352. This Helmet BOOSTS Brain Function (Photobiomodulation)

The information provided in this podcast episode is for entertainment purposes and is not medical advice. If you have any questions about your health, contact a medical professional. This content is strictly the opinions of Lucas Owen and is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The references, claims and scientific information linked to any products are only applicable to those listeners who are based in the US. If you are outside the US, this information does not apply to you. It is not intended to provide medical advice or to take the place of medical advice or treatment from a personal physician. All viewers of this content are advised to consult with their doctors or qualified health professionals regarding specific health questions. Thank you for listening to the Boost Your Biology podcast. My name is Lucas Owen. I uncover the most cutting-edge health information on the planet, ranging from hormones, nutrition, supplementation, fat loss, biohacking, longevity, wellness and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Boost Your Biology podcast. Hello ladies and gentlemen and welcome back to the Boost Your Biology podcast. I'm your host Lucas Owen and today we have a very special guest joining me in the studio who is the scientific advisor for neuronic and also host of the Hello Brain podcast. And so in today's discussion I'm here with Ramona Von Leden. Ramona, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Awesome Ramona. Well today we're actually talking about this particular product here. So let's introduce this particular neuronic PBM helmet. Did you want to just share with my listeners a little bit about like how did you even get involved in this technology? Yeah absolutely. So first of all for listeners who maybe weren't looking on the video but I know you do yours on YouTube. You were just holding up the neuronic light helmet which is a near infrared photo biomodulation use at BBM not everybody's going to know that acronym. Photo biomodulation helmet and it is used to support your brain health and I got involved with the company about 9 10 months ago. I actually when I was in grad school doing my PhD work in neuroscience I did some research in the photo biomodulation area on the impact of using light to decrease inflammation after injury. And then as you know careers do I took a couple of interesting turns along the way and went through some other things but I was looking for some new projects to get involved with and through a good friend of mine who owns the brain evasion network. I heard about neuronic and brain evasion network is this really cool marketplace of neuro tech. And she was like oh you should really talk to the guys over brain evasion network and that's Liam and Marvin who owned the company and I got pretty fascinated because when I was working on light therapy frankly it just wasn't as accessible as it is now there weren't these products you know 10 15 years ago that somebody could buy and using the home that were this elegant you know there was some very rudimentary maybe by a red light panel you do something like that and not to say that those don't have their purposes. Because they do and we can certainly talk about that but first of all the idea of really focusing on the brain and how light can actually impact the brain in a positive way was was really unique and quite elegant in its simplicity. So I reached out to the company and told them that I was really impressed with what they did and here we are 10 months later and I get to help guide the research directions on the team as well as do cool things like this share our scientific story with with people like yourself. Yeah it's phenomenal I think my listeners are going to be really curious to know more about like I'm sure many of them already have like a red light device sitting around in their house like as I've got a lot of biohuckers that love to tune into the to my to my podcast which is awesome. Now let's start out with like the point of differentiation right let's just straight off the back go straight into it what separates and what makes this different to like your typical you know red light panel that most people have. Absolutely well the very simplest difference is the wavelength itself so a red light panel is red light typically that's going to be in the 600 to 800 900 range of wavelength nanometers. The neuronic light is a wavelength that 10 or 1064 so that's a wavelength that's actually not red light it's near infrared light. And it's not visible right correct it is not visible to the human eye it is visible if you use like a wildlife camera and in fact we have a really cool video that we made with one of our other scientific advisers Lisa lasco who's an Australian researcher who showed basically putting the helmet on and turning it on and then using a wildlife camera to actually show how much you're seeing of the glow coming out of the helmet. Because if you otherwise you you just don't know right you can't see it with the eye so the there's more than just the color that differentiates those wavelengths of course red light like you might have in a red light panel very very good for your skin very good for more surface level cells. Now both both of these wavelengths of light are going to affect the mitochondria in your body and really drive an increase in blood flow and help to support ATP production in the mitochondria the difference is what sells your access. So with the red light again it's more superficial and this has to do with just the absorption of the light by different parts of your tissue 1064 or 1070 nanometers is actually going to penetrate deeper and down into the brain itself. So you're getting into the brain tissue it's a little bit more absorbed by water and water dense tissues so it's really going to sink down get into the brain and impact the mitochondria and the blood flow in the brain rather than at the surface level in the skin. So what I'm understanding there Ramona is it's all about the the wavelength of the light itself and the penetration degree of the actual wavelength so whether or not actually hits certain target cells or tissues is what determines the effectiveness. Yeah, absolutely I actually I had a fun conversation just a couple days ago a friend of mine was I was asking about the helmet and he said you know my my partner has one of those red light face masks like is that what I should should I be putting that on every night to help my brain. And I was like no not exactly I was like no not to say again the red light is really really great for your skin there's a reason that it's been used in the aesthetics for forever but it's not going to have huge impacts on your function. So like so I can understand this is the skull how do they understand or determine whether or not certain frequencies of light or wavelengths of light could actually penetrate the skull. Yeah, well there's a couple different ways one one this is just what we know about the depth of penetration of these wavelengths of how deep they get in again what tissue they're going to be absorbed by so the wave like can go through the skull and then it's going to be absorbed by some of these tissues that are deeper and those more water dense cells. For our team specifically we've done some really we actually my research team this morning was just talking about some of our initial experiments where our head of research will he like got a pig skull and was literally like shining it you know trying things out making sure that it's getting through the actual skull itself. You just went to the book butcher shop and was like please I'll take one big skull thank you very much and we were like man those were really fun but that's you know it's sort of those initial experiments like that that are going to answer those questions but it's all based on what we know about different wavelengths there how much they penetrate and how much they scatter because scatter can also have a lot to do with how deeply or how far a wavelength of light can go. Because when I think about like how we as like biohackers are using or leveraging light right now like first things first I don't know about yourself from owner you might have a protocol as soon as you wake up in the morning but when I get up in the morning within 30 minutes if the sun's not up then i'm getting really out of like bright artificial like studio lights into my eyes within 30 minutes and that's obviously to help wake me up from the eyes specifically. But then it's like at night time all of the lights in my apartment they go red so it's all red around me around the apartment this this is this is a different level though this is looking at like that 1064 1070 mm nanometers of wavelength of light that actually. Based off the literature and I had a how to look at what Nicole sent through the number of studies was just ridiculous i was blown away. Yeah so well there's a couple of things there look is one is you know you mentioned the red light that you have in your house and that's wonderful i'm so glad to hear that you're doing that but it's. This this all plays into circadian rhythms and what how we're using the the photo the light from the night excuse me from the neuronic light is a little bit different from what we're talking about with like the circadian rhythms and as you mentioned like first thing when you wake up your body naturally wants. sunlight. That's that's really what your body needs to get alert to get awake. And as you said, it's kind of hard sometimes to get up and it's on a sunny day. And but even if you go outside and it's not sunny, you're still getting some penetration of that light through the clouds and it's still super vital to just regulating your circadian rhythms. In the evening, again, you mentioned red light. Red light is going to help to shift your brain waves and also like your general nervous system into a more restful state. So it's going to help with winding down. A lot of times you talk about blue lights. I don't know about you. I'm currently wearing blue light, locking glasses. I always wear blue light walking glasses, one of my computer, because that blue light kind of does the opposite. The blue light is helping to make you more alert, make you more awake. And while that's fine in certain circumstances, obviously if you're doing this into your evening, you don't want that kind of penetration into your eyes because it will affect your circadian rhythms and often leads to not being able to sleep as well, or not being able to fall asleep. So neuronic, actually, one thing we like to say is this doesn't detract from what you should be doing with your natural light. However, it can supplement it in a really positive way. So you still want to get some natural light throughout your day. But let's say that you are someone who doesn't have the opportunity to spend hours of your day outdoors, then maybe you get your 10 to 15 minutes while you're brushing your teeth, drinking your coffee, go sit on your porch, go walk outside on your balcony, just go outside for 10 minutes. And then the neuronic light can actually help to sort of supplement that and increase that blood flow, increase oxygenation by getting some deeper penetration into the brain, helping to wake up those cells. And then we have some different protocols. I know that you mentioned we were going to talk about your experience with the helmet so far. But we've planned the protocols, so there's certain protocols that are just the light by itself at kind of 100% full power. And then there's some that are more the design to work with your brain waves. So again, we have a piece protocol, which is using a short, a low intensity of light, but pulsed with 10 hertz, which basically again, shifts and encourages your brain wave to move more into a restful state. So getting you ready for bed versus a focus or a balanced protocol where we use different pulses and different combinations of intensities to encourage different brain states. Yeah, so like what you mentioned before around the experimentation phase, I'm very early in the experimented experimentation phase with this. You've had your helmet one week, is that right? I've only had it for a year, like about a week, so I'm very, very early. But I do know that some people can get pretty good results pretty soon, like pretty early on, depending upon how how much in a deficit they are. Obviously, like if they've got, like let's say somebody has had severe concussion or some sort of like really damaging microglial activation, they've got glutamate firing everywhere and all that sort of stuff. Thanks, touch wood, you know, like my brain's pretty in good shape. So like if you were to look at the demographic or the main user base, who would you say are the main user base or demographic for the products so far? Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And I'm glad you brought up microglial because that is my bread of butter. I love microglial. It's literally my thesis in grad school. Oh, wow. But to answer first your question about the demographic of the users, I think probably the first group that really became a big group for us were more older people. People who are maybe feeling the effects of age, getting a little bit of brain fog or cognitive slowing, maybe some memory issues, who are often looking for ways that they can help support their brain as natural aging processes slow us down. And then honestly, we've seen a ton of questions like time, but head of another demographic that's pulled out for us is people who are professional athletes or athletes of some kind looking for an performance answer. Because as we all know, if you and it doesn't have to be an athletics, but it could be anything that you are doing that requires your focus, your concentration. Like, you want to feel your best. You want to perform at your best. And so I remember right when I first joined the team, our founder Liam was at this huge BMX events in Canada. And was like, you know, he's talking to some of the like most famous cyclists of the mountain bikers in the entire world. And they're using it because maybe they have had a traumatic brain injury and maybe had some brain fog or found themselves feeling a little bit slow or behind. And this is helping them feel more energized as they go into their sport. Just talk us through Ramona in terms of the the initial research. Like, I'm really curious to know more about like this topic of photo biomodulation. From what I understand, there's different areas of research depending upon the wavelength. And so it's all about clustering different protocols based under like wavelength. Can you talk to my audience about what what some really exciting research that you've come across in that sort of 1070 NM wavelength? Yeah. And actually this will play back into the mention of microglia. So this has not been done in humans. Let me preface that first. But I do think that it indicates something very interesting that needs to be explored further in humans. So microglia for your audience, maybe they know it, maybe they don't. Microglia are our inflammatory cells in the nervous system. It's not just the brain. It's the spinal cord. It's everything that's part of your nervous system of the central nervous system. Microglia, they're a good thing, right? They inflammation is important. If you have an injury, you need to remove waste. As we go throughout our day, it's very normal for us to build up waste products as we use up energy in our body and our brain. So microglia's job is to get rid of that waste. However, in the case of an injury, a lot of times microglia will actually get sort of overactive and you'll have some chronic inflammation that settles in in different regions. That happens often in things like traumatic brain injury or in the case of cognitive decline or dementia, specifically Alzheimer's disease, where you have a lot of waste and the microglia essentially can't keep up. There's also some elements of glucose metabolism playing into the ability for the brain to clear waste. So there's some interesting animal research that showed that 1064 wavelength will actually help to decrease beta-amolade plaques. So it's helping to clear out the waste from the brain, which to me tells me that it's helping microglia supporting those inflammatory cells to be able to be more effective in their job. And that makes sense because again, really what any wavelength of light is doing is providing an energy source for your brain. So to a cell that perhaps is having a harder time getting energy and getting nutrients, getting that sort of kickstart of energy from the light is going to help to let it do its job and get a little bit back to its optimal function. So that's probably to me, I think that's the coolest thing is that there's a potential for something as simple as light to impact dementia is really, really amazing and fascinating. Again, big asterisk that that's only been done in animal studies so far. We do not have the same proof in human studies yet. Honestly, that's a that we believe is largely due to a need to really focus on those symmetry. The light therapy space, as you noticed from a Nicole Centerver, there are thousands of papers that have been written on different types of light therapy. And this, honestly, light therapy has been researched for decades. What's really happening now is because before it was like, well, we're just trying all these different wavelengths and we're putting them into whether it's with the skin or whether it's brain or whether it's in some other aspects of we're trying to to work through things. It's now we're getting a little bit more into, okay, what are the doses? What are the exact wavelengths? How much light power do you actually need to make a clinical difference? Because that's the huge question. It's great to know that it could impact these cells, but in an animal model, you're looking at a skull that is micro, you know, millimeters thin and it's so much easier to penetrate. Does that really transfer over to human? Unsure. So we really need to focus on that. Other areas that are really cool and promising, I think are in the sort of psychological health area, depression, anxiety, brain fog. Anything where you're feeling a bit of a bit like mood disorders, there's some very interesting data that shows that this can help with that as well. Yet what I'm interested in is like going back to that microglial sort of hyper activation that occurs because I've the reason why I know quite a lot about that as well is because I've seen a lot of supplements because I talk a lot about supplements on my channel and like looking at therapeutic doses of certain vitamins and things and every time I'd see like a neuro protective effect of a certain intervention, like I'd say, let's say it's a high dose vitamin B1 for example. Oftentimes when I dig a little bit deeper into the mechanism of that what does neuro protection actually mean, then I'm seeing if I go that layer deeper it's like oh it actually suppresses microglial hyperactivation. So I'm like I'm seeing that mechanism and I'm thinking hang on this this PBM like photo biomodulation has an effect on the same pathway which for me I think is it's pretty cool. because I know even in depressive disorders that there is a pretty well-known trait of those that are feeling like they're depressed basically they can have there is an immune component to it like and that I mean There's a low grade chronic inflammation Yeah, I do think it's important to recognize that with photobiobonculation it's not that we're suppressing the microglue itself we're suppressing pro-inflammatory activity and this can be a little bit confusing in that microglia actually can be both pro-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory so the the light is helping microglia so I like to tell it in pictures because this just I think is so cool so microglia when they're hanging out kind of look like a hands like they're at rest they have these really long processes which are essentially scanning the area around them and then when there is something for them to respond to they ball up and they get kind of angry and bushy and then they go and they eat up whatever they need to do that would be like a very typical pro-inflammatory state with a microglia they release pro-inflammatory factors like TNFLF I don't want beta I'll you know we can get into the cytokines but essentially pro-inflammatory related markers if we want this to be in a more anti-inflammatory it doesn't mean the microglia is not activating they're kind of like I can't make my hand smaller so the maybe this isn't the best idea but essentially like you're back to that kind of more ramified shape where you have longer processes but they're still active so they're still moving and they're releasing neurotrophic factors that are actually anti-inflammatory so they're doing something that's helping to decrease the inflammatory environment until you know everything's kind of backed down to normal so that's kind of the really cool thing is that the light is not just suppressing microglia activity it's actually helping encourage the more anti-inflammatory more restorative reparative processes yeah that actually makes a lot more sense and then also the second part to that is you mentioned blood flow the blood flow aspect like what do we know about blood flow in the brain is it the lack of blood flow in certain parts that results in cognitive decline like what is it about blood flow yeah well that's so well first of all let's acknowledge that blood is actually toxic to the brain so when we say blood flow to the brain it's actually the blood that surrounds and then sort of the blood the blood-brain barrier is where all the nutrients that your blood is carrying and all the oxygen all that will go into the brain into the cerebral spinal fluid but while leaving the the blood behind right it's like a filter that like keeps the blood out but it lets all the nutrients in I think a lot of people a lot of people would forget that like you just assume that you want to keep the blood in the brain but now you're right yeah no quite the opposite yeah right exactly and so it's actually very very interesting and this is where it gets into kind of that that aspect so when what and I'm going to use someone who's aging as an example here because I think it's a a fairly it's one that'll land for a lot of people as we age obviously it is normal and natural for things to slow down that includes sort of our own ability to remove waste to process things better our metabolism slows which is a natural part of life so during sleep for example when we sleep our neurons actually shrink and our brain gets a little bit smaller and then the cerebral spinal fluid has room to move around and it does what's called the it's the glimphatic system it's kind of like the lymphatic drainage for the brain so it's like doing a big dishwasher cycle on your brain it's pulling all of the waste out flushing it out what as we get older that process gets less efficient and so by oxygenating and by increasing blood flow to the brain with something like photobion modulation we're supporting the activity of the glimphatic system it's ability to keep flushing through the brain and kind of carrying that waste out so that's one example of how it can help and if you do that and it doesn't have to be something that's it's not like only wall you're wearing the helmet that that happens this increase in blood flow and oxygenation to your tissue is going to help throughout the day right it's kind of like you you you were talking about supplements you don't need like it's not only helping you when you take the supplement right you have your maybe you take an immunity shot in the morning or you have your collagen or you have your creatine and it's going to work with your system throughout the day so in the same way um light is supplementing and helping to boost your mitochondrial function again that's that is your cellular energy source so that your brain can get access to more energy and the brain i mean this is where really why it's so important for for light to be focused on the brain is our brain is one of the most energy tapping regions of our body it takes almost 20% of our energy just to run our brain i always always like to go back to that stat because it just literally it makes sense the days that i'm like really deeply focusing and like in like in a deep flow state and i'm like pushing my brain to its limits the day those the days where i like i literally feel like i need to eat a lot more food because i'm like 100% the happiest you will ever be is like if you've actually been studying and focusing really hard on something you're like how could it be this hungry i've sat in the same place for like six hours but it's yeah i mean your brain just takes all of your energy so so that's where if you have something that's a little bit off and your energy stores aren't able to be processed or you're not as if you're not functioning at full capacity and your brain can't get access to the energy it's it's going to struggle because it really needs it. Let's go deeper into some of the protocols because like i mean i'm really curious to hear about how you guys came up with these different sequences these these different protocols you mentioned there's one that's like a pulse pulsing pulsing of the light then another one that's like just standard light. So how did you guys come up with the protocols because like that's a arcan that would be a really tricky task. Yeah and i wish that i had been a part of the team when we actually like built the original protocols i will i can't take credit for that but i will say all of this is based on again from the literature because there is there is research that suggests certain wavelengths or certain pulses will help to encourage certain brain states so as i mentioned with the piece protocol that we have that one is to encourage restful peaceful nervous system down regulation so that uses one we're not using a high intensity light. Yes it is still going to help to oxygenate the brain but we're not trying to get your brain awake we're trying to help it slow down and it's at a low pulse wave and then and just so i understand that reminder so like because i'm trying to think yeah so like let's say when we're outside in the sun for example like the sun is obviously emitting light let's say they let's say we're not wearing a hat i'm just assuming that the wave length of the sun is nowhere near because i always thought that what the sun was like the full spectrum it's got oh it is it is yeah so you yes so there's really there is no substitute for sunlight sunlight has that full spectrum of light that being said this is where it's more like can we supplement it and give you like kind of a dose of it especially when because of reality as almost no one is going to be outside all day long. Thank you. But it makes me wonder though like for individuals that let's say they don't have access to this and they want some of the brain health benefits of light then what if they spent 10 minutes of their head in the sun at like me day like totally that gets some benefits. 100% or as you already mentioned honestly the doesn't have to be at midday um morning might be the most important time again just because of the circadian rhythm aspect to it that's going to help naturally bring the body up it's the sunlight will help to get blood flowing your body responds to that in a lot of ways it's it's not just the contact of the sunlight with the head but it's also with your eyes it's also with all of that so um and and there is something interesting here which we've talked a lot about on our our side is hair blocks light so actually your forehead is one of the best places to get light in so you maybe don't want to go out with you know you don't want to hat when you're in your sunlight um you want to allow some some light to penetrate you know everybody talks about the vitamin D of going outside but there's a lot more than just the vitamin D that's doing that um the you know obviously you're not pulsing when you're out in the light and that's actually something that eronic does this unique amongst there's we're not the only helmet on the market but you know we're not going to pretend that but we are the only ones that are using these kind of pulsed protocols trying to take what we know from areas of brain science like neurofeedback where and uh and sort of these areas that have looked at trying to match brain states with wavelengths and then also what we know about light therapy and combine them together um so again I mentioned there's a protocol called the focus protocol that one would use um it's a a pulse width that we believe is going to more stimulate and encourage gamma brain wave activity which is going to be more for when you want to focus when you want that energy level to be high. I'm going to try that I'm actually going to try that focus setting this afternoon because typical 2 to 4 p.m. for me because I've been up since 5 30 and I've done a lot like 2 to 4 o'clock is usually when there's a little bit of a dip dip in focus for me. So do you think that would be a good time to leverage that protocol? Absolutely, 100 percent. I give it a shot. It's like you know as you said you've only had it for a few days. We do always say like glow is a great one and you know from our clinical populations you've tried it even if they never use anything but glow which for your listeners glow is 100 percent power for 10 minutes, no pulsing, you're just getting infrared light. You'll see impacts on other areas that work that will you'll get that effect but you have these opportunities to try these other protocols and see if they kind of work for you there as well. You know what would make me you know I just thought of an idea for neuronic and I'm not sure if you've already got this but have you guys thought about doing a some sort of pre and post test to analyze not not a subjective questionnaire not a quiz not a not like one of those IQ tests but I mean like some sort of tests where you can evaluate this is pre this is how your brain was functioning pre because I know it's impossible to measure microglia like what are you going to do with usually you can't cut open the brain like that's too hard is there anything like that you've thought about to show people this is actually what it's doing yeah it's something where we are in progress with actually so there's two main ways at the moment that you would kind of track pre and post most people are familiar with the the name EEGs those are going to be looking at brain activity brain waves and you can have them run tests and you can kind of look at a baseline and look at after I what we are looking at is something that's a little bit more kind of a hot topic now which is called f mirrors and f mirrors actually looks at blood flow and it looks at the amount of blood it the getting to the brain and in different regions of the brain so again while it's not let's run we're not getting blood inside the brain does that does that stand for something f near stands for something it does I would be lying if I knew exactly what it's for functional near infrared spectroscopy right right okay yeah so our again I mentioned our hot of research will will is in the middle of his PhD right now and he is this is what he's doing is building an f mirrors and pbm device to get so that we can look at this and really see basically if f mirrors measure measures blood oxygenation in the cortex so it can look at specific in specific parts of the brain regions well you're looking at the whole brain so you're going to see what different regions are getting oxygenation and throughout the brain so it's using that to help you detect neural activity and that and it's very very very highly sensitive so it's being used more and more for studying cognitive social as well as motor functions and sort of like the robots in areas so that's our goal is to actually make a pbm f nearest device so that we can't answer that question and really demonstrate for people and I think that's something that's pretty unique about neuronic as a company and I one reason I was so excited to work with the team is neuronic doesn't just want to make a device and have it get out there and be so I'm in certainly of course they want to sell units but they've you know our researchers like they're working on their PhDs they're putting in the efforts to really move the field forward and really help us so that we know how light is impacting the brain more and more and I do want to point out for those listening in there is actually going to be a link and a discount code if you guys do want to check it out and try it out and the discount code is Lucas 10 for anyone listening who actually wants to give it a shot maybe you want to try it for yourself maybe you want to try it for your parents you know you know maybe they've started suffering from a little bit of cognitive decline I know after I'm done with this Ramona well after a few months on this I'm planning on giving it to my mum I think she has a lot worse memory than you know cognition than than than me like she's been complaining of you know typical like memory loss and you know that sort of stuff so I'm actually planning on giving it to her and and letting her run a fool along like proper three month protocol as well I love that I think we should probably gonna end up doing though is buying one for her you're not gonna want to give yours up I use like twice a day no joke I absolutely like I yeah how do you do how do you structure yours because I would say you're pretty up to you're you're quite optimized already so like how does someone like you do it is already quite optimized then yeah and I mean I've sold this story a few times on podcast I wasn't quite sure what to expect from mine I will tell you I do I did buy one for my father I did buy one for my mother I have one for myself so what I like it for I use the globe protocol on the morning when I'm like making coffee first you know I first thing I do in the morning is I go out and I take my dog for a walk so I get my sunlight and then I put my helmet on when I get back and I make my coffee and and just give my brain a boost to get started and settle in for the day and then I like to use it right before bed on the piece protocol what I'm brushing my teeth and it's great because it is super portable I you know you can throw the battery back in your pocket it's run off an app so it's not something where you have to like sit in a corner and wait for it to be done sometimes I'm in my bed using it but a lot of times while I'm brushing my teeth I have it on and I found that you know I don't I didn't necessarily have a hard time sleeping but I found I fell asleep much faster pretty quickly after starting using this regularly which was not something I was expecting and was kind of like wow that's a pleasant surprise so now it's it's very much a habit and I go like if I get into bed and I haven't done it and I like start to turn the light off and like oh no I gotta do my my piece protocol because I just think it helps me wind down a little bit more effectively and that get better quality sleep I was just thinking of a like a bit of an all-out barhackers sleep sanctuary stack and protocol I'm just gonna share like the full kit so ready for this it's yeah where blue light blocker glasses three hours before bedtime which is you know I do that every night then it's obviously do your magnesium and your and your like your teas and your calming teas and stuff but then when you get into the bedroom you've got ready for this you've got mouth tape you've got nasal dilators you've got earplugs you've got a acupressure mat so the acupressure mat is something that I've recently started trying have you ever used those I'm not that I'm not familiar with that I cannot believe how effective that is I'm falling asleep on it and within 10 minutes I'm like knocked out it's insane okay interesting it's just like it's just like lying on nails basically like it just it induces endorphin release and yeah it actually I wasn't expecting it to do that so quickly but the first couple of nights were like ridiculous and then it's like the whilst you're lying on that with your mouth tape on and your and your I'm asked you got this on your head and the on the piece on the piece setting and then you've got a little bit like a mummified cocoon at this point but but you will feel amazing and then and then you've got an eight-sleep matriot I'm just basically describing my bedroom right now the eight-sleep eight-sleep matrice which is a heating cooling mattress that that regulates the temperature of your bed the bed is slightly inclined because that helps with glimphatic drainage because inclined therapy helps with glimphatic drainage and then a weighted blanket which personally I respond really well to having a weighted blanket and that's that's your sleep stack wait so you're sleeping on top of nails with weighted blanket on top of that so you're being pushed into your nails no the the acupressure mat is for the floor and then I that's probably the biggest drawback is that I want hard surface for the nails to you know what I mean because if it's on your mattress it's not hard enough I see I see so you don't sleep on it you use it for a few minutes before I use it to like knock me out and then I literally like crawl into into bed well this sounds incredible I think you should have like sleep parties wherever it goes in this protocol and then just like has the best night of sleep of their life that sounds awesome I would I want an invite let me know when I come over for a sleep party fly fly halfway around the world to do it speaking of biomhacker so I I'm based in Austin Texas you know home of day-vastry and biomhacker so nice very very familiar with that space yeah like like I take a thing or two from everyone like I'm just when it comes to these sort of interventions I look at this as like most of us have like a whoop or an orring like but I look at this is this can easily be an extension to those devices like because you've got different settings for different occasions you got a focus setting you've got a relaxation setting and like just based off I want people to anyone listening to this podcast to just do some research on photo, like just type in photo, bio modulation, and then insert keyword, whatever you want, like, I don't know, brain. Like, what are some other areas you think people would be like, wow, this is incredible. Yeah, I think, well, okay. So first of all, I do want to agree with you that, you know, everything we're talking about today, what really, in essence, a lot of our biohacking is, is finding ways to harness energies and harness things that support our bodies to do what they do best. Right? And to really give them the space to recover and heal and function at their optimal level. So something like the helmet, as I've said before, we don't replace the sunlight, and there's actually perhaps an argument to be said that like we need natural sunlight to almost primus, to be able to get the biggest benefit out of something like this helmet. But these little tools, especially ones like you're talking about, I mean, I also, I'm now tape is like also perhaps not even more life changing than the light up helmet for sleep. You know, these little ways that we can change our environment to encourage and support our nervous system to be calm, because that's often what is the biggest challenge throughout our day is, is allowing ourselves to slow down and allowing ourselves to really like, you know, be able to take rest so that we can function the best we can. Some of the, wow, it's hard because it has been looked at in such a wide variety of areas. Now, I mentioned earlier, sort of why sort of the 600 nanometer red light again very, very, very good for skin and I have a friend who he's got a podcast as well. It's got the beautifully broken podcast. He does a lot in the biohackerspace as well. He has a full red light panel and he's out in around a helmet and what he'll do, I mean, her first 10, 10 minutes of the day, he dances is trying to his red light panel with an around a helmet on right. So he's getting both the benefits of the red light for the whole body because you're lighting up your cells and the skin. I mean, that's the biggest organ of our body. It's really important to support our skin to support those cells to be able to absorb light efficiency efficiently. But again, if we want to get deeper into different tissues, you get down deeper. There are other wavelengths that have been used successfully in the brain space 1064 is not the only one by any means. 880 is probably the most commonly studied wavelength in brain. Have you seen those devices that go up the nose like the lights. So those those use 880 and there's arguments to be made for why one is good and one is the other's good. I don't I wouldn't say one is better than the other. They just hit the brain in a different way. Obviously with the ones that go up your nose, the target is then to bypass the blood brain barrier and because the news is the only part of our body where we can directly enter the brain without going through the blood brain barrier. That's why like intranasal like so I was snort cocaine because it gets to the brain like that. It doesn't it doesn't get processed by the body in any way. It's going directly into the brain. So that's the idea there by having that intranasal entrance for the light that you're adding an element of this that you're not having to go through the skull. You're not having to use a higher dose to get there, but those helmets also have the helmet as well. So it's it's all just different ways to try to access the brain and provide the dose that is the most effective. And I'll be honest, I think people are often going to have an individual response. So you, you know, one person might really like the way an 80 feels someone else might like 1064. It's there's very much an element of like you have to kind of try and see what works for you. 80 generally is going to be a little bit more superficial on the tissue. So that's it's think cortex. So really good for prefrontal cortex. You know, a very important cognitive area for the brain and for our executive function. Whereas, but if you think about when you get deeper into the tissue, now we're talking mid brain structures, hippocampus memory centers, that would be the goal of these deeper penetrating cells. So just different different access points is a kind of one way to think about it. Because I was thinking about the design. And I'm thinking like I would have thought that the front because you said the front. Is that the prefrontal cortex is at the front of the brain right. So that's responsible for executive functioning, which is alert nurse, like attention alertness. Like, let's say somebody sitting at their desk, when they're, let's say they're writing during Google docs, whatever they're writing an article, which part of the brain, would you say that that that part of the brain is like the dominant, like the part of the brain that's most metabolic active. It's going to be very metabolically active. The prefrontal cortex has a lot to do with like who are our sense of self and are like our personality is is largely controlled here, which is why the, you know, there's always jokes about like when you're a teenager and your prefrontal cortex hasn't fully developed yet. That like we're kind of stupid. So that's going to be very active. Yes. However, if you're writing an article, there's probably elements that are coming in of like knowledge and pieces that you have that are stored in memory centers, there's going to be elements of like the motions that are involved in the article. So I would say the prefrontal cortex is probably in generally general one of the most active regions of the brain, one of the most energy consuming regions of the brain for sure. So very important to support it. The helmet and you've kind of picked it up and put it a couple of times. It does have that little wheel on it to adjust the sizing on the helmet, which ideally you do want it to fit relatively snugly on your head and it does have that on the front, the little bumper to sit, you know, tightly against your forehead because you do want that. And that's the goal we think and I think this is something also that neuronic does a little differently than some of the other helmets in the space is the full brain and not targeted brain regions. A lot of the devices will just you can pick a different region to target. And there's uses for that, especially if you're in like a clinical setting, or maybe you really want to focus on one specific region on the brain. And if you're in a hospital for home use, I think more is better go get the get the whole head and give it a shot of early. Do you know how badly I wish I had this when I was in when I was in Dubai actually met up with Dave Aspery in person and I was on I was actually on his podcast in person. And what happened was about 30 about one hour before the podcast, you're not going to believe what I did in the kitchen accidentally. I opened a cupboard above and I got I got up so quick that I smashed my like the front of my forehead. Oh, no, oh, like into the corner of the cupboard. I remember rocking up to meet with Dave on his podcast and I remember feeling like I'd forgotten everything I felt like I was so clumsy and silly and I'd lost my I literally felt like I'd lost my sense of self. And I felt like everything was slower. So I think I actually must have done I must have done something to myself with that. It's just a minor concussion. But I couldn't call the couldn't call the podcast off because he traveled all the way from America to get there. Sure. Yeah. No, that's that's that's that's your let you oh man, that's so funny. His his big biohacking event is in what right about one month here in here in Austin. I think so. Yeah. And the whole neuronic team we're going to be there. Yes, I wish I was he did actually if I was if I wasn't in Australia, I'd be there. It's just I'm so far away. That's a tough plain flight. I understand. But yeah, I don't know man, that must most of it. I will say try this if our founder Liam. He said that where he he kind of kind of we've talked with this little bit. It's interesting how people. And I think that's a very different response to energy where some people you have them put the helmet on and they swear that they can feel the energy. Personally, I don't feel it. I just know that I like the way I feel afterwards. I can feel by the way, I can feel like. Okay. I can feel I can feel like slight heat. Is that okay? Yeah. Sure. Like I can't obviously I can't say the light. I am human, by the way. I can't say the light. I can feel it. I can feel it. Yeah. I do wonder. I mean, I have a lot of hair. So I wonder if that might be why I don't really. Right. Where is my friend Freddie who I mentioned who dances in front of his light red light panel. He can feel. So he he's like, oh, yeah, I can feel it. I can feel my brain getting juiced up. And. It. But it is it's interesting because I think that. For Liam, he he was kind of in the same vote where he said, oh, I don't really like. When I get headaches. If I put it on, the head it goes away. That's cool. That's super cool. So I think there's, you know, for for everybody. You know, trying it out in different scenarios. Like you said, maybe this afternoon when you hit that kind of low. That you normally maybe feel a little bit selfish. Put it on. Like the focus protocol brings you back up. I know what can give me a headache. So, for example, I'm pretty sensitive to certain foods. And like if I start like starch, like potato starch, for example, I know. It's very specific, but it's starchy foods can cause like a delayed, it's probably like an IGE reaction where it's delayed and I get a headache the next day. So let's, we could actually test that out. I don't want to, like, I don't like getting a headache for an experiment. I think just way into the next time that you happen to eat some such foods and when you have the headache just put it on. Yeah, yeah. You know, we come across searches often enough. I'm sure you'll have a moment where perhaps you have to start you get a little bit of a kick. For sure. Okay. So in terms of like, I mean, you've been in the company for quite some time now, in terms of what people have said about their experience, like has there been any stories that have just sort of like hit home for you where you're like, wow, that is, that is crazy. Yeah, there definitely has. And I think one thing that's been really interesting about DRotic, I think, by and large, we have fairly positive responses. People really like the device. They really like how it integrates into their life. But we were talking, I was with one of our other research leads, who she handles a lot of the more like institutional partnerships. So if we were pairing with university or a clinic that has a lot going on. And we were asking them about their experience. They kind of ran a trial where they had, you know, again, this is an older, older population. And they said they had them using it for basically three months, as you were talking about using it with your mother for like a three month protocol. And they said for the first month, they just had them do glow once a day. Just hit it, glow. And that at the end of that month, you know, the people who were using it, they said they felt like they maybe their sleep was a little bit better, but they weren't really feeling major differences. At the end of the second month, their family members were like, no, I notice a difference. And these are again, our people who were in the elderly, maybe they're having a little bit of memory recall issues. And they're like, no, they're able to find words faster or like the family members were noticing a difference. We're sometimes that's harder for us to notice in ourselves. And I thought that was really cool because I think again, that's something that like when you're working out, like you might not notice that day to day, like change in your body, but then somebody wasn't seeing you in like two months is like, holy crap, like you look amazing. And to hear that from family members, to me, that was a very powerful thing to hear. Yeah, as we've got, I think one of our Instagram campaigns right now is we have a pro tennis player, who's a woman who uses it before every match and she loves it, she's swear as buy it. So I think it's very cool to see how people are integrating it into both general health and wellness and also seeing how it can boost their performance and the things that they love to do. Has anyone ever done some sort of like IQ, or some sort of like Cambridge brain science test? Like brain first. We haven't done that yet. Because I know it's a subjective, sorry. Yeah. Wait, is that a subjective test? The, no, they're objective tests. Like I'm just trying to, I don't know that one very well. Where, where would the, the benefit like be, I know the F, F near F N I R thing that your, was it Liam is working on? Oh, well, yeah, the looking at sort of oxygenation of the tissue. Yeah. Um, where, where would the benefit like? I'm trying to think of something that people can do as a pre and post to like, evaluate effectiveness. Um, ooh, a pre and post you can do maybe. That's what, honestly, actually, things you can do with your wearables, it may not be cognitive function tests are a little bit more challenging because usually those have to be administered in some way by like a clinician or someone who's kind of standardizing it because there's a lot of our own bias and something like that. Um, but there are, there are a couple of things like on our app, you can, we have a couple of surveys that would help you track over time. So you're answering, answering some basic questions about like how you're feeling, if you're feeling tired, if you're feeling with arctic, if you're feeling fatigued, it, how your sleep was. Um, and that, that might be it or even something as simple as looking at like a, your wearable metrics and seeing if you're sleep, like, are you getting more REM sleep? Are you staying asleep with less interruptions? Like, things like that because sleep can often be a really huge indicator of cognitive health, um, because it has such a big impact on how we feel every day and how we recover. Um, like awake tests are going to be a little bit more challenging. EEG would be an option if you had access to an EEG. There's, um, there are some home, you know, options, but, uh, but if you had a clinic where maybe, you know, you could go in and do a pre-tasty EEG and then come back a week later and then do another EEG, that would be a good way, um, to, to kind of track your progress. Yeah. Yep. No, that's cool. Well, yeah, I'm definitely going to continue playing around with some of the other, some of the other protocols, like, um, the focus setting in the afternoon. Um, but I think, yeah, something like this, I see it as, it's just an extension. To people's already, I guess, like, you know, supplement stacks if they're eating well, you know, like, finally enough, actually, Ramona, I actually put together, there's going to be a YouTube video coming out after this, which is going to be my, um, like theoretical, not necessarily a theoretical, but it's sort of like a, like, how to supercharge the effectiveness of like methylene blue. A lot of these, like, co-ans, I'm Q 10 tree teen. I've actually put together like, uh, like a, like a mitochondrial superhuman protocol. Oh, wow. That's awesome. Yeah. So that's that. And then add this to that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's what I, that's what I'm going to be sharing. This is the cherry on top for that. I think you, you provide all the nutrients and then, like, really open up the cells and let mud it all just, um, meld. Uh, that would be really cool. Yeah. I'm not, you know, as I said, for something for your listeners, you think about if this is something that they're considering, if they think this might be something they'd like, again, there's a lot to be said for portability. Um, it's a very easy to use device at home. It, um, also the, you know, they'll get their discount, but also we, as a company, we really believe in our products. We have a 90 day 100% money back guarantee. Like, it's very, you know, try it. That's, that's the best way to find out if it works for you. Um, and, but it, it interweeds so easily into your day and it's, it's just, you know, it's, it's a, it's a nice supplement. It's, it's late. It's great. Yeah. Well, it's oftentimes the neglected area of health, which is like people think about food, sleep, nutrition, like, sorry, nutrition, sleep, exercise, stress, but they don't think of light. And light is that neglected element or that neglected component. Um, so this, this really does help with that. But, Ramona has been an absolute pleasure, like, having you on the podcast here today. Was there any final, like, final messages or words you wanted to share to my listeners before we wrap up? Um, let's see. Uh, well, first of all, thank you. This has been so much fun. Yeah. And thank you. I know that it's early for you. It's late for me, but this has been just such a cool connection and cool conversation. Um, I think, you know, if somebody's interested in light, and as you said, it, it's, it is a little bit the, the forgotten piece where we are as human beings, we, our bodies are, we are regulated by light, right? We work with the cycle of the sun and our modern world doesn't necessarily support that. And so, um, if there's something I would, I would suggest to the listeners to think about it's, it's how can you be more in touch with those natural rhythms? I think that's going to help balance your body and boost your biology. Uh, exactly. The name of the podcast. Um, yeah. So that, that would be the big thing to take home for me. Yep. No, that's, that's really good. In fact, you're the first guest that's ever used the title of my podcast. Yes. Seenlessly. That's awesome. That's actually perfect. Um, yeah. And I smashed it, smashed it. Well, thanks so much, Ramona. And as another reminder for anyone listening that perhaps you want to try it out yourself. Again, there will be a link in the podcast show notes and also the discount code Lucas10, which you can definitely apply it. Check out. Oh, um, one final thing too. I'm depending on when this podcast comes out. We are currently working on for some of us just interested in learning about like therapy a little bit more. We're actually, uh, we have a, we're working on a, we've done one version of it. We're updating it for everyone, a master class on light therapy. So really it'll give you that, that background, understand what the research has said about it, how you can use it. We'll have a version for clinicians. We'll have the version for end users. So for somebody who's interested in learning more, go to the neuronic.online, um, check out our website, check out our research page, check out our resources, and we offer a lot there. Yeah, fantastic. I make sure to leave that linked in the, in the show notes as well. But um, yeah, thanks so much for Mona. It was, um, it was a really fun, a really fun chat. And um, for those of you who have tuned in today, please do leave this podcast a five star review. And also please do share it around to your friends and family. This is, um, this is information, health info that can benefit every single one of us, um, on planet earth. Um, so Thanks for tuning in. I look forward to seeing you all on the next episode.