This Is the Sordid Reason Trump Bows to Putin

I was speaking to someone in the White House, and I said, what do you think his number is? He said he thought probably he wanted, Trump wanted $20 billion by the end of his term. He and his family could make $100 billion. That it really was about the money. Being president was nice, but being an oligarch is forever. This is at the root of Trump's interest in and admiration for Putin. That Putin is the one world leader who has access to the most money with the least amount of regulation. Ukraine has really frustrated my ability to do a deal, to be partners with Putin. So I am now going to do everything possible. I only got two years left. Everything possible to close down the Ukraine situation. And make deals with Putin. Hello, Los Angeles. This is being recorded because this will be Thursday's podcast. So you will hear yourselves on the podcast. So for those, yes, exactly. If you want to hear yourself, develop a strange laugh right now. Or heckle. I've never had a heckler. That would be interesting. We can talk about anything here because there's no one else here, right? It's very strange for us because normally we just have a conversation, the two of us. We're chattering away and then we put it out into the world. And obviously we see people's comments, but it's incredibly exciting to meet an audience and actually see the audience. We never talk to anyone except ourselves. And then there's usually a few of the producers in the studio with us. Who look bored. And they're like, oh, not again. Not again. It's the two of you again. Anyway, we're thrilled to be here. We have people from San Diego. We've got people from Texas. We've got a gentleman from Connecticut. It's very exciting. We've got people from London. It's great. It's great. Yes. Okay. Okay. Anyway, I think we should start now and we should start by me saying, Michael. Joanna. I'm not smiling. He really doesn't smile, actually. He does look younger than he sounds. And he's looking particularly fetching today because he's put on a suit for you all. Yeah. You know, I have a lot of suits and because I've gone with this cardigan thing. I don't really know how this happened, but so my suits are kind of forlorn in the closet. So I am glad to bring them out. Obviously, we're going to talk about the midterms. We're going to talk about what might Trump do if he wakes up on November the 4th and there has really been a blue tsunami. We're going to talk about his people. We're going to talk about, obviously, J.D. Vance, about RFK Jr., Michael's special friend. We're going to talk about Elon. We're going to talk about Rubio. We're going to talk about Heggars, as we call him. I think we'll do a drive by of Katie Zachariah because I just can't resist it. And. Natalie. Natalie Harp. We're going to definitely talk about Natalie Harp, who you were writing about in All or Nothing, which came out with incredible speed after Trump had just been inaugurated. The fury and the speed with which Michael writes his book is something really unparalleled practice practice. Right. It's one of the benefits of getting older. Yeah, no. And I was actually one of the books and I was I was kind of pleased with with my with myself that I had written it this fast. And then a friend of mine said, Well, you have had a lot of practice. Mean. That's very mean of them anyway. But before we get on to any of that. We should really, I think, kick off with Ukraine because it is so urgent. It is so shocking. And why? I mean, who among us thought that we would see an American president side with the aggressor side with Russia? The assumption that the Cold War had been won and that the West had won it. What is well, I mean, I think the question remember and the persistent question. You're from the beginning of of the Trump Trump's political life, at least a lot life in the White House is what does Putin have on him and what is inside Trump's head? Well, well, I mean, I think I can somewhat explain this. And, you know, one of the things, you know, there is I there was a period in the first administration when I sat around with with Steve Bannon, actually, we had gone. We saw Trump's news conference in Helsinki with Putin. And I mean, when he when they had had their private meeting and then they came out and and Steve Bannon said, God, Trump looks like a beaten dog. And then it was him trying to say, what does what does Putin have on him? And he went through all of the the the the possibilities, dismissing them all financially. Now, Trump wouldn't care about that. He could wave that away. Sexual. No, Trump just waves that away. The P tape and Bannon said, no, no, Trump would just say, that's not me. And and then and then Bannon said, said, well, maybe Putin has his transcript from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. But I actually think I think it's it's it's actually largely. Larger than that. What Trump wants most more, perhaps more than anything, is money. I think Trump in his heart, in his head wants to be an oligarch. And, you know, I said to some and this was just this was just recently I was speaking to someone in in the what in the White House. And and we were sort of talking about the you know, the money, the grift. And I said, what do you think his number is? And this person in the White House, someone very close, close to Trump. And one of the interesting things about about the people around Trump is that they are actually very objective when they talk about him, because he is as foreign to them as Trump is to us. I mean, they're being paid and they're they have to fall in line and do all the thing, all of the things that in that that. Trump demands of people, but, you know, they're clear eyed. Trump is Trump. And this person said said, well, he thought that Trump's Trump's number. And remember, I guess Trump is at about four billion now in this in the second second administration. This person said, well, that that of that I'm going to say he but I was trying not to say he. Because I am, you know, you're trying to protect the general. Yes. But he said he said he thought probably he wanted Trump wanted 20 billion by the end of his term. And he wanted to have deals in place that he could when he returns to Mar-a-Lago, he could he and his family could make one hundred billion that it really was about the money. That, you know, being the presidency, being president was nice, but being an oligarch is forever. And and that is and I think that that is that makes the most sense to me. This is at the root of Trump's interest in and admiration for Putin, that Putin is the one world leader who has access to the most money with the least amount of regulation. And so Trump right now, I think it's like I you know, Ukraine has really frustrated my ability to do a deal to be partners with Putin. I only got two years left, everything possible to close down the Ukraine situation and make deals with Putin. Let's put this in perspective. Is there a worse thing an American president has done than side with Russia at this point? I mean, you know, post Second World War, arguably, of course, Vietnam, where, you know, thousands of American soldiers lost their lives. I'm not sure how you yeah, I mean, 45,000 people died in Vietnam, 6,000 people died in in a totally pointless Iraq war. But the knock on impact of allowing Putin to stay in Ukraine. Yeah, well, it's just I mean, it's it's absolutely. Abhorrent. And the other interesting thing is it doesn't seem to work. work. I mean, the Ukrainians are, I mean, I think one of the things that we will look back on this time and we will single out the Ukrainians not only for their tenacity, but also for their brilliance and inventiveness. You know, so I mean, Trump may want this. I'm sure he does want he does from the beginning. He's wanted this situation in Ukraine to just go away. I'll solve it in an overnight. But it doesn't. And it doesn't because they are fighting for something and because they have understood how you change the nature of war. So I mean, which goes to the other thing that Trump is in the end, in so many ways, ineffectual and incompetent because he doesn't you know, what does Trump know about, about Ukraine, about the nature of warfare, about any of the things that we depend upon a president of the United States to know something about. If there's a weight loss goal, you keep chasing and never quite reaching. You're not the only one. 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To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information restrictions, visit hymns.com. Let's go back to your interview with Trump in 2016, not far from here in Beverly Hills, five, six miles away. Is it more than that? Okay, sorry. Show my ignorance there. Eight miles, eight miles. But anyway, on the corner of Cannon and Sunset, Trump had a house. Who knew? This still seems mysterious to me. Did he really own that house? Was it someone else's house? But there I was with Donald Trump in this house filled with kind of furniture cast off from hotels, it seemed to me. Um, the whole thing seems strange. It's right across the street from the Beverly Hills Hotel. I was invited there and I went in and when I got there, he opened the refrigerator door and said, do you want anything? And it was just filled. The only thing that was there were pints of Haagen-Dazs ice cream. Well, just lined up like a Haagen-Dazs fridge. Yeah, no, like, like if we were in a store, a Haagen-Dazs store, I don't know. And, um, um, uh, cherry vanilla. And, and I said, no, but it didn't make any difference. He didn't listen to me because he doesn't listen to anyone. He threw me one. And, and then we, then we sat on the, on the, on this, this overstuffed couch, um, this kind of hotel lobby couch, um, eating our ice cream together. Um, I can still see Trump just, um, um, and, um, and then we, we spoke, you know, we spoke hours actually, actually, because no, let me clarify. He spoke, um, um, I listened and, but, you know, it was, I mean, this was, this would have been in May, 2016. So still at that, at that point where it looked like he might actually get the nom, he was going to get the nomination, which was mind boggling enough, but still there was no conception in my mind, or I believe in anyone's mind that he was actually going to be the president of the United States. And, and I said to him at that, at that point, and we had known, kind of known each, each other, because I was at New York magazine in, um, um, for quite a number of years. And then he would kind of call, I was the, the sort of designated person who he would call to complain about, well, complain about stories that he might be in, might be mentioned in, but more often when he wasn't mentioned, why am I not in that story? Um, uh, I should have been in that story. You really missed it because I was et cetera, et cetera. And we had a, we had a, a, you know, a, a, a kind of, a kind of good relationship. He was certainly not in any way hostile and, you know, he got you on the phone and he would talk to you because that's what he does. Um, and, um, but, but so in the Beverly Hills house, I finally said to him, I said, okay, okay, just tell me really, why are you doing this? Why are you running for president? And that's a sort of a trick question for everyone running for president. And no, no one really has a, has a clear answer, but Trump had a clear answer, which pretty much explains everything to come. He said, and there was no hesitation here. He said to be the most famous man in the world. And I, you know, I, I, is there anything more than we have to understand that this is what this, what his initially running for president and then I think he was more astounded than anyone to be president, but then these entire 10 years, 10 years, right? Yes. Um, has been about the pursuit of attention. So let's talk about that and let's talk about what we're actually trying to do with inside Trump's head. Because I think the first few times we had conversations, we were like, why aren't people covering this differently? Why aren't people, why don't people understand that this is what's driving Trump, that he is not a normal politician. And if we cover him, as if he is a normal politician, we are missing the point. So sometimes at the beginning of the podcast, especially for new people that are joining, we try and explain what we're trying to do. And this is an audience of people who know the podcast, but just, just for, you know, a quick 60 seconds, will you explain why we are trying to do something different here that really helps try to understand his motivation? Government in almost every situation is a, is about process. It's about enormous numbers of people being involved in, um, in the bureaucratic decision-making process. Trump radically deviates from that. He doesn't care about anybody else. He doesn't even acknowledge what's going on. I'm not even sure he understands that there are other people who have, who have significant roles and significant influence. He just ignores that and, um, and has made this effectively a government of one. He has no advisors who he listens to. He has no real agenda pursuing. It's about what he wakes up in the morning thinking. He lives in the moment. Um, it's, and, and he has said, who, who, who, who is your closest advisor, Mr. President? Quite a number of people have asked him this, this question, including me. And, and his response is always unselfconsciously me. I am my main and only advisor. So in order to understand Trump, in order to understand this moment in time, in order to understand the, the politics of where we are now, you really got to understand what motivates him. What, um, what, um, what, what, what moves him at any given moment. And apart from money, the other currency that he trades in that he craves that he's good at dominating. uh, as you've just alluded to is attention. Can we take the example of the idea of streaming and execution as, as just a way that you said, why is everybody covering this? It's not going to happen. It's obvious. Well, one of the, one of the things that, that he does, and this goes on, on a, on a pretty much on a daily basis. I mean, the people, the people around him, he'll come up with an idea or he'll hear an idea and suddenly adopt it. Um, and has no, no relationship, whether this is a real idea, whether it's, it's an idea that he actually intends to pursue, whether, um, um, whether, whether he, he thinks it has any possibility at all, but he'll say, just put it out there. Just, just put it out there. And, just put it out there means let's see what the reaction is, but more importantly, let's put it out there in them. We'll see the media go crazy and he gets another news cycle, which is all about Trump. So this is, this is an administration wholly measured in news cycles. If there is a successful day, is that, is that the front page of, of the New York times, most of the headlines are Trump related. And it doesn't matter whether they are positive headlines or negative headlines, just that they are Trump headlines. And there's a fundamental, the fundamental politics, the Trump fundamental formula of Trump politics is that attention is zero sum. If he gets it, other people, in fact, if he gets it, nobody else does. And, and attention is power. Attention is success. So therefore, if nobody else gets attention, uh, you know, it's Trump's world. And the tragic thing is that turns out to be kind of true. It's also difficult, or it's also proved difficult for the Democrats to figure out how to maneuver. Manure. Manure. Manure. I think. So let's just talk about the midterms. We've seen that in fact, his policies, in as much as they are policies, have come back to haunt him. Iran, ICE, the economy, almost everything he's tried to do has not ended up well because he's incompetent and he's surrounded by a cabinet of incompetents, loyalists who have no interest in actually doing anything. And even in a broad, in a broader sense, I mean, so this administration in which he has had free reign, I mean, he said free reign because, because he's declared himself to be having, um, um, having this huge mandate. And then he's hired people who are too, too, um, weak-willed to challenge him. So he's been able pretty much to do whatever. And, and he believes that, you know, he's been able to that he can do whatever. The problem with doing whatever is that nothing is thought through here and everything collapses in and on, in a, in on itself and bites you in the ass, which every, essentially every significant policy has had that effect. Um, meaning he has, you know, the lowest, the lowest approval rating of any president in modern times. Okay. So one of his methods, uh, you have talked about is this thing where he calls people. So on the one hand, he puts things out there and sort of has the court of public opinion and the media react. The other thing he does, you say, is he has a list of people, a sort of Rolodex of people that he calls and he asks them things and he puts things out there and, you know, he gets feedback that way. How do you think that is? Well, I wouldn't exactly call it feedback. I mean, he creates his own loop. So he hears, he hears what he wants to hear. Um, and, and people know this, this kind of, it's, it's, it's a kind of, um, um, you know, call and response. Um, so he'll, he'll call and, and, and he'll say, um, uh, uh, you know, how do you think so-and-so is doing? And, um, well, he did this last week, right? With Katie Zachariah. Yeah. And that, that means, um, that means that person is cooked and everybody, everybody knows that. Um, so if you get a call like that, if you're the president, you're calling me and I go, hello, Mr. President. Um, and you go, you know, what do you think about Katie Zachariah, the new press secretary? Am I supposed to just sense that you're asking me because you want me to? Reinforce what you've already decided. Absolutely. And you will understand that. Um, and, and if, and remember, the other thing is he doesn't listen to anyone anyway. So everybody, everybody is, is, uh, is, um, uh, is, is just there for, for, for them to be an echo of what he wants. So, I mean, I've had this experience of, of him calling me, um, during the, during the first administration. And I had, I went into the White House, you know, in a way that, well, I mean, it's just one of the, a kind of inexplicable, um, circumstance in which you would just allow a, a writer to have free access, free reign. Um, you know, and that happened, you know, I mean, I, I had, I had, I had asked after, after they had won the election and Steve Bannon and I were having a kind of back and forth conversation. And I said, I would, to Steve, I said, I'd like to come into the White House as, um, as an observer. And, um, Steve said, well, you know, you gotta, you gotta ask, we gotta go talk to the boss. And so this was in Trump Tower and we went up to Trump's, Trump's office and I kind of made this pitch about coming in as an observer. And then he thought I was asking for a job, um, deputy assistant observer. Um, uh, and, um, Cause he would like that. He would like someone just to observe him. Yeah. Well, then, uh, then, well, then I said, no, no, no, no, no. I, I want to, I want to write a book. And he said, well, okay, well, whatever. Um, um, so the book means, it means just saying the word book, not interested. Um, um, uh, and then I came out of the office with, with, uh, with Bannon. Bannon said, well, he didn't say no. And literally on that basis, I was given pretty much free reign in the West wing for about seven months. But, and then toward that was Steve Bannon, by the way, talking to me, uh, every, every, every day, you know, with, with him, a kind of completely unvarnished conversation about his feelings about Trump, which were, um, um, vicious to say the least. And, but at some point that first summer, Trump started to call me and saying, what do you think about your friend, Steve? And I thought, oh, um, and of course, what was it? What was it like? Cause I remember when you would call me, Michael and I've known each other for 27 years, 28 years at this point. And I remember you calling me and saying, you're not going to believe this. I'm just sort of hanging out at the white house. And I was like, well, what do you mean? You're just hanging out there and you say, well, I don't know. I'm just sort of hanging out here. Yeah. You know, I mean, it, it, it was the, the kind of eeriest thing. I mean, of just being allowed in, in, into the white house and then, and then trying to make yourself small. So, so no one noticed that you were in the white house. Um, and then I used to sit on the couch in the West wing and everybody, you know, the West wing is a very small, it's, it's, it's actually astounding. It's, it's like the, um, you know, like a college admissions office. Um, so you became the listener fire and fury. Your first book comes out, it sells 5 million copies. And, and people are going around saying, this guy's made it up. This can't possibly be true. It's absolutely chaotic. And we learned that in fact, not only is it true, but, but it's possibly even more grotesque than the chaos you have laid out that people hate each other. They're doing everything to stop Trump doing what Trump wants to do. I think one of the things that people find very hard to understand. Um, and I want you to explain it to people because you go on and you do fire and fury. You do siege, you do landslide, you do all or nothing. Very good. Thank you. I can remember the titles better than Michael can. But people carry on talking to you. And I think I want you to explain to people, because I find it interesting when you tell me, why do people do this? And I think Lindsey Graham is the perfect example of someone who figured out how to get into Trump's court. He played golf with him 154 times. He whispered in his ear as the last person from as many times as he could, especially on Ukraine. And yet he was also talking to you because he wanted his actual understanding of who Trump was to also be. I mean, he was the ultimate political animal in a way, but he wasn't the only one. But that's even a different case. I mean, Lindsey Graham spoke to me. I think Lindsey Graham spoke to a lot of people. He was a press hound and certainly knew where his bread was buttered and was a raconteur and liked to tell those kinds of stories. But the more interesting thing is why people in Trump's close circle. So people. And Lindsey, Donald Trump couldn't fire Lindsey Graham. Anyone in the White House who was speaking about Trump was very, very well, might be fired. So why did people speak to me? And I kind of don't know the answer to this. But the other answer is, I think, is that people around Trump have, like any of us, I mean, I think it's the same. I mean, I think it's the same before. They see Trump not different than we see him. They think this is an anomalous situation. This is weird. They can't explain him. So they're looking for other people who might be able to explain them. So over time, and I've been doing this now for four books for 10 years, you develop relationships. There are people. There are people in the Trump circle who I am very friendly with. I mean, friendly with over a long period of time. And it's sort of, you know, I have to justify it in my own head. How can I be friends with people who work for Donald Trump? I mean, key people in Donald Trump's circle. And the explanation is that you become friends with people who you have just known for a long period of time. And you kind of excuse them, or you also find that they do have this interesting perspective on him. They know a lot about this guy, and they have a certain amount of clarity about him. And also, in their divided self, they stand back and look at him, and they say, oh, my God. And people call me up, and it's remarkable how many conversations begin with, I pick up the phone, and somebody says, you won't believe it. And then they narrate. What's? What's gone on? And, of course, the question is, well, why do you work for him? And that's another complicated question. I mean, and partly the answer is that if your profession is to be a Republican political operative, Donald Trump just came to own the party. He is the only game in town. Okay, so is he the only game in town? Because in exactly two weeks, we've got the midterm election. Yeah, yeah. I mean, is your question what happens? Well, my question is, you have always said, and we did a themed issue about this last week, that Donald Trump doesn't see winning and losing in the way that the rest of us do. That everything he does is he somehow manages to seize victory. And I think that's a very important point. We saw what happened in 2020 when he convinced himself, I think, that he'd won. And he convinced lots of other people he'd won. And then he refused to acknowledge that he could possibly have lost. So I guess my. I just, I have never thought that he really convinced anybody. There are a certain group of people who decided that their bread was buttered on agreeing with him. I think that the only person truly convinced that he had won. was Donald Trump himself. Or truly convinced that the election was stolen from him was Donald Trump. And do you actually think he. Absolutely. Right. And I have spent really a lot of time listening to him on this subject. And the way he talks about the numbers, I mean, these numbers come out of his head. I mean, they're all meaningless. But he. He actually misunderstands them. And so it's several levels removed from reality. There are the numbers that he's supposed to say, but then he transposes them because he's innumerate. And then there are other numbers. And you go, oh, my God. So what happens if. Let's assume for the sake of our audience. And we all want a bit of sort of sunshine on the horizon. Let's assume that there is a blue wave. And it's clear that the Democrats have won at least the House. How does Trump. What happens to Trump when he becomes officially a lame duck? Well, I mean, I think there's. I mean, there's several things there, you know, and several scenarios. You know, what happens if he. If he. If he. If he loses the. Loses the House and by how much? Loses the House and holds the Senate. Or what happens if he, you know, if he loses the House by, you know, by a landslide and then loses the Senate too? Well, then. A lot of wishful thinking going on. Well, then the first thing. Then the next thing that happens is he loses his shit. I mean, we're in a. We're in a new world and he's in a new world. If it's a really blue wave, which I think it has the possibility to be, if the numbers are so great, then that's a different story what happened. That's certainly a losing his shit story. The danger is in this highly polarized time, and with everything, all of this money that the Republicans are now mustering and spending, with everything that they've done, that it will be close. I think the Democrats still win, but it will be close. Then that's going to be a difficult, my God, a difficult week, two weeks, three weeks of the Republicans and Trumps. Trump fighting every seat, every victory. And I don't. I think in the end, as has happened before, the numbers, the true numbers will prevail, and there will probably be a safe. There will be a Democratic House. And so that's kind of. One scenario. And in that scenario, yeah, Trump just doesn't. Then it's stole. We just go through the same thing. They stole it again. It's that. He won. The Democrats are. Everything that we've heard, we've heard in the past. And one of the things that Trump always does is just go back to the playbook that worked for him before. If, however, it really is a substantial win on the part of the Democrats, then Trump has to reconfigure this in a way. And I think then it becomes, again, a battle for attention. And he'll revert to attention is zero sum. So then it becomes even more Trump than it has been. It becomes even more outrageous. It becomes more. He wants every headline. So, I mean, what happens? I'm, you know, we invade Cuba. We. Can he do that? I mean, he's had a very compliant Congress. I mean, he's had a supine Congress. If. if um if the house goes democratic can he actually invade cuba sure of course of course he just gets on and does it yeah of course um i mean it's it's like tearing down it's like it's like tearing down golf courses i mean you just do it and then fight about it later in all of these things it's just to grab the headline it doesn't really matter what he can do what he will do you do it you grab the headline from for trump that's victory attention is the win okay so he did that with iran iran has not worked out in the way that he thought it might do because of venezuela how does he get out of iran what what's inside donald trump's head about iran right now i'm kind of mushed right in fact our design our very design yeah um no i mean he doesn't know what's what's going on there i think it's incredibly um um i was going to say frustrating but it's it's it's it's it's enraging to him that this has not worked out and he can't understand why it has not worked out i mean you know i mean trump is his understanding of anything is on the most simplistic and basic level we have the biggest most powerful military in the world in in all of history so how can you possibly explain how we would not be able to defeat a little country and and and that is literally every day that question gets asked in some way that rhetorical question trump asks in some way um and and no one there is no answer that satisfies him um is it likely after the election that we will go back to bombing iran i i think yeah i think that there's a good good likelihood is it likely that we will go back to bombing iran with no effect whatsoever and that we will just repeat this cycle again yeah that's likely too um is it likely that if he loses the house and the senate that there are that they stop the funding for this that is also likely and then trump will blame them for losing the war mm-hmm so i mean and it's interesting because he and putin now have that in common they're both stuck in a war that's going on and they're both stuck in a war that's going on and they're at the moment they can't get out of one of the things we know is that jd vance has been very clear in regime change and putting out there that he was not for this war that he's tried to distance himself do you think jd vance inherits the maga base does he inherit trumpism or does trumpism fizzle once trump isn't there any longer yeah yeah i mean without without without any question it is it is the latter trump is absolutely unique we have never seen anyone like him we will never see anyone like him again when when trump departs this veil of tears he will leave very little left um meaning that none of us will be here that america will have vanished that he may have blown up the world no i don't think so i think i think very little left of of trump trump politics i mean i think that this is an aberration but you know trump you know where is he going um he's not he's not going and and i don't mean that at the end of you know 2028 29 he departs the white house i mean i don't mean that at the end of you know 2028 29 he departs the white house i mean i don't i really mean he needs to leave this earth because he will return to mar-a-lago in 2029 and he will effectively set up a counter white house and he will be a a constantly a constant presence grasping even more than grasping probably succeeding in getting getting having his attention rival whoever becomes the president and in this the president will not be a republican so jd vance is jesus i i if i were any i would just go home so trump is not going to allow the next president to be a republican thereby superseding him so um so it will be a you know it will be a democrat who then he will then you know conflict is conflict is his um um his his food just what he eats what about you have talked about and i love your personal anecdotes of having spent a month with him in alabama uh when his uncle was running for we're trying to get the democrats to run for president and he's running for president and he's primary, talking obviously about RFK, who you see very much as beginning to build his own platform now to run in 2028. Now, I know, I know, I know. But who thought that Donald Trump could get elected? And here is a man with a Kennedy brand that has a following. Do you think he's going to run? Yeah, I think he's, well, I think he's certainly going to try to run and certainly considering running and certainly has stars in his eyes and certainly understands and certainly believes this is his destiny. So, so I've known, I've known Bobby Kennedy since we were both in our 20s. And even then I thought this is the craziest guy I have ever met. I mean, truly like what? Whoa. And, and, and I would have said, and I, I certainly felt then that any, that he didn't have a destiny, that this, that, that his destiny was, um, he had been the, the Kennedy destiny. He was, was going to fall there with him. And, um, um, and I, and I could not have been more stunned that his, by his revival at the age of 70. 73. Well, now, now 73, yes. Um, but when, when this campaign, you know, when he started to run for president in, um, in 2024, um, and, and, and that was a, that was really created by, um, That was in part a Steve Bannon thing. And the whole thing was they were going to get RFK Jr. to run, and that would run as a Democrat. And then their plans got kind of turned in on themselves because then he decided to run as an independent and started to take pull from both the Democrats and the Republicans. And when Kamala Harris, when Biden withdrew and Kamala Harris replaced Biden, the sort of. His Democratic supporters went with her. So at that point, then the Republicans had to make a deal and they made this serious devil's bargain with him to take over health and human services and suddenly making him a serious MAGA contender. And giving him a huge influence over public health in America too, which is just astounding. As someone shouted out, Let us not forget the brain worm over there. Let us not forget the brain worm. Let us not forget cutting off the raccoon penis. Let us not forget the bear in Central Park, the roadkill bear. And now, of course, I recommend to all of you his absolutely extraordinary podcast, which I can't remember what it's called now. It's How to Cook in America or something, where he brings in chefs who constantly try to create a connection with him. And he has a great team. He has no sense of humor, barely registers that they're there. It's the weirdest, weirdest thing. Only bested by story time with the second lady. Because when we read, we grow, which is what she does. It's the most. They've all got podcasts, these people. And I'm happy to say that our podcast eats their podcast for lunch. So. We've got J.D. Vance running. We've got RFK Jr., still Jr. at 73, running. Heggers, the state of the force, his speech two, three weeks ago, his putting out there that there was going to be an execution and it would be streamed. You immediately said, well, this is his platform. He's running. Does Colonel Vodka? Don't forget Marco Rubio. No, no, I'm going to come on to Rubio, but I thought you might want to give us a couple of minutes on Heggers because Heggers, as you remind us, Colonel Vodka, which is Roger Ailes' name. So when he worked for Fox, Roger Ailes would call him Colonel Vodka. I wonder why. And, yeah, I mean, again, one of those people that you can't even because you can't even tell. I mean, again, to summon a logical train of thought to say why he should be the Secretary of Defense. The Secretary of Defense. That means he runs the largest bureaucratic organization in the world. With such, I mean. A 1.5. Just that. Just that. Just that. Just imagine the management demands of running this kind of organization and imagine that the person who would have to rise to those management demands is the co-host of a weekend television show. Well, and he ran two veteran affairs, not one, but two veteran affairs organizations and was drummed out for incompetence. I think what you keep saying. And I think you dignify his experience by saying that these were hardly, these were nothing organizations. So nobody, I mean, which nothing organizations which he failed to run in any kind of competent manner. But that is not management experience at any level. So he's put into this position to be, you know, and the Secretary of Defense is customarily someone with experience. extensive experience in military, in business management. That's what the job is. It's management of a complex, arguably the most complex corporate organization on earth. That's Hager's. That's what Hager's does. That's the person we gave this job to. Well, does Hager's do it or does Hager's wife do it? I mean, Jennifer is in the Pentagon at all times. There are photographs of her everywhere. She's brought in her best friend as his advisor. Well, I mean, the truth is that that means nobody does it. So, I mean, is she in there throwing her weight around? Yes, obviously. And their way of, their method of management is just to fire anyone who might be capable of managing. So that leaves Marco Rubio of the immediate crew around Donald Trump. He's often thought of as being the grown up in the room. I don't know who thinks that actually, but I feel like it's one of those phrases out there about him. Does he seem to you a likely candidate? Well, I think he will run. I mean, none of these people seem, there is no Republican who is a contender who Donald Trump will not undermine and humiliate and in the end make sure that this person. That whoever the candidate, the nominee is, wins, won't happen. I guess maybe the only person, people who could make it happen are the Democrats who are, of course, have a talent for, but we'll save that. But the last thing that Donald Trump can allow to happen is for a Republican to become the president, which would then marginalize Donald Trump. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Was there a more glorious moment than two weeks ago when Marco Rubio arrives in the Hellenic Republic to stand in front of the Acropolis? Who greets him as he arrives? Kimberly Guilfoyle in a bear hug and, of course, dominates Kimberly Guilfoyle's shenanigans and her desperation to get her $100,000 Amex bill paid off by Eric Dieters. Well, it ruined Paul Rubio's tour. The only question. The only questions he got were about our Greek ambassador. Jesus, Kimberly Guilfoyle. But this is. Former first lady of Just Up the Road, San Francisco. Ah, yes. Did you see Gavin Newsom's comments when asked about her this weekend? He said, oh, we haven't spoken for a bit. I wish her well. Yes. No, I mean, I think it's, I mean, if Gavin Newsom runs for president, when Gavin Newsom runs, runs for president, there'll be some explaining to do. I mean, how do you explain, how do you explain marrying Kimberly Guilfoyle? You say, well, it was a mistake. I don't know. I didn't know. She turned into, she was a nice girl then. I don't know. We had, we had a column in the Daily Beast this week, which I urge you all to read by one of her former friends, Jamie Floyd, who said that she took, when Kimberly left San Francisco, moved to New York, they were hanging out together. And Kimberly said to Jamie, I'm going to leave Gavin. And Jamie was like, why? Why would you leave him? You guys are a power couple in San Francisco. And she said, this marriage isn't big enough for our two egos. She knew it. She knew it. Turns out the Hellenic Republic isn't big enough for her ego. for her ego either. All right. So it's time for some questions, which I'm very excited to pour into. I've got the code word for this computer. And we've got some good questions actually here. Well, I tell you what we should do. We should have a quick update, two questions here about that, on your case with Melania. So for those of you who don't know, Well, this is a home crowd. Michael is suing the first lady. Let me see if I can do this. And I suspect there are people in the audience that probably contributed to your legal fund. Yes. You may want to thank people. And I do. I am grateful every day. And this has really enabled us to become a real thorn in the side of the White House and the first lady. But just to summarize, I said something actually in a podcast that we did connecting Melania Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. As a matter of fact. It was actually relatively mild. I said that they were in the same social circle together. I also did say that Jeffrey Epstein said that the first time Melania and Donald Trump had sex together was on his airplane. Okay. At any rate, there arrived a letter from Melania Trump's lawyer. Also a lawyer for her husband, the lawyer who does all of his media threats, threatening me with a $1 billion lawsuit. And in New York State, there are laws against this. They're called anti-slap laws. And we sued, before she could sue us, we sued her. Somebody in the. Somebody I know. I know in the White House said to me, said, well, no one saw that coming. And now we are involved in a long Trump-like legal fight, which is that their strategy is to play this out as long as possible and to cost me as much money as possible. Confounding to them, again, is that we. We have raised so much money, and thank you, everyone, that we are able, we are able, so far, at least, to match them dollar for dollar. Now, the complicated. So, right now, at this point in time, we sued them in state court. They moved this to federal court. The federal court judge dismissed part of this, but didn't. They're going to rule on the actual, the actual matter at hand. This is now being appealed in, we have, we are then, are, can, we continue to argue this in the, um, um, now in the second circuit waiting for a ruling on that. Meanwhile, they have sued, they have moved to sanction my lawyers, which is, um, uh, in, in, in one of those things that they, they moved, the judge said, well, Hey, you know, you know, if you say, if you move this, I'm probably going to rule against it. And, and you therefore, um, set yourself up to be, to be, um, for them to move for sanctions against you. Um, but they went forward with this anyway, just because that, that will cost another hundred thousand dollars. So this is, this is the Trump, the Trump method on this. But again, thanks to, uh, to you and to some 25,000 others, uh, we have enough money and we will continue to pursue this. And, um, uh, okay. So I have, there are lots of very, very good questions from people in the audience. I want to whip through some, uh, and if I don't get to your question, I'm, I'm sorry. There's just so many, uh, very good question here from someone called Ico Allegria. Does Trump have a weakness? It's a very good question. I think that what, what is his weakness? No, you know, in a, in a way I, I don't think he, he does, which, which goes to his own, own lack of self-awareness, lack of internal interior life. Um, uh, he's, he's just, uh, um, you know, it's, it's just, he's just the brutish presence. Um, I mean, I suppose his, you, you, you could say his weakness is if we all stopped paying attention to him, what would happen to Donald Trump without attention? Um, so another, what was that? More Haagen-Dazs. All right. So a question here, a great question from Corey Dickinson. If Bannon hates Trump so much, why did he go to jail for him? Do you remember he went to jail for four months? Yeah, no, because. Because Bannon, I mean, Bannon is, is, uh, one of the, I mean, I find him a really interesting person of incredibly intelligent person, incredibly, uh, perceptive and insightful. I also find him the most opportunistic person I have ever in my life met. Um, and, um, and so going to jail was his, his play for the MAGA base. I mean, Steve is also, kind of messianic in a way. I mean, that he does have a kind of belief that maybe he should be president or he should be, he should be the MAGA movement. He believes is his movement. So he was going to go into jail for the MAGA movement, not really for Trump. Although he understands that, that Trump is the, is Trump. Trump is his, is his way into the, he cannot alienate himself from Trump. And I've spent a lot of time trying to say to, to Steve Bannon, you know, you should just cut off, cut, you should cut Trump. You, there are other, there are other populist candidates who you might well get elected president. Like Tucker Carlson? And Bannon don't are kind of more rivals than that. Um, but I will say that I had an idea once I said to Steve Bannon, I said, I know who you can get elected president. I have a candidate for you. Um, and, um, uh, a person who's incredible, who's, who's incredibly rich and beloved in his state and in a true populist at, at heart. Um, and this is, uh, uh, my friend Matt Stone, who's, who's one of the, the co-writers of South Park. Um, and Matt, Matt is a very deeply engaged with, with, with politics. And I, I find his, his politics a very interesting blend of, of, I mean, you would not be able to say if he's a Republican. And I thought this was a match and I had them to dinner and it was a disaster. OK, so we have another question here from someone who's just left. Her name is Anna, but her email is Anna Graham, which is pretty good. She's saying, obviously, Trump 2.0, much more oppressive than Trump 1. During Trump 1, we know there were all sorts of people that went to the White House thinking they could put up guardrails. Is there anybody with good intentions still left in the Oval Office, or are they all there just helping themselves hand over fist? Yeah, I mean, that's it. I mean, there's nothing. You cannot say find any hopeful. Yeah, there is. I mean, this second administration is a what you see is what you get. So Thomas Seehusen wants to know, did you get security clearance when you were hanging out at the White House? Was that ever a thing? No, it was never a thing. Right. I mean, you don't really need security clearance. I mean, that's not. I mean, you need security clearance if you're getting a job. But Deputy Assistant Observer apparently didn't need that. I mean, it's actually, it's not hard to get into the White House. You just need someone in the White House to, as they say, put you in the system, put you in the system. So Mars Holden Montini, what a marvelous name, wants to know if the if the Democrats win the midterms, do you think Trump accepts it? Well, I think it's a question by what by what measure do they win? you know, there are, there's a numerical threshold in which, you know, there's not much you can do that just, you're, the numbers overwhelm any kind of resistance you could put up. If it's close, well, then it's going to be, then it's trench warfare for, for quite some time. Trench warfare. Will any of Trump's children turn on him? That is a question from Aaron Gartland. What is Trump's relationship with his children? I mean, he didn't go to Don Jr.'s second wedding. He's their employer. I mean, I really think that is, they understand the money flows from there. The business is there. They don't have a separate life from that. He's the boss. And I think that whatever the psychological, you know, it's not pretty. You know, he doesn't treat them well. He doesn't regard them well. You know, he thinks they're, you know, especially the boys are inferior. You know, he went around for a while saying about Don Jr. He wished he could take his name back. I mean, Trump, Trump is not, to say the least, is not a nice guy. I mean, he's a prick. I mean, in certainly in the in the most basic way to his to his family, to his children, it's, it's, you know, and I mean, I think that they're all broken in their own way. I mean, I remember, and I may be the only person that read Ivana's memoir, in which she refers to herself as America's mother, where she basically talks about having the three children, Ivanka, Don and Eric, and then basically at age 18, handing them over to Donald Trump and him taking them into the business. I mean, they went to college, but that he took them in and then sort of made them work for him. Do they like him? Do they respect him? Are they terrified of him? Yeah, no, I think that they're, you know, I mean, just imagine if your father was Donald Trump. I mean, having to put up with that, but at the same time having to be being beholden to that. I mean, I think at some point you just, I mean, I guess you either flee and they haven't fled or you accept. What else can we do? So you have often said that the one person that got out of Trump won ahead was Jared Kushner. Can you talk about the son-in-law's role right now? I mean, I find it amazing that he seems to have been given this global at large diplomatic role, which he does with his little chum, Steve Witkoff, the former golf buddy, who's being talked about now as a potential, potential replacement for Susie Wiles we haven't talked about Susie Wiles actually we should do that too but but let's just have a minute on Jared and Steve yeah you know I mean I said that Steve Bannon is the most opportunistic person I've ever met but um um but Jared is the the most um incredibly opportunistic person I've ever met I mean you know I I I used to think Jared was a kind of a weakling um not least of all because Bannon used to make fun of him in the White House in a particularly cruel kind of way but at the end I mean Jared is really the only person who has who survived the first administration and I think that he has he was the one person in the first administration who could work Trump who could handle Trump who understand what was going on in the United States and he was the one person in the United States who could work Trump who could handle Trump who understand what was going on in the United States and he was the one person in the United States who could work Trump who could handle Trump who understood him and and what he understood is you know you just you just had to you could only do what in his case his father-in-law wasn't interested in doing and he understood the margins at which you could you could then operate and I think then then and then he was intelligent enough to get out of that situation and to get out of that situation and to get out of that situation and to get out of that situation and to get out of that situation and to get out of the White House and I think he is back in the White House now or at least in the White House orbit again tending to his own business interests and what about Steve Witkoff I mean rumored to be a candidate to replace Susie Wiles if Steve Witkoff is a real dummy I mean a real zero I mean he's he's you know you know he's the golf buddy I mean what are his credentials golf buddy so I mean in in that sense he'd be he might be of you know he is the kind of the kind of chief of staff that Donald Trump wants a chief of staff who has no pretense that he is there to do anything else but be the golf buddy and is Susie Wiles does Susie Wiles actually have I mean you've you've talked about her as not being a typical chief of staff that she that she is more of an administrator does she keep things running on time I mean when when she's not involved in decisions it does feel like some of them go wrong most recently Katie Zachariah who Susie Wiles wasn't involved in didn't know about and very quickly dispatched yeah I don't I don't see that as as as as too exceptional I mean Donald Trump largely makes his own personal decisions um you know the cabinet is filled with people who are not filled with people Susie Wiles would not have picked and in her own way try to oppose but not too much oppose um so and she understands you just don't cross into Donald Trump's space she is not there you know typically a chief of staff there is is to be the president's ultimate advisor um to be a one of the president's managers uh to be the um uh to to be the the the second most important person in the White House um and she is not that at all and understands that's not what Donald Trump wants all of the chiefs of staff of the I think the four chiefs of staff of the first administration all kind of thought well I'm the chief of staff to the president of the United States and this is what a chief of staff does wrong wrong wrong um and that's why Susie Wiles has been to date the most successful chief of staff because it's it's it's it's all following a Jared model and remember she's brought into the into the Trump orbit by Jared she's Jared's person um and um it has all been you know you tend to things you tend to the things that Trump is not interested in okay so let's talk about Trump and women for a second because we know that Melania is not really living in the White House she's treated as if she's a guest when she's there she's actually spending her time largely in New York or in Florida who is yeah it's it's no marriage it's a you know this is a it's a a charade of a marriage that sounded very English a charade of a marriage I expect you to look oh it's a charade of a marriage um anyway uh someone asked for more of my impressions I'm going to save that for more podcasts but thank you Yuta for for asking more she wanted more Melania impressions um he is only fire my husband is only fire of worlds wonderful um anyway Natalie Harp I mean Natalie Harp Natalie Harp so when you wrote All or Nothing which came out what was it two months after Trump had been inaugurated second time around and I know you were frantically writing the book because we would we would talk in between you taking breaths um you kept saying there is this woman who is just there all the time just are we assuming and we've certainly talked about this on the podcast that Trump is well you've said that people at the White House assume he's post-sex yeah I mean I feel as a former editor of Cosmo I can raise this legitimately but it's an interesting question he's 80 years old he's in his ninth decade he's got swollen ankles he's got strange bruises on his hand that he smothers in makeup he's got let's not forget 300 pounds he's well he says well he's put on 15 pounds in the last year right he says he's 238 pounds or something but we know he's not um okay let's just assume in on the basis of good taste that Trump is post-sex what is what is Natalie Harp doing there did everybody hear that at the back yeah I um I I mean I think you know and there was so so during the campaign she started to become a kind of significant presence around Trump early in the campaign and then became a more and more and more and more central presence um and um and and I think it was all about this this kind of she's in love with the guy um she's love sick I mean these letters and you know the people on in the staff passed me these letters that they that they had she used to put letters you know she would print out his stuff the human printer and um and then in this in these material that she would print she would insert these letters that she had written to him and this became a a subject of great concern by the staff by the secret service I mean at one point the secret service said to the staff essentially said to Susie Wiles you know we consider her a threat to um to the president and to herself so so what what does that actually mean that she be a threat to the she means she's a she's a crazy person and she's she's kind of recognized everybody recognized there's something really off here um and um and that was of a enormous concern and how did she get into his circle in the first place I mean it's not like you can just go up to the president it is like you can just go up to the president I mean it's a sort of just a competition of flattery who can who can flatter this man more than anyone else it's a contest um and um and she won the contest I mean because I mean I think deeply I think it's it's I mean a lot of people around him are flattering him for cynical reasons I don't think her reasons are cynical I think her reasons are she is she's devoted to him she's somehow fixated on Donald Trump imagine um and um um and and she makes this very very clear and and I think he understands that this person is devoted so people in the and during the campaign there will be at several points it was this is an emergency what do we do about this um and there was long discussions do we go to Melania um do we um um do we uh do we show go to the go to uh the president the candidate which they finally did there there was at one point a a delegation um and they you know speaking in the there was at one point a a delegation um and there was at one point a a delegation um and there was at one point a a delegation um somewhat of the veiled way you would have to speak to them because you certainly can't confront Donald Trump um and he said oh you know you know and then his words were she just loves her president i mean it's i i i think that this is one of those other things this is over a line beyond the pale um something that um that everyone within the white house has been forced to accept because because he wants it and how do you think it might end if she's if she's genuinely in love with him and if she is uh it's clearly a very unusual relationship um how how does it how do you think it might end i think she'll go back to tomorrow lago with him after he leaves the white house um and you you know i don't know live out her life with with with or live out his life i don't i don't know i mean at the same time remember donald trump even someone who's who adores him and and um um and who he's come to count on that could change in a second and we know that melania's not there that you say the the marriage is a charade does melania mind about natalie hart yeah i think it's just part of the many grievances that melania has against against her husband of course okay so there's a question here i love this question wait a minute where's it gone um it said michael in the 10 years since you've been covering the white house was there a moment when you realized we are really fucked um let me count them um um yeah you know but it but it becomes i mean i guess in the first in the first administration in it it might have been in actually quite early on when people around trump would discuss it and say you know you know he he doesn't and it was kind of you know he doesn't read anything um really and they would say nothing and then there would be a kind of discussion well you know you know was he add or was he semi-literate or was he just actually completely illiterate um because nothing you would hand them a piece of paper shove it away they had this this gesture just wave it wave it away um and so these people in the white house saying this is you know i mean he's the president of the states this is the most information intensive job on earth arguably um and um and he doesn't read and then they say but that's not the only problem the other problem is that he doesn't listen and they would say he doesn't listen at all there is no you you just can't interrupt him it's just a constant constant monologue so he didn't read and he doesn't listen how do you how do you get information to him and the answer is he gets no information um i mean it just doesn't come and matter of fact steve bannon had a had an analysis he said he's an information phobe he just doesn't he just doesn't want to know um and he certainly doesn't want you to tell him so uh i thought i thought i thought you know this is this is this is pretty bad and is that because he just always wants to be the smartest man in the room or thought well i think it's i think no i mean i think it's the it's it's it's far different there's a lot of people who want to be that a lot of presidents who no doubt um felt that they were the smartest man in the room um i think that he wants not to be the dumbest man in the room so it's a different it's kind of turns that on its on its head i mean here's a man who i think really really knows nothing um i mean profoundly so no information gets to him everything is made up everything comes from him so it's his entire conception of the world that comes out and it's a conception of the world that is um that is not in in in any way schooled or disciplined or ordered or informed well you are disciplined and informed michael wolf someone here someone called kate said i see michael needs much less editing in real life uh and in fact you don't need almost any editing even when we are editing the podcast i know we joke about it but i think that you get a sense from i hope our that the conversations we have on the podcast three times a week where we venture inside trump's head or spelunk uh inside trump's head uh for those of you who joined us right at the beginning um we'll we'll know that we start conversations they go where they go and i hope that you've had the opportunity to sort of see that this evening i wanted to just say we are hugely grateful to the people who do listen and watch us uh week after week it's enormously encouraging for us to know that you are out there and please leave us your comments those of you in the room you get thursday off because we'll be running this evening or you can you can listen to it on thursday and see if you can hear your own laugh or your own heckle uh but you can see if i've been edited you can see if you've been edited i don't think you've said anything that would trigger the lawyers sometimes michael says things and the lawyers are like but um but i think tonight you've been on best behavior but this is an opportunity for us to thank you for being such loyal supporters for leaving your comments and for encouraging us to to go inside trump's head so a huge thanks to you to our production team and to the staff of the telegram ballroom yeah i feel like there are there are more people to thank but in fact big shout out to the staff of the telegram ballroom who made all this go relatively flawlessly i think it's a lovely room it's very nice sitting up here and well we'll be back at it and thank you to joanna coles someone someone asked me what it says on my teacher and it just says blondie so this is for all the blondes out there michael i think i think we're due to leave the stage thank you all so much for coming out big thanks to our production team ryan murray john romero rachel passer heather passaro and neil rosenhouse so the good news is we have so many b beast tier members now there are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support