But how do you do it like practically when you decided to be one of the business for which the mission is to bring people together around a glass of wine if I summarize that? How do you structure that team and how do you gear your business towards that? I'm trying to find out what it takes to be successful in that mission. So with our events business here, our hospitality business here, that's the foundation of it. We have lots of ticketed wine events, wine tastings, wine education, ticketed dinners with top producers and with producers from around the world. But that's just the foundation. And we're just working on how do we develop that part of that part of the business around the world? And yeah, it's it. How big is the team? Now for the event because you said a thousand event a year so that's you know three per day or six. Within our events team we probably have 25, 30 people. And you have a chef if I understand correctly. Yeah, a chef with team in residence. Yeah, an exact chef. Are you usually about 12 people in the kitchen? If that's about right, maybe more than that sometimes. And what if I can ask you what's the part of the revenue which is directly just generated by events and not wine bottles that you sell very small Okay, okay, so it's still not too massive Good morning. It's good margin business, but it's very small. That's why it's it's like it's the foundation of our Of our kind of brand building Yeah, which and it's probably one of them one of the most difficult to scale up as well Because you need people Yeah, just get to scale that up. Yes If we look ahead now and if we look in the near future and the next probably you know five years and You embark on that journey on you know developing BBR for you know the next generation What what keeps you awake at night at the moment? What are your biggest worries as the chair of you know Britain's all-dust wine merchant? so I would I think Climate change is the biggest threat Okay to all of us I think we we ignore it at our peril and I say that knowing what's going on in the US at the moment We ignore it at our peril and wait for someone else to deal with it or for someone else to save us I don't know if the if you've seen the movie don't look up Yes, yes, yeah But it's yeah, it's hard to watch actually yeah, it's terrible, but it says it all And it feels it certainly feels like the new cycle even in the wine world has moved up Slide heat to something else like if you look back to your three years ago There was so many things about climate change so many covers coverage of you know, you know Dastrophe or weather hazard and it seems like at least from where I stand I can see slightly less of that So you know people say okay. Yeah, it's climate change again. We don't want to talk about it. Yeah, everything has been said Yeah, but it's it it is major you know and that I think you want to look every every wine producer Hansper producer we speak to anyone who's connected to the land Feels it they experience it every year every day. We experienced it directly for the first time last year when we bought our English vineyard And that had the worst harvest ever Because the weather was so awful in the UK as well as in other European and other wine regions across the world. It was so cold and so wet. Have you been able to To cost the cost of climate change or to at least have an idea of what Climate change cost you as a retailer? I Have no idea. It's a good question. I don't know how we would measure that We we have measured all our carbon emissions so we be aligned with science-based targets so we can Have a really clear plan of how to how to reduce down to net zero and very clear targets where we need to get to by 2030 and How we can measure against them So you know, we're doing all that And we're following the B court framework Yeah, we really like to become B court. Hopefully that's gonna happen soon But in terms of it, I think we all just have to do our best and it's a complete minefield Put our energy into it because from my understanding one of the biggest cost for retailers when it comes to climate change is You know the consistency of supply And then you know from a year to another you might have developed those relationship and those trust with by producer and then because of Very big vintage variation you're not able to buy everything that you need and you need to source differently And suddenly even at the region scale you can't find you know, I'm talking about shardon a in burgundy for example In Pinolein burgundy that you have to go and find some place else So I was just wondering if there was in any other way That climate change was directly costing you as a retailer. Well, we just we have to we have to prepare for You know, it's like the the coming year in 2025 There's not going to be much you know, so much of our businesses on premar board O and burgundy and There's not going to be very much wine So we will we'll have to do things differently But it's at least at least we have a year's warning for that and we we can go right okay, what so how how how are we going to Hit our targets in 2020 when 2024 comes around in burgundy. Yes Yeah, yeah, so we're we we we we just have we just have to be more adaptable And more agile than then perhaps we were previously And it's not easy. It's certainly not um, what would you say is the biggest opportunity for the fine wine world So I've asked you what keeps you awake at night that maybe what makes you wake up in a good mood in the morning What motivates you so it in in often it's that it's the two sides of the coin So we're just talking about climate change being the biggest threat. Yes, but sustainability and Acting to regenerate the earth wherever we can is a massive opportunity And I'd say it was the the the biggest opportunity for the wine fine wine world today is a combination of sustainability and technology Yep, and The sustainability to my mind is not a choice. It's something that we all have to do and the consumer of the future will demand it So we might as well get on with it anyway um And technology the technology that's being developed now is just is going to change the world beyond our imagination and quickly And even without talking about AI, I don't know if that's what you were referencing to but What I like about what you said in the regenerative viticulture part And looking at the past I hear too often In in the world of wine of people adjacent to the world of wine saying oh, we should go back to how our grandparents were doing things And I grew up in a farming family and I know how my grandparents were farming I know the states in which they were at the end of their life I know the position of the woman in those societies and I'm like If people left the land and left farming to go and work for Industries there was a reason it because farming as our grandparents did farm It wasn't really sustainable for you in individuals life and but today you totally right like we have the technology to allow us to learn from the past But use technology to make it Yeah, and a family for everyone Apply the amazing technology. I mean there's incredible drone technology and agriculture now And there's oh my goodness. There's there's there's so much being developed And if we can combine those two things that's it's It's an enormous It's it's the GPS tool with the mind of a very good driver. Yes, so it's It's both and communicate that across the world to consumers to our customers and to our not yet customers Yeah, yeah, well that's the not yet consumers is the perfect segue because for my last question You know if we look further ahead in the future. So in the next 50 years if you had a magic wand What would BBR look like in 50 years and what would the world of wine look like in 50 years? What would we found in your perfect picture? Wow That's on a program. Yeah, I'd love to see I would like BB and R to be a social enterprise We moving in that direction anyway. That doesn't mean that it's not a commercial organization by the way But it's you can you define a social enterprise be corpus of social enterprise. Okay. It's beyond profit It's yeah a force for good businesses a force for good Still a business it would be and then it's it's it's it fits so well for the Wine world to let it to me it makes so much sense like every wine business should be beyond Yeah, you know just beyond of course a business But with that core purpose at the center right and and the social we would be telling people where we are Yeah, we're social lubricant and we are human-based business But it's time that we actually show that Perfect purpose people and planet We'd be net zero carbon Obviously across the world, but yes across the whole wine ecosystem We'd be bringing people together in a physical space to talk together to eat and drink together And to connect them to the land in a way that I feel you know, we've lost that today. We need to bring that back I hope people will still drink wine in 50 years time But if they don't they'll need to drink something So we can provide that you know, perhaps it will all be about the properties and the energy of the water You know, maybe you know what maybe there'll be speciality water who knows But yeah, then people will be drinking functional drinks. Yeah exactly health drinks, functional drinks, top quality water who knows and I hope I'm sure we'll still be drinking wine. And I hope my family and the very family will still own buried brothers and Rudd as long as they enjoy nurturing it and it nurtures them in return. Yes, just hit me with what you said because to me it's so embedded that very baby and are have been doing wine forever. But actually they haven't. What you were saying is like whatever people drink, of course we love wine, but whatever people drink, be it coffee or spirit or functional drinks, we will find a way to bring them the best quality of that kind of drink. And I find that really interesting and quite innovative in the wine world. So thank you very much for that Lizzie. Lizzie, thank you so much for being with me today. It's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you, it's been a pleasure. Thank you Pauline. Thank you for listening to this episode of a Rene Global in Conversation. A Rene Global is a think tank dedicated to the future of fine wine and when we're not podcasting, we are publishing reports, white papers, articles and marketing sites. So if you are interested in the global conversation around fine wine and what the future holds in terms of adoption, distribution and consumption, add over to our website www.rene.global. That's A-R-E-N-I and subscribe to our newsletter. All the links are in the show notes. Because whether you are producing or selling fine wine, you need to know what's happening in the world so you can make informed decisions. Until next time, cheers!