Thoughts on SEO & SEO for AI, part 1

Hello and welcome to a new episode of Search Off the Record, a podcast coming to you from the Google search team where we talk all about search and maybe have some fun along the way. My name is John Mueller. I'm a search advocate here at Google Switzerland and today we have Danny Sullivan joining us all the way from over in California. Hi, Danny. Hi, John. It's good to be here. Fantastic to have you here, Danny. You've been active in search for a really long time and I'd love to talk with you a bit about some of the fancy new things that are happening in the world of Search and SEO. So everything kind of around AI or is this like really a new thing? It feels like these fads come and go. Is AI in fad? Like, how do you think? Oh gosh, my favorite thing is we should be calling it LMNOPEO because there's just so many acronyms for it. Is it GEO for generative ingenoptimization or AEO for answering ingenoptimization and AIO? I don't know. There's so many different names for it and you know, I used to write about SEO in search like I did that for like 20 years and pardon me, it's just so relieved. I don't have to do that aspect of it anymore to try to keep up with everything. That people are wondering about. And on the other hand, you still have to kind of keep up on it because we do try to explain to people what's going on. And I think the good news is like, there's not a lot you actually really need to be worrying about. It's understandable. I think people keep having these questions, right? You know, I mean, you see search formats changing, you see all sorts of things happening and you wonder, what is there something new I should be doing? Totally get that. And remember, we, John and I and others, we all came together because we had this blog post, we didn't may, which we'll drop a link to or we'll point you to somehow to it, but it was we were getting asked again and again, well, what should we be doing? What should we be thinking about it? And we all put our heads together and we talk with the engineers and everything else. So we came up with nothing really that different. That's kind of challenging. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, I, again, I think people really see stuff and they think they want to be doing something different. It's a natural reaction. And so the short answer, because we'll do a long answer because we got a podcast or maybe two that will come from what we're doing. But you know, it is the natural reaction you have, but we talked about sort of this north star or the point that you should be heading to and when it comes to all of our ranking systems, it's about how are we trying to reward content that we think is great for people that it was written for human beings in mind, not written for search algorithms, not written for LLM's, not written for LM and OPEO, whatever you want to call it is that everything we do and all the things that we tailor and all the things that we try to improve, it's all about how do we reward content that human beings find satisfying and say, that was what I was looking for. That's what I needed. So if all of our systems are lining up with that, it's, it's that thing about you're going to be ahead of it if you're already doing that. To where as the more you're trying to optimize or GEO, whatever you think it is for a specific kind of system, the more you're potentially going to get away from the main goal, especially if those systems improve and get better, then you're kind of having to shift and play a lot of catch up. So you know, we're going to talk about some of that stuff here with the big caveat, we're only talking about Google, right, that's who we work for. So we don't say what, you know, anybody else's AI search chat, search whatever you want to kind of deal with to kind of go with it from there, but we'll talk about how we look at things and how it works. Yeah. One of the challenging things I noticed when we came out with that blog post, basically saying you don't need to do anything different was that people were hearing all of these things that they had to be doing is like, you have to let your content up or you have to do this, do that and they kind of us going out and saying, well, actually, you don't need to do any of that. I can imagine that for some people that felt a bit like, well, Google just doesn't know, they don't realize like you have to do all of these new things now. Yeah. I think, you know, it's the same thing with the traditional SEO, like you may find something that you discover if I do this one particular thing, maybe I'm getting a little bit more success than I expected, or maybe I'm being successful in ways that were wildly more than I expected, but also I think those things don't tend to last because of what I said before. You win after one specific thing rather than going after the overall goal. So when all the other factors that came into play start to change around and things shift and things improve, then your one little thing that you did before isn't the one little magic trip that whatever it was as you'd to say one little trip and you can usually belly that. Yeah. Except that one little trip was like I needed to eat less and I do like to eat it anyway. Let me, let's start off a week kind of going to this further and like set some definitions and like to me, this is what I've been using when I've I've talked or tried to explain these people. Is that SEO is the practice of improving content for search engines, right? And it's funny, I used to, again, I was outside of Google and people would ask me like, what was SEO, I'm doing all this stuff for Google and I used to be like, now that's not what you do is SEO, like SEO isn't just, I'm going to try to show up in blue links on Google. SEO is you are understanding how people seek information and then you're understanding how that information appears and you're ensuring that you're doing the things that are helping you to be successful, which would even refer to, oh, something gave me a voice response. Well, how did it figure out the voice response? And was there a way for me to represent it or whatever? So I think I did that at a blog post like 2010 or something like that where I wrote about all this sort of stuff. But anyway, those days I hear was a bit darker than, but I think that even as people are going through all this and they're hearing all these different acronyms and they're all trying to figure out what to do, I don't think that the nature of search engines, changing and getting new format changes that the umbrella term remains SEO. And that AEO, GEO, LML and LPEO, whatever you want to call it, to me would be a subset of the SEO. You're focusing on AI formats. Some people do local SEO, right? It's not a different kind of SEO necessarily that's completely removed from it, but there are some things that may be specific to local listings you try to understand it. So I think that one reframing of this is that you understand that there's these new formats and how do they apply into my world of SEO that I'm thinking about? And then are there specific things I do need to be doing or not be to doing for these kinds of formats? But start off with it's still SEO, you know, and it's still kind of the kind of thing that you go with it. Oh, can I do a little tiny little caveat in there too? Okay. Two little ones, sorry, you know, I ran it on a roll long, but one thing, because I don't want to forget this, I should have read a piece of paper right things down along the way. One thing, just a reminder that if you're not an SEO, you didn't do SEO, you don't think about SEO, or you don't even know what that means, great, that's like wonderful. You know, that's, we will, we have, you guys have written, you know, everybody in search central put together a whole guide of SEO to tell people who want to understand from our point of view, things you should think about. But we really just want you to focus on your content and not really worry about this. If your content is on the web and generally accessible as most people's content is, that's it. I've actually been heartened that I've seen a number of people saying things like, I don't want to think about this SEO stuff anymore, I'm just getting back into the joy of writing blogs. I'm like, yes, great, that's what we want you to do. That's where we think you're going to find your most success. That's wonderful. But that said, people didn't ask questions, they want to know so then we, you know, we talked about the SEO stuff. And the other thing is, and I've seen a number of people remark on this, is this concern that, well, I've been doing SEO, but now I'm getting clients or people saying to me, but I need the new stuff, I need the new stuff. And I can't just tell them it's the same old stuff. So I don't know, if you feel like you need to dress it up a bit more, but I think the way you dress it up is to say, these are continuing to be the things that are going to make you successful in the long term. Like I get you want the fancy new type of thing, but the history is that the fancy new type of thing doesn't always sort of stick around if we go off and do these particular types of things. And I on it, but right now the best advice I can tell you when it comes to, you know, how we're going to be successful with our AEO, is it we continue on doing the stuff that we've been doing because that's, that is what it's built on, which, yeah, it's for me to say because I don't know, someone banging on the door and saying, well, actually we do. And so we are doing that. So that's why that's part of the podcast, it's just the kind of reassure that, look, just because the formats are changing, didn't mean you have to change everything that you had to do and that everything you had to shift around. And in fact, that the more that you dramatically shift things around and start doing something completely different or the more that you start thinking I need to do two different things, the more that you may making things far more complicated, not necessarily successful in the long term as you think they are, I'll take a breath now. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think one of the things that perhaps throws SIOs off a little bit is that in the early days, there was a lot of almost like a technical transition where like people initially had to do a lot of technical specific things to make their site even kind of accessible in search. And at some point nowadays, I think if you're using a popular CMS like WordPress or Wix or any of them, basically you don't have to worry about any of those technical details. So it's almost like that technical side of things is a lot less in the foreground now and you can really focus on the content and that's really what what users would are looking for. So it's like that almost like a transition from technical to content side with regards to SIOs. I think that's great. And I think it reminded me also of like again being so old looking back to you know, before Google even existed, I remember we would write about stuff and some there were tools people would use or technique people would use because they would like I'm making a page for altivista, look it up kids, like us, making one for web crawler or making one for open text. And they would like do six different versions of content for six different search engines. And sometimes they did have some very specific types of things that maybe you could be a little more successful. But they weren't that different and it generally wasn't going to be worth that much of an effort for a typical person to kind of go through all that sort of stuff. And then over time, because I think they were all aiming towards the same sorts of things, the differences became less. We also got fewer search engines along the way. But I don't think that takes away from the fact that it didn't continue on that people were constantly making content for typically making content for a specific type of search engines. There are obviously some people who always go to some whatever extremes that they they can. But it wasn't like a typical strategy people would do. Cool. Yeah. So what would you say web creators should focus on nowadays with all of the AI? A key thing is to really focus on the original aspect. Not a new thing. These are not new things beyond search. But if you're really trying to reframe your mind about what's important, I think that one hand, there's a lot of content that is just kind of commodity content, factual information. And I think that the LLM AI systems are doing a good job of presenting that sort of stuff. And it's not originating from any type of thing. So the classic example, as you know, we'll make people laugh. I'm sure it's going to recall it. But, you know, every year we have this little, this little American football thing called the Super Bowl, which is our big event. Everybody gathers around and watches it and, you know, sees what happens between whatever teams are going, whatever. But no one ever can seem to remember what time it's on. So everybody would come in and they do search on Google and they're like, what time is Super Bowl, right? And I think it's always like 330 all across America. We unify on a single time at that point. Every year, it would happen multiple places within all right there. What time does the Super Bowl start in 2011 post? And then they would write these giant, long things and this in the history of Super Bowls before the dinosaurs roamed on Earth. People wondered about time. What is the concept of time? And how does it take us across the universe? Well, and then the Super Bowl will be a 330. Yeah. Easter. So, you know, at some point, we could see enough information. And we have data feeds and everything else that we just kind of said you do a search and we say, the Super Bowl is going to be a 330. And like most people, I think the vast majority of people say, that's a good thing. Thank you for just telling me the type of the Super Bowl. It wasn't super original information. It's a bummer if you were one of the things that was always competing, doing it for that particular day, if you're a little spike in traffic. And maybe you even had to adjust for that month to understand you were going to be getting that much anymore. But I think that is the thing people need to understand is that more this sort of commodity stuff, it isn't going to necessarily be your strength. And I do worry that some people, even with traditional SEO focus on it too much, there are a number of sites I know from the research and things that I've done that get huge amount of traffic for the answer to various popular online word solving games just every day. I'm going to give you the answer to it. And it's like, and that is great until, you know, the system shifter, whatever, and it's common enough or we're pulling it from a feeder, whatever. And now it's like, here's the answer. But that wasn't really your strength as a publication or as a site or whatever. That wasn't your original voice. Your original voice is that thing that only you can provide is your particular take. And so that's what we think was our number one thing when we're telling people is like, this is what we think your strength is going to be, you, as we go into this, this new world, it was already what you should be doing. But this is what you're strength that you should be doing is focus on that original content. I think related to that is this idea that people are also seeking original content that's in, it's authentic to them, which typically means it's a video, it's a podcast because we're talking, say now we're more authentic. Are there posts where they, they can get these firsthand perspectives or whatever? And, and, and you've seen that in the search we've already done where we, we brought in more social, more experiential content, not to take away from the expert takes. It's just that people want that sometimes like you're just wanting to know someone's first 10 experience alongside some, some expert take on it as well. But if you are providing those expert takes, you know, you're, you're doing reviews or whatever, and you've done that in the written form, you still have the opportunity to be doing those in videos and podcasts and so on. Those are other opportunities. So those are things that, again, it's not unique to the AI formats, but they just maybe as you're thinking about how do I reevaluate what I'm doing overall in this era, that these are things you may want to be considering there. I think that makes a lot of sense also because the web, like even without AI, the web has evolved so much that is like there's a lot of this commodity content already out there. And what really sets you apart is kind of that unique voice that you bring in. And when we're talking about something, like the Super Bowl, it's not that we can present a page of search results that are basically all the same thing. So like here's the history of football since the dinosaurs. But people want, on the one hand, they do want to see some generic information, some commodity content, but they also really want to see unique takes and kind of understand what is, what is different or what what has changed or what is kind of a unique take on the situation. Yeah. And I think it maybe helps you learn beyond things too. I suspect that as you're going to see, this is what we're thinking about is if we are presenting the commodity information, but we also want to ensure people are are continuing to be satisfied or learning more or learning things from the open web, then happily point you to things that let you go beyond it. Like, you know, so I don't know it'll be the history of the time of the Super Bowl. Maybe is that sort of history of the Super Bowl or in that particular place, that's the kind of thing we might show alongside it or or why it somehow over time a football evolved from a round spherical object originating in England and somehow managed to turn into this sort of elongated oval like type of thing that is known and it's so popular in the rugby playing countries, but also, you know, if you don't get it, you don't know like American football or football is completely different from football, which is football or soccer or whatever. But anyway, but it's coming home, John, it's coming home. It's coming home. Okay. I think also with regards to authentic content, it feels like that's that's a kind of thing that you can't really artificially create where you can't go out and it's like, oh, I have to write something about the Super Bowl. I will create something authentic and follow this pattern. Well, and I think that's where I always come back when people say, well, how would I do think about this et cetera? I always think about it in terms of social media, right? And now fair enough, there's plenty of social media that's quote, authentic, but it's not really authentic. Like, you know, it's whatever, but there's, it's resonating with people. And I think it's seen that a lot of people who are on social media, once I especially like, they just have something great that they want to share or they they've have a passion about it. And they didn't sit down and think, how am I going to tweak it so that this is super great for, I don't know, Instagram, but not for snap and now for, you know, whatever. Don't get me wrong. I don't make videos. And there's certainly things you can see people are doing, like, I make sure you put in the caption so that I can listen to it me when I don't have my volume on. I'm like, thank you. Everybody who ever just does captions, because I never have the volume on looking at stuff. But even textual posts or whatever, there are, I think there's kind of these technical things you do and things you learn a long way. But the core is you were authentic to people who started following you because you were just authentic. Like, you were speaking to what you were knowledgeable about. And you didn't get lost so much into, how do I manufacture it so much? I think. But, you know, I'm sure there are people out there who will tell me, no, you're so wrong. It's all, yeah, I know, I get plenty of that stuff on threads myself. Only people who were born and lived in the 80s will know what this is. Okay, I tell you what it is. It's a pencil. You used it to rewind a cassette tape, which is the way you still listen to music before we had CDs, which was the way you listen to music before we had MP3s, which was the way you listen to music before we had, you know, streaming. That sounds very multimodal. So they're nice segue. This brings it back to the blog post. We're trying to come up with other things. Like, well, is there anything else we could say? And we said, well, be multimodal. I hate the term multimodal. I just hate it. It says nothing. So like, when I tried to explain to people, it's like, look, you search one way and get information back in the other. So a good example of this was, um, I was walking around, uh, in Portland, and killing some time before I did a talk out there. And I, um, I saw all these geese on the ground, not in the air, but they were on the ground. They were all over the place and they were eating something or doing something. You're poking at the ground. So I did a video of them and then I sent it off to, um, Google conveniently enough because we can do that. You can send a video through the app. And I'm like, what are they doing? And it came back and said, they're eating. What did you think they were doing? All right, I thought it would be a little cooler. But it was like, it did say they're eating grass and stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, at least I knew, but I didn't say anything like I see geese. They are this color. They are in this area. They keep poking their heads at the ground. They're walking. I just like, here's a video. What are they doing? And it came back and gave me a textual response. That was multimodal. It did this search and then it came with a video and came back with the textual response and understood it. I've been doing this all the time now because it's so lazy. I like was clearing up my closets and getting rid of some stuff. And I'm like, just taking pictures of things. I'm like, what is this worth? Hey, I'm at what is this worth? It's like worth nothing. It's road away. Just cleared out. That's worth nothing. Um, or what is this? How do I fix this thing? Like I couldn't even be bothered to type in the name of it. I'm just like, what is it? How do I fix it? Oh, that's that thing. I know. So anyway, to get back to the advice is that like, so we're matching up with things where we can identify other people who have images and video and text along with us. We can put all the stuff together. And so if you have been more textual in nature and you haven't been doing images or video, then by maybe making sure you have more content rich original content, you potentially are going to have opportunities in some of these multimodal search experiences. This isn't just AI specific. It's been again, one of these things had something that you could be thinking of, but it was one of those things like, well, we were all putting our heads together. It was like, yeah, let's let's emphasize that as well, because that's that's something people can focus on that will help them in both of these kinds of areas. So yeah, multimodal. I think it also helps with regards to what is presented to people because on the one hand, you're searching with a video. Other people are searching with text and sometimes a video is a good answer for that. Like, how do I fix this thing? It's not going to be like this wall of text that is on some blog post, but maybe a link to blog posts that has a video embedded. And then you go off to watch that video because it's just, I don't know, maybe an easier way to digest that information. So that feels like something that works both for AI and for normal search. So maybe it's just like SEO. It's almost as an "Oh" in it. It's all the same. That's the unifying. The unifying thing. So what's the best way for sites to kind of make sure that they're hitting this target, that they're doing the right thing? Well, I mean, everybody, everybody's going to be different. So that was the other thing. "Oh, I want to put in a little quick thing." We also match the structured data in there, right? And I think that was another thing where it wasn't like, if you didn't have structured data, that's it. You're done for. No AEI, OP and OG for you. It was more that we looked at that and we thought that could be helpful for that. It's already helpful for other things. And people aren't always thinking about that. So it was more of a think about this along the way, you know, type of thing. Not that that was your secret. Oh, structured data. Now I have it. There I am. AIOs, I own you. But I think the big thing we kind of put at the end was this like, sort of measure your full value. That's what you're asking. How do I know if it's successful? Like, well, we don't know how you know if you're successful. Only you know that you know how you're successful. But sometimes even in this age, people aren't seeming to even define what they're successes beyond. I got a lot of clicks, right? And what we were saying was, well, you probably want to start measuring quality clicks and quality conversions. Like you've got to figure it out for yourself and you've got to determine what makes sense for you or whatever. But the one real thing that we've been finding with these new formats is the people arrive and they seem to be more engaged when they get there. I'd be like, wow, do you know they're more converted? How can you tell? We just do, it's fine. We know. No. We can understand the time of visits or whatever. And so we can understand the spending more time on the sites, which we think is a good proxy for people being more engaged. And then, and I said, I wouldn't talk about, you know, just talk about us. But anecdotally, you've seen plenty of people talk about, I'm getting so many more engaged people from X, AI, form or whatever. And I think that what's happening, if I just personally think it, we think as we look at all this, is it, we think that these formats, we got to need to swing them back around to the formats. I got a whole thing about why, but we think these formats are putting people into a better state of contextual awareness. We think people understand better what they're getting into after they read one of these things. So I think this is common for many people. Certainly it was common for me. You search for something, you don't even know how to search like Billy Eilash that spelled E-Y-E-L-A-S-H. No. People do that. You can try that type in Billy Eilash and we'll correct it for you. You're searching for something you don't even know. I've got to fix something in my house. I don't even know where to begin or what I do with it. So you do a search, you get some results back. Maybe you click on something. You go, that's not really it. You click back. You do another search, click on this. That's not quite it. And as you're learning yourself by doing these searches, you're starting to refine the kind of queries that you're doing. And eventually you get to, the search you should have done for the beginning, you just didn't even know you should be doing it. And then you click onto something. You go, that's it. That's what I'm looking for. You're the one. So I think that these AI formats like speed up that process for people. Query fan out. John, tell me about query fan out. Yeah. Put them on the spot. Oh my god. I think one of the interesting parts about query fan out is basically it does a whole bunch of searches for you. So it's kind of in a way what you were describing before, all of those small incremental searches that you could have done. It does for you. And based on the results that it finds, it puts together an AI answer. Excellent. That's beautiful. Yeah. So, you know, that's why people would get so confused. That's one of the things why we explain, we have a little video that we can point you to as well, but people behind, I did this search, and I wasn't in, I'm in the blue links, but I'm not in the AIO. And it's like, yeah, dude. The search is what the person searched for. But we went beyond that with the AIOs. When all those, as you said, those sort of incremental things. So when you get one of these AIOs, or if you're an AI mode, which I really love myself, well, it's been a lot of time there. But you've gained a lot more context. So you are ending up with the thing that is probably closer to what you want in the first place. So that brings us back to this measuring the full value. If you have been getting a lot of these incremental clicks and they've clicked the way, maybe that was a visit, but maybe that wasn't really a good value to you. Where the people coming in who are converting better might be better prospects. And also, maybe you're not even thinking about how you do the conversions, right? Maybe I've said this for a moment when I used to run a site or two. My number one goal was always to make sure that if you arrive there, you left your email because I wanted to then have this continuing connection that we would be able to then reach out with you whatever. So that was the thing we wanted to do. That was our conversion type of thing. I don't know what everybody else is conversion things or whatever, how they measure it. It's going to be down to you. But this is a shift that people are starting to see and recognize. And if you are trying to think, well, how do I deal with this whole new world of how search is changing? That seems to be one of the things. And that seems to be one of the things you should be looking toward. Have my understanding my conversion better or the things I can do to better take advantage of better converting people and so on. That also seems like something that would be challenging to put into search console because like you said, everyone has a different notion of what they consider a conversion. Yeah. I mean, it's especially for us like in search console, we would have to have all sorts of things hooked up to it. And you'd have this, you know, whatever, whatever. There are different analytic tools that can let you do that. If you want to go into that deep on their way beyond the kind of stuff I deal with, but certainly that's one. However, however you're, however you're doing it, do it. Think more about it. And if you aren't doing it, think more about it with it from there. So I wanted to say one other thing too. This will bring you back to that little detail I wanted to say. So the great things that we've been seeing with the AI formats is that it feels so good to people, I believe, because you're searching the way you wanted to search in the beginning, which just hadn't really had the technology for it. So I had to track this down. Brian Pinkerton was like the guy behind web crawler. And he has this classic metaphor, which I may have been the first person to write about. I can't, I can't pin it down exactly, but I can remember and I found when I talked of this like in 1996 or so. But I'm like, this is back in the days. I'm like, what are search engines? How do they work for people? I'm trying to explain it. And he was saying, like, you know, one of the challenges we have a search engine as web crawler, but in general is that it's like someone walks into a library and they say, travel. That's that was the state of search, right? And it still is in some ways. People give you one or two words. And then he's like, librarian would turn to you and say, well, okay, that's nice. Did you want to travel anywhere in particular? Are you interested in the history of travel? Are you wanting to go on a boat on a plane? A train? You know, the library would engage in conversation with you. Kind of get these information from you. If you will, do all those queries that you would kind of do. And then say, here are some things that might be helpful to you. And he was saying, but search engines can't do that. And then over time, they, they tried to come with proxies for it. So if you were to search for pizza on us today, we would understand first all your location and the location of things related to you. And we probably would show you, you know, local pizza places without you having to say, I want local pizza places because we're going to guess that maybe you're hungry. Maybe you want to order pizza. So you want it from a local place. If there had been a pizza eating contest recently that had gotten worldwide attention, because Mama Mia, that was a lot of pizza, someone ate. And we could see a spike in that kind of news content. Then potentially, we would show you top stories because like, oh, they're probably interested in that pizza eating thing that's happened. And we, the contextual clue is there. If you had just done a lot of searches for recipes, potentially we could understand from your short term personal, you know, recent searches. Okay, well, maybe show some pizza recipes that are in there because this person's wanted to make it themselves. So those, but they still gases. And now it's like, you could have these conversations. You can, and you're starting to realize you can just start off with the conversation where you can go in and say, I want to make a pizza. Can you tell me the kinds of stokes that would be useful for me to use if I want to do it in my backyard or garden or whatever, and go from there. And you can do the follow up conversations ago with it. So I think that we're getting to this more natural way of searching the way you probably would have wanted to search way back when. And it's cool because if it re-energizes people to want to search, then, you know, hopefully everybody's being successful along the way. I think it probably makes it a little bit challenging for those that want to track all of these things because when everyone goes to search engine and just says pizza, you see a big number for that query. Whereas if people ask very specific questions around pizza, then that's kind of hard to to aggregate. So it seems like that might be a direction where, I don't know, in the future, things like search console or other tools might need to expand to better understand. Well, they searched this really long thing, but they were looking for a pizza recipe. Yes. This will be part of the challenge in terms of how we're taking in feedback and also just trying to understand how you do evolve the kinds of tools because, you know, you get really, really long complicated queries. This goes back to the kind of SEO, mental space that people may have started with. And it's understandable, but they would use various tools over the years to understand what we're popular, things people were searching for, what were specific terms. And sometimes way in the path that was really important because you would be like, oh, am I trying to be found for this word or that word? Well, which is the more popular way people describe it? Am I trying to be found for generative engine optimization or answer engine optimization? Well, let me track which is more popular. And then I'm going to make sure I write using that thing all along. But then over time, you know, search has just got smarter. And they're like, yeah, I know you didn't use the exact word, but guess what? Sometimes we can figure all that stuff out. And you didn't have to be a specific, but still some of that memory muscle stays and all those sorts of things. So I'm going to run back to the keyword tool. I'm going to try to understand it. But now what do you do? Like when people are doing like entire sentences? Well, obviously, you've got to start optimizing for the entire sentence. So right now, make a page for every possible sentence that someone might know. Don't do that, please. It's come back to that grounding of, well, what is the general thing that you're trying to write about? And then again, are you writing it in a way that a human being would expect it to be written for them? And that's what you should do. Cool. Well, that was it for this episode. It was great talking about all of the different aspects that kind of play a role with regards to SEO and AI being a part of that. Also talking a little bit about some of the things that you can do. If you want to optimize or focus on kind of the new things around SEO, making sure that you're creating something original, authentic, that you're thinking multimodal despite you not liking that word. And thinking about different ways that you can measure your success online. Thank you for joining us here, Danny. Thanks for having me, John, look forward to talking next week. Thank you all for listening in and goodbye. We've been having fun with these podcast episodes. I hope you, the listener, have found them both entertaining and insightful too. Feel free to drop us a note on LinkedIn or chat with us at one of the next events that we go to if you have any thoughts. And of course, don't forget to like and subscribe. Thank you and goodbye.