Thought Load: Overthinking, Overfunctioning & Exhaustion with Liane Davey | 413

[MUSIC] I am Nicole Khalil and you're listening to the This is Woman's Work podcast, we're together. We're redefining what it means, what it looks and what it feels like to be doing woman's work. And today, we're going to talk about a byproduct and unfortunately, a very common experience that we need to get a handle on as we're out there doing woman's work. And it's not just our workload, it's our thought load. The invisible tabs open in our brains at all times, the mental gymnastics, the contingency planning, they're remembering, anticipating, smoothing over, managing reactions, preparing for worst case scenarios, replaying conversations we haven't even had yet. It's the running list of groceries and deadlines and team dynamics and whether that quick slack message sounded too direct. It's the emotional labor, mental load, worry work, we do at home, and it's corporate cousin, the same chaos with a different dress code. We've talked a lot culturally about the mental load women carry, but often reserve it for the work we do inside the home, the second shift, the invisible labor, that if we don't think about it, no one else will phenomenon. But we don't talk nearly enough about how that exact same background processing follows us into work. Because unfortunately, our overactive brains do not care which room we're standing in. And here's the really infuriating part, the more competent you are, the more thought load you're probably dealing with. Because capable women have become the human drunk drawer for far too many organizations. Need someone to catch the thing everyone else missed? Ask her. Manage the tension on the team, she's got it. Remember the birthday, the deadline, the client preference, the emotional tone of the meeting, and whether Bob from finance seemed off today? Perfect. Give it to the competent woman who not only already has her own full plate, but is somehow expected to keep everyone else's spinning too. And we wonder why women are burned out? Why productivity feels just out of reach? Why were exhausted despite our color-coded calendar as efficiency hacks and enough water bottles to hydrate a small village, but no actual time to pee? Maybe the problem has nothing to do with time management. Maybe the problem is we're managing too much, mentally, emotionally, and cognitively, all at once, inside of systems that reward overfunctioning and call it being a team player. So today, we are talking all about that thought load. Joining us is Leanne Davy, known as the team work doctor who has spent more than 25 years helping teams and leaders work more effectively together. She's a New York Times best-selling author, leadership advisor to 26 Fortune 500 companies and counting, and the author of the new book Thought Load, managed the madness and free your team to do great work. Her work has helped many organizations tackle burnout, dysfunction, and the hidden dynamics that are keeping teams stuck. So, Leanne, I imagine that every woman listening in knows all about this thought load, but before we talk about how to manage it, can you define what it actually is and why it's become such a massive issue in the way that we both work and live? Yeah, absolutely. Before I do that, can I just say that is the best description I have ever heard, and I want to just take your intro and make it the forward to the second edition. So I'm coming back to you when the second edition comes up. I will gladly send it to you right after. I love replaying conversations we haven't had yet. Yes, yes. OK, what is Thought Load? Thought Load is the invisible tax on both our performance and our presence that comes from this treacherous triad of rising cognitive demands. How much we're expected to pay attention to both home and work things all at once. Secondly, the increasing emotional burdens, our own anxiety, our own emotional inner life, plus what we're trying to carry for our family, for our co-workers, for our girlfriends, for our parents. And then that's the load, so the cognitive demands of the emotional burdens, all carried with declining energy reserves. So that's how those three things, and the problem is the neuroscience of those three things are that each one of those problems amplifies and exacerbates the others. And every person who's listening knows exactly what I mean. Yeah, you just put words on our everyday existence, right? Which is a little scary. You say in the book that more often than not, it's the high achieving women who carry a lot of these invisible responsibilities. Why is that? And why are we taking it on? Yeah, I think because we've been rewarded for that, we've gotten the gold star for that since we were little. So anybody who's an older sister knows they got the gold star for making sure there's siblings. We're all happy or fed or whatever else. Remember coming home one day, my elder daughter was four, and her baby sister was not one yet. And she, my husband was ill, and there she was on the stoop feeding her sister a bottle. And she just looks at me and says, is this right, mummy? And of course, I lavished huge praise on her because her dad was sick, and so she's taking care of her little sister. But at four, she was getting gold stars for worrying about everybody else. A four-year-old's husband's half to worry about that. So all the way through. And then I think, you know, high achieving women have this phenomenal capacity. It is truly remarkable the capacity that they have. And so they're, first of all, more attuned to all the things that could benefit from them adding value. They're more empathetic and care more about doing that. You know, all of those things, we've been both genetically, but also in what we've been socialized to do, rewarded for caring for the whole pack. It reminds me of a belief that I've long had that is whatever our greatest strength is often becomes our biggest weakness because we over rotate so hard on that strength or we rely on it so heavily that we don't have any barometer or any measurement for when we've over rotated or gone too far. So that leads to my next question, which is, how do we for ourselves with ourselves find that line? Obviously, we want to leverage our strengths. Obviously, it makes us good at what we do when we take our experiences, our talents, our unique abilities and apply them to whatever it is that we're doing. But then how do we not tip over into the place where it becomes a weakness? Yeah. So I would say the place to start is by focusing your distracted attention. So here's a way I ask the question. So many people I see jump in to start helping on something. And the question that they're asking themselves is, could I add value here? And the answer for most of us is, yeah, I could add value here. And so that question is useless. Like everything you sort using that question or 99% of what you sort using that question ends up in the pile, yes. So that's not a helpful sorting question. The better question is, can I add unique value here? Is this value that only I can add? Is this something that needs me? And that pile split is going to be much, much more balanced. So I think about that. So focusing on what is the most important outcome that I am trying to create in my work with my role? What's my organization? What are my customers or stakeholders counting on me to do? What's the most important way that I need the world to be different? If I'm doing things well, start there and then say, all right, then what are the most important things I need to produce to move the needle in that direction? And then what are the most important things I need to do? And the problem is, as women, and not just as women, all of us are too focused on activities. Just what was the next email that came in? Can I get this thing off my to-do list? When you focus on activities, all you become is busy. When you shift to focusing on outputs, which most people think is an improvement, it is a bit of an improvement. Did I shift the code? Did I send the report? You shift from being busy to being productive, but unfortunately being productive is a trap. And it means we're pumping out a ton of stuff without asking, did any of that work move the needle on this outcome? So the first thing that we need to do for sure is to start with what's the most important outcome that my organization is counting on me to accomplish and how do I work backwards from there instead of hoping that if I do enough activities, the world will change the way I hope it would. So that's one. The second is to say, also be much more fussy about which outcomes for other people you agree to help with. And yes, you should be helping with some people's important quests. Absolutely, but not all of them. Not all of them can you add unique value on. But all of them is the best use of your time. And then what side quests do I have to do as a good organizational citizen? So that's another big tip. Big, big tip is don't have one to do list. If you have one to do list and high thought load, You pick what to do on that list based on who's the scariest person attached to one of those things. Oh, I'm gonna do that because he's gonna yell at me if I don't do that. That's not a good reason to choose. Or you choose based on, okay, what email came in most recently. So if we can get to understanding what's my quest? What's one or two really important quests for other people that I need to contribute on? And what are the side quests I absolutely have to do? And then how do we have three separate party lists? So we don't give up our list in service of helping everyone else be successful. So we need to change our framing now. - Okay, there is a lot of really good things in there. And I think things that sort of fly in the face of what we hear out there a lot, like busyness, productivity, again, as you said earlier, gets rewarded a ton. And so it's really hard to untangle ourselves from that. I do love the shift of the question, can I add unique value here? But I'm gonna be fully transparent as a high achieving person. - Yeah. - That I think sometimes our egos get in the way of that question. - Yeah. - Because I think we think often we're the only or the best. If I want it done right, I gotta do it myself. And so I worry, and I liked that you added to this, but is there a secondary question that triggers what you were talking about, which is does this actually matter, right? So can I add unique value here? And is this aligned with what matters most? Some version like that. - Yeah, I put the matters most first. - Yeah. So put the matters most, so I have a way to triage any kind of request. So first is it important? So will this activity move the needle on something that matters? That's the first question. Because if the answer is no to that, it doesn't matter if it's you or anybody else, it just shouldn't be done if the answer is no, right? Second, is it urgent? Would waiting either reduce the opportunity or increase the threat? If not, why am I doing this now, right? Third, is it unique to me? That's the unique value question. Because if it doesn't need to be done or it doesn't need to be done now, it doesn't need to be me. And then the fourth question is it essential, which is work tends to bloat. Reports is a great way to think about this. For the report used to have five data points, used to go out like once a quarter. And people, somebody's boss asked for some other number two years ago. And so now that's always in there. And then this other thing from another day, work bloats and just gets bigger. Now that reports monthly and it's taking you six hours a month. So the last question is, if could I do 50% of that and get all of the value as doing 100%. So yeah, that triage, is it important? Is it urgent? Is it unique to me and is it essential? We can use that to hopefully get our ego out of the way. The other thing that helped me, this is not my line, but that really helped me with the ego thing and not investing my time and energy and things that were not unique to me was just this image. You can't climb a ladder unless you're willing to let go of something. And I often picture that. I'm like, am I trying to get higher on the ladder? But refusing to let go of doing this, chairing this meeting that used to be great in my career, but now is leaving me kind of stuck down there. So that image of all the silly metaphors and motivational things, that image for me has been really helpful. I have to let go of that ring if I'm gonna reach that hand higher. - I absolutely love that image and it's so good because I believe that our focus needs to be less, even though everything around us tells us more. And so in order to do less, we have to let go of more. And that visual is just really helpful. So my next question, and I also wanted to throw out when you were talking about, can I do this at 50%. I call that strategically half-assing things. - Yes. - Like are there certain things that like if I just half-ass it, it's good enough. Is it good enough, right? - Yeah. - So my question I'm trying to get to is, how many things actually matter? Because I think we're lying to ourselves. We think 100 things matter when the reality is, at the end of the day, probably only three things. Or like I've been trying to narrow my focus and put things under specific containers so that I can ask myself, is this gonna directly impact these three things that actually matter? - Right. - And if the answer is no, then the answer is no, or at least not now or not yet. - Right. - What do we narrow our definition of what actually matters? - Yeah. So it's really about, and sometimes it's playing the game of the different layers, right? So it's really easy to say revenue, right? Like we could always put revenue as an outcome. That might, depending on your role, really work for you. It might be way too far out there, and that might not be your job. You might be in marketing and your job might be to increase foot traffic or something like that. So what is the most important thing? But if we're thinking about revenue, you could probably think of a hundred things that are going to increase your company's revenue. But back to your question, which ones really matter? Which is the leading indicator? What's the first outcome I need to get? Because that's gonna set us on the right path. So using a variety of different questions to help you distill to, and I would say probably for the quarter is about the right spot to be focused. This quarter, the most important thing we can be focused on is this. And it is by going all the way out to those ultimate business performance things. Maybe your company is just about new users. We're getting started. We just need new users. Okay, so we need signups. There's no money attached to it. We just want user count. Okay, what are the three outcomes this quarter? That are going to be associated with that, right? You know, whatever. And influencer talks about us. We get X number of interactions on our Instagram posts, whatever. But figuring out for yourself, what is it? What are the key things this quarter, the outcomes? I can't control outcomes, but these are the things I'm watching to see if my work is having impact. Sorry to break in, but this part matters. Rate the show, share it, and support the sponsor. So I can keep making episodes worth interrupting you for. Okay, great advice. And how do we take that from our activities into our brains? I can say that I am focused on these three things this quarter because they directly correlate in our lead indicators for what matters most. And sometimes my brain doesn't agree. And it starts going off into what if, and I should do this, and this person's doing that, and why am I behind my brain? Yeah. Did not get the memo of doing less and simplifying. So how do we translate? Yeah. So there's probably two pieces of that. So there's all of the time management that says, these are my outcomes. I would say the first thing to increase accountability on that is have that conversation with your manager. You know, I'm really trying to make sure my energy is going to the most important things. This is what I've come up with as the most important things. What are your thoughts? Would you have any suggestions, tweaks, whatever? So that's one good mechanism for if now if your manager's going to be paying attention to the same scorecard, that's going to be really helpful. Then getting that into your priorities in order, one, two, three, this is the first output I need to create. This is the second. And share that with somebody. How do you, again, foster accountability for yourself that you've shared that? Then how are you going to put that into your calendar? So if you've said, this is the number one output and you open your calendar and the only places in your calendar where you're going to make any progress on that or after the kids go to bed. And I think Saturday morning, I have some time while the kids are at soccer. If that's where your most important output is, your calendar is not doing you any favors. So lock it into your calendar. So there's a lot of time management pieces to it. But it sounds like the other piece that's coming up for you in your example is a more emotional piece. Am I doing enough? Do I have imposter syndrome? And am I all of those things? So I would say in that case, you have to switch to the second part of the book, which is how do I process some of these triggered emotions? Because as much as you've got a beautiful plan, if that nasty narrator in your head is telling you, it's not enough. It's not like it won't get you there. Then all the time management in the world is not going to help you. So I'd say, OK, we got to go and work on processing that emotion to pieces of the solve. I call the voice in my head that does that stuff head trash, because I want it to sound as dirty and disgusting as it actually is. But they go hand in hand, the thought load and the head trash. Yeah, head trash is a key component of thought load. Yeah. And I'm glad you separated them because totally different things that are happening and probably need different focuses or solutions. And I want to circle back on where you started with the-- having the conversation with your manager, it was the example. But what it brought to my mind is often where I think we spend a lot of our energy in head trash is in the unknown and worrying about what other people are thinking or other people's perspectives or perceptions or whatever. Like, did I do this? Or am I that enough? And if we can have these conversations with the people who matter, and we can get on the same page, I think that gives us the opportunity to quiet the noise and limit. the unknown. Like we're not sitting there wondering in this case, does our manager notice or care that I'm doing this? We know because we have the conversation. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's just a whole bunch of head trash that goes out in the disposal or gets compacted when you know, oh, my boss really loved that. First of all, my boss loved that I took accountability and initiative to map out the outcomes. That, you know, when I came in with that, it was the old, don't come with a problem come with a solution. So I got a gold star for that. And there were some tweaks. So my boss loved the chance to put their fingerprints on it a little bit and make sure it was like all of that. And now I feel like we're both measuring with the same yardstick, right? That just reduces so because you know what, your teammates probably haven't done that. So they're toiling away, doing a bunch of activity, not, not likely to get the same kind of reward and recognition you are because they're just maybe if I do enough stuff, the boss will think I'm great. Yeah. We hear a lot about time management. I talk about choice management because I think time is fixed and neutral. And so what we're really managing are the choices we make of the time that we have. In your book, you talk about managing attention. Talk to us about that. So what does it look like in real life? Yeah. So the problem is I agree with you. We all talk about, well, if only I had more time. I'm like, who has that? It's short of her, am I any stranger with her time turner? But other than that, you know, nobody has more time than you do. But what's interesting is so many people I see who have, they've carved out 90 minutes to make progress on something important. And then I watched what they do with that 90 minutes and they fritter it away. The most positive case example is, okay, I need to get this report done. So I sit down to work on it and I go, oh, I needed that thing, Marcia sent me. So I'm going to open my email to get the thing from Marcia. Oh, another email from, so let me respond to that. And and then 10 minutes later, you come back to the task. Oh, let me keep going again. Oh, right. I needed to look that thing up on chat GPT. And I ask it a question. And it gives me five options. Would you like me to do this or this or this or this and all of a sudden? So that one hour of time, which as you say is the fixed resource, leads to something very differently depending on whether your attention is locked in on accomplishing what you need to accomplish or whether it is just diluted across so many different things. So yeah, we want to manage our attention and our energy because what we get out of that hour. And that's why the problem is when your thought load is very heavy, you will have a real hard time getting through your workload because that one that same hour that somebody else had, you get almost nothing done in that hour because stuff is weighing on you. Yeah. Okay. So as you were sharing that example, another one popped into my head that I think is pretty common because as we have this thought load, one of the things we often do is think about other people, how they're doing, how they're feeling, what they need, you know, those types of things. And the way that that ends up playing out very often in real life is we become the go to for everybody's problems, everybody's questions. The do you have a minute, right? When you're 90 minute, and you're supposed to be focused on this thing and somebody pops their head in and do you have a minute? And then they ask you a question they could have very easily found with a quick search. And what am I Google? Like, yeah, totally. But I think we also need to be responsible for how often we create that situation, how often we enable it. Sure. It's nice to be needed. Yes. It makes us feel good when we're the ones with the answers and everybody comes to us. And then we don't get anything done because everybody needs us and we have all the answers. So I guess my question is how do we break that pattern? Yeah. So you can do it in the simplest way by creating some better boundaries, right? So I'm not a fan of the open door policy because what it says is that my attention doesn't matter, right? You can distract my attention any time. And that just doesn't show boundaries for us, doesn't show that we respect our own outcomes we're trying to create. And that just models that for everybody else. So close the door, have time, or if you're in an open space, I used to work in a big open space. So you had noise cancelling headphones. They're like if the headphones are on, that means do not disturb, right? And someone comes and you can use the triage like is it urgent? Just say is it urgent? Because I would love to sit and have lunch with you and hear this story or I'm going to take a break in about 45 minutes. I want to take a quick walk and grab a cup of coffee. So it doesn't mean that we can't be helpful good team players needed any of those things. It just says that we are managing our attention. The other thing is if you try and help that person while your brain is still processing that important piece of work you're trying to do you're not going to be as valuable to them either. So making sure that you've actually set the boundary and said you know if we go for a walk in 45 minutes, I'll be all yours, right? That sort of thing. So that's one. I think a second one is really asking yourself the hard question about do these conversations? When somebody pokes their head in the door, that's one thing. It's when they perch their right butt cheek on your desk. You're like, oh, this is like this. And asking yourself, is that conversation actually creating emotional contagion for me that makes me less effective for the whole rest of the day? And that's something you want to ask because when we think about our energy reserves, you know, we're constantly trying to renew our energy and there may be a relationship or a person. If they're coming and gossiping to you, if they're telling you about the same woe as me story that they've told you four times before and you've given them lots of ideas for how to do something constructive and they never have. At some point you also have to ask yourself, does the boundary need to be a bit more impermeable? Does the boundary need to be something like, you know what? We've had this conversation four times. I've given you all that I've got. I want to move on or I don't want to go there anymore. Something like that. So it could be something as little as just where is the time? When is the time that I can give you my full attention? Just sort of managing it or it might be, you know what? This is not working for me. This is making me feel crappy. This is, you know, depleting my energy. So sometimes our boundaries need to be a little bit firmer. Yeah, it's interesting. All of that is great advice. And I'll also add if everybody's coming to you with their complaints, with their drama, with their gossip, I would argue that that is a really good sign that people don't see you as a leader. That's a great point, right? You're the den mother, you're the safe person, which probably means that there is very little accountability associated with you. Right. Also, one of the things I tell myself because we've been trained to be others focused and so it helps me is it's I'm not doing them a service. If I fix and solve or I'm not teaching them how to do any of these skills, I'm not developing them in any way if I just do it for them. And so the way I kind of help myself feel better about boundaries is like I'm doing them a service too. Not just me. Yeah, I always say like if you want to get involved with something, ask yourself, especially something where you're just saying, well, just this time, just this time, I'll help. Like this counts with your kids as well. Ask yourself, how could I deal with this this time to make it less likely? There'll be another time, right? So if the kid forgets their lunch and calls you at work to say, I need my lunch, how can I behave this time that will make it less likely they ever forget their lunch again? And I think a lot of us just go solve the problem in the moment, you know, rearrange our afternoon schedule, go home, get the lunch, take the lunch, which makes zero impact in how likely it is that they'll forget their lunch again, right? And we do that with colleagues as well. So sure I can help you with this thing, but how am I going to help you this time that makes it much less likely they'll be another time? So what would you say to the person who's like great? And I'm worried that if I set boundaries or communicate the importance of my attention, that people see me as unavailable or cold or disengaged, I got the feedback in my career early on that I was unapproachable. And there were lots of reasons for that and there was some truth to it, but some of it was just I had too much to do and I wasn't available for everybody to come by and you know, talk about their weekends or whatever. So what would you say to the person who's worried about a perception shift if they start to hold the boundaries? You already talked about managing choices, right? You're managing a choice there. So if your choice is, do I want to be the approachable one, the dead mother, the whatever? And I'm afraid of a perception shift there. Well, am I looking for the perception shift to I'm more of a leader? I'm more strategic. I have greater executive presence. You can't get the perception shift to the positive thing you want unless you're willing to allow you can't climb a ladder unless you're willing to let go of something. So do you want to be the strategic person, the person who's really achieving and whatever else? You have to be willing to let go of this is the safe dumping ground for for all of my emotional baggage, right? So I would say don't be afraid of that choice, but then be strategic and make good choices about things like saying, you know what? Friday is my peers lunch, right? Let I really work hard. I'm just as serious about boundaries to make sure I protect that lunch with my team every Friday, and that's a great place where we can catch up here about each other's kids or their weekends or whatever else. So be intentional about the perception shift you do want, particularly in focusing on what you want it to go toward, be willing to process what it's gonna shift away from, and then be deliberate about the activities that you think are still really great for connection, for caring, for empathizing, all those things. So yeah, we have to make hard choices, but I think those are choices that are worth making. - Like a light bulb went off for me, especially as it relates to thought load, how much energy we spend worrying about how we don't want to be perceived as opposed to how we do what's most important. What do I wanna present? How do I want to impact focusing on what we want versus what we don't? It is a really great shift, and we'll definitely help with our thought load. So my last question is when the thought load, when you feel buried, when it's heavy and hard, and you know you're in it, any tips, go take 10 deep breaths. I don't know, what do we do when it's happening? Okay, my favorite chapter in the book is called Do More Nothing. So it comes from many years ago I was watching a Michael Pauline documentary on Netflix called Cooked, and he's talking about different ways that you can cook food. So he tells the story about bread, and he said, "You could eat all the flour and drink all the water that you could get your hands on and soon after you would starve to death. But if you mix the flour and the water and left them exposed to the air, you could bake that into bread that would sustain you indefinitely." And I had this epiphany while I was watching it. I'm like, "That's me. I am starving. I'm drinking water from a fire hose. I'm absolutely choking on flour, all the input, but what's missing is any air. There is no air." So I created a discipline for myself called Do More Nothing, a two week cleanse. And the good thing about this cleanse is that you have to drink juice or anything like that. But you do this cleanse, which is to find chunks of 45 minutes to an hour with zero input. I did this just yesterday. I had a meeting and instead of driving, I walked to the meeting with no podcast, no music, no nothing. Just the chance to make sure that I was actually letting things process at the end of that 45 minute walk so much more energy. It could be a bath, it could be gardening or baking. It doesn't, driving in the car with no radio on. It doesn't matter what it is. What you'll find is that if you do more nothing, you get the thought load comes way down as you're able to turn that flower and water it. Everything in your brain pantry, that very full brain pantry into nourishing things that will energize you. So that's my best tip when you're really when the thought load is really high. And it's very counterintuitive because normally, we want to do more. The most important thing you can do to restore yourself in high thought load, do more nothing. Okay, awesome. Leanne, I know I'm not just speaking for myself. I'm sure we all could do a better job managing our thought load. So I'm going to remind you, the listener, to go get the book. It's called Thought Load. And it's available wherever you buy books, but let's keep our local bookstores in business. And you can also find out more about Leanne and her book on Thoughtload.com. We'll put all the ways to find and follow Leanne, including social media in show notes. Leanne, thank you for an important topic and a great conversation. Thanks so much to go. My pleasure. Okay, friend, here's the deal. Thought Load thrives in silence. In the unspoken expectations, in that I'll just do it myself moments. In systems that reward the people most willing to absorb the chaos with a smile. And listen, just because we can carry it doesn't mean we should. And maybe the strongest, most powerful thing any of us can do is stop glorifying over functioning and start questioning the systems and the people that depend on it. Because imagine for just a second, what would happen if we quieted the noise, created space, refocused our energy if we did more nothing. Imagine what women would create contribute and become. And I want that for you. I want that for us. Because that should be what it looks like and what it feels like to be doing. Woman's work. (upbeat music)