Three races that explain the genius of Gilles Villeneuve

The Athletic Fajille racing was a romantic thing. My preoccupation was in keeping myself alive, but for him the thing was to be fastest, every race, every lap. I believe he was the fastest racing driver the world has ever seen. If he could come back tomorrow and live his life over again, I'm sure he would do it the same way and with the same love. That was the right word. More than anyone I've known, Jill was in love with motor racing. Hello and welcome to Anne Colossally That's History, the podcast that re-appraisers motor racing history. I'm Richard Williams. And I'm Matt Bischer and I hope you enjoyed that rather different start to today's podcast. The words I read were those of Jodie Schechter, the 1979 Formula One World Champion, as quoted in Motorsport Magazine and they were about the man we're going to talk about today. Yes, the great Jill Villeneuve. Across little more than four full seasons in the late 1970s and early 1980s, Villeneuve started 67 Formula One Grand Prix, winning six of them. To some, particularly those unfamiliar with this more quietly spoken driver from Canada, that might seem like a solid, if fairly unspectacular record. And yet, speak to anyone in Grand Prix circles at the time, particularly those who watched him race at close quarters, and they'll tell you that Jill was right up there with the very best ever to get behind the wheel. A thrilling, explosively quick and supremely talented driver who ranks alongside the likes of Fangio, Clark, Stuart, Senna, Schumacher, and now Hamilton and Verstappen. And in this episode, we'll try to explain why. Yep, that's the aim. In truth, there's so much to talk about when it comes to Jill Villeneuve, certainly too much to squeeze into one podcast. So on today's episode, we're going to park one or two topics, like his falling out with D.D. A. Peroni and his tragic violent death at Zolder in 1982. And we're going to talk specifically about Jill Villeneuve, the driving genius, a guy who was so expressive behind the wheel that he made piloting an F1 car into a sort of art form. He did, indeed, end to help us do that. We've picked out just three races from his former one career, that we think encapsulate what made him so very special. And we're going to go through them in chronological order. But first, before we get into those races, we both watched Villeneuve in his pomp, didn't we Richard, but were you or are you a Villeneuve fan? And given that this podcast is all about re-appraising the past, has your feeling towards him changed at all over the years? No, it hasn't. I was a fan then, and I'm a fan now. And that's because no driver in our lifetimes has more exhilaratingly imagined exhilaratingly embodied the thing in the end that we all want from motor racing, the thing that draws us to it. And that's drama. Apart from everything else, when Jill was on the track, drama was guaranteed. And I mean, as a spectator, what do you look for in a racing driver? You look for someone whose first instinct when he gets into a car is to find someone to overtake. And that very obviously was the bloke in the number 27 Ferrari. So what's your last impression of in that? Well, I agree with you. First of all, I agree with you about drama. I think that's a good word to use, Richard. But in addition to that, in addition to the drama, above all, Jill Villeneuve was quick, sensationally quick, unbelievably quick in the wet, especially, and a battle, a real battle. Unable, not just unwilling, but unable to throw in the towel. Incapable of giving up. And all of that was driven by passion. And as Jodie Shekder rightly says, by love, by love too. But Villeneuve had his critics, some journalists of the time, and even some of his rival drivers, thought he drove with so little margin that they called him a rock ape. That was the term often used about him. It isn't often used about anyone these days, rock ape, and rightly not. Because it's not actually a very nice term. Rock apes were, or are, a species of violent, humanoid creatures that were allegedly seen by American soldiers during the Vietnam War, dwelling in rocky terrain, hence rock ape, and/or even hurling rocks at them, at the GI's, I mean, hence again, rock ape. John Watson was very critical of Jill Villeneuve's on track demeanor, for example. Watson thought Jill, he thought he was a bit of a rock ape. And by the way, to be fair to what he and anybody else who might use that term or other derogatory terms about him, it wasn't that whaty or any of Villeneuve's other critics thought he was a danger to other drivers, because he wasn't aggressive in that way, actually, but that he was a danger to himself. He was too often too close to the ragged edge, they thought. And by the way, Jackie Stewart thought the same way about the young Jackie X, if you remember. Yet still Watson was one of the drivers who stopped to try to help Villeneuve in his hour of need at Zolder in 1982, in vain as it turned out, of course. I'm actually very fond of whaty, and I think that was typical of him, to stop and try to help a fellow driver in extremists, whom he didn't in all honesty, have a lot of time for. By the way, he stopped for Nikki Lauder as well. He hadn't he, he didn't. It nerve-wronged. Yeah, 76. Anyway, we're going to get into our three races in a moment, but before that, it's probably worth our briefly exploring Jules Root to Formula One, because it wasn't at all conventional. Was it Richard? No, it wasn't. Unlike today, when virtually every F1 driver follows the same career path of carting from a very young age, and then climbing a fairly rigid single-seater ladder, back in the 1970s, when Gila Rive, Dineff won, drivers still came from a variety of racing backgrounds, which to my mind made them more interesting. Yes, less formalyic. But even so, Gila Rive start was especially unconventional, because although he was interested in cars and driving fast from a young age, he actually got his start in motorsport racing snowmobiles in his native Quebec, where the winters are long and cold. It's amazing to think that. I mean, no one could do that now. You could not. You could not. You could not. I think what funny must have. And as you might expect, it was a pretty hazardous pastime, but Jules was blessed with an unusual level of bravery, and as would become clear, an innate feeling for driving, or riding in the case of a snowmobile, at high speed. Do you ride or drive a snowmobile? Ride, I would have thought. Maybe you ride one. We mentioned the great Canadian writer Jerry Donelson on this podcast before, and his book, "Jules Villeneuve, the Life of the Legendary Racing Driver" is certainly the definitive "Jules" book, and we'd thoroughly recommend picking up a copy. But I want to read you a short passage from Jerry's book, because it highlights the role snowmobile racing had on the driver, "Jules would become." With a steadfast belief in his own ability, he kept the throttle level with one handlebar pressed wide open, while the brake lever on the other was seldom brought into play. He developed a finely tuned sense of balance, and an almost delicate sensitivity to know just how far he could tempt the centrifugal force that contrived to throw his mount off into the hay bales surrounding the slippery circuit. His point of no return became much farther than most, as he honed his reflexes to a lightning degree and trusted them to rescue him from the brink at the very last moment. Doesn't that sound just like "Jules," the Formula One driver? It does, and I may just draw to your attention that you said centrifugal, not centrifugal. That's the American spelling or pronunciation, sorry, was that correct? Was that deliberate because you're talking about an awful American? Oh, must be them, in that case. I'm interested. Centrifugal. Centrifugal. Tilted on a postcard, please. That's a potato potato. It's a late-sort-to-hot thing off. No, carry on. You're go. Let's not call the whole thing off just over centrifugal and centrifugal. Anyway, you asked me, "Does that just sound like "Jules," you did ask me that didn't you? I did. You did. And it absolutely does. As I've said already, flat out everywhere, all the time. And by the way, even on the road, actually. Back in the day, Formula One drivers, and you know, this is not defensible, but it's just how things were. Back in the day, Formula One drivers often do. used to race each other on the road. Yeah, it was irresponsible. But it was another age, and they just did it. Some of the drivers actually were quite disciplined on the road, and actually that was Jodie Schechter's style. Well, certainly it was by the time he'd arrived at Ferrari anyway. I don't know whether Sideway Schechter, as he used to, I think I did that in in Australia next, and anyway, Sideway Schechter in a South Africa next, and I don't know whether he was a bit of a rock ape on the road back in the day, but by the time he'd become a Ferrari driver, he was more professional. Anyway, Jill wasn't. Jill was always crazy fast, even on the road, and he enjoyed that white knuckles, ten tenths, ragged edge, Banzai rep reputation. In fact, Jodie says that Jill would speed up as he neared Maronello to make sure that any Tiffosi, who happened to spot his Ferrari on its way to the factory, would see that it was going hell for leather, screeching its brakes, tiresmoke, billowing from all four corners, opposite lock everywhere, of course. I believe that when he drove into the factory, they'd change all four tires on his road cars, a matter of course, before he went off. Is that right? I believe so, yeah. And I can imagine it kind of that tick tick tick tick and the smell. Yeah, tell tale. Xville Jill Villeneuve drive from the airport to Maronello, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, one careful driver. Yes. Anyway, the other unconventional element of Jill's route to Formula One was that not just the snowmobiles, but that also he never raced in Europe at all before making it into Formula One. Can you imagine that today? You cannot. You can't. You can't. And here's a thing. People may or may not know that James Hunt played a big role in Jill Villeneuve getting his Formula One chance, actually. As Alistair Caudwell, McLaren's former chief mechanic and team manager remembers it. The first he or indeed many other people in Formula One had heard of Jill was when Hunt and a few other Formula One regulars went to Canada. I think the other regulars certainly Alan Jones was among them, perhaps Vittorial Brombiller. Certainly Jones. Certainly Jones. Anyway, they went to Canada to do a Formula Atlantic race at Troix Riviere, three rivers in 1976, which was something that Formula One stars occasionally did back then. And Jill beat them all. That was remarkable because he didn't only beat Hunt, but also Alan Jones, as I say, who, like Hunt, would also go on to become a Formula One world champion. A call to Caudwell quote, "When James came back," he said, "This kid's a genius. He can really drive." And it was a really, this is Caudwell still speaking, it was a very, very rare thing for a driver to extol the virtues of another. So Teddy Mayer, obviously the McLaren boss, called Jill, telephoned him and asked him to come and see us. This is still Caudwell's quote. The following day, our receptionist called up to say, "There was this young man downstairs called Jill Villeneuve, who'd like to see you." Now this was the kind of guy we liked. He'd found a flight to London, he'd made his way to Colmbrook, just west of London, where the McLaren factory was, and here he was. We showed him the cars, and he was just mad about them, full of enthusiasm. And this was the perfect kind of driver for us, needed no babying, and he couldn't wait to drive the car." So as we'll go on to discuss, Jill did all but one of his F1 races, Grand Prix for Ferrari, and that's as it should be really, because you could say, and we probably will go on to say, that he was the archetypal Ferrari driver in so many ways, but it was the Scuderia's Arch-Rivals McLaren, who actually gave him his Formula 1 start at Silverstone in 1977. He'd finished that British Grand Prix in 11th place, after losing a couple of laps to a 40-temperature gauge, but by that stage he'd already impressed many observers with his otherworldly car control. Were you there, by the way? No, I wasn't. I wish I had been. No, I was there British Grand Prix in 76, 78, 79, but I wasn't there in 77. Anyway, this is an interesting point that a lot of people I think necessarily appreciate, but I might be wrong, but it's my impression that not that many do. We'll see. Another young driver was also looking very impressive in the second half of 1977, and that was Patrick Tombay, who was doing mighty things in a lowly enzyme. I mean, he would have finished third at Zanvort in that car, but for, I think, running out of fuel, he ended up fifth or sixth, but he would have finished third on the podium and an enzyme. It just didn't really happen, and he was a rookie. Anyway, this may sound odd now, but actually Ferrari and McLaren were both gunning to hire Tombay, not Philnerve. However, lyrical, Coldwell went on to wax about him, and it was only because McLaren got Tombay's signature first that Ferrari signed whom both teams then regarded as the second best choice, Philnerve. Now, to be clear, Patrick Tombay was a lovely man, much missed, and was actually a very fine driver, you know, a two-time Grand Prix winner for Ferrari, funnily enough, and a two-time Cannam champion, but he wasn't as good as Jules Villnerve. I mean, almost no one was. No, but McLaren would have been taking a chance at that point, given the option, you know, Tombay was a known quantity and a very good driver and, much more experienced, but anyway, fate stepped in with an invitation to Gilles for to test for Ferrari, and in 1977, he flew to Italy to meet Enso Ferrari and to try one of the cars. Fiorano, I suppose. Fiorano, yeah. And I think we should also mention the role played by the tobacco company executive John Hogan, who handled Marbra's motor racing sponsorship, which included sponsoring McLaren, of course, and of course, paying the salaries of Ferrari's drivers. After that race at Trieruviere, James hunted talk to Hogan about Gilles as well as to Teddy Mayor, and Hogan certainly played a part in getting Ferrari interested and in helping to make the deal. The Marbra name wasn't yet on the Italian cars, but it would be on Gilles' helmet and his overalls. Just to say, John Hogan, I thought was a great guy. I really enjoyed his company. He died only about three or four years ago. Complications from COVID. And a very important backroom figure in Trieruviere, one for many, many years. Australia, of course. Yeah. And as we've talked about before, Enso Ferrari had a strange relationship with some of his drivers, but Gilles was always a bit different. Partly because quite a side from anything else, he reminded the old man of Tatsio Nivalari, who Ferrari had run in his team before the war, and who he often said was his favorite driver, along with Sterling Moss. Interesting that Sterling Moss is in that same echelon when, of course, he never drove for the old man. No, and nearly did. Yeah, nearly did was about to when he had his bad accident in 1962, but there we are. Another podcast. Yeah. Enso wrote about Gilles in his memoirs, and he said, "When they presented me with this little Canadian, this minu-school bundle of nerves, I immediately recognised in him the physique of Nivalari, and I said to myself, 'Let's give him a try.' Quite a compliment coming from the old man, who spent six decades closely observing all the greats." I mean, a fantastic compliment, actually. And speaking of the greats, one man who Enso Ferrari didn't necessarily see eye to eye with, as I think we've mentioned on the pod before in previous episodes, was Juan Manuel Fanzio, the five-time Formula One World Champion from the 1950s. And if I may, I'd like to quote Fanzio now. Because after Vilner's death in 1982, he, Fanzio, spoke of Enso Ferrari's Tazio Nivalari comparison. He spoke his words in Spanish, of course, but here's an English translation. Quote, "Gill Vilner will remain a member of the family of truly great drivers forever." Enso Ferrari, a great authority on such matters. Slightly damning with faint praise there, I would say. But anyway, never mind, Enso Ferrari, a great authority on such matters, has compared him to Tazio Nivalari. In my younger days, Nivalari was the absolute idol. All drivers aspire to be compared to the great Nivalari. They struggled to match him. They couldn't, but they could try to imitate him. So to be compared to Nivalari, by Ferrari is to receive the very highest praise. It's a good quote, isn't it? Very good and that's absolutely right. And the rest, as they say, is history. Nikki loud-e-left Ferrari at the end of 1977, after sealing his second world. title and Vilnerve got his chance and he'd race for the team until his death at the wheel in 1982. Yes, that brings us up to speed quite quickly on Vilnerve's early career and how he came to race for Ferrari. So now let's get into the three races that we think exemplify the Vilnerve genius because, as you say Richard, all of them were driven at the wheel of a Ferrari and to be clear we haven't selected wins only. In fact we chose on a win, a second and a third. And the first race we've chosen is from 1979, I bet people were expecting this one. And the first was chosen 1979, the 1979 French Grand Prix in fact at Dijon. Now if you're familiar with Vilnerve you'll know that this was not a racey one. Although he'd won three Formula One Grand Prix by that time already. The first of those wins in freezing cold conditions on home soil in Canada in 1978, perhaps one of the very coldest Grand Prix of all time. I think the mercury got up to about five degrees at one point. Anyway at the circuit that now bears his name, the circuit Gillesville Neuve, the second was in South Africa the following year 1979 and the third the very next Grand Prix Long Beach in the United States 1979 where he won from pole position and posted fastest lap. And honestly there are great things to say about all three of those Vilnerve wins. But we haven't got time to do all of those besides Dijon showcased something else. And in many ways it's the defining race of his whole career. Yeah and it's actually one of those races that became famous for several reasons because some might remember it not so much even for Vilnerve swashbuckling battle with R&A R new, more on which in a moment. But for the fact that Jean-Pierre Jablouille scored the very first F1 victory for a turbo powered car in a Renault on home soil no less French team French chassis and engine French tires French petrol French oil and a French driver Vive la France. Vive la France. J'en dégoire. A hugely significant moment not just for Renault and Jablouille but for F1 in general because up to then the Renault's had been fast but hugely unreliable. But within a few years every car on the grid will be powered by a turbo. But nowadays Dijon 79 is very much remembered for the mother of all on track battles between Vilnerve in the Ferrari and our new who was driving the other Renault. Yeah and I'm glad you mentioned Jablouille because I've always had a soft spot for him you know as you say and as we're going to go on to describe the race is known for the battle for second but actually a quarter of a minute up the road winning in very very dominant style was Jablouille. Yeah and he'd done all the work developing the Renault turbo and you know been laughed out like the whole team when they turned up first and you know the thing didn't go very well and it looked a bit eccentric and it looked eccentric it was pouring smoke he never finished a race. So this was payback it was it was it was back to the subject the fight for second place between Vilnerve and our new which was ultimately won by Vilnerve is often regarded as the greatest wheel to wheel battle in the history of Formula One. Now that is a very sweeping statement but I think we're going to try and justify it because it may just be right and by the way I urge you dear listener if you haven't watched it to go and check it out on YouTube because it really is something else. So how did it play out and why was it such a pivotable pivotal race in the Vilnerve canon? Did you like the use of the word canon there? I like pivotable actually sorry pivotable canons I'm going to write a novel one day for pivotable canons. Anyway going back to the subject Harvey Possilth weight not pivotable necessarily that is a tongue twister the pivotable Possilth weight. Harvey Possilth weight the British engineer who would later be hand picked by Enzo Ferrari to help fix the team's chassis problems in 1981 if you remember he once said of Vilnerve and I'm going to read another quote here I've never known a racing driver quite like him given a choice between going for the lead and destroying his tires or going carefully and finishing third Jill would always choose the former great quote and quite right and although Vilnerve did in fact beat Arnou to the second place though we're fighting over at Dijon Dijon 79 was a bit like that actually because the Renault's of Jabui and Arnou locked out the front row making the most of their much superior turbo horsepower but Vilnerve qualified third in his Ferrari 312 T4 with its Torkey 3 liter flat 12 and he took the lead at the start because the Renault turbos as they had a tendency to do if you remember got bogged down anyway Jill knew that the Renault's were likely to catch him so what did he do in true Possilth weight style or in the way that Possilth weight described he put the hammer down hard of course he did destroy his tires in the process but as Possilth's weight said he was a driver Vilnerve was a driver who'd rather risk it all for the win than play safe and settle for a minor placing he knew one way to race and one way only and that's what he did at Dijon that day inevitably yes he was caught by the Renault but that didn't happen until lap 46 with Jill even more sideways everywhere than usual because he liked to set the car up with plenty of oversteer anyway but on that day the oversteer was even more excessive because he'd ruined his tires by over driving but as I say despite that it took 46 laps for Jabui to catch him and finally force his way through and then we got the Arnou Bantle, didn't we Richard? Yes and there was clearly a lot of respect between Arnou and Vilnerve and actually after this famous battle they became very good friends their backgrounds weren't too dissimilar in that they'd both got into F1 the hard way Arnou actually started as a racing mechanic for a long time before earning his place in the cockpit and his character behind the wheel was quite Jill like too in that he was extremely brave and determined they both had a kind of virtue in quality a hint of recklessness which is a sort of thing that fans respond to. And I gather that Arnou was very popular with the mechanics because he was one of them. Yeah yeah exactly yeah and do you remember he whenever you look at a picture of or almost whenever you look at a picture of Arnou he's hunched over the wheel leaning forwards his head cramed forward particularly distinctive body language in the car I once thought. Yep and that's interesting what you said about the mechanics it's a bit like Herman Lang in the Mercedes team for the war when the rest of the team were Aristo's more of less Karachille and von Brauchich and Simon and Lang had been a mechanic so he was and he was actually quicker than the other three so the mechanics were very keen on on him so. Anyway in this battle between Vilnerve and Arnou there was a level of trust there between the two of them I think both of them knew the other guy even though they might have been banging wheels they you know they weren't actually trying to have each other off something which even in the late 70s could easily have been lethal. And that is a good point well made and I don't want to get side tracked into comparing the 70s with now but it was different you might give no quarter but you didn't really try and have the other guy into the barrier. You know that kind of combat haven't been seen before with contact you know it was it was enthralling and exciting to watch but you didn't think it was dangerous because they were taking some guess. Well yes some did but I agree with you and we'll come to that but yes what you say about trust was apparent because even though the two banged wheels as you say several times actually and they diced you know wheel to wheel neck and neck over the final three laps of the race there was no deliberate let's put it that way there was no deliberate side swiping or deliberately aggressive behaviour just hard honest wheel to wheel racing. Arnou had actually got ahead with three laps to go but his Renault's turbo engine was suffering a fuel pickup issue so Vilnerve was able to stick with him. Jabberwee had motored away but Arnou could not and with two laps to go Vilnerve launched an incredible attack up the inside at the end of the start finish straight up the inside into turn one it's amazing you must look at it on YouTube if you haven't seen it before breaking later than late from way too far back actually all four wheels locked up tiresmoke everywhere the car twitching this way and that as he held it all together but it worked he'd nicked second place from Arnou against the odds and I'd I don't think Arnu was expecting him to go from that far back. But it wasn't enough to seal the deal because Arnu was a fighter like Jill and he too was in fighting mode now and on the final lap, well, was Pandemonium. Arnu, yes, fought back. As I say, the two cars running side by side through several turns, banging wheels were said that a few times but it's true, running off track a bit sometimes, neither driver giving an inch a millimeter. Eventually, with what our mutual friend Jerry Donelson describes as "a final fit of demonic late breaking" – great phrase, isn't it? Vilner have noseed in front and held onto his advantage to the line. Actually, I don't mean to criticize and I'm really not, but actually Arnu left the door open at a crucial moment. I've actually watched these last laps on YouTube with Kevin Magnuson many times. Kevin loves that kind of thing. He loves the history of the sport. He's really interested in it and his hero, by the way, is Sterling Moss. How about that? Who obviously had retired long before Kevin was born. Anyway, Kevin always looks wistful at that point when we're watching it, as if to say, "Oh, Renee, take a tighter line mate." You can just see it on Kev the racer's face. Anyway, it was truly fantastic stuff, an example of what made Vilner of great, that "Oh, so stubborn refusal to accept that he was beaten." That bloody minded determination to battle every inch of the way. By the way, personal reminiscence. On the day, in 1979, age 16, I watched it alone in my bedroom at home in London on an 11-inch black and white portable TV, which is all I had. It's all we had in the house, actually. And I remember feeling that I was going to burst with enthusiasm afterwards, but there was no one I could talk to about it. No one I knew was remotely interested in Formula One. It wasn't nearly as popular as it is now, of course. My brother liked cricket. My dad liked tennis. My mum liked no sports at all. And the next day at school, no one had watched it. No one. Yeah, as I say, Formula One was nothing like as popular than as it would later become, and none of my mates had even heard of Jill Vilner of Orrani Arnu. Anyway, Richard, have you ever seen a better on-track fight in Formula One? And do you remember where you were when you watched it? I don't, in fact, I'm sorry, I don't have your pin shot memory of 1979. I was watching on the telly, for sure. And no, in answer to your question, I've never seen a more spectacular on-track fight than that one. And of course, it took place in the days before Tarmac runoff areas and penalties for exceeding track limits. Which we could talk about at length if we wanted to. We probably will do one day, but nobody was waging a finger at them. They were just quite rightly allowed to get on with it and be grown-ups and sorted out themselves. Although actually a grown-priever just a little while before we recorded this episode, at Austin, Texas, produced a battle between Max Verstappen and Lando Norris, but wasn't entirely dissimilar. I knew you wouldn't be able to resist making a comparison with today. No, and I was thinking about Dijon '79 while I was watching it. Although the Max and Lando show came to an unhappy end, to do with track limits and not showing the other driver respect by allowing him space. Which, despite the extreme ferocity of their battle, is what Giel and René managed to do. Indeed they did. And clearly the crowd at Dijon, those watching on TV around the world, had been absolutely captivated by what went on. And the two, protagonists loved it too, as did Enso Ferrari, who cooed about his wonderful driver. And Mario Andretti, famously described, Viel Nerv and Arnoux as a couple of young lions clawing at each other. What a good quote. Yeah, typical. But not everyone was quite as glowing about what had taken place. Maro Fogieri, who was Ferrari's chief designer, thought Viel Nerv had taken too many risks. And some senior members of the Grand Prix Drivers Association agreed with him. In fact at the next race, Silverstone, during a GPDA meeting, Viel Nerv and Arnoux were widely admonished in front of their peers. By the likes of Viel Nerv's teammate, Jodie Schechter, Nikki Lauder, and Emerson Fittipaldi, all of whom thought the way the parod driven was far too dangerous. Or maybe it was too exciting and maybe it would, you know, do you think there was a bit of envy? I think there probably was, yeah. Might have been. And according to the great journalist Nigel Robuck, another mutual friend of ours, who was good friends with Viel Nerv, particularly good friends, close to Viel Nerv. The Canadian couldn't believe the things these senior drivers were saying. Jesus, he said to Robuck, they're supposed to be racing drivers. But what do you think, Matt? Were Schechter and Kose concerns valid at the time? Well, it's a good question. As I've already said, John Watson was also one of the critics of the Viel Nerv, Arnoux battle at Dijon, as well as the drivers you've mentioned. And I think you have to remember that this was the 1970s. You know, all those drivers had seen tragedy. All those drivers had seen death close up. Lauder had nearly died himself at Nerv agreeing in 1976, of course. Well, Schechter had stopped at Watkins Glen in 1973, hoping to help François Sever, whose Tyrell he'd been following in practice when Sever had had his big shunt at the uphill S's there. And I mean, Jodie's told me about this. And what Jodie saw when he got out to have a look, as no easy way to describe this. But anyway, one driver in two halves. He never quite got over it. He certainly never, well, he certainly raced in a more circumspect way after that. Even though he was still quick, very quick. And indeed, he won the Formula One drivers world championship six years later. And who else could we mention? Right. Yes. Fiddy Poldy. And Watson had also had more than their fair share of horrors in the 1970s. Emerson had had to cope with the death of his team leader at Lotus. I mean, you can rinse, I mean, obviously. At Monza in 1970, when he was a very raw, new, rookie. And what he had seen a lot of bad stuff too. I mean, by the way, as we've said, what he and Emerson Fiddy Poldy both stopped to try to help Nikki Lauder at Nobu Green. So you know, they'd all seen bad stuff. And I think we should remember that. So I don't blame them. And although I do have a hell of a lot of respect for Mario and Dretty, I think, as a racing driver, we all do. Obviously. But he could be here, get ready for a bit of a controversial statement. But Andretty could be a bit of a rock ape sometimes too. I remember talking to Johnny Rutherford about AJ Foyte and Mario and Dretty, actually, when I was at Indy in 2017, when I was there as a McLaren guy to handle the comms and PR operation around Fernando's, Fernando Lonsos first attempt at the Indy 500, which you probably remember. I do. And you did very well with the publicity out of that as I recall. That was the whole plan. I mean, yes, Fernando, you're going to go and try and win the Indy 500, but really, we needed to get some positive PR for our sponsors, where we weren't getting any informal one. And if you remember, he skipped Monaco to do it in Jim Clark's style. Anyway, unfortunately, he didn't win. But anyway, Rutherford was full of praise for both of them. Obviously, Andretty and Foyte, not surprisingly, because they're both absolute Indy legends, as by the way, Rutherford is as well. But Johnny, Johnny Rutherford left me in no doubt that of the two, the driver he'd rather go wheel to wheel with was AJ, not Mario. No question about it. Interesting. So that's Dijon 79. And after this short break, we'll look at another of Villeneuve's career-defining races. The next race we're going to talk about is the 1981 Spanish Grand Prix at Harama, which is often regarded as Villeneuve's greatest ever race. Certainly, his greatest ever win. And with good reason, in my opinion. How should we put it? That year's Ferrari, the 126CK, was not a very good car. Would we go so far as to call it? This is a technical term I'm going to use now. A shitbox. Would we Richard? Perhaps you could give that in your nicky-louder voice. It was a total shitbox. Really? Excellent. Yeah. I'm sorry, but we would call it one of those. It is an appropriate term. However, by then Ferrari had a turbo engine, but although it was a very powerful engine, potentially the most powerful engine on the grid, in fact, it suffered terribly from turbo engine. turbo lag, which for listeners who haven't steeped themselves in F1 jargon, although I'm sure many of our listeners have, is a delayed and uneven delivery of power. But even worse than that was the car's handling. Harvey Possilthweight, we've mentioned him earlier, and he'd been drafted in, as I said, to help Ferrari solve their car problems, estimated that the Ferrari 126CK had "a quarter of the downforce that the Williams or Brabham had that year." And it had an incredibly stiff ride too. They probably had less downforce than the Leisure and various others as well. Anyway, Vilnerve referred to it as "my big red Cadillac", because it would go fast enough on the Straits but was awful around the corners. But despite all that, he arrived in Spain off the back of an improbable, remarkable victory at Monaco. And that's another great race that we could have spoken about actually, but again, we haven't got time. But there at Monaco, an out of this world qualifying lap by Vilnerve in that truck of a Ferrari, had put him second on the grid to Nelson P.K.'s "underweight" Brabham, may I say? Surely not. Allegedly. A full second faster than the next turbo-powered car, and nearly two and a half seconds get that. Two and a half seconds quicker than his Ferrari teammate, Didier Peroni, who was absolutely no slouch himself. Didier Peroni was a fast driver. Really quick. Really quick. Anyway, Vilnerve then kept his call in the race, and when P.K. crashed out and Alan Jones ran out of fuel, he was there to take a truly unlikely victory. That was Monaco, of course. Yes, that was a great win. Pretty well all wins at Monaco, great wins one way or another. And it showed that Gilles had it in him to do what all the greats do, which is win in a poor car. Absolutely. All I have to say, contrary to its drivers' opinions, I'd rather like the one to seek a CK, because it's always thrilling to watch a great driver working with a car that has more power than it's chassis can handle. I agree with you. And to be fair. I agree. And actually, it's quite pretty in its funny way. But that Monaco win an ode of fair amount to circumstance and the misfortune of others, whereas his win at Harama was better still because it was all down to him. He qualified seventh on the grid, and fully expected his Ferrari to destroy its tyres early on in the race. And according to another of our journalist's friends, Peter Windsor, Gilles said that the handling was so spectacularly bad that the marshals were taking cover every time he arrived at a corner. What a great image, fabulous. But after he'd sized his way up to third at the start and then passed Carlos Reutemann's Williams per second on lap two, Phil Nob was in a position to inherit the lead on lap 14 when Alan Jones, who was leading in his Williams, made a mistake and went off. So with 66 laps to go and a queue of much quicker cars behind him, no one was seriously expecting Ville-Nerve to stay in front. But that's just what he did. Yes, he did. And I think I'd like to read you another bit of Jerry Donaldson's Ville-Nerve book now, because he quite brilliantly summarises the last part of the race when Ville-Nerve was defying the odds to cling onto the lead. So this is Jerry now quoted. For the last 18 laps, the first five roared around and around like a high speed freight train, a Ferrari engine leading the cars of Ligier, Jacques Lafitte, McLaren, John Watson, and Williams, Carlos Reutemann, with a Lotus Caboose, manned by Elio DeAngelis, who had a small lead over teammate Nigel Mansel, who was sixth. Sorry, I was laughing then, because if you aren't aware of what a Caboose is, remember that Jerry is Canadian. A Caboose is a railroad car coupled to the end of an North American freight train. Anyway, here's Jerry's prose again. "While his followers cornered as if on rails, Ville-Nerve's tired tires afforded him ever more precarious purchase on an increasingly dirty track surface. The car dodged drunkenly on tiktot through each of Haram's 16 bends. Then, as the power of 550 prancing horses beneath his right foot was given full reign, the Ferrari surged ahead on the straits. His virtuoso performance created a concertina-like effect, as the questing cue behind him closed up in the corners, then fell back in momentary exasperation, before squeezing in behind him yet again. The pace was frenetic. The heat intense and the tension electric, as the final laps were reeled off. Jill had only to lose concentration, fumble a gear change, or slide a millimeter off line, and he would instantly switch from Victor to vanquished." Fantastic writing, isn't it? "Typical of Jerry." "Typical of Jerry." Anyway, it describes so well the tight trope that Ville-Nerve was walking or driving. He eventually held on to win by a fifth of a second only, from LaFitte, with the top five drivers covered by just 1.24 seconds. Oh, and here's a nice anorak fact, our first of this pod. In the last few laps, Ville-Nerve switched off his rev limiter to hell with the consequences, and his engine held together to the finish despite that abuse. "That's not a nivalari touch, I don't know what it really is." "Nivalari wouldn't have had much time for rev limitres in those circumstances, either." It would have been very easy at that stage for Jill to make a mistake. Actually, he wasn't particularly averse to making mistakes, largely because he pushed the limits so much. In fact, you remember we talked about his first F1 race at Silverstone, the McLaren, when he'd surprised the team and rather disconcerted them by spinning at nearly every corner in practice. Some people were shocked by that, but they didn't know Jill, and it seemed like a pretty undisciplined way for a rookie to behave. But the truth was different, and when he was asked about it, he said, "How else can I tell how fast I'm going?" It was just his way of finding the limit. Perfectly logical. In Spain, he knew his and the car's limits, and he drove right up to but never over them. Vilner was often remembered as a flamboyant swashbuckling driver, a kind of cavalier of the track. But Spain showed that he was a clever, calculating one, too. He could be around head when he needed to be. Indeed, and that's well put, I think. Vilner would go on to say that it was the best race of his life, that was his view. Gordon Murray, the great Gordon Murray, who was then Robbins lead designer, went a step further, saying the following, and here's a Murray quote, "I honestly think it was the greatest drive I've ever seen by anybody." I'm extraordinary quote, isn't it? It is. Amazing quote. And he goes on to say, "That chassis is awful, worse by far than that of any other driver. His driving was just unreal, to get that car around 80 laps without making mistake is an achievement. To do it when you're leading and under constant pressure is unbelievable." Great quote. Richard, "Where do you stand on the art of the defensive drive?" Because actually that's what we're talking about. It was a defensive drive. They're very rare in Formula One these days because of the advent of DRS, of course. Is that a shame? Well, you wouldn't want to see a defensive drive winning a race too often, but I do miss them a bit, whether they come off as you'll mesmerising drive did, or even when they come spectacularly unstuck. Matt, you're almost old enough to remember Monaco in 1970, when Jack Brabham crashed on the last corner of the final lap, handing the win to Jochen Rint, who'd been hounding in lap after lap. That kind of thing, I used to think added to the entertainment. I do too. It's not all about overtaking. No, it doesn't. We've spoken about how Enzo Ferrari came to love Juel Villeneuve, perhaps more than any driver he'd worked with before by Tatsio Nerva-Lari. After Spain, Enzo said, "Juel Villeneuve on Sunday made me live again the legend of Tatsio Nerva-Lari." And, as I said earlier, there's no higher praise. Do you think this was his best race? It certainly feels like the one where Juel answered a lot of critics who thought he could perhaps only drive one way. Oh, yes. I do. I do think it was his best race. In fact, I once wrote a column about that race for motorsport. And my last paragraph was, "Was it Villeneuve's greatest race victory?" It was. It was one of the greatest race victories of all time. And I meant by anyone, actually. And that feels like a good time for our final egg break. [Music] We're going to move on now to the final race in our Jill Villeneuve Trilogy. And again it's from 1981. We've gone for drum roll the 1981 Canadian Grand Prix, which might be a surprise to some, but we think it's another race that underpins Villeneuve's legendary ability and status. Notably this was a wet race. And if you talk about Formula One's greatest drivers, they invariably excelled in the wet. You know, I'm talking about Clark, Stuart, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, Verstappen, or Brilliant in the wet. And actually, well before the 1981 Canadian Grand Prix in Montreal, Villeneuve's prowess in the wet was already well known. One race that sticks in the memory is the 1979 United States Grand Prix at Watkins Glen, a very quick, very challenging circuit in the dry, let alone in the wet. On the Friday, it absolutely chucked it down. Most drivers thought it was too wet even to go out in the first session. Julie Crowne World Champion, Jodie Schechter, was one of those to venture out. And he admitted he'd scoured himself rigid, posting a lap in torrential conditions of two minutes and eleven seconds. Remember that, two minutes and eleven seconds. He said, "Jodie, I thought I had to be quickest afterwards. Then I saw Jill's time. I still don't really understand how it was possible." That was his quote. And guess what Jill's time was? Two minutes and one second. Almost ten seconds faster than his teammate Schechter had managed. And by the way, Schechter had thought he must be fastest. He thought he'd nailed it that well. But he'd been beaten by ten seconds in the same car. And far from being scared, Jill was beaming from ear to ear when he returned to the pits apparently. And that day, many of his peers admitted that Vilnov was a cut above. Our mutual friend Nigel Robuck, who we've mentioned before, the Great Orr sport journalist, says that a watching Jacques Lafitte turned to him that day and said, "Look at him. He's different from the rest of us on a separate level." Can't argue with that. And the early years in snowmobiles must have had a lot to do with it when Jill was learning how to feel the edge of adhesion in those conditions. Chris Aiman actually said, "The only driver he ever saw with as much car control as Jill was Jimmy Clark." What? Massively high praise again. Yeah, it's like being a bed and a Ferrari by Ferrari. It is, it is. But the big difference between that wet race at Watkins Glen in 1979 and the one we're talking about at Montreal in 1981 was that the 1979 Ferrari was a nicely balanced car with a smooth power delivery from a normally aspirated flat 12 engine. Whereas the turbocharged 81 Ferrari, as we mentioned, was not. Yeah, after all the 79 Ferrari was a world championship winning car. Yes it was. Yeah. The Montreal circuit on the Eel Notre Dame is about 80 kilometers or so from Betioville where Jill grew up with his younger brother, Jacques. And the 1981 Canadian Grand Prix is notable for being the first of three Grand Prix's where Jacques appeared in an F1 car. He tried and failed to qualify an Aero's A3, but that's another story and an Anorak fact. It is a good Anorak fact. I don't know we can devote a podcast to the Aero's A3 perhaps. But it's a good Anorak fact. Anyway, where were we? Yes. And Jacques Seania of course, not the 1997 Formula One Champion, Jacques Junior. Jacques Seania didn't qualify. Jill qualified in 11th place, not great. One place ahead of his Ferrari teammate, Didier Peroni. Although he managed to write his car off in practice and had to use a spare car for the race in the days when teams were allowed spare cars of course. But in contrast to qualifying, the race would be not dry but wet. Very, very wet. And the rain favor the teams contracted to Michelin, whose rain tyres were impressively grippier than the good year wets. It wasn't therefore surprising that two seasoned old hands who had decent but not brilliant, but decent cars underneath them fitted with Michelins. They did rather well. And John Watson in a McLaren. And they had qualified alongside each other on the 5th row so nothing special. But in the downpour on race day, they drove superbly, both of them on Michelins, to finish first and second just six seconds apart. It was actually Lafitte's sixth and final Formula One win. And fair play to him for that, but we're actually here to talk about Vilner's eventful run to third. So let's do that. On lap 40 of 63, Jill came up to lap, Alio de Angelis's good year tired Lotus at the happen, and the two cars collided. Both drivers spun, but both got going again. Vilner have now handicapped by a loose front wing. He's dyristically undaunted, totally undaunted, Vilner, well, what do you think? He continued to race at full speed, obviously, that was Jill. And as he did so, the airflow licked around his Ferrari's loose front wing and the nose cone to which it was attached, kind of gradually bending the whole front assembly of the bodywork more and more, finally twisting it up and in front of the cockpit so that he could see past it only by craning his head from side to side. I mean, Google it. The photographs of his car at that point are truly amazing. You know, a loss of front downforce must have been the least of his worries. He could barely see. Yeah. And of course, you'd be immediately black flagged at that point these days, wouldn't you? Or at least you'd be made to come into the pits at once and have the loose bodywork removed and replaced. And if you couldn't replace it, you'd be wheeled away. Yes. And actually, it's interesting you should say that because at the time Jackie Stewart, who was in the TV commentary booth, predicted exactly that. He said he's going to be black flagged, but it never happened. I mean, he was the local hero at home, of course. Anyway, instead Vilnerv hatched a plan. The details of what happened next were little reported at the time, but they were witnessed and later written down by the one photographer who was standing resolutely, bravely at the hapen soaked to the skin as the rain continued to fall. Richard Kelly. I'll quote him if I may, because I say he wrote about it and it's great stuff. Here's the quote, "Jill's only chance was to deliberately break the nose cone and front wing clean off under breaking. And the hapen was where I thought he would do it. Sure enough, a few laps later, he absolutely buried the brake pedal, slamming the Ferrari's front end onto the pavement. The nose and front wing duly broke free as they jammed down onto the asphalt. Very smart thinking, Richard, but very Jill." You were amazing that he not only thought of it, but managed to execute it. And he actually had quite a lot to think about apart from that, because the Ferrari's turbo engine was misfiring on path throttle, which of course in the rain, path throttle is what you need all the way through the race. It's an astonishing drive. I'm glad we've selected it as one of these three because it's not everybody's list, but I'm glad we have. Anyway, what happened next? Well, finally free of his bent up front wing and nose cone, Vilnov managed to control the resulting absolutely giant tank slapper. You can see it on YouTube, by the way. And yes, he completed the race in his Ferrari technical term, warning coming up, shipbox, inner-body work, in torrential rain, finishing third, having lapped everyone except the two men ahead of him. And get this, 11 drivers spun off or crashed out. And one, Alan Jones, not really the kind of person you regard as a shrinking violet, retired voluntarily. Even Jack LaFite, who won, said afterwards, quote, "I didn't like driving today." It's not a great quote, but it's a very clear quote. John Watson second, better quote, as follows. "Today's conditions were the worst I've ever raced in." "Get what Vilnov said, I'll tell you." "Oh, it wasn't too bad." Yeah, that's another very clear example, not just of Vilnov's driving ability, but of his whole attitude to racing. Dennis Jenkinson, a motorsport, wrote in his race report, he just doesn't know the meaning of giving up. And for Janks, who wrote a wonderful book called The Racing Driver, that was the way a real racer should think. Mar-o-Forgiery once described Gilles as having what he called "a rage to win greater than any driver he'd known." Even though Gilles didn't win on this day, his desire to finish and finish well was obvious, and that's what endeared him so much to fans around the world, fans like you and me, Matt, I mean. Absolutely, and a rage to win is a great phrase. And very apt and accurate in describing Gilles Villeneuve. Anyway, that wraps up the third and final race in our trilogy, but don't go away yet, listeners, please, because before we go, I want to bring us back to the start of our conversation when we talked about Villeneuve being mentioned in the same breath as drivers like Senna, Clark, Fanzhou and so on. Unlike those drivers, Gilles never won the Formula One Driver's World Championship, he only won six Grand Prix. Although perhaps he might have won, if he hadn't been killed in 1982, he might have won that year, he probably would have done, I think. But maybe there's another title we can bestow on him other than World Champion. We've titled this episode "Three Races That Explain the Genius of Gilles Villeneuve." Do you think Gilles is an apt term Richard? Well, if he can be talked about in the same breath as Nouvellari, then to my mind, that settles it because Nouvellari was certainly a genius. Yeah. Was Gilles the best though, or the quickest? Better than Fanzhou or Schumacher, quicker than Senna or Clark? Certainly we can say he was the most thrilling anyway. I think that's a good description. Yeah. The first time I saw him live, I was standing in the Lotus Pit at Zolder in 1978 when he came tearing into the pit next door during the race, with the Ferrari's left front tire in shreds. There were no speed limits in the pit lane in those days. He'd been lying second behind Mario Andretti's Lotus '79, which was simply uncatchable. And he'd done almost a whole lap on that disintegrating tire. And back then, of course, Ferrari pit stops weren't the precisely choreographed events they are today. Not always today. No, that's true, but mostly, but in those days, they were something very different. So excitement was guaranteed, even when Gilles wasn't going to finish higher than the fourth thanks to that stop. One thing that's clear is that while his daredevil tactics may have exasperated some of his rivals from time to time, there's no doubt that they all respected his ability enormously. And they almost universally liked him as a person too, because he was genuine, honest and unpolitical. If I can just stop you there a second, I never met him. I was 19 when he died. Did you ever meet him? Not really. I mean, brushed against him as it were, but I never sat down and had a conversation. But people who did always say what a lovely champion was. Yeah, warm to him. I think that's absolutely right. So whether he was going around the outside of Alan Jones through the 180-degree Tarsanne at Zanvot or diving inside Mario Andretti into Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch, those guys, two world champions, unhazitatingly gave him enough room to do what he wanted to do. Yeah, indeed. I also remember his unselfishness. Monzer in '79, I was in a grandstaff between the two Les Mo' Curves, watching him follow in Jodie Schechter's wheel tracks for the whole race, first and second. She was already a Grand Prix winner, but he was working under team orders so that his team leader could take maximum points for the win and clinch the world championship, which is what happened. And there was no hint of a complaint from Billner, and that took discipline. Yes, although to be fair to Jodie, and by the way, as I say, I never met Jill, but I know Jodie quite well and like him a lot, but to be fair to Jodie, he says now that he gradually started shifting up on that day at Monzer in 1979, shifting up at lower and lower revs to make sure that his engine would last to the end. First at 12,000 RPM, which was the normal shift up point, then at 11,000, and finally at just 10,000. And running just behind, Jill knew about that. Jill knew what he Jodie was doing, and he duly ran in line a stern, as you say. But neither of them was driving anywhere near the limit. So I've always thought it was a bit unfair on Jodie when people said Jill could easily have won that race. The key thing though is, and as you say, is that Billner didn't do the dirty on-shakter at the very end to nick the win on the sly, as Pironi did to Billner that him and her three years later, which I think is another podcast. Yes, it is, another day. But I still reckon that had they been racing each other properly, Jill could have taken Jodie if he'd been feeling selfish. But today at Ferrari, he has almost godlike status. I'm sure you know the famous photo of Jill sitting next to Enzo Ferrari, both of them laughing their heads off. Great picture. Wonderful. You know, you won't find many photos of the old man laughing in a public setting, not good for the image, but that's the effect Jill had on him. Yeah. And I'd like to finish off by reading the words of Nikki Lauder, spoken on the morning of the Belgian Grand Prix in 1982, the day after Jill was killed in the final qualifying session. Quote from Nikki. Jill was the perfect racing driver, I think. He had the best talent of all of us. In any car he was quick. He didn't drive for points, but to win races. I liked him even more than I admired him. He was the best and the fastest racing driver in the world. That's a great quote. And if you think of the people whom we have quoted, singing Vilna of Sprays is over the past hour, it's remarkable. It is. It is. Yeah. And I don't think we'd find anybody to contradict the Meyer. No, indeed. I think that feels like a great place to say and colossally that's history. We've loved. We really have loved looking back at some highlights of Jill Vilna's career. And if he was a driver who was perhaps fairly unfamiliar to you before you heard this podcast, well, we hope we've done a decent job of conveying what this extraordinary driver meant and means still to Formula One. And of course, if you were already a Jill Vilna fan, well, we hope you've enjoyed hearing Richard and me wax lyrical about him for an hour or so. And if you'd like to share your thoughts about Jill or any of the other subjects we've touched on in this series, you can get in touch via podcasts at the hyphen race.com or via social media. I'm @RWilliams1947 and matters @thebishf1. And remember, if you want to enjoy add-free listening or treat yourself to some supremely stylish, colossally merch, there are links to both in the episode description. Yes, there are. And I think that'll do for this week, won't it? So until next time, with thanks, very great thanks to our ace producer, Johnny Reynolds. It's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from him. The Athletic.