Thriving in the Messy Middle with Jessica Studholme: Where Growth Actually Happens

[music] Welcome to Fearless Females, where ambition needs resilience. Meet your guide, Laurie Jones, owner of Fearless Financial Advisors. Join her and remarkable women executives as they uncovered the triumphs and transformative moments shaping extraordinary careers. Ready to be Fearless? Let the journey begin! Good morning. Thank you so much again for joining me here on Fearless Females. I love these stories. I love these women and it's so exciting to just hear about their journey. And this one is a good one. So today we're talking with Jessica. And she said this quote in one part of our interview that I really loved. She said the obstacle isn't something that's in your path. It's the path itself. And that just made me stop and think a little bit. What would my life be like if I considered these, you know, you always have these like catastrophes, especially when you have busy career and a big family and you're like, "Oh, things aren't. It's probably about 10% of the time that everything is going perfectly and everyone is doing everything they should all the time." The rest of the 90% of the time, it's pretty much chaos. And it feels like I sometimes wish those moments away or wish them faster. And I'm not probably enlightened enough yet to sit in that hard time and really be grateful for it. But afterwards, I can usually look back and say, "Oh, that taught me something really important." And I think that's where Jessica is coming from. We all need to hear, especially in the messy middle of our hard times, that the obstacle isn't something to push through or get over or wish away, but it's actually your path to learning it itself. It's actually where you're going to grow the most, where you're going to learn the most, where you're going to hear about. You're going to make your career shifts, you're going to make your big decisions, you're going to have your aha moments. Those are the experiences that help us become who we were always meant to be. And I love that thought and I spent a lot of time just sitting and thinking about that. And like I said, I'm not quite ready to embrace the sack in the middle. But I do think that there is something really powerful about going through those experiences and coming out of them and realizing that you have really grown. I love that. I love this message. If it resonates with you and you feel like someone else could hear it, please share. Because as we are this sisterhood of women just trying to do well at our career and our lives and our families and our world, sharing that message that might make a difference in somebody's life, I think is really important. So let's get started with Jessica. Good morning, Phyllis Females. So today we are here with Jessica's at home. She is CRO of Hello Sunshine. And I'm so excited to get to chat with you Jessica. Thank you so much for taking the time with us today. Thank you for having me. I'm so honored to be here with you. So you told me that you go by JJ or Jessica Jones. So I love that. I might use that. My son is actually Joshua Jones. And so he goes by JJ or J Squared too. I love it. Well, I fell in love with your site the minute that I saw it because it was all of these gorgeous imagery of superheroes. And my joke all the time is Marvel made a program about Jessica Jones, right? A couple of years ago. And I was always like, God, I want to be that version of Jessica Jones. Yeah, powerful, amazing. Exactly. You probably already are that version. You just don't know it. Let's hope, right? Well, my first question is always my favorite. And it is, what is your favorite book? I love this question. I love this question for so many reasons. Partly because I spent last Saturday in Pasadena at this female author's festival. And reading is a huge, huge part of my life. And I could give you a million fictional books that I love. But I felt like the better choice for this podcast is a book that I read and I go back to frequently. And it's called The Oztacle is the Way. And it's by Ryan Holiday. And the thing that I love about this book so much is the idea that the obstacle isn't something that's in your path. And it has shown up in so many different moments of my life. I started my career in very traditional media and between industry disruption, between becoming a mom, between dealing with a lot of unexpected. I would say stops on that journey to becoming a mom and navigating life. There were so many obstacles in the way. And looking back, I realized that those were part of shaping my life and shaping my path. And it just resonates with me so good. So so strongly. I'll pause there for a second. I love that. And you know what? I was just thinking the other day as I, I came up to kind of through the operations piece. And so I've done just about every job you could do inside of financial services. Like I have, I will say that I probably have done every job you can do at least once. And as I opened up my own firm under my own brand, I was sitting one day doing some operations work on the backside. And I, I was, I, I will, I kid you not Jessica, I almost cried. I was like my whole career, my whole life has prepared me for this moment. Like I'm sitting here doing this stuff that I have done four or five times. I know I'm doing a good job at it. I know I'm well prepared for this next step in my life. And it's because I had those, you know, ups and downs through my career, those, those hard things, those bumps in the road. Those obstacles. Oh, yeah. And it's brought me to where I am today. And I'm so happy that this is where I am. I, I could almost cry. And I love that that book is your suggestion. Oh, well, I, they're my favorite chapter in the whole book is prepare for none of it to work. And I say it to myself all day every day. I love how you said that in terms of all of these chapters prepared you for that moment. I feel like the darkest hours are the ones where you find this well of courage and this well of strength that you never knew existed. And I tell my children that all the time, like these moments in life are the ones that ultimately shape you. And you will look back even though I know it's so hard to do it in the moment and you will thank them, you will thank them for the path that it put you on. You didn't expect it. You didn't want it. But here you are, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and when you get to that point where you are able to look back and realize that these experiences that you didn't want at the time and that you were just praying you could get through as quickly as possible. Yes. Really made you into the person you are. And, and you see the beauty that is in your life now because of those trials, those hard times or those obstacles. It really does. It's an emotional experience, at least for me. It just makes me feel like, oh, thank goodness. I wasn't in charge of the whole path because I would have got a round or three or over 100%. One of my favorite quotes in life. And I hope this makes you chuckle is, wait a minute, trust in God, but lock your car. And I just, it's one of those things that is just so I was a girl scout growing up and one of the taglines in the girl scout is always be prepared. And I feel like there have been so many parts of my life that I have not been prepared for. But that's when you really show internally what you are built for and how you can find the nimble and the nimble way I should say to constantly repair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. So let's talk a little bit about your journey. Tell me a little bit about kind of how you got started. Like did you know from age three or two or five that what you were going to be or was it a little bit of a windy path? What are you doing now? Like tell me about you. Sure. Okay. So when I was three, I wanted to be a rock cat. That's what I wanted to be. That was my career goal and aspiration. I grew up in a big family and I think that that's that that's always a fun place to start. I'm one of five kids. And I had an incredible stay at home mom who really created the foundation for everything that we did. And my father was always in business and he was always either like an EVP of sales or a CRL at whatever company he worked for. And I think that watching him interact and engage with his clients, watching him build teams, probably influenced me more than I even realized at the time to go into my line of work. I would say that it was in my early 20s where I really had my first inflection point and that was when I moved to San Francisco. And I moved to San Francisco from Columbus, Ohio, which looking back at hilarious because San Francisco to me was like a juk-hann. I mean, it was like a whole new world and in every way shape and form it was. And something I say a lot as you can take a girl out of Columbus, Ohio. but you can't take Columbus Ohio out of the girl. And that was very true for me. I've been out in California now for about 30 years and it still resonates. So I had never sold advertising and I absolutely knew nothing about it. And I think that there's something really beautiful about being young and just jumping and taking a risk and believing that you can learn anything. Like just I can do this, right? Yeah. They were very, it's interesting to look back at that because I was stumbling through life trying to figure out a new city, a new set of friends, a new job. But that led me, that experience at this tech company in San Francisco and it was right in the middle of the boom, led me to where the next chapter of my career was, which was on the brand side. And so I did my journey backward. Most people start in print and go to digital. I started in digital and went back to print. And so my first job was at Rolling Stone and that led me to teen people and that led me to Condé Nast at Vanity Fair and that led me to Sports Illustrated. And I fell in love with how media could shape culture and these editors who told these incredible stories that would be the catalyst for global dialogue. And I felt like I was really using my left brand and my right brand and it was just magical. I think back to that chapter and it was so much fun. And then the whole world started to shift. And print was changing and digital was emerging and I found myself being drawn to the next chapter. But my next chapter and that's like the first, like expect the unexpected and the obstacle is the way is I left timing at the time, which was I was working in the tech category there. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was like, I'm putting, I put on this sweater for 20 years of my career. And now I don't have that same zest and vigor that I did when I moved out to San Francisco that I felt like I could change the world. I didn't actually even understand what I wanted to do. And that was one of the first things that I wanted to talk to you about today was the power of mentorship and the power of connections and the power of your network itself because I was introduced to this woman who I still talk to today and I will look at her as my guardian angel in that chapter. And she said to me, listen, I want you to take a meeting with this gentleman and it's going to be completely outside of advertising. And I want you to get really comfortable with that because your skills are translatable and you can do this. And I went downtown. I had never spent any time in downtown Los Angeles. It's like, it's not like downtown San Francisco. It's probably not like downtown Denver. It's not at that time even. It wasn't like the thriving metropolis it is now. And I met the CEO of a company within Axis called-- I'm sorry, AEG, an act called Axis. And that role was really truly about leaving media altogether and selling partnerships, selling events, really and immersing myself in a new revenue model. And it was so much fun, Lori. I literally woke up every day with fear in my bones. But it was the best kind of fear because you were like, I don't have the answers. I am going into a meeting. I am like, one of these things doesn't belong here. And it's because it's me. And I'm sitting in a room with engineers trying to figure out the tech stack for this venue entry software. But guess what? We're going to sell it. And we're going to have great success here. And we're going to have a lot of fun as we're doing it. So that was this complete diversion that I thought at the time in my career was a diversion. But it really wasn't because it laid me-- it actually set me up for the next chapter of my career, which was the next seven years at Bustal Digital Group, where we were doing events. We were doing social. We were digging into talent. We were doing-- gosh, all sorts of new emerging media executions and platforms. And I'll be really honest with you and transparent, which was, I had no idea that what I thought was this diversion in my career was really just bedrock to continue to build, if that makes sense at all. In the background, I was trying to start a family. And I had had my first son. And then, as I mentioned at the top of the bar call, I went one of five. My dad's one of seven. My mom's one of eight. Infertility was not something that was going to do. My problem in the world-- I had a lot of problems. But that was not going to be one of them. So that really put a tremendous amount into perspective for me, because you realize very quickly that you can try to keep every single ball in the air. But over time, you realize which one's really matter to keep in the air. So that's kind of something that I try to take with me now in my leadership and in my approach to life. And some days are easier than others, as I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. So that experience kind of flowed through as you started having teens of your own, in the way that you interacted, and the way that you showed up for them, and that sort of thing. 100%. One of my comments, especially to my team members that are starting families, especially to my team members that are dealing with some serious issues outside of these box that we find ourselves in every single day is, hey, listen, we're trying to do the most efficient and the most powerful work in the hours that work together during the work day. But the whole goal of doing that work is so that we can leave these boxes and go to the things that matter. And those are the things that feed our souls. Those are the things that bring us this new perspective and context that we can bring to this work every single day. I can tell you that being a mom has been the most fulfilling and the most challenging job of my life. And I think about that as I think about leading teams. It was someone told me a couple of years ago, everyone just wants to be walked home. And there's just so much power in that in terms of the ability to be that person, to be that guide, and to be that leader that sees beyond the fact that you are Laurie Jones and you are here to do a job. You are Laurie Jones and you are a human. And that human perspective and that humanity that you bring to this job every day is what makes you so great. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. And I do think that like your outside life really does, if you can integrate it into what you do, it makes it a richer experience for you and your life, but also for your company that you're working for. Agreed. Yeah, it just, it makes it into something that's better than it would have been if you had, have you, if you'd kept it separate, right? Agreed. 100%. So Jessica, tell me about the best investment you've made in yourself. As you kind of have gone through your journey, is there something you can be like, oh my gosh, so glad I did that. Yeah, yeah, I can. One of the best investments that I have made in myself is continuing to invest in leadership and career coaches myself. I think that my father once told me to hang my diploma in my closet because it is a daily reminder that you never stop learning. And I think that when we decide in a variety of different ways that we know the answers and supposedly, there's not much more to learn. I'm like, I've been doing this for so long. And then you bring yourself a new perspective and you really sit down and you do the oftentimes hard. And I will use this word very deliberately, ugly work. It's the ugly work where you sit there with yourself and you think about especially what your own strengths are, what your own weaknesses are, what your intangibles are. What is it that defines who you are? And how can you bring that, and how can you bring those strengths to really maximize the team and the company that you work for and with? And how can you be an evangelist for those things to others? I invested in personal coaching for the first time about 10 years ago and it changed my life. I realized that we are all beautiful evolving creatures and we change so much. And I also think the other thing that I love is I love working with youth. I love doing my own mentorship and I love working with this generation which is the millennial, genzennial, genzzy, next to a congenial alpha that so many people are scared of, but I'm not because they just, they teach me so much about who I am and they remind me of what I was younger. God, it's so great. It's so great to wake up every single day and feel like you can change the world. You can't, you know? So I would say that. I would say if I were to drill it down, it's my own personal coaching and it's giving that to the younger generation. Yeah, I like that. And I think that that, you know, is I work with my own kids that are in that, I call it the baby adult stage where they're just learning to adults and sometimes those are hard lessons to learn but they have so many great ideas and they're, you know, they're coming out of institutions a lot of times, colleges or learning and they do have that sense of like, oh, I can do anything. I just have to, you know, I just have to be taught and I love nurturing rather than questioning that because it's so much fun to see what they come up with and they come up with such great ideas sometimes, don't they? Oh, my God, 100%. You know, Kelly Corgan is another one of my favorite authors. She's based in the Bay Area, really, really beautiful ability to tell the most gorgeous stories. And one of her books is "Tell Me More." And I just love those three words, "Tell Me More." I want to know more about that. First, selfishly, it's a way to buy time, especially when you're just like a flat footer or you need a little bit more, or if you're shocked by the question or the line of the narrative that someone's giving you. But it also really, truly is like the ability to open up a conversation to a place that you can learn so much more about an individual, the way that they got to that decision, the way that they frame their own thinking. So I just love those three words. - And I think that you brought up a really good point about the coaching too. And I just want to emphasize that just a little bit, is that you're like, they can see things in me that I can't see in myself, or they can emphasize the strengths in me. They also tend to be pretty honest about where you maybe have weaknesses. And I don't like looking at my weaknesses. - No, it's the worst. It's the worst to look at yourself in the mirror like with a very, very clean and sober face and say, "Wow, this is a pattern that is definitely that shows up, that shows up throughout my career." But I think that the beautiful thing about a coach and I'd love your perspective on this, is the way that they frame it is also so nurturing and beautiful. I was talking to a friend this morning and she was complaining about the fact that, you know, she's in her own transition and she was complaining about the fact that, you know, she doesn't feel like she's good at making a tremendous amount of contacts and asking for help and, you know, really leaning in to her network. And I said, "Listen, I'm gonna give you a pro about that." The pro is that you cultivate relationships, you go deep, you go narrow. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think that like the beauty of forcing yourself to be comfortable with being uncomfortable is something that's really important in life. But don't underestimate what makes you so powerful, which is go deep, you go narrow. I'm sorry, you go deep, you go narrow. Yeah, you go deep, and there's time to go wide. Like, there's still time for that, you know? - Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that they do have a, that's how come I like working with coaches so much is because a lot of times, that first of all, they'll see things that you don't see and they don't come at you, like, Lori, your complete scrub, give up now. (laughs) You know, there's a few things that, have you thought about this or have you considered it this way, and they just have a gentle way of working year round to, and sometimes they can even make you like, you think about yourself. Oh, well, what if I did this? And they're like, "Yeah, what if you did?" - Oh, I will tell you, there were many moments over the course of my life where I'm like, you know what, I'm an avid yoga, yogi, I should say, and I try my best to practice daily. And there have been many times over the course the last couple of months, candidly, where I'm like, "You know what, yoga instruction." This is it, this is my next career step. And it's not to say that, like, that doesn't factor in to maybe some of my future, but like, I think that that's the beauty of being open with yourself and having that freedom and that open container to say, "Hey, like the old adage, "if you knew you weren't gonna fail, what would you do?" Like, if you really have cool, you know? And when you ask yourself that question and you really listen to the answer, sometimes it's very different than where you find yourself showing up every day. - What about the worst advice? Have you ever gotten some really, really bad advice and did you take it? - No, you know what, but I remember it very, very clearly. It was a moment in which there was a brand that I really, really wanted to go work for. And I was gunning for a job at this brand. And I remember that I met with a gentleman who worked at the company, like, not at that brand specifically. This is a condenedest. And he sat across from me at the breakfast table and he said, "Listen, there's no way "you're ever gonna get a job within that brand for X, Y, and Z. "And if you want a job within that brand, "you need to be X, Y, and Z." And I remember leaving. And again, I was probably in my, still in my 20s, still feeling very emboldened, still feeling very, you know. - Fair less, fair less. - Fair less. And I remember leaving thinking, you know what? I don't have, like, that is the most horrible advice that anyone could ever give you. Like, if you want this job, you need to change who you are. You need to be someone different. You need to show up in a different way. And wouldn't you know, two years later, I was sitting in that chair doing that job. And a friend of mine said, "Well, you need to call him "and you need to tell him," I said, "No, getting the job is enough." Like, I made the statement that, you know, I could have done this, I did it through being in JJ and not having to change myself into someone else. I also think that, and I do have to say this because I think it's shown up a lot in my career. And I think it's probably shown up for a lot of women that the advice that you need to be more like a man, the advice that you need to show up in more of a manner that a gentleman would do in the marketplace. And that has always frustrated me. That has always been one of those things where it falls on deaf ears with me and I hope it falls on deaf ears with the women that are listening to your podcast because there is such a beauty about showing up in the female form and doing the work. And I don't think that it has anything to do with your gender. I think it has to do with the intrinsic motivation that you bring to the job every single day and the discipline that you have to do that job. And I can't believe we're still in a world in which that's still a conversation. But I also know that it's going to be this way for many years to come. - Yeah, yeah. And I love that women in general are kind of leaning into that authenticity too. To that like, you know, a lot of professions, especially male dominated professions say, this is the way you must do this profession. And women nowadays are kind of looking at that and saying that that isn't me. It doesn't feel like me. It doesn't fit me. I'm going to try it differently. And they show up authentically as themselves and they find that they resonate with, you know, with people and with different, maybe it's a different group of people. Maybe they aren't going after the same client space, but they do the people that understand that that's who you are and that's how you show up. They're attracted to that and they come to find you. - Agreed. And it's the energy that you bring, right? It's the authentic, real energy. And those words have always resonated with me. I feel like, you know, it's one of the things I say to my team's a lot is, "Hey, I'm going to be honest and I'm going to be me "because there is really no other way to be," right? - What you see is what you get. I actually do that all the time. I'm like, I can't be different. I could try. - Oh, yeah. And I feel like it builds such an immediate level of trust that like, oh, okay. Like she is who she says she is, right? And I can trust her to actually have my back and to show up for me the way that she's asking me to show up for her every day, you know? - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just, I tried the dark blue suits and the all the, I tried fitting into that world and it just, it just isn't me. I'm a little bit pink. I am just a little bit pink. - I love the pink. I love the pink and I love like the softer lines. I love the cotton versus the polyester. I love all of that, right? Yeah. Yeah. - What about a do over it, JJ? If you look back kind of along your path, is there like something you can say, gosh, I would do that over again. And this is how I would do it differently. Knowing what you know now. - Yes, yes. - And that chapter is very clear. I would have left earlier. I would have trusted my gut, which leads us every single day. We just don't listen to it myself included. And I would have made the decision to leave sooner. I feel like there is a moment in life that we all go through. I've had many moments myself where, okay, it's a good job. I love this job. I'm doing great work. I love my team. It's really, really toxic and it's really, really bad, but I can get through it based on the other things that are going on. And if you really force yourself to step back and to sit at 10,000 feet and to say, this is my story, this is my narrative, I'm going to take the jump, I'm gonna take the risk, I'm going to leave and I'm gonna trust that it might take time, it might take some real deep soul searching and work, very, very intentional work, but I'm gonna get to the other side versus staying in a place that was not serving me and not serving others. Mm-hmm. And it feels, that's a really hard step to take when things feel comfortable and you know you're good at it. Like, as I made the leap to my own brand, and being, you know, a financial advisor under my own brand, I could have stuck it out and just coasted through. And it would have been easier. It would have been easier. Less growth. I love, love, love that I did this, but it's so hard to take that step when you're like, but I'm good at this. And I'm, you know, I'm comfortable here. And I can, you know, I have a family to support. I have responsibilities. I'm not 22 and running around the streets of San Francisco and have really like, and I look back at those days and I thought I had problems, you know, I mean, it's all relative. It's all relative. They were real problems back then, Jessica, yes. But I feel like it's like, you know, it is very, very hard and I sit in this spot right now and I say to you that it will be hard anytime you do it. But when you really sit with yourself and you say, what do I want this next chapter to look like? What do I want in my life? The tools that were serving me two years ago are not the tools that are serving me now. And we change and evolve every single day as does the people around us, as does the org that we work for every day. Do you ever do that? By the way, do you ever talk to your younger self? I do go back and talk to my younger self quite a bit. But it's in the form of like my 19 and 21 year old. No, fair, fair. Myself included. But somebody said that to me the other day, they were like, you know, when you talk to yourself and we all get down on ourselves, like talk to yourself the way you would talk to six year old Jessica. And I was like, wow, that is like, it was so mind blowing for me. It was such a beautiful, just like warm hug where you're like, yeah, like how did we change that? Like where do we along the way decide that beating ourselves up is the way to talk to ourselves? You know? Yeah, it's not motivating and it's not nice. Be nice. I know. Just be nice. Just be kind. Yeah. Absolutely. What about if you could go back and high five yourself for a really great past financial decision? What would that be? Oh, God. Okay. I loved these questions. If I could five myself for a great financial decision, it would be showing up for myself in negotiations. Okay. It's really hard. I feel like my whole world is negotiating for our clients and negotiating for whatever brand or company that I have worked for, but negotiating for yourself. And I remember I had a boss and I was stumbling my way through asking for a raise and I was doing a really horrible job and he stopped me and he said, "What do you want?" And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Just say what you want. No one is going to say it for you." And the worst answer that you could get is no. So ask for what you want. And it was interesting in that moment because it was really beautiful the way he did it because we were zoning in on what it was, but he's like, "Just say it." That was I think the first step for me in terms of really approaching my own brand and approaching my own negotiation, the same way that I do with clients, partners, brand development, executions. And it's hard. It is really, really hard. It's really hard to come to the table and say, "This is why I'm so amazing and this is why I deserve X, Y and Z." Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because we're taught to be just a little bit like, "Oh, that's braggie. Don't be too braggie." I'm so sorry for asking, but, you know, I would say that the other most responsible thing I've ever done and if my dad is listening to this, he will be very excited to hear it. I have maxed out my 401k every single year. Yes. He's like, "Jesica, if you're making $5, you're going to invest in whatever the $25 senses in 401k." And so he is always sitting on my shoulder to invest in 401k. Mm-hmm. Yeah. From the time you were little, I love that. As my kind of dad and a hellelujah, God bless the dads. It was so sweet. But I love what you said about negotiating for yourself. And, you know, as a financial advisor, I work with women all the time who have kind of undervalued, they haven't negotiated for themselves. And if you start out at a lower level and you don't negotiate for what you're worth at every step of the way, like you steadily get further and further behind. And that pay gap gets wider and wider. And then you end up in a different place than you would have if you just, I coach, I coach every single one of the people that I mentor, including my own, you know, like my daughter and laws and my own assistance. I'm like, you need to come to the table with, you know, comps for someone who is doing your job. You need to stay abreast of what sort of salary you should be getting and you need to ask for it. You need to ask for it. It's like, it's such powerful advice and powerful feedback. Because somewhere along the line, I think most women are trained that you don't want to ask for too much. You don't want to be looked at as that kind of woman. And, you know, I do believe that things are a heck of a lot different than they were when you and I were growing up. But we still have so, so, such a long, long journey to go until a woman really feels like I think that deep level of confidence that builds generationally in terms of, yes, this is who I am, this is my work, this is what I deserve, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And helping and mentoring, I love that we get the opportunity to kind of mentor those that are coming in, whether, you know, younger people in our organizations or I love that we get to help them with the things that we wish we had known. Oh, I do too. It's so funny. I was mentoring this woman last week who's getting ready to graduate from college. And as we were hanging up, I said, you know, if I could go back in time, it would be to where you are right now. You're graduating. You have the world at your feet. The world at your feet to do whatever it is that you want to do. And you have this incredible education with an MBA right out of college. And, you know, what I, my advice to you would be to really contemplate where it is that you want to go and what you want to do. And I'll take the first offer that is presented to you. Really take your time and your diligence. And I'm right here next to you. If you want my advice and you want my take on these, and she was so cute and just so full of life. And again, it's like, I don't know if I'm in the stage of life right now too, where I'm just like feeling very nostalgic at the same time that I'm feeling very forward thinking. But I'm also really grateful that I have the opportunity to do this because I didn't have a lorry in my life. My mentors that I looked to were in very different shapes and containers, right? My dad has always been a mentor for me and my career. And I would say that my first boss when I moved out to San Francisco, well, my name is Andy, has been instrumental in really changing the trajectory of who I thought I was and what my career could look like. And I feel very grateful for that. And that is why I just want this woman to have five of me. I want her to just be surrounded with people that are like, you can do this. This is why you can do this. And again, going back to, don't always look at your obstacles as being the things that hold you back. It's really like, root yourself in action. And I will also go back to being human. Those things are really hard to find. Some days you're like, I just want to come for a day. Yes. I just want a heated blanket and darkness, right? And no screaming children. Oh, yeah. Five minutes to yourself. Just five minutes. Oh, there's such a great book. There was a, when I was at Timing, there was an editor of Real Simple. And she wrote a book and it was called, just let me lie down. And I remember just reading it. And I'm so embarrassed. I can't remember her name. But it was such a great book because it was, it was so rooted in like, just give me five minutes, right? Just rest. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Jessica, what scared you the most when you kind of started it? You talked about being a little bit fearless. And we all have, I do think we have a little bit of vatiness as we're young, but was there anything that kind of scared you and that does it still? Or did you learn how to deal with it? Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think I'm scared every day. And I think that it's, I think that there's a, there's a level of fear that's really healthy and positive in all of our lives. I think that the thing that scared me the most was consistently finding success, right? I feel like there was like, we go through life and we walk up like stairs and you're in the midst of your stair and you're like, kind of what we were talking about a couple of minutes ago. Like I'm really comfortable here. Like I like this stair. Yeah. like this. I can see these things from this stare. I can do these things from this stare. And you're constantly, especially for high achievers, you're constantly pushed to move up to the next stare. And when you're climbing up to that stare, it's really scary. And I think that for me, as much as I believe in myself, it's also riddled with, can I do it? Okay, yes, you can do it. You can do it. Oh, can I do it? You know, so I think that that's like the humanity of what I would probably call what most people call the imposter syndrome, right? Am I the person that is empowered to make this decision? Yes, and this is why. And I remember walking into a job many moons ago where I was for the first time managing people. And I hated the word managing. I just, I still to this day, just hate, it's just like either this or a reaction to it. And I remember talking to my leader at the time and saying, oh, gosh, I didn't, I didn't realize this was part of the job, you know? And she's like, listen, I promise you that leading is going to change your life. And if we regroup in a year and you tell me, oh, this is not for me, I will be absolutely shocked, but I will hear you and I will listen to you and we can make changes. Well, that really truly was an inflection point for me. Because what I realize is I probably screwed a lot of things up that first year. And we should go and talk to some of those people. But I also realized that leadership is so much more than checking the box on a daily basis. Leadership is really, am I empowering these people to show up at whatever this proverbial job is every day and do they feel stronger, do they feel more confident, do they feel safer when I'm behind them at their backs saying, let's go, let's do this, let's road to the shore because we're doing this together, right? And so I think that my fear has always come from stepping into something new that I don't feel like I've got a full grasp in terms of every single perfect way to do that. Every single perfect way to do that. I grew up a gymnast and you would never know by my height on 5/11 I know we're sitting down, but I'm 5/11 and I grew an entire foot when I was between 15 and 16 years old. Growing up a gymnast and literally being a competitive gymnast in which you were practicing upwards of 5 hours a day, everything had to be perfect for you, right? And so that carries me now is like, OK, I'm stepping into this. I do not know how to do it perfectly yet. I am not in a position to get a 10. And I need to find every single way that I can find that perfect 10. I realize that's what life is. That's the messiness of life, right? The messy middle, right? That's a stage that messy middle where you're growing. You're not perfect. And it's really hard to step to deliberately step into that space to deliberately choose to go towards something that you're not quite good at yet. And to take that first, the first fearless step, right? And not to be running away from anything, running toward. And I love that word deliberate, like running toward the next big thing in your life, right? So what were some of the things that you used to when you were in that messy middle part, that really scary part where they're, you're like, I'm not-- you know you're not going to do it perfectly. What tricks, what tips, what did you do? Breath. OK. Own breath. Asking for help. Asking for help. It's really hard to do. It's hard for me to do now. It's going to be hard for me to do probably my whole life, but to ask questions and to really listen to the answers, right? Because I think that a lot of times, especially when you're going into a new situation. And I'll use my-- like when I left my advertising chops for that two years of time, like I had asked so many questions. I look back at the notebooks that I used when I started at that job. And they were-- oh my gosh, I think I had like five volumes of like, I had to learn this whole new SaaS-based software platform, right? And that was not in any shape or form of my DNA. And also to give myself grace. And I think that that's really hard as individuals. Again, I go back to high achieving people who want to know everything now. And to say, Jessica, the adage is right. Rome wasn't built in a day. And nobody expects you to have all the answers on day one. What they do expect you is to critically think and to really utilize the tools that you've got. And sometimes those tools are questions. But I always go back to breath because I'm like, oh, like sometimes, honestly, 10 deep breaths in and out is all I need to kind of reset my nervous system and remind myself of why I'm there in that proverbial spot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do some of those too. I do deep breaths. I do a nice self-talk. Like, there's a reason you're doing this. Think of the things you've accomplished. You do have to remind yourself you have to talk nice to yourself. Yes. I know it's so important. And I feel like we feed ourselves out. So it's almost like when you feed yourself vegetables, you feel better. When you feed yourself really kind, the loving words, you feel better. And those are the things that you start to believe about yourself. And I feel like the power of that, the power of our perception, the power of how we show up with that confidence every single day, is contagious. What about along your path? Did you face any unique challenges because you were a woman? Yes. And I feel like there have been a couple of different instances where I was overlooked because of my gender wasn't taken seriously, because of my gender, having children is also something that I think really, truly, whether or not people want to admit it or not, it is something that they look at you differently, and make assumptions about who you are and how you're conducting yourself. I will say-- and maybe I don't want to sound like Pollyanna positive when I say this-- but I will say that those opportunities that I was looked over for, the way that I was treated in certain situations, all were really beautiful lessons for me and learning points for me. There were a couple of moments earlier in my career where they were painful from the standpoint that I was evolving as a human and a young woman. And I didn't realize that men can be-- especially in that time-- I think that we've gone through such a reset in society in terms of women not being looked at as objects as much as they used to, but walking out of meetings and just feeling like, "Yucky for a lack of a better term?" In terms of the way that you were being perceived, right? I think that women, when we show up in the workplace, we want to be taken seriously. We want to be taken seriously for what we're saying and what we're doing and maybe not necessarily always about the way we look. And so that was painful, but I will say-- I will say, again, at the end, I'm very grateful for all of those moments because they also allow me to talk really candidly to the women that I'm mentoring about, and I can actually share my own situations, thoughts, feelings, experiences to say, "I went through this. This is how I handled it." And this is what I think that you should do as a wonderful young professional growing up in this world. And I wish that it was different. I do. I think we've talked about that a couple of times in our time today, but perseverance, I think, is really, really necessary in terms of-- that quote, "The days are long and the years are short." Like, you really feel that in those moments where you're like, "Why isn't my idea resonating? Why did I say something in terms of whatever it is in a meeting?" It was completely disregarded, and the man says it two seconds later, and they're like, "Brilliant point." And you're like, "What?" "Why does that happen?" How did that happen? Yeah. And I think that that's probably why the last couple of experiences that I've had, I've been really been looking for more of a female driven experience, more of a female driven opportunity. So-- Yeah, that's interesting. I think that we do run into-- we just run into unique challenges, and having kids is one of them, and the perception of how we should act as another. And I think that your point about you talk to your mentees about these things and kind of explain how you dealt with it. I think that will change things. Things are changing anyway, but that will allow them to say, "Okay, this is the way I dealt with it. You might choose to do it differently." Or that didn't work really well for me. You might try a different method, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's what life is, right? It's a series of beautiful opportunities and mistakes that make us who we are, showing up, and trying to do our best every single day. What is the thing you are most proud of Jessica? I am most proud of the fact that I have three beautiful children, and they are-- They teach me so much about life every single day. And I think that there is something so beautiful about children and the way that they are, they are what I think reminds us of what being fearless really is. Showing up with authenticity, showing up with honesty, showing up with questions and not being embarrassed to ask them and showing up with hearts full of love. And my journey to becoming a mom was not what I expected it to be, but I believe that every children finds their parents and I'm so glad that mine found me because they make me a better person outside of being a mother every single day. I think that's, that is true. You know, a lot of times I'll look at my actions and I'll be like, "What I want my daughter to emulate this." Like what I want my son to, to, what would he be proud of what I'm doing right now? Yes. Yeah. And what a different person. It's so funny. My mom worked so hard. My mom was a stay at home mom. She laid the most gorgeous foundation for me being someone who is vocal, who stands up for themselves, who has a voice. She started her own career like literally 15 years ago. She's always been a seamstress by trade. And after she raised us all and we left the house, she really leaned in on that and she has her own business now. And it's really funny to see beautiful, I should say, to see her blooming so late in her own life building this business and building this career. And I think about modeling that for my own children. It's such a different model than what I had growing up, but I want my daughter to look at that and to say, "I can do whatever I want to do and whatever capacity is that I do it." And boys to also say, "Hey listen, like women come in all shapes, sizes, and containers. And this is like, I'm modeling what it is like to really follow your dreams." Like not just saying that you're following your dreams, you're following them. I think that kids, well we expect our kids to show up every single day and reach for the stars. They're looking to see what we do. They're looking to see how we present ourselves to the world. And then we model that for them, right? Yeah, I love that. One of my daughters, one time we were just sitting around chatting and she said something along the lines of, "Well I have really strong female females in my life, examples of really strong females." And she went through my mother-in-law and my mother and me and some of her aunts and stuff like that. It made me really reflect on the fact that they're watching, they're watching what we're doing. And I think that those that we're mentoring are watching what we're doing. And looking at those women's examples in their lives too. So I think that's really important. It must have warmed your heart so much. It's like, "Okay, I did something right today." You're moving up to me for what I'm doing. That's so beautiful. It's so surprising. You're such an authentic and articulate and smart woman. That's the best feeling in the world. I'm making a wish. But I do think there are such good examples of strong women all over. And I love that our daughters and those young ladies in our lives have those examples. And we take that responsibility seriously. Oh, yeah. So seriously. I think I should grave role that I feel like I play, you know? And it's the most beautiful privilege. It really is. And I think it allows me to be a better leader to be honest with you too. I think you have a different sense of understanding. And you realize that nobody is showing up every single day saying, "Gosh, I can't wait to mess up today." I know. I'm only showing up and saying, "I'm going to do my best and I'm hoping that if I do mess up, I learn from it." Mm-hmm. Any advice for a young lady who's kind of just starting down this path that you're successful at that would help her turn up where you are one day? Yes. Two pieces of advice that have helped me tremendously. And I hope that they don't sound cliche, but I'm going to say them anyway and I'll give you a little bit of context. Number one is take the meeting. Take the meeting all day every day, especially when you're young and especially when you're starting out, even if you think, "Oh gosh, meeting with JJ, she's in media and marketing and advertising and sponsorships." Like, "I don't necessarily know that I want to do that." You never know. You never know if the person that you are going to meet with, who they can connect you with and open up your world. And the other thing I would say is to follow the process because the process can be really, really wonky sometimes. And the process is not linear. And it includes a lot of dips and turns and bobs and weaves. But if you really follow it and you trust in yourself, then the best things are bound to happen. Patience is such a virtue on that journey and in that process too. And I've learned that more ways than I even can share with you in this podcast. But those are the two things that follow me every single day. And sometimes that process is slow and steady and sometimes it's quick and it's unexpected. But it's a beautiful journey, regardless. Sometimes it feels ugly, but for those who are really beautiful. Yeah, the messy middle is hard sometimes. We're not going to lie, right? The middle is like a crack-deg on the floor that you're trying to clean up at the same time that like, you know, everything else is blowing up, fire alarms are going off. You pull yourself together at the end of it and you're like, "All right. You know, have you ever heard of that theory, the burnt toast theory, Lori?" No, tell me. Okay, so the burnt toast theory is, you know, you're getting ready for your day. You've got a big day ahead of you and your toast burns and you're now delayed like five to ten minutes on everything you do in the day. And you realize that the burnt toast was actually saving you from X, Y, and Z that was going to happen in your day. And so that for me recently has been something that I've really leaned in on, especially when I know you can relate to this. You're basically running like a grand central station in your house every day and you're like, there's always going to be the unexpected. So maybe those unexpected are really, truly there for a bigger reason than delaying you five minutes to the next piece of your day. Yeah, yeah. I love that thought and that theory because I do end up in sometimes you'll look back and you'll be like, thank goodness I had that time or that moment or that hardship or that, you know, burnt toast. Thank you. I know. I know. Thank you. I know. I know. Thank you. I know. Thank you. I know. Thank you. deals cloudy. And if you really just stick with it and stick with your process and stick with your own belief, it will come around. It's just not always on the timeline that we want it to be, right? Yeah. Well, Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I have really appreciated our conversation, and I love to hear about your journey. If I have a young lady who wants to ask you questions, how does she get in touch with you? Oh, I love this. Okay. Well, she can get in touch with me any way she wants. I can give you my email address. I'm also very happy to give you my cell phone numbers, especially for these tennis situations. And I can also provide my LinkedIn. Any, any, I, they're my favorite things to do. My line is always open. And I'm also Gen X. So like, you can still call me on my cell phone and I'll pick up. I know, I didn't know that was a thing, but that is huh? I know. A friend of mine, a client called me a day and he goes, I just went for it. We're both Gen X's and we pick up the phone. I'm like, I know. I have to be like, hi, I'm texting you. Are you here? Are you here in five minutes? Yes. Oh, that's so funny. Well, thank you so, so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Laurie. It was the best highlight of my day. [BLANK_AUDIO]