This Year in Pop Music (and Some Bold Predictions for 2026)

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to every single album. I'm Nora Princeiati, and as always, I am joined by Nathan Hubbard, Nathan, Happy Thanksgiving. It's lovely to see you. I missed you last week. I hope you're good for-- - I missed you too. We haven't had a lot of breaks like that, I realized. - I know, it's kind of jarring. It's kind of like, you know, I wake up in the middle of the night and be like, "Do I have to do a podcast?" - It's like we had the turkey sweats or something. We just basically did a podcast only in front of producer Kaya before we hit play. - It is really funny, it's like it builds up and then we get on Zoom and just sort of start take dumping. But we've saved quite a bit for this episode. Let's do a little bit of programming because today is actually going to be the episode where we're gonna tackle a fair bit of kind of year and review end of 2025 stuff that we wanted to talk about, have some takeaways from the year and then we're gonna look ahead to 2026 and make some predictions. And I'll be honest, we're doing all of that today, basically because after this week, we are going into Taylor Docu Series mode. - Oh boy, yeah, boy. - It's coming and we will be there to cover it. And what we're going to do, because-- - I think we need another trailer first. (laughing) - It's like a Russian nesting doll of trailers. The trailer has a trailer. - Yeah, there was a trailer that got posted and then deleted and now there's a new trailer. - And then when the first big trailer came out, I was like, "Wait, didn't we already have the trailer?" And everybody was saying, "Don't be stupid." That was the teaser trailer, it's different. I'm so sorry, I didn't understand. I'm working on it. I promise to get better. That's my New Year's resolution for 2026 is to be smarter about teaser trailers. So yeah. - And then there's gonna be six episodes. - Yeah, it's gonna be like, it might just take the place of nobody wants this season three. (laughing) - What do you mean by that? - It's just like, I think it might just be like a Taylor and Travis love story. And that's what this thing is gonna be. - That is definitely the vibe of the 16 different trailers. - The English teacher and the math teacher getting married. - Yeah, following in love in Europe. - So we're gonna play a time to talk about this. - We're gonna have plenty of time to talk about it. It's gonna come out in three spurts as we've talked about. For the first two weeks of releases, which will cover the first four episodes, we're gonna do instant reaction pods basically, we're gonna record the date these things come out. We're gonna watch them. Nathan might have to get a VPN to make some of this happen because he's coming back from London. He's gonna work very hard to do that. We are very dedicated to bringing you the content that you deserve. And then it's gonna be Christmas. And we think that you're probably gonna be opening presents and eating Christmas dinner and spending time with your families. We're gonna be doing some of that too. So there's gonna be a bit of a delay in us getting to the third and final instalment of the docuseries. But my hope is that that's gonna allow people to catch up if you don't watch right away. Again, this is gonna be like six hours of content. And so that last drop we're gonna cover after the new year. But for the first two, they're coming out December 12th and December 19th. We're gonna be talking about them. It's gonna be right in your feeds, you know, within less than a day of it being available. - If anything else happens in pop music, we'll talk about it too, but. - We'll find a way where there's a will, there's a way. Sometimes Taylor just like eats a month of our schedule. And we wouldn't have it any other way, but that is sort of what's going on. Which brings us to today, because what we are doing is we're each going to share five takeaways about music and pop from this past year, 2025. And then five predictions for next year, for 2026. So without further ado, shall we start with the takeaways from this year? - I'm excited to hear your takeaways. (laughs) - I'm excited to hear yours. You're really gonna like one of mine. One of mine is like kind of attribute to you. - Oh, that's nice. I think. - I think. - It is, well, it's nice for you. I don't know if the takeaway is nice, but it's friendly towards you. Why don't you kick us off? - Okay. What am I gonna start with? I'm gonna start with this. I mean, one of the big takeaways from me from 2025 is that there is just a lot of noise and clutter right now, and that it is harder than ever to break through as an artist. And that is a theme that's gonna percolate through a lot of what I talk about today, both in terms of the takeaway from 25, but also what's coming in 26 and where music is headed. It just, there is so much being released. Our feeds and attention spans are shorter than ever. And, you know, we saw a lot of big artists in 2025 put out albums that just kind of didn't get grasped onto, right? It's, we saw it with duo before. We saw it with Gaga a bit this year. We'll talk about why both of those artists actually have come out of 2025 very strong and another one of my takes. Like the weekend, you know, there just were a lot of records that albums that came out that just didn't break through. And I think in hindsight, it makes that Charlie XCX Brat campaign undeniably from my perspective, one of the probably the most brilliant album marketing campaign of the last 10 years. It just, it found a way to galvanize. It had the music to support it, but it found a way to cut through the noise. And I think the entire business of music is bending itself around this challenge. You're seeing the way that music gets marketed evolve. A lot of the old school people who were great at just banging stuff to radio are out and new school people who are thinking not just about how you leverage influencers, but like what's beyond that, right? Because people now understand when they're looking at a paid ad in their social feed. Like how do you actually move culture? How do you create buzz in this moment in time in which there is so much that's fake from real people. There's now going to be so much that's fake from fake people. For fake people. I don't want it. I don't want to deal with that. Yeah, but that to me was the just like step back and look. You had a lot of big artists who put out albums and it was like the tree fell in the woods, did it even make a sound. And so it just is more difficult than ever. It's taking these moments to help artists cut through the noise. - When it felt like a really transitional year, I think after 2024, which I think was a year that let us come on a pod like this and have really clear takeaways, right? Like we talked about all of the women in pop who kind of took over the industry and how there was, you know, there were certain threads of how you made music that really penetrated culture and got people excited that just sort of felt clear, you know, we had all that song of the summer discourse and there were so many things that just felt like, oh, this was the year of whether it was not like us or espresso like 2024 felt very defined, I think, in a way that this past year musically really happened. - Did not. - And I wonder, you know, it'll be interesting a year from now. If we feel like we have any clarity on, was that a bridge that was being built to somewhere else that will feel a little bit more delineated in a similar way or is it still a little bit more, yeah, was it just a vacuum? Was it just a little bit more nebulous than that? I had a couple of mine dovetail pretty nicely off of what you were just talking about. But I'm gonna go with one of them that I think does particularly, which is that one of my main takeaways from this past year is that I don't think album rollouts really served the albums themselves very well at all at least in the quasi-traditional sense, but particularly in this year where I think a lot of people looked at the success of Brad and went, how do I do that? Like, how do I do my version of that? And I don't think, I think that very rarely in hindsight worked out very well. I think Lord tried to do a version of that with her album. I think I'm tried to do a version of that with that album. And I think you could talk about the Taylor rollout in this context too. Obviously, that's an album that had success and ubiquity in a very different way than the first two albums that I mentioned. But I think the campaign was, you know, I think the jury is out whether the rollout of show girl was to some degree alienating because of the vinyl and because of the feeling that there were all of these countdowns that sort of led to nowhere and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then on the flip side, I think, you know, two of the albums that I think got us the most engaged and excited in the last few months, maybe this is a little bit of a recency bias, but it was the Rosalie album and it was the Lilie Ellen album. And those were two things that kind of, they didn't totally come out of nowhere, but they landed in a way that made you think about the actual album first and made you consume the music before buying into an idea about what it was, which I think in some cases, like that's the other way in which I think the show girl roll out kind of caused some problems is too strong because it was such a huge hit, but complications for how it was ultimately actually received by the fans because you had this campaign that goes, this is gonna be top to bottom 12 of the bangeriest bangers you've ever heard in your life. And then it was something different. And, you know, I think that's more of just something that people have to adjust to than something that is a true problem, but I just don't know that I can give you a name. - Short of maybe like Addison Ray could make an argument where the list of people that I think went, I want my brat, like I want my version of the brat roll out where I think it served them well. Like I think in almost every case, it was neutral to harmful. - Yeah. Well, I think people can tell when you're trying too hard. I also like, I absolve in my mind a little bit the Taylor 12 bangers thing because it wasn't Taylor who said. - Travis, I know. - These are 12 bangers. It's the first time she's ever bequeathed any communication about her music to anyone else ever. - I know, but that podcast went through six rounds of edits. - Well, I guess it did. - If she didn't want that statement on the record, it would not have been on the record. - I chalk it up to the sweetness of Travis always supporting Taylor. That I can forgive that, but it did. - I don't think these things are sins. I just don't think that they helped people's initial experience of the music. - Correct, it did overhang over the music in some way. - And I think that's, you know, the high record not being bigger, I've said it. They ate 100 million times. I'll never really understand. It doesn't make sense to me. - But I do, like, there did seem to be a disconnect between kind of the, you know, joky tech talks and how many people were actually consuming the singles and engaging with the music. Lord, too, I think suffered a little bit from the, are these really the bangers we were promised? - Yeah, there just wasn't a hit on that record. - Yeah, and maybe it's not the fault of the rollout. - It's a good record. - With the rollout, it lands in a certain way when that's not there. But I do think that, like, I think there's a relationship with, you know, movies, there are a lot of movies that have these huge press tours, right? And Timothy Chalamet is releasing an 18 minute inside look at how he markets stuff sort of as a stunt to be part of a rollout. There is, you know, everybody goes on hot ones and chicken chop date and all of that stuff. And I think there is, and like, I think that stuff's really fun. But I also think that there is a growing understanding that there, you can have a viral press tour that doesn't necessarily help a movie, like where they actually become bifurcated. And there are people who consume the press and there are people who consume the actual movie and they probably have-- - Sydney Sweeney's Boxing Movie, Glenn Powell's Action Movie are two great examples of that. Like, those are two big-ass stars who were big-ass stars in a big-ass movie that a lot of people did watch. And on the press tours, it was basically, here's Glenn Powell and Saturday Night Live. Here's Sydney Sweeney, you know-- - They tried really hard. And nobody saw the movie. - And I wonder if this is a little bit of the music equivalent of that. And I think there's even an added element to it because it sets people's expectation. Like, I think the rollouts tend to set people's expectations for what music is going to be more so than a movie. - Well, it does, but also if the rollout, if the campaign itself doesn't bite and suddenly it feels uncool, the music can also be dead on arrival. And you mentioned two albums that basically were dropped. - Right. - You know, without a big massive setup. And that's in part because the Lily Allen one didn't really need it. There was just enough on there. It was the car crash element. And the Rosalie album was just so different and that the music itself was able to cut through. But I do think, you know, and this was the second takeaway that I had from 2025. There is good news for artists who can tour, which is that what we learned in 2025 is that touring can save an album cycle. And that's exactly what happened with Duolip and Lady Gaga. They both went out and Tate McCray for that matter. They all went out. - Tate McCray mentioned I was gonna do it too. - Yeah, I mean, they all went out with albums then. Look, I know Gaga's nominated in a lot of categories this year. I think the Academy loves Gaga. It's not that I don't think the album is good. I liked it. It just didn't like deeply resonate with me anyway. And I'm not sure that it was like the thing. But the live performance of this stuff was awesome. And the Coachella performance set it up. And it was just like, whoa, this is theater. You gotta see it. And bang, out she went and went on tour and it carried. And the stuff, there was no doubt that killer and the Taylor Swift song and Abracadabra were gonna tour well, right? They were gonna play well in that setting. What you didn't prepare for necessarily, we weren't holding her accountable when we heard that album for the incredible visual Broadway display that she took out on tour was freaking great. No, I mean, I like that album more than you do. I think I liked it on first listen more than you did. I still totally agree with you. I think it's remarkable. The trajectory that Mayhem has had. And I think it's entirely because of the live performances because that whole reheating nachos thing, which to me, that was the one thing that I was hung up on, right? Like I really enjoyed listening to those songs, but I still couldn't quite place myself in like, okay, what does this even mean? Because it is the synthesis of like what she's great at but also what she's been great at in the past and for a long time and what does it mean to do that now without a necessarily super clear identification of what the new wrinkle is. And then somehow now I just don't care anymore. Like that it just doesn't bother me. It doesn't hang me up on it because I've seen her do it. I've seen her put herself into it. I was just obsessed with the Coachella set and I think that's been the case for a lot of people. I know that I was not alone in feeling that way when it came out and I think that that cloud around that album is just like gone and I think you're totally right that it's because of the live stuff. - Which do you think was a better song about their partner's dick? The Beast? ♪ Turn off the music ♪ ♪ Turn off the lights ♪ ♪ Gonna be on the pierced inside ♪ - Or Wood. ♪ Blood would treat a heart disease ♪ ♪ Love was the key to open my eyes ♪ - Thank you for recognizing that that is what the Beast is about. First of all, I think I like wood. - I do too. - I am a wood appreciator. - I am too. - The one thing I wish I do wish that in our conversation about what Taylor had submitted for the songwriting Hall of Fame that we'd put wood on the list of songs that definitely could have gotten her rejected. Not because it's a bad song. - I completely disagree. I think wood is on the list of things that she could have gotten in with. - Oh my God. Well, what I have-- - Should we be putting on our takeaways list? Should we have had songs about Dicks? - It seems like maybe that's our joint takeaway. - It was maybe a big year for songs about penises. - Yeah. - That was why I mean, here we were wondering what is 2025 about in music. We can't figure it out. Is it really Alex Warren? It can't be. No, it was male genitalia. And that's beautiful. - I lost my dream thought. - Give us another. - Okay, you mentioned her. So I'm just gonna do it. Tamekrey did it. Tamekrey had a great year. Do you remember last year when we were doing a similar version of this and we were picking artists to watch? And I was really like, I was kind of agonizing over Tamekrey because we knew that she had the tour coming. We knew that there was buzz around the tour but the singles just like weren't hitting. And it made me feel like I couldn't. It made me really nervous about kind of anointing her even though it felt like all the pieces were in place. And the weird thing is, now that it's all happened and I agree with you that the tour and going out on the road was a big part of it. It's not that I think there was ever a moment when one song or one performance got everybody's attention and it felt like she had arrived and was sort of ascendant in one moment or in one piece of music or output. I just think that she kind of has stayed relevant and has stayed around. Sports car has stayed around. I think it has sort of worked its way in to being one of the big songs. ♪ Now that you got a sports car ♪ ♪ I think you are broken in the fire ♪ ♪ You drive it way over ♪ Now I think Tit for Tat has really gotten traction in a way that almost feels like the thing that we were waiting for, wondering if it was going to happen before the last album. But I think just through the process of being around of doing some performances of having these songs that even if they're not like, it's not an espresso moment, they've just really stayed consistently in the rotation for people. I feel like she is here to stay in a way that I was hoping was going to have last year at this point last year, but felt nervous about predicting because I thought if it was going to happen, it had to happen in a different way. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I mean, I was with someone in the industry, and this is going to sound like, I think, very unflattering, and I don't mean it to sound that way. But I was with somebody in the industry like last week and they went to see Tate McRae with their daughter. And they basically turned to their daughter and somebody else they were with and was like, she's making the most of what she has. And the daughter was like, you just don't get it, Dad. And I think both of those things are true. I think she is making the most of what she had. I don't think she's got a killer voice. I don't think these songs are incredible. They're not. She is an incredible dancer. She is very relatable to a certain section of young girls and they like her. And the live show was pretty freaking good. And it drew people in to her vibe. I don't think people are getting Tate McRae tattoos yet. But I do think- I mean, there's got to be one. I do think- Somebody out there has a Tate McRae tattoo. Yeah, and it's a small, tiny, infinitesimal fraction of the number of Billie Eilish tattoos, for example. But that's okay. She did a couple of interesting things. She was filming those sound checks where she was just doing an acoustic cover every time. ♪ So you'll come by on my beat ♪ ♪ And say it in my shirt ♪ ♪ Say it in the sun, say it in my shirt ♪ And I sent her a camp of note. And it was like, these things are awesome. If they're showing her in a light that is sort of a bit anti to what the campaign has been where she's been this sort of like untouchable, it's all beauty. And there she is just like stripped down in plain clothes, you know, very vulnerably singing a cover song at the sound check, like it's working. And she also took the risk of doing a duet with Morgan Wallet that I think most of the pop girls wouldn't have done and guess what? It crushed. It was in the Billboard Hot 100 for a long time, top 10 for a long time. ♪ I said baby, you should know that's what I want ♪ ♪ That's what I want, that's what I want ♪ So they've made some career choices for her that in conjunction with what I said before, which is I think the tour lifted up this album and gave people access to her and got them into her world and sort of the vibe that she's making the most of what she's got. And I think you're right. I think I thought upon listening that the album did not advance her career. And I don't think it did musically, but everything around it and the tour that followed has advanced her career. And she's done the work. She showed up on some of the award shows and she's been, you know, she's available to do some of this stuff in ways that some other people haven't. You know what, we need a good hardworking pop star. By the way, do you know that Post Malone is performing at a Super Bowl related event again? Yeah, I mean, are we surprised? Post Malone's highly available. It's incredibly available. One of the most available people. And you know what, you want to be associated with artists who are willing to do the work, you know, and they'll do the work. So good on them. Yeah, I think you're right. Tate had a good year. OK, I think it's your turn again. Yeah, I mean, might take away from 25. Rock is back. Youngblood, incredible year, taking the torch from Ozzy, taking the torch from Aerosmith. Geese, this band. I was going to bring up Geese. It's just, you know, and you've got all the like music snobs who are like, who it's not radiohead, it's not the strokes. It's OK. In the same way that Olivia Dean is carrying the torch for a Dell now, this band can be carrying the torch for some others and also doing some unique things. Like their shows, a lot of dudes at these shows. Oh, my God. A lot of dudes, Nora. Oh, my God. I mean, also like if you go to a natural wine bar in Brooklyn right now, yeah, every person is talking about Geese. There's not a person in that establishment who's not sitting there being like, yeah, man, what a great year for Geese. You listen to the Geese record. Yeah, it's it's and that's in, but you know, in some, in, in some strange way, that's important. That's a part of the whole ecosystem. And they've got it. They've got it in Indy band that has landed the song taxes badass. I love taxes and Geese, Geese is back. I sort of put the Maria's in this because I still think of them. First of all, Maria put out a solo record with basically no hype that crushed. You know, I saw them open for Billie Eilish and I was like, oh my God. This is like female fronted nine inch nails. Like it worked. It worked in that arena. It worked on the festival circuit this summer and you know, it's not rock per se, but it, it kind of is for me. Can I give you one of my 26 predictions? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's free. It just makes sense in this context. Yeah. Even though I'm going to like take a sledgehammer to our structure here. It's fine. I feel like next year is going to be a good year for bands. Like rock, rock adjacent. It just feels like it's been a while since we've had a lot of bands that felt centered really at all. Sure. And I think there's probably a relationship between that and the, the centering in the contemporary music ecosystem and I think particularly with pop around having kind of one person to latch on to because a band without a very, very, very clear front person. I think we've talked about this a little bit in the context of time. I, I just think that there's, there are real limitations to that in our social media ecosystem and the kind of emphasis on people's ability to have these pair of social relationships with artists where bands are, bands struggle with that. But I don't know. I mean, he's like Cameron Winters, a guy in Geese. I mean, totally. Well, and now it's like the hipster take is to be like, Oh, I actually like the Cameron Winters solo stuff. Of course. Of course. That's exactly. I've always been on Cameron Winters. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit like Paul McCartney wings, beetles, kind of stuff. Yeah. Solo, solo, Lenin stuff. I, but I hear you on the band thing. I mean, another one of mine was just that like we have this vacuum of male stars right now. Like that's a big takeaway. The ground is fertile and ready. And that's partly why I think the Geese thing is working because it's like, Ah, dudes. Not just like what feels a little bit industry planting in Benson Boone and role model even though, you know, like them. They're great. But like those two guys had their opportunity to fill the Harry Styles void and I just don't think the music in full was there. That's okay. That's okay. The Geese is like what the Frap boys are going bananas for. It is in a totally different way. It's very reminiscent of two former like 90s things, which is the backwards white hats that went to C. Dave Matthews band. This was the band that was coming out of the clubs and like the CDs and shit were being passed around schools all over the Southeast. Like that kind of vibe. Guys were showing up. They were bringing their girlfriends on and on and on. A little bit less so the like Seattle Grunge scene, that's a little bit different because that was just like this explosion of a ton of bands. But I do think the problem that was also like that was bigger at this point, like these songs don't, you know, I know they have. But the promise is going to get a bunch of fucking Geese knockoffs. We're going to get a bunch of dog shit copycats. Yeah. Anyway, but it look rock is back and we do have this vacuum of male stars and the ground is very fertile and very ready and that will play into, you know, at least one of my predictions for 26. Well, but I do think that I totally agree with you, but I do think that some of those, some of this opens up opportunities for male stars. But I think that, you know, I'll shoehorn the fact that I'm could win that Grammy for a best rock album, which technically would take place in the year 2026. I think the Maria's factor into this conversation too, so it's not, it's not all dudes, but just to mention some dudes, what about also the possibility that there'll be a 1975 album next year? Yeah. Well, I mean, if you want to talk about 26, you know, yes, that's certainly lurking. I mean, we got Maddie Healey in a room full of people singing James Taylor. I mean, find something you love as much as Maddie Healey loved James Taylor, but it does feel like 26 is a year for a couple of very large artists to put out, you know, potentially career defining albums. And I say career defining because how the album is received and its quality will dictate whether they either stay in the stratosphere, go into the stratosphere or slowly begin to lose altitude. And so I think the 1975 or one of them, and I'll just say it, Harry Styles and Phoebe Bridgers are putting out albums in 2026, and those could be the two largest male and female stars respectively by the end of 26, depending on how they are received. And Punisher was an album, a COVID album that man stuck right through the hearts of a lot of people. And she's been gone a while now, and, you know, unless she comes back and does, you know, inside part two with Bo Burnham, I think, you know, the next time. Which honestly would also be great. Yeah, I mean, I'm all for it, but I mean, remember, she was with Paul Mescal and there was, you know, I mean, there's just a whole lot of lore. Oh, I recall there's a whole lot of lore here. So Phoebe, can you recall the official boyfriend of the Aristotle? And yes. And the question is, you know, as she got a record in the can after all this time that is going to live up to the opportunity because I think the ceiling, you cannot see the Phoebe Bridger ceiling if she delivers an album that resonates the way that Punisher did. Okay. I was, I was this close to being like, let's come back to this, but I feel like I just, I want to know what you think about this now. Do you, when you say Harry Styles and Phoebe Bridgers could come out of next year as the biggest man and woman respectively in pop music in music of the year? I love both those artists. That feels like a bolder take for Phoebe. It is. Then for Harry. Harry, I think if Harry puts out an album next year, I think you can basically check that off almost automatically. That doesn't mean that the arrow can less the BTS album like come back record, you know, stuns or something, but sure, but I think even if the arrow is pointed, you know, I think the arrow can end up pointing up down medium. If there is a Harry Styles album next year, a full-length Harry Styles album, that will happen almost automatically. Phoebe, because I think Phoebe straddles indie spaces and pop spaces a little bit more than Harry. It's not a question of quality or ability. It's just because I think her scope is different. That feels like a much bolder prediction to me, but you really, you feel like that's possible for her. Well, that's why I think, yes, I think it's possible. I think it is not foregone as a conclusion in the way that Harry is. This is when where Phoebe puts out an album that's just okay, then she becomes like Justin Vernon or something, which is not bad, but it's like admired, respected, loved, you know, has policy in her in her catalog, you know, she has Scott Street, but you know, didn't rise to the moment and what was possible. I mean, Phoebe Bridges is a stadium act. If this album resonates like the last one, she is 100% a stadium act. And it's all there. Let's look at the, look at the Gracie crowds, right? Look at what was that boy genius before, look at like they're, the whole element there, like she is a big part of it. And if she comes back and grabs that throne, watch out. And it's possible that she doesn't, I think there's the highest variability in potential outcome with Phoebe, for sure, but I think it's there for her. Do you think that she has to make a certain type of music and by certain type, I mean music that sounds big and stadium filling to get there? Because sometimes she makes music like that and sometimes she makes music that is very intimate and small. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think if she makes ever more, well, first of all, she'll have made a Christmas album. And second of all, happy ever more season, everybody. But yeah, that, that might be different. I don't know. Olivia Dean just sold out four Madison Square Gardens, like, I think, you know, Adele's big sing-alongs. Yeah, I, I, I mean, I saw her show live and it worked. There's enough of in the, in the back catalog alone to, to be in a stadium and I think she's conscious of that. I mean, there, there's plenty of Phoebe Bridgers playing a Rick and Bach or like, you know, a tangly electric guitar stuff today to go play a stadium even if this record is stripped down. I'm not worried about her carrying a stadium. It's just whether or not this album puts her back squarely in the center of the map. I just think that there are two axes to it. And one is that. One is if she makes an incredible record, it's going to resonate with people and it's going to bring people in and it's going to create a ton of excitement around what she's doing. I do think that the other axis is that I think there's an element of this that's separate to me from quality where she could, like, I'm less convinced in the case of Phoebe Bridgers relative to Harry Styles that these things are even her goals necessarily. And so I, I'm curious if it would happen just because it seems less like a given, but also I do think that there's a world in which she has a big, she has a great record and it doesn't turn into that kind of blockbuster and it's not necessarily a commentary on the quality of it. You know, I'll give you one other just sort of market dynamic, which is that we've got a year from now, 11 months from now, a midterm election in the United States. And if you've noticed in this first year of the Trump presidency, there's been a fair amount of silence from artists today being the exception when Sabrina jumped in on the White House's Twitter feed and said, "Don't use my music to support your evil agenda," which is as bold and forward of a statement as we've had from a large artist. Like that girl. Phoebe is not capable of being anything but direct about her feelings on a number of issues that largely get associated with the American political left. And so it would not surprise me if some of, and this is just the moment of culture that we're in, it would not surprise me if she actually galvanizes a lot of the sort of left-leaning music fans and that they are behind and supportive of her because she will not do anything but speak her mind as she returns to the stage. So that would be a tailwind in her favor. I think in the same way that Morgan Wallen benefited from the sort of conservative political successes that came in 2024. I mean, he obviously said a career for a while, but I think his rehabilitation and the sort of shaking off of points wildly at everything behind him, all that stuff. So I just think that in this moment, those things are intertwined and I am also very mindful in this moment that we have not had a particularly political bit of music come out. We don't have our protest album and that's why I'm keeping an eye on the Phoebe record. Yeah, no, that is really, really interesting. Okay. Any other take away from 25? Yeah, I still haven't gotten to my one that's for you. I actually, I still have three left. Do you have two left role? Okay. I have one. You just have one left. I just started talking about bands. Yeah. Sorry. Okay. One of mine is that it ended up being a pretty good year for Comebacks. And we went into 25, less we forget coming off of the Katy Perry moment and feeling a little bit like Katy Perry is standing outside the window waving at us right now. I'm sure, but she missed the cut off. I'm dating. Justin Trudeau. If one moon's world would come out in 2025, it all would have been different. But I think, so Gaga, we talked about Justin Bieber, probably the comeback of the year. And then Lily Allen, I think you could call part of that, obviously, like I think the factors around why that album worked and why that worked for her to make a return are a little bit different. But it ended up being a year when there were some artists whose hey days felt like they were in the rear view ended up really being able to reenter the zeitgeist and be central. And I still am so worried about Justin. Can I just be honest, like if you're so fucking fragile to me, like the social posts and everything, it just feels like we're just trying to keep him on his feet right now. And I say that not like ingest, like I love the kid from afar, like I love his music. I want him to be okay. You just still get the sense that God, there's some fragility to the young man. I think that's 100% true and I feel exactly the same way musically, like Daisy's was a big song. That's a good song. Yeah. It's a song that I will remember from this year and keep on playing and play listing and all of that. I like butterflies a lot. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot. I mean, let me give you like, let me give you something to think about on that front. I mean, I, I don't, again, I don't think that streaming is like the thing that you should look at. But like Bieber yesterday, okay, Daisy's is streamed basically half a billion on Spotify. Yesterday it did 1.6 million streams. You know, the Lili Allen song, like, it's did like, I mean, P palace, that doesn't sound that much better. It does. It doesn't. It doesn't. Streamed 21 million total and 270,000 yesterday. Like, that's not nothing. But from a scale perspective on the comeback side of things, like, there's a, there's, that's what's interesting about the Lili Allen album for me is that like, the narrative broke through. It's not 100% clear to me yet that the music has like taken deep root and we'll learn more as she goes out on the road. I think there's a lot of people who want to see her tour of this and it'll, it'll probably help as we've just talked about. But, but and that is by far the most streamed song from the album on a daily basis at this point. Right. Like, you know, whatever West End girl, which is the first song in the record, is the next closest, but it's, it's P palace. Yeah, I, but I still think that it's a, nobody really was predicting a Lili Allen pop album in 2025, much less one that felt relevant, that got people excited, that generated a lot of conversation. Well, listen, if you're right that, that, that comebacks are happening, you know, we just talked about Harry, we just talked about Phoebe, there's 1975, there's BTS on the right, but any of those are, BTS is different. I don't think that Harry Phoebe or the 1975 qualifies as a comeback. Okay. I have never once thought that any of those artists or group was sort of done in a way that I think that sounds so sort of final, but like I think there was a sense of that being possible with Gaga and also with Bieber, Gaga, just because she's been around forever, Bieber, because it seemed unclear whether some of the demands of being a working artist are possible or healthy for him, but those two, like those felt like re-opening something in a way where I just feel like Harry Phoebe and the 1975 are in sort of off cycles that are due to the background again. That's right. Okay, this is my last, actually they're both serious, but this is my more serious one and then I'll, I'll get to the one where I'm basically telling you that you're right. And this is the other thing that I was thinking about when you were talking about how difficult it's been for artists to break through and the way that this past year has felt a little bit stagnant. And also in some ways, what you were just saying about how, you know, we look to streaming and we look to all these metrics and they are imperfect vehicles for communicating how the world responds to art, which is often what we're trying to do. And that is sort of a phenomenon and a complication that I have noticed us this year more than ever, being like, look, we're going to share a bunch of data with you and we want you to know with some granularity kind of like how metrics tell a story, but take it with a grain of salt because it does feel like more than ever, some of those metrics feel a bit broken in the sense that they don't feel tied to actual meaning. And this has been a year where we got the, so in October, there were the rules changes that billboard to get more movement on the charts, which is basically that they are kicking songs that have been on the charts for a really, really, really long time off much faster than they used to if they don't stay at a certain level of popularity. So for instance, if a song drops below number five after 78 weeks, which is basically a year and a half, then it's gone. If it drops below number 10 after 52 weeks, after a year, then it's gone and it sort of continues on like that where it takes less time if something is lower down to get it booted off. And I think that is in the name of making those charts a better tool for people to be able to perceive things that are rising and gaining traction as opposed to just sort of the winners that are built into the streaming ecosystem, built into playlists, built into a lot of the things that contribute to like huge, huge numbers in a way that is more reflective of that than it is of people seeking them out and really engaging with them. And I like that, that seems like a good thing to me. I wonder if there will be more, just more changes in how we sort of play the numbers game with pop music because there are, it's just felt to me this year more than any other that I can remember, not that I've been paying deep attention for that long but that there are these songs and I hate how salty this is going to sound but like there are songs like the Alex Warren song that I'm just sure no one really cares about and they are by the numbers immensely popular and I know that it has made me more inclined to like qualify a lot of the information that we do share and I can feel there being some sort of attempted corrections so that we can tell a story and paint a picture that feels more reliable when we talk about what people are listening to and what they're engaging with. I don't mean to pick on Alex Warren, like Benson Boot, you know, there are a number of examples of that that's just the one that comes to mind. Yeah, this is your like undercutting of legacy media and the destruction of truth. I don't think it's that, no. I just think that I can hear us more now than ever being like, even sometimes when we talk about the past Taylor catalog, right, like there are ways in which you can put together the list from top to bottom of the songs that have the most streaming and it doesn't actually paint a picture of what are the songs that people care about the most. What are the ones that are like really truly canon? It's about when did they come out? You know, I'm not saying that you can't, you can glean a lot from that stuff, but I think that because fans also point to the numbers in a way that's very sports fan like a lot these days, there's a wreath, there, it just feels like a lot's shifting around what we pay attention to in the data, how we talk about it, how we share it, how, what the purpose of it actually is, you know, again, is it a tool of discovery? Is it a measure of quality? Like what do we even mean when we talk about this stuff? And so that felt, that felt like part of this year. Well, I'll say this, and this is my last 25 reflection, which is that there definitely is this generational transfer happening in music overall, and you're pointing to something which is that like how we define success is changing, I think it's happening in the business of music, like Elliot Grange, who's Lucian Grange's son, Lucian Grange runs Universal Music, Elliot Grange was put in charge of Atlantic Music at Warner, he's the executive that people are looking to. It's not to say Lucian isn't all powerful, but like people are sort of watching what Elliot and his team are doing, you know, you've got like this, I mean, Olivia Dean sort of picked up the Adele torch, right? We talked about Geese maybe picking up the strokes for the radio head torch, like every generation has their own, and we're sort of watching that happen in real time. I mean, the Taylor thing is real, like Taylor Swift had an album that missed with a subset of young girls, and there is now a clear next generation of female pop stars in the mix that are a full generation removed from Taylor Swift at 35, almost 36 years old, right? It's not old, but there is enough space underneath her floor for an entire apartment full of the next generation. Yeah. And it's very interesting to see that evolution and it's happening in the business side, it's happening on the artist side. And so, you know, you led this with wondering if this year is a bridge or a hole, you know, or a vacuum, right? That's a very good way to put it. And we're going to, we're going to see, but it does feel like that maybe on the business side, there, there have been a lot of changes that I suspect have hindered a little bit of the artist development that had here to forbidden happening. And so, we may just have a little lull in the really interesting new stuff because there has been a lot of bottom line focus at labels that has meant, you know, just from a whole economic standpoint for labels means that the way that they invest in new stuff is changing and that maybe instead of scatter-shotting, they're focusing more narrowly. I think, you know, good music breaks through, but the labels play a role in supporting and discovering and putting forth new music. And I suspect that whether it's a bridge or a hole that this generational transfer is part of the reason why we had an okay year in music. It wasn't 2024. Yeah. Yeah. All right. You ready to be proven, right? Go for it. Here's my last one. Yeah, you nailed it. Everybody smokes now. Yes. It's not good. And I hope it stops. But like Addison Ray and the Aquamarine video, Beyonce was smoking on stage during the Cowboy Carter tour. There you go. I'm going to a wedding in June at what was Charlie XCX's wedding venue. And I'm sure that I'm going to be stepping over cigarette butts still 100% Gracie Abrams all the pictures with Paul, you better watch out through to send that instrument. Everybody is smoking. You all should stop. It's very bad for you. I thought we knew this. I thought we'd learned this. I know we're all doing 2003 again, but like I'm just telling you there are other ways. You should do it without the cancer. Totally, totally. But you are right. I have to hand it to you. I know you're not endorsing it, neither am I. But you absolutely correctly called that everybody is just smoking now. And I do think that that is that is something that was very evident in the year that has is about to pass us. I wish everyone could see Nathan's face right now. Do you think there's any footage? It's definitely not making the docuseries, but do you think there's any footage of Taylor smoking during her free speddy healing thing? I am still not ready to tell you that I think that that happened, but if it did, she would be in line with the cultural trend. All right. Questions for 26. Yeah, which we've given you one. Okay. And I've given you another, which is a good year for bands. Okay. So why don't you you hit us with number two? I think something really big is going to happen in the ticketing business. Ooh. Like the Olivia Dean thing that happened this fall where then Ticketmaster capped the resale pricing. I mean, I think that look again, Ticketmaster doesn't have the majority of secondary ticketing transactions happen on other sites, vivid and stub hub and seat geek. And so I think that was a nice gesture by Ticketmaster. It doesn't stop the resale thing. But the UK is on the path to banning the resale of tickets at above face value. And I think there's like real momentum for this. It's like the one issue that people seem to be able to get behind in a largely divided political climate is like, fuck people who take tickets out of the hands of kids and resell them at, you know, high multiples to rich people like fuck off forever. Eventbreak just got bought, stub hub went public and then has struggled a bit. Like, there's just a lot of, and then there's this like ongoing live nation and Ticketmaster sort of investigation that's happening at the DOJ and the FTC now. All that stuff may well get resolved and settled, but there's just enough where there's that much smoke. There's usually some fire. And I think I say this in an optimistic way that for fans who at the end of the day are like, what do you care about? Your preference falls on a graph, cost of seat on one access, quality of seat on another access. You just want to find your point. Get me, you know, the cheapest way to get in tonight because that's what I care most about. Or, you know, I want the best seat possible on the floor, GA and I'm willing to pay, you know, whatever it is. Like, I think we're going to inexorably move not all together in 2026, but I think it feels like there's going to be enough that's happening on the business side and the regulatory like anti-broker laws side of things that we're going to move down the path towards helping tickets get into the hands of fans in a more fair, more transparent, and I think, you know, hopefully more affordable way. A affordability is the salient political concern of our times. I think, you know, concert tickets don't fall into quite the same category as groceries and housing, right? But it is something that people, especially in generations who care really deeply about experiences, sometimes relative to physical material things, view as really central and really important to their lives. And so it is kind of like, it falls in line with, again, the salient political issue of this moment. So that makes a ton of sense. You know, it makes me think that I have meant to bring up a couple times that for all the slides that he sometimes takes, including occasionally on this podcast, although I think people know that in the grand scheme of things, we are very pro. Before I hear Jack Antonov talking about, like, ticketing and event stuff, I'm just, like, that all made sense. That guy, like, seems like he really gets it. So good for him. What else you got in '26? I think that we will have a clear song of the summer. Is this maybe a little bit of a manifestation possibly? I would really like for it to be by Dua Lipa. I don't know if that's, like, a little early. Should I get that lucky? But I just, I think that in the grand scheme of things, this past year has taught us that there is a real danger in, like, chasing, oh, there was a thing that worked for someone else. How do I recreate it for myself, even though, like, a cross entertainment? That is something that a lot of people do. And yet, I just can't help myself, but think that having gone through this past summer, because the summer before, we talked about song of the summer so much that then we ended up talking about the lack of the song of the summer a lot, I just think a lot of people are going to try for it. And I'm hoping at least one hits. I'm hoping something works. And again, I do hope it's Dua Lipa, but I'm open to options. Harry, entirely possible he's done it before. Do you think it's House featuring John Kale by Charlie XeX? I don't. That's not what I think it is personally, but if that's, if that's someone's song of the summer, then I support them and that neither do I. But then okay, based on that, let me give you another one, actually. And then I want, I want you to follow up. But here's, this one I think is maybe my spasiest Oscar nominee, Charlie XeX. Oh, wow, you think the say 24 movie is going to be all that. So here's what I really think is that she's got volume working in her favor. She has the moment, which is the a 24, like, sort of meta, you know, fake documentary. She also has the weathering heights thing, which is going to be insane and bad as a movie. But like who knows? They nominate weird songs sometimes. And then she's making music for other movies too. And she's working with Jack Antinoff and FK Twigs on original music for maybe the up. So the moment is an a 24 movie, but another a 24 movie called Mother Mary, which is starring in Halfway and is also centered on a pop star and a story involving a pop star. And, you know, we don't know a ton about that, but she also has like five other things allegedly in development. Like, can I rejuice some descriptions of upcoming films Charlie has in the works according to Nylon magazine? Nylon magazine? Well, that's just that's who aggregated this. Okay, 100 Nights of Hero written and directed by Julia Jackman, the film will be a historical fantasy based on the graphic novel of the same name, set to premiere at Venice Critics Week between August 27th and September 6th. Okay. Great. Sacrifice. This is a movie that centers around a celeb charity event gone wrong. Okay. Starring Anya Taylor Joy and Chris Evans. Sure. Okay. She's doing all this? Here's another one. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Directed by Pete O's and co-written by O's Charlie Jeremy O Harris and Lena Gora. This movie follows a sapphic relationship between a Polish florist and a British tourist. Sounds. This is real. I should have made one up. I should have done like to to Charlie XCX movies in a lie. The basis of death, this film is slated to be an updated remake of the 1978 horror film of the same name in the upcoming. Is she just making music for these or is she involved in I can't really tell. She's definitely involved in some of them like in the in the one about the Polish florist in the British. Right. Right. She was a bad joke. She was a writer. So she no, she's actually no unequivocally, no, she's not just making movies, making music for these movies. She may be just making music for some of them. It's not entirely clear to me, but she is involved in writing and acting in at least some cases. Face of death in the upcoming version, a website content moderator encounters a group seemingly reenacting the murders of the original film online and has to discern whether or not the videos are real. Oh, boy. Well, I want your sex. No, I'm not done. She's still making more movies, an erotic thriller follows Elliot as he becomes the sexual muse for provocative artist Erica Tracy. Is it going to use the George Michael song? I don't know starring a while or two or three. Johnny Knoxville, the galorist directed by Kathy Ann and co-written by Jan and James Peterson, the thriller follows a galorist conspiring to sell a deceased man at Miami Art Basel. Is the deceased man a polished forest? I swear to you, all this is real. And then there's this going on, okay, that's it. And then the moment is the last one. So that was seven movies that I just described to you. Do you know that game that's let that people used to play like six degrees of Kevin Bacon? Yeah. Like if she really does all these movies, you're going to be able to play that with Charlie X. Oh, certainly. But also if she does all these movies, I think the odds that one of them gets some Oscar nom is like pretty likely. Is it, I mean, can Charlie get an egot? She doesn't have the patience for Broadway. Yeah, I don't, the Tony is definitely the hard one. Because she also doesn't have the, she's not like most people in Hollywood and entertainment in some way, shape or form, are theater kids and like do have theater kid energy somewhere, even if they do a good job of covering it up, Charlie, I have a hard time fitting into that paradigm. Yeah. Somebody would have to basically make Brad the show. Although, like, gosh, could she get involved with coliscolla or something, there are ways it could happen. But, and the, pretty hard no on Charlie X, X, getting an egot. I don't know. It would be crazy. Look at a polymarket going on this thing. But I think the answer is, yeah, this is actually now my pet campaign is that I really want Charlie X, the X to egot. I don't be fabulous. I don't hate it. It's more interesting than my, it's, it's, it's much more, you're really loving some grenades out there. I think 26 is going to be the year that AI gets deeply infused in music. I mean, this Teddy Swim story, this Teddy Swim story where he came out and said, yeah, I use it a bit in the studio. Just the K-pop demon hunter thing, which wasn't necessarily AI, but it was this idea of music being made by non-human characters. That country song "Walk My Walk" by that AI artist breaking rust, the people freaked out about. I think it will probably take the shape of some kind of scandal where like, it's revealed that something everybody liked from a big artist used a bunch of AI to create it. But it, I think 26 is one, it doesn't mean that it's going to be accepted, but I think it's really going to be the year in which it starts to fully surface itself. That makes sense in the, in the way that it feels like it is working its way into most parts of life, but I really think that your point about that doesn't mean that it's going to be accepted is an essential one, because I just feel like audiences are desperate for things that feel real and human, and don't have the mark of the AI on Candy Valley feeling of products that seem to be increasingly around us more and more each day. And I wonder if that will become a real challenge for a lot of artists to figure out the ways to navigate AI as a tool being more and more ubiquitous and more and more present without it overtaking their ability to connect with people, because again, like I, I, I think that there, I think that it is, I think that the feeling of the falseness is a huge turnoff. I know it is for me. And I think it, it pretty widely is like something that people feel repelled by. So to have it make its way more in at that same moment, I imagine will be challenging for some people. It's going to be very divisive and people aren't going to love it. Something that I think will, will work its way into pop more next year, although this will be a return. And I think we'll be much more welcome than artificial intelligence. I can't remember a time when pop and hip hop felt more disconnected and like there is less crossover and borrowing and back and forth between those genres and Harry Styles is going to make a rap album. No, the 1975 is going to make a rap album. No, that, that's not. I think it's more likely to come from the subset of the pop girlies who are very dance fluent. So like, I think Addison Ray could do this pretty easily. I think Tate McCray could do this pretty easily. But it just seems like, you know, this is one where I wonder if I'm, if I'm early and this ends up being more of a 2027 thing, but like it, cycles are cyclical. And again, it just feels like those two worlds are more disconnected than I can remember them being in quite a long time. I also, again, like we do seem to be basically doing 2003 again. And that was the time when those things were incredibly intertwined. And so if smoking is going to come back, if everything else is going to come back, if butterfly clips and low, low rise jeans are going to come back, then like, how about a little bit of hip hop infusion on the pop charts because it's, I think there's some anecdotally, like the hip hop and rap have been more sort of in more niche spaces this past year. As an absent from the film, but it's been taking streaming from hip hop and it's, you know, it's not just because of bad money. There's a whole regional Mexican movement in music. There's a lot that has pulled it away. But you're right. We haven't seen that crossover. I'm down for some crossovers. I'm down for bad blood featuring Kendrick Lamar. It's not what I would have chosen, but David, but I share this end of it. All right. Do you have two left or just one? I have two. Okay. Then you go because I only have one left. Well, okay. My fourth is that a major massive artist is going to do a 30 plus date residency in Madison Square Garden next fall. Are you ready to predict the artist? I'm not. Because I know. Oh. Oh wow. Okay. And will that be the longest residency out of venue like that? I think it depends on how you define it. You know, Billy Joel has sort of had that monthly residency for a long time. It just hasn't been all strung together where like basically the venue has been rented out and it's disrupted the entire touring ecosystem, but it's cool as hell and it's awesome. I love this sort of evolution of touring idea, which is that like, hey, you know, if we play a bunch of shows in a market, like, you know, Harry did this at the end of his last tour, right? Sabrina just kind of did this where she came into some major markets and played a bunch of shows all in a row. It means you don't have to load out and load in as much. So it costs you less, which makes it more profitable, which means you can probably keep ticket prices a little bit lower and because you're in a market, eventually you take the demand out of the market. But the passionate fans can travel to you if that's what they want to do. And instead of giving them that extra money to a ticket broker, they're giving it to the hotel and the travel companies and the airlines. But that's at least an experience for the fan as opposed to just like, money that, you know, is paid ostensibly for access to the show, but that goes into the pocket of somebody who's just like an arbitrageur. Damn. Thirty days. Is it someone who. No, that's all I got. I want to know you don't have to answer. You don't have to answer, but I'm going to tell you what I'm curious about is whether it's someone who is like contemporary, active right now, or if it's someone who's a little bit a legacy act. But I know you're not going to answer, but this is where the. The wheels are turning me then. You can't tempt me this way. You got. What's your last or you won my last? I'll give you my last. Okay. I think Ray is going to have a huge year. Oh, wow. And I don't mean to make this like, like, I'm so in on Olivia Dean. I think she's been. She's. I'm so excited about her. I don't mean to make this like kind of a binary because it isn't, but I do wonder, like, if I had to choose someone who I think is going to have the biggest 2026 of this current group of the British sort of pop soul artists who have been having a moment. Right now I'm going, Ray. Like, where is my husband is just. It has so much personality and I think that's going to be a really. I think it already is a really big song, but like, I don't think that song is going anywhere. And I think it really sets her up for something big. I also think that if you, you know, Ray has been a songwriter for a long time, you know, has worked with Beyoncé and I think the more people get to know there, the more they're going to like. And that's just. That's one place where I would plan a flag. I don't hate it. She's super talented. There's definitely space. She's doing all the right things. She's having moments, you know, to plan the award shows or the things that seem culturally relevant. And yeah, she's just a box full of talent. There's no doubt. Well, there's something about like. And again, I don't mean to make this about Olivia Dean because Olivia Dean is her own thing and it's fabulous. But the conversation that we had about how do you do a version of that and kind of break it out of the box of, oh, yeah, this is a lovely version of a thing that we've heard before. And maybe it's because that song kind of addresses like something that is relevant to a lot of young women, which is feeling like a lot of young men kind of haven't worked on themselves in a way that makes them ready for partnership at the same time as a lot of women are looking for it. But like, there's something that feels contemporary about that song, which I think is the hardest thing to do in that kind of format. And I mostly just wanted an excuse to talk about it. Well, with my last prediction, we have a podcast. I'm going to set up the rest of the year and our discussion for the rest of the year because how could we not have a Taylor Swift prediction for 2026? Wow. And this is like not even really like a hot take at all. But I think the Taylor Swift wedding coverage is going to be so polarizing in a way that is almost like the Bizarro opposite of the way that the Ares tour was this unifying monocultural moment. I think there are people who are just going to lose their shit at how much this thing is covered, but like the royal wedding. I think it's going to be people are going to lose their shit over every single choice that she makes. I think it's just going to be a fucking circus. And I don't think there's anything that they can do about it other than have a relatively small group of people attend who all have to check their phones at the door and not release any photographs. This is much more trivial, but like I it is of course her prerogative to have a really put you know have have our version of a royal wedding if that's really what you want. I have a hard time looking at things like that where it where it is for other people like where it is for people that that the principles don't know and not feeling like there's something hollow there and if that means that her choice will be more to do something like Selena did or like it is so carefully tended so that you can't get in if you're not like you know other than my mild interest in in rubber necking. I will be really proud of her for that like that that I just don't know how that's not the right choice. I really don't. I think she just got to do it and I hope that she does I mean I she don't know anybody anything for this wedding except herself this is about her it's her choice it's her life she does not owe the fan base or her public like yeah put some pictures on Instagram and say check it out the English teacher and the gym teacher you know got married in the gym or whatever. But there's so much slop out there right now a clickbait around this wedding like is it in Rhode Island is it here is it going to be big is it going to be small are we doing but like like you said like it's impossible to know what's actually happening and I like that I think maybe part of the strategy is flood the fucking zone don't actually talk about it in a real way just flood the zone you know the people magazine articles about how Donna and you know Andrea are talking twice a week about like who the fuck well actually it's not planting that story. I hope it's okay for me to I think it's okay for me to say this because it's not really that interesting but I like I was talking to my wedding my wedding planner recently who and who said nobody in the actual industry knows anything there's not a single like in the in the wedding planner spaces nobody fucking knows and that means that it is one of a select group of people who basically get hired with the purpose of keeping things incredibly locked that's it that's it and that's what she should do. I'm so happy at the end of the pictures. I know total I mean I want to see but but here's here's why I'm so glad that that's how you ended up because when you started saying this I was like I you're totally right and I hate it because hard of hearts a really big open public wedding like that I will I will get the egg from it like I just I know my that and who cares like who except for the fact that you and I have to come on get to come on a show and talk about this stuff like who the fuck cares what I think but I agree with you that there is there there's so much reflexive adulation but also reflexive negativity and I don't want to feel like I'm a part of that and I also know that if she does a big giant for public consumption wedding I will be a little bit sad for her but like I will feel a little bit like gosh couldn't this have just been for you like did it have to be work yeah and this makes me feel like it's it's not going to be that well and that will make me feel like I'm part of the haters in a way that I don't want to be but also that like I won't hate it I will just be like this is not my preference I can call people with the guest list the next Monday and they can put some pictures up on the internet and that will appease everybody and then they can all retroactively interiors talk about it I just hope that for those couple of days she just gets to be a human being getting married to somebody who she's finally found to spend the rest of her life with people that she knows and loves and yeah yeah yeah trusts can trust that would be cool I'd be super into it wow cool I hope we have a great year we're gonna I think we will this has been every single album as always I'm Nora Prince Yati he's Nathan Hubbard thank you to Kai McMullen for producing this episode and to you for listening we will talk to you next week with the first installment of the Taylor docu series