Thom Bettridge and the Cult of SSENSE

I've been meaning to start a podcast for like five years and just like and every time I do I'm like it's too late to start a podcast. My friend starts a podcast that's really successful. So you guys will be like the new ones on the left. College of brand. This is the Cult of Brand. The podcast where we unravel the mysteries of brand, marketing and the Holy Creative doctrine. We are your conduits. You are our following and our guests are divine truth tellers offering us their wisdom on the worship of their chosen idol. I am Melissa Bonanno and I am well mayor. This week we have the sacred honor of speaking to Tom Betridge. Tom currently leads creative and content essence. Previously he was the editor in chief at high-smabiety and before that Tom served as executive editor of O32C and interview mag to of the best publications by opinion currently in the space. But he's also known for throwing some of the hottest fits the upper your sides ever seen. Hi Tom. Hey Tom. Very nice introduction. Nice to be potting with you guys. Yeah. Pleasure to pot. Pleasure to pot indeed. Thanks for worshipping with us today. Let's just dive right into it. Will do you want to kick us off? Yeah I think it would be great to understand what characterizes in your opinion some of the best fashion or luxury brands that have a cult like following. There's any commonalities between them. In that field I think and I've spoken about this a bit before and written about it is that you kind of have to go like through door A or door B. So either you need to be super super mass and very accessible or you need to swing hard in the cult direction. I think in fashion today there's there's sort of not really much of a middle ground between those two. I wrote about this a bit like earlier this year because you saw for example like Farell being like appointed at Louis Vuitton which I think falls in the sort of like mass celebrity camp and that is very much part of like a playbook that luxury brands are dabbling with or experimenting with or kind of honing and then I think on the opposite end of the spectrum you see a lot of success coming from like indie brands with sort of like cult like followings and sort of like very cult like leaders in a way like they're Rick Owens, Tom Brown etc. But then even like the way that you see like the Gucci rebrand it's very much about this kind of like cult of sort of like Tom Ford era you know like kind of like the fashion Twitter intelligentsia for example. So I think we're seeing a lot of like cultishness but I think it's in the context of kind of they're being sort of like one route or the other. Yeah. So then in that context is there a brand that comes to mind that you feel has done a really good job of cultivating lore right now? You know for me as somebody like works in marketing in this sort of like content space the entire proposition of that is the idea that you know maybe you go shopping once a month if you're like a real freak and like buy a lot of clothes but if you're on the gram 365 days a year you're telling stories 365 days a year if you're a brand and that's how you kind of like keep people coming back to your watering hole even if they're not shopping. So I think like brands like they kind of all have to be involved in lore in some way or another. I think like Tellfar is really good at it. In the sense also that like there's this kind of like thread where you're almost like watching each episode of the show and it just gets more and more extreme. I think that also like him and his like team have done a really good job of like almost telling the story as it goes or like self-methologizing. They did add like a couple years ago that I reference a lot because it's it's kind of like a in a way almost like a biography of the brand and it's kind of like it's kind of like written in a second person. It's like try starting a brand this like it comes to like every stage of the story and so I think it's like I think it's interesting because it kind of shows that in a way they are almost like self-aware of like it breaks the wall in that way. Exactly. Yeah. That's it. So that actually brings me to something that you said I believe called merch tainments. And how did you like two years ago? Yeah, don't forget the T. Yeah, yeah, honestly I should have trademarked it because it got like ripped off as an idea by so many people but called like fashion tainment or called like whatever. So I probably should have actually trademarked it rather than just like typing trademark next to it whenever with that op-ed. Fair enough. Do you want to break down a little bit what that op-ed was? So yeah, it kind of it kind of plugs into what I was talking about just now where it's like we live in a time where brands are asked to not only to sell us things but to engage us. You know, sort of like the alpha predators of the fashion world are kind of the ones who have progressed like the fur of the saddest you know, so at the time I wrote that it was right after Blanciaga came out with her own Simpson's episode, Tellfar just launched Tellfar TV. You know, and so there's this very clear sense that engagement and like kind of creating a kind of entertainment narrative was now becoming like kind of a thread within luxury. It's really interesting though because I think in a lot of ways, fashion's kind of like backpedaled from that a bit. I feel like that's kind of like or not even backpedaled but I think that certain people are kind of almost like scared of being too engaging now. Like that's why I think like quiet luxuries become such a thing. What do you think started that shift? Well, I think you just saw a lot of like you saw like a lot of buzz being generated around brands and then it gets that saturation point where it's like locomonia, it becomes too mass and so I think that like that conversation earlier this year about like quiet luxury, I think was felt very much like almost like a kind of like reactionary swing against that and it's kind of like oh no like let's be about if you know you know, let's be about like being undetectable and I think the reality of it like economically was that brands were finding like hey we're getting a shitload of attention but the attention isn't necessarily leading to purchases or like strengthening a relationship with like the customers that we really want. Okay, so that actually reminds me a lot of the work you did with Boss Consulting Group when you're at high snob. How Gen Z were making their purchases in luxury category far earlier in that inspiration phase rather than later down the customer journey. Yeah, is that still true or have you seen a shift in that? I think it's definitely still true from that of that generation. You know, I think the idea there was that you know there used to be this really long journey between like when you're inspired and you see something in a magazine to when you're like at Macy's buying the shirt. You know, I mean that there was like a lot of things that could happen in that journey but now I think we kind of live in this zone where it's like hey you know I like these tabbies that I saw let me buy them on essence. You know, so it's like I think like this kind of like visual discovery and shopping are very much like intertwined. You know, that's why like for us like the essence social it's like it's designed to be like the kind of account that you'd follow to like discover stuff and like joke with your friends and like pop off in the comments section because like that's how people are actually using social media, you know, so rather than being like one degree separated from that we're just sort of like entering that chat. Well, and your social media presence is one that people have tried to mimic repeatedly because it is so successful. Did you spearhead that initiative where you kind of the one that said, hey, let's find a way to make this a more communal space? Yeah, that was like definitely part of my mandate when I started. I think prior our social media was very it was very structured so it was about kind of like presenting products in a very similar way. It had kind of like a modernist vibe where everything had like the same lettering on top of it, etc. Like 99% of other brand socials. Exactly. It's like putting like a grid, you know, I mean market it, etc. So I think we kind of shook things up and I say we because I think, you know, month after I started Steph Yachtka who at the time was a vogue came on board and has been leading social for us. So it's really been kind of like a collaborative effort. But I think the vision was really to just be like a place where we're talking back to the audience and creating conversation rather than being this kind of rigid wall. This is showing people stuff. Would you call what you create in memes or would you say it's a level above that? I think a lot of it is. Yeah, for sure. I think like a lot of its memes, but then also, you know, we do other stuff that's just like content created for the context of social. I think a lot of it is also like journalism, but in a very kind of lowercase J type of way, you know, because I think that also taking advantage of the fact that like there's essence buyers at every single showroom at Fashion Week that we're at every single show is like almost a way of like transmitting information to the people. So I think like some of its memes, some of it's like journalism in hard quotes and other pieces of it are just like, you know, kind of just like creative experiments, you know. Well, I guess the role of humor in fashion has also changed really drastically, even thinking about fashion show invites in particular speaking to fashion shows. You've gotten some great points. I go on in the past. Oh, yeah. I mean, those are amazing. I used to like run because I used to send them to my hotel in Paris. And when it came, I would just like run from like the front desk to my room so I could be like the first person to film online. Mostly for high-stocks at the time. That was like the kind of thing that like everyone wanted to see. Like what was the new Glentiyaga invite? Was it like a broken iPhone? Was it it, does the iPhone turn on? All these funny questions, I think, the stack of cash, all of it. Then we're really built a world in Belenciaga. What are you out of all of the fashion invites you've received today? Is that your favorite? The broken phone was really good. I think just because I think it created so much conversation and people are like, "It's not sustainable." It is sustainable because it's recycled and it does it turn on, does it not turn on? If it turns on, can you put your SIM card in it? I think it just kind of, I think, really good gags like that. I judge them based on the depth of conversation or maybe not even depth, but extent of conversation they can create. That was definitely a really elegant idea that just bore a lot of fruit. Are there any other more unique forms of distribution like that that you've seen or interesting ways of drops or releases or can information out? You mentioned some of the work I was doing with Boston Consulting Group at High Stove. I think that something, a really interesting project we were working on was just looking at how the internet was changing around the time of blockchain and stuff. We all know the state of where that's at. You whispered blockchain. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm going to talk about blockchain and the podcast right now." No, but I think at the time the NFT thing was popping. Yeah. Yeah, fashion. Fashion. Fashion. Yeah, because every meeting I'd go to, they'd be like, "Hey, Tom, should I make an NFT? What do you think?" Every fashion exec I spoke to for six months was asking me about NFTs, whatever. What I found the most interesting about that whole NFT phenomenon was that it felt like it was ushering in a new phase of online community. Then we described it in this report where things were shifting from this supermass tick-tock Instagram era of these charlie to merely level influencers. These really niche pockets where it's 10,000 guys on a discord talking about their apes. That was a standard for a lot of other things. My friends who have a podcast and a media network called New Models, they have a discord and they don't write stuff as a group on their discord and do all these things. There's all these different pockets that remind me of a really early internet, but becoming like a thing again. For example, even group chats. The way that people are more active on their group chat than they are on their social media, I think it's telling of the desire to be in these more closed pockets. I think that goes back to this cult thing because you want to put yourself in a place where you're super aligned with people and can make jokes and people get it. You're not going to get canceled if you say it wrong or whatever. We've seen that across many of the brands we work with too. The desire to build more niche communities across discord or group chats or find ways to bring people closer together. Even some folks that are having their community inform their product development and their product innovation so it becomes this collective moving a brand forward, it's unbelievable. Yeah, look, so let's get a little bit further indoctrinated. Can you tell us about your time at the Optum Health Center of San Diego? Whoa, that's a deep cut. So yeah, this is a place I've been there twice called the Optum and Health Institute in San Diego. It's, look it up if you're interested in going. It's like basically, it's in a sort of like what looks like a sort of like abandoned motel outside of San Diego. Go on. And you go there. My partner recommended to me, she's actually been like way more than I have even. And you go there and you basically kind of just eat sprouts and go to classes about digestion. The two times I went were like between jobs. Like in that rare like six week notice period where you kind of like don't really have anything to do. And so I sort of needed your reset. So I went out there and just kind of like would listen to music and like not eat food and get like colonics every day and like do like you do like wheatgrass shots multiple times a day. So it's a very kind of like old school like not post new age but like fully in new age. And it's like really like it's like not hip at all. Like it's like I've got the average age probably like in the 50s there. It's very like it's very boomer. Is this the closest you've gotten to joining a call? I think so. I think if they got me to like live there forever, which there I think there are people who like work there and like just like in it forever for sure. Or people like come back and volunteer. I think I could definitely get deeper in it. I think the issue for me though with a place like that is that I just start to feel understimulated. You know, like I kind of need like like even like the last time I went like my my second week that I started going to kickboxing classes. And they tell you like not even like leave campus or like and they tell you not to work out because you're like so low on calories. But I was just like I'm so fucking bored. I was like I'm going to take this like MMA class. Let's and like standing. So so I think like for me like I would need a cult that's like a little bit more stimulating. Is this just like an experiment you did? It seemed or do you constantly put yourself in situations like this? Well, you know, I like to sort of like radically unwined in certain respects or like to create kind of like. You know, I know this is a way like creating like punctuation marks in my life. You know, so like you go somewhere, you like your body changes. You kind of get in this like weird state where you kind of it creates kind of like a reset. Like I like I have for a little while is really into like Wim Hof. Yeah. Which which I think like in a smaller way is trying to give me Wim Hof energy in some way. Yeah. I mean, I've actually interviewed Wim Hof before too or he's incredible. Like we can do a whole other podcast and about talking to Wim Hof. But it's almost like a similar thing because it's like when you when you go in like the ice bath like Wim Hof style, like you kind of like completely lose your ego for a bit and then you like get it back pretty quickly once you like warm up. But I think in a way for me like these kind of like retreats are almost like a sort of like more extreme way of doing that somehow. A hard reset considering generally your experiencing chaos at a very high level. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I have this like kind of anxiety that I'm sometimes like putting on like miles in my brain that I can't take back. That like you know because I've read about like for example like astrophysicists and like mathematicians they like peak at a certain age. Like I think like in their late 20s or 30s is like when you look at like breakthroughs from like people's brains like that. Like it's usually in their late 20s or early 30s. It's just like raw intellectual power. And so I've ever since I started like thinking about that. I sort of like okay like actually the take really good care of not just like my body but also like my brain so that it has like it's not like fried. So you're trying to do a hard brain wipe so you can go back and put more miles on the brain. So I like put it on ice a little bit like not like full cryo but like kind of like a little little ice bath. Yeah. Would you cry yourself for the future? I don't think so. It's funny. I talk about this a lot because I think a lot of people in my life you know like they fear death which I think is a common human feeling. Like those people. Yeah. For me like I kind of I'm kind of like okay with it. Like I find it to be like more scary that I would like go to sleep and then wake up and like an undisclosed time period. Like I think I would rather just like kick the bucket than have to like deal with deal with like that like kind of rest of your life. So I think like based on the brain wipe another expression I feel like on the exact inverse of that is the party you just threw for Fashion Week in New York. Definitely a type of brain wipe for sure. What was the inspiration for the SNS JPG party? You know like so basically so we were helping launch like this new collaboration between John Paul Goethe and Noles and you know the idea we created a really fun campaign. That was creative directed by Georgia Pendleberry where we have these models wearing these kind of like super realistic like anime masks on the street which was really fun but then for New York Fashion Week we wanted to throw a party just to kind of like I don't know bringing the collaboration to life connect with people like have a good time whatever but it really snowballed into this kind of like really huge kind of page six type of thing because we have the Cominian celebrities coming but I mean the idea from my end was that I just wanted to create the type of party that I would want to go to you know which is sort of like describe the you know well I lived in Berlin for like my 20s so I was is like, okay, raw industrial space, really good electronic music, maybe a smoked machine or two, and then like, Basta. It's like Italian cooking. It's like if you get the ingredients, right? You're just like, okay, Matsarella tomato, some basil, olive oil, like, chaff. It was like a little bit like the party version of that, where, I mean, even the VIP booth were like all of like people like offset and dojicat and stuff where like, it was only just like the same shitty floor, but with like, like, kind of like riot barricades around. So I think we tried to just like keep it as simple as possible and I think, you know, in an era of very over-engineered parties, I think people are kind of like drawn to that. - I think it was one of the, in our opinion, one of the biggest successes of the week. I mean, that stood out so much and see of the other events that were being thrown that had a high polish that felt a little inauthentic. People seemed really happy with the way yours came together. - Thank you. Yeah, New York Fashion Week, it's a bit of a funny one 'cause it's like, it kind of is having like an identity crisis right now, where it's like, it's sort of like the sex in the city reboot where it's like, yeah, where it's like, make it like the 2000s again, like, please, you know, 'cause I think a lot of the really great designers, like from the city, like, they've been, they've been moving on to showing Europe, et cetera. And like, I just think that like, there's a bit of a question mark around like, what New York's role in fashion is right now. And so I think that that kind of cultural anxiety plays itself out in the sort of like branding that takes place during the event 'cause it's like, it doesn't feel as big as Paris, but it's also has that kind of like, New York set of expectations. So, no, so I was glad that, so that's why like, you know, we went into it and we're just like, okay, let's just throw like a really good party and like see where that takes us, you know. - Speaking of getting something weird, you've recently, - I think it's so great. - Taking a step into styling more. - Yeah, let's spark that whole journey. - Well, it's a funny thing, like, I think, you know, as things like progress in like career, like for example, while I was at high snob, was when I first decided to try doing styling, I got to a point where like, we were shooting so much and like, to like, there would be shoots where like, my involvement would be like, briefing the team and then like seeing the pictures when they came, like a couple weeks later, you know what I mean? 'Cause I would just like, we were shooting like, 30 things a month sometimes. - Since November, right? - Since December. - So, I really wanted to do something that would get me more like hands-on like the material, like making pictures and I'm like the worst photographer ever. So I decided that styling would probably be the way to do it. And also, like, I just started having a couple of ideas that like felt like ideas that could only be expressed through like styling somehow. And that's like kind of like my philosophy about genre in general is that like, you have the idea and then you're like, okay, that idea is like, maybe it's a magazine and maybe it's a book, maybe it's a t-shirt, maybe it's like styling, maybe it's a picture. You know, so I kind of believe in like, letting the idea become what it should be rather than like thinking of the end result first. - How would you say that you're styling process knowing that and knowing that you kind of wait for the idea to manifest in whatever way it's going to? Do you have a signature Tom styling look, or do you generally, if you have a client or a specific project, does that become a totally different process? - Yeah, I think for me, like, I almost think of styling less as the way a lot of people do it and more about like, it's almost like using current fashion to create like a wardrobe or like a character. And I kind of learned that a lot from like watching like really good stylist do it where it's they're not like, okay, like what was in the shows? They're like, I love this picture of blah, blah, blah from 40 years ago, like how do I recreate this like persona or recreate this feeling? And so that's a little bit like how I do it, you know, and so I can kind of like, like for example, like one of the first celebrity styling thing I did ever was like for bread with bread and freezer for interview magazine. And so I thought about kind of like, you know, because he's kind of like a sizable guy, like, you know, like has like a big frame, like built like kind of like a linebacker and he kind of reminded me of like some of these like, kind of like New York dudes who used to hang out with my dad back in the 90s who like, would like walk out with their daily news and like, like drink like a bodega coffee with in their like trench coat and whatever. And so I kind of just tried to like recreate that person using fashion. So it's like, okay, cool. Like let me find like a loropeana like outfit, but like throw a Yankees hat on it. So it feels a little bit more like neighborhoody and like kind of get like, you know, just kind of like hit all of those different angles and sort of like. So it's like I think in a way like more like character driven than like about making new fashion ideas, which I think goes what a lot of styles do to really great effect. I just it's never been my like MO to do that. I mean, I feel like speaking of the inspiration stuff, you mentioned earlier how much you shot at high snob, you're doing a lot of essence like the mass that you did in that JPG collab were some of my favorite things I've seen ever. How are you either like working with the team, source and inspiration, what's that process look like? You know, it's funny because like back when I was at at our O32C, like I did a, like a panel, like a school and someone was like asking me, like what do editors do? Or like there's some questions like that. I was like, editors just email day. And it's a little bit like what creative direct against you, like because you're, you're basically like creating a network of people that you admire, that you trust, and then like figuring out how to like steer things in a direction that kind of fits your brief or fits your, the needs of what you're doing. So I'm sort of just like a conduit between that where it's like a kind of, you know, I know like how social media works. I know how like traffic and all those things work. And then I sort of know how like making an image works. And I sort of like try to pull all those things together and kind of make them align. So it's a lot of just like talking. And I think something I learned like from my first boss, the founder of O32C is that you really should like over brief good people. You know, I mean, like it would be like, like we'd have like my first magazines there like we do call it like someone like call your shore. And she'd be like, I want you to shoot based on like this person. I would be like, great. Like we'll see it when it's done. You know, I mean like we would just be like, like just go and do your thing. Like, you trust the right people, especially in editorial context. Like it's about just like letting people cook. And so I've sort of brought that into like a commercial context as well. Obviously there's like more boxes to check. I was gonna say there's a lot more tension. I feel like within the commercial. Yeah. But you got to kind of ride it out through the same, you know, because if you're like taking really talented people and like over managing them, you might as well be working with like cheat people, you know, or like, or like people who just could like execute, you know, and I'm really not, I don't really have any curiosity or desire to do that. I mean, what's some of the best advice I got actually from you at a launch, like a year or two ago, was that no more than half of your meetings or internal meetings? Yes. Big, big facts. And that was a piece of advice I got. Like a couple of years ago or like four or five years ago was like, if you're a creative leader and you're meeting with people in your company, more than outside your company, you're like doing something wrong. And what, what was the rationale behind that? I think the rationale is that like, you know, it's very easy to get sucked into like the work culture over where you are. Um, and by the way, like that's not to knock it at all. Like I think like I know a lot of really amazing people, manager is really amazing operational people who are like constantly in the weeds with their team. But I think when you're in the business of like creating images and bringing energy from outside the company to a company, you got to kind of like divorce yourself a little bit from the internal and like make sure you're constantly like exploring your curiosity out in the world. You know, and I think that something that happens is that you get bogged down and like the internal structure and you start to sort of like lose that verb for like meeting people and exploring. Um, so even like, like I encourage like people who work for me to do like kind of like creative walkabouts, like just go to museum or like visit the studio of an artist that you like or whatever. Don't just like hang out on Instagram and like, like go to zoom meetings because like everyone and no everyone else is doing that. So you're not going to ever ever see something new if you're doing that. I think that's such a great point. And we often talk about how, you know, the hard thing with images on the internet and social media, Pinterest, etc. Is it kind of creates a creative vacuum? Right. Like a homogenous, like a homogenous kind of one specific style, one, say with this, do you, how do you motivate your team? because a lot of creatives at least from my experience can be kind of insular. How do you motivate them to go out and seek these new creative opportunities? - I think it's just about like tapping into why people want to do this in the first place. I think in the creative world, it's about this thrill of the chase of doing something weird or exciting or engaging or whatever and somehow getting that to be part of the context of commerce. Like there's a weird kind of like bank heist quality to that when you get it right. We're like, I can't believe in like, this is my job. I can't believe that this is marketing. You know, I think that's like when it feels the best is when you're sort of in that adrenaline rush zone with it. So I just try to like get people there in that headspace with me and just like ride that out for as much as I can. But obviously like deflating things happen, right? Like you'll have like a tricky client or like, you know, you'll go over budget. You can't do a lot of stuff you want to do or whatever. So you got to like, I try to just be like the cheerleader and be like, oh, don't worry guys, like, let's come up with another idea. Whatever. So I think that's, yeah, I think managing other creative people is about just like maintaining that culture of like being excited, not judging each other and sort of just like building momentum. And did you learn that from working with anyone in particular on your end or how did you come up with that? - It's funny enough, like it's something you learned in high school. I had this really great ceramics teacher who was like everyone's favorite teacher in high school. He had like an espresso machine in his room and he'd like play like the pixies, like on a speaker, really loud. - So it's always a ceramics teacher. - Yeah, like I apparently that's, people tell me that too. So apparently it's like an archetype. So like, you know, so he was incredible and one of the rules of his room was that you would like, you would make stuff and then you would just like leave it on the table and people could just pick up your stuff and like finish it. So you'd like go to first period and you'd like make a bowl and then you leave it on the table and like, maybe someone in the third period would like glaze the bowl with paint or something or maybe like break it 'cause they were like trying to do something with it and like fucked up or whatever. But I think it created this culture of like experimenting, not really like loaning stuff and sort of just like trying things out that I think I try, like I always try to like build that vibe with everything that I'm doing. You know, I think part of it's just like, especially with ideas, it's like ideas are really like the easiest, cheapest thing in the world that's like making them the hard part. You know, so when people are like, that's my idea, like this is just like, you know, especially within a team, it just gets very like toxic. - Yeah, that territorial aspect of creativity is not really. - Yeah, healthy. - Exactly. So it's like, I think if you create this culture, it's like, hey, like I'm gonna start that bowl, but like go ahead and finish it, like whatever. You know, like take it where you wanna take it. Like I think that's sort of like the kind of creative culture I've always wanted to be part of. - I think that's such a great point. The kind of ownership and the protectiveness is something that I know we see a lot. And if for a while I thought it was something inherent to younger creatives, but it actually seems I was working with someone a little bit ago that was significantly older and was quite territorial with what they were producing. What do you think, where do you feel that's most common and also how do you push against it? Because it's a problem I've never been able to solve. - I think there's ways in which, with certain cases, you'll never be able to. Because I think some people, and this is not a diss at all, but some people are really like authors, and they wanna create their vision, and they're there to do that. And that's just a type of being creative that I think just doesn't work well in a team. So you're working in a team, but you're like, no, no, no, I'm like, this is my vision. I wanna execute my vision. That's someone who's not gonna function great in a team. Like they'll function great maybe in the head of a team that's doing what they wanna do. So there's sometimes you just bump up against things that will never work. I think for me, the only way out of that mind, mind, mind, thing is just to let people see how much better things get when it's not just theirs, and just let them see that process unfold. And then I think when people are like, whoa, we're doing some really cool shit. Together, I think that's kind of how you get out. That's the only way I really know how to get out of it, 'cause I think that it's really hard to convince someone to change their mentality by talking to them or something. - Any, you've jumped into creative teams, and you've also built your own creative teams. Any quick, snappy advice for how to do that, or a way that you find is most successful to do that? - I think the trust building thing I was talking about or it's like sharing stuff is huge. I think building tension, so a really big, you wanna have a diversity of perspectives, people who have different disciplines and angles. Something I love about my team now is they all come at things from a different perspective. So I'll talk to one person, and I'll talk to the next person, I'm like, wow, I never would have thought what you suggested about that thing. 'Cause it's like, so I think that's kind of, it's like that kind of, in politics, they call it a team of rivals. Kind of vibe, I think doing that without the bad vibes is the key, I think. - Friendly rivals. - Yeah, and people who have different expertise where they learn to respect each other, where you're like, whoa, that person knows so much about graphic design, I just like, they're untouchable. - I'm gonna get out of their way. - I'm so lucky that I'm working with them, and they know so much more than I do, or that person knows so much about production. I can't believe they got us this helicopter to shoot this thing. - I think you kind of create that culture, where it's like this kind of X-Men group of people who are all really great at their respective mutant ability. I think that's kind of the ideal state. - A team of mutants. - Yeah, rival mutants. - rival mutants, but friendly rival mutants. - Yeah, exactly, let's nail that. Put it on a pillow, a stitch on a pillow. - So quickly to walk back a little bit, because one of the things I found of yours really early on were your sneaker reviews. - Your obsession with people's feet. - Yes. - Yes, I think this start. So it started while I was working at Interview Magazine. I had just moved back to New York from living in Europe. I think something I was really struck by coming from Europe was just like how both glorious and unhinge people's personal style in New York is. I feel like Europe, it's like everything's in the middle. Like no one's totally unhinged and no one's crazy awesome. It's just right down the middle where it's like, I was just like, it was like seeing color for the first time. I'm like, oh my god, like what the fuck are these people wearing? And it sort of felt like taking pictures of people's shoes was kind of like this like iceberg of that, like the tip of the iceberg of like that whole range of personal style. So I started, I did it once as like a Instagram story. I just like reviewing people's shoes on the subway and then it kind of became like something people would like ask me to do more of, et cetera. So I just like whenever I get a chance, I just take some snaps and let it rip. It makes my day every time. Thank you. - If you were to start a cult tomorrow, what shoe would you have your followers wear? - Oh my god, what was the shoe that the people from? - Nike decades. - Nike decades. - Nike decades. - Yep. - That's such a crazy detail of that whole thing. And then Nike almost released the Heavens Gate shoe. - The purple one? - Yes. - That they pulled to controversy prior to that. - I mean, that would have been, that's the PR disaster we had then. - Oh, tonight. - I would say that, I think a my cult would wear like white vans. 'Cause like I think this-- - Which vans though, like are we talking authentic high tops? - Like the really like, I forget what they're called, but it's like the canvas ones that are like low tops. - The slip-ons. - They're not the slip-ons, the least ones. - Authentics. - Authentics, yeah. I used to wear this a lot when I was a good teenager and I think there's something really poetic about how they just like, they got so dirty. - They always about say they get disgusting. - Yeah, and they kind of like take on this like, they like absorb the world around you in this weird way. And so I feel like if I had like a cult, I would kind of like create some like spiritual story about like your shoes getting messed up and dirty and that'd be like an extension of like mortality or something. - You're all about miles on the machine and we'll clean dirty washing on one day. - Yeah, totally. That's the site, that's maybe, we're tapping into my like my esoteric philosophy right now. We were talking a little bit about, you know, kind of content, memes, playfulness. What is that relationship between kind of where we were, merch, tainment, stealth wealth to this absurd quality fashion needs seems to have now. What is that, could you walk me through that a little bit? - I think it's something that's actually in very inherent to luxury that like rears its head in different ways, you know? So I think that you're going back to like Zoolander, for example, like being a movie that was so funny because I think it kind of like, adapted into like the inherent comedy of fashion. I think it relates to something that's like one of my favorite books ever is called The Acercised Share by George Batai and it's this book from like I don't think it's like the 20s or 30s. It's about essentially like these rituals in various cultures where like cultures were like elaborately destroy things as like a part of their social makeup, you know. So like for example like in like indigenous American cultures like like different people like give gifts to each other until like all their stuff is gone and then like lighted on fire and like that'll be part of like a harvest ritual or something like that. And so and the idea of the book was that you know society always has this kind of like useless extra surplus and like and that the way it deals with that surplus is kind of like the root of a lot of like art and culture. It's like what do you do with like that extra amount that's like not useful. And I think with fashion that's very much like or with luxury in particular that's very much inherent to it in the sense that like it's really about wasting money or being a stravagan or like getting things that you don't need. And there's always going to be something baked into that that's like inherently kind of funny or kind of ironic. So that like gets out from the surface or not it's like always like cat it's like the genie in the bottle. So I think in a way even though I think we've gotten to this like more inclusive time where people feel more comfortable making the jokes about fashion or letting the fashion be the joke. I feel like almost like that humor was like always there somewhere. And you see it for example like the like camp you know are like kind of like the John Galliano like pinnacle like you know it's like that's like really funny and like I don't think he I don't think he didn't think that was funny. There was like there was like something like and that's what I think cool about camp is that sort of like funny and not funny at the same time. So yeah I know it's funny but I think right now because like humor such a huge currency on the internet unlike in our society like people are just like okay cool like why not why not let fashion tap into that. I feel like it's one of the only spaces where there's so much self-awareness that people are not afraid to be cringe but because fashion is currently in on the joke you kind of avoid this altogether I don't know it's quite amazing where it's falling right now. Yeah well it's funny because like it's kind of chasing its own tail where it's like hey like this is funny this is cringe but like everyone's saying that it's like at risk of being cringe at any second exactly now so you're like you're constantly and that's why I think like it's like this switch over from kind of like the super hyped era into the quad luxury era it's almost like hey like we played hot potato you were the last person holding the monogram potato and now we're all wearing like beige sweaters like yeah see you later you know so it's like I think it kind of in a way like the whole economy of being cringe or on cringes about like everyone almost being cringe themselves somehow. I mean it's gone through so much change over the past few years what do you think it's going to be over the next 10 the luxury market. Whew I mean I think that like what items we want are going to change or like what what things like kind of signal currency. I mean shoes and watches throughout COVID had such an insane boom. Yeah. I mean that's like that that was like very much NFT energy you know and I mean energy. I feel like that's also like very economic in the sense that like there was this like surplus plus of cash in the economy. Yeah. People just like stashing it. They're like oh let me just like buy some watches but because like cash was so cheap. Yeah. But I also think you know it's like a conversation I had with like Virgil Ablo a really long time ago like the first time I interviewed him because I was like what's the end game of all this stuff you're making like are you going to like in 20 years you can be creating like wine glasses with off white live goes on them for like people who collect red wine and their 40s or something. And I think you know I think in a way it's about it's less about like predicting him or like following those needs and like what that. And I think what's interesting about like fashion is like even that seems like it doesn't change a lot like new categories get created like quickly. And for example like sneakers or jeans like those weren't normal those weren't part of luxury. And now they're kind of like core economic staples. Yeah. Of luxury. And so I think we're going to see is that like the material itself and the stuff and what stuff people want. I feel like is going to evolve over time. And the emphasis on archive now where that didn't exist a couple years ago. I think you're seeing needs shift. It's just it you know it's a fun hypothetical to try to figure out especially when we're speaking the world of NFT blockchain like what what the actual future of this looks like but yes we'll figure it out. Yeah. And I also think too like people like the most politically correct thing you can do as a person buying clothes right now is like not buying new clothes. You know so then like then the archive becomes really important right because it's like hey like I'm buying new clothes anymore. I buy like like helmet laying from the 90s or I buy like club kid cost like if I was I didn't interview with Kim Jones for like GQ like four years ago and he like had just started or maybe had been but just acquired some new like like pieces in this collection of like club kid costumes from like the 90s that he has you know it's like oh I just bought this like Lee Bowrie. No. Outfit right. I could totally see like a person who's like a tick tocker now who has money in like 20 years like wanting to get that rather than like a loro Piana briefcase or something. Oh I don't want to see a tick tocker in a full polka dot Lee Bowrie outfit that would break my heart. Yeah. You know just you know the wear it. Just keep it on the shelf. Make it a museum piece. Yeah. So then speaking of that what item or brand would you say you're the best consumer of? I'm best isn't like I buy the best stuff or maybe what you derive the most pleasure or joy from. I go down a couple different avenues with this. I've been like really deep in the watch thing for a couple of years. Yes. I see the beautiful AP Blue Dileony wrist. Thank you. Yeah. No. So I've been like building that whole mini collection I have for a while like I think the thing about the watch thing is like I really like spending the time like when I'm not buying watches like almost like philosophizing about which one I should get next and like working on being able to get it by like knowing the right people or whatever. So there's a kind of like there's a game. Yeah. It's like a hobby almost. Yeah. Where's like I think like buying things you can get whenever feels very like like transactional and boring. Well, as you said when money was cheap people started moving to anything with scarcity or they were like knowledge barriers too. Exactly. And actually they created a really bad vibe around watches because like I'd wear this AP and they'd be like do you realize you can get seven Gillisillion Tritillion dollars for it. I'd be like like shut up like I'm not I'm not trying to sell it. You know, I'm not like it's like house slipping or whatever. This is it for you. This is my thing. Yeah. Exactly. I'm able to pretty decent watch collection for a while and now the watch I wear probably nine out of 10 days is like a time X iron man from I have a time X iron man too. I love it. I don't know what it is about that watch. It's so I love it. It's like $44 and it's my favorite watch I own right now. And it's got like the glow in the dark. Yeah. Yeah. Someone explain this to me. He has so many watches. And now he only wears this one. I don't I fundamentally don't understand. I mean, it's like rebellion now because I feel like so many people are watching. I already own that I'm like maybe going the obstetrician and there's just something weird about the time X one to because it's just like so practical like it has like the little date like it has like the you could set like military time. It's just like so simple and like yeah, indestructible. Indestructible. A great word for it. So going slightly back away from watches for just one second. Another observation that obviously you're pretty aware of is previously a CD used to stay at a house for years. And now we've seen so much movement in the industry and less and less kind of cultivating a persona or cultivating a vision and more kind of hopping around. I would love your thoughts on that. And then also as a follow up to that which of them do you think would be most likely if you know where it in apocalypse point to actually cultivate a literal cult? Really both really good questions. I think I really hope we see this like creative director carousel thing settle down. I used to definitely like live off of it as a journalist or slash editor because like it's great news when this kind of gossip happens. But outside of that it gets really boring because you can't you know it takes a while to really like creative vision somewhere. And I also think often like the person making stuff can can sometimes be like the least interesting thing about it. And so I think we almost get overly focused on it. I feel like you were definitely. seeing a moment where the industry seems to be questioning that model. You see the nomination of a lot of really kind of tectocratic behind the scenes people running stuff now, like at Boatega or at Gucci. Neither of those guys are celebrity creative directors. They're both like people who came up running the studios. And so I think that seems to be a model where it's like, hey, let's get someone who's really great at this. And they're not like an Instagram celebrity. Yeah. And so I think you're definitely seeing that sort of like settle down. And so I feel like for that reason, those guys probably have pretty good longevity if people still dig what they're up to. I think the hard thing about being really deep into one look or being so famous while you're designing is that it's harder to turn the ship around if you need to change with the times. That's something I think like Mark Jacobs is really great at is like, he's been so adaptable and like, like, you know, he's like been through so many arrows and been relevant so many arrows. And like, I think there's very few like celebrity creative directors who can really do that because they get so attached to like one thing that it's like impossible to change. And the introduction of heaven was just so brilliant to get in. The heaven couch. The heaven couch. Yeah. Like all this stuff like the marketing, like, it's like working with the people he makes out with. And so it's, you know, as Instagram, Mark Jacobs has one of my favorite Instagrams, like, you know, as like a kind of non-millennial person, like, incredible. So I don't know. I think that, you know, the people who have that kind of like adaptability are kind of like the most future proof. As far as like who could start a cult, I mean, I feel like, you know, it's like, I feel like a lot, I feel like a lot of them can. But in a way, like, I think we're, we're, we're, I think like a lot of the sort of like bigger places are becoming almost less specific in that type of cultish way. In some ways, too. It makes me think a lot about the cult of supreme, what James and the team they're managed to build. And now that playbook's been mirrored so many other times. But what he was able to foster was a deep fanaticism, whereas now I think you'd call that like a lighter touch brand affinity. And you know, maybe that was the fact that hype culture was at a rise. So it was kind of lightning in a bottle. But I'd be curious to hear Tom, what you think is the major difference between what I'll say is cult fanaticism and brand affinity. I think it has a lot to do like how bought in you are, you know, like I think supreme's a really interesting example because like, when I first encountered supreme as like a preteen in New York, it was very much like, it was a skate shop in the city where I lived. And like, there was a certain kind of kid who like hung out there every day. And like, maybe they skated, like, maybe there's like hang out with skaters, but like that was like, where they went to chill after school. And that's a way bigger level of buy in than like being a reseller on the internet, you know, or just being like, hey, this is on grill for like 250. Let me offer someone like 150 for it or something. You know, so I think that like, that's kind of like the difference. I think that's also why you see like things like car culture or watch culture taking off because like, you got to be like so deep in that world to like even get the stuff you want. Like, you have like really develop a relationship with a brand, really like develop a relationship like other people who are actually almost decades at this point at times. Yeah. So I think that really, I think the reason why like people are like unexpected people who you don't see as kind of like midlife crisis dad people like getting into that stuff is that like it has a sense of like, buy in and community around it. Is that level of immersion possible today while still running like a profitable business in your mind? I think it's the key to it. You think it's the key to it? Yeah. Because you also look at like big luxury houses and like they have like clients that are just like spending like crazy and like they're going like every client event like, you know, their whole calendar is around like, hey, I'm going to go to Europe to go to my favorite brand show and then I'm going to go to the resort show and then I'm going to go to like the Aspen like cocktail party they're doing. Right. So it's like and that person is like, you know, I'm sure in the case of a lot of these brands, like the top 1% of customers probably contributing like a third of their revenue. Really? I mean, I've heard numbers like that in various places. So I think there's like a way in which like at those extremes, you can kind of like play into that buy in. The sad thing though is I feel like at the grassroots level that happens less and less and that like at that, you know, I think because of like fast fashion and like high culture, like there's less, there's less like brand loyalty and like like sense of place when it comes to a lot of fashion. Are there anything that maybe CMOs or CEOs or folks at work at brands or outside of fashion luxury could take like are there any learnings that you feel or worth sharing with them? It's a really interesting question. Like I sometimes wonder whether like the stuff I've learned, like what currency it has outside of this like whether how specific to fashion it is or not. I think in some ways like fashion is very much like the avant-garde in the literal sense of like making images and like, you know, I think in a way like something that's like a product ad now will eventually turn into like a Coca-Cola ad like 12 years from now or some things. I think in a way it's kind of almost like front lines R&D, like visual culture in some way entirely. But so I think in a way there's like always like some learnings, but I find personally when I worked with people outside of fashion that they're so smart about just like understanding the dynamic of an audience and like seeing outside of this like dorky niche that we're all stuck in. So I don't know. Whenever I encounter people who work in like marketing and other parts of the like world industry is like I'm like super curious about what they do and how they do that. Are you familiar with the brand last crumb? I kind of hope you're not. But no, okay. So it's a cookie company. It's a cookie company that basically co-opted a drop model and is exceptionally successful. They sell a box of cookies for like $120 or $140 I think. And they drop X amount of a certain time. What's the deal with the cookies? Like how good are they? They're pretty good. I mean they're not a hundred dollars good, but they're good for the novelty of it. But I. They're good for the quality of the cookies. I was going to ask is what knowing that that was kind of a -- and I agree entirely -- fashion leads culture in so many ways. I'm just making a point to drop some particular -- is there anything else that's kind of an inherent function of fashion or an inherent function of your industry that you feel like eventually will be adopted at a larger scale? That's a good question. So my whole -- the whole like soap box I stand on is like -- And I can't believe I'm just talking about myself this way, but like I was like a marketer, quote-unquote, is that like -- I think content and storytelling are kind of like the ultimate currency and like the attention economy. And so, you know, for example, it's like you download like an ad blocker, but you never download like a content blocker on your phone. You know what I mean? Like people want to like hear stories, see funny things, like participate in this kind of like UGC culture. And so, I think in a lot of ways like -- even though that didn't necessarily come from fashion, it came from tech. I think like the way that like fashion brands have like adopted these tools is like in some ways like more free and advanced and weird. Like other industries are doing. And for me, it's like I think it's kind of like the Noah's Ark for like editors. Yeah. Because I mean, because like I was like I was like studying at a time and be like, oh like publishing like, ha ha ha, like that's dead. Like sorry. You know, because like magazines are closing. Can you really say that to you? Yeah, I've got -- I mean, well, it was just the reality. It was like print was just like -- Right. You see it's shrinking still. It's like, you know, we see places going out of business, whatever. And so I kind of like, like kind of like almost started my career like an apocalyptic segment of the industry. But really quickly I saw like, hey, actually like all the shit that I'm good at, like brands like need it really badly. And it was, you know, at a time when like brands are trying to make magazines or have Instagrams or whatever and they were like terrible at it. Like if you look at like early social media from like big brands, it was like a mess. Yeah, because they would like shoot their campaign and be like, okay, cool. We're gonna like post the billboard It's like six tiles on our Instagram and they're like, okay, great like no one likes it cool Like let's buy a bunch of ads from Mark Zuckerberg or whatever So it's like I think in a way they were kind of like the marks in this game of like of advertising but now they've like gotten a lot better at it and are kind of like leading the charge out it and but yeah, so for me it's like I think using Brands the platform to tell stories and make content like that's kind of like my mo as a as a person for now putting people in vinyl anime mass and Also getting amazing stories of how designers are creating their collection and whatnot I think it's a good balance on your image between Telling creator stories and having impact and still finding levity in it, which is amazing Do you want to wrap us out? Yeah, I'd look I think for a final question for Lister seeking influence or congregation what parting words of advice would you instill upon them? I think if you're trying to like get into something that you're not part of yet just like I would just suggest to voraciously consume stuff related to that You know like I think when I was first working at magazines learning how to make magazines I was just buying like Dead stock magazines on eBay and just like consuming them like At like you know just like out of crazy pace and just like watching how other people are doing it and like and like you know Becoming like obsessed with people who are doing cool stuff and like meeting them and talking to them and so I think just like rather than try to like worry too much about what you're doing or are you doing it just like Just kind of like go down that rabbit hole and like learn how other people do it Do you have anything you want to plug talk about anything important or do you just want to throw this mic on the ground and leave? I Could I could go another hour with you guys honestly like I love just like talking about stuff like this I think I don't but I don't really have like a lot to plug You know just just go to essence.com or at essence and Instagram. Just yeah like and follow I think that's like Kind of like a bit of a running monologue of like the stuff me and my team are up to go see the Mutants and yeah, yeah watch them play the enemy mutants. Yeah, rival rival mutants what we're up to that's it. All right. Thanks so much Tom. Thank you Tom. Thanks guys cool