This Phenomenon is DARKER than Satan

What if performing a ritual doesn't summon an entity, but actually allows the entity to summon you? In this conversation with a researcher of the demonic Nathaniel Gillis, he reveals why Ouija board sayons' sigil magic and even alleged extraterrestrial contact protocols may actually be opening doors that can't be closed. We examine a coffee mug that just vanished, returned, and reportedly possessed a completely different atomic signature. Claims of occult symbolism hidden inside government space programs and encounters in which glowing orbs appeared to construct physical beings from nothing. We go through Aleister Crowley's mysterious entity lamb to a paranormal investigation that Nathaniel says ultimately became connected to a real murder. This episode asks a terrifying question. Are human beings contacting the unknown, or is there something on the other side teaching us how to let it in? If you're interested in forbidden rituals and Ouija boards in government occultism and demonology and what may be waiting on the other side, well you're in the right place. So sit back, relax, and welcome to camp. Nathaniel Gillis. Mark Agnan. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. I'll be back, man. It's great to be here. Absolutely. I'm very excited to chit chat today because we're going to be going deep. Specifically into ritual. I'm fascinated by your work as the good people watching may be familiar. You are a phenomenologist. Someone in the internet even called you a demonologist, which perhaps is not the most accurate label because as you said to me, the term demon can sometimes be limiting in the scope of what we're talking about. Just to refresh the people, can you explain what a demon is? Well, I can give you various traditions. The earliest one we have at least within the Jewish mindset of the Hebrew concept would be the disembodied spirit of a Nephilim hybrid being whose father was a fallen angel. The fallen angel mates with his mother and they bear children. And now you have this Reffaima Reffaite, which is a giant that is possessed with consciousness. That consciousness is mutated. It's either evolved or devolved. And when that body dies, that entity becomes an unclean spirit. And so that is at least within my world view, especially in my religious tradition, I grew up and that would be the definition of a demon. Now, if you get into Professor Esther Mori's work, she has a book called God's Monsters. I parade her book everywhere. I reference it often. Her first literary offering was women's divination and biblical literature. And then her second one was God's Monsters. But I like her work because what she does is a secular Jew as she goes into the Hebrew language. Zoom's in shows us the actual syntax of the words being employed. And when I first got a hold of her work, I was like, oh no, because she gets into the witch of indoor in the Old Testament and kind of gets into different terminologies of Elohim. What is that? And then the idea that she proposes is that when the witch of indoor went to see Samuel or the ghost of Samuel, that it was not at all a quote-unquote familiar spirit. It was not a demon. It was not, you know, the disembodied spirit of a hybrid. It was post-mortem, post-biological consciousness that had reorganized its matter. And was manifesting to this individual. That was the first time I ever heard of that kind of scholarship. I'm not, you know, I'm not new to scholarship. I've never heard of that level of depth in terms of that text. And so when you get into her approach to demons, it actually gets deeper than just horns and hooves and even discontent consciousness, which she proposes is that through the ancient world view is that there were actually cryptids or beings that would fall underneath that umbrella that were also enveloped into demonology. Right. Now you have a wonderful sort of framework for looking at hope. I think the people that are familiar with your work will know that you have this term that I've said before, this idea of mythologizing the mask, that there is this sort of undergirding, in many cases, sinister consciousness that can embody different forms. And it can sort of co-create with your consciousness the way that it wants you to see it. So it can become up as a sort of a demonic entity if you come from some type of religious persuasion. In some cases, perhaps even aliens and grays and UFOs could be this sort of sinister, you know, what we would call the West demonic kind of spirit. But again, that is too simple, too simple of a word, but there's some some sort of like evil kind of consciousness that's embodying this form. And it can show up as a gin, it can show up as a lady in white in some cases. It can show up as so many different sort of forms depending on what you as the observer are wanting to be persuaded by and what's going to invoke the most fear. Correct. And the reason I started researching that angle of it is because I got tired of reading case studies, where you'd have multiple witnesses of the same craft. And many of them, if not most of them, saw completely different shapes, different colors. And just, yeah, some always was a flying disc. I know it wasn't, right? It was kind of a pyramid. No, I saw red lights. No, you did. And I saw blue lights or they were strobing. No, they weren't. They were stationary. Right. Two people seen the same event describing it, not subtly differently, but vastly different. Totally differently. Hey, real quick, most people who watch this channel aren't subscribed. And when you subscribe, you help the channel grow and you stay in the loop with every new drop, religion camp, history camp, and camp gagnon. Well, let's get back to it. Now, something is there. I'm not denying that. The issue is, and this is another area of my research that I'm really wrestling with because it appears to be, you know, pun intended, the observer effect where you are collapsing the wave function differently, where you, to me, that would be the only explanation as to how you would have multiple witnesses. They were focusing on one entity, but all of them, because they have their own consciousness and their own observations, they are collapsing it into different interfaces. And so what that means, though, is that if I'm collapsing that into an interface, like, that's my favorite words now, then I go and I say, okay, this is what I collapse it into. And that actually exists in and of itself, that's a problem because all we really know is what we're collapsing it into. Right. And that is a big, big issue. Right. And you're saying people will see, you know, like, you give a great case of someone, you know, having a some type of video camera setup. And they're interactious, some type of entity. And they see, perhaps, a ghost. Correct. And then they see the sort of this apparition of a human being that's maybe translucent. And then they look at the video footage and they just see an orb. Right. And so the camera captures the orb because the camera doesn't have a consciousness or a belief. And the person sees a person, a manifestation. But ultimately underlying all of this is some type of consciousness that's interfacing with people. So my question is, what is ritual technology? And is it possible for a person or a practitioner to summon these beings? I, we're going to have to, we're going to have to root ourselves in the fertile soil of CE5. If I can to build a foundation before I launch into that, that point, because it's a great point. So what I've noticed about this intelligence is that when it wants to manifest, it will seek to be seen. And so in other words, if it, if it has to be visible, it will want to be seen in a way because it will collapse it into something to where we are staring directly at our own mirror. And we don't realize it's no different than my buddy, Paul St. Clair's case is in England. He has a case I think it was in Bempton. And this will, for everybody that's looking at the phenomenon, it works like a program. And this is an indicative of that data point where Paul St. Clair had a case study of a group of kids, maybe about teenagers, who were walking the length of a railroad track. And they see the clearing, they have trees, they see this bipedal creature walking out into the clearing and just staring at them. It was like a wolf man, a werewolf kind of figure. And it starts to chase them. Their hearts are pounding, they're sweating, they're terrified. One of them gets tripped up underneath his own feet, falls down. And of course, as good friends would, they leave them there. They're petrified as they're watching this thing creeping over their friend. And this thing gets down right in front of his face, stares at him, his mouth gets big. And just as he would have devoured him, disappears. What is that? Now this gets back into another case study he had where a family is, they're driving on this country road. And they're being stalked by another bipedal creature. And they're going 45, 50 miles an hour. This thing is barely moving, but it's keeping pace. When it's keeping pace, but barely moving, that's a seam in the dream. If you're really running that fast, we would see it. It's what it's doing, though, is it's trying to appear somewhat belonging to that environment. The issue is you don't. Not only that, but there are there's no not enough wildlife to supply your food source. So you do not belong here. Right. There's a glitch and it's no different than in the movie The Matrix in addition to that dark city if people know, right? Where they tell Neo, okay, it's not just that we're in a construct. It's the fact that there are glitches. And if you know what to look for, they're quite obvious. It's the black cat. So not just one multiple. If it was just one black cat, no big deal. But it's when it's repetitive enough to where we look at this and say it's almost like this program is trying to update itself or it's trying to maintain itself. So to say like this cryptic case might not be a literal animal that exists in the woods that's breeding and creating an environment and dying. It is some type of interplay with our consciousness and some type of entity manifesting and existing and which is why a lot of these like hunting for bigfoot shows. I'm like, I don't know if you're going to catch what you think you're going to catch because we're looking at it biologically. Yeah, or you'll end up being caught yourself. You know, it's like David Politis was on Rogan a long time ago and he was talking about instances of bigfoot holding an orb in his hand. Now getting into orbology, that's no different than some of the sayances that are recorded in history where a ball of light will roll out from underneath the cupboard or a table. And from that orb will be constructed matter like this and it'll build itself up from the ground. Before you know it, you have consciousness with constitution. There's tangibility to whatever that intelligence and whatever that energy is. It's not just energy. It's not information. It is manifesting itself out of an orb. And then it's interacting with people and some people have actually touched it. It doesn't feel like, you know, flesh and blood, flesh and bone. It's different, but it is matter nonetheless. And then out of nowhere, it will deconstruct itself back into the ball of light and then the ball of light will disappear. So it's and I know that there's some research being done right now by people who are focusing solely on that data point, which I think is fascinating because my work is kind of, I tell people, I don't have PhD. I have ADHD. Way different, you know. Have people ever looked at these reports and examined them on their microscope to see what they are? Steve Mera has. That's why I love the guy's work. He's one of my best friends in the world too, so that helps. But his research research is fascinating. Now, what's sort of happening in his work has been very fissural to often do investigations together in England. And they were going into houses where like one gentleman had a figurine and he was in an argument with his wife and he's looking at this figurine on the table and it's moving in a fit of rage. He takes the figurine frozen out the front door shatters. Here's the black cat everybody in the matrix and he goes back into the house, the figurines back on the table as if it never left. And so that peaked an interest in Steve. Steve's like, well, what's that's a glitch, right? That that should not be happening. What's going on here and so together him and Steve were looking at that aspect while performing their research, doing their investigation, but knowing full well, if we ever have a case that he liked that, I mean, to pay close attention because here's something the phenomenon does not do. It does not waste energy. It will not. It's very strategic. It will not waste its power. Whatever it does, it does for a reason. Again, that's why I have many issues with the poltergeist hypothesis. It's not a poltergeist. It's doing something, mean, I mean, I don't understand that, but it's doing something that serves a purpose for its existence. What do you mean? Do people claim that poltergeist do nothing? Yeah. Can you imagine that? So the idea though is it's the angry ghost. The poltergeist essentially is something that will just knock this water bottle over. Just to just play a prank. There we go. Yeah. Initially, that's what the hitchhiker effect was. It's a noisy ghost. No, it's not. It's something else entirely. Again, it's almost like running a program where it does this enough and then out of nowhere, the poltergeist activity stops. Now it's intentional. It's really, it has a lot of agency at that point. It's opening doors, it's making eye contact with you. It's in bed, pushing you. It's touching you and all that. So there are steps to that manifestation. To the to the apport specifically, like you're saying that Mera has looked at these items that have manifested people's homes. There's a claim that these things are, you know, creating items in people's homes that were not there that no one put there. So if we were to examine these things, what would we find something strange about them? Yeah. So Steve had an instance where a coffee what coffee mug went missing and the family had owned other coffee mugs that were purchased with that once. It was kind of like a Costco deal. You know, it's called sales. You get a big box, you got three or four coffee mugs made by the same manufacturer, made by the same process, the same properties. And the coffee mug went missing for a long time and then out of nowhere, it just shows back up right where they left it. It was like where would it go? Like what happened? And so what Steve did again, he was curious about this is he took the coffee mug that went missing and returned and took the other coffee mugs it was purchased with, sent it off to a laboratory and there was an isotopic difference between the coffee mug that disappeared and returned and the others. The others share the same isotopic ratio together. This one was completely different. And so there are two possibilities here in we lean more one way than the other. One possibility is the isotopic ratio, the difference was caused by the rematerialization of the coffee mug. Okay. The other possibility, this is what we're leaning towards is that that's not the same coffee mug mark. The what the phenomenon did is it dematerialized the original and replaced it with a simulant. Now the problem with that is it opens up a whole can of worms of implications because the matter itself was replicated. You could touch it, right? You could drink out of it. It'll taste the same. It'll feel the same. It'll look the same, but it's it's properties. The isotopic ratio is different. It did not originate here. It originated wherever the phenomenon exists. And so that opened up the conversation of again, why would this intelligence do that? Number one and number two, if that is going on then we have to retroactively go back through cases. Right. And say, oh dear God, how many times has that happened and we had no idea? That was this family in this case dealing with other elements of haunting. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. So it was activity. It was not just it was not just like, oh, a mug when missing or other things around it. Correct. And it's not a one-of-case. I know Grant Cameron has written a book about reports. I believe he has. I don't know if it's published or not yet, but the idea, though, and this is something that's called quantum anchoring, it's another interconnectivity between demonology and whatever this field is where researching where they would actually remove the report from the haunting. Just take it away. It's okay. We're going to go take it and put it in a storage space. And they would do that in about 20 to 48 hours, 24 to 48 hours of the phenomenon would dissipate. The family would call bearing Steve and say, congratulations, you managed to do something. No other investigators have managed to do. What is it? What do you mean, Mr. Smith? You've managed to get rid of the the phenomenon. It's not here anymore. There's no more activity. And that's when they kind of made eye contact and kind of was like, okay, sounds like we did something. What happened was, and this is the leading theory, and we'll get into demonology in a second, where when the phenomenon lacks a connection or it lacks the ability to manifest, or what I told you, it'll knock something over, it'll build energy, and then it will incarnate and manifest. But if that's not possible, or if there's another way to do it, they'll just report an object, take one, report it that in, and then now that they're, this is the theory that their energy, their consciousness, their signal, their intention is now imprinted on that apport. And wherever that apport is, they will be there also. And so this theory is that when it is weakened, it's insufficient and deficient. It will replicate something attached itself to it, to prolong its existence, to keep and maintain control in that local environment. Now, William Tiller created, there's a book out there for all the bibliophiles. It's called conscious acts of creation. William Tiller did something like that, where they stuck something in a fair day cage, and they created what's called an intention, imprinted device, or electronic device. So they literally created this electronic device and they projected their intentions into it. Can you pull up the study? This is fascinating. And while he's pulling it up, they took that fair day cage, they placed it in another environment, it began to affect the environment they placed it into. So it's not okay, it's just a water bottle, it is just a water bottle, but it could be imprinted with their intention, or like the apport. It just seems to be a coffee mug, exactly right? and the only thing that we've measured or understood at least is that yes, it was not here, then it was. We don't know what they did with that. It's what it looks to be, again, is that the apport represents an intention and printed device that's designed to maintain control about local environment. You remove it. You remove their intention. - Yeah, Tiller has his study on this is so fascinating. Chris was gonna grab all the specific details, but to my understanding, it's he's a researcher and not some like crank. He's like trying to understand. To understand, is it possible like manifestation and intention and meditation can actually affect things? So he has a group of high-level meditators that basically apply intention to this device, trying to raise the pH of a water by some degree. They're like one or two points of pH distribution, and they place that electronic device into another pool of distilled water at a separate location. And the pH went up, which is to the degree. And it's pretty remarkable. And I think he does another study with specifically like a Buddha statue or something to that effect. If I'm not mistaken, Chris just can find it. But okay, so this says here, four experienced meditators reportedly entered a deep meditative state and focused on the specific intention to raise or lower the pH of a water into a simple electronic black box. And the device was then shipped to another laboratory placed into a grounded Faraday cage along with purified water. Tiller claimed that the water's pH gradually shifted in the intended direction. And sometimes by approximately one full pH unit without any chemicals being added. Which is just really wild, right? Like for all the non-local consciousness people that are like, "Hey, your intentions can actually affect reality." This is one of those cases. Now in fairness to the skeptics approach, like this has been attempted to be replicated by another university and they didn't get the same results. Why is that happening? Is it possible that these things are, you know, difficult to exactly capture who knows? But in his case, if we take, you know, this is a Stanford material science professor, I think he's a. - It's legit. - It's fairly legit you can get. And if he's able to find this result even once, to me is remarkable. He also reported effects involving enzyme activity and fruit fly development. And for the interest of full disclosure, this is outside mainstream science that hasn't been independently established through broad research, but he founded through these cases. - It's, yes. Now, intention and consciousness, it's somewhat of a. It's a combination, but we're still determining what that can do. What is, what that is, you know? Like it gets back to some of the old USSR parapsychological experiments where you guys probably heard me mention this too, where they were having this individual who had the ability to project consciousness where they placed a blank piece of paper in an envelope, taped the paper to his forehead and said, "Okay, here are the symbols we want you to materialize into this paper, onto the paper." And after a few experiments, he was able to do it. And then they removed the envelope, placed it about 20 to 25 feet away. And they noticed something that, as he's projecting his consciousness and intention, there was a biofuel, a translucent cloud that manifested in between them. And it was filled with, now, they didn't use orbs back then, right? That was a term they were not familiar with. This is back in the 70s. This was ball lightning. And so something that materialized in that biofuel, that cloud was ball lightning and it moved from the consciousness of that individual, from the intention, I love this case. Into the air and slowly descended down upon the envelope, and energy and tension and consciousness was able to create an influence matter. - So the point being if humans are able to do this in even a few cases is possible that some other type of non-human intelligence, perhaps could do a similar sort of feature on us. Right, that's kind of the idea here, right? - It is, that yes, and that's the issue, even with Jim Snaeball, let's get back into some of the possession cases that belong to the Hitchhiker effect. Where Jim Snaeball wrote a book called "Remote Viewers" and members of our federal government researchers that were working with them, were trying to quote unquote project their consciousness into the environment of the others. And in doing so, they were projected into. And many of them, this is not Nathaniel Gillis' words, okay, they, this quote, they believed quote, they were possessed by a hallucination inducing spirit because it was almost like a war of consciousness. I'm going to project myself in a reality and they said, "Absolutely not." Matter of fact, when they try to do that, these researchers, these entities actually picked up on it. Instantly, you're trying to view me. I'm going to push you back in the darkness and I'm going to view you. And that was a part and has been a part, there I say, of the Hitchhiker effect. Now, back to the original question, is it possible to summon these things? Do weegee boards and sayons as if in movies is a possible they can actually summon some type of non-human entity? I am of the conviction now and I maintain my ability to change my mind, obviously, with new data, but I'm not convinced that we are summoning them. If in fact, we possess consciousness that can be manipulated, that something can actually come crawling out of it, then it's possible that whatever these beings are are conjuring us in order for us to conjure them, if they lack our ability, they could actually convince us to perform rituals to conjure them in an effort for them to manifest in this dimension. The problem is by the time they get here, that door's fully open, we cannot shut it. - So someone might have a strong conviction to say, I need to do some type of ritual, I want to do this, I have this feeling, I want to try the sigil magic, I want to try the sayons, maybe it might just be fun to do a weegee word with my friends. And you're suggesting that's possible, this kind of intelligence is saying like, hey, open the door for us. And then through these actions they do. - It's the spider. - Mm-hmm. - Right, we talked about this. - That's really remarkable, was it the Iranian. - The Iranian spider to a viper, yeah. - Yeah, where you see the video of it. And the tail of the snake looks like a little spider. And so birds come by and they call him eat the spider and then bang, the snake eats the bird. - Yes. Now with respect to conjuring, I'm getting on back, right back to CE5, because CE5 seems to be at least to me the repackaging of ancient spirit contact. - Explain CE5 for the guy. - So CE5, the idea is that they're avert, different protocols. Some of them are breathing protocols. Just strange stuff to me. But Stephen Greer came up with these different ways of contacting the phenomenon. And the idea though is that you can go out to an undisclosed location of your choosing, rather, wherever you want. And you can look up into the sky. You can go through Stephen Greer's protocols, pure intention and projection and thankfulness. And humility, all of that. And the phenomenon will manifest to you. A lot of this, most of it's either spirit airlines or real manifestation. - And what are people reports seeing when they do this? - Or balls of light. Sometimes, and this is rare, actual. - Oh God, now we're getting into it. Solid appearing or solid looking craft that is often confused for nuts and bolts. And it sounds maybe crazy if someone hasn't done it. They're like, "You tell 'em you can go out in the desert and like wish really hard to see a UFO." And you'll see one. - There we go, all right, let's go. - Yeah. - Yes, actually, yes. And in antiquity, they were called space demons. Not, you know, that was their terminology merely because they knew that certain entities kind of lorded over a geographical location. If you wanted to contact them, you don't go the opposite direction, you'd go where they are. So it's kind of a little bit the same, I don't know. But getting back to CE5, I'm gonna refer some of my work. In my case, it then Steve Mayer's as well, because you know, we're colleagues. I had an individual, when I left New England, I met her and she was a follower of Stephen Greer. And she was like a master at the protocols and she was getting away from the whole movement. And I said, "What's going on?" And she said, "Well, I had went in one night and did the CE5 protocols." And she's like, "Nothing happened." And I said, "Well, that's unfortunate for you." You know, like, that's all. She's like, "No, no, no, I went home and for the first time in my life, I witnessed a full-bodied apparition manifest in my house." So there is a fallacy that's baked into this movement. And that fallacy is that my intentions with the phenomenon will determine its intentions with me. - What did this apparition look like? - So I think it was a lady, a full lady. - So she goes, that's the, the woes or something, says, "Let me do some breathing work. Let me do some intentionality. Let me do some manifestation. Look up in the sky and nothing's there. This thing doesn't work. Go home." And all of a sudden there's apparition. - A ghost. - Basically, yeah. - In my house. - No different than Doris Beth or Jack Hernandez where they go in and they see what looks to be a dead person. Of course, not just a ghost, but something that, That looks physical and we're going to get to that the second because the same countermeasures being employed. It looks physical and yeah, that's what she experienced. I had one lady that her and her husband went through a really traumatic experience because they were also in the CE5 movement and at first blush they were excited because they did have manifestation and then she said that one night they were abducted and that's kind of a great area, quote, unquote abducted. Not that they don't occur, it's just she wasn't really sure what happened. She just woke up with physical manifestations, the scarifications on her body, her husband had the same thing on his and they were looking at each other and going, "Oh my God, what actually happened last night? Do you remember any of that?" He goes, "I remember something." He's like, "You know, we were taken by beings that had like the skin of a dolphin. They were kind of bluish." And it was all vague for them but they were brutally assaulted and in addition to that she started developing a problem with the vision in her right eye to the extent that she had this symbol or something in the bottom of her vision and it stayed with her for a long, long time. She's like, "I think a lot would go to bed with it. I'd close my eyes. I'd see it. I'd wake up with it." And you know, her husband's looking in her eye, she couldn't find anything, she's washing it and stuff, putting it in her eye and finally goes to the optometrist and the individual's looking at her. Finally he gives her a bill of clean health and he's like, "I don't know what's going on. I'm not saying you're crazy, obviously, but whatever you're seeing, it's not physical. There's nothing on your eye, but something was literally changing what she was seeing. And what we're realizing now in the data is that our intentions with this, they do not determine its intentions with us. That is a fallacy. You go out there and you're like, "Oh, I want this cool experience, I want to have my mind blown." Right. And that doesn't mean that the thing that shows up wants to give you a course. There we go. What we're seeing now specifically with people that are praying to Orbs is that somehow the miracle itself validates the message. It's not true. The message determines the truthfulness of the message. I don't care if it's filmed, I don't care if we have 500,000 people see the phenomenon. What is it saying? What is it wanting? What about things like a Ouija board, right? People say like, "Oh, this is a game that's packaged by Hasbro, this is like a kid's game. There's no way it doesn't. I think it's a bunch of kids holding their hands on a divination device and some prankster in the group is making it say people's names and stuff on the board." Well, it's an active invocation in a way and the real issue with that is and now we're dealing with intention, unfortunately, where I could say, "I'm looking for Uncle Ted," right? And then Ted Bundy shows up. It's not my Uncle Ted. It's a Ted. Maybe he's an Uncle. There you go. Maybe an Uncle, right? But what it certainly is not, it's not who I, and it's sometimes, again, getting back to the Tennyson case that's in James Lecansky's book where the entities, and we talked about this yesterday, it'll start playing the role of that individual. Oh, I am that person, of course I am. And then you have to question it and you have to push beyond the form to realize that no, it's just something that's trying to mimic. Like being is that, yes, there are movements that are trying to install a new mystery school in a way to where they're creating their own initiates, their own method of contact, and they're convinced, many are convinced that the miracle validates the message. It doesn't. Do you have cases of people using Ouija boards that open portals? Yeah. Yeah. My old high school teacher, funny enough, right? Absolutely. She didn't believe in any of the stuff and they were playing, she was a kid at the time. They're playing with it on a sleepover and they let go of it and it's spelling out words and talking about dying in death. And I won't say her name. She's probably watched this, but she always gave me the best coffee. So I'm at ADHD and I was like, heck yeah, I love that. Wow. Yeah, because I wouldn't allow them to have sugar or anything. Anyways, long story short, yeah. So I've had fur to that, my whole career and I'm not saying that it's going to happen every time, but here's the issue. It doesn't happen every time. It doesn't have to. It could just happen at one time and that's enough. And what do you mean it's enough? Like, we were talking last night and you said, you know, it might not kill you. That's correct. But the hitchhiker effect can do, sometimes it does even worse where it's not just you. I know an individual who tripped over an entity during a case, an investigation, a prison, and in a four year stent, I believe it was, her husband divorced her, lost her job, lost her brother. He passed away. Her dog got hit by a car, her rabbit starved to death. She filed for bankruptcy, lost everything and at the last time I talked to her, it's been months and months ago, or at least I knew her. She got diagnosed with atermal illness. Four years. Wow. It's a tough four years. Oh my God. Unbelievable. And she wasn't trying to conjure this thing. No. And here's the issue. And I'm going to get another case study that happened in the 11th century. But, and I think this is why disclosure is going to be so utterly difficult for the federal government because again, yes, we can have instrumentation and show you what we have in the sky. That doesn't mean anything. It's not like we could just go get handcuffs and arrest them, lock them up and say and quinten. No, but here's why because what they're not telling us is that, yeah, it's not in the sky, it's in the house. It's in our consciousness. It's in our, yeah, it's in here. That wants to be. What about people like Alistar Crowley or Jack Parsons? You're familiar with Crowley sort of interacting with this entity that he called Lamb. Yeah. Can you pull a picture of Lamb? This is maybe one of the most show and images on this show. Crowley basically, while he's kind of working out his religious philosophy, the, you know, the, you know, Thalamah and these kinds of things. He claims to have interacted with this entity. I think he uses the word demon, perhaps you can, you can correct me with that. And this is what he describes it is and describes like conversations with this entity that tells him, perhaps some, some teachings of the universe and kind of how things really work. Yeah. I believe he was described as an inocene entity, which is interesting because there's a lot of whistleblowers now in ufology that are tied to inocene magic, which is another data point that really is like, wait a minute, there's like a magic school that was kind of developed by John D. Initiates. Yeah. A mystery order that does exist. And it's not a figure of our imagination and a lot of data points kind of direct or attention to that. I mean, it's not just Crowley that met an inocene entity that kind of initiated him. We've got people like Matthew Roberts who witnessed a craft. And I don't want a picture from this, but I'm going to tie this together in a bow if I can where he witnesses a craft, he goes home and a voice begins to give him books on the occult. Incredible. Right. Here's the book. You need to read. Here are the authors. You need to read. And then after that, he encounters a succubus. Now, what's so interesting about this is when you hear him talk about it, he's almost realizing that ufology does not have a taxonomy for some of these beings. What do you call a female entity that assaults you in the night? Where is that? You can see some of these people like, Oh, God, where are I find that? It's called a succubus. You know, again, we documented that throughout history. The only difference though, it was not just a succubus, but later on that he was believed or even told by the entity that you were initiated during that sexual encounter. But what bothers me about this is the day after he was initiated, he said, according to his own testimony, he's outside of his apartment, he's dry heaving, because he realizes something right. The trauma was too much. And then after that, of course, we're initiated. So I do believe that ufology in many ways is a representation of a mystery school that is initiating. It's very interesting that we see this over and over again. It's not just Jack. Jack Parsons, I know we're going to get into Crowling Jack Parsons too, but real quick Parsons was mostly a self-taught scientist. I'm not saying you didn't have training or he wasn't intelligent, he was obviously, but a lot of his revelations he was getting from conjuring entities. And I think that to data point that people miss and something else is that there are people within the government that know of it, they know it's valid, and that they themselves are also promoting spirit contact in order to further the scientific method. It's like what Diana Pasoca said when she was started to investigate. This is a religious scholar, she's like, you know, I'm being told that NASA is their performing rituals and that they're placing symbols and pictures of beings, Titans, you know, Greek gods on the rockets, and then she's like, and I ask them, why are you doing this? She's like, I'm a religious scholar. I know what rituals are. She's like, "Why are you doing this?" And they said, "Well, we're doing this to please our sponsors." People within NASA said that. Now, if you take that, you also go into what else she said in this blows my mind, too, because some people get lost in the sauce on this. And it's like, "Well, they're like, "They don't believe it. They don't want to." It's like, "Well, if you take her at her word, we have an issue here because she said it was even to the point where, like, Barack Obama, the leader of the free world was told to stand in a corner in a circle and look that direction why we will launch the rocket. What are we doing? Wait, what is that? Yeah, what is that? Placing the leader of the free world in a circle and telling him to look in a certain direction in order to successfully launch a rocket into space, that means that there is another hierarchy present. That's a real case. It's a real case, which I said. There's another hierarchy present here that transcends that of the known world. Forget geopolitics, there's something else out there that we're answering to and that we are appealing to in order to further our scientific method. Now, I will suggest this, that you can have 10, 15 different practitioners. Okay, it doesn't matter what they're practicing. Cidual magic, chaos, match, and I don't care. And some of them will not have success, okay? Even some of the initiates, they have their own success ratio and all of that. Point being is that if you're going to have someone who's sigilizing a rocket or creating the glyphs or telling you which titans or which Greek gods to put on the rocket, that would mean that you've actually tested them as a practitioner. This case with Obama, where does that come from? A day in episode, she mentions that I believe it was with Rogan. Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah, I believe my mind, but it's alarming because it calls into question a lot of what we think we know about how all of this works. Right, people look at Jack Parsons and say, "Oh, he was like a one-off crazy guy." Oh. And he was just interested in the cult and it had nothing to do with his scientific exploits, which by all accounts, he was a brilliance scientist. Of course. But this claim is to say that while he's doing these things so that he can get revelations about how these things actually work. Absolutely. It's similar to the watchers coming down, and how Enoch talks about, you know, the book of Enoch talks about these beings that come down that are supposed to observe humanity. Instead, they teach humanity things. They teach humanity about, you know, metal earthen. Metal energy and makeup. Violence and. Let me. War. Let me feel a wrench in this. And this is another moment where I'm going to get probably bashed by both sides of the field. The secularists and the sacred will probably have an issue with what I'm going to say here. If, in fact, there is technology given to us by quote-unquote "fawn angels" right now, would we know it? Would we know it? And how much of it, theoretically, is already in our hands. When we look at what the "fawn angels" gave the women in Genesis 6, the technology, it's not just that, it's warfare. It's makeup. And what I'm afraid of, especially within Christendom, because I am very familiar with that kind of arena. My dad's a pastor and I have my family's full of ministers. Are we as a species prepared to take a lot of what we've come to know and love and say, "Okay, potentially if this is from a fallen angel, we can't use it." Right. You know what I'm going on? I can't use this. Now, I had a conversation a while ago with an individual who encountered a group of initiates within Eufology, who kind of. They went around parading as researchers, but they were actually initiates. And once this person, again, she was a materialist. I'm a purely materialist. I don't believe in any of the stuff. I don't believe in religion. And then once this person realized what was going on, that these people were not just saying it's extraterrestrial, but they were actually building altars to them in their homes, trying to conjure and invoke them. That's when everything changed. But what this appears to be more than anything is spirit contact. And that's why, again, that it would follow that what you're contacting, you have no control over. You cannot determine their intentions. And by the time they show up, it often is the case that you do not have the ability to push the beasts back into the darkness, you've unleashed them. And it's happened in the school experiment. And there's some data curious about this that had happened at CERN, where you just opened something up. And you can't shut the door, but they're already here. What do you do with it? It's no different than NIDs when they witness through one of their cameras. They witness this orb that turned in kind of elongated itself, and the creature starts crawling out of it. And then the orb in the tunnel collapses. Where are you going to take that being? What are you going to do with it? It feels like strange with it. Exactly right. What are you going to do? They have that footage. I don't know if they have it or if they just witnessed it. I would think they do, but I don't think they'll show us. But yeah, the Enoch thing is weird because it's like, I can get on board where it's like, okay. These washers come down, they teach metallurgy, and they create weapons. Yeah, weapons aren't great. Sure, defense is nice. But then they're like, oh, they teach violence and war. My cat's not good. But in makeup, I'm always just like, yeah. I don't know if makeup. I don't know. I have a hard time being like how makeup is evil. But I don't know. I know some people do think that. Okay. This one, Diana Pasulka. Thank you, brother. Goes to Sean Ryan and claimed that Barack and Michelle Obama were a known only position as part of what she interpreted as a ritual surrounding a space launch. Certain launches involve Latin phrase and images of Roman gods on rockets or mission patches, presidents for a allegedly positioned at a precise location directed face a direction during an astronomical event. Obama supposedly did not know that it had ritual significance. Pasulka called it obviously some type of ritual. I don't know what, I don't know why they're doing it. And NASA affiliated source that she called Tyler allegedly answered our sponsors. You know, strange. This is also very interesting to me because I try to pay attention everything I can in the field. And she was on with Joe Rogan. It was an interesting conversation. But when asked like what, what are these things or what do they kind of appear to be? Are there any indications of ontology, sources origin? She basically comes out and says, I'm not saying this as a representative of my university. I want to say that first and foremost. Right. And then she gets into more or less. And I know she didn't explicitly say this, but it was almost like she was saying a lot of these cases mirror that within within demonology. The problem is that the D word is it's either misunderstood grossly or so hard fault because it has a lot of baggage to it. People don't want to even intellectually entertain these case studies. But getting back to the apport, I'll tie the apport and we'll get back into this. Even the apports, they're themselves are also connective tissue between hauntings and demonology. These are like items that could be cursed as well. Absolutely. Or intention imprinted objects. Just like the tiller experiment. Absolutely. And you have Gabriel Amorath, Adam Bly, Malachine Martin. Some of your most prolific and experienced exorcists will talk about cases of their worst demoniacs, where in the event of the exorcism, as they're trying to get rid of the entity, the entity will literally, like literally it's crazy, regurgitate apports out of the cavity of the possessed. Now, what's there? There's two different data points here. Number one, that individual never ingested them. Sure. Right. They're nails. They're coins. Right. They never ingested them, so it came from whatever this intelligence is. That's the first data point. The second data point's incredible too, is just as there are no points of manifestation in homes. It comes through a wall, but there's no disturbance on the wall. The paint's not disturbed. The wood's not broken. The scaffolding's fine. Right. All that. The sheet, all that. Again, there's no disturbance, just like that occurs in these apports, you also have that demonstrated in the demoniac where they didn't come through them. They never ingested it. They didn't puncture them. It just literally materialized in their body. And now they're spitting it out. Why? Because when this phenomenon, whatever this is, once to prolong its existence, it will replicate a simulant. It looks to be a part of our reality. it looks to be a part of our construct, but it is not. It came from them, from their dimension. And what that means, though, for us as researchers and experiencers, is that we have actually, possibly, may have actually laid eye contact and eyes on these mimics and semulans without knowing that's what the phenomenon is attached to. Fellowes, this episode is sponsored by Blue Choo. Look, life is about preparation. You gotta prepare for a camping trip, for your job, for a podcast, and you gotta prepare for all of the things happening in your life. And sometimes when the vibe is right, everyone's being an adult, you're on the same page. 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So for a limited time, our listeners can try perplexity computer for free. All you gotta do is head to pplx.ai/camp that is pplx.ai/camp and try a computer today. Most AI tools are still answering questions but perplexity computer is completing full projects. Now, let's get back to the show. I wonder if there's a way to do it in a closed experiment, right? I know people have attempted this in different ways, but do you feel like there's a way to definitively prove it? And if we were to say like we get the top researchers from Stanford or some other type of research college and they sit down on the room and they do a say-ons and they say, do anything extraordinary. Levitate any item. Do any type of proof that there's some type of intelligence here that exists kind of beyond our understanding of physical reality? Would it be able to do it? And if it doesn't do it, why not? That is an issue in the phenomenology. So we see what it likes and what it doesn't like, whatever this is. And we see it often mostly in say-ons is that the skull experiment, there was a moment where-- let me kind of back this up. They were constructing a room. A room to them was not four walls in a ceiling. It was based on the kind of people they had in the say-ons. They're backgrounds, their beliefs. Are you a skeptic, right? Are you agnostic to this phenomenon? Or are you an experiencer? Or are you a believer and a scientist? And what ended up happening is they would have-- let's say-- I don't know how many people they had, but let's say I'm just going to say six. And so one of the six was not liked by the phenomenon. And so one of the mediums would say, OK, I'm being told to get rid of him. And then they would replace him. And then like five or six times that happens. And finally, they had arranged, quote, unquote, a room. And then they would go through their say-ons at invocation. And that's when the phenomenon would manifest. So the problem with this, though, is it does not like to be recorded. It does not like to be replicated. We will witness it here, and then come back, and it's not there. Or you'll have a scientist who is trying to perform an experiment to replicate what he witnessed. And it doesn't happen. So it does not play by our own rules. But what that does for us, especially with the scapegoek, is, well, according to the scientific method, you have to replicate it. It has to be testable. And if I can't test it and replicate it, it simply does exist. That's not how this phenomenon behaves. It's evasive. It evades by evolving. It evolves according to our understanding of it. As soon as we get a grasp on it, it will update. It'll mutate. It'll evolve. And like I said, it will evade by evolving. And that's why it's so profound to me to hear people like Robert Bigelow come forward. We've heard from Nidz. We've heard from Comt Keller. We've heard from George Namp. We haven't truly heard an in-depth explanation of Robert Bigelow, like what have you experienced? What do you think is going on? In lo and behold, he has articulated and also demonstrated that the phenomenon has countermeasures. To technology, to technology. It's already enough, my friend, that when we lay eyes on it, we can't really trust what we're seeing, right? It's Pat and her sister Rose. Well, I see aliens. Yeah, what kind of aliens do you see? There were in hats or Emily Trem. She was one of the experiencers that witnessed the-- Oh, God. She was one of the witnesses to the aerial school sighting where the craft landed. And at first, one of the reports was, they saw an alien gray with a black wig on. It's interesting, right? It's like, OK. And another witness said that there was one being standing there staring at them while there was another one kind of circling the object, the craft. And then they realized that that circling of the entity was actually a loop that wasn't real. It was real to the witness, it's like an apparition. It looks real. It's not. What was real was the entity staring directly at them. And so as in one of the conferences that Emily Trem went to, and they kind of cornered her and peppered her with questions, and they asked her, they said, OK, what did they look like to you? Which is the profound question in our context, right? What did you collapse them into? And she said, well, the one I saw looked like a gray. And you could see people like, yes, check that box. I told you it's gray, yes, we're on it. We're the best. And then she said, and then it would turn into the face of a lion. And then it's gone, oh, god, what do we do with that? Because if you're, OK, here's what we know for sure, at least, in my knowledge and my conviction, is that wasn't a four foot bipedal lion. And if you're going to lie to me with the appearance of a four feet bipedal lion, what makes me think you're not lying to me about the alien gray? Right. Yeah, what about sigil magic? Oh, god, so yeah. Another issue here, and this gets back to intention. I did a lecture on skin anomalies after hauntings and abductions and an individual in the south emailed me. We hopped on a phone call. And he just poured us hard out to me. He goes, Nathaniel, he goes, you're the only person I've heard talk about this. But Hopkins touched on it a little bit, you know, just different symbols or scoot marks on the skin. He goes, he goes, my father was a famous remote viewer, not world famous, but he's like, locally, he was it. And he wasn't trained, but he had an innate ability to lay down on his back to leave his body. And he said he would go into this liminal state, and he would meet his guides. And he'd been doing this for years, and he'd actually become proficient at it and independent, financially independent because of it. So he would go out of body, he would meet these beings, and they would say, there's, you know, there's, I don't know, John Smith, he's a politician. He's running for mayor or for governor in your city or whatever your state. He needs to poll in this demography, right? [BLANK_AUDIO] pulled over there. And that kind of thing, or there's a local baseball player, he's about to sign up, and you need to tell him to keep, you know, keep him going, shing his contract. Anyways, he became famous locally for doing that. And he had a lot of success. He said, but my dad would always describe his encounter. He would show up out of body in a metallic room, which that's weird. And he would be flanked on the right and left by beings that appear to be his guides. And he's like, my dad would have success. I mean, it was nothing. You know, I'd be playing video games. He'd come downstairs. Oh, that was a wild session. Here's what I got. He'd write in diaries. I have some of my office where pictures of it and stuff where he would just talk about the revelations he would get from these beings and had everything to do with religion. Jesus, the end times, all of that. And one day, he said, I was playing video games. His son was, and he said, man, he goes, the next thing I know, my dad is stumbling down the stairs. He's, he's wide as a ghost. He's crying. And he said, that's when I realized something really bad's wrong. He's sick. Because my dad's a veteran. He's the toughest man I've ever known in my life. He's never cried of funerals. He's not the kind of guy. And he's like, but he's weeping uncontrollably. He's like, when I'm trying to get into to talk to me and he's trying to say what happened to him, then he has a, he has a heart attack. Yeah. And he's like, we got the EMS there and they're cutting a shirt open. And he says, as we're, we're looking at his chest from underneath the skin, there were symbols and letters that begin to move from underneath the surface, sub-dermally to the surface of the skin. What kind of symbols? One was the star of David. One was the cross. And it happened. Yeah. And one of them looks like a, not like a seal or the name of an entity. And I'm still trying to interpret it. The problem with it is that the resolution of the pictures that I've been sent, it's hard when I put it through different programs. Like one thing will say this and the thing will say that. So I'm trying to find someone an academic that will help me interpret them. But it wasn't the first time that happened though. That's what blew my mind. And so these symbols are appearing where exactly underneath the skin to the surface. Now, while he's alive, while he's alive. And what's so fascinating about this is that when they manifest it fully on him, they just like look like burns. So initially they're sub-dermal and then they become burns. Now, there are multiple photographs that he has of these. And some of them, like the ones that I have or the star of David, you have the cross, then you have some kind of name. Now, one of them is an Egyptian hammer of glyphic. That's one he has overtopped like this. Were they permanent? No. They went away. They went away. Now, the really wild thing though is this because I said, okay, well, what happened? He's like, well, he goes, we finally got my dad medicated at the hospital. And he came through, thank God. And he's like, finally, I'm like, Dad, what happened? And his dad was like, I have no idea. He said, I went through my session. Everything was okay. He's like, I'm in that metallic room. I'm being flanked left and right by these beings. He said they were my guides. And he said, but when we started to converse, I just felt weird. He's like, there was something not right. And he's like, that's when I realized that these are not my guides at all. And he said they shifted. Now, I don't believe they shape shifted, right? They're not the Hulk. It's not Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, right? You're dealing with something that had, again, weaponized this man's perception of them where I'm, we got to get into that too. It's not just the observer effect. These beings have the ability to collapse that destroy that will. I'll allow you to collapse me into that. But at my choosing, I'll step out of that. And that is what I call the observed effect, not the observer, to where they had that ability. And that's what they did. He was, he was, of course, collapsing them into an interface. And they said, yeah, we're your guides. And then they stepped out of it and paused the observer effect in a way. Now, is he claiming to see these entities like in his mind when he's meditating or is he seeing them in the room with him? He's seeing them on a body. Wow. And okay, there are two data points that I want to highlight here. Number one, I asked the son. I said, okay, because his father was dead at that point. I said, when your father stopped removing, he wrote a bunch of notes and has diurned everything. I said, what did he conclude? These beings were like, what did he believe they were? And he said, he believes, I believe that they were practitioners of a mystery school. The word he used, sorcerers. Now, I know the baggage that's accompanying that word. It's not my word. That's what he believed they were a species of such. Let's interesting, though. And this is the other data point I want to underscore is that there is constitution of consciousness and tangibility to it. We have abductees who who are being pulled out of their bodies and whatever is done to the out of bodyness, the astral, whatever you want to call it, whatever is done to their consciousness. Is manifesting in and through the skin. Betty Luca, case in point, she was a bucket out of body. Her husband, Bob, for those who want to reference, it's called the Andreas in a fair and Raymond Fowler was the researcher that worked with her and her family. Betty Luca was pulled out of her body by virtue of by location. The phenomenon would boom. Now she's being seen in two places at once. And a lot of these people become self seen, right, where they look back down at themselves and they're like, oh my god, I'm out of my body. What I mean, though, is whatever that is that's out of body, it's perceiving, it's communicating. And in some ways, it still maintains the properties of physicality, even though it's not. It's very strange, it's a liminal state. The point, though, is that many of these people, like when they get back into their body, they're demonstrating the same scoop marks that are being found on bodily abductions. So the question is, is there physical evidence of abductions? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean the abduction itself is physical. Spiritual first, skin second. And this gets back into another one and I'm not, people are going to say, Nathaniel, super religious, whatever. Look, okay, we've got to do the research and we've got to be interested in all of it and curious and all of us. So my point, though, is here, if you go back to the book, if you go chapter 13, Yahweh is warring against a group, a species of cultists or practitioners or necromancers. That was their primary form of magic. And he says, he goes, basically says, I have a bone to pick with you, those who, when you see, those who hunt the souls of men to make them fly, hunt the souls of men to make them fly. And this gets back to Esther Amore's work to Whitney Davies and other scholars that I have much respect for. But the idea, though, is that these beings were pulling people out of their own bodies. And that it was a virtue of necromancy so much so that by virtue of pulling them out of their own bodies, it was somehow supplying them with power to prolong their existence. Now, what's interesting, though, too, is that when these people got back into their bodies, they demonstrated skin anomalies. Now, in its equity, it was called leprosy, but it's not Hanson's disease, that we have a modernity. This was a spiritual condition, manifesting through skin, which is why they were so ostracized. Absolutely. Many of them, yeah. So that's why they would have to go to the priest and the priest would say, okay, are you clean or unclean? Why? The first question, oh, my God, getting my ADHD's kicking in, plus, plus red bull here. So God help us, fellas. Perfect. This is getting back to the contact contagion. It's exactly what they were demonstrating. Exactly. Where they would say, okay, the priest would say, it's actually okay, have you been in contact? And he had an exact group in his mind. Have you been in contact with false prophets? Why? Because there's a species out there. Okay. Ezekiel 1320 where God speaks against false prophetesses who practice divination. So the prophet Ezekiel is told to speak against the daughters of that people, false prophetesses who claim to get, give divine messages for money, bread, and handfuls of barley. Now, these women's own magic mushrooms or magic magic, magic cushions for armholes and place veils or headbands on people. There's a book called Disembodied Souls. If you can look that up for me, brother. Now, that's okay with AI, but there's a book called Disembodied Souls that really nails this point down with accuracy. And whatever these beings were, they would mix the out of body experience with false prophecy. There we go, by Richard Steiner. Yes, no. This is a fascinating primary source for those who are interested and they get into the nephast, the re-walk, all that. So Steiner challenges the longstanding claim by biblical scholars that ancient Israelites could not conceive of a soul in the vernacular in the fash existing independently of the physical body. So I guess there's a claim that the ancient ancient Judaism didn't see the soul could exist outside the body. But they very much did, yeah, and that's what that whole book is about. They get into what's called as the catamoo inscription and they reference it in the book, as in Curly Expedition, where they found catamoo, he was a Turkish official who, oh god, this is another direction that we're going to have to go to, where he was talking about how that his disembodied consciousness would be merging with metal. Merger with metal, yeah. In other words, basically he tells his family, he says that my soul will be in the steely. In other words, create a memorial for me, create an image of some sort. And I will put my soul into it in addition to that I want you to give me offerings, build me an altar, all of that, which makes me wonder who and what it is that Tim Taylor is building an altar to out in the desert. I have no familiar with it. Yeah, yeah, who's Tim Taylor? Tim Taylor, quote, unquote, Tyler Darden in Diana Posuca's intellectual pursuits was an individual that worked the federal government that is supposedly in contact with the others. And he was known to build an altar to whatever he is in contact with. So Taylor is a former NASA controller and biotech entrepreneur. This is who she was referencing that interview with Sean Ryan. Absolutely. And allegedly Tim Taylor is a real world aerospace and biotech figure. He worked extensively with NASA and later co-founded the surgical device company. In American Cosmic, Posuca introduced him under the pseudonym Tyler to protect his identity while describing his role as a high level technologist and multi-pattern holder who pivoted from skepticism to an act of belief in anomalous phenomena after witnessing it firsthand. Look at the hierarchy of beings here. Watch this. This is this blows my mind. Look at look at the assertion as a neoplatonic ranking system placing God at the top, followed by angels or non-human intelligence NHI and then select factions within the into what's that. That's everyone's equal, but some of us are more equal. So it says here that Pasoica document entitled there's cosmological worldview that you have God and then under God there's angels and non-human intelligence is okay. I'm I'm looking at those within the aren't those humans and then a couple of humans within the intelligence community and then ordinary humans ordinary humans. So either you don't go with this either. There are select human beings within the intelligence community that are more important than the rest of us, which is plausible plausible. It's a little annoying. That's just a regular human. I'm like, oh, why are they more important than me? Or is it possible there are some select factions within the intelligence community that are non-human. There we go my friend. That's it. That is not a political hierarchy of beings. That's not the logical hierarchy of beings. Now we're getting into it. Hell yeah. Hell yeah big go. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. That's the ontological hierarchy. And the implication there I say is that we're ordinary and then there's NHI or a hybrid mixture just maybe theorizing here within the intelligence community and then there are angels and non-human intelligence. Okay, but where do they exist? Again, now we're dealing literally with ontology in origin. Now I've never heard this guy Tim Taylor. Yeah. Has he confirmed that he is the person that Pusolka is talking about? I believe so. The way she frames it is. Yeah, I believe he has already confirmed. I don't know if he confirmed that she did. Oh, she wrote in her book. So she wrote them under a pseudonym and then came out and it's Tim Taylor. Yeah, and he never refuted it. And if she said that, it's because she was allowed to basically allow to tell people, okay, yeah, it's Tim Taylor. Interesting. So from Gemini here, which again is not always perfect. Tim Taylor has never said it. Has never publicly confirmed he's the person while he has chosen not to directly confirm his identity to the media. The public, his connection to the Tyler D persona is universally accepted due to verifiable facts and public actions by others in his circle. Interesting. So blood so a central figure in his research refused to use a pseudonym in his own public media appearances. And in his book, UFO of God blood so openly uses Tim Taylor's real name when recounting the exact same events and actions and Vatican trips. Describe it. So my estimation is that you picture him? I'll notice him. That before, right? He's, she didn't let, you know, his name out and then somebody else when it was further down the road was allowed to use it. So what is he building? I have no idea what he's building. You mentioned he's an altar or something. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So she mentions him building an altar to these beings, whatever they are. Now, I don't know if that is to. Where is that work with on that? I don't know. It was an interview that she did. She's done many of them throughout the years. But the issue is that I don't know if he's building them to angels or something that appears to be an angel or sounds like an angel. If you're building it out in the desert, that is curious too. But all of this, especially with her hierarchy of beings, at least to me, it sounds like that if we really understood disclosure, if we were given the truth, it's possible, at least, probable, that we are being manipulated and led by these beings. Is this the guy? Yeah. Interesting. Now, again, without me really knowing anything about him, it says here he's got a dual career in space and medicine over 40 years, working with space shuttles, a bunch of different defense missions. He flew a biomedical experiment on space shuttle Columbia 91. I mean, it's pretty high-achieving. Yeah. He's got 40 patents in the city. He seems like a pretty legit guy based on this bio. Yeah. So again, I don't know who this guy is. I'm assuming he's the same person. It is the same person. So, when you look at Chris Bledzo, Tim Taylor allegedly told Chris Bledzo, literally, Bledzo said this, that if you've ever watched the Adjustment Bureau, the movie, there's an individual in the movie. It's a character, his name's the hammer. He's a big, big dog, like he's a really powerful person in the Adjustment Bureau. When Chris asked Tim Taylor, who you work for and everything, and Taylor said, I work for the hammer. That's him. Has he ever done any pods? Has he ever talked to him? Tim Taylor. No. Oh, God, no. What's he up? Super elusive, super elusive. But it's just strange to me that you have another rocket guy, you know, who's in contact with others. According to Diana Pasolka. Yeah. And Chris Bledzo. And yeah, and a couple other scientists that work for him or with him, rather. I don't know. I'm just theorizing for now, obviously. But a lot of this doesn't make sense. A lot of it does. And that which does make sense is alarming because if, in fact, you have skin anomalies that occurred because people were taken out of their bodies, then we would have to retroactively go back to a lot of cases that we believe were just physical. They took me physically and see, okay, is it possible that you were taken out of your own body? And there's what's interesting enough, too. It's like the experiments they're running on consciousness, not just on bodies, on consciousness. It's troubling. But yeah, it's we're not fascinating. I never heard of some Taylor. That's such an interesting little sweat. Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. We should hit him up, just be like, dude, hey, tell me what's going on. Let's have a chat. Let's hang out. And maybe he's just a regular nerdy scientist that's like, dude, there's a completely misunderstanding. There's another guy. Yeah. Same name. This whole thing got taken out. He's big in a hardware. Hardware, right? He's not even his wrong Tim Taylor. Yeah. Wait a minute. What's going on here? Yeah. He's zone TV shows. Definitely. Yeah. Exactly. I'm from Home Proof. I don't even know what's going on. That is wild. Yeah. Sometimes I'm in light at lows. You know, that's the whole difference. Hey, guys, we're going to take a break really quick because I want to tell you about energy. I'm someone who loves coffee, but there's a point where I'm on like my fourth or my fifth or my tenth cup and it stops helping. Instead of feeling more focused, I'm jittery and distracted and exhausted, but also unable to relax. It's kind of funny because I'll go to the gym. I try to watch what I eat. I try to get eight hours of sleep. And then I spend the entire day relying on caffeine just to avoid crashing. And that's why I love Ultra. I reached out to Ultra because I loved what their product was and I just liked what they stand for. And this portion of the podcast is sponsored by Ultra. These are instant focus in a pouch. It is a nicotine free pouch with zero nicotine and zero caffeine. 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I'm so curious to know if there's anything we can read about what he's building alleged there. If he has any type of public face and kind of thing, I'm like, yeah, this is what I'm getting into. You know? I would be interested in no. It's just so tight-lipped again. I think the government obviously knows way more than we do that goes without saying. So it's kind of like duh. Do you think it's compartmentalized? Very compartmentalized. Do you hear the missing scientist are connected to it? Yeah. You know what was? Some of them. Now, I had a conversation with a guy who had, he's in the researcher of mine, and we were just bouncing ideas around because there are some people that are briefed into disclosure. You know, they're in a skiff and some of them go missing at their own hand, right? And not all of them, but some. And then others go missing at someone else's hand, or you know, they're thrown over a balcony or they're found, unfortunately, dead. And I asked this individual, and he's an academic, and he's much more in tune with the academic part of the research than I am. I said, "Well, what do you think is going on?" I said, "It's like the phenomenon's taking them out, maybe." You know? Because when this intelligence wants to make adjustments, it will, it'll send turbo cancer or you'll get cut off in traffic. Like Dr. Color Turner, Barbara Bartholick, where you cross a boundary in your research, or you're working with an experienced or the intelligence doesn't want you to, it will attack you. Right? It'll be Malachai Martin. Remember we talked about that last night? Yeah. It's a little girl. You think you can help her. You won't. Well, he's in a study, standing on a little ladder, reaching for a book, a shadow figure comes by, kicks the stool up from underneath them, and he hits his temple on the corner of a table. He's gone. It's like that happen when you trip over and trigger a response from the phenomenon. So I said, knowing that, is it possible that some of these people, or they just can't take it? He goes, "That is the case for some." He goes, "But think about it. Those who can't take it." Right? In some cases, it is heavy. I mean, you're talking about people that cry themselves to sleep. It's just like, "Okay, I don't want to know this. This is not the. " One individual said, "This is not the world I brought my daughter in." And then others, it's like, if they can take it, mentally, and they're like, "Okay, like I know this. What can I do to help?" Sometimes the phenomenon will affect them as well. So you have this cluster of cases where people just go missing. It's unfortunate. I'll tell you something, though, it's not new, and that's that's sad, you know? Like in the '70s, there were at least a dozen scientists that just went missing, and many of them were studying, not just physics, but space and a rocketry. One of them was professor, oh, God, forget his name now. Anyways, he was a professor and Renee Hardy, his name, and this is, by the way, this is a book. Another book, you guys might want to buy. Art Gods, or the Dark Gods, it's fascinating, but in that book, they talk about professor Renee Hardy. He had multiple patents in science, and he was very famous in his field. He dies, and his family, obviously, they're tore up and just grieving. They go to the funeral, and right before the piano starts, the back doors open, like five or six men in suits walk in, and the family, you know, as they do, they're hugging people and saying, "Hi," and, you know, Uncle Ted looks good for his age, that kind of thing. Yeah, and they're shaking hands with everybody, and then at the end of the funeral, they go home for dinner, and they're talking, and one of them strikes up, conversation, "Do you guys remember those gentlemen that came in and said they knew, they knew Dad?" Yeah, I remember that, okay, but we've never met him, and Dad never talked about him. I know that was really strange. I tell you what, I know I took a photograph of him. I know it. I remember doing it. Let's go look at him, and they never showed up on camera. That's Renee Hardy. Professor Renee Hardy. Now what this speaks to is a construct that whatever some of these entities are, they operate outside of it, and they enter it at will. Like an artificial habitat to where when we do observe them, they have the ability to weaponize our perception. They're only here for a fleeting moment. They're going to adjust things here, hence the adjustment bureau, and then at the time of their choosing, they pop out. And so this would also explain, or Tim Taylor's hierarchy of beings, again, that's an ontological list. It's not a geopolitical list, it's not a political list. It's literally has to do with existence, origin, creation, who created me, why am I here? How did I originate? And then it, normal human beings. So in other words, what are they? But that control mechanism has been employed by this intelligence for millennia. I'm so curious if these scientists, if some of them know, if they're familiar, do you think the president knows? Now we'll tell you, Bigelow said that he tried to brief Donald Trump on the presence of the extra terrestrial or whatever he believes they are. And that was hilarious to me, because I'm not going to get political here, but you see Robert Bigelow, he's like, yeah, he goes, I said all these papers on the desk and I was talking to the president about, you know, I listen, we need to do this, we do that. And NAP was like, do you think he listened to you? And Bigelow kind of zoned out for a second and was like, oh, I don't know, I don't know. And then he goes, well, did he ever ask any questions? Yeah, but wasn't about what I came to talk about. Yeah. Like, you finally get him on that. And he's like, yeah, but anyways, how about the embarrass, huh? I can totally imagine it. I mean, he doesn't strike me as the type that's like super stoked on it. Like when he made his post about, you know, UAP files, he was like, have fun, have fun, boys, and say, I mean, you don't, you don't believe any of this. Really, you haven't been told anything that puts you in a position where you really are locked in. And his family disputed this, by the way, sad. So yeah, it says here, Renee Hardy, French engineer, doctor of science, established the UFO research organization, GEPA. And associated with the French Institute for The Physique International, you did way better with that than I would have. Come on, eh? Is that you? Yeah, you got it. There you go. He's dead in too long. On June 12th, he had a gun shot with a head with a gun in his hand, authorities classified his death as self-harm. Some writers claimed he was scheduled to reveal important discovery about the phenomenon two days later. And his family disputes it, huh? A particularly fantastic version of the 600 undenified men went to the funeral, but did not appear in photographs. So in this book, Dark Gods, they reported it, repeated it claiming that Hardy held more in 250 patents. That is fascinating. By the way, Dark Gods is a fascinating book, and it's so expensive. Really? Oh, yeah, I do. What? I don't know, man. What's the time all these good books are? Yeah, that's interesting. Oh, yeah. We can see it here. And you can even see some of the excerpts from the book. Yeah. Yeah. Get how much that was. But yeah, man. And so the problem, though, is, again, it's like, what do they know? Do they want to know this? Probably not. But what's actually going on? I'm also particularly interested in Matthew Brown's account when he said we, and I'm paraphrasing, so Matthew watches this if I get it wrong, forgive me, but he's like, you know, we live in a construct. This is that reality itself is classified, that we are not alone. You know, we're not alone, even on this own planet. So what's going on there, you know, and it's fascinating to me because when you look at Eric Davis, and I'm still trying to understand what's going on here because Eric Davis is an interesting character in my view. He lectured at contact in the desert and he mentions Jim. And it's fascinating to me because he highlights the motif that I've also referred to in my own work, just dealing with cases, looking at behavioral patterns. It's like that one instance where the entity, when it was viewed for the peripheral, was a shadow figure. And then once the person locked eyes on it, it maintained its form, it solidified it. When it moved out of her vision, it was no longer, you know, her husband. And I had no idea that Eric Davis was also kind of working on that nuance. And then at contact in the desert, he comes out and talks about, yes, and he uses the word Jim, like the most long version of a demon. For sure. Yeah. And he says that when a gen is embodied, that it will maintain its form by locking on the eyes or the observation of a person, like it's persons observing it, and you are providing the form it takes. The problem I have with this is that knowing the research I've been doing and doing with others in the field, it's, it's cursory knowledge to know that when you say that gin are separate from the demon, and the demon is separate from the Shadim and Jewish folklore or even mythology, that they're all separate. That would mean that they all exist independent from each other. The problem is, is when all of these mythologies and demonologies were being formed, they were kind of being cross-pollinated. And they all have its fascinating. So, so, for instance, for in Jewish demonology, you have the Shadim, okay? That's, that's your evil spirit. The problem, though, is that originate. It's a borrowed loan word from the Acadians say do. And so your demonology itself, your terms, your approach to it, is, is originating in another tradition that you're re-incorporating into your own theology in your own mythology and then claiming it. This is mine. I've always said this. I've always had this. It's not true. And that's why when you go back into the Levant in the Petri dish of history, you see that all of these ideas were kind of bleeding into each other. And if, in fact, Eric Davis is saying that well, you have the gin here and you have the incubus here and you have the demon here and you have the Shadim here, and all of those exist, but all of those exist because they're being propped up by their own ontology, their origin story. This is how they were created, right? And all of those traditions have issues with each other. Does it make sense? - Whereas you're saying there's a more plausible explanation that they're all coming from the same thing. - Exactly right. - Could you take me through some of the more chilling experiences that you have personally had investigating cases, things that you've really seen with poltergeist demons, again, or whatever label you wanna put on these things? - Yeah, I'll give you two, and I mentioned some of these yesterday when we were off camera. And so, years ago now, I got an email from a family in Ohio, just say Ohio. I don't wanna get too deep into the other night though, in terms of looking it up everything. But anyways, and they thought that I was my father, my dad's a pastor, or everybody knows that. So they said Mr. Gillas, my family and I are experiencing paranormal activity. We need somebody to come and pray with our family, and I'm like, okay, so I went to my dad, and I said, dad, this family needs prayer, and I'm pretty sure they think I am you and you and me. And he's like, well that's your area of work. I don't do the paranormal thing, you know? I can pray for them, but that seems more in line with your research. So, for some reason, at the time, I wasn't, you know, not that there are newspapers to read, but I wasn't, you know, connecting with the local news or anything for some reason, I think I was a college football see, I don't know. So this is what's paying attention. - What kind of haunting were they dealing with? What were they talking about? - Oh my God, shadow figures, just embodied voices, something that would shake the door handles at night, time orbs, and again, I had no context. When I got to the house, I met by, I think his name was Danny, and the first words, and I knew there was an issue. Like if I don't know you, you guys could call me this, but if I don't know you and you're like, hey Nate, not really, you know, this is so familiar. Have a couple seats, right? You don't know me that well, or at all. And so, but he said it like that, hey Nate, and I'm like, oh God, I'm like, what's going on? He goes, I'm Danny, shakes my hand, he goes, and I look, I don't believe in any of you, that's BS, because I think, I mean, I don't believe in you, I don't believe in this. I'm just here because my best friends in there, and he needs your help. I was like, okay, that's cool. So I get in there. - This guy's just a friend of the family. - A friend of, yeah, for the family. And just extremely, extremely abrasive, and I knew at that moment, I've got my hands full already, and I haven't even stepped foot in the house. So I get into the home, and we're in the living room, and there's like six, seven people there. Like they call it like a party or a meeting, or something, not a party, but a meeting. And it was the husband, the father, the son, I think it was a daughter, and then the husband's sister, the father's sister, that came from like out of town to help them with everything. And when I'm looking at the husband, he's got his shirt off, and he's got a scar. Not even a scar, it was a cut, all the way up from here, and it was like somebody just stabbed him and then just ripped him off the way up the side. - Yeah, absolutely. And it was stapled or something, and it was fresh. And I, honestly, I was very concerned, 'cause I'm like, oh, this is not good. I don't know what's happened, but there's something wrong here that's more than just the paranormal. That was when I sit down on the couch, I look in the corner of the room, and there's another couch there that nobody's sitting on. A lot of them were standing out, something were sitting down, and nobody's sitting on that couch, and in front of that couch, there's carpet that's been cut up about that much of it. And I've seen enough of CSI, you know, in 48 hours, and I'm going, oh, no, no, no, no, what happened in here? And the families, this is what happened, essentially, that they had a daughter, the father, the husband had a daughter, she's 13 years old, and she had to befriend at a 15-year-old at school, and a 15-year-old had a darkness to her. According to the father and the family, they were like, we told our daughter, we do not want you having anything to do with her. Nothing. Whenever she comes over, there people hear things, people see things, and they have experiences. We don't want anything to do with her, and we are forbidding you to hang out with her. Okay, that's fine, that's fine. Well, one night, he's like, we stay up and watch Netflix and stuff as a family, and he's like, it's like two in the morning, we're watching a show. He said, we look out the window, and there's that 15-year-old staring at us through the window, just looking at us, don't cold. He said we would then call the police department, they would come out, and they lived in an area that they didn't really have a police department. It was just a sheriff's office. So the sheriff had to come from another city and come over there and check out them. By the time they got, they had the girls long gone. It happened multiple times. And finally, she's like, man, he goes, then my daughter just is a reckless now. She won't come down for dinner, she'll order a door to ask her something, or she should just stay up in her room, and she had confessed to us that there was something visiting her in the room. And he's like, at that time, we didn't pay any attention to it, we were just glad she wasn't hanging out with that girl because she was bad news, and I can't remember if they put a restraining or I think they did on her or something. Anyways, he goes, then one night, my wife and I are watching television, and 13 year old girl comes down the stairs, and he's like, we thought she was getting a glass of water or something, she opens up the front door and in walks that 15 year old into my house for the first time. She had a knife in one hand and a pair of stub nose scissors in the other, and this gentleman's disabled. He was missing a leg, he was like a veteran or something, and so he's on one of them scooters, and he's like, you know what a family goes? It took the whole family to subdue her, do her. And he's like, by the time we got the knife and scissors out of her hand, he's like, I have been stabbed here, not gutted, gutted, but almost. And he's like, my wife, unfortunately, succumbed her injuries that night, and that's why you see the carpet. And he said, he's like, initially, they treated me at the hospital in New York and everything. They sewed me up or whatever, and he's like, but the knife broke a tip off in one of my bones, and he's like, they didn't discover it till later, started getting infected, they reopened me up. Oh, it started out. He said with orbs, shadow figures. Just really weird things, the paranormal. And I said, well, so that's pretty much why I'm here. He goes, yeah, and he goes, and there's an additional fact that I just, he goes, maybe you know what to do with it. He goes, I've only heard of it in movies. He goes, but when that 15-year-old was doing, what she was doing, my family, her mouth wasn't moving, but there was a male gutteral voice coming out of her, talking to us and laughing us. And I'm sitting there with the family, and I'm going, oh my God, right? thought it was just we got a couple shadows. figures just doing investigation. Now I'm realizing that there is an active haunting going on that eventually turned into murder. And this was a legitimate case. We looked at the news article and this girl ended up getting sentenced. Yes, and the family wanted me and I didn't do this by the way. I just didn't feel comfortable, but they were actually talking to her lawyers to have me kind of talk to her because what was happening was I did that investigation and cleansing that night and she came back around and called the family and said that the entity that it was conversing with her the 13 year old never came back. I was told that it came back initially and was like I can't come back anymore that's what it was and I can't come back anymore and never came back. And that was what that introduced me to though was a growth spurt in my career because up to that point it was this is a simple investigation going there you know and maybe you'll catch some data and whatever that's fine and we'll go home and we'll try to interpret it and all that. This was like a direct confrontation. And I have the recording at in my office in in Ohio where I'm going through the rooms. I have the sister of the husband with me because I said I don't know these rooms at all. You don't either she has notes. The first time I've been in this house I said okay so we're walking through the home and everything and when all was said and done it was like someone turned a light on in that house. The person I'm not going to give her name but she literally says in a fan you know it's like shadows moving they're moving on the walls. And it freaked me out because I thought I was prepared not that anybody could be prepared for that but I thought it was and that's when I reexamine myself and I went back to the books. It's one thing to be book read. It's another thing to be a field researcher but then again it's another thing to be a field researcher and then be book read. So you've got to have a balance and I did not have I'm not saying I have that master now that's ridiculous you know but was there ever a motivation given for why this girl did this in the court of law? No not the my knowledge I never after that the only communication I had after that was you're going to love this was with Danny Danny the atheist Danny the guy that didn't believe me hey Nate um it's okay picture this I'm outside of my deck one evening I get a phone call from the the sister to the the husband the father and she's like you're not going to believe this and the thing I said what she gives Danny once your phone number I said why because Danny has opened up the phone book and called every pastor in Dayton Ohio and told them what he experienced in that house that night he was crying he was bawling so he came over as a friend didn't believe any of it saw some things while you were there yes and didn't know what to make of it didn't know what to make of it and it was what was fascinating it was and I I get it somewhat I get it if I was in his position I didn't believe in this and I would be like yeah you're you know you're full of it and and thankfully and I can I give him respect I give him his props you know you were there for your best friend that's awesome you believe in this stuff I get it but come completely different individual and then once we got on the phone and again you know to be transparent I was still guarded you know you called me the dreaded Nate so anyways so he calls me and I answer and he's like hey man I just want to apologize for everything like what he's like yeah I just want you to know me and like that was crazy you know I believe it now he goes I've never experienced anything like that in my life but I never got no okay my point at that point I was just I kind of backed off and I started doing other stuff and other investigations but I did keep in touch with the original person that contacted me but that was on Facebook and I was like I'm not not been on Facebook for years and years now so I never got an answer as to why or what now the family had a theory and if you want to get into that it's disturbing um I don't know if I want to um that just people get it and but they had their theory but my point though is it's strange because all of that took place after haunting and then after I was there month or two after the woman contacted me was like you know they haven't had any more experiences great that's what's about him so yeah you said there's another story as well yeah so interestingly enough and Paulino the late Paulino had this as well where you go do an investigation specifically dealing with parasitic entities not all of them are parasitic many of them are they're self-serving and so Paulino in in Shane Searway a dear friend of mine too we were talking while he was an amazing guy they would go do investigations and they would do they would encounter parasites is what what Paul and then would call them where the entity would just feed on the family and it's one of those cases where there were demons not good enough you know it was different and he would kick him out or he would he would record them and collect data and they would do different and we never really got discussed like what they would do I never got into that with them but they would have a lot of success with it the problem though is a week later they'd be called out to another house across street or down the road and they're like we were just in this area like six months ago whatever that's what happened to me so the second case the more troubling case to at least was across the street and I'm from that same house from that same place buddy and I remember it was it was in the late fall and it's freezing out man and I'm I'm there and I'm knocking on the door and I turn around and I realize there's that white house you didn't know it at the time you just got an address you showed an address man yeah and what were you told going into it uh it's a 200 year old house um that the wife was being accosted by an unseen entity and the husband at that time did not believe in it he had some questions for me so he had questions for me she wanted to tell her story and somehow and this is then you got to be the guy to go in there and be like okay Mr. Mr she's telling the truth and then you got to go to the Mrs. Mrs and say okay but you got to understand his position you know and in all this so sometimes it gets really tough anyway so I'm there and my first visit with her was with another researcher named Jay and we were we're there and she is a smaller table in this but she's white knuckled it just got done in dinner so all all the plates and the silverware is there she's got her hands the table shaken and she's pale and she's like I feel it right now and I say you know like what do you feel she's like it's in this place right now it's staring at us it's watching us so it's okay what have you what experience she goes well here's how it she goes I go to bed earlier in my husband he'll stay up she goes but I'll go to bed and something will creep in the bed with me and she's like I'll feel it like slide its body next to me and I and she's like and it's not good and then I'll go into nightmares and show like you know it's in my nightmares too and so it's it's in both places she's like I've been pushed I've been touched and just really passed off and I looked at the husband the husband says you know Nathaniel I love my wife and I respect what you do he's like but I don't believe in this you know he goes I'm a veteran he's like I'm a man he goes I don't believe in this and so he's like but I want to be here for my wife you know what can you do to help us and so Jay and I kind of we did an investigation we didn't get a lot of much of anything the first visit and then covid hit and because of covid we were not able to go back to the house for like a month or two at least and so we get through covid and we get a phone call forget her name now it's been a long time but she's like Diane Diane's like you know we would like you to come back to the house where we're having more more phenomena and we don't know what's going on and I said well this is weird I said because the last time we were there it's like October November it's October November now she goes yeah it always comes the same time of the year weird so somewhere near there yeah it was like late October and stuff yeah it's very interesting and she's like yeah so I get there and this was without Jay this time And she's there, she's not shaking the table anymore. But I look over at her husband in half of his face is paralyzed. And she goes, "By the way, Nathaniel, my husband believes it now." And she kind of smiled. And I said, "What do you mean?" And she goes, "He experienced it the other day." I said, "Well, what happened?" She said, "Well, he thought, well, instead of leaving me up with myself, he joined me." And he's like, "So, he's holding me." I'm trying to fall asleep. He's in bed with me and he's just present there. And she's like, as I'm falling asleep, he says, he's like, "As she's falling asleep, I feel something moving into and onto the bed." He said, "At first, I felt it, something moved my leg." And it's like, "That's weird." It's like my leg jerked or I had a muscle jerk or anything. It's like something actually moved my leg. And I looked down and there's something crawling into it. I could actually see the imprint of its body like moving in and he goes, and the family goes, "I don't know what this means, but what would you think if it's playing with your wife's hair, but you could also feel its body at the very end of your feet?" And I said, "Well, it kind of sounds like it's sleeping or not sleeping, but like moving in between you two." And I said, "But what did you do?" He's like, "Well, I watched a Paranormal TV show." Oh, not good. And he said, "I heard of what's called the right of provocation." And I went, "Oh, no." And he said, "I challenged it." He's like, "I'm the man in my house. You're not gonna do that to my wife." He's like, "So I had to stand my ground." And he said, "But Nathaniel, how can you fight something you can't see?" I can't, I can't. And he said, "Nothing happened. No Paranormal activity." He goes, "I yelled at it, I screamed at it. If you were gonna do something, do it to me." And he said, "That night I had a dream of something beating me in the face." And I'm like, "Oh, no." 'Cause I could just see the writing on the wall. You never employ the right of provocation. You don't know what you're dealing with. And he said that in the morning, he said, "I woke up and half of my face was paralyzed." He said, "I went to the hospital and they told me they asked me, "Rather, have you been in a fist fight? You have a lot of severe head trauma." Is in that case study that the third visit, my friend and I were investigating. So that was the second, the third time we were in the last time we were there. We, the wife kept saying that she's like, "I saw children here." She's like, "And they're trying to play with my grandkids." She's like, "And my grandkids are saying, I see kids here, mom, or grandma, I see kids." Look, there's a kid over there. And she said, "I know it's, they're not real kids." They're whatever that is. And she's like, "It's for that reason and I'm not allowed my grandkids to come over to my house or to cry, it's my house." She's like, "You know, and I love my babies, but I don't want them over here because I'm afraid of what that entity could do. And in mid-sentence, we heard a door shut upstairs. Boom. And then we heard something walking, stomping upstairs. That was an interesting case study. - You heard it. - Yes, absolutely. As a matter of fact, that was louder than what occurred in my youth. - You could literally, it sounded like a construction worker with construction boots or even steel-toed boots. Slame it or boom. And then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. - How did this case resolve for her? - I didn't get back there in a while. I still haven't been back. The last I heard, they began having issues and a marriage issues. And I think they ended up selling the house after that. He left her, I think, and she ended up selling the house. - Wow. So, whoa, I mean, those are heavy. - Well, do you do anything when you go as a, you know, you're obviously there in a research capacity, but are you doing sage burning or anything like that? - No, I don't do that, man. - Why not? - It's never needed to. And I don't even, and people I know people are fearful for me, the attachment, a hitchhiker effect and all that. - How do you just make it stop, though, for them? - Is that what you're there for? Are you there just talking? - I'm there to document. Yeah, I'm there, what's telling my life? I was like, I wanna stop this and I do, I do. It's just that there's a gap in people that are in the field know this. This is why a researcher has to be well-rounded. I'm not saying I'm around. I mean, I am. I'm swell and swollen, right? - Hey, there we go. Maybe I am around. No, I mean, a well-rounded researcher. 'Cause I realize, you know, like it's one thing. I said, it's one thing to be book read on this. I know what I'm doing with it. We don't. We don't. That's the point. I had, I remember being contacted by a PhD, and this PhD got her, she wrote her doctoral thesis on evil spirits. Went through like, it was fascinating, fascinating thesis. And yet, one night, I'm on a Zoom call with her. - And I asked her straight up. Like, I've looked at your credentials 'cause I made her prove it to me. I was, I said, I can't, you know, people say there were PhDs all the time. I mean, it's like, okay, I wanna see the diploma. I wanna, right? And she, and I know it. People are gonna say I'm mean to do that. I don't care, you know? Because I wanna make sure I'm not being manipulated. So finally, she presented them to me. I said, okay, fine, you know, like, why am I talking to you right now? I should be asking you questions. 'Cause you have the PhD, I have ADHD. Why are we talking? And she said, because I got my thesis on evil spirits, and then I went and do investigations, and there was a profound gap. I thought I knew versus what I know. I experienced something with, again, it's like, I know gardening, no, get your hands dirty. When you actually get into the murky, the murky mud and the dirt and the soil, you'll come in contact with the root system. You would have never known existed just by reading books on gardening. And that's where I, and then, it's where I'm at now, where I had to take a step back and reexamine my approach, and that's when I got in contact with Steve Mira, and finally I lectured with him in England, and then in H.I. discussions were born. Where am I now? And my research, I'm getting into Paracetology and Consciousness, very interested in Riz-Vex, or Riz-Vex, where I work, I believe, Riz-Vex. I think it's how he's pronounced. The aspect of rendering is interesting to me and how that it's possible that when we're interfacing and interacting with these beings, we could potentially witness the entity, the substrate, and the interface, and be calling them three separate entities, but really it's rendering, and we're capturing it. That's why I'm at God. I'm not saying I have all the answers. I have all the questions, and I think that's good enough at this point. - Where can the people find you if they want to research more, if they want to learn more about the work? - Wherever chicken wings are, and call it football. Now, man, of course, I'm on Instagram, on the Daniel Gillis, you can follow me on YouTube. You can subscribe to my platform, Paracetology. Weakly, Steve and I, Steve Maren, I do an NHI discussion that would release. Thank you for having me on, man. - Thank you so much. - A blessing to be on with you, and I've enjoyed myself. - This is amazing. Can't wait to do it again. - Absolutely, buddy.