THORChain Hangout: EdgeWallet with Paul Puey - THORChain Spaces #163

How do I sound, thumbs up? If you sound good, man. Can you hear me? - Yeah, I can hear you just fine. You sound amazing as well. Welcome everybody. Give everyone a second to pile in. Please share the space. I am so excited for today's space. We got a really good friend coming in to talk with us. Very early, probably one of the earliest contributors of Thorchain. I'll talk more about that in a second when they're here. But let's get this introduction out of the way guys. So welcome one at all. Thorchain is the first decentralized exchange to swap real Bitcoin. And now you can use every Bitcoin wallet in the world and you don't have to connect it to a website. Same with ETH, XRP, BNB, Trone Doge, and more basically the layer ones. Real layer ones on Thorchain. And eventually you'll be able to swap any token from any wallet. Thorchain is turning into a full layer one liquidity engine where apps can be built on top of it. The new app layer we have, Rijira, Unlocks, Lending Purps, Bitcoin Backstable Coin, Token Launchpad, NFT, Prediction Markets, and much more. Thorchain isn't just a decentralized exchange as becoming the protocol of pure unsensual liquidity, LFG. Swapping on Thorchain is permissionless. There is no KYC. Anyone in the world can use it. And to swap on Thorchain, go to Thorchain.org and click on swap. New features and functionality will be added to the website over the next few months. If you encounter any issues whatsoever, there's an email button you can pack to make a ticket for help. Thorchain's token is called Rune. That is spelled R-U-N-E. You do not need to buy or hold a rune to place a swap on Thorchain. But the fees are deducted from your swap, are used to buy rune. And this is the rune that yield that goes to liquidity pools and notes. There are no block rewards on Thorchain. 100% of the yield is real. And Thorchain is currently deflationary at 5% of the revenue being burned. If you hold a rune on a centralized exchange, what are you doing? You need to withdraw into self-custy because those tokens can be used to short sell rune and drive the price down on us, right? And once in self-custy, look into bonding your rune to a note to earn some yield and help secure the network, which can also help the rune price go up. A really great site to do that is runebon.com. Very easy. All you have to is find a node, request a whitelist, and bond your rune. And talking about bonding your rune guys and node operators, there is a really great node operator. And there's other ones. RuneTard, he is helping node operators become into existence. And so if you have some technical skill, some Kubernetes skills, or if you are interested in learning, you want to take that challenge, we will help you. So please reach out to RuneTard. You can reach out to me, Kenton. I was a lot of people who can reach out. We will get you the materials you need. We recently just added a couple of new node operators to the network. We want to keep this going. We need to improve the decentralization of Thorchain. So please reach out. We will get you going. RuneTard is @RuneTard, R-U-N-E Tard on Twitter. Silly name, but a great man. Don't doubt it. Thorchain also has another token called TCY. This token is kind of like a preferred stock. We're 10% of the protocols revenue goes to these token holders. If you deposit crypto into Sabers or took out a loan on Thorchain, make sure to claim your TCY token so you can start collecting this yield and anyone can buy the TCY token on Thorchain.org as well. There's a Thorchain Community Discord and Telegram. You can learn all about Thorchain to make all kinds of friends to find the links. Go to @ForCommunityAccountOnX. Guys, this space is geared towards anyone on your Thorchain journey where you're an OG or your brand spent canoe. There will be something for everyone here. And if anyone has any questions, this is an open stage. Of course, we do take audience participations. We do have Paul in the house. I don't know if he's a speaker yet. Sometimes his bug will get him up here. But just a quick introduction, guys. I had the pleasure of meeting Paul in real life. And he's a great guy. He's one of the earliest contributors to Thorchain. Fantastic. Back when Thorchain was just a baby. And when we were trying to get new integrations on Edge, what was one of the first? This is before Trustwall. This is before all the major ones. And Paul and his team were absolutely instrumental in teaching us how we should approach new wallets, new interfaces to get Thorchain added. We've learned a lot. We were very young in those days. We've come a long way. And I'm so glad that Paul is here with us. I'm going to go ahead and join his co-host here one second. All right. I think we got it here. Excellent. So we'll go ahead and get Paul up here. Sometimes X glitches. OK, he is a speaker. I'm going to go ahead and kick it to Kenton for an introduction. And then we'll go to Paul. Go ahead, Kenton. Yeah, thanks, Ben. My name is Kenton Ralph Toes. I have a fund that invests in a room. It runs nodes on the network. So I'm a bond provider and node operator on Thorchain. And I'm also running Thorchain's marketing team. And I've been busy working on that here the last few months. Yeah, I think that's good for me. Paul, do you want to give yourself a quick introduction for everyone? All right, you might check to start, I guess. I can you guys hear me? I can't hear Paul. I can hear you, Kenton. So I had to run away from the computer for a second. I can hear you. Paul, you can check your mic. Maybe we'll drop them back down and bring them back up. Yeah, I had to-- I couldn't see him request as a speaker. I had to go try to ask him to be a speaker. All right, how's that? Oh, there we go. Yep, good old spaces. Oh, I know. When they're speaking on your not, yep. It's so true, it's terrible. How are you doing, Paul? We long can send rockets to Mars, but we can't actually reliably speak to each other. But, oh, well, here we are. Yeah, no, I'm doing great. Happy Saturday, everybody. Thanks for having me on the spaces. Yeah, man. Love having you, dude. And for those who don't know, please, guys, get Paul a follow, follow Edge wallet, right? These guys are our friends, OK? Thanks so much, yeah. My protocol, Alex, he said something very interesting. He was on a Monero space. I think was yesterday of the day, poor, can I remember? Too many things going on in my life, I'm a crazy person. But he said something very interesting. And I really liked it. He was talking about Monero, of course. But it's all these defy people, all these defy protocols where you're a wallet or you're a protocol like Thorchain. We are essentially all doing-- we all have the same mission. We were just approaching that mission from different angles. And we're all meeting in the middle. And I really feel like we're getting to that point. Let's say you, Paul, what's your idea on that? Yeah, we are. And definitely not to go right into what we've been trying to do. But we're all trying to get to economic freedom. I think that's where Monero, that's where Thorchain is. We're getting to censorship resistance. And I like that you mentioned that we're trying to take it from multiple angles, because you realize that as humans, we're all different people. And especially from an interface point of view and how we want to interface with technology, we're going to be looking for and also resonating with different interfaces and different products. And so we're taking it from one angle. Some of our competitors are taking it from another. And there's no way to get that 90, 99% adoption without a good handful of options. Now, will there be hundreds or thousands probably not? Maybe there'll be a dozen or a couple dozen. But we're refining what are those different methods and interfaces and experiences that the masses need in order to drive the adoption of that end goal that we all care about. And so we're going to take it with one angle, happy to go into the details as the spaces evolves onto what's nuanced and different about what we're doing. But you're right. We are trying to achieve that same goal. And there's going to be a bit of a battle. And there's going to be competition. There's going to be co-opitation and whatnot. But you're right. And at the end of the day, I think, for those of us that are truly principled, we just want to see that goal achieved, whether it's with what we're individually contributing to and building, or what other people are building. But we just want to get to that end goal. Because that is why Bitcoin originally, when it was built, and crypto as a whole, why it's compelling in the first place. There's obviously some aspect of number go up. But number go up wouldn't have been the only reason why there is literally a crypto conference, just every single day of the year. Number go up wouldn't be the only reason it had to be something compelling about the technology and what's compelling about it is that aspect of truly disintermediating and bringing that freedom to transact to all of us. Absolutely. Patriot, do you mind if I jump in? Yeah, go ahead, brother. I'm glad we kind of jumped into economic freedom. And I like to maybe just kind of, for Paul, not everyone's familiar with your edge wallet, and kind of take it back to the beginning and your journey into crypto starting edge wallet. And I'm assuming it starts with economic freedom. Because that's what the early people in crypto were all about, and which I feel like is missing right now, or is at least being kind of drawn out with number go up and type stuff. So if you wouldn't mind just giving a little brief history of you, your journey in crypto and in starting edge wallet, I think it's important for everyone to know about it. And interesting, too. Yeah, so my journey didn't start with economic freedom and all honestly, before I knew about crypto, before I discovered Bitcoin. I did start with Bitcoin, gosh, now 12 years ago, about 2013. And I think where a lot of people come into what you'd call the conspiracy theorist slash, you know, upset with big establishment through different paths. Some people get there through the financial paths. I actually got there through what I call like more the health and wellness path and more health freedom. So that's my path to get there. And having discovered Bitcoin, I realized that money just about all of it. It drives the narrative. It drives who controls what we have access to, whether it be on a financial side, which is what crypto is more about, or a health wellness side, food side. And so I felt like this was kind of the rug to pull underneath the entire system. If you could pull the financial rug, you can gain back control over all aspects of the narrative. And I saw that when I entered the space, I met a ton of people that were aligned in the same sense as I was with, let's say, not just financial freedom, but all aspects of the narrative, the government, and the large establishment have fed us over decades and how much of it has been misleading in a lie. And so these were my people. I was surrounded by many within a space that this would call the status and the bootlickers. And that was kind of like the family and friends. And I was one of the few that stood out. And for once, I felt like I was surrounded by all the like mines. And that's what kind of brought me really full, full circle. And made me say, this is the only space that I genuinely care about. And I want to drive to full mass adoption, because we can-- whatever path I can take to bring someone into the space of, I guess, freedom as a whole. If I can get them there through the financial side, through the health and well the side, through whatever vision that they feel like has been lacking in the world, then great. They'll eventually come full circle. And as we kind of started the spaces, there's different people, and they have different visions, and they have different ways to interface with technology. We need to build all the different ways to get them into this ecosystem. But anyway, so that's kind of where I'd started. You kind of alluded to a little bit on the issues with our space today. Can you mention that has it been kind of co-opted? Is it too much of the number go up? Yeah, I think it is a bit too much of the number go up. And ironically, I want the number to go up. But I think we've taken the wrong path to get there. And I think we've taken a path of that. Actually, the hibits, the true long-term number go up. And we've taken almost like the short-sighted. I want the news that news and press release today. I want it now that will give me number go up now. That unfortunately delays the longer-term true adoption. That will get you the rock solid, true exponential, and sticky number go up that can't go away. And it's much like humanity, humanities like that. There's a popular saying we don't want to take vitamins. We want to take drugs, right? And so drugs are for the quick fix. They're the quick duct tape fix to whatever problem you have. But they're not the long-term solution. In the same sense, I think the ecosystem is one of that quick fix, the quick high. And they're like, oh, great. My coin now has an ETF grill. That's the quick high that gets people to grab the token because they think it's good news. Does it actually drive long-term adoption of the utility of a chain? Well, I don't see how. I don't see how that actually drives true utility. But it's the quick high. Much like drugs give you the quick high, but then don't really last long-term. Can a love it, man? I can agree with more of what you said. I really love to dig into an unpack. Your health and wellness beliefs and journey. And I'm curious, if you've read the Fiat standard, by Safedi Amos, and it's kind of-- you came to the same conclusions 10, 15 years ago. Yeah, no. The Fiat standard, I've not read or the Bitcoin standard. I've seen enough clips of it. And I'm not a Bitcoin Maxi. And so, Safedi, I've never met the guy. But there is a once a year retreat conference. Some of you may have heard of it. Some people hate it, because it's exclusive. Call the Satoshi Round Table. And one of the breakfasts, people just grabbed a table at the cafe. And I was at a table like Six Folk. Safedi Ame came over and asked if a seat was taken. And I said, sorry, it's all full. And more than half the table said, dude, you're like unfollowing your own Twitter. And I don't even know who you haven't even met. And he's like, yeah, sorry. I'm kind of quick at doing that. And for those of us that are much more open to a lot of different protocols, the pros and cons, a lot of protocols, he, at least at that period in time, was incredibly, incredibly toxic to us. And so while I don't recall even interacting with him, I was also unfollowed, not unfollowed, but I was blocked. I was blocked by him. And so I don't necessarily subscribe to that like the Bitcoin standard. And it was a newer one. I have not read that. And so I can't give it a genuine opinion on the fallings of that book. But I know that there is-- I've seen some clippings about its correlation to how we think about food time preference. I think it's kind of the tie between the two. And I was on a podcast with Peter McCormick quite a few years ago, probably 2018 or so, where that was the topic of discussion with time preference. And humanity has this general challenge because of time preference. And it relates to both money, it relates to health and wellness, it relates to drugs, it relates to the products that we buy. And it is a massive, massive hurdle to get over our desire for the quick and easy. And I think some of the wealthiest people are the few that can overcome that desire. Where they're willing to sacrifice the short-term game for some of the long-term kind of investments, you could say. In a way, everything is an investment in life. And you've got to see that longer-term investment in order to be truly successful. And whatever facet of life you deem as success, it's not always just money. Yeah. And by the way, I definitely was not endorsing safety in as a person. He's definitely toxic. Yeah, he's a good example of-- I actually think the toxic maxis like that hope to keep people away from Bitcoin. But I do separate the person and their argument. So the Fiat standard book was, well, even the Bitcoin standard, it wasn't like a maxi agenda thing. And the same with the Fiat standard. The gist of the Fiat standard was how Fiat money affects people's time preference in everything. Right. And just like you say, with food and the quality of the food and our care, and so I actually thought he did a good job of walking through the different industries and how Fiat money is corrupted them all. And so I'm curious if that-- did you come to that conclusion yourself 15 years ago? How did you-- if you're into health and wellness, how did you make that-- where was your connection between improving your physical mental health and others and crypto? How do you make that connection? How did you-- how did that lead to edge wallet? You want to be healthy. How do you make it-- how does a crypto wallet make me-- Yeah, definitely a few steps in that journey to be able to connect the dots between that. It really started with obviously having health issues myself and then also having friends and family have health issues. My dad had and died of cancer and had a long term pet that did as well, almost in the exact same year. The grandmother and entire mom's family that has rifeed with health issues specifically, not so much cancer, but diabetes. And then actually when you get touched by that, you start doing your own research, right? You don't just listen to the mainstream media. You don't just listen to the doctors that are your first-- I don't call it line-in defense, but the first people that you originally talk to. And you start coming across research that has been researched and news that's been kind of squashed and been hidden from the mainstream public. And while it was a while ago, and I honestly don't know, I mean, there's a lot of debate about this one documentary that I had watched. It at least opened my eyes to say, well, let's look at other methods. And it was a documentary called-- I think it was about a doctor. I can't remember the name of the documentary. It was a doctor named Brazinski that had done some cancer research. Now, he was still in a way not the natural wellness type of angle. He'd still take an angle of building medication and drugs to cure cancer. But what was eye-opening was the effort that government had gone to to squish all of his efforts, because had he been successful all the traditional methods to fight cancer would become obsolete. And we're talking billions of dollars from Big Pharma just going out the door. And his offices were rated and documents and research papers burned. His license revoked, even though he had dozens of patients who would appear in court and testify on his behalf of the success that they had through his clinical trials. And so it's like, what the hell is going on? Shouldn't we be championing these efforts? Shouldn't agencies like American Cancer Society be championing some of these efforts? And that's where it went down the rabbit hole. Well, what are these agencies for? And realizing that the money going to these agencies and nonprofits wasn't to cure anything. It was to continue to simply champion that same narrative that we've had for decades. And who's in control over the largest institutions in our world? How are they able to retain control over this? Well, it's lobbying into government. And then who's able to enforce the narrative, the government who then controls the media as well? And then, of course, how are they able to stay in such strong control over all of this? Well, just like you had mentioned in Safedin's book, it's the Fiat Standard. Then being able to rent money to fund the narrative that we all just sawp up like sponges, that's one angle of it. So their ability to print, which is the ability to fund whatever narrative they choose, or everything from funding wars to funding Big Pharma. All of that is purely funded by Fiat. That was the first kind of angle that I started to see. Being able to-- or see that crypto-- and Bitcoin initially when it first came out and when it first learned about it-- being able to circumvent this kind of problem in our world. From the viewpoint of the connection to time preference, and how Fiat kind of gives us that-- or motivates that very, very short-term time preference, like I want something now, I want it today, I actually came across-- or I started thinking about that after I read a book called Born to Run. I'm not sure if any of you read it. I don't read a ton of books. I admittedly, it's one of the few that I've read, but it really was very eye-opening because the author in a Born to Run talked about how humans are born to run. And through long aspects of humanity, we've been built to be able to run long, long, long distances far longer than we would think. We think of marathon as long. We discovered a tribe in Mexico that runs hundreds of miles on a regular basis, probably weekly. But our psyche also doesn't want to. It's like, oh god, I've got to get up and go running. Why is it that we are so challenged with wanting to run? But yet, millions of us do it. And we haven't innate desire. But we're one of the few animals. If not the only animal in the world that has this innate desire to optimize. If you think about it, how many other animals in generation after generation will optimize their world around them? Almost none. Sure, birds know how to build a nest. And that's technology, if you think about it. But that nest hasn't gotten better over decades and over generations. It's kind of the same bird's nest. But here we are now. We built AI that has been able to optimize our communication between people, optimize how we research. No other animal has been able to do that, especially in the speed that we've been able to. And why is it? It's because we want to optimize in a way. It's because we're lazy. Optimize is the nice way of saying it. Lazy is the harsh way of saying it. And born to run, kind of express that dichotomy of humans is that we're both very efficient. And our efficiencies, how we're able to survive in contrast to the neanderthals. But that efficiencies also what makes us not want to use our energy. It's what makes us want to build things that do stuff that we don't want to do. So we can be a bit lazier. Uber was so successful because we were lazy to sit there and try to find a cab instead of going to push a button and boot one shows up in five minutes. And now people complain when they have to wait 10 minutes for Uber, whereas before a 30-minute wait for a cab was pretty standard. Anyway, this is a huge roundabout circle. I'm not sure if people want to talk about thorching it or whatnot, but an aspect of the humanity that is our challenge is that time preference. It's innate in us because we want to optimize. It's innate in us because we want to be efficient. And that efficiency is innate in us because we are inherently lazy. And that's why we watch something quick and now. We're not willing to wait. And that's why there's someone percent of the population is incredibly successful because they're the ones. They're the few ones that can truly invest in a longer term time preference. And so a roundabout way of kind of describing how I got to this realization-- and it wasn't through Safedin's book. It was through a combination of-- like I said, health and wellness, and having family that ran into their health issues because of, once again, time preference. And then reading this book that opened my eyes and saw how humanity was built a certain way, and realizing that that is our inherent challenge. And it's inherent challenge in everything that I want to build. I feel like I build for long time preference, but I'm surrounded by people which is everybody, right? That isn't. And in a way, sometimes that means you build a product that-- I want to say, build a product. It's not necessarily edge, specifically. But the things that I want to offer people or I want them purchasing in the businesses I want to support are ones that maybe aren't going to be long-term successful because people are a bit too short-sighted. So is it-- excuse me. Excuse me. So does it fair to say that you subscribe to fix the money, fix the world? Yeah. I'd say that's a strongly subscribed to that. And I think the part where that phrase goes wrong is we all define fix the money differently. There's what, five characteristics of money. I don't have them off the top of my head. It's store of value, medium of exchange, unit of account, blah, blah. And so since there's so many definitions of money, when we say fix the money, what aspect of it do we fix? And do we fix all of them? Do I prioritize one aspect of money versus another? But yeah, can I 100% agree fix the money, fix the world? This is part-- money's too many things. Which one do we fix first? That's a great point. Well, maybe can you tie that into edge wallet? If you-- depending on your view, how you understand money, how you want to use SERP, big brothers control, how do that lead to edge wallet? And then what is edge wallet doing to help with that? Yeah, so when I first got into Bitcoin, I think the biggest challenge was self-custody. I saw that dichotomy of self-custody in 2013, the two biggest companies at the time I got into Bitcoin. And they were both Bitcoin only. One is still one of the biggest companies. The other is huge, but by and large, most people haven't heard of anymore. So obviously Coinbase. Coinbase was one of the biggest companies, at least, to American users. And then also Blockchain Identfo. Raise your hand if anyone knows what Blockchain Identfo is here in the audience. And while they're still one of the largest companies, they've kind of faded. But for people that don't know the history of these two companies, back in 2013, the founders that actually looked at partnering and joining, I think, as a Y-combinator, I believe. But they fundamentally disagreed on one aspect of Bitcoin, which was who holds the keys. Blockchain info is self-custody. And of course Coinbase wasn't. If they fundamentally agreed on that, Brian Armstrong was like, no, we can hold the keys. And still be successful, still be secure, and still give people freedom. And I can't remember the original name. Ben, I believe, and something. It was the original founder of Blockchain Identfo, which was originally just a block explorer. And that's all it was, hence the name blockchain.info. And then they launched a self-custody wallet. And his fundamental belief is, no, we needed to keep self-custody. But of course, and he said, it's OK, it's clunky, it's hard to use. And people very easily lose keys. But that's the way we need to go. And they couldn't agree. And so they split. And I think it was only Armstrong that went into a Y-combinator and blockchain info went its own separate ways. We can see long-term what, unfortunately, succeeded, which was the custodial side of that split. And blockchain info, still large companies, still a ton of wallets, they still make a bunch of money. And unfortunately, they've actually gone into more of a custodial route. And they've launched what hasn't been very successful, but they launched a fully centralized exchange as well. And so in that time of 23rd-Tiancent Cash, we wanted to find something that bridged the two. And what allowed for that user experience, Brian Armstrong, was so adamant about and said was necessary in the world, but also retained the self-custody that blockchain info said was so critical. And we believed in. And you mentioned, how does this bridge into why we had built edge? I had, in my analysis of why I cared about crypto, and why I cared about Bitcoin at the time when it was only Bitcoin, all of that fundamentally felt like would go away. Everything I cared about would go away if the world only adopted Bitcoin or adopted it in a large percentage, called 30% to 50% through custodial means. I started asking myself, well, OK, would we able to have freedom to transact between each other? And disintermediate all the payment processors, which are really the banks and the banks, which are the ones that have co-opted the governments. Would we actually be able to disintermediate them? And I don't say make them go away 100%, but really, really limit what their value is in our world. Not if we all went fully custodial, that wouldn't happen. Would we even be able to ensure the monetary rules of Bitcoin, such as the $21 million? And I asked myself that and started studying a little bit of economics ago, you know something. We tried this with gold before, right? So gold has, while it's not a fixed quantity, very limited quantity, as far as what we could physically mine, but then as soon as we implemented banking on top of gold, we printed dollars, which were backed by gold. And there was somewhat of a one-to-one mapping between the two. We gave too much power to the layer two. You know, what you can call dollars layer two of gold, until '71, dollars were not a currency. They were a payment method for gold. And so that layer two effectively became more powerful than the layer one, because that's what we all used. And so for that mirrors the same problem we'll have if all of Bitcoin or all of crypto is in the hands of custodians. We don't actually know what the true quantity will be. And the quantity can eventually get depagged, especially if you use it as a payment method. So OK, well, that's not going to work long term. OK, self-custody is the most important thing. I came to that conclusion. I mean, we have to make sure that this ecosystem adopts self-custody. How are we going to do that? Well, I tried to use it. I've lost some crypto in self-custody. Early on, I was using a miscellium wallet, which required you to print a piece of paper and write down a 16-digit code on the piece of paper. And miscellium was only on mobile, so I had to print it from mobile, which there was no air print at the time. And on Android, there was no way to print either. So you had to figure it a way of emailing yourself to your desktop, printing out this piece of paper, writing a code on it, and make sure you don't lose it. No one sees it. All of that was the big hurdle in self-custody. I'm like, how are we going to drive economic freedom if we force people down what I think is a 3% maximum of the population is willing to do this kind of path? And so, OK, let's build a better system. Let's build something that competes with the coin base but gives the benefits of the blockchain I'd info. And then Edge was born. Although at the time, it wasn't called Edge. It was called AirBits, and our company still AirBits Inc. But we had built just that, and it's been iterated over the years. And that's what people will experience when they try Edge today. It is something that goes back to those years of trying to solve that dual problem. Keep the self-custody, keep the privacy, but give you the experience that you'll get. That's very similar to a centralized service. Nice. Patriot, you want to jump in? I've been asking questions. No, you guys have been doing great. And I completely agree with Paul said. I actually really like that point. I think that was very well said about thinking of fiat dollars, whatever, as a layer two, basically becoming more powerful than the layer one of gold. It means so powerful, in fact, that it can detach itself. And this is why we're in the problem we are in today. And I think that Harkins back to what you were talking about. People choosing convenience over the tenants, the fundamentals, the principles of which this industry is built upon. And I think that's a UX problem, right? Like it's just there's friction there. And kind of also Harkins back to you say about people typically being lazy creatures are wanting fast gratification, right? And so that's what I think was really great about EdgeWalla and everything we're building. I mean, we have other protocols that are trying to fix problems. Like I see Mocha in the audience. A really great point of sale application that Alex from Maya Protocol is trying to help as well. We're all working together to solve this problem. So what about Edge, would you say specifically, that you want to-- how do you-- because I think it is a UX problem, right? So what do you think EdgeWalla does really great? Or what are some things you think you guys can do better? Excuse me. Yeah, no, thanks for your ask that question. I love to be honest about it. And I also want to get feedback from people as far as what we could do better. I switched to headphones, by the way. Am I coming in OK? Sound better, actually. Better, yeah, yeah, I figured. Yeah, I was scrambling looking first of my headphones. I've been on speaker this whole time. So I'm glad this is an improvement. But what I think we do well, and what our big focus is on, and also what I would call, compared to all of our competitors, we have to spend a tremendous amount of time on our engineering side, that most of our competitors don't have to, is key management. So you'll notice an edge. You don't have to write down seed words, right? There's no 24 words you have to write down when you go and create your Edge account. And so that might sound bad to a lot of the long-term cipher punk-ish users of crypto. But once again, this is us bridging the gap to try to get self-custody adopted by the 97% as opposed to the 3%. So in Edge, you create login credentials as you would like in a coin-based. Except there's no email, there's no phone number. You know, we still care a ton about privacy, and we don't want accounts associated to actual real emails, phone numbers, which can easily be tied to a real user. So you create just the username, login credentials, a pin, and that automatically creates your keys for all of your chains, and then encrypts them all, and then back them up, and then synchronizes them between your different devices. And so all of the new wants of making the user feel like they're creating a regular account, being able to change passwords, set up two factor authentication, even password recovery. And this is something that a co-founder and I had invented over a long drive to and from a conference in Vegas, back and forth from San Diego to Vegas. So oh my god, we can actually build a password recovery mechanism that's still self-custody, that feels familiar to users. And so all of that is what I call the novel innovative stuff that we've built at Edge, to make it genuinely feel like a regular account, and still use encryption, deep cryptography, to ensure that both privacy and the security is retained. And Edge isn't of access to these accounts. That's why I think we've done quite well in doing. And we still have to spend quite a bit of engineering in that to keep it up to date, and keep the infrastructure scaling to be able to handle the user base. So I invite people to give it a try. It's going to-- if you've been in crypto for a number of years and have never used Edge, it'll feel different. No question about it. But I ask you to-- it'll feel different. But I'll ask you, on board, someone has not been in crypto. On board a new person into Edge. And then also try to on board them into one of our competitors. And see how they feel. What feels more familiar to them? What are they more easily able to adopt? So I liken what we've built to-- if you go back into the '80s for any of you that are old enough to remember the '80s, I'm kind of an '80s child myself. Go back to the '80s. Many people don't remember this. But Steve Jobs and Apple, they built the Apple II, which many people here probably have never used. It was entirely command line computer. You booted it up. You got a cursor. I had to stick floppy disks into the thing, run type commands to run your program. But you could open up the box and you could add expansion cards and you can increase the RAM and upgrade it. And you needed to do that in order to run some programs. Steve Jobs hated that. He knew it was a necessity to build and launch the Apple II. But he absolutely hated it. And so the Mac came around. And the Mac hit it all from you. You didn't have to deal with expansion cards. You didn't have to open up the computer. It just worked. But all of the people that love the Apple II and actually had user groups, these were kind of like the early name for Meetups. We kind of call Meetups today. But in the '80s, they were called user groups. And they would have classes and teach people how to use their Apple II e. How to open it up a few minutes if you needed to, or how to type in the commands in order to run programs, and how to copy files between your floppy disks and whatnot. Those user groups hated the Mac. They're like, wait, where did my screws go to open the thing? Where's my trumped? My terminal prompt was gone. And they're like, you don't need it anymore. You got to click, click, click. And now grandma can use it. We like to know what we've built and the error that we're in to kind of that transition between the Apple II and the Mac. And there are long-term users of crypto that do not like what we've built. Much like the people that ran the user groups in the '80s didn't like the Mac, because they were used to seeing the guts of the technology. And fundamentally, I think the kind of 1224 words are the guts of the technology. They're not like bridging it over into the masses. Now, granted, I think that should still exist. Those should continue to exist. Like a terminal prompt still exists in a current Mac today. But it doesn't have to be the only way you access an interface with crypto and back up your keys. And so how do I think of this transition and what's challenging? Yeah, for those of you that feel comfortable with it, go use an app where you go and back up your 24 words great. And for what I believe is the masses, I eat all the people that would use Coinbase and not use self-custody. So that's what Edge is built. What have we not done well with, though? I think you'd ask that question as well. Is what have we been weak on? So as part of that kind of strong privacy narrative that we build, it's not just self-custody, but also privacy, the strong privacy effort that we build, that means that we do a lot more on device on your phone. There are some self-custody apps that are incredibly fast and efficient, but they make the compromise of doing 99.9% of what the app would do entirely on a server. And the only thing that it doesn't do on the server is have the private key to sign a transaction. They might create the transaction on a server. They might query all of your addresses across all of your assets, whether it's Bitcoin, Ethereum, Salana, Dogecoin, you name it. Everything is queried on a server under a single account identifier. So a technique could be, for example, a technique that a wallet could use if they wanted to be incredibly efficient. And lightweight is have a single account key that you create when you open up your wallet. And it's derived from your master private key. That account key goes to their server. And that account key gets associated with all of your public addresses. And they can query a block explorer, just behave like a block explorer, create all of your addresses at once, while you're offline, know your balances and know all your transactions and know that all of those belong to a single user. And as soon as you launch the app, it immediately knows all your balances and transactions. Just like that, right? There's no waiting. It's instant and fast. But it compromises the privacy in knowing that every single one of these transactions and addresses belongs to one person. Who that is, they may not know. Or maybe they do, because they ask for a phone number. Many of our competitors actually ask for a phone number now. So maybe they know all these transactions and balances belong to this one person. So that is a very efficient way of operating. In Edge, we don't do that, right? We take every single chain and we query it individually to ideally as much as possible open nodes, right? Open nodes on the network of which something we run ourselves. But the nodes that we run are not unique to us, meaning other people can use them, right? You don't have to be an Edge user to use these nodes and blockbook servers that we run. And that gives us, in a way, it obfuscates the knowledge of which addresses and which transactions are edge versus which are not. But that is less efficient. Meaning that when you fire up Edge, all of your wallets are these little engines that have to go and sync with the network and query. Here's my address. What transactions do I have? Here's my address, what's my balance? And it's to do that. And if you have a ton of wallets inside Edge, you have like five Bitcoin wallets and three Ethereum and a doge wallet and whatnot, each one of those has to go and sync up with the network and it does that individually by itself. That's less efficient. And so we'll feel, especially on boot up, like a slower app than I think many others. And that's the piece that we're trying to optimize, like pretty much like on a monthly basis, trying to find ways to optimize that and make it a better experience. So that along with an answer, hopefully that both answers it, but then also gives you the nuance of why we do it. We do compare to a lot of the other options out there. - Yeah, well, that's exactly, you know, I was thinking what you're talking about, and I was thinking about fortune as well, because like, you know, you have an ethos, right? You have principles of which edge wallet is founded upon and you are sticking to that ethos. And this is actually a competitive disadvantage we applied to ourselves, right? Like, fortune cannot have third party dependencies. It has to be decentralized, you know, we try to run our own infrastructure, keep everything in-house, right? And because of that, the protocol is very complex. There's almost 700,000 ones of code. We cannot move as fast as a centralized player when it comes to like shipping things anymore. And that puts us as disadvantage. But there is enormous power to that as well, right? And we both strive to figure out ways to optimize that and make the best experience possible for our customers in our user base. So you're not doing anything wrong. It's just how do you take the disadvantage that we apply to ourselves out of principle and streamline it in a way that is more competitive? But at the same time, this same air quotes, this advantage, we apply to ourselves is actually enormously powerful because the way that this industry is moving, it is something that people will come to appreciate like the idea that, you know, it is permissionless on fortune, there is no KYC. You are seeing that that narrative really take hold now of the importance of not having KYC. And so I think we're just early, my friend. And I encourage you just to keep doing what you're doing. I think you're doing a great job. And I hope anyone who just listened to those answers, you should follow Paul. And I did share something that bleak on top of the space here, give Edgewater Paul, try it out, try it out. And he also said something very, very important because we, the people who are currently in crypto, we are not the important people we need to go after. We want to go after the people who are not in crypto. Just like the Mac, the Mac book that he mentioned, a great example, we want to on-ramp people. We want to get them on here. And how we do that is we have to reduce that friction. We have to make the process easy. Because all those command lines, then everything you talk about, that's obsolete. It's no longer a thing, right? So we have to not play Kate to our own cells, but play Kate, or we have to appeal, excuse me, to the people that we want to join this industry. And we will. So dude, that was a great answer. Well done. Kenton, did you have anything you want to add to that? I do have a question. So Paul, you mentioned the kind of the Kramajani old school of crypto people used to their seed phrase wallets. And all alluded to them, type deal. One of the, I guess, they might say one advantage of that is that they can take their 12 words, their seed phrase, and go recreate their wallet anywhere in the world with any other wallet. I'm curious with Edge, if there's no seed phrase, if it's just like a login name and password that I create, what happens if, like, Edge wallet app gets shut down on the app store? Is there a way for me to recreate my wallet somewhere else? Yeah, so the seed phrase actually isn't not there. It's always there. It's created. It's just encrypted and backed up. And you're not asked to specifically back it up. But it's always on your device. So at any point, you can go to airplane mode with Edge today. If you've got an account on your phone, you can go into airplane mode, log in with your full password or biometric. PIN specifically does require network access. But log in with your full password or biometric. And you can go to your wallets and show your master private key, which is a seed phrase for most wallets. Now, one inconvenience in doing that, though, is both an inconvenience and it's a feature. With Edge, we actually create a different master private key for every chain. So when you first start up, you might pick like Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, or a handful of chains like coin as you're the chains that you have assets in your account for. And each one of those has a different master private key. Which means if you wanted to back them up, you'd be backing them one per chain. So it's not going to be the most fun backup process and export process into another wallet. Now, what's the benefit of that, though? A lot of people don't realize there's a huge benefit in that. Number one, security. There was a-- what was the name? There was a Solana wallet. Once again, to tell another story for you guys, there was a Solana wallet a couple of years ago that had an exploit that leaked private keys out of the app. And a lot of people obviously lost Solana from that. But a good number of people were losing Bitcoin, Ethereum, and a bunch of other assets. And they're like, why did I lose my Bitcoin, Ethereum? When this was a Solana-only wallet that had been exploited, and it obviously was-- because of a Solana, it had very specific Solana features, like a lot of staking capabilities, air drops, but all this stuff. And that's what people were reading that wallet for. And the reason was people were exporting their keys from a multi-asset wallet like an Exodus, a phantom, and whatnot. They were exploring that one master private key from those wallets, putting it into the Solana wallet, and then getting their air drops and doing their staking and whatnot. And when that got exploited, they lost everything. Not just the Solana, not just their air drops, but the Bitcoin, Ethereum, stablecoins, you name it. They lost all. And that's one of the inherent risks of a single master private key. Is if at any point in time you're needing that master private key to be able to access some aspect of one asset, you put all assets at risk. Another way that that could happen is being sent the wrong asset. So not sure how much your audience can be aware of this, but addresses across-- can actually exist across multiple chains. This is very true in the EVM world, obviously, like an Ethereum versus an L2. One address can mean multiple chains. But this is actually also true in kind of the Bitcoin world. Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Cash, Litecoin. Someone can actually send Bitcoin to a Litecoin address. So now imagine someone sent you-- or there was a split in the network. Someone sent you some random fork of Bitcoin onto your Litecoin address. If you remember 2017, the fork wars, everyone took Bitcoin and forked it, took Bitcoin, Cash, forked it, Bitcoin, Gold, Bitcoin, pizza, blah, blah. And they sent that over to you on some address. Well, there are tools to take your keys and import it into a wallet specific to that chain and get your money out. If you were to import the master private key-- well, once again, that puts everything at risk-- all of your assets. With Edge, if you had to import the master private key, you'd be importing it for that one chain that had generated an address that you had received an incorrect asset on. And then put that into some other wallet and get those funds out. And if you didn't want to put all your funds at risk, you could sweep out your funds first and then import the key. Imagine if you had to sweep out your funds for everything you had, everything from Barcelona, your Ethereum, your Litecoin, your Minerable, it'd sweep all that just to make sure that that private key was emptied of all your funds. And then import that private key into another wallet to extract out the funds that were accidentally sent to you, or either accidentally sent to you, or they were of a fork of a chain. So the long-winded answer, yes, you can take your private key out. The private key does exist there in Edge. And it always exists on your device after you've at least logged in once. And you can create new private keys as well. Every time you create a new chain or a new wallet inside of your account, that's another master private key. And it's automatically encrypted backed up. And you can import keys into Edge. Those get automatically encrypted and backed up. So detriment is, yes, there's many keys. It's going to be hard to backup Edge. It's going to be hard to restore it on another app. Benefit is you have a more secure environment if you have to export a key. You also can easily import keys. And you can create new wallets. And they're all encrypted and backed up. You're not having to backup more keys. And to write down more information, if more keys get added to your account. So it's a pro and con. And I think that the pro outweighs the con, my fundamental philosophy is while you built it. But I want to make sure people are aware the genuine answer to your question is that yes, the keys are there. You can import them into other apps. That's pretty cool, man. I've not heard of this before in another wallet. Is Edge the only wallet that does this? Does any other wallets do this? I know there's other wallets that let you have multiple keys, but you have to then backup each one individually. And they'll tend to take each key. And make it-- the interface will be much more like, hey, go switch to this key. And then that key then has a bunch of assets, right? And then your whole interface is around one key, right? Either Bitcoin, your Ethereum, or Slana, whatever your doge or Litecoin. And then it's a heavyweight operation to go, oh, switch to another key, master private key, which then shows a whole bunch of different assets. So I've seen-- yeah, I've seen absolutely import multiple keys. But I've seen you're managing each one very individually. They're not automatically backed up and encrypted. And so there's some inherent challenges in UX that, to the power users, the Apple 2Es, Apple 2E users, that's not a problem. They can handle that. For everyone else, I think-- I mean, for me personally, I'm a developer. I'd like to consider myself a power user. But I definitely get overwhelmed in key management. As soon as I'm creating two, three keys for whatever purpose I need to create them for. And so I'm not aware of any others that let you do this, but I'm open ears. There might be some others. But I think this is where we definitely differentiate. That's really cool, man. I mean, it sounds like Edge is the best of both worlds. If you want to just be-- keep it simple, not worry about it, think about keys. No problem, you can use it. If you want to be a power user, get granular, you can. That's awesome. Yeah, absolutely. And some power users-- at least some of our team will say-- actually, as a quote unquote power user, there's one additional advantage to abstracting the key management, especially for EVM chains, and all the layer twos of Ethereum and whatnot, is it becomes easier to have multiple Ethereum addresses. So the power user may want multiple Ethereum addresses. You can kind of define power user in different ways, right? If I'm a power user, because I would just want to manage my own keys, that's one aspect of being a power user, and actually see the 24 words and back them up. OK, that's power user. But a power user could also be one of these-- I want to have multiple addresses. I want to have my NFT Ethereum address. I want to have my DeFi Ethereum address. I want to have the one that I pay my USDC payments with, and have multiple. That kind of power user will find life a little easier in Edge, because you can have multiple addresses more easily. And not just have your single Ethereum address that way kind of compromises what you might be doing from a privacy point of view. I can imagine if you had just a one address and you are sending-- you're receiving all those NFTs to these events that you attend, all of those pull apps, proof of attendance NFTs. And that's also where you hold NFTs that you've actually been purchasing that are worth five, six figures. And that's also where you're doing your DeFi operations and swapping stuff on Thorching. Well, now you go into an event, get a POAP, and that event knows your entire financial history. On pretty much every L2 on Ethereum, L2, L1, you name it, because they're all sharing the same address. So a privacy power user will want multiple addresses. That's really hard to do on just about every competitor to Edge. You really are stuck with one address, not just one of just Ethereum, but for all of its L2s, and all of the EVMs such as like AVACs, Polygon, which aren't even Ethereum. So privacy power user will really struggle on most of the competitor apps. And I think that's what we make a little bit easier for privacy power users on Edge. I think that's fantastic, man. I love it. This is a great conversation, guys. We are coming at the top of the hour. Please, again, share the space. This is a great conversation. We have wonderful guests today with Paul from Edge Wallet. Fantastic. Again, check out the resource I've put up top. You guys are important things when it comes to this industry. We have to support the protocols that share our values. If Paul does not share your values, I don't know why you're part of Thorchen, because this is exactly what we need. But we also have a new speaker. We had HoudiniSwap come up and shout out to HoudiniSwap. We did a space with them a little while ago. And I actually rubbed them a little bit because I got super, super sick and I could not make the space. But they gladly rescheduled. We had a great conversation. This was like two months ago or something like that. So welcome, HoudiniSwap. But when you check your mic and what do you got for us? HoudiniSwap, if you're speaking, you are muted. And I'll give you a few more seconds and see if we can get that resolved. - Maybe they're experiencing what I did when I first tried to join in. - Yeah, it is not uncommon for X2Rug wonderful. So we'll give HoudiniSwap. We'll come back to HoudiniSwap, give him a few more seconds to figure out any tech issues because that happens a lot on X. Very good. Well, Paul, real quick, I wonder what can, forechain we have gone through a lot, right? Like we've made mistakes that people know, right? We've done really incredible things like streaming swaps. What do you think forechain should focus on next? What do you think should be our priority? Because you were one of the foundation people that really helped us streamline our process. So could you share your opinion on that, Paul? If you're speaking, I do not hear you. Am I rubbed? - I can hear you. I can't hear Paul. - Oh, what is going on right now? HoudiniSwap and Paul now can't speak. Okay, now he's a listener. X, I swear to God. Oh, I hear you. Go ahead. - Okay, yeah, so I think the last time I joined the spaces like a month ago, there was heavy discussion about that. Can't recall the exact nuance detail, but if there's, you know, I think anything that. There's a bunch of small things. That's the best way for me to describe it. A bunch of small things. I'm sure many people will want more chain support, but of course that is a large, large undertaking from the viewpoint of technical, but then also resources for each of the node operators, right? Having to run and validate another chain is not cheap. But that's easily what I know a lot of people do look for in getting Thorechain and the ecosystem of Thorechain like Maya and other decks is to be able to compete with centralized exchanges where people are depositing money and losing their self-custody. So more chain support. For me personally, and the ecosystem of people that resonate with Edge, we really want to push for privacy chain support. Am I still there by the way? Yeah, okay, good. So glad you mentioned that, and I didn't mean to cut you off, I'm sorry, brother. The one thing that people have been talking about, I've seen as Monero, we're seeing this centralized custodial option, has to be centrally custodial option. There's a real gray box where these swaps are coming from. And I am seeing the biggest push for privacy. So I'm so glad you said that. Please continue, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I'm actually just checking to make sure I was coming in, okay, because my ex app was saying I had like connection restored and disconnected. I'm like, ah, what's going on here? But glad you guys can still hear me. So yeah, privacy coins. Obviously ZCash, you know, now supported by Maya. So it's at least in the ecosystem. But its recent pump has got a lot of people looking at privacy in general. And there has been even outside of what I call that like Monero, shadowy, super coder, very a non-focused ecosystem. I mean, we're hearing what I call mass market. Like the VCs talking about it. There was a great post by, I think his name's Ali Yah. Kimmer is pronounced the last name. But from A16Z and recent Horowitz had an entire, like two page post about how privacy is going to be the most important vote for crypto protocols going into 2026. And I'm like, wow, this is amazing. That's been our focus. Now, we're not a crypto protocol. But believing that the protocols that offer privacy being really the important distinguishing factor going into this year by, stated by one of the largest investors in all of tech, not just crypto. They're obviously a huge, large crypto investor, but also just in general, the tech space really will open the eyes of the layman, the normie into the-- You got a rug there, Paul. Dang it. Try to dang it. Well, I'm going to give Paul a second to go ahead, Paul. Just keep talking, Paul. Maybe we'll hear you, but just to spin off of what he was saying, there seems to be a new push on this, especially for our own community. I saw we had a node operator in Deb Discord. Talk about our old black protocol, something we tried to use the multi-sig. Are you there, Paul? You trying to speak? Mike Check, am I here? Yep, continue, buddy. OK, where did I leave off? Where did I get rug? Oh, man, go ahead. Was it on A16Z? He's just-- Do you guys remember that? Yeah. Just after that, yeah. So I mean, Ali from A16Z, who I was referring to, had put in about a two-page article post about the importance of privacy and it being the biggest moat on crypto protocols. So fundamentally, I think this is going to open the eyes of just the normies out there and how important this is. And so I'm excited to go into the year with, hopefully, that being an elevated concern for people. And of course, privacy protocol, even building a protocol is only a first step of it. And we're not a protocol developer, but being able to use the protocol as the next step, which is where we come in. We can interface to those protocols. And then, of course, there's a protocol on top of protocols like Thoracane, where not only do you need to build interface from it, from a UI point of view of what we're building, but also, you need to be able to bridge between it, get into the protocol with whatever assets you have, such as Bitcoin, Ethereum, and being able to swap into them, do DeFi operations with those assets. I think that is what I'm genuinely happy that a more mainstream VC is seeing the value behind the efforts that we've all kind of built. Now, we'll see going to 2026, how much that narrative actually pushes through, but I think we can all take part in making sure that it does actually achieve a strong narrative by supporting the protocols. And we'll see where it gets. Happy to be part of it. - 100%. Yeah, go ahead, get them. - No, it's me too. I'm curious your thoughts. You've been in space for a while, you've seen something like the attacks from Big Brother and whatnot. And right now, the US is pro crypto. But some people are concerned where this politics can always change, right? And I can't help but wonder if the powers of B are okay with crypto because it's all public. They can actually track everything. And that's why they're giving it a pass. And if privacy really takes off and is adopted, if Big Brother will clamp down again, I'm curious if you see that as a risk. And if so, do you think we can win? Do you think we can fight it? Do you think, like there's been, like a door chain, for example, some people think, you know, if we add a Menero pool, door chain isn't big enough to ward off like a state level attack type deal. I'm curious your thoughts around that. How do we, how do we introduce privacy and have it stick, have it succeed? Or do you think I'm being crazy? I'm being paranoid that it won't be that hard, dude, for it to take off. I don't think you're being paranoid, but there's kind of two angles to think about it, right? Either, where was this post I saw? You're either so small. Actually, it was by the Zcash team. It was a founder, not founder, but the former CEO of ECC, Josh sweetheart, had made a post that I resonate with, not all of it, but one line, which is either, so small you fly under the radar, or you're so big that can't stop you, right? Thor chain is, how do I say it? I think it's somewhere in between, right? I don't think it flies under the radar anymore, but it's not so big that, you know, that they can't stop you. But because you're no longer small to fly under the radar, the goal then is to get so big that they can't stop it. That everyone's dependent on it. It's utilized by a lot of, a lot of the ecosystem. And if part of how you get there is through the support of the privacy chains, then I'd say so be it. As well, there are, there's two facets of how do you get there? Number one, yeah, support of the privacy chains, there's a high demand for them. But as well, get adoption within kind of that normy ecosystem, right? How do we get Thor chain to just be part of, like not your shadowy supercoder type of, you know, dark market user, but get enough of volume from the regular laymen as well. Because every tool in the world, everything, literally, you know, underwear, T-shirts, homes are all used by what the government will call bad guys, right? So if you want to like say, oh, well, that's used by, you know, you know, child molesters and whatnot and terrorists, well, everything is used by child molesters and terrorists. Name one thing that isn't, literally everything is. So the real question is, well, what percentage of the users of an item are what government call bad guys versus what government will say are normies? And the higher that percentage of normies, the more they're not going to target whatever that thing is, or whatever that tool is, the more they're not going to target that tool as being a, and then the listed piece of the ecosystem. And so getting into the hands of more people is a key piece of that path. Like I said, everything is used by bad guys. Literally everything. And so bros fast as we can, as we can get into the hands of as many people as we can and become too large to be stopped. And luckily, there is a narrative for us to get the normies in there because it's already being championed by the normie investors and the VCs, and they have a lot of power, and they have a lot of ability to transform and change and drive narrative, see what they're trying to push from the viewpoint of protocols in which once the support in Thoracane, and get those champion and pushed, as well as the ones that people are demanding today. - You know, I really love this conversation. It's something I think about a lot, and this is how I think about it again, guys, you know, on Patriot Sounds, Denny's, my name, I speak for myself. I don't speak on behalf of the protocol. I am an ordinary individual, a member of this community, but this is how I interpret it. Because, you know, I am a public official. I've gone to fundraisers. I've got to see a little bit of the inner machine. It was a important thing to think of. What is the government? Okay, what is it? Some people say, well, it's the politicians, it's the people we elect, it is not. It is the people who finance those people. Those are the people who are making the choices in the back end. The politicians, it's just the frontman. They're the packaging, right? They're the outer layer. They are not the meat and potatoes of what's going on. And I think Paul's correct. There could be some silver linings here, because Thoracane has gone through this growth period. We had to discover like what works, what doesn't. And we've made some really good decisions. We've made not some not so good decisions, but it's taken a while to get to this point. Now here we are. We have a community that is fully mature. We understand the vision, we understand the path forward. We are currently training new node operators to increase the decentralization of Thoracane. We are getting bigger, better, stronger. We have this new app layer, Rijira, that's coming. That is just in every single way better than what any traditional economic doctrine can offer, any primitive whatsoever. This is how I think about it. I think we absolutely will be attacked, but that is part of my game theory. Being attacked is the necessary step to ultimately becoming free. Because the people who finance our governments, and it's not just America, it's all our governments, right? They're the ones that call the shots. They will not tolerate surrendering their economic dominion over the world. They will not do that. Absolutely not. And the reason why they have an attack Thoracane is because we are not that big of a threat. But if we continue to execute, if we continue to do that, we absolutely will. But to Paul's point, he's absolutely correct. We must make this text so useful, so ubiquitous in the hands of so many people that we can weather the storm. And so, yeah, I think it will happen, but I am confident that we can and we will carry the day that we will win. And because, guys, everything what we do when it comes to privacy, maybe we add Manero soon, right? It is the right thing to do. It is the correct thing to do. The narrative is firmly in our court. There is nothing that we have to be ashamed of. We have nothing to hide from. This is the way we need to go. And so, own it, wear it with pride. And just prepare yourself, right? And again, I feel so confident if there's any community in blockchain anywhere that can weather the storm, that can deliver the ultimate promise of blockchain, it is this one, it is Thoracane, Maya, it is Edge, it is Houdini, it is all of us working together. So, embrace that idea, don't be afraid from it. And if it does happen, just be ready. I want to give Houdini swap another opportunity to speak to check your mic. If you want to just hang out up here, that's more than welcome to do that, but I know access to difficulties. Would you check out your mic Houdini swap, real quick? - Hey, guys, DMGM, can you hear me okay? - Yeah, go ahead, what do you got for us, man? - Hey, guys, yeah, no, just saw Edge Wallet and Thoracane and just wanted to say Happy New Year to everyone. And just, yeah, I'm just driving right now, so I don't have too much for you guys, but it's just, it's really, really exciting to see privacy back in the mainstream. And I think for us to feel like uncles and kind of OGs in the space, really, really pushing privacy adoption, it's just so awesome to see so many different players coming out and really just building. And what we feel is truly crypto's biggest barrier to mass adoption and mass scale. And it's just, yeah, it's a really, really awesome feeling to see three years of hard work trying to, starting to finally pay off. And just even like to share some anecdotal stories over the break, our core team kind of just took a step away and just did some serious deep thinking on privacy and ecosystem products and really just like the crypto landscape altogether. And you can imagine building in a time where tornado cash was getting sanctioned and Roman Storm was fighting with the SEC every day. And we were already, we were a disruptive company in an already disruptive space, right? Like you have crypto, which is already very nascent and often looked at as kind of like whatever, right? There's a lot of misinterpretation around crypto and then you add privacy to that. And it's kind of like this double edge sword. So it felt like all these conversations with VCs and large protocols and L1s and chains, we were always on the back foot, right? Trying to explain who we are and that we are compliance first and we're trying to solve for use cases like somebody getting sandwiched when they're trading and mevmed or issuing payments, financial operations, payroll, like investment strategies, not being doxed and wrench attacks protecting against all these legitimate use cases, but we were always on the back foot. And I just encourage people to look at over, look at Airbnb, look at polymarket, right? All of these companies were disruptive companies in very nascent industries, right? And so I'm sure it seemed crazy. I'm sure it seemed taboo. I'm sure it seemed criminal to get into a stranger's vehicle 10 years ago, right? That wasn't a taxi cab. And I'm sure it seemed taboo to rent out a stranger's home for a vacation for a weekend. I'm sure it seemed very taboo. Criminal sketchy to invest in low liquid markets. You know, that were political based or on chain. Like it just, it's, but then look what happens. It's just like a flick of the switch, right? Where these companies, it just becomes something happens. There's some catalyst and it just flips like a switch. And we really, really are true believers that that is privacy in 2026. And it's just going to be this flick of the switch moment where it's like, yeah, you're right. I definitely should not be taking my Uber ride and paying on public rails because now that Uber driver not only knows my home address or my location, but they also know my financial worth. And that puts you into a very, very interesting predicament from not only a privacy perspective, but a security perspective. And in this surveillance capitalism economy that we're living in, like financial data is legitimately gold, right? If you're just gonna transact and pay for your coffees and you know, on public blockchain rails, you bet that Starbucks or whatever, you know, counterparty you're interacting with is just aggregating all of this data, you know, financial data being the highest tier that they're looking and they'll just leverage it against you, right? Like we just, we know this game so, so well. So anyways, two, like my two cents on that and just like, you know, the shadow torching, that shadowed edge wallet. Just love to see other proponents of privacy and like it's just, it's so obvious from our point of view that crypto cannot scale without privacy. It's something that just I think takes time and like you don't really feel it until you've had that experience of getting fished or you know, somebody's watching your wallets or you know, you're paying employees and you don't want all your employees to know everything that's near treasury and you know, the employees are having, you know, access to what each other's making at the business. Like all these operations are just so fundamentally flawed and it's obvious to us, but it's just, it's now becoming more obvious to the A16Zs of the world and, you know, all the tier one wallets and all the trading terminals and so it's just, yeah, it's just awesome to see and yeah, really just looking forward to see what 2026 has for privacy. So I appreciate you guys giving me a little spiel there but I'll shut up and turn it back to you guys. - Well, I appreciate you coming up and saying those things because you know, it's, you know, a space can easily just be a bunch of guys in the circle jerk, right? Like no, I asked the audience, listen to what Houdini Swap just said. Give me the argument, the good arguments of why everything he said was a bad idea and we'll make it quick, there are no good arguments against it's common sense. It makes complete sense that we need privacy. It is absolutely essential and the arguments against privacy, they are flawed on a fundamental level. So no fear you guys, full send, let's embrace it. Let's push the envelope. We've got this, we are now mature enough. Let's not have fear, let's not worry about big brother. Stand tall, square your back, plant your feet, look forward, head up, chin up, right? Just, this is what we're doing. This is the right thing to do and that's the way it's going to be. So I think we got this guys, I really do. We just got to take it home. So that's what we're going to do. Paul, I'm going to kick it back to you. Did you have any thoughts on that? Only 100% agreement with this. Thanks a whole lot from Houdini Swap to kind of reiterate what we've been feeling for the past several years. I mean, it's, it's been tough. I want to resonate with the fact that it's been tough building in this intersection of crypto and privacy, especially seeing crypto kind of go kind of in the opposite direction. But yeah, it's got almost a breath of fresh air relief to see at least a 16 Z resonate with this. I want to capture though a bit of a nuance in this privacy battle that we have and make sure people are aware of kind of this one challenge we are going to run into. I'm sure we're going to run to this is that privacy is a bit nuanced, right? There's different aspects of what we keep private or what is defined as private. And there will come a ecosystem of privacy, what I call like the protocols and narratives that are what I call tradfy level privacy, where you know, you might get the good enough. This is my biggest fear in my push for privacy is that good enough to the established players gets built, but it doesn't achieve that longer term economic freedom that we're trying to build for, that good enough being the backdoor privacy, the sure I transact with a coffee shop and they don't know my balance. Sure, I can go ahead and pay my staff and employees and they don't know the company's treasury or they don't know how much each other is getting paid. But the government does the bank, you know, the protocol operator does, some third party does, and we all know that when there is a backdoor, that backdoor can get leaked. And when that's leaked, we all lose the privacy. So the same way that hopefully signal has been able to succeed without incorporating a backdoor into the protocol, that protocol, but into their app. I'm hoping that something in the ecosystem of crypto that is true privacy at the cryptographic level without a backdoor gets adopted and that we don't just achieve good enough or equivalent to the tradfire world, but we exceed it. All right, 'cause that's our goal. So we don't try to build technology to achieve what we already have. We should build technology to build something that exceeds the caliber what we already have. Much like Bitcoin's trying to exceed the ability for us to own our own money, not achieve what we already have. So this is the piece, keep an eye out for this, everybody. And when you start hearing of protocols come out or you know, brag about, hey, we're private, make sure that they're doing that and exceeding that level of privacy, the tradfire, kind of already gives, right? Otherwise we're just kind of bringing us back to where we already are and not really getting any true real adoption. - Perfectly said, perfectly said. Guys, we get to set the standard. All of us get to set the standard. All of us work together. We're your Thor chain, Maya, Houdini, Edge wallet. We are collectively going to set the standard. It is within our power, our collective power to do this to establish what is right. And we're going to do that. We are going to do that. So guys, if you ever feel bearish, if you ever feel, you know, don't. We are not going to stop. None of us are going to stop until we fulfill this mission. We economically liberate the world. I know that sounds cliche. I know that might sound overly romanticized. But it's literally what we're going to do. We have all existed under this nonsensical economic doctrine, this tyrannical system that takes away our purchasing power. It's enough. We've had enough. We've had enough of nation states destroying the things for their own personal benefit, trying to enslave everybody. We are setting the new standard, a global standard that is open source, free permissionless for anyone to use, fix the money, fix the world, it's legit how it's going to be. Kent and I want to kick it to you if you want to add anything to this conversation. No, I agree with everyone. I agree. I think a good offense is a strong defense. So having more resources that are disposals, how we protect ourselves, defend ourselves. So gross is the answer. And yeah, we can't-- this is what I feel like is, like, me personally, what I'm in the crypto is for the revolution. For this, changing the-- like you said, Paul, like a new tech-- or as a Paul, I don't need to talk. Forget what you said, sorry. You can invent a new technology to solve a problem. And the whole point of crypto is a new financial system. Not to work within the existing one is to replace the existing one. And yeah, they're not going to go down without a fight. That's my only concern. So first ignore you, then they fight you, then you win. I do think we're going to win. I'm just wondering about the casualties along the way and how we do it. But you can't imply yourself out of tyranny. So at some point, we've got to take a stand. And in my mind, privacy is it. I think this is our stand. This is where the final battle will be held. And yeah, I think if everyone's working together, we're all pitching in. And so I think we're going to win. I want to mention one thing you'd ask. Well, what should thought chain do? Should we be concerned, do more conservative, especially with respect to privacy? You'd mention also that administrations can change. Well, you're right. Right now, current administration is pro-crypto. But the good thing is, even though administration can change, there is such a thing called precedent that gets set. And so this is the time to go and build and push the limits. Because if you get a green light within this administration, that's very hard for a future administration to reverse. So that precedent is key. If you get the, hey, there's no action letter because we did this. Or if there is a challenge that gets placed, but because the administration is pro-crypto and to even a slight degree pro-privacy, then getting that green light now gives you the green light for a very, very long term. So this is the time to go and push. Push hard, push fast. Get adoption, push the limits to what we believe is that legal gray area, because this is the time to get it. And you're right, it might change. And if this window passes, so could be our chance to get that little nugget of approval or no action that we need to be able to fight it going forward. Yeah, absolutely. There's so many side things like that. The other one is, too, in that window, the storage in particular, if it continues to grow, that becomes more decentralized. And so that even if they do change their minds, and you're, let's say, we don't get that pass. And then they do want to come back and do something. Well, by then, the storage chain is much bigger and much stronger. The other one, too, and this is where number goes up plays in. With Bitcoin, for example, while these politicians didn't all of a sudden become like us, you know what I mean? They're just in it to make money. And that's the benefit of Bitcoin being a successful investment is that it plays in the people's greed, too, right? So big brother generally would drive the Castro, for all Castro's installments of the world is power, right? It's not money, it's power. But a lot of politicians are driven by greed. And so they find a way to make money, get campaign donations, whatever, by supporting and get votes, by supporting Bitcoin and crypto. So it could be the same thing. With privacy, there's going to be politicians that see the writing on the wall, see the winds changing. They're going to want to support privacy and promote it and be advocates for it. And because they find a way to make money off it to get votes out of it, you know what have you. And so that could help with things politically, too, right? And the only way they're going to, a rogue politician is going to support it is if it actually is succeeding, right? It is being used, it is benefiting people. So there's always, there's new wants to everything, right? Just not, yeah, I don't think it's so black and white that, you know, all of a sudden we're going to lose or anything like that, or it's going to be a big battle. There's definitely, I definitely could see ways out of this where it's smooth, relatively smooth sailing. So, but like, but we just have to do it. We just have to go for it, right? Like this only way we're going to find out 100%. I could not agree with that more, just do it. I mean, this is the time to, as Paul says. Houdini Swapi, I think you had your hand up earlier. I just want to kick it to you, just in case you want to add something. Yeah, just like all incredibly, like stronger marks there. I think like, you know, one of the core things, you know, or like the core catalysts, right? I think at least from a political level is, like we all know this is that just like, you know, this is a money, like, this is a money, like, you know, capitalism, economics is really kind of like the nucleus or the epicenter of everything, right? I saw the most taboo industry in the world, you know, the marijuana, the drug business become legalized, you know, because it was an economic play in Canada's year, right? And we just thought that that would never ever happen. And so, you know, like the boundaries at the political level can be pushed if there is the right economic incentive to appeal to a mass market. And so, I just, you know, like bringing this back to privacy, like, you know, in this time off over the Christmas holiday, I was looking at proton mail, right? And I was like, how the hell did these guys convert a hundred million users from Gmail, right? And like I just like went down the absolute, like the biggest of rabbit holes into their whole history and everything, because I was like, you know, who, like, how do a hundred million people care about this so much to the point where they're going to rotate from their existing suite over to proton mail? And really it's like, you know, one of the core things that their founder said was they just, they really made it as frictionless as possible for somebody to just, you know, like rotate their entire suite over same thing with duck, duck, go, right? And like in Google. And I think that that, like, that's kind of on us, like the frictionless piece, like, like, truly, right? Like I see all these protocols getting built in the privacy space. And like, you know, chain level protocol level privacy is, is inherent friction. Like, like, it is, right? Because it's like, if I have all my assets on TRX or I have all my assets on Salona or I have all my assets on Coinbase, you know, like, whatever it is. And you're asking me to, you know, four, five, six, seven click, new wallets, new Dexys, new trading terminals, new, you know, like, private auve, private, you know, private aggregate, Dex aggregator, private, you know, private this private, private axiom, like, private hyper liquid. I just think that that's, like, that is not, like, going from Gmail to proton mail. So I just think, like, the point that I'm trying to make here is just UX and, like, you know, barrier to entry has to be as frictionless as possible. And so, like, the call to action is, yeah, like, for the wallets of the world, for these, you know, for these, like, tier one applications that truly, like, govern the flows in crypto, it's really on them to put privacy, you know, in front of their users. So, like, you know, phantom to have private mode, you know, metamass to have private mode. We had one of our users the other day, they're like, they made a really good analogy. They're like, okay, I, you know, I do most of my transactions within my wallet. And, you know, they're like, that's like my Uber X, right? Like, maybe they have a Dex aggregator or whatever, the piping they have under the hood, whether it's, you know, Thor chain or lifeline, like, whatever it is, right? That's like their Uber X route, right? Like, maybe they're lower costs, you know, like, everyday style of transaction. Maybe it's $50, $100, whatever it is. But what these apps are missing natively is like the Uber Black. And like, that's like the private mode, where it's like, okay, I want to send my buddy a wedding gift, but I don't want him to see that I'm holding, you know, 95% supply of, you know, of whatever. Chad, one, two, three coin, right? And so it's like that, that needs to be available within all the applications that are already kind of dominating crypto. And, and I think once that just becomes again, like a flick of the switch mainstream private adoption, that kind of fulfills like the Gmail, it's a proton mail kind of analogy, where it's just zero frictionless within all the native applications that people are already using. Give them that Uber Black option, that private mode option, that private checkout option at all point of sales, that the bit refills of the world, the Travolas, like that's, you know, and then it just be the market, that's to tame and that the economics becomes so great that it just people will, there's just no world where we can go back. And that's, and that's how it, that's how it happens. And that's how it happens. - I think that's what I said, absolutely. I like that, that really flowed in well into what Kenton and Paul have both said. And I think you guys have made a really compelling argument combined, a 100% degree. I wanna check in with Paul here, we're coming on over an hour and a half, how you doing on time, Paul. Thank you so much for your generosity here with your time. This has been such an awesome space. So many great sound bites from this space. How you doing, Paul? - Okay, can you guys still hear me? - Yes. - Okay, 'cause, app once again said, I disconnected, but I wanna agree that definitely the user experience, just just what we do need to mention, is one of the big hindrances in getting privacy adopted. But I'm curious of your opinion on it being like the option that we add to various apps. I tend to be one of these like, you know, hide privacy, right? It's funny, privacy is a technology to hide what we're doing, but at the same time, I think we should also hide that technology in a sense that it shouldn't be so visible and it shouldn't be an option, rather, it should just be there, without you going through additional effort, without having to click on a setting. And I find that the tools that make it the default are the ones that get adopted. The ones that don't are the ones that don't get privacy adopted and people don't end up using. And so I'm a fan of signal, because there's no way to not be private on signal. Or if you're gonna be not private, you have to go through extra effort. Like, I have to go and screenshot my chat with someone and send it out publicly if I wanted to actually expose it as well, Monero. And there's always that big, you know, Zcash versus Monero debate from the viewpoint of price. Maybe, you know, Zcash had done better for a little while, but I think they're down right now. But from the viewpoint of actual private transactions, Monero wins by far, because there's not really a way to not to do a private transaction. And so, curious in your thoughts on that and that should we focus more on just getting the options in there into the mainstream, or making it where, you know, you convince all these tools to just say, "Hey, implement these privacy features and make that the default." For the extent that technology can do that for the mainstream user and use that as a method of adoption. - Yeah, yeah, Paul, honestly, like really, really well said. I think, yeah, I don't think it has to really be, like black and white or binary. I think the reason why I say that is because, you know, with Houdini Swap specifically, right? Like our private router that we built over the past three years is like just straight up. Like it is more expensive and it's more of like a premium offering and it's, you know, like latency suffers a little bit. Like there's reasons for this, right? Like we, you know, like while we don't do upfront KYC for our users, we do what's called KYT, right? Which means that any sending and receiving wallet addresses are screened in real time for any sort of, you know, AML, ATF, you know, OFAC sanctions, you know, blacklisted wallets for exploit stuff like that. So we've really like to get and to ensure, 100% compliance on our router, we've had to make trade-offs and one of those trade-offs is price and speed. And so that's why I say that, like, you know, if I have a phantom wallet and I only have a couple hundred dollars to just, to only have privacy being like Houdini Swap level privacy enabled within the wallet, it's, you know, like I don't think that that A, like that type of user with just, you know, maybe a couple hundred dollars in MIMAS sets or whatever it is, is like really resonating with privacy. They're too early in their journey. But I think privacy optionality is like, is a really, it's an incredible step for us. Like, yeah, like it would be incredible if there was just, you know, like, like privacy was just adopted and that was just the, like, truly just like the only setting. But as it currently stands for us, like, it is not that analogy of Gmail to proton because it's like, you know, okay, I go to proton, but now it's a bit more expensive and it's a bit slower. And so like we are, we are working 24/7, like that's like where 99.9% of our engineering time goes to, is to get that cost and latency down, you know, to a place where we feel like, you know, this is bulletproof. But as it currently stands, like it is, you know, maybe it's like the uniswap or the jumper or the, you know, the rocket X or the bungee user converting to the Houdini swab, they're going to have, you know, not two minute finality at, you know, a fraction of a basis point, right? Like it is that Uber Black where it's like bit more expensive and it's a premium offering, it caters to the high net worth individual caters to the fidelity digital assets that's trying to leg 20 million into a position and, you know, like, and doesn't want their trading strategies, docs, that it caters to the top trader, you know, on photon or my stroke that, you know, has 40 million across 4,000 wallets and, you know, is worried about their, you know, their personal security and getting targeted or getting fish or getting skinned. So it's just, it's a different user that we cater to, just like over, you know, black caters to a different user to Uber X, but I think just first step, yeah, privacy optionality is massive for us. And I just like, you know, it's like sort of just like ramble here, but I think like the most, like, it's really important to understand that when we were building this, the options that people had for privacy were terrible. Like, absolutely terrible. You go to a centralized exchange, okay, that was like the privacy solution, but you lose custody and you get wrecked on fees, you can only trade 50 tokens, you have to KYC and, you know, your data gets leaked, it's all over the internet and, you know, FTX drugs and your screw, okay? That was one side. The other side was like the, like, let's call it the tornado cash, the coin joins, which is theoretically an incredible privacy solution, right? You put your one marble into a basket of 1,000 marbles, it gets shaken up and yes, you still pull out your marble and it's fungible as one marble, but unfortunately it could have touched, you know, Lazarus groups marbles along the way or, you know, like insert any sort of bad actors in crypto and then your wall is tainted and, you know, like you can't access protocols now, like you're just, you're screwed, okay? So like that wasn't like a feasible solution. And then the other category was like the privacy tokens, right, which is just a very different call to action. It's like bi-Z cash, like, like bi-minero and price, like store value category, commoditized goods. And so that's really why we just built Houdini swap because like there was nothing that was solving for private transactions, like just paying a friend or whatever, like issuing payroll. All these examples that we've already harped on a million times. And so like, you know, when I look at even still today, the landscape of privacy tools that are out there, there's always just these crazy trade-offs that a user has to make. And it's like, you know, I have to bridge assets to a new network that is, you know, low liquidity and I have to download new wallets that are privacy focused. Or, you know, like, like, I have to live on specific, you know, like networks, application. It's just, I don't know, it's not, you know, but it's like Houdini swap, we tried to be as chain as agnostic as possible, you know, like supporting over 120 networks. Like non-custodial, we wanted to support all the wallets. We wanted to just be like, you know, give people this currency exchange style experience with privacy. Like, we're not team Bitcoin, we're not team Solana, we're not team Binance, we're not team base, you know, like, we're just team crypto. And so we really do feel like we are the closest to getting it right. And then, you know, if we can figure out this truly on-chain privacy with compliance, you know, without sacrificing any UX design or any UX, then that is the moment where it can be plugged into every single wallet and it can be the default. But as it currently stands, it needs to be an option because it doesn't cater to every single crypto user in our opinion right now as much as we would like it to. Because they're giving up basis points and they're giving up latency. But in our eyes, we get compliance. So it's just we can't budge on that, unfortunately. - Yeah, that makes sense. And thank you for all that really interesting context or, you know, this privacy conversation that we had really awesome new swap, thank you. And I want to kick it back here, go back to Paul here. 'Cause I don't know how much time you'll have Paul, but how much time do you have left, Paul? If you have to go sooner. - I probably got another 15, 20 minutes. - Okay, perfect. The top of the hour roughly is one. So do you maybe we can kick it to the audience if anyone wants to come up and ask questions, Paul? Is that sound good? - That's always welcome, for sure. I mean, now that's the thing is, I like to say, when you build in the privacy space, you don't actually get a lot of info about what your users are running into. So you have to ask them. And so this is our opportunity to just kind of ask, what do people run into? What do the people care about? Where are we going right? Where are we going wrong? 'Cause we can't determine that from within our own app. 100%. Yeah, the, okay guys, we're going to kick it to the audience here. If you'd like to come up and ask Paul a question, please request now. We will accept you. If you can't speak, would like to ask a question. Maybe you can put in the Thorchain disc telegram, excuse me, or you can go to the main Thorchain profile and go in the comment section underneath for this space. I'll keep an eye on that. Okay, Paul, we only have a, you know, we're running a little short here. We got to go soon. I just want to, is there anything that you would like to talk about that you don't think we covered well in this conversation? Anything you want to get off your chest or any interesting thing you'd like to say? You know, Thorchain itself. I mean, I come here not just to kind of ramble and share my thoughts, but also to learn from other people. I'd love to hear, you know, what has, you know, at least in the past few months, what have people been resonating with in the ecosystem, Thorchain, what have you been asking for? Also, what do they want with their respect to the intersection of Thorchain and apps like Edge? You know, that's what, that's, I honestly, my question, right? And so in addition to just, you know, what do people want out of Edge? But like what's been resonating? And maybe even you guys are more core into Thorchain team, you know, you can, yeah, what have people been resonating with or what have people been asking for in this intersection? 'Cause obviously this is the most relevant. Like, you know, the space is about Edge and Thorchain, but the intersection of the two, what do people want? What kind of integrations have they been asking for as a more regera, defies, it's more staking of assets and bonding? Yeah, what's been resonating for people? - Kenton, do you know what I'd say the last few months, while our own swap interface, that's definitely had been, been top of conversation. I think like featureized for Thorchain limit orders and rapid swaps is kind of what's got, you know. - What are rapid swaps? - So basically, like right now, if you're, if somebody's selling a million dollars of Bitcoin to buy Ethereum, that will go through a streaming swap, like like one transaction. And then if say, someone else comes along and wants to sell a million dollars of Ethereum to buy Bitcoin, that would start going in parallel as its own transaction, its own streaming swap. A rapid swap is when those two trades can cross, can cancel each other out. And you can have the trade settle instantly. So a streaming swap, a T-wap, you know, the trade might take, that million dollar trade might take, let's just say an hour. Don't at me, internet, I'm not sure the time, but let's just say it takes an hour. So you have both those trades happening simultaneously, each one taking an hour, but with rapid swaps, now it'll go through in one block in six seconds. And that is, that, the code is there, but it's not gonna go live and it's a code there, right? It's not gonna go live to the next update. But it wasn't, they wanted to start out limit orders and get that dialed in and fixed at first. And it seems like it is. So the reason everyone's looking forward to this is because, you know, we're hoping expecting it's gonna dramatically increase volume, right? If we basically make it much quicker for these trades to settle, hopefully we'll get more volume out of it. - Yeah, and obviously volume gets volume, volume gets lower prices, which also gets volume. So, no question about it, that's awesome. So would you say that the priority being the faster swaps or the limit orders that people are mostly asking for? Obviously, with the faster swaps, I presume there's not much of an intersection as far as workload for apps like Edge, meaning that they just kind of automatically happen or is there something that we would have to do to get that capacity? Obviously with limit orders, there's a whole user experience that we would have to get built. - Yeah, exactly. For the partners like you, like Edge, you'd have to build some kind of UI for limit orders. But the rabbit swaps that all happens behind the scene, that'll be seamless, basically like streaming swap, right? Like so, you know, you just go place the trade and do what's just happened. I'm trying to think what else for the partners to integrate from the wallet point of view? No, I think just the limit orders. I think everything else to just be automatic. I don't page it, do you want to jump in? Or did you have, can you think of something I can't? Or did he drop? I mean, Patriot's having trouble. - I do have one question. I first started implementing streaming swaps. We tried to get them with a fixed price, right? Where people kind of knew the price that they were gonna get and it was pretty close to what they were getting quoted and we found that swaps failed a bunch. Well, actually, this has happened before streaming swaps existed. With streaming swaps, we thought, okay, well, this should improve things, but we noticed one thing about streaming swaps is if you set a pretty aggressive limit, that as soon as a streaming swap failed one swap, the entire swap would fail. And I remember having this as a major request to the Thorching Devs at the time, which was, can't you just keep the streaming swap going even if one attempt failed? 'Cause it doesn't mean that the rest of them will fail. And that can improve the amount of conversion that these are gets through the streaming swap from an aggressive limit. As opposed to the whole thing just kind of dying, right? Has there been any talk of that? 'Cause I felt like it would be a fairly small change of the protocol, but with a pretty good benefit. - I agree with you. I don't know. I can't say. - You can ask Chad on Thursday. Next Thursday, we can ask you a big question. - Yeah. I suspect part of his answer might be Rapidswops, that that will help solve that, like between limit orders and Rapidswops. 'Cause in theory, if we have an order book, immunotechnically, it's not a traditional order book, but for all test purpose, an order book. If there's lots of limit orders there, combined with Rapidswops, then it might make streaming swaps kind of a moot point because things will just be happening so quickly to begin with. And so we'll see how that evolves, but that's a great question. So with a limit order feature, I mean, in a way, a limit order to some degree isn't very different than a streaming swap with a limit, except for whether or not the limit order can be partially filled. Are limit orders intended to be much like in an order matching exchange, one that can be partially filled? - Yes, they're gonna be, it'll just keep filling until it gets to full fill. - Got it, okay. So in a way that, yeah, if you put in a limit order that's below the current price, right? Like say you're buying, you're buying an asset and you put a limit order in that's below the current price, then it'll be much like a streaming swap, but it will recover. I guess the best way to say it, right? You'll get some at the limit, get some at the limit, some not, and therefore they don't fill, and then you'll get some more at the limit. And so that, if that is his answer, I would love for you guys to ask that question. I'm gonna try to chime in on that Thursday if I can, but if that is the answer, that would achieve that. So even without a UI update, right, without a UI update, we can be placing an order with an aggressive limit that will fulfill, although it doesn't need one other feature, the limit order would need to have an expiration. If we can set an expiration, much like in the streaming swap, you're kind of pseudo setting an expiration, that way it doesn't sit there for days, right? It goes for like an hour, and then after the hour, you got as much as you possibly could, and then it's over and then the swap is done. And so that would kind of be the request and see whether or not that actually replaces the need that I know we've been looking for for a while. - Would love to have you on Thursday space with Chad. I think that's a great opportunity that we need to take advantage of is we have people like you, builders, ecosystems where we have Chad Barefort or we have another dev up there. And you get to ask direct questions, particularly as an integrator of four chains. So yeah, typically the space on Thursday, it's four hours later than the one that this started. So hopefully that's good on Thursday for you, but yeah, absolutely. And if you can't make it, I'll definitely try to get, we'll definitely try to get those answers for you. - Sounds good, cool, I'll definitely try to make it. It's better than this, 'cause this is at like 7 a.m. my time, which can be tough on a weekday, but I have a conflict at 11, but I can probably try to join in maybe half an hour late. - If you do 2 p.m. Eastern on Thursdays. - Right, I feel 11 a.m. - 11 a.m. my time. - Yeah. - Yeah, 11 a.m. my time, which I've a daily standup at that time, but it's not very long, it's like half an hour. So most of the time I can join in afterwards. - Absolutely, and hopefully you understand that you're always welcome. I mean, I wish we'd be great if we had more devs, partners, you know, other integrations, you know, I'm up and ask questions too. I'd be great, I'd love to. Even it's just for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, you don't have to be there the whole space, you can come in and leave. - Yeah, sounds good, we'll try. - But to go back to your original question, what's going on in the door chain, people talking about, excited about. I don't know if Patriot, you had anything you want to add to that. - You know, it changes a lot. I do my best to keep my pulse on what the community once, our community has grown quite a lot, particularly now that we have this whole Roger and Applayer, really cool things are coming there. Paul, I don't know, but lending, and I know it's a bit of a hot topic right now, good, but it's like the, it's like Aave, it's a traditional form of lending, where there's liquidations and stuff like that. It's what's been existed for years, but that's about to get lifted up there. So, you know, the community's really excited on that. The most recent thing, and we've talked about, so I don't want to be boring, but it's privacy. I'm seeing a lot of people in door chain really start asking, like, okay, now that Maya Protocol has Zcash, right? And we're going to get Zcash to at some point. But, you know, let's talk about Monero again. Let's, we have a node operator. I'll keep them anonymous, but they're advocating that we take the old code from Black Protocol, which was our first attempt to adding Monero to Doorchain. The libraries are now more secure on the Monero side. And so, there's some voices saying, hey, let's go for it. Let's get the pieces moving. Let's get Monero added, decentralized, non-KYC, permissionless access, real layer one Monero. So, that's what I'm seeing right now, as the most recent thing. - Yeah, I can't champion that effort enough. I know there's people on our team that keep reminding me, is yeah, I keep hearing Doorchain's adding Monero. Monero, I'm like, I don't know where that's at, but I would definitely strongly champion that effort. I know there's strong interest in that. One thing that I feel like hasn't been talked about enough in the DEX space is whether or not there is an effort, a technology, papers, protocols to implement more private swapping itself on the DEX, meaning not associating the source transaction to the destination transaction. And it's one that I've talked about internally within our team on how that could be done. With, of course, there's trade-offs much like, you know, Judy Swap was saying, things will go slower, might not have as good of liquidity, but I know it's, you know, there's probably a few ways, but it's definitely possible. Has that all been talked about or requested? - I'm hoping that what I'm about to say is topical. It's what you're saying. So, this is something that's really cool that's coming on the app layer. It's called Redacted. And you can think of like a Zcash model where you have, you know, shielded Zcash is in this big pool, right, and things go in, things go out, and that is the obbuscation, if you will, right. And so, what you would have on the app layer, because on the app layer, there'll be secured assets, right? There'll be a IOE redemption that are forging being the third, your custodian of that. You'll have a privacy element that's similar to like the Zcash model, I'm super sorry if I'm butchering this guy, I'm doing my best here. But essentially, you can use any DeFi primitive you want that's coming to the app layer, lending, perps, leverage, money, markets, whatever we have on their prediction markets with the secured assets. And you'll have this ability to toggle on and off this reduction functionality that'll somewhat resemble the ways like shielded Zcash, right. And so, privacy not only comes to being able to swap into it, but whatever DeFi primitive that you want to conduct can also be private as well. Permissionless, no KYC, all open source, and the one thing too that's really important that distinguishes, I think, the app layer is that there is no information hidden behind a mirror. There's no behind a curtain. There's no wizard of loss. Everything is fully auditable. Everything's open source. There is no like liquidation in your wondering why, like why the price Oracle functioned the way it did, maybe like on a Binance or something else. It is legit, 100% the real deal that's happening. Does that somewhat butter your biscuit or is there another element that you want, Paul? - Maybe I just need to understand that biscuit a little bit better. So, I mean, does it achieve the, is there a way to achieve the goal? Like, you know, I want to swap Bitcoin to Ethereum. There isn't a trace knowing that this Bitcoin address that source of funds ended up becoming Ethereum, right. And then this Ethereum received on this specific Ethereum transaction ID isn't tied to the Bitcoin transaction, which obviously unfortunately, it's crystal clear, right. That this Bitcoin became that Ethereum advice versa. But is that redacted layer, something that could achieve that end goal, right. If that's the end goal, I don't want you two fans who would like, you know, I'm going to do these DeFi operation, blah, blah. I just want to be able to do a swap, right. It's something as simple as a swap, but not have the source and destination of the swap, but not hide to each other. - On the app layer, and Kenton, please correct me if your understanding is different. But my understanding is, yes, you'll be able to swap secured asset for secured asset, and you can turn on that redacted functionality, right. So, and yeah, that would give you privacy for swapping. That is my understanding. I'd love to hook you up with the regirin guy, but you've got to do the deep dive on this. I don't know if you've talked to pragmatic monkey or Hans or any of those guys, but now what we're building over here, it's really the real deal. So, yeah. - Very cool. That's what it can achieve, you know, and with a decent experience, then, yeah, that's the thing I would definitely be excited about. - Yeah, I'm glad you keep saying that, that a decent experience, 'cause really, that's the core, getting the UX. That is so important. That's how we on-run people. We have to make the UX so good. So I'm so glad to keep parking on that, because that is so true. Kenton, I'll kick it to you. Is there anything you think I'm missing? Did I describe anything in accurately? Yeah, it's one kick it to you real quick. - Well, yeah, redacted will be on the app layer, right? So, I think what Paul's referring to is the base layer. So, yeah, I would have to be on the app layer, yes. - Yeah, so when you're swapping rap assets, secure assets on the app door chains app layer, that will be private with redacted. But if you're doing like a basic layer, one-to-layer, one swap on door chain base layer, that's like, I think what Paul's referring to, where you see everything. Now, Chad has mentioned something about like kind of making all swaps and memo lists, where with the memo list swaps, it's recording less information, which would also, which would help increase some privacy. - Yeah, but that's still fully traceable. Like even if it just makes it a little bit harder. - Yeah, so even a memo list swap doesn't quite achieve that goal of someone wanted to, you just have to look at the Thor chain blockchain itself. And then on Thor chain, there's a record. So, I don't think that achieves the same level of privacy that I think we're kind of envisioning. But yeah. - I don't think so either. Yeah, I think kind of like privacy in the base of one-to-or chain. My understanding is that it can't happen because everything has to be auditable, right? Like everything has got to balance, right? And you've got to, all the nodes, everybody has to be able to read everything. And so, this is one of the defenses or justifications for having a mineral pool, for example, is that the privacy doesn't actually occur on Thor chain, like the privacy would be happening on the mineral protocol. So, in theory, Thor chain should be fine because there's nothing, everything's public, right? It can't hide anything because of the way Thor chain works. So, and I've not really heard any, my understanding is it has to be like that. It can't, we wouldn't be able to introduce privacy right at the base layer. Yeah, because it exists on the real layer one, right? And this means real, we run real damons of each layer one assets on Thor chain. So, Bifrost code, all that stuff. As far as I understand, again, as a non-dev, it's just something that just would not be technically possible 'cause it has to be fully auditable. And it's beholden to the layer one itself. Now, maybe there are some tweaks to Thor chain that this could change in the future, some distant time down the line. But just the way that I understand Cosmos SDK is just, that's just not possible. What the app layer it is, right? And at that point, it's really just a UX issue. It's an additional step. But, you know, that's the team, that's what we're gonna do with marketing. Go ahead, Paul. - Well, you know, actually this discussion, and you mentioning that, you know, that's why, you know, integrating Monero is keys 'cause that can become the privacy layer, right? Like someone could go from Bitcoin to Monero and Monero to ETH and effectively disassociate the Bitcoin from the ETH. And then from the viewpoint of usability, I think that the missing piece is having a fast Monero in order to make it about the same amount of time to settle as if you went directly from Bitcoin to ETH. And unfortunately, all of the privacy chains that I think are on the radar for integration are currently too slow. So Monero being like, look, 10 confirmations, 20 minutes, you know, Zcash, you know, even though it's two-minute confirmation times, they say don't trust that, you know, they're looking like 30-minute settlement as well. So if there were, and actually I do know of one chain that will have fast proof-of-stake settlement, that if integrated could be that privacy layer to go between the different transparent chains. And currently I'm a big fan of Zeno, or Zeno, however you pronounce it. And that in 2026 on their current roadmap is looking at going full proof-of-stake where you'll have that fast finality in seconds. And it could then be that layer to, and heck, you know, I got to think about this a little bit more carefully and talk to our developers, but it would be possible for, you know, an app layer, well, basically an app such as Edge to obfuscate that, where when someone wants to go a big coin to ETH, the app can automate the transaction going through another asset such as Zeno first, and hiding, you know, what's the source and destination asset and effectively giving that end result in a two-step process. But I think that fast finality is a key piece to make that a bit simpler, and to give a better user experience to the users. - Yeah, I've talked to Zeno on spaces with Joel, Joel, many times, great project. And yeah, I didn't realize how fast their blockchain, their block time was. And so actually, that's a really interesting idea to make there, Paul, like all kinds of lights went off in my head. I really like what you said there. That makes a lot of sense to me. We do have a new speaker. I believe we're relating to Edge here, maybe. Simply bema, did you want to check your mic there? Wanna make sure we get you in before Paul has to go. Simply, if you were trying to speak, I do not hear you. I'll give you a few more seconds. I understand it is probably not your fault. It is X-Ruggy-New. As it always is. - It happens. - Yeah, okay, we'll come back in a second. Go ahead, Paul. - Oh, I just wanna say, thanks a lot for having me. I do have to bounce out right now. It's been a great chat. I love what you guys are building up Thorechan, been a big fan for quite some time. And so let's keep the space moving. I appreciate you. And you are not, and don't remove yourself from the equation. You also help build Thorechan the way it is by, and so important in the early days for helping us, man. So I appreciate you. - Cool, cool. Thanks a lot, everyone. - Thanks, Paul. - Cheers. - Take care, brother. Kenton, this has been a great space. I have had so much fun with this space. What a great conversation we've had. I really loved it. Should we maybe give one last call to the audience? And if not, maybe rapper Amir, what do you think? What do you say? - Yeah, I just approved somebody. Mike just came up here. Mike. - Oh, Mike, what's going on, brother? - Hey, going good. No, I love the space. I always appreciate you guys. I missed most of it. I'm coming in the tail end. But every time I see you in a space, Patriot, I'm like, all right, I gotta check this out. I'm actually super interested in privacy. I've always been big on the right to repair individual, digital privacy, all that kind of stuff. And getting into crypto, it seems like Minero has been leading the charge as far as a privacy option. And we had this scary destabilization from this cubic project that's just cannibalizing projects and destroying things. So I've been super interested to see what people come up with. I know like midnight has been an interesting option coming up, kind of looking at things. But I was just listening to you guys talk. I don't know a lot about this stuff, but I was just wondering, would it be possible to make like a standing pool, like a trusting pool of funds, you know, kind of like a liquidity, just a pile of liquidity, right, of different tokens? And then if you initiate a transaction, the transactions are standardized in amounts, right? So let's say it did like $10 increments or something like that. So that if you were selling $100, it would send 10 individual transactions. And then once it goes into that pool, out of the pool, you create a new wallet that it sends out part of the transaction and then maybe some do a different wallet, but just retains custody for that one user, right? Like which would be a big layer of trust for the network, you know, as a user of the network, you're trusting a system to handle wallet creation and management for you potentially. But my thought is you just offescape through just having funds in, funds out, they all look the same and divided so that you can't just look at the amounts going in and the amounts going out and match what's what. But I'm just kind of thinking like concepts like that, you know, like I'm sure they've been considered and then the mechanisms and weaknesses of it understood. I just curious if you guys had any thoughts on things like that, that even though you can't do certain things with the protocol itself, with how the validators work, is it possible to do something where you offescape just through some kind of like pooled fund mechanism, something like that? - That's sort of what the redact it's gonna be on the app layer as far as I understand, right? Listen, you have XRP, right? You hook up your Zaman wallet, you get secure, so your native XRP goes on thour chain. I guess converted into a secured asset, that's on the app layer now. And then you have a toggle option that then you can make a, it's kind of like a shielded ZCash, right? And then each one of these secured assets have their own pool, that is, air quotes shielded and then you can do whatever you want with that. And then you're obviscated in that manner, you're, it's, you know, it's cryptid, whatever you want to say. You get your privacy that way. In the exact design that you're speaking of, I'm not sure, but this would be an interesting conversation for the regir desks, because here's the thing with the app layer, we can build almost anything we want to build, right? It's just building what system makes the most sense optimally. Like this, this is a system you described as that, the optimal way to do privacy, or is it the redacted way where you have these individual shielded pools of the secured assets, and then you can move in between them, like what is the optimal manner of accomplishing that? Yeah, interesting conversation, we're sure. And by the way, Mike, I just so you know, I don't want to derail the conversation, but, you know, lending is about to go full ham on the app layer. So there will be no cap. So native layer one, XRP loans, my friend, they are coming. And it's going to be like auvet, you know, liquidations, things like that. You can choose your own metrics, your own risk. So something for you guys to keep out, I know it might just be the examine wall now. I know Joey wall another and more popular, but we'll get working on that. So go ahead, your hands raised. Oh no, my hands down, that's a glitch. Oh, accept that, yeah. Yeah, I think on the privacy stuff, yeah, it's exciting about that coming on. I'll be interested in watching that. But yeah, like I think the most secure data is the data that doesn't exist, right? So, you know, anything that gets rid of, is not obfuscating data, but if you have systems, which I think on, if you're talking about the layer one, you know, it's going to have its constraints there, and that's where things get tricky. So it seems like for most of these chains, obfuscations kind of the game in town, right? It just depends on what level of complexity it takes for whatever actor to have a system that is able to monitor it, right? Which you might be able to do some things with like floating metrics in your obfuscation, where it's constantly changing how it does things. So a simple bot that's tracking one specific method wouldn't work, you know, it have to move around. But yeah, I'm interested to jump in some spaces. If you guys are talking about what you're doing on the application layer to solve that problem, 'cause I think that would be extremely beneficial. And if door chains can crack that and provide another privacy option, that would be huge for all of crypto. So definitely a big supporter of that if people are working on it. - Absolutely, yeah, I think next time we get, I'm gonna do a, we gotta get together with the Regira and just really see what we can pull from that. 'Cause I like what you're going with the idea. I 100% agree that privacy now is gonna be the standard, I think it's coming. So I'm really excited to get ahead of it and get going on it. Real quick, I wanna see, I'm gonna give simply another shot at the mic, simply bema or byma. Sorry if I got your name incorrect. Go ahead and try your mic. And if it doesn't work, I'm sorry, X sucks. Give you a few seconds here. - Okay. - Hey, Patriot, I have to get going myself. - Oh, I understand, yeah. We'll wrap the space up then. - Okay. - I gotta get going too. Okay, anything else Kenton before we wrap up, anything else you wanna say? - I think that's good, I think it's great. Appreciate the poll coming on and everyone's time and yeah, we'll be in touch next week. - Yeah, and thank you Hedini Swap, thank you Mike and simply bema, come up next time, we'll get you buddy. So sorry, and guys, what we're gonna be doing the next weekend, Saturday, we're gonna have four wallet with Pedro, we're gonna give him another shot. The week after that, 24th, let's exchange. I'm a narrow centralized exchange with the Dean, something we've talked about before, adding it potentially, very exciting conversation guys. So keep on, you're out for that. And I hope you guys have a rest, blah, blah, blah, blah. I hope you guys have a great rest of your weekend and we'll catch you on the next one. Take care everyone. Bye-bye.