Thrive Causemetics: Karissa Bodnar. How a Beauty Business Made Millions for a Mission

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You become an employee. I got to work in every store in Washington state. Wow. All right. So, Carissa, you go to community college after you graduate high school. Then you go on to University of Washington. Yeah. And you go work at a Sephora as a makeup artist. That's your job to make money while you're in college. And I'm assuming you're getting better at it every day. And working at Nordstrom at the same time. So I was working Nordstrom and Sephora at the same time. Doing makeup at Nordstrom as well? No, I got rejected, actually. I applied for all the beauty counters and I didn't have the skill set that they were looking for. And so Sephora, we were the underdog at the time when I started working there. And those people raised me. I mean, that was really my education in beauty. Yeah. And did you like, so people, somebody would walk into Sephora and you could offer up any different kinds of brands and you would sort of apply the makeup to them and, and maybe they would buy that brand. Yeah. Yeah. And so we got trained on every single brand and it was so fun. Every single day we were doing a mini training. And what I thought that was also so brilliant was they had different certifications that you could get. And so I was constantly having this reinforcement of when I learn, when I demonstrate, when I can show proficiency, I get a certification in a new level of artistry or, or on skincare and fragrance and hair care. And so I have so much gratitude for Sephora and what they taught me. All right. So you are, and you're studying marketing, communications, all those things that are going to be useful for you. And you, you graduate. By the skin of my teeth, I graduated. Yeah. I got my, I got my dream job about six months before I got my dream job at Clarisonic doing. What was Clarisonic? Oh my gosh. Clarisonic, was the Sonicare for your face. It was, they, they pioneered the evolution and cleansing and. It was a cleaning brush for your face, like a wet brush. Yeah. So it's like, it vibrates right under, I guess, in your pulses on your face. It oscillates and, and it, it cleanses six times better than your hands alone. So I think a lot of listeners would know what a Sonicare is, right. And how, how much more effective that is at cleansing your teeth than a traditional toothbrush that doesn't have, you know, the electric toothbrush behind it. And the same founders, the same, same five founders who created Sonicare then went and created Clarisonic. Wow. In Seattle, based in Seattle? Actually, specifically in Factoria, Washington. And Guy, the reason why this matters is because when I was going to community college, I was living on Richards Road. Guess what was across the street from me that I had no idea? Clarisonic. Wow. So they had like, a little office there and these guys were- And manufacturing. We did manufacturing and we did formulation. We did our own formulations. And so had I known that Clarisonic was across the street from my apartment, I would have quit school. I would, I wouldn't have, I would not have gone to school. I would not have graduated because that, being able to do product development was my dream. And there were so few beauty brands in Seattle. And I, while I was working at Sephora, I was selling Clarisonics like crazy. And the brand ultimately, sold to L'Oreal while I was working there. Like within the first year of you working there, I think, right? Yeah. Something like that. And it's actually no longer in business. L'Oreal shut down the brand a few years ago, but it was really revolutionary at the time. You were there for less than a year and it's acquired by L'Oreal, but you stay on as an employee of L'Oreal. Yeah. And when they, I didn't know what acquisition meant when they bought us and I met Carol Hamilton. And- And she was like, this is going to be really amazing for you. Who is, who is Carol Hamilton? She at the time was the president of L'Oreal Lux, which was the luxury division. And she really put that partnership together. And I, I don't know how I got so lucky to be in the room with her, but she saw something in me and decided to take me to Paris. So Carol put me on so many projects, like the, they wanted to take Clarisonic and, you know, put them into Yves Saint Laurent, Lancome. And so I got to work with the chemists as well as the engineers to be creating these different devices that were specific to many luxury brands, which I couldn't believe because it was just a few years before that, that I was saving up multiple paychecks to be able to afford those products in my life. So it was, it was pretty surreal to be in Paris working on those things and then flying out to New York. And, but you, you were still based in Washington and outside of Seattle or in Seattle? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So you're, so she kind of takes you under her wing. I mean, you were 22, 23 years old. Yeah. What, what do you think you brought or that you sort of, I don't know, conveyed in, in just you, in being you at the time that got you a mentor like that? She's really special. Like she does this for so many people. And, I believe that it was my passion. I was sharing my ideas. I hadn't been conditioned in a corporate setting to not speak my mind. And I just was all about the brand and the products and, and it, it didn't feel like work to me. I was always the one that was asking to be in the meeting. I was taking notes. I was bringing people coffee. I didn't care what the role was. I mean, there were many of my jobs where I was flying just to bring samples. And I was, I was, I was, I was, I was to somebody. And, and I loved it. You know, it was so cool. I couldn't believe that I was getting to do that. So I would say when, when I look back on it, I think it was the, really the work ethic and the passion. Yeah. All right. So it's 2013 and you, something is going to happen in your life that will change the course of your life and career. And, and it's a friend of yours, a woman named Christy Lamond. Yeah. Tell me, tell me who, who's Christy. What's the story? Yeah. I mean, I'll never forget it. I was in Paris at the time and Christy was such a special person while I was dreaming of, you know, going and, and, and working in the beauty industry and, and conquering that world. She, we, we both went to university of Washington together and she was that magnetic person that always, always made you know that your life mattered. It didn't matter who you were or where you were from. And, you know, I'm from a small town. I went to community college. There were a lot of reasons for me to feel like I didn't fit in, in this, you know, highly academic and really prestigious school in Washington, university of Washington. And Christy just always believed in me because she believed in everybody. And she really dedicated her life to philanthropy. She, after we graduated from university of Washington, decided to go work at the Tanzanian children's fund and teach English to young girls there in Tanzania. And then she had moved to Chile to do essentially the same thing. And she, I was in Paris. I was on a total high. I had been out there for a couple of weeks and was working L'Oreal's annual conference called Mondial. And I had had the most incredible evening. I was like, guy, I was like in a palace that night presenting to the CEO of all of L'Oreal. And she called me and I was just excited to get the update. Cause she had just gotten to Chile. And she said to me, you remember that bruise that I've had on my hip? And I said, yeah, what's up? And she said, well, they think I have cancer. And I was like, there's no way, you know, you're so healthy. You're so, you know, vibrant and full of life. And it was cancer. And, and nine months later, she passed away. She was just 24, 23, 24 years old. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I remember sitting there at her funeral and just, you know, being with her parents. And the only thing that gave me the most, you know, gave me solace was that she left no stone unturned. She had a blog called wake up and live. And she talked about dying successfully. And I think about that a lot every day. And this idea that it's a choice, how we show up every day and that our time is limited. And so we get to choose no matter what's going on in our life, how we're going to show up, how we're going to treat people. And that is the indelible Mark that Christie left on the world. back in just a moment. How Carissa's loss led her to abandon her career at L'Oreal and radically change her direction. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. One thing I've learned from talking to hundreds of founders is that as a business grows, complexity can become a huge problem. Suddenly, you've got different systems for finance, inventory, customers, operations, and they don't always talk to each other. If I were building a company today, I'd want all of that in one place, with AI helping me make sense of it. And that's exactly what NetSuite Next is designed to do. You probably know NetSuite, the AI-powered business management suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth. NetSuite Next is the next huge leap in how business gets done, because AI is built into everything you do. AI agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work. 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Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai.h. When you run a small business, you have to wear a lot of hats. You're the hiring manager, the payroll department, and the benefits team, all wrapped into one. And after talking to hundreds of founders and running a business myself, I know how overwhelming wearing all these hats can be. Thankfully, Gusto is here to take a few of those necessary tasks off your plate so you can get back to the bigger picture. Gusto is online payroll and benefit software built for businesses. It's all-in-one, remote-friendly, and incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. Save time with built-in automated tools like offer letters, onboarding docs, direct deposit, and more. Plus, get direct access to certified HR experts to help support you through any tough HR situation. Try Gusto today at gusto.com. Three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash built. One more time, gusto.com slash built. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2013, and Christy's death has Carissa reassessing her own life and her own career goals. She realizes that she's not the only one who's She realizes she wants purpose to be part of her professional life and decides that in order to do that, she has to leave L'Oreal. I had always loved how beauty made people feel, and I loved my job at L'Oreal, but there was no job for me to go get that was giving back in the way that Christy had done. I had always loved my life and her life and the legacy that she left. And so it was about a month after she passed away, I was down in Los Angeles for a L'Oreal trip. And I woke up in the middle of the night and thought of how Tom's had built this engine for giving back the shoe company. This is 2013. Yeah. And I thought about how in the beauty industry, we had the budget to be giving back in such a more meaningful way. And I also thought about my experience volunteering as a makeup artist with Look Good Feel Better, which is an organization that provides makeup classes to women going through cancer. And I thought about that experience of how women who had lost their natural lashes did not have a solution. And I thought about how women who had lost their natural lashes did not have a solution. You couldn't wear mascara because you didn't have anything for the mascara to stick onto. And you couldn't use traditional fake lashes because one, the glues were too toxic. They were filled with latex and parabens and sulfates, which were really irritating to people who are immune compromised or just people in general. And the lashes wouldn't stay on. And I also thought about Christy's experience with losing her own hair and how important it was that she felt like herself and that she had that dignity of beauty until her last day. And I wanted to be able to create a solution for that. I had no desire to start a beauty brand. I, I remember being a makeup artist and so many makeup artists at Sephora wanted to start their own brand. And I was like, oh my gosh, no, there's like so many incredible ones here. Why would, why would anyone ever start one? And so for me, it was more of Christy's passing was this catalyst for me saying, I love this industry. I love what I get to do every day. And I also have this bigger calling to honor her life. And, and I want to solve this problem for people around false lashes that don't work if you don't have your natural lashes. Okay. So you, you decide that you want to start something and you know, you want to do something inspired by Tom's. We, we did that episode many years ago on the show with Blake Mycoskie is really interesting story. And that was, I mean, that was sort of the kind of a moment in time where you had a lot of people that were like, oh, I want to do something. And a lot of brands, Warby Parker and others starting up that were doing one for one, which was a really, it was a thing. So from what I understand, you, you decide to quit outright, quit at L'Oreal and start this company. I'm assuming because you didn't, you can't really start a makeup brand working inside of a makeup company because they are going to own that IP. Yes. And I, I got another job before I quit. My, my dad, it's very important that you're gainfully employed. And I, I had about a hundred thousand dollars of life savings that I put into starting Thrive Cosmetics. Uh, but I also worked a full-time job, but in a different category, which was the nutrition and coffee industry, which I had no business doing. It was Bulletproof. I read that you worked for the Bulletproof coffee company. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you, um, meantime, you said you're making formulations. What are you, what are you actually doing? What are you making? The first product that I was making were these false lashes that worked, whether you had lashes or not. And, and we still, I mean, they're a huge part of our business. But how would you make that? I mean, I would think you just order those ready-made. No, no. Um, because the traditional lash bands didn't work on people who had, had lost their lashes. They, it needed that flexibility as well as a curve to it, to really affix. Because if you think about your eye, eyelid and where your natural lash line is, if you're putting on false lashes, you, you have this shelf of your natural lashes that are going to ultimately, you know, keep the lashes up. And so, because that didn't exist for people who had lost their lashes, I worked with ophthalmologists. I also worked with oncologists and, and because of my background at Clarisonic, I had filament suppliers, which are essentially, you know, what false lashes are made out of that were really generous with their time and allowed me to source fibers from all over the world that were really lightweight. And, and then the, the product that was also very important to pair with those lashes was infinity waterproof lash adhesive. And that lash adhesive or lash glue couldn't have latex or parabens because I was working with oncologists to develop the products and ophthalmologists. And they were like people who are going through cancer or have any immune compromise situation absolutely cannot have latex on their skin. They cannot have parabens. So I made that formula, with in my Vitamix, I got a ton of raw materials from raw material suppliers that I, that I knew from working in cosmetic chemistry. And I mean, they were literally sending me hyaluronic acid powder to my, my, you know, to three 33rd Avenue West in Seattle. And, and, and I got an acrylic copolymer that I could blend and whip with at a certain frequency and speed with the water. And it ultimately became what was infinity waterproof lash adhesive. How long did it take before you had something that worked? Three years. Wow. Okay. So, but meantime, you're still working for Bulletproof at this time when you're, when you're developing and, and, and did you have a name for your, your company yet? I, when I was working on the lashes, I did not know. I, I really struggled to come up with a name and I was working on the formulations in my kitchen and I had a TV and I would watch Good Morning America every morning, like so many people. And basically, um, they were, they were doing Good Morning America goes pink, which was all about breast cancer awareness. And they were doing makeup on breast cancer survivors. And Robin corrected the host and said, these women are not just survivors, they're thrivers. And my eyes welled up with tears. And I just knew that that was the name. Because that's what beauty is all about, is about helping people thrive. So it just struck me that that was what we were going to be named. All right. So I think, I think this is around 2015, you, you quit Bulletproof Coffee and formally launch Thrive Cosmetics. And you had already kind of built a community, right? Working with cancer patients and, and, and some nonprofits. Um, but I, I think at this point sales are, entirely direct to consumer online, right? And, and by word of mouth, essentially, is that right? Yes. I would have given you my left arm and I am left-handed to be carried at Sephora, Nordstrom, Ulta, Anthropologie. I mean, I was, I was pitching to everybody, QVC. And I just think at the time they, they didn't really see the vision of, of what I was creating. And you pitched them on these, on the lashes. Yeah. And, and then what would become Infinity Waterproof Eyeliner, an Infinity Waterproof, uh, eyebrow liner and Triple Threat Color Stick, which it's, it's funny. This is a really full circle moment because when I was, I remember working on Triple Threat Color Stick in my kitchen when I was listening to you and Jane from Dermalogica in 2016. Yeah. I'm, I'm curious. So how did you fund the initial run of like, you know, you've got a website and you had some savings, I think, from your jobs. Yeah. And you had to manufacture these lash and then hopefully sell them. Yeah. How did you finance that initially? Well, I, so I had about a hundred thousand dollars and, and the initial production I invested, it was, you know, $20,000, let's say. Yeah. And, and then it was, you know, Infinity Waterproof Eyeliner. When I wanted to produce that, I took some of the proceeds from selling the lashes, which again, there were many days where we had no sales. Having an $150 revenue day, I felt like an absolute baller. And so I was, I was funding the production through working my full-time job as well as my life savings. And I, and I wiped out my entire life savings. And, you know, I had a 2007 Honda Civic and a one-bedroom apartment, so there wasn't much to leverage. So I, I, yeah, it was, it was, it was by working that job that really funded the inventory and the company. So, all right. What, what was your kind of strategic thinking about even getting the word out about it? So I, I love this, this quote, scarcity drives focus. And my scarcity was capital. My scarcity was time. And so for me, it was like, okay, well, I know, I know Elena George at Good Morning America has an Instagram. Could I DM her? Could, who, who do I know that could help me get in touch with her? And I just built a relationship telling her what my mission was. But for every Elena George, there were 30, 40 people who never responded. Same thing with beauty editors, April Franzino at Good Housekeeping. I had LinkedIn messaged over 20 editors and she was the only one who responded. And even when she did respond, it took six months to get a meeting with her. And then I believe it was July of 2015 when our first print article came out and it was a tiny little feature in Good Housekeeping. But again, it's about, to me, I think it's about playing the long game and it's one person at a time because you never know who can change your life. If you keep showing up and treating everybody with the same passion and purpose and really communicating that consistently, I, I do believe that your people will find you. Yeah. Tell me about the first hires. Who, who were they and who were you looking for? The first department that we built out was customer service. It was, um, because the, the business went from zero to 30 million in a matter of months when the business finally took off in November of 2016 before Black Friday. And it was really our customers making us go viral. I had made an ad on my iPhone talking about infinity waterproof eyeliner. And then little by little, those customers started commenting. And I remember calling my sister and saying, Oh my gosh, we're going to do. $25,000 in sales this day. And then I remember calling her the next day and saying, Oh my gosh, we're going to do $25,000. And within seven days, it was a hundred thousand dollars. We had no employees. And so my friends, I mean, my friend, Megan, who's a dental hygienist would come after work and she would do customer service. My sister would take a lunch break and do customer service. My mom, I mean, it was everybody in my life was showing up. And then so the, to get back to the first employees, it was people from Christie's sorority at university of Washington. And they had never met Christie. They were five years younger than us, but they knew they knew about thrive and they knew about our mission. And it was students at DECA, which is a marketing organization, extracurricular activity, um, program. And it was the Renton, Washington DECA students that showed up or the future business leaders of America, students that showed up and would box eyeliners into cartons, or they would ship products. And we made a lot of mistakes. I remember there was, there were times where we would accidentally in ship station, double print the labels and my aunts and uncles and friends and family would be there until, you know, midnight doing order fulfillment. And we had double shipped people. We had customers calling us being like, Hey, I want to let you know, like you double shipped me. Um, so there were a lot of ups and downs in that time, but, um, we cared deeply and that's really what, what built the business. So, um, you, I think you introduced the mascara in 2017. Yeah. And as you are growing, right. Are you starting to think about moving the business? Cause you're now based in LA, but at that time, did you start to think I should probably move it to a media center like LA or New York where, you know, there is a lot more attention and celebrities live and et cetera, et cetera. Yes. So May of 2017 was when liquid lash extensions, mascara launched and we sold out within 48 hours and that was absolute bananas. And so, yeah, it was, it was getting really tough to do order fulfillment out of a 2,300 square foot office in Seattle. And it was getting really tough to find cosmetic chemists. So after we built the customer service department, I wanted to build out our cosmetic chemistry expertise. And, you know, there, there aren't places where you can go really learn that in, in Washington state. And so I, I didn't have this grand plan of, of moving to Playa Vista, which is right, you know, in Los Angeles. I, I just, I thought, okay, well it's probably New York or LA. And so I made a job description for cosmetic chemistry and I said, it could be in LA or New York. I mean, I, I, all I had was an apartment in a 2007 Honda civic and my dog Cody that time in my life, I had total freedom to, to go anywhere. And I was so committed to this mission. And, and the first person that I hired was in Los Angeles. And so got a Regis temporary office down in Los Angeles. My family helped pack up the apartment and, you know, got down to Los Angeles. All right. So you eventually do move the team down there. I want to ask you about fundraising because I know you would raise money, but tell me a little bit about some of the challenges you ran into as you were trying to raise money. I mean, this was a good time to raise money, 2016, 17, because especially direct-to-consumer, there was increasing interest in it. Did you run into some challenges trying to raise money? I spent a lot of time in 2013, 2014, 2015, trying to raise money and was very unsuccessful in it. And so the business was already very profitable and it was over $30 million in revenue before I was able to get capital. And we needed a few hundred thousand dollars for inventory. And when I did actually bring on capital, I had a different negotiation, as they would say. And I wrote the term sheet myself with a lawyer and I was able to protect my ownership in the business. I own the majority of the company. I control the company. Nobody can tell me if we're going to sell the company. And for me in particular, I always tell entrepreneurs, raise less because it's going to allow you to keep that scarcity-driving focus mindset. And every business is different. But I don't think in the beauty industry that you need that much money in order to make it because we, you know, I think launching with an entire line of products wouldn't have worked for me. I needed to formulate every single product to make sure that we had that level of excellence. And so had I had all the capital in the world, I think I would have lost that focus. And, you know, we were always profitable. Even when we did $78,000 in October of 2016, before the business took off. You were profitable because you kept, you stayed lean, you kept a small team? Well, we didn't have any employees at the time and I wasn't, I wasn't on payroll for many years. And so it was, I mean, the profitability, you know, somewhat, somewhat due to the fact that nobody was getting paid, but yeah, again, it was just building that really simple spreadsheet of saying, okay, if I sell a product for $26, how much am I going to keep? And then how much can that fund in the business? And when, you know, when you're running a business out of an apartment, you don't have that same overhead. So I just had to worry about making my own personal rent. And so I, again, I like, I will, even as I invest, if somebody, does their own order fulfillment, I will pretty much write them a blank check because I'm like, I know that grit and I know that discipline that it takes to do that and to walk past that inventory in your living room every day and see that it's not moving. It's deeply motivating. Infinity Waterproof Eyeliner, which is ultimately what built the business into a $30 million business, that didn't take off for a year and a half. And so I had to walk, it was like the walk of shame every day, looking at that inventory. And again, I think that that reminder of like, you invested, Carissa, you invested $25,000 to make Infinity Waterproof Eyeliner go into production of your personal money that you've been building since you were, you know, 16 years old. It was really motivating. When we come back in just a moment, how Carissa balances giving back with the realities of running a company and why her decision to keep sales only online works out differently. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This. We're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska. And in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona. Being a serious business owner takes hard work, patience, and a drive to keep moving forward. So it's important to find a serious business card that goes the extra mile. With the Venture X Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with big purchasing power. You can spend more and earn more. This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One Venture X Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details. I'm Guy Raz. So by 2020, Thrive Cosmetics is making about $150 million. The company is working with several hundred charities. And that mission becomes central to company culture and supporting its growth. People have always asked me, is it the mission or is it the product? And I said, product. It has to be the product. And our mission is inextricably linked to that because there are thousands of ingredients we will never use because we know we're donating to cancer patients. You know, so there's, and that's, you know, that's one of our causes. So they're intertwined. It's like, it's interconnected. The products are not using certain ingredients, which may appeal to lots of customers because they want, you know, I hate the term clean. And I know a lot of people use it. It just doesn't mean anything. But let's just say there are, you know, ingredients that people trust more than others. So that might appeal to them. And you do that because it's tied to your social mission, essentially. Well, I think our social mission is a lot bigger than the causes that we support. Again, our customers have chosen all of those charities. And so, you know, my vision was to give back. I gave back to a woman going through cancer. And then one person asked me if we would give to domestic violence. Then I met Shirley Raines from Beauty to the Streets. And we, you know, started giving back to the homeless. So, I mean, it has really grown through the community. And it 100% drives customer retention. They're voting on our charities. You know, they're getting to choose. But is that why they're coming to us? No. No, no. They're not coming to us because of that. They're coming to us because Liquid Lash Extensions is Allure's best of beauty. Winner. You know, which is essentially like winning a Grammy in the beauty industry. And so, if the formulation and the product is not delivering a solution to customers, then, yeah, you're dead in the water. Because if people want to give back, they'll just write a check, you know, to their local charity. But with Thrive Cosmetics, you actually get to do both, which is really special. Carissa, I'm curious about D2C because you don't have any brick-and-mortar stores. So, your expenses are a lot lower. But there's just so much more competition today, right? And the economy is where it is now. There are challenges. So, how do you think about making sure that you guys are going to thrive? I think the beauty of direct-to-consumer is that you know exactly where you stand every single day. Yeah. And so, you know, for me, with direct-to-consumer, it's about really staying committed to the daily numbers, being in the numbers. Because there have been times where I have taken my eye off the ball. And, you know, then all of a sudden, our air shipping costs have gone, you know, through the roof. And so, I think also, I'm a part of a lot of different WhatsApp groups and texting groups where we are constantly talking about, okay, what's going on with Shopify? What's going on with Meta? What are you seeing on TikTok? And I've found that this entrepreneurial community that's beyond Los Angeles is super, super generous. I think it starts, though, with how we show up with our own generosity of information and wanting to see people thrive. So, how we thrive is because we are supported by so many people. And I'm inspired by my friends who are running, you know, a business that might not even have done a million dollars in revenue because it reminds me how scrappy we can be. And I don't think that that needs to go away as a business continues to scale. I read that you've got about 70-ish employees, which to me is very smart. If that's true, because the lean operations are generally, it's generally easier to hit profitability. Is that right? Do you keep your team as lean as possible? We do. Yeah. And I think, you know, it ebbs and flows, right? The world is constantly changing. And I think where we always overinvest is in customer service and product development, in, you know, making sure that the people who are connecting with the customers, whether it's marketing, the things that are really driving the business, we try to be well-staffed there. But for me, it's also about, you know, whether the employee base was 30 or 70. It's about how do we continue to know everybody's name? How do we stay on the same page? And by the way, we're a work in progress in that. Even when we had five employees, it's hard to stay on the same page when the world is constantly changing. And I imagine, like, there was a time when brands were really focusing, and some still do to some extent, on like, you know, being totally vertically integrated Where you own the production facilities and you and sometimes it makes sense, like if you're making gluten free something and you can only, you know, it can make sense. It's very, very expensive. Right. And in many cases, it makes a lot more sense to work with a co-manufacturer. I think that is probably the case for you. Right. And for a lot of cosmetics brands. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't think anybody needs to own their manufacturing facilities. I think what's most important is owning your formulations. There's two things. Ownership, which comes from creation. And so that's why we invest in cosmetic chemists. I mean, the cosmetic chemists that we have on staff, Guy, they could run a marathon while I'm still trying to run a 5K. I mean, I'm the worst product developer in this building. And I think I'm pretty good. I made liquid lash extensions, you know. And so I think. You know, it's about investing there. And then it's also about negotiating exclusivity. Because those two things protect the formulations and the integrity of that. And even so, you know, don't do it on a handshake. You need a contract. And then you need to reinforce that contract a lot. Because as the products, you know, start to take off, that is going to invite in competition. And I love competition because I think it keeps us sharp. And I stay really focused. I'm really focused on what does our customer want from us, knowing that there are probably thousands of brands that are out there being, you know, constantly developing new products. But I think that that is one of the most important things is to really, really own your formulations so that you can say with integrity that you can't get this anywhere else. Yeah. So what are your sort of the categories that are the most successful? And where are you seeing an interesting kind of trend, growth trend? Yeah, we, you know, it's interesting. We were just talking about this as a team and, and just the opportunity that we have in complexion and sun care and how excited we are about that. We've, we have incredible sunscreens and complexion products, but the world doesn't necessarily know that much about that for, for our business. The, the brand was really built product by product and every single product has had to fund the next one because this business is self-funded. This business is profitable. And it always has been because it had to be. And so by keeping that rigor, we, if we don't sell enough of empower shine, which is a lipstick that, that we developed for over many years, if we don't sell enough in power shine, we can't launch lasting mark lip stain that we really hope we can launch in a month. You know, it just doesn't work. And so for us, it's really important that we stay really rigorous, even with our skincare products. We developed that with dermatologists, oncologists, ophthalmologists, but we still are, are quite small relative to the rest of the business in, in skincare. When you think about, you know, the outcome here, I mean, would you be happy if you were acquired by a bigger company like Tatcha and other brands have been on the show? Is that something that, you know, down the road you imagine is, is going to be a good outcome for you? No, I, I don't want to sell the company and we've had opportunities to, I, um, to me, the outcome is continuing to show up and develop products that are changing people's lives. I grew up, you know, pretty humble beginnings. You know, my, my parents worked very hard to provide for us and I had a great childhood and now I have more money than I need. And so I get to give that away. And so for me, it's really about how do we leave the world? Better than how we found it every single day. And how do we build a sustainable business that can outlive us? And I believe that by keeping the company privately held, that that is the best way to do it and building from within and promoting people who maybe start out as a cosmetic chemistry intern and is now a product development manager. And someday, hopefully she, you know, is, is, is the running the whole thing, you know? So to me, that's really what the end game is, is, is continuing to do the same work every day. And then evolving, uh, how we do that work together. When you, I mean, when you think about where the brand is now, right. And, um, and, and how, when, where it started, right. Cause you're now officially 11 years in, but you've been working on it longer than that. Yeah. Um, how much of, of it do you, do, do you think has to do with the, you know, the work you put in and how much do you think has to do with luck and, and timing and being at the right place at the right time? Hmm. Oh, I think it's a blend of both. I, I love, I love the song moment for life. And I remember listening to it, uh, when the business finally took off and I was, it was, I was up till 2am printing labels from ship station and I was listening to that song and I had listened to it for years. It came out many years before 2016 when I was listening to it and it, it hit me differently because I heard her say, I want this moment for life. And, and it was that feeling of like, oh my gosh. We actually are going to do this. Like it's actually happening. I'm breathing rarefied air. So there is luck in that. But in that song, Nikki also says, no, I'm not lucky. I'm blessed. And so I do think this business is divine. I mean, I wear this ring every day. It's a sunflower and it's, it's, uh, for Christie because that was her emblem when she passed away. And so, you know, is it, is it luck or is it my angel Christie that is, you know, here? You're with me or, um, is it hard work? You know, I, I work seven days a week for sure. For sure. Um, but yeah, there's no way that a kid that grows up on a dirt road in Stanwood, Washington winds up on good morning America. You know, that, that, that doesn't, that doesn't happen. And I'm really, really clear on how fortunate I am. And, and so I, I think it's a blend. That's Carissa Bodner, founder of Thrive. Cosmetics. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app. So you never miss a new episode of the show. And as always, it's free. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, please sign up for my newsletter at guy Ross.com or on sub stack. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce with research by Chris Massini. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keely. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, Carla Estevez, Neva Grant, Casey Herman, JC Howard, John Isabella, Catherine Cipher, and Carrie Thompson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.