This Is How Idiot Trump Is Being Played by China

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Here we are again, episode 170 of Inside Trump's head where we go to try and explain what has turned out to be a government of one. Correct. Correct. And you are Michael Wolfe, you've written four books on Donald Trump but essentially you spent the last ten years inside his head. And I think it's fair to say he's inside yours. You know what happens when he leaves? Well don't let's worry about that. It's okay because yes that is not going to happen anytime soon. It's not going to happen. And as you've said what will happen after he leaves the White House assuming he does and Steve Bannon was out yesterday saying he's definitely going for a third term. Steve, Steve Bannon is and I let's just as Steve Bannon is one of the the great. Well he's one of the great gas bags of all time although I like Steve and Steve is always always smart but what he is saying there is. Is Trump will go for a third term in in a metaphorical sense. Okay so he's going to set up his alternate administration at Mar-a-Lago. Yes he will leave the White House, leave it with billions of dollars that he has extorted from corporate America. Set up a counter White House in Mar-a-Lago which he will love because this is great for him because he doesn't actually then have to do the work of being. The president of the United States and he just gets to draw attention from whoever becomes the president of the United States. Therefore becoming clearly a rival or often it might seem a replacement president. Okay good well we can get into more of that this morning we've got a lot to get to. We're going to get into our vehicles of the daily beast and Michael and I will be appearing live the Terra Graham ballroom in downtown L.A. On October the 20th so please come and join us if you're in the vicinity and you can go to beast.pub/ithlive. That's beast.pub/ithlive to biotic. We'll go to ticket master but we would love to see you come and meet us and I think there's a meet and greet available and we're looking forward to getting into it. And Michael will promise you that he is even wilder when he's not within the confines of a podcast. I would say more precise. You are more precise. Okay well we have a lot to be precise about today we've got she's visit which we need to unpack. We've got Melania's launching of a female network and my efforts to join which have come to naught. We've got a fascinating story about the privatization of American diplomacy in the form of none other than our favourite character I think it's fair to say. She's certainly in our top 10 Michael Kimberly Gilfoil the former Fox News anchor who was once incredibly married to Gavin Newsom. I mean what a story and now she's found a very close Greek male friend who is helping her as she develops business ties in Greece and in that part of Europe where we have well oddly we have almost no ambassadors other than Kimberly Gilfoil. Who viewers and listeners will remember was also the fiance of Donald Trump Jr. And then of course Donald Trump Jr. recently got married to Bettina Anderson daughter of a former financial adviser to Jeffrey Epstein and their wedding party was paid for by a Russian oligarch. Donald Trump has said they have to pay him back but who knows if they will. And let me just interject that Kimberly Gilfoil and Donald Trump Jr. bought a $10 million house in Palm Beach which precipitated a raging argument between father and son hardly an argument really father yelling at son. Where did you get this money? Where did this money come from? Can you remember what Roger Ailes ever told you about Kimberly Gilfoil? Of course we not only did we speak about Kimberly Gilfoil rather often but Kimberly Gilfoil was on the plane Sean Hannity's plane that I took down to Roger Ailes's funeral. And I think I've pointed out before that Kimberly Gilfoil was without and this is my wife spotted this I did not, my wife did without a particular article of clothing. I think we described it as going basic instinct. Yes. Every day your personal information is exposed somewhere online your email address your financial details even your health information. It's not about being careful anymore it's about the hundreds of data brokers who collect and sell your data without your consent. You can't harm you if they can't find you and that's where in Cogni comes in. In Cogni automatically sends removal requests and follows up across more than 420 harmful sites helping get your personal information removed from places you may not even know exists. You can find where your information appears online and recurring removals help keep it from coming back you can also track your progress get monthly risk assessments and reach 24/7 live chat support to get an exclusive 60% of an annual in Cogni plan. Go to incogni.com/beast or click the link in the episode description that's incogni.com/beast. Well we will come on to that Wall Street Journal piece later because it's a fascinating deep dive into what Kimberly has been up to and indeed as Donald Trump pointed out the very good looking young man that is helping her and many people have thought what's her chief of staff and in fact of course. We'll come to this we'll come to this yes he's not the best all right all right we'll come to it all right Michael she's visit let's discuss. You know I mean it's kind of fascinating that what don't that Donald Trump loves these visits he loves putting on the ritz for whatever foreign leader it it's I think it's probably one of the high points of. What he does as president but it's completely removed from what he's supposed to achieve as president in other words you do these summits these summits are and the. This is all this is all a cover for what goes on in in that what we don't see so here we see this we see the dinners and we see this celebratory. Aspects of this we see the pageantry and that's a cover for what's happening behind the scenes what's happening behind the scenes here in in Donald Trump's world is nothing at all I mean it is it is in other words the less point there is the more he loves it so. So it doesn't you know what he gets out of this is just the show there will be no advance advance in our relationship with China no true understandings no no lessening of tensions or no clarifying of the issues between us none of that will happen here at least on our side I think on. think on, on. China side on she's side. They will have this is probably all that they are doing the pageantry is irrelevant to them What they are doing is triangulating Donald Trump and you know I've had this described to me by White House people of What happens when he goes into these meetings now the background of these kinds of meetings is that it's really hard work You know, you get briefing books you have all all of the various the various constituents in The government who have issues that they want on the table are presented It's a it's a difficult moment for any president Because you you I mean you're the guy and you got to know what you're talking about if you don't know what you're talking about You know, you're given away the store So I mean, it's kind of like what what can you compare? I mean, it's it's sort of it's sort of like merger negotiations between big companies And if you're the CEO you have to you have to represent the interest of your shareholders And it's also you're representing your own interest and And the return is going to be in dollars and cents. Well, the return here is not in dollars and cents But it's certainly well sometimes it is in in the in the trade relationships between nations But it's also a matter obviously of security It's a matter of what the the the global the complications of global of global diplomacy Cause and effect. I mean this is the the world changes the world turns on these kinds of Kinds of meetings not with Trump Trump goes into these meetings. He can't he he he refuses to look at the briefing books refuses to have extensive conversations about about the issues at hand doesn't Care I suppose doesn't know what he's talking about. It's all I can handle it I'm good. He always is always saying I'm really good with this and then he goes into these meetings And all it all it is is flattery him flattering the other side and the other side I think very clearly taking an understanding what they can get by this and I'm trying to Circumvent using the word buffoon, but I think that's that's that's what they see him as it's I think they're like oh my god Right. Oh my god. So who would traditionally brief Trump it's something Marco Rubio would say hey, listen to a couple of points as you need going into to she don't say this I mean, there's more than a couple of pointers There's there's weeks of preparation that are necessary here There are yes Marco Rubio, but then the State Department would bring an enormous amount of other resources to bear on on on on this But if Trump is an information foe as you say then How do they how do they slim it down? How do they whittle it down to the one or two points? And I'm assuming it's really about trade with she and maybe about Taiwan, how do they slim that down? So he's got two things in his head when he goes in Oh, that's what they do instead, but that's I you know, they give him they give him two points You got to do this and this and even that Usually doesn't register with him. I mean, I mean this is something I Don't think I don't even know how people you can get people to appreciate this How do you get people to appreciate that the presidency is is has a the workload of the presidency is extensive and if you don't do it If you adamantly don't do the work Can you do the work? What happens? What's the effect? That's really hard in That's really hard to make clear to to To voters and to the mayor. I mean first, it's incredible. So he doesn't do the work He can't do the work the president of the United States does not know what he's talking about in these situations How do you begin to explain that to people and Within the White House itself and they have had the people within the White House have to have to explain it to themselves What do we do here? But that becomes for for for them a kind of well. It's it's It's Donald Trump You know, he's been elected twice he must know what he's doing and I think I think even parts of the country Many perhaps a large part of the country falls back on that kind of thinking when the reality is nothing nothing nothing nothing and years years from now or not even years from now I think we will start to see the effects of this why did this happen? How did this possibly happen and again the background here remember he became the president in 2016 Part of his a primary part of his platform was the The existential battle between the United States and China and he was the only one recognizing that the only one Who wasn't bending to the prospects of of of of of of of of what we could gain from China's great great wealth and What has happened in in the 10 years since then is that China has just become stronger and stronger and more and more dominant and and if in this existential competition with the the US it has It has moved into the in I mean it's I think virtually everyone regards this as not if but When they supersede the US as the central world power Okay, so I have a question. I've been dying to ask you when she is at the state dinner and he's giving his speech He says that he hopes that America and China don't fall into the Thucydides trap where the challenge of power basically provokes the traditional power Into a war and he and I discussed this on the database podcast yesterday But what I wanted to ask you was do you think Donald Trump understood what she was saying? Do you think he has any idea what the Thucydides trap is do you think he's ever heard of this Greek general slash historian? Well, I'm I'm not sure that it's that's that's relevant anyway I think from I mean the important thing to understand is what is she saying here and she is is Is essentially issuing a kind of threat to Trump and and it's it's a it's a warning I mean it's a warning basically about Taiwan That's that's the only issue here. I mean it is it is it has always been the central Chinese issue with these with the US and and you know Trump for all his Bellicosity really likes to get along with these guys So that's what he's saying we can get along we can get along if you somehow If you don't press the Taiwan issue so and and again that interesting thing about Trump who has no real position no real ideology no real background. He doesn't care. Let's just Hat let's just flatter each other in an ideal world. That is what happens in With Donald Trump. So if you're the president of Taiwan and you wake up On Friday after the state visit where she has said to Trump I want you to adhere to the correct position of opposing Taiwan independence What is happening there? It is this is this China getting closer and closer to a potential invasion of Taiwan We know that there are no American aircraft carriers in the South China seas that the mismanagement by the Pentagon Well, just cut cut to this. Yes. I mean is she is she feeling around about how stupid Trump is How unconcerned Trump is how unserious Trump is and what is their advantage there And that's going to be an estimation that they will make in which she is going to go back to China or as I'm sure it's or or already begun And they make essentially essentially they are profiling Donald Trump And they're going to have and they will also have a view about what we where's his Is there a level of dementia here? Is there a level? What's the what's the age? factor. How has that affected Trump? What is does he, and ultimately does he really care about Taiwan? So, and then this other thing is that they're pushing this is, they must understand because it's obvious that you can move Trump as a matter of language. I mean, the entire, the entire Taiwan relationship with Taiwan and with China is all about language, about this, this, these kind of precise words that we use and that is, that defines the situation. And if you, and if you veer from those words, then the situation becomes less defined to someone else, and we don't know whose benefit that was either to China's benefit or to our benefit. But it's, that is all about those words used. Now, with Donald Trump, of course, because he can barely, you know, has a vocabulary of, of 300 words, it, it is, she is trying to suggest to Donald Trump a new language which would then be beneficial to the Chinese. So, so what is the ideal here for she in terms of Taiwan? Because presumably they would rather have Taiwan return voluntarily to the Chinese fold, something which seems highly unlikely. But I'm sure looking at Russia, thinking it could go into, to Ukraine and tie that up in what four or five days is what Putin thought they were going to be able to do four and a half years later, that there's still nowhere near a resolution with Ukraine. And in fact, Moscow got bombed heavily this week. When you talk about language, is there some way that she is trying to appropriate Taiwan without actually having to involve the military? Well, I mean, an ideal world, sure. But I don't really even think that it's, this is sort of all about, about standing at this point. They want to, the stronger, the stronger their position is, is with regard to Taiwan. And we're not even talking about invading or taking over Taiwan. We're just, we're just, we're talking about their relationship to the US's relationship to Taiwan. If, if the US looks less, less firm in its defense of Taiwan, that redounds to the advantage of China and to Xi. So, so in a way, we're not talking about anything here. Everything stays the same. But it is a matter of, it is a matter of how this is represented, how this, how this looks, how, what, what advantage China can claim. And they will. So if you're, if you're Xi and you're going back to talk to your team today, which I'm sure they're spending a weekend debriefing on the trip, what are you saying about Taiwan do you think? Trump doesn't care. Trump's not going to give us any trouble. They've already removed the last remaining aircraft carrier. They've got no munitions left. You know, well, I mean, on, on one hand, it's, yes, what if we attacked Taiwan, what would the Americans do? But that's a war game scenario. I mean, that's a scenario. It's, it's going to be more like what advantage can we get right now? And, um, and that's an advantage which is really a, that's a perceptual advantage, really. And that's what Trump, that's what they can get out of Trump because he doesn't understand the nuances. So China is seeing this as all about nuances. And Trump is a man who, you know, wouldn't know a nuance if it's time. If he was married to one, if he was married to one, I thought that the Chinese to your point about them having, you know, really paid attention to Donald Trump that they probably have been listening to your analysis of Donald Trump and Melania Trump's relationship. And when you saw the two couples walking up the National Archive where Donald Trump took Xi Jinping into the archives, um, you saw the Chinese leader and his wife holding hands. And I will say the Chinese leader doesn't look that much more firm than Donald Trump. He also looked like he was clutching onto his wife's hand to help him both up the steps of the National Archive and down the stairs of the plane when he arrived. But they were clearly symbolizing that they were together as a couple, whereas Melania was walking as far to the red carpet as she possibly could to the edge of it. And at one point, right at the beginning of the visit, Trump actually sort of veered off, I think to his left and she was pushed off the red carpet. But when they walked up the stairs as two couples, Melania and very clearly kept a distance between her and Donald Trump and didn't hold his hand. There's a nice piece in the Times today by Roger Rosenblatt, a long time journalist. I mean, for my entire career, it was now firmly, deeply into his 80s. And it's called the piece as title I want to hold your hand. And it's about him, the joys of still holding his wife's hand, but acknowledging that one of the reasons that they hold each other's hands in public is so not to fall down. I will remember my parents occasionally did that. My mum called me one day and said she'd fall on over in the garden. My father had gone to help her up, given her his hand. And she'd promptly pulled him over by accident. They were both like on the grass, unable to get up anyway. So I'm just saying to Roger Rosenblatt, you want to be careful, because you don't want to go down if someone's holding your hand. I do find it odd the way world leaders hold hands with their spouse. I do think it's peculiar, actually. It's such a strange, almost childish gesture. And you think you're supposed to be among the most powerful people in the world, and you need to hold someone's hand. It's odd, but nevertheless, Melania doesn't want to hold her husband's hand. And Natalie Hart was nowhere to be seen, by the way, this week. I didn't see her at the state dinner, though I did briefly mistake her for Ivanka who looked identical. Well, we can be rest assured she was there somewhere in the background, offering in the background. I mean, she is always there. She is always there. There's not a moment. There's not a circumstance. She is baked in. Well, I'm sure she's printed out all sorts of pictures of him looking statesmen like at the big dinner. What did you think of the guest list of the endless tech CEOs who now seem to swarm Trump at these events? You know, have they no shame? I mean, it's almost incomprehensible. We are so rich that I mean, it's Putin-like. So all of those, all of those Russian oligarchs got fathomlessly rich, but rich beyond all imagination. And yet, we're in the position that they had to suck up to Vladimir Putin. And so I guess it's the same as these guys, fathomlessly rich. And yet they know that it all, at least for the moment, is contingent on Donald Trump. Unless they like him, that is not possible. Well, they may like each other and they may like to hang out with each other at the White House, right? This is all about your cohort. Or they may be paying attention to each other. They may hate each other, but if one goes, then the others have to go. They don't want to be left out. But why? I mean, you have all of this money and all of this power. Why are you still beholden to something? Because if Donald Trump believes the last person, he says, and if Sam Altman whispers in his ear, listen, open AI should be doing government deals, not anthropic. Maybe that gives open AI an advantage. You know, I'm sure it does. I mean, a momentary advantage until someone else speaks in his ear or as long as he remembers what she said to him. Still, nevertheless, do these guys, Bezos, Musk, Zuckerberg, Altman, do they really think that this is going to redound to their credit in the near-term future? I mean, Donald Trump leaves this veil of tears. Either the White House veil of tears or the actual veil of tears fairly soon. Do these guys, or do they not care? I answered my own question. Of course, they don't care. Or is there some part of them that thinks I cannot believe I'm sitting here with the president of the United States at the White House because I grew up in Jeff Bezos' case. I was an adopted boy, I grew up in Florida, and here I am at the fanciest table in the world. I mean, they're no different to anybody else being excited to walk into the White House. I mean, you and I both say it never gets old walking into the White House. And for these guys, it's the same, right? Just because they're wealthy and they've got successful companies doesn't mean they're not excited to be there. Well, they've been there many times before. So you would have, and they are being played, I mean, they're being played here as props. So why they, I mean, I don't see in the end what they get out of this. I mean, yes, maybe they get something out of this this week and they get their pictures in the paper. And these are all, and I mean, I think you can say these are all people who have, who have some serious, serious insecurities, serious personality defects, serious inability to see beyond their own billions at any point in time. I mean, and of course these are the people who are, who, who, I mean, like Donald Trump, who we are dependent on for our, our safety and security and, and the, the, the well being of our country, we're also dependent on these people, absolutely people who clearly we should not be dependent on. So this is a, I think this is a larger story of the creation of an oligarch whose interests are not our own, and that's the signal that they are sending. Well, Melania was sitting next to Elon Musk and I'm a bit disappointed you haven't paid attention to my outfit this morning and noted that I was giving a nod to Melania's bow. I'm wearing a business jacket like Melania was favored recently because I thought, you know what, I'm going to join Imperia, I'm going to join her female network about ownership and empowerment for women. I've spent a lot of time in that space, but sadly I, I found it impossible to join your directed to Melania.com her website where the opening gambit is a Christmas ornament for $90. I went down to Imperia and it's simply a press release saying that she announced it, but there's no way to join it. There's no way to connect with other people, which is what she promised, so I'm coming round to the fact you may have been right that it's all actually meaningless in period. In fact, next week I will, there is no Imperia, there will be no Imperia. I'm being to call the New York Stock Exchange next week and find out if they have some way of helping me join because I feel I would like to become a member. And I have noticed what you're wearing. We match actually. You might have noticed. We do match black and white or you're wearing brown, right? You're wearing brown and I've got, no, I'm wearing black and white. Or you are wearing black. Okay, so you look like a Supreme Court Justice this morning in a cardigan. In a cardigan, a black cardigan looks very good. So yes, anyway, if you want a $90 Christmas ornament, Melania.com, the first lady is selling them. You can get a copy of her book and we'll see. I can't wait for her television series to see if Imperia features heavily as her network, non network network. If anybody else has managed to join, please let me know. Perhaps you can take me as your plus one. I'm just chuckling about the upcoming, the further upcoming Melania documentary series. It's going to be such a pain for it. Paid for it by Jeff Bezos, who was obviously at, at this dinner. Of course, and I've still got my popcorn bucket from her documentary, which I keep to put. Well, what's in there? Actually, nothing's in there, bit like Imperia. Nothing's in there. All right, we must come to the Wall Street Journal story about Kimberly Gilfoyle because it is magnificent. It really is about this thing that we've talked about before, the businessization, the privatization of American diplomacy. We know that over a hundred ambassadorships are still empty. And into that void have come Jared Kushner, Steve Wickoff, and now we've got Kimberly Gilfoyle hustling as fast as she can in Greece and clearly having a very good time. I mean, this entire Kimberly Gilfoyle story, which tracks much of the Trump administration. But it also predates the Trump administration, which is also an interesting thing. But a character of such averis, such uncomplicated averis. I mean, we're going back to a 19th century British novel, Vanity Fair, Becky Sharp, the most famous character in literature without scruples, without morals, without second thoughts, without shame. Without conscience. Yes, gimme, gimme, gimme. And this is the Kimberly Gilfoyle story without there is no subtlety to it. And the interesting thing, of course, is that is that she, she begins her trajectory, her public trajectory as the wife of Gavin Newsom. So we're going to have to come back to that because Gavin Newsom is obviously running for the democratic nomination for, for president or will likely run, run for that. And I'm not sure how he will be able to explain being married to one of the most averishes people in the Trump, in the Trump universe. Now let's understand this. The most one of the most averishes people in a gallery of the most averishes people who have ever walked the earth. Well, you can also track her physical trajectory when she was married to Gavin Newsom and when she was a lawyer in San Francisco, she had a very kind of natural west coast look. And over the years, I mean, when they got divorced, she went to work for Fox News and became a bombshell. I suppose you would describe it as she was a dark Roger Ailes dark head bombshell. Just let me, let me interrupt because as I understand the trajectory, she first came, she, she got out of the marriage and then came to New York. This is before quite somewhat before Fox Fox News. And, and in fact, I knew people at New York magazine, where, where I used to work, women at New York magazine who, who became very friendly with, with, with her. And because she was, you know, New York magazine is quite a, quite a New York liberal-ish place, which she was at that point. And, and then she got this job at Fox News. Roger Ailes hired her because, I mean, Roger had had two interests. He, two primary interests in terms of women that they be, that he consider them hot and that they, and that they were lawyers. For some reason, this was. Well, like Megan Kelly, hot lawyers was his, was his, his particular sexual interest. And that's very specific. I, if there isn't already hot lawyers on only fans, there should be, there definitely should be, or maybe that something Kimberley could do when she finishes being an ambassador, assuming that the Democrats, if they win, don't keep her on. Right. And it was a Trump thing, you know, that, that, you know, during the campaign when Trump was, during all of his trials and his four criminal indictments, and then he had, he had, he would show his, he would show pictures of his lawyers. And, and he would say, you know, my lawyers may, I'm, you know, they're not the smartest, but they're the hottest. So I don't know, maybe this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a taste that, that many men have at any rate Roger ails hired her at, at Fox News, and she instantly became a Fox person. I mean, I remember the, the people at New York Magazine was like, what happened? What happened to people call her KG? And no one, quite no, no, knew what happened to her, except that she saw where the wind was blowing. She saw where the wind was blowing. She may have been ahead of her time and seeing where the wind was blowing. And then she left Fox under, under something of a cloud, right? She's, as far as I can tell, the only woman who has been seriously me, too. Yes. So she was, she sent around, she was a dick pick sender or a dick pick forwarder or, or maybe I don't know what, whatever she was doing. she got in trouble for. Also, she was accused of harassing her assistant, a male assistant and got fired. We should also point out that she had her Anthony Scaramucci moment. And then, of course, she went on to Don Jr. Don Jr. And then she was bested by Bettina Anderson. She was engaged to Don Jr. And of course, who couldn't forget her at the RNC in her, I want to say, red dress, yelling for all she was worth, the best is yet to come. Ladies and gentlemen, leaders and fighters for freedom and liberty and the American dream, the best is yet to come. And then there was, then there was a moment in which she told people that that that Trump, who was then the president, had tried to move on her. So father and son father. Oh my goodness. This is in my books. So I think that this is in my second book. So Kimberly claimed that the president also found her attractive. She did. And the president was fairly vocal in the fact that he may have found her attractive, but he didn't like her. He may not, he may have not liked her because he was rebuffed by her if he was rebuffed by her. Okay. Well, there's a fantastic description in the Wall Street Journal of Trump saying, I have to get her out of here, which is why they made her ambassador. And in fact, when they announced it, Greek news outlets quickly dredged up critical remarks that she'd made of Greece. And actually, I'm going to quote here, as a Fox news co-host during Europe's debt crisis in 2015, she said that Greeks needed to be trained like when a dog pees on the rug. And she says, it doesn't matter if you make great yoga. I don't care. And president Trump told people he had offered gilful the ambassador ship for his son's sake saying, I had to get her out of here. A White House official obviously denies that the president said that. The subtext of this article in the journal is that she has been promoting the career of of somebody who actually the journal was unable to actually describe the nature of this person's career. But she has pushed them into a significant negotiating role among among in the efforts to get the countries, the as a set of European countries to decrease their reliance on Russian oil and to use US, US natural gas, I think. Christos Marafazos, who appears to be ubiquitous wherever Kimberley goes, he goes. People assumed, according to the piece that he was her chief of staff. In fact, he's a lobbyist for a Greek construction company that's managed to hustle its way into the new energy situation, given the problems with Russian oil. And as president Trump called out. And then that company, they seem to imply, has a dubious sale of bona fides when it comes to both oil and their position in this negotiation. Well, Christos himself has dubious bona fidees. At some point, I mean, he was born or lives in was based in Maryland now seems to be spending a lot of time in Greece with his his new colleague, I guess is the is the right word. But at one point he was, you know, distributing produce to restaurants. So he's also got a somewhat checkered career. I think it's fair to say he's emerged as a lobbyist. He's whipped up earnings for himself of at least half a million dollars and is helping Kimberley negotiate. There's a great bit here where it says that Greek officials are very happy that their country, which has often been overlooked in Washington, now has someone who's got close proximity to the Trump family. But they're also fearful of getting on her bad side, who wouldn't be. And in March, I'm going to quote here from the piece, in March, at a dinner in Athens, attended by Greek and US officials, Gilfoil got into an argument with Greece's energy minister, Stavros Papastavru in front of other guests, referring to the impending collapse of the Romanian government. Gilfoil told the group we can do that to any country we want. We can do that here. And then the conversation obviously became heated with the Greek energy minister saying actually the US couldn't replace the government of Greece. The government of Greece was actually elected by the people. She's obviously throwing her weight around. I don't think you can appreciate what a nightmare Kimberley Gilfoil is. I mean, it's like those things. And part of the a thematic part of the Trump administration is the inability to appreciate exactly how how extreme how bad how how how outside of all expectations and imagination so much is. So you can't appreciate it's impossible to appreciate how unprepared Trump is when he goes into absolutely significant meetings meetings on which so much depends. He's completely unprepared. And it's impossible to defend to it's impossible to understand how someone like in this instance Kimberley Gilfoil, but we can go down the list of other things in the Trump administration, how how how crazy they are, how how how unacceptable in any kind of your civilized company they would be. Well, there's also very interesting paragraph in the piece that reminds us that when Kimberley was engaged to Donald Trump, she immediately started setting about trying to set up businesses and she pursued a line of business ventures including hair care and fragrances that she called floor demaga. Yep, floor demaga. So if you want to smell like mega, you could have bought her product champagne ventures with names such as 1776 Liberté and Liberty Dreams and then a pet pharmaceutical service called petriot vet get it petriot vet. Anyway, those trademarks have unsurprisingly since been discontinued. So you can the lesson here is that you can have you can have if not anything you can have really a lot if you absolutely have no scruples, no restraints, no shame, no, no, no, no yen for basic respectability at all. I guess and there's one moment as well where Kimberley is back in DC and she's got Christos Matafatzos somewhat unfortunate name perhaps. And the president calls mountains says he's a very good looking guy. So he has a sense that this is an unusually close working relationship. Let's just say that I'm sure they would deny they were having an affair, but it's an unusually close working relationship is what the Wall Street Journal piece is hinting at here. Anyway, run don't walk to read it because it really is fun. And let's just again, Kimberly Gilfoyle is not going to go away because we have the Gavin Newsome chapter of this which will make a return as he runs for president. Well, and it might put Gavin Newsome, I mean, can you imagine Gavin Newsome must have read this thing last night when it when it drops. I'm sure he got a heads up that it was coming. And he and Jen Jennifer Newsome his wife and the mother of his four children must have been just sitting, you know, mouth a gap reading this piece. But he might find himself worthy to be elected as the Democrat president, having to fire his ex-wife, having to remove her. Or do you think he would say, you know, what she's got such hustle we need her? Let's leave her. Well, I think I think it could be also from her point of view. I mean, she apparently left him because his career was not proceeding fast enough. And if she had stayed with him, she might be have ended up as the first lady. It's so fascinating. It's so fascinating. So she goes from Gavin Newsome over a couple of other people. And I think I remember telling you that I had run into her at a dinner party once in Connecticut where she was with a guy. And I said, oh, what does your partner do? And she said he is the best selling push salesman on the north east of America. When was this? Uh, this would have been, I guess, maybe eight years ago, 10 years ago. Fantastic. Yeah. Uh, anyway, that was that was a moment. And, um, You know, she, she went from Newson to Donald Trump Jr. got bumped from Donald Trump Jr. and then Newson may ascend the Trumps altogether. Oh yeah, yeah, be careful what you wish for, Michael, be careful what you wish for. Um, why don't we segue to the media here from Kimberley Gilfoil, segue to the media and then out of the media. Um, but let's segue back into the media. Is CNN banned or not banned? I'm a little confused. I'm very confused because Timothy Kelly, uh, Trump appointed judge, uh, you know, told the White House, ordered the White House to reinstate the press passes of CNN, MS now, and Politico said that the White House had essentially trampled on their constitutional rights, uh, but CNN then I think announced today that it wasn't invited. It was their pool day today and they weren't invited on Trump's trip to a football game. I believe in Tennessee. On the plane. So they weren't invited on the plane. Yeah. Um, so I'm assuming that the pool ban continues. And then we got fits and starts of coverage from she's visit. So it, it's going to, I mean, this is, I mean, what's going to, we know what's going to happen here. Nothing is going to happen here. And CNN will be back in place eventually and all of the other networks will be back in, in, in place, but Trump will, will push this out. So he's got another news cycle out of bashing CNN. Now what I'm wondering about is when CNN is on the verge and I think this will take place in the next couple of weeks of being owned by a Trump ally. He will be, CNN will be owned by the Ellison family, um, Larry Ellison and his son, David Ellison, who have taken over, uh, Paramount and CBS and who are now on the verge, uh, of, and, and I think ever, the way has been cleared so that they will, they will imminently close on the deal to take over Warner Brothers Discovery, which is, is, uh, owns CNN. So what happens at that point? Now what happens in terms of Trump's regard for CNN and also what happens internally at CNN? Now this is, the, this deal has been held up by the attorney general of the state of California. Um, and, Rob Bonty and 13 other AGs actually wasn't on his own. He was, he was taking the lead because obviously it's a California business. Right. But I mean, he's the pivotal player there and he is the one who basically folded, um, and he folded last week, week before, before last. And, and, you know, with some minor kind of concessions among the concessions is that there would be an editor choral board, I think, for, um, for CNN to help preserve CNN's independence. Now anybody who's followed the media industry for any, any period of time knows that these kinds of, of, of, of, of boards or these kinds of concessions and, and soft agreements are nothing. They just go away. This, they were kind of all pioneered by Rupert Murdoch who would agree to them and then instantly ignore them. Well, do you remember Facebook put in a board, which made almost no sense. It was an international board that was supposed to adjudicate on issues, but of course all these issues arise in real time. And you can't assemble a board fast enough to get them to make a decision if you're, if you're covering a big news event or if there's something going on, a board is kind of almost pointless in that situation. Yeah. Yeah. And in the Murdoch situation, he would just literally ignore them. It, it, and in his case, and that was with the Times of London, it had, as they say, the force of law. He had to agree with the, I mean, that was an agreement he made with the government for that about it. Didn't, it didn't, um, it meant nothing. So that will be the situation, of course, at CNN. And, um, and I think we're all, I mean, we will begin to see in the, in the, in the relatively near future, what happens at, at, at, at, at CNN. What, what do you think is going to happen at CNN? Because obviously you've got Barry Weiss who founded the new press as sort of lively right wing newsletter. Uh, she gets catapulted into, uh, to be the editor in chief of CBS news. She's had a very rough ride, uh, changing things around there. Uh, is she going to be the editor in chief of CNN too? I think that hasn't been, that's not clear yet. Um, so, and I don't think, I don't know, I, what, what happens to the people within CNN? Well, I think that they're, I think the, um, the latest I heard was that the, they needed, if they were going to merge CBS and CNN, which would surely make sense from a business point of view, uh, 10,000 jobs would need to go. Uh, yeah. I mean, I, I don't know if that is, you know, if, I mean, the merger then would depend, the merger of those two organizations would depend. I would assume on someone, on, on their being one, one, one leader of both organizations. And I'm, I'm not sure that that's, that's clear yet. Well, certainly, Kara Swisher, uh, a fellow podcaster has been, uh, saying that she doesn't want to stay at CNN anymore. She is, she has no interesting, uh, she has no interest work for, uh, David, Alice CNN, she on CNN, Kara Swisher is on CNN. She has, uh, she does, she did a show about longevity, uh, she did a series on longevity. And I've been on a show that she does call table of five, which is, uh, I throw on Saturday morning, or she was temporary host, I think for it. I mean, which is the other issue, yeah, which is the other issue of CNN, nobody watches it. Um, and, I mean, so this is one of the other ironies of this, of, of Trump and this, um, in this, um, in the, the current conflict with, with CNN and several other networks is that they are getting more attention now than they have in, for almost anything that they, that they do. I mean, this is, these are, these are audiences, which have, which have dramatically shrunk over the last, the last 10 years are pretty much all the rise of social media. Yes. Yeah, exactly, all television audiences have shrunk, but I think it's fair to say that the president's pretty obsessed with Caitlin Collins. And certainly people know who Anderson Cooper is. Yeah, they, well, they know, they know who, and I mean, and partly they know, I mean, Anderson Cooper has been doing this for an, an extremely long time, but he has, and he has left CBS. He was one of those people who, uh, who, who left CBS and, um, because it had been taken over. Now he's at CNN and it is being taken over. So how will he react to that? We don't, we don't know. And Caitlin Collins has become famous because Trump attacks her. Mm-hmm. But he attacks her because, uh, hey, I think he finds a very attractive. He's always saying, you're a very pretty young woman. Why don't you ever smile? You never smile. Of course she does smile. I know Caitlin. She smiles plenty. Just not when she's trying to elicit answers for her questions. Well, it would be interesting to see what happens and whether or not Barry White stays as editor in chief for both titles. I find it hard to believe that Mark Thompson, uh, who's running CNN, would work with Barry White. I mean, he was former director general of the BBC. He was the CEO of the New York Times. I just find it highly unlikely. He would work with Barry White's. I think his, his paycheck is very large, his merger tip. His merger incentive. So I think that he could, um, care less at this point. Well, interesting. And of course there are two Hollywood memoirs, uh, out this week. We've got Bob Chepex memoir out explaining why he thinks he got fired from Disney as the CEO and replaced by his former boss Bob Eiger. And we've got Arya Manuel's memoir. Bob, uh, Chepex memoir seemed to have been, uh, there was a bit of a spoiler story about it in the New York Times, which I don't know if you read by Barnes, Brooks Barnes. I did read it. I mean, is your, are you thinking that this was, uh, this was a Disney ploy to get Barnes to write about about this, uh, well, what I'm assuming is that there was some sort of excerpt and the book was embargoed and the Times jumped the embargo, because it seemed very much a Disney, it seemed to come from a Disney angle that this was Bob Chepex, explaining that the system had basically moved against him while he was trying to deal with COVID. So, you found this a more favorable story, I guess, a more favorable story to the Disney perspective. I read it. Yeah, so it is coming from the Disney perspective. I read it. I don't know. I mean, I thought it was actually probably good for Chapeck in the book. It means that, you know, that thing, when somebody is breaking embargoes, that means it's newsworthy. And that means it's, you know, it kind of builds some heat. But I don't, I don't know. I mean, the thing I found curious about this book, and I haven't read the book yet, because I don't have an advance in broken embargo copy of the book. But is that Bob Chapeck would be surprised by what happened to him. This happens to virtually everybody in these companies. And the fact that, that, that he did get to be the CEO for a few minutes, it is kind of like, well, this shouldn't have happened to me. It really happened. There's only one guy, if that guy, often there isn't, often there are no survivors in, and at the Disney company, there, Bob Eiger has been a long time survivor, and, but that's always been nip and tuck for him. The CEO before Bob Eiger at Disney Michael Eisner was not a survivor. The CEO before him was not a survivor. You know, why should, why should Bob Chapeck be different than anyone else? You know, this is the, what you get for your hundreds of millions of dollars, or, and you get to write a book about it, and you get to write book, billions of dollars. What you get for that is, well, humiliation. Do you think anybody will read the book? I know. What about Ari Emmanuel's book? Do you think anybody cares? Well, I don't, I don't know, I mean, Ari, um, Ari, Ari, yes, and Ari, who I know very well, and who I've worked with, worked with before, has literally been on every podcast talk show, outlet. There is nowhere, nowhere that Ari hasn't been. It's very easy for him to be on all of these, particularly shows, because he has represented all of the people on these shows. All that mean that this book sells, you know, I'm not sure, I mean, first thing, you know, you know, even the role of agent, the role of media has so changed. So the idea of media moguls with Bob Chapeck sort of, I guess, hoped he would be. And Ari Emmanuel is a super agent. This is, these roles have so changed. So it's been so diluted, been so rendered so much less interesting than that I don't, you know, I don't know, is this a, is this a story that people are attracted to? I don't know, I kind of doubt it. Well, Ari Emmanuel is certainly a very colorful character. He's more colorful to read about than I think Bob Chapeck. Bob Chapeck had the extreme misfortune of taking over what a month before COVID hit and he'd run the Disney parks and then, of course, all the parks shut down. So I don't know if anybody could have maneuvered out of that. And of course, Bob Iger, who ousted him to come back for a second go at the CEO job, then himself got eventually ousted after a less than glorious second innings, I think you could say. How are we going to read these books? I'm definitely going to read both of them. I'm going to skin them. As you say, I never read a book, I skin them. I'm going to skin them for the interesting bits because there's always padding in these books. I will. I will have to, I mean, so Ari's book was written by a very co-written or ghost written by a very famous ghost writer. Yeah, JR Meringue. I tell you what I have read, I have read JR Meringue's memoir, which is very good. Very good. It's about how he basically grew up in a bar in Long Island and of course he wrote the book Spare, Prince Harry's book, which went on to be, I think, the, well, certainly when it launched, it became the best-selling memoir of all time. Well we'll see if Ariim annuals memoir becomes the best-selling of all time somehow. Well, I'm sure he will, I'm sure he will tell people it's the best-selling memoir. He was briefly, I briefly worked with him and I found him terrifying. Every time he called, I would get a knot in my stomach and I thought, I'm sure this isn't the way that you're supposed to feel when your agent is calling. Yeah, I mean, I speak to Ari now and then he calls me somehow always just before I'm going to sleep. Of course. And then it's kind of like a burst of energy, a burst of venom, a burst of something of which you don't get the opportunity to even respond to. He does the burst and he says, "Love you" and then hangs up and then you can't get the sleep for the next several hours. Well because he's dyslexic as well, he does that thing where he just calls all the time and he has people and actually when I was looking for his contacts in my book the other day, I realized I had like seven different email addresses for his various assistants because there's always an Ari assistant. They don't have separate names. They're just like assistant to Ari, Ari's assistant, Ari assistant, you know, each email is slightly different but he's fantastically energetic and entertaining and he always has a party, the weekend of the Oscars, pre the Oscars, which I've been to a couple of times at his house and it's just packed with stars, packed with stars. I remember watching Ben Affleck playing pool in the in the basement and he was the least famous person in the room. Ari bought my book Fire and Fury and there was a there was a moment when Fire and Fury came out. You mean he bought the rights to your book? Because we all bought your book Fire and Fury but you mean Ari bought it differently? Yes. He bought it for somewhat more money than then you did yes and he he was going to represent the book. Ari is not my agent but he is always telling me he is my agent and then at that at that moment it became actually actually advantageous. I thought for him to in fact be my agent and and he and and so we were trying to set that up and he agreed to be to be my agent but then he called back 10 minutes later and said I don't want to be your agent I want to buy the book and and that was like my my my lawyer was part of this discussion that was like what what do we do and so my lawyer named a monster price for the book and said we would do the deal if the money was in the bank in 24 hours without any paperwork and that sounds very Russian of you and the money was in the bank in 24 hours without any paperwork there was subsequently paperwork and and that was it and then and then the movie never got made. So what's happened to the rights did he buy the rights in perpetuity perhaps you could buy them back? No they lapse after seven it has been seven years they have lapsed. Okay so Michael it's time it's time to do fire and fury. Well you know you might have noticed that it is not so easy to get Donald Trump projects off the ground. Well we should we should wait till after the midterms and then see if people are perhaps you could go to the new David Allison massive media company and suggest that they open up all kinds of avenues for well I think I'm part of their part of their deal is they have to make 30 movies right they have to make 30 movies so maybe fire and fury could be one of them and it will be when I'm showing their independence. Are you fit you think? I think Ari should get on the case Ari if you're listening get on the case. Well I can say is that whenever he called I would immediately get a knot in my stomach and feel terrified to pick and I'll call him back I'll call him back and then of course he would have rolled on and probably forgotten whatever he wanted to talk to me about but he was the model for the brilliant Jeremy Piven as Ari golden entourage a series I absolutely loved and when I arrived at Mary Claire and they asked me what kind of an assistant I wanted I wanted Lloyd who played Ari gold slash Ari Emmanuel's assistant who was a continually harassed assistant but always got the job done in the end. I think you could have been a cutthroat agent. I would love to have been a gutter agent. Never dawned on me, but I love journalism journalism is so much more fun I would have always crumpled at the last point of negotiation, I think when people say they love journalism, I I'm skeptical really I've always enjoyed Anyone who uses the word journalism No for goodness sake you're a journalist forever. No, I'm a writer. I'm a writer Whatever the point is you're writing about interesting people journalism is about writing to I don't know I think you you miss that turn in the road cut throat agent Cut throat agent. Well, maybe it's not too late. Probably is too late. Nobody needs an agent anymore. They just produce their own content They produce their own content Michael. We've covered a lot of ground. You have the rest of the weekend I can hear your children in the background. How did the visit to the pumpkin patch go last week? Oh, very well. Lots a lot of they brought back Bushels of apples. Oh, fun bushels of apples. That's a very country thing and are you in the middle of the North Easter? Yes, no, the rain last night was was torrential and there are limbs of trees all over our property down And what about your roof as you're at 18 29, we're very dry Yes, you're very dry. Well, that's the key thing I live on the top floor of a loft building in Manhattan and when it's this rainy I'm always terrified that this is the moment when the leaks the leaks start So you mean to say you live in the penthouse? I don't think of it as a penthouse. I don't think of it as a penthouse It's it's funny. I don't people don't use that word as often as they do when I first came to New York in the 1970s people were always oh come to my penthouse Yeah, it's a very 70s word isn't it? Maybe because it was associated with the magazine or something But I never used the word penthouse. I just said it's the top floor Anyway, anyway, we will be back God willing on Tuesday if you haven't been blown away like Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz by the Norrista keep your feet on the ground, please and Who knows what will have happened in I think Tennessee where Trump is going and it's what is it 38 days to the midterms 38 days to the midterms. So we'll be tracking where he's going to spend his next month And the poor Republican candidates are saying you don't need to come here stay away Yeah, no, and let's get to that because the ground is really shifting on a day-by-day basis and shifting away from Donald Trump of course And if anybody knows how I can join in period. I've got the business suit So just please let me know see you on Tuesday Thank you one and all Ryan John Rachel Heather Neil thank you. So the good news is we have so many bee-beast tier members now There are too many names to read out and we really appreciate your support